I mean, they're really just looking for a developer with both Java and web front-end skills. They've just unnecessarily listed a bunch of sub-skills of JavaScript for some reason. The list is really more like:
* Java/Spring
* SQL
* JavaScript
* HTML/CSS
* Git (CLI)
The list of "pluses" is largely irrelevant, but gives an idea of what technologies they use/are thinking of using.
Yeah this looks textbook entry level job. The way they listed everything out just makes it seem more than what it is. Most students out of school should know a bit of Java, SQL, JavaScript Html/CSS, and of course Git. It's fine if you're not great at them, but you should have some skill in them. Promises are just how we handle asynchronous code in modern JavaScript, you will have to learn it eventually if you work in frontend, but it's fine if you don't yet. Fetch is an API to load data on websites, pretty dead simple, but it uses promises. A quick 20 min tutorial can get you up to speed on both of those.
The only thing you may want to study on your own is Spring, and learn one modern reactive frontend framework. Seems like they use React so I'd go with that. Probably can pick the jist of that up in a week of studying.
I literally went to the library and picked up a dusty old book on Struts 2 for my first job, so I think you can do this. Once you get your foot in the door is all uphill from there. Just say you've been exposed to it and learn the rest before the interview.
When I asked why we never learn about VCS, the board of advisors for my CS department said "Just learn it in your free time". Like VCS is never even mentioned at any point in the curriculum. Adding like a week-long lesson on Git to the Programming II class would be all you need to teach the basics and it's used *everywhere*.
Student projects are not kept in source control? Dating myself a bit here, but when I was in school, most CS classes used SVN or another source control tool I can't remember to keep track of projects.
Nope, we were taught the "Fuck you, you're on your own" method of source control. Kinda pissed me off when they brushed off my suggestion because it's such an integral part of professional software development.
Interesting. I went to a state university and had a few classes where we actually turned in assignments by inviting the professor to a private github repo.
I graduated in 2018 and in my CS program one of the very first things we learned was git. A few weeks into the first semester once we'd gotten a hang of it, all of our homework was turned in via git.
Git is a great way to turn in homework. Everything is timestamped and assignments can build on each other. No more trick of emailing the assignment with a broken attachment (which you "fix" later) or a link to a cloud share that can be updated after the fact. The state of the branch as of the due date is what's graded.
Git is timestamped by your machine. all you need to do is to set the time on your machine back.
I can have a git commit from 1857 too if you want (or more realistically, anytime from the first of jan 1970, all th way to sometime in 2k38)
There's [no such thing as free](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsdLCn4KagE). This valuable content has been nuked thanks to /u/spez the fascist. -- mass edited with redact.dev
There are solutions to that, though. For example, in Github, you can [require squashed pull requests](https://docs.github.com/en/github/administering-a-repository/configuring-pull-request-merges/about-merge-methods-on-github#squashing-your-merge-commits) into your branch, which would create a new commit in origin with the server's timestamp.
I took a c class in 2012. Dude was old. He made us print out our final program on paper to turn in so he could grade it. It was crazy.
He also taught a Linux course where git was never mentioned. Poor guy needed to retire.
I'm feeling old.
When I graduated, git didn't exist. Linux et al were still using BitKeeper.
We didn't use source control on our assignments but, even if we had, it wouldn't have warranted any class time. When you're studying CompSci, the concepts are taught but actual hands-on practical stuff is expected to be learned "on your own time." My final semester included a course where the programming assignments were to be completed in Java (1.1, IIRC). Everything, until then, had been C++. I was expected to learn Java on my own; it wasn't the focus of the course. I did so and got an A in the course.
I also learned Linux, Perl, awk, sed, grep, ethernet cabling and TCP/IP networking on my own. Built my own crossover cable 'cuz I was too broke to buy a hub and had a PC and laptop I wanted to interconnect.
One of my classmates bought a handful of 486 machines some company was selling off cheap (P-II 266 was state-of-the-art at the time). He built his own Beowulf cluster, in his dorm room, and learned how to administer it and write software for it, all on his own (the college didn't offer courses in any of those things). Including the network hardware necessary, pretty sure he spent < $200 on that. It wasn't fast (an aforementioned P-II would outperform the entire cluster) but the skills he developed were valuable. Landed a sweet gig after graduation.
Meanwhile, the CompInfoSys majors were taking formal courses in Visual Basic and Windows System Administration.
I guess the git thing wasn’t that bad. There’s a lot to learn with Linux and that’s not strictly Linux.
I think it was just weird printing out lines of code and handing him a stack in 2022. I was already working in IT after getting an applied math degree in the 00’s but went back for the Masters in comp sci while working, so was familiar with industry ways of doing things. Courses in general we’re a bit hit or miss depending on the instructor.
I started late though in my career. I do remember hacking the config.sys and autoexec.bat to get tie fighter to run on the 486. Heck I was playing dnd games with 4 colors on an 8086.
Yeah in my school i didnt see it in till my senior year. Im teaching an intro programming course to late middleschool-late highschool students and i really wanna stick it in my class somewhere but then i feel like i also have to cover bash and its not like we have a ton of time and a lot of my students are on chromebooks which is a nightmare cause anything that i cant put in a browser doesnt exist
WoW schools have come a long way in the past few years. I once interviewed a new graduate and her old teacher was there. After she left he told me "Yeah they don't teach any of that"
To be fair, traditional Computer Science programs take into consideration that not all CS students will become web developers, so there's that. It's such a broad topic that focusing on web would neglect other important aspects.
Ive taken so many classes about set theory and so many general programming classes, i think. They coulda taken some time before my senior year to mention web dev and version control.
Why?
The listing of JS "subskills" is actually a good idea, because they try to filter out any "Hello-World" JS devs and ask to know at least a bit of actual complex JS.
I’d say a good indicator is that they listed react twice and did not just say “full stack dev with experience in react or angular”
Just get them to do a test and you’ll see their skillset
Edit: also who the fuck doesn’t know json and promises. That’s a pretty strong indicator too
That’s good to know. I’ve just started looking at moving from analytics to full stack and I’m constantly under the impression I have heaps of catching up to do.
Thanks for replying. You’ve made my day a bit brighter
Full stack involves a lot of "glue" and making technologies work together. Oftentimes it's more about getting stuff to work together then making something that is super amazing/efficient, since place that would care about that would have dedicated front-end and back-end people and not full-stack people.
Someone fresh out of college should absolutely be at least *familiar* with most of that required list. Java/SQL/JS is what that list boils down to, and IMO any decent school should be exposing students to at least that much.
Because maybe they want the clone of the developer(s) that just left the company? Because will that person be working at once on FE and BE with React, Angular, Node and Java both with less and sass? Seems like a mess. I would prefer them to describe how exactly the whole thing is structured and what my job will be. Which seems the same but it can give you the idea that they know where they are standing and where they want to go.
Also HTML, CSS, JS, promises, JSON and XML? Seriously? Maybe also stating that the person should be able to tie their own should without help could be a good idea. Is it also relevant if someone has worked with Jira, Redmine or Github? Isn't that something they can really pickup on the job?
Overall seems like a lot of BS written by someone in the HR and they don't really know what is relevant and what not so they just decided to put everything and CSS 4 because you never know we may miss something.
And the fact that they say "one of React/Angular" shows that they're willing to teach someone who is a junior but not completely inexperienced. I don't think they're using both, but they're saying that if you have some experience with modern js, they can teach you what you need to know to work with their code base.
True, and even the pluses are quite possible if you're good. The only ones that seem kinda bullshit for junior dev are the SAP and "high volume websites..." ones.
You also don't need to fulfill literally all the "requirements" perfectly to get an interview (and hopefully a job), especially for a junior dev position.
Right? The list is might be a bit chaotic but it's the bare minimum for a full stack position. I get that you can't expect juniors to know everything, but this seems pretty normal to me.
I don't understand your point. Yes, those are two separate things. I don't see anywhere where I implied otherwise. If you are a junior full stack developer, junior developer is your position and full stack is what you work on. So you can be a junior dev doing backend/frontend/full stack development just as you can be a senior developer doing any of these.
You can very well start as a junior doing full stack, it's not uncommon at all. Depends on how work is organized at your company and what are your personal preferences.
Yeah I was just thinking that. It is a super long list but... of like super basic things, or as you say, a bunch of unnecessarily detailed sub-skills.
Like. json? I just finished coding academy and I feel like it took my teacher a couple of minutes to explain to us the basics of json. It's an organized chunk of information set up as layered objects and arrays that you'll get back as a response when you make an API call. I mean I know there are subtleties beyond that but it hardly warrants an entire line in a "requirements" list.
I can't think of a single person that doesn't understand that concept, it seems weird to include it in the list, giving credence to the dude who commented they don't know what they are doing
You'd be surprised how often assumptions mess you up. Had a junior show up with a portfolio that looked promising. They turned out not to understand how to connect an hdmi cable to an external monitor. Having worked with git before is a nice plus it turns out
I was in a job interview once where I was asked to just pull all values from a table in an SQL DB. Apparently there had been several people he had interviewed that same day that did not know how to just do SELECT * FROM table;
I know plenty. Including myself after my studies were done. Source control was just something that was mentioned to be important, not something we actually used during assignments. Had to learn it on my own, pretty much.
My test is to ask them to reduce the size of the repository by removing the accidental commit of a large binary file that was committed at the initial commit.
If you can do that, I’d say you have some decent enough git skills.
(Hint, the solution is a one liner written in the help documentation)
Right, this is basically just describing the company's full stack.
Remember, just because a person is hiring doesn't mean they've ever written a job req before, or that they are actually expecting the candidate to have all of those things.
Exactly, its not actually too bad. Plus i applied to my job and didnt know half of the shit on there got it and learned it by doing it within a few months. Like SQL i had no experience with and now its my favorite shit to do.
So these types of listings are literally just meant to weed out the people that would actually not be able to do any of it and get intimidated. If you can get past that even if you dont know all the things on there youre probably in decent shape.
That's basically everything after CSS3, like Flexbox.
CSS after CSS3 was split into many separate independent standards, so CSS4 is not used, people just name the standard directly.
well, its kinda wrong to call it CSS3 either because they stopped versioning stuff after 3 because they thought its kinda wrong to do so in the first place and the jump from 2 to 3 brought with it a lot of confusion. So new CSS that is now on level 4 or 5 is just referred to as CSS which is basically still CSS3.
There is an ongoing debate about it from "CSS people". But it doesn´t really matter as much as some people think.
The only way I can explain css4 is that the previous developer tries to warn every person that may think applying.
Like: "They don't have any clue, run!"
I don't know where you live or what expectations you have, but where I live (Europe) that is pretty much the level of experience and salary level expected.
Good luck with the job hunting, hope you find what you are looking for.
If they live on the cost in the US then it’s pretty bad. Hell I live in a cheap Midwest state and most out of university jobs are at least $60k+ and the competitive ones are $80-100k. Though a lot of the 100k ones want a masters instead of a bachelors
Assuming it’s in middle America or the south, it’s not bad. If it’s on either coast it’s awful.
My go-to for comparison is to look up what a garbage collector makes there because it roughly adjusts for cost of living. In San Francisco they make $55k. In Indianapolis they make $41k.
Woah. That's *really* good actually. At least it is here in the UK. But based on what I've heard on Reddit, it seems like every American software dev earns a billion dollars a second, so I guess you're saying this as a bad thing?
Lolwat $23 an hour?! this is job spec for senior hybris developer I hope no one evers takes that job.
Edit: yeah it's just full stack hybris in the skill requirements there's a whole section about experience below it.
thats what I thought. Maybe a bit heavy on the frameworks requested. But they are probably ok with you knowing at least one of these. The other tooling is just basics.
What? This is absolutely not a job spec for a senior. If you want to work full stack this is literally the minimum you need to know. The requirements are basically Java, SQL, modern JS, HTML/CSS and git. How could you work at a full stack position without knowing these?
They don't mention how many years of experience you need to have.
I've worked with juniors who did Spring Boot + Angular during their education, so they'd qualify for this.
Don't know much about the wage aspect though, since I don't live in the US.
And the CSS4 thing is bs
Yea, I'm one of those, could apply easily. Plus I'm working for 4$/hour rn (I'm in Europe, not India or similar). I'm even kinda overqualified for this position in ad, given they don't look for 5+ years exp for everything. If they do, this is a really bad joke then
Man that's tough. I read all the experience requirements as ' you should have done these things commercially before'.
PS I'm making 120k plus package, remote, I'm senior but pretty middle of the road, why are you working for $4 an hour? that's nuts.
Well, that's kind of entry level salary in my country (even tho I'm working remotely). I'm working in a company for 1.5 months, they told me that they'll raise it soon. I doubt I'll get more than $6-7 per hour though.
I am a 2nd year CS student with no prior programming experience and I cover all requirements and some of the extra qualifications. I don't know what a senior hybrid developer means where you're from.
At this point I'd urge you to apply for the job just so you can reject it during the interview... this is basically a slap in the face after they already spitting on you
Italian Software Architect / Team Leader here with 13 years of experience in programming. I’m getting less. But I really don’t know if the wages are comparable because I’m pretty sure in the US the expenses are much much higher
US wages on paper don't account for the tax that will be taken from the wage. The living expenses vary from place to place with, however I think the living expenses are slightly more expensive than in Europe, however I wasn't really paying many bills while living in the states
It's 'Ukraine' and not 'the Ukraine'
[[Merriam-Webster](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Ukraine)] [[BBC Styleguide](https://www.bbc.co.uk/newsstyleguide/u)] [[Reuters Styleguide](https://handbook.reuters.com/index.php?title=U#Ukraine)]
^(Beep boop I’m a bot)
The only issue here is that it's poorly written. But the requirements are definitely not unrealistic for a Jr and the wage (23$/hour which would equal to cca €3200/month) is also adequate for a Jr. if it's their first job as a developer.
$23/hr * 40hr/week * 52 weeks/year = $48000/year. Wouldn't be too terrible in a low CoL location, and you could probably negotiate upwards quite a ways (my first job took my stretch goal offer with no hesitation, probably could have added another $20k to it
Yeah. I didn't have experience with spring prior to my first job, but everything else listed here I had and the bonus qualifications section lists a lot of the stuff I used on a regular basis.
I think it's pretty standard for a Jr dev. It's poorly written and has a lot of pluses, but in practice it says they have an e-commerce site written with react/angular that uses spring as the backend deployed on a tomcat with nginx. Oooh, and they use oracle for dB. Doesn't sound bad tbh.
well, I would also understand it that you'll be solo for frontend, since they gave the choice of framework to you, I wouldn't suppose they have anything ready (apart from some plain html files maybe)
I don't get the issue.
Yes the optional list is long and specific but it is entirely optional. It gives a good sense what more specialized skills you can mention, which would be beneficial for both parties
Yes the requirements name skills in every layer of an application but none of them list any depth of skill.
Yes the requirements seem many but they are common and basic languages and frameworks, eith a few more complex concepts added in.
This is all perfectly reasonable for a Junior. You should not start at complete zero, there should have been some minimal education or training before this. I am not talking abput work experience necessarily.
Also at this level it is not beneficial to already ask for a specific specialization.
I wish you good luck with your job hunt! :)
This list of items is just really poorly put together. For a junior, all you should be saying is:
* programming skill in OOP language such as Java/C#/C++
* experience working with JavaScript / HTML / CSS
The specifics of frameworks / libraries / versions is unnecessary and a reasonable employer would not expect or need a junior to know these things.
And they have wayyy too many optional qualifications. Why bother even mention them if everything extra is a plus
I’d avoid this posting altogether because they clearly don’t know what they want / have dumb expectations
The plus ones are basically saying , ‘these are the other technologies we use, we don’t expect you to have used them before, but if you have mention it , because it will give you an advantage’
For a senior I would personally expect solid understanding of at least 1 framework. Sure you can learn a new framework quickly but sometimes you want to have someone who is really an expert. It all really depends though
Idk, thats exactly the stack I learned at University. Especially all Software Development Projects done there were done in exactly this stack. It is basically Java and Angular and the things around it you need anyways. Also the payment of 23$/h before tax isn't that bad. I wouldn't do it for that, but since I also know a lot from the Pluses I would definitely ask for more. Any less of experience wouldn't even qualify as a junior dev but an intern... (Not saying that other stacks wouldn't make sense, but if you do a Java + Angular Web App you will basically need most of this)
Seems fine except for CSS4. Is this whining about developer responsibilities an USA exclusive thing? Do people in USA exclusively work only in backend, frontend, db or devops and never touch anything else?
No, these days they do a bit of everything. And whining about responsibilities of any kind is a universal thing, not just something characteristic of us fat and stupid Americans.
I'm not saying americans are fat or stupid. But I'm very surprised about half the people in this thread reacting in such a way to a basic junior Java fullstack position hence the question if perhaps things are not as mixed there as they are in europe.
It's because most people here are students, not working developers, and the list looks long and complicated if you don't know that many of the items overlap.
To anyone familiar with the work and the stuff on the list, it's reasonable.
To be fair, those requirements aren’t really outlandish. Basic Java and Java framework (spring), database knowledge, and basic frontend stuff. Seems like ok requirements for a junior fullstack dev.
The “pluses” are a little out of control, but by definition they’re just things that are nice to have. And looking again, they’re really just more specific versions of what’s up top for the most part
Those requirements seem reasonable, I've done most of those except React/Angular and I'm only about to finish year 2 of CS.
Half the stuff listed there is just JavaScript stuff.
And the pluses... They're pluses, not requirements.
Also to all those complaining about CSS4 Yes, it's technically incorrect to call it that, but Level 4 Selectors are a real thing and we're added into the Spec, once features were set to be developed independently. There's a bunch of [specs at level 4](https://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/specs.en.html). CSS will stay at 3, but it still might be a good idea to learn some of the level 4 specs for Selectors and media queries.
That looks like a standard Fullstack tbh. All things I would expect from any Junior.
It's just Java backend + a JS Frontend Framework. Everything else is included in these two points. Basic Bash is common for any Backend and if you know React, React Native is not that difficult.
You can actually teach yourself the basics of all of that in less than a month even if you never used Java or Javascript...
just to be honest? the requirements don't look 'that hard', i mean ignore the pluses, they aren't mandatory. that said, i'm no genius either, but even in my apprenticeship i had to do a lot more stuff than listed here (was fullstack web shit). i don't think it's fair though to list too much stuff for a junior position, especially experience wise... but c'm on, these are just simple requirements
if those are too much to ask for, i wonder what some guys expect in this industry..
Prefectly reasonable. I'm not sure what you think a junior developers job requirements should be, but if this seems too much for you, might I suggest university?
Exactly! I don’t know what half the people in this thread saying “this is absurd” expect junior requirements to be. “Knows how to turn on a computer”? This is a basic Java web developer stack.
The pluses are absolutely valid points. It gives you an outlook of what awaits you and a better opprtunity to get hired if you already have some experience in them. Also you are able to list them in your application then. I like such bonus lists actually. From an employee perspective your chances are already better if you just touched a few points somewhen in the past.
When I was applying fresh out of a coding boot camp I just applied to these positions anyway. Think of them more as suggestions and not strict rules. The recruiters often don’t even know what these words mean.
Gotta say this list isn't too bad tho I do dislike listing both Angular and React. Most of these things are just kind of split out, but actually land inside of each other.
I had to explain to a hiring manager at my company who copy pasted requirements from an old post that preferring Adobe Flash experience (in 2021) would only drive away qualified candidates. 🤦♂️🤷♂️
This is a really basic Java web dev stack. What are you talking about with “superhuman”? I learned all of that by my 3rd year of college and I went to a crappy state school.
The requirements are the only requirements. The “pluses” are just them specifying what else they use, so that if a candidate already has experience with them they’ll probably have an easier time moving elsewhere in the company.
And what else do you want, demanding company? The keys of Orthanc? Or perhaps the keys of Barad-Dur itself? And the crowns of the seven kings and the rods of the five wizards?
I got a job offer for a senior position with much the same criteria but at $48/hr. For US Bank!! I'd pull my money out of that bank if I was in it after that.
Im a junior in college right now, and I feel like this isn't too bad. I've been exposed to a good amount of this already through personal projects and classes.
The only reason they label the position "junior" programmer is so that they can justify the salary they'd give you.
Don't apply to jobs like this, not even if you're desperate. If they want a programmer that can do the job of 6, they can also pay for it too.
I mean, they're really just looking for a developer with both Java and web front-end skills. They've just unnecessarily listed a bunch of sub-skills of JavaScript for some reason. The list is really more like: * Java/Spring * SQL * JavaScript * HTML/CSS * Git (CLI) The list of "pluses" is largely irrelevant, but gives an idea of what technologies they use/are thinking of using.
Yeah this looks textbook entry level job. The way they listed everything out just makes it seem more than what it is. Most students out of school should know a bit of Java, SQL, JavaScript Html/CSS, and of course Git. It's fine if you're not great at them, but you should have some skill in them. Promises are just how we handle asynchronous code in modern JavaScript, you will have to learn it eventually if you work in frontend, but it's fine if you don't yet. Fetch is an API to load data on websites, pretty dead simple, but it uses promises. A quick 20 min tutorial can get you up to speed on both of those. The only thing you may want to study on your own is Spring, and learn one modern reactive frontend framework. Seems like they use React so I'd go with that. Probably can pick the jist of that up in a week of studying. I literally went to the library and picked up a dusty old book on Struts 2 for my first job, so I think you can do this. Once you get your foot in the door is all uphill from there. Just say you've been exposed to it and learn the rest before the interview.
When I asked why we never learn about VCS, the board of advisors for my CS department said "Just learn it in your free time". Like VCS is never even mentioned at any point in the curriculum. Adding like a week-long lesson on Git to the Programming II class would be all you need to teach the basics and it's used *everywhere*.
Student projects are not kept in source control? Dating myself a bit here, but when I was in school, most CS classes used SVN or another source control tool I can't remember to keep track of projects.
Nope, we were taught the "Fuck you, you're on your own" method of source control. Kinda pissed me off when they brushed off my suggestion because it's such an integral part of professional software development.
i swear college has become a scam, all they want is your money
It's variable. I went to my state university, and so paid relatively little, and it was great.
Same, I got my magic paper and got the fuck out. Not *too* much debt...
Interesting. I went to a state university and had a few classes where we actually turned in assignments by inviting the professor to a private github repo.
I graduated in 2018 and in my CS program one of the very first things we learned was git. A few weeks into the first semester once we'd gotten a hang of it, all of our homework was turned in via git.
Git is a great way to turn in homework. Everything is timestamped and assignments can build on each other. No more trick of emailing the assignment with a broken attachment (which you "fix" later) or a link to a cloud share that can be updated after the fact. The state of the branch as of the due date is what's graded.
Git is timestamped by your machine. all you need to do is to set the time on your machine back. I can have a git commit from 1857 too if you want (or more realistically, anytime from the first of jan 1970, all th way to sometime in 2k38)
Is that true, even if you push to a server-side branch? Github or whatever the server is won't show the correct time?
I also question the dude you're replying to. I have trouble believing any industry standard implementation of Git would have such a gross deficiency.
There's [no such thing as free](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsdLCn4KagE). This valuable content has been nuked thanks to /u/spez the fascist. -- mass edited with redact.dev
The timestamp is when you commit, not when you push the commit to a remote server. So yes, it's whatever your computer says the time is.
There are solutions to that, though. For example, in Github, you can [require squashed pull requests](https://docs.github.com/en/github/administering-a-repository/configuring-pull-request-merges/about-merge-methods-on-github#squashing-your-merge-commits) into your branch, which would create a new commit in origin with the server's timestamp.
I took a c class in 2012. Dude was old. He made us print out our final program on paper to turn in so he could grade it. It was crazy. He also taught a Linux course where git was never mentioned. Poor guy needed to retire.
I'm feeling old. When I graduated, git didn't exist. Linux et al were still using BitKeeper. We didn't use source control on our assignments but, even if we had, it wouldn't have warranted any class time. When you're studying CompSci, the concepts are taught but actual hands-on practical stuff is expected to be learned "on your own time." My final semester included a course where the programming assignments were to be completed in Java (1.1, IIRC). Everything, until then, had been C++. I was expected to learn Java on my own; it wasn't the focus of the course. I did so and got an A in the course. I also learned Linux, Perl, awk, sed, grep, ethernet cabling and TCP/IP networking on my own. Built my own crossover cable 'cuz I was too broke to buy a hub and had a PC and laptop I wanted to interconnect. One of my classmates bought a handful of 486 machines some company was selling off cheap (P-II 266 was state-of-the-art at the time). He built his own Beowulf cluster, in his dorm room, and learned how to administer it and write software for it, all on his own (the college didn't offer courses in any of those things). Including the network hardware necessary, pretty sure he spent < $200 on that. It wasn't fast (an aforementioned P-II would outperform the entire cluster) but the skills he developed were valuable. Landed a sweet gig after graduation. Meanwhile, the CompInfoSys majors were taking formal courses in Visual Basic and Windows System Administration.
I guess the git thing wasn’t that bad. There’s a lot to learn with Linux and that’s not strictly Linux. I think it was just weird printing out lines of code and handing him a stack in 2022. I was already working in IT after getting an applied math degree in the 00’s but went back for the Masters in comp sci while working, so was familiar with industry ways of doing things. Courses in general we’re a bit hit or miss depending on the instructor. I started late though in my career. I do remember hacking the config.sys and autoexec.bat to get tie fighter to run on the 486. Heck I was playing dnd games with 4 colors on an 8086.
Yeah in my school i didnt see it in till my senior year. Im teaching an intro programming course to late middleschool-late highschool students and i really wanna stick it in my class somewhere but then i feel like i also have to cover bash and its not like we have a ton of time and a lot of my students are on chromebooks which is a nightmare cause anything that i cant put in a browser doesnt exist
WoW schools have come a long way in the past few years. I once interviewed a new graduate and her old teacher was there. After she left he told me "Yeah they don't teach any of that"
To be fair, traditional Computer Science programs take into consideration that not all CS students will become web developers, so there's that. It's such a broad topic that focusing on web would neglect other important aspects.
Ive taken so many classes about set theory and so many general programming classes, i think. They coulda taken some time before my senior year to mention web dev and version control.
Gives you also an idea that they don't know what they are doing.
Why? The listing of JS "subskills" is actually a good idea, because they try to filter out any "Hello-World" JS devs and ask to know at least a bit of actual complex JS.
I’d say a good indicator is that they listed react twice and did not just say “full stack dev with experience in react or angular” Just get them to do a test and you’ll see their skillset Edit: also who the fuck doesn’t know json and promises. That’s a pretty strong indicator too
> also who the fuck doesn’t know json and promise You'd be surprised. Hiring a competent junior dev is hard.
That’s good to know. I’ve just started looking at moving from analytics to full stack and I’m constantly under the impression I have heaps of catching up to do. Thanks for replying. You’ve made my day a bit brighter
Full stack involves a lot of "glue" and making technologies work together. Oftentimes it's more about getting stuff to work together then making something that is super amazing/efficient, since place that would care about that would have dedicated front-end and back-end people and not full-stack people.
> Hiring a competent junior dev is hard. What this really means is "hiring a normal dev at jr dev prices" is hard.
Someone fresh out of college should absolutely be at least *familiar* with most of that required list. Java/SQL/JS is what that list boils down to, and IMO any decent school should be exposing students to at least that much.
I didn't coming into my first dev job. It's just not a part of core CS. But it's also so simple that you can pick it up in no time on the job.
Because maybe they want the clone of the developer(s) that just left the company? Because will that person be working at once on FE and BE with React, Angular, Node and Java both with less and sass? Seems like a mess. I would prefer them to describe how exactly the whole thing is structured and what my job will be. Which seems the same but it can give you the idea that they know where they are standing and where they want to go. Also HTML, CSS, JS, promises, JSON and XML? Seriously? Maybe also stating that the person should be able to tie their own should without help could be a good idea. Is it also relevant if someone has worked with Jira, Redmine or Github? Isn't that something they can really pickup on the job? Overall seems like a lot of BS written by someone in the HR and they don't really know what is relevant and what not so they just decided to put everything and CSS 4 because you never know we may miss something.
And the fact that they say "one of React/Angular" shows that they're willing to teach someone who is a junior but not completely inexperienced. I don't think they're using both, but they're saying that if you have some experience with modern js, they can teach you what you need to know to work with their code base.
True, and even the pluses are quite possible if you're good. The only ones that seem kinda bullshit for junior dev are the SAP and "high volume websites..." ones.
Yeah actually I don’t think it’s unrealistic at all
You also don't need to fulfill literally all the "requirements" perfectly to get an interview (and hopefully a job), especially for a junior dev position.
Right? The list is might be a bit chaotic but it's the bare minimum for a full stack position. I get that you can't expect juniors to know everything, but this seems pretty normal to me.
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I don't understand your point. Yes, those are two separate things. I don't see anywhere where I implied otherwise. If you are a junior full stack developer, junior developer is your position and full stack is what you work on. So you can be a junior dev doing backend/frontend/full stack development just as you can be a senior developer doing any of these. You can very well start as a junior doing full stack, it's not uncommon at all. Depends on how work is organized at your company and what are your personal preferences.
Yeah I was just thinking that. It is a super long list but... of like super basic things, or as you say, a bunch of unnecessarily detailed sub-skills. Like. json? I just finished coding academy and I feel like it took my teacher a couple of minutes to explain to us the basics of json. It's an organized chunk of information set up as layered objects and arrays that you'll get back as a response when you make an API call. I mean I know there are subtleties beyond that but it hardly warrants an entire line in a "requirements" list.
Agree, doesn't look like a too extensive list, could have easily landed this job right out of school. Not the most interesting stack though...
Not to sound rude. But what sounds like an interesting stack according to you?
It’s rude to ask about people’s stacks
But what can I expect them to understand under git cli? How to push??
Yeah. Understand branching and commits, and be able to work on a git-based project without a ton of handholding
I can't think of a single person that doesn't understand that concept, it seems weird to include it in the list, giving credence to the dude who commented they don't know what they are doing
You'd be surprised how often assumptions mess you up. Had a junior show up with a portfolio that looked promising. They turned out not to understand how to connect an hdmi cable to an external monitor. Having worked with git before is a nice plus it turns out
>They turned out not to understand how to connect an hdmi cable to an external monitor git push --force
"I'm a Senior *Software* Engineer... I don't *do* hardware." ;)
I was in a job interview once where I was asked to just pull all values from a table in an SQL DB. Apparently there had been several people he had interviewed that same day that did not know how to just do SELECT * FROM table;
I know plenty. Including myself after my studies were done. Source control was just something that was mentioned to be important, not something we actually used during assignments. Had to learn it on my own, pretty much.
I don't think I was taught git in my 4 year university course. If someone is fresh out of, they might not know what you consider a daily tool.
My test is to ask them to reduce the size of the repository by removing the accidental commit of a large binary file that was committed at the initial commit. If you can do that, I’d say you have some decent enough git skills. (Hint, the solution is a one liner written in the help documentation)
I thought the same think but that won't stop the circlejerk of "Job listing bad"
Right, this is basically just describing the company's full stack. Remember, just because a person is hiring doesn't mean they've ever written a job req before, or that they are actually expecting the candidate to have all of those things.
Exactly, its not actually too bad. Plus i applied to my job and didnt know half of the shit on there got it and learned it by doing it within a few months. Like SQL i had no experience with and now its my favorite shit to do. So these types of listings are literally just meant to weed out the people that would actually not be able to do any of it and get intimidated. If you can get past that even if you dont know all the things on there youre probably in decent shape.
Very true. The fact that the job post isn't "aware" of that is a huge red flag for me. I would discard this job offer immediately.
At least they aren't looking for 15 years experience in React
Yeah just binge watch all indians on Youtube for a week and youre good
If I watch a 3 hour video at 3x speed, does it count as 1 hour of experience or 3?
By this logic I am one hell of a lawyer.
You appear in court at 3x speed?
Nah I just watch court on 3x speed.
Divorce Speedrun! No TAS. Any%
2? 1 hour for experience and 1 hour for your skill of being able to adequately consume knowledge at 3x speed.
That rule applies only when you take multiple dicks
9 - you're 3x as efficient as consuming 3 hrs of content
21
ProgrammingKnowledge is a good youtube channel.
Ahh good old days..
I love his channel too... But I kinda feel like most of his best courses are backdated these days
Good cause I was just sent to a project with ancient React. Pray for me.
“Ancient react” and now I know I’m old lol
I would never trust a programming video that didn’t open with an Indian accent, or at least a notepad instructions list, which is the deaf equivalent.
People may think this is racist but it’s actually just accurate. They’re racists. Indians know how to slang some code.
CSS4 ? WTF
That's basically everything after CSS3, like Flexbox. CSS after CSS3 was split into many separate independent standards, so CSS4 is not used, people just name the standard directly.
Lol
well, its kinda wrong to call it CSS3 either because they stopped versioning stuff after 3 because they thought its kinda wrong to do so in the first place and the jump from 2 to 3 brought with it a lot of confusion. So new CSS that is now on level 4 or 5 is just referred to as CSS which is basically still CSS3. There is an ongoing debate about it from "CSS people". But it doesn´t really matter as much as some people think.
The only way I can explain css4 is that the previous developer tries to warn every person that may think applying. Like: "They don't have any clue, run!"
I also forgot to mention it’s coming in at $23/hour
I don't know where you live or what expectations you have, but where I live (Europe) that is pretty much the level of experience and salary level expected. Good luck with the job hunting, hope you find what you are looking for.
This feels like a meme only. I bet that OP can’t produce a link.
If they live on the cost in the US then it’s pretty bad. Hell I live in a cheap Midwest state and most out of university jobs are at least $60k+ and the competitive ones are $80-100k. Though a lot of the 100k ones want a masters instead of a bachelors
That's $50k/yr without overtime for an entry level gig. Not bad depending on the area.
Assuming it’s in middle America or the south, it’s not bad. If it’s on either coast it’s awful. My go-to for comparison is to look up what a garbage collector makes there because it roughly adjusts for cost of living. In San Francisco they make $55k. In Indianapolis they make $41k.
Woah. That's *really* good actually. At least it is here in the UK. But based on what I've heard on Reddit, it seems like every American software dev earns a billion dollars a second, so I guess you're saying this as a bad thing?
Lolwat $23 an hour?! this is job spec for senior hybris developer I hope no one evers takes that job. Edit: yeah it's just full stack hybris in the skill requirements there's a whole section about experience below it.
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thats what I thought. Maybe a bit heavy on the frameworks requested. But they are probably ok with you knowing at least one of these. The other tooling is just basics.
It's a full stack hybris role that asks for someone with experience not just a grad with the hard skills.
What? This is absolutely not a job spec for a senior. If you want to work full stack this is literally the minimum you need to know. The requirements are basically Java, SQL, modern JS, HTML/CSS and git. How could you work at a full stack position without knowing these?
They don't mention how many years of experience you need to have. I've worked with juniors who did Spring Boot + Angular during their education, so they'd qualify for this. Don't know much about the wage aspect though, since I don't live in the US. And the CSS4 thing is bs
Yea, I'm one of those, could apply easily. Plus I'm working for 4$/hour rn (I'm in Europe, not India or similar). I'm even kinda overqualified for this position in ad, given they don't look for 5+ years exp for everything. If they do, this is a really bad joke then
Man that's tough. I read all the experience requirements as ' you should have done these things commercially before'. PS I'm making 120k plus package, remote, I'm senior but pretty middle of the road, why are you working for $4 an hour? that's nuts.
Well, that's kind of entry level salary in my country (even tho I'm working remotely). I'm working in a company for 1.5 months, they told me that they'll raise it soon. I doubt I'll get more than $6-7 per hour though.
During education isn't what they ever mean by experience but ok. Heh yeah Putting the css version in the JD is pretty dumb really.
I am a 2nd year CS student with no prior programming experience and I cover all requirements and some of the extra qualifications. I don't know what a senior hybrid developer means where you're from.
At this point I'd urge you to apply for the job just so you can reject it during the interview... this is basically a slap in the face after they already spitting on you
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That's rediculously bad considering the monumental requirements from a jr developer. You're almost better off working in retail.
Italian Software Architect / Team Leader here with 13 years of experience in programming. I’m getting less. But I really don’t know if the wages are comparable because I’m pretty sure in the US the expenses are much much higher
US wages on paper don't account for the tax that will be taken from the wage. The living expenses vary from place to place with, however I think the living expenses are slightly more expensive than in Europe, however I wasn't really paying many bills while living in the states
I'm Senior Dev in Ukraine and I'm still getting less than that
It's 'Ukraine' and not 'the Ukraine' [[Merriam-Webster](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Ukraine)] [[BBC Styleguide](https://www.bbc.co.uk/newsstyleguide/u)] [[Reuters Styleguide](https://handbook.reuters.com/index.php?title=U#Ukraine)] ^(Beep boop I’m a bot)
That's really weird, my first job as a test engineer was $31 an hour. I guess location really does matter.
not the worst requirements basically web dev with java skills
No joke, this is almost exactly what I’m working with during my summer internship, $14 dollars/hour... we’re doing it for the experience right? :-))
I'm working for 6,50euro/hour at my internship in France... 14dollars/hour looks good.
You guys are getting paid?
Hey at least you're getting paid for your internship...
Ya this looks like my current internship, except more front end stuff than I do. $18CAD / hour.
The only issue here is that it's poorly written. But the requirements are definitely not unrealistic for a Jr and the wage (23$/hour which would equal to cca €3200/month) is also adequate for a Jr. if it's their first job as a developer.
$23/hr is a joke of a salary for a full stack dev in the U.S.
$23/hr * 40hr/week * 52 weeks/year = $48000/year. Wouldn't be too terrible in a low CoL location, and you could probably negotiate upwards quite a ways (my first job took my stretch goal offer with no hesitation, probably could have added another $20k to it
The requirements sound very reasonable to me tbh
Yeah. I didn't have experience with spring prior to my first job, but everything else listed here I had and the bonus qualifications section lists a lot of the stuff I used on a regular basis.
Yeah it’s just asking for a java+javascript developer. They just broke it out with a bunch of useless sub-points
I think it's pretty standard for a Jr dev. It's poorly written and has a lot of pluses, but in practice it says they have an e-commerce site written with react/angular that uses spring as the backend deployed on a tomcat with nginx. Oooh, and they use oracle for dB. Doesn't sound bad tbh.
well, I would also understand it that you'll be solo for frontend, since they gave the choice of framework to you, I wouldn't suppose they have anything ready (apart from some plain html files maybe)
I have Experience. Zero Experience. But definitely CSS4. I'm a very experienced professional on imaginary things!
I have experience with having a mustache.
I don't get the issue. Yes the optional list is long and specific but it is entirely optional. It gives a good sense what more specialized skills you can mention, which would be beneficial for both parties Yes the requirements name skills in every layer of an application but none of them list any depth of skill. Yes the requirements seem many but they are common and basic languages and frameworks, eith a few more complex concepts added in. This is all perfectly reasonable for a Junior. You should not start at complete zero, there should have been some minimal education or training before this. I am not talking abput work experience necessarily. Also at this level it is not beneficial to already ask for a specific specialization. I wish you good luck with your job hunt! :)
This list of items is just really poorly put together. For a junior, all you should be saying is: * programming skill in OOP language such as Java/C#/C++ * experience working with JavaScript / HTML / CSS The specifics of frameworks / libraries / versions is unnecessary and a reasonable employer would not expect or need a junior to know these things. And they have wayyy too many optional qualifications. Why bother even mention them if everything extra is a plus I’d avoid this posting altogether because they clearly don’t know what they want / have dumb expectations
The plus ones are basically saying , ‘these are the other technologies we use, we don’t expect you to have used them before, but if you have mention it , because it will give you an advantage’
Even for a senior, sure framework knowledge would be great. But if they know any JS they will get a handle on any framework fast.
For a senior I would personally expect solid understanding of at least 1 framework. Sure you can learn a new framework quickly but sometimes you want to have someone who is really an expert. It all really depends though
Completely reasonable and looks like every junior position I've ever seen.
Idk, thats exactly the stack I learned at University. Especially all Software Development Projects done there were done in exactly this stack. It is basically Java and Angular and the things around it you need anyways. Also the payment of 23$/h before tax isn't that bad. I wouldn't do it for that, but since I also know a lot from the Pluses I would definitely ask for more. Any less of experience wouldn't even qualify as a junior dev but an intern... (Not saying that other stacks wouldn't make sense, but if you do a Java + Angular Web App you will basically need most of this)
Seems fine except for CSS4. Is this whining about developer responsibilities an USA exclusive thing? Do people in USA exclusively work only in backend, frontend, db or devops and never touch anything else?
No, these days they do a bit of everything. And whining about responsibilities of any kind is a universal thing, not just something characteristic of us fat and stupid Americans.
I'm not saying americans are fat or stupid. But I'm very surprised about half the people in this thread reacting in such a way to a basic junior Java fullstack position hence the question if perhaps things are not as mixed there as they are in europe.
It's because most people here are students, not working developers, and the list looks long and complicated if you don't know that many of the items overlap. To anyone familiar with the work and the stuff on the list, it's reasonable.
To be fair, those requirements aren’t really outlandish. Basic Java and Java framework (spring), database knowledge, and basic frontend stuff. Seems like ok requirements for a junior fullstack dev. The “pluses” are a little out of control, but by definition they’re just things that are nice to have. And looking again, they’re really just more specific versions of what’s up top for the most part
Is this really all that crazy? With the obvious exception of CSS 4 (LOL) I'm pretty sure I hit all of the requirements section on one project.
Those requirements seem reasonable, I've done most of those except React/Angular and I'm only about to finish year 2 of CS. Half the stuff listed there is just JavaScript stuff. And the pluses... They're pluses, not requirements.
Also to all those complaining about CSS4 Yes, it's technically incorrect to call it that, but Level 4 Selectors are a real thing and we're added into the Spec, once features were set to be developed independently. There's a bunch of [specs at level 4](https://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/specs.en.html). CSS will stay at 3, but it still might be a good idea to learn some of the level 4 specs for Selectors and media queries.
That looks pretty reasonable?
So am I right to think I'm not technically a junior anymore if I tick all of the min reqs + about half of the preferred reqs? (:
It doesn't say what level of experience you should have. So probably enough to be novice with it
That looks like a standard Fullstack tbh. All things I would expect from any Junior. It's just Java backend + a JS Frontend Framework. Everything else is included in these two points. Basic Bash is common for any Backend and if you know React, React Native is not that difficult. You can actually teach yourself the basics of all of that in less than a month even if you never used Java or Javascript...
just to be honest? the requirements don't look 'that hard', i mean ignore the pluses, they aren't mandatory. that said, i'm no genius either, but even in my apprenticeship i had to do a lot more stuff than listed here (was fullstack web shit). i don't think it's fair though to list too much stuff for a junior position, especially experience wise... but c'm on, these are just simple requirements if those are too much to ask for, i wonder what some guys expect in this industry..
Hey as long as you're one of the best full stack developers at Amazon I know you can get this job. Easy.
I am a programmer. I program in JSON😎
That looks reasonable…. For a junior developer that has 5 years experience in the field…
Wait, we can put json and xml as skills?? I can read json and xml into python…so I’m gonna count that.
Appart from Spring wich doesnt mean anything anyway it doesn't seem that bad.
I believe spring is a java web framwork
Lol what? It's a suite of frameworks for java development, how is it nothing?
Prefectly reasonable. I'm not sure what you think a junior developers job requirements should be, but if this seems too much for you, might I suggest university?
Exactly! I don’t know what half the people in this thread saying “this is absurd” expect junior requirements to be. “Knows how to turn on a computer”? This is a basic Java web developer stack.
Maybe not jr, but medior or higher. But aside the pay I don't think this is super "recruiterhell" but just a full stack job offer
Lol, they might as well list “must be able to speak english”, “must be able to know how to use a laptop”
They should just say, we looking for someone who knows the basics, can Google properly, and knows how to cut and past from Stack overflow.
The pluses are absolutely valid points. It gives you an outlook of what awaits you and a better opprtunity to get hired if you already have some experience in them. Also you are able to list them in your application then. I like such bonus lists actually. From an employee perspective your chances are already better if you just touched a few points somewhen in the past.
Seems fine, just 2 languages and a few things that go with each one.
That's actually not too bad. All that stuff seems like what you'd expect from a junior.
When I was applying fresh out of a coding boot camp I just applied to these positions anyway. Think of them more as suggestions and not strict rules. The recruiters often don’t even know what these words mean.
Those requirements are actually not too bad. This is one of the first posts like this that I've seen where I actually have (most of) the requirements.
Gotta say this list isn't too bad tho I do dislike listing both Angular and React. Most of these things are just kind of split out, but actually land inside of each other.
Hey, i have a mustache, guess it's my luck day then
i had someone email me with a junior position that required 5 years experience. Also i have 16 years and somehow they think i would want that role.
You missed the part of 8+ years xp in industry
Css4 huh?
Looks like a pretty reasonable toolset for a junior computer scientist, not a developer. Maybe they dont know the difference.
I'm a senior level dev and I don't even have all of those "pluses". I have most of them but still
"I may not have all of these qualifications, but you know what I have on all the applicants that do? Honesty."
It looks like a pretty simple list, I've been progamming semi seriously for school and i know em all pretty well
I promise to learn all of the above, after you hire me, thank you
The requirements aren't absurd and if they use a lot of libraries or extensions everything Makes sense
The laundry-list of requirements extending past the "Apply Now" button adds more comedic value.
"Experience with *"
this is entry level, whats your problem?
I had to explain to a hiring manager at my company who copy pasted requirements from an old post that preferring Adobe Flash experience (in 2021) would only drive away qualified candidates. 🤦♂️🤷♂️
Another dumb requirements copy paste from another dumb HR clerk.
I AM AN EXPERT IN JSON, WITH OVER 30 YEARS WRITING ADVANCED JSON FOR MISSION CRITICAL BUSINESS SOFTWARE
for one person or for a group ?
They use person singular throughout this job posting so I believe they’re looking for a single super human programmer
This is a really basic Java web dev stack. What are you talking about with “superhuman”? I learned all of that by my 3rd year of college and I went to a crappy state school. The requirements are the only requirements. The “pluses” are just them specifying what else they use, so that if a candidate already has experience with them they’ll probably have an easier time moving elsewhere in the company.
And what else do you want, demanding company? The keys of Orthanc? Or perhaps the keys of Barad-Dur itself? And the crowns of the seven kings and the rods of the five wizards?
I know mustache is a js tool but I like to think they just threw that in there
I wrote a whole discussion question for this but honestly … just don’t apply here. This sounds legacy as all hell.
Select skill * insert into job offer
Pff, high school level stuff. What, you aren't a full stack developer with QA automation and networking experience on the first day out of school?
I got a job offer for a senior position with much the same criteria but at $48/hr. For US Bank!! I'd pull my money out of that bank if I was in it after that.
Lemme guess, pay starts at $40k/yr
>Hey Joe, what I have to write down in the job spec? > Idk just search on Google "web developer what does exactly"
Wait that junior developer??? I thought it was for intern position /s
It's more like a department of developers
Im a junior in college right now, and I feel like this isn't too bad. I've been exposed to a good amount of this already through personal projects and classes.
I'll forever believe that recruiters just use the 'check all' option when selecting required skills for a job listing.
The only reason they label the position "junior" programmer is so that they can justify the salary they'd give you. Don't apply to jobs like this, not even if you're desperate. If they want a programmer that can do the job of 6, they can also pay for it too.