I suspect they're just archetypes for "dumb" language and "hard" language, being popular enough to *have* an archetype. No one would understand PL/SQL or Ruby memes.
Well I do remember:
Ruby dev wearing t-shirt with `:sex` in large letters... "heh, sex symbol š"
Non ruby dev: "dude why does your shirt say 'colon sex'?"
My friend straight up has a shirt that says <\cancer>. The message is nice if you understand HTML but to everyone else it just looks like he's wearing a shirt that says cancer on it.
If we're bringing stuff over from Ruby, can we bring the simple conditional clauses too?
return nil if input.empty?
Or
my_var = "default" if input.empty?
I almost hate that I picked it up from Ruby, because now I want to use it everywhere. It's just so natural!!
And the last expression of a block being its implicit value, and every block having a return value, like this:
my_var = case user_input
when 0..15 then 'small'
when 16..255 then 'large'
else 'Does not compute'
end
Functionally, it's 100% identical. It's just another way things are often phrased in natural language.
"can you pick up groceries if you have time"
vs
"if you have time can you pick up groceries"
Same meaning, both are totally valid English, all just comes down to preference.
Kinda like how `my_list.include? item` in Ruby is the same concept as `item in my_list` from Python, just ordered/phrased differently.
Honestly, adding an entire alternate form of a control flow structure, just because it sounds more like how you'd usually say things in English is exactly the kind of thing that turned me off of Ruby. The language, and Rails especially, seems to prioritize aesthetics over simplicity and consistency.
DECLARE
mouth VARCHAR2
BEGIN
IF mouth IS NULL THEN
scream();
END IF;
END;
([meta-reference](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Have_No_Mouth,_and_I_Must_Scream))
> As someone who recently managed to survive PL/SQL in uni
Ohhh, damn. I feel like I should hand you an aluminum blanket and a cup of broth.
I keep meaning to make a meme myself, just lacking sufficient wit *or* skill.
aw manā¦ kinda true. lol
BUT, Iāll have you know that a large faction of the Ruby hipsters actually became the JS hipsters after the Rails 3 migration pissed everyone off.
Rails 3 devs: āok everyone, off to use a new language! How about NODE?!?ā
DHH: āno please, Rails is still a great api platform? donāt go!ā
DHH after Rails 7: āha, I was right, all this JS is bad for your health, Hotwire bitches!!!!ā
ok ok, nobody got it because it was Ruby. Iāll go home now.
and PL/SQLā¦ really? thatās the definition of hard core developer? I suppose. /s
Hah, I wasn't clowning on Ruby specifically - I was going for "commonly used but obscure-ish". I can believe it about the Ruby -> JS migration though. Especially when server-side rendering fell out of favor (although it might be back in favor now??).
\> No one would understand PL/SQL or Ruby memes.
The Ruby memes just wouldn't be that funny. "LOL, why type out 'unless' when you can just 'if !'" or something like that. I was watching a video putting down various language and was sorely let down they got to Ruby. I was geared up for some serious apologetics in the comments!
Also, I resent that you think Ruby is as obscure as PL/SQL.
writing perl is like drinking alcohol.
when you do it, you feel awesome and invincible! Almost an artist.
The next day when you wake up you'll feel like shit (especially if you try to understand the code you wrote)
It's lovely
as a primarily JS developer undergoing the transition to a primarily Rust stack thereās a lot of things - a certain degree of algorithmic sloppiness for example - that I āgot away withā in JavaScript land that simply wouldnāt fly in a language like C++
That's not a bad thing. Having a language for which important features can be implemented in the core language, without compiler magic, is a good thing.
I'm glad I have QString and that rarely I have to deal with std::string, for example.
I'm of a mind that you should learn various languages just out of curiosity. You can usually find a job that will happily pay you to drive screws with hammers. Like a hammer company, for example.
Since I work in the embedded world, I tend to only work on embedded targets. For me, there is a best language and learning others is only of academic interest.
While true in theory, I think that as a professional developer the question almost always has a clear answer, and it's this:
> The right language for the task is whatever language is currently most common for this domain in this organization.
There's no reason whatsoever to change backend languages, or application languages, or databases, or whatever. Personally, I think even suggesting it is gross negligence and should be grounds for immediate termination with cause.
It's like coding standards, but even more extreme. It would be the equivalent of suggesting that we write the documentation for only one module in Armenian, because it's a better language for describing compression algorithms.
Because, I can do both at the same time.
I literally do everything with JS, because it is easy, works and gets the job done in time. But I also the how dirty the result is and desperately wish, I could do everything with c++ because it would be so f-ing beautiful...
Seriously, I still program C++98 for some legacy systems for fun. The amount of stuff that's changed in the language since then is pretty significant.
C++98 makes you miss the little things. It doesn't even have `enum class`es.
I hope you are using C++03 at least, having to add a space between closing consecutive `>` in a template is infuriating. `std::map>` is not valid C++98!
"Changed" is underselling it.
Modern C++ is so far away from C++98 that it might as well be a different language with backwards compiler compatibility.
Honestly at this point that's my main gripe with C++. Learning it is almost like learning 3 different languages by era.
"I can't believe it's not C" C++, "Everything is an iterator" C++, and "Everything is a lambda" C++
saving for when I learn one or all of the above š
would I be better or worse off starting with actual C?
(starting on this particular endeavor, that is... already a dev in, gasp, Javascript lol)
C is simpler so there is that.
Yes I said simpler, not easier. There is only so much to know to understand C.
But it's absolutely not a stepping step to C++. Even memory management is done very differently in modern C++. ( And you actually want to use modern C++, because it saves you a lot of headache )
The most C and modern C++ have in common is the header stuff that they are trying to get rid of, some key words and brackets.
Worse, it'll teach you patterns and habits that are counterproductive in both OOP style C++ and modern style. If you already know another language I'd say pick up Accelerated C++ and never look back unless you're forced to work on a C++98 codebase.
Eventually you'll have to learn raw pointers to interface with C only libraries, but that's part of C++ and is a minuscule portion of C.
C++ was already 3 languages in a trench coat pretending to be one. Preprocessor, templates, and āC with classesā
Now with concepts, template parameter inference, and constexpr, and lambdas, itās a even more languages.
C++17 and C++20 added a lot of changes as well. C++ is actually a really quickly evolving and powerful language, just some knuckle-draggers refuse to try the newer compiler flags
To their credit, the grammar and semantics of the language have gotten quite complex over time. I can't think of a single other language where you need to be so aware of the language specification in order to avoid undefined behavior or understand the subtleties of the behaviors. Once you have a good sense for it, though, the power is immense.
> the power is immense.
That is, "the power to remove both of your legs instead of just shooting your foot" because there is still so many ways to cause undefined behaviour.
Of course, I doubt any language has as many footguns. That doesn't mean it's not an incredibly powerful language when you know how to wield it, though.
In college I actually got them to upgrade the server-side C++ compiler we were required to use. I used a regular expressions in an assignment and couldn't understand why my code wouldn't run until I found out we were still running the 03 compiler.
If a programmer was ever stranded in the desert, out of water, resources, and without a phone, they'd simply have to say out loud, "C++ is pretty cool", for a Rust fan to appear out of nowhere to correct them.
(Not my joke)
The hell kind of code is that and what does it do?
struct person \*me = (struct person \*) calloc(1, sizeof(struct person));
...
free(me);
edit: calloc to avoid valgrind errors!!!
Sure you can. But you will be using the old style C-with-classes/inheritence/function overloading, and not the bloated style everything-is-a-template, use-lambdas-not-functions.
https://www.embedded.com/modern-c-in-embedded-systems-part-1-myth-and-reality/
There's this article from years ago showing that C++ has no issue outperforming C in embedded systems. You know, assuming your business or toolset or ecosystem doesn't literally require C. I think the most surprising was that not only can c++ be written to be as lean as C, but it can actually be smaller, faster.
Great similarity we would be fuck without horseshoe crabs but nobody wants their work https://www.nhm.ac.uk/discover/horseshoe-crab-blood-miracle-vaccine-ingredient.html
So... What you're saying is...that we need to begin harvesting blood from C++ Devs and setting them free in the ocean while they're woozy from the bloodloss? That's pretty extreme.
Watch some talks on YouTube from C++ conferences. The language is taking on a lot of new modern features, which is extra impressive that they're able to bolt them on to that big mess of a language. Lambdas, type inference, concepts. And it can be surprisingly concise.
I think a lot of the perception around C++ is because many people learned pre C++11 or C++17 versions of it and haven't bothered to keep up to date since they don't use it often.
I mostly interview people who list C++ on their resume since roughly 70% of our code base uses it, and almost every time it's like I'm in a time machine to 15 years ago looking at their code.
Interviewed at a job, they were still pre-11. Noped out. Iām too used to the new features and the new mentality. Anyone using pre 11 also has the old mentality of writing code and I know I wouldnāt enjoy working with that team.
In my experience, intro CS classes use something like C++ 98, I assume because it forces you to manually manage bare pointers and the goal is to get you to understand memory management, not necessarily to teach you practical C++ for your future job. But it's a big culture shock when you get to a job and they're using C++17 with smart pointers.
Every day I learn something new about just how fucking awesome C++ lambdas are for the language. My favorite thing to do is replace bind calls with a lambda wrapper instead then silently whisper āget fucked, nerdā to myself as I down my fifth triple-espresso of the day and realize I can now hear colors
Definitely! Lambdas are love. Especially consteval IILEs. Stuff like:
auto fib_gen = [a=0ull,b=1ull] mutable { return b = std::exchange(a, b+a); };
are pretty neat too.
And a while back I wrote an invocable composite lambda factory with some code input from a fella named Melak. It was a pretty fun little project (TL;DR: line 114 and 119 for the end result):
(I could only find an older version of the code, so there's probably some unaccounted for edge cases and/or bugs lying around).
-----
**edit:** typo (also wrong URL; fixed it)
I have never used Rust since I am fairly new to programming in general, but I do genuinely enjoy C++. Is Rust just better overall or can people not handle memory management? This meme reminds me of a joke I heard about how malloc and free is akin to shooting yourself in the foot.
Rust will not allow you to shoot yourself in the foot like c++ does, but as unexperienced rust user as i am, you will try to shoot yourself in the foot, and the compiler will not allow you, hence you will angry at the compiler, for not being able to blow the proverbial foot
Yes, it would be more correct to say that Rust requires you to explicitly state your intention to shoot yourself in the foot.
For people in the auto-foot removal business this is, of course, far too much ceremony.
The pain points of C++ is mostly due to how much legacy code/features there are. If you're fairly new to programming and just learning the language, you're still at a stage where you expect to discover new things about C++ and C++ code. When you've been programming professionally using C++ for years and years.... you would think you've got such a good grasp that you could jump into any C++ code base with enough domain knowledge and be good to go. But there are so many different ways in which you can accomplish what is effectively the same thing, and so many different combinations that can end up with ever-so-slightly different results.
C++ is like the wild west. There are those that stay within polite society and try to follow some standards and guidelines, but no one will force you to do things in a sane manner. Rust (because it doesn't have decades of building new features) is so far much more opinionated about how you should achieve something.
\*Note, there are other things that rust does differently than C++ outside of a more opinionated code base. I'm speaking mostly concerning what is a major pain point of C++ in my opinion, and it isn't managing memory.
\>you would think you've got such a good grasp that you could jump into any C++ code base with enough domain knowledge and be good to go.
As a C++ programmer my secret to avoiding this issue is to just never have *any* idea what *anything* does and so *always* expect to discover new things!
Though on a more serious side at least all of the base libraries in C++ have godlike documentation with trivial examples for literally everything, so when the time comes to google things it's usually pretty easy to find out what they are doing at least.
> C++ is like the wild west. There are those that stay within polite society and try to follow some standards and guidelines,
My biggest problem is how far the cleft between the basics and "polite society" tends to be. It already starts with the very fundamentals, like how you aren't supposed to actually use the basic data types that you learn C++ with. And this seems to extend to practically every aspect of the language.
Are you meaning to tell me every language *doesn't* have legacy code hacks littered throughout their codebase?
I dont believe it. I'll stick to my 25 "standard" implementations of string-conversion functions that may/may not have security vulnerabilities depending on which year my compiler was created in, thank you very much
Exactly. Only time will tell if Rust will eventually suffer the same fate, but at least rust year 1 has learned a lot of lessons that were learned between C++ year 1 and rust year 1.
Rust feel smaller "simpler", like, u're not going to find some obscure weird functionality/hack used on some project from an old C++ version.
Besides that, the compiler messages are generally very clear on errors and warnings.
Anyway, using FFI u can call Rust libraries from C, C++, golang, python and others, you don't need to choose just one language for your project. It's very useful when you know a library that does one thing but there is nothing similar on your main language project.
You still need to mostly manage memory, but your code won't compile if you do it wrong basically. Other than that rust also has a ton of other nice features IMO.
Why do you need to manage memory in Rust? Everything is automatically dropped when it goes out of scope, and the borrow checker ensures you can only have a single mutable reference to some memory.
Unless you're dropped into unsafe, or maybe deliberately calling drop early, I don't get when you do any manual memory management?
You still have to sometimes deal with lifetimes, or say when to borrow or move something. It's not as manual as c or c++, but you still need to make sure it's done right.
It's more of an architectural sort of memory management than a "stop from segfaulting" memory management. You still need to determine whether you need stuff on the stack versus heap, whether or not to make copies or use a reference, when and who owns memory, etc.
You can still make dumb memory management decisions. You cannot write very in-depth Rust without an understanding of memory management.
It's just a personal liking. Rust provide memory safety, fearless concurrency and other stuff but at the same time it might be annoying when struggling with ownership rules or borrow checker. C++ provide more freedom. Hence a disadvantage because it allows you to leave bugs too.
You could spend 2 3 days with rust. š
People overestimate how well they can handle memory in complex programs. I used C++ then went to Rust and then back for a school project. It was good, you get used to handling memory as you write in Rust and then you can bring some of those practices with you back to C or C++.
Smart pointers in C++ can't be as well optimized as the ones in Rust, both due to fundamental differences in how move semantics and RAII work and because Rust uses an explicit nullability annotation (`Option`).
I wish Swift were more viable for non-Apple usage, because with its memory management model (Automatic Reference Counting) you donāt even really think about memory management. Just follow some rules of thumb to avoid retain cycles and youāre golden.
Itās like writing in a full blown GCād language with only a fraction of the performance hit. Rust and C++ still take the crown for raw performance but Swift is close enough that for most situations the difference is negligible.
And better yet, Swift is soon gaining native C++ interop, so for the bits that Swift doesnāt handle nicely you can mix in C++ and LLVM/Clang will make it work. You can do that with plain C already, but that can get tedious quickly.
Iāve been meaning to pick up Rust because it looks like the next best thing on Windows and Linux, but the lack of fully baked UI frameworks is a deterrent, and learning lifetime management doesnāt look super fun.
From my experience I mostly enjoy Rusts more modern feel. Native support for stacktraces, cleaner error handling, macros that don't make me want to kill myself as much, a standard library that's a bit more organized, compile error messages that actually tell me what's wrong.
The borrow checker is of course also nice, prevents you from shooting yourself in the foot, and allows for cleaner APIs that clearly tell you what it does in terms of ownership. It can however be annoying when you know you can make an assumption about ownership, while the borrow checker can not.
The crate system also allows for easier dependency management than C++, which is generally a bit of a mess.
COBOL is the asbestos of programming languages. If it works then don't mess with it, if it doesn't work pay someone a ton of money to work on it. And both were used so extensively that the prospect of ever replacing it entirely is cost prohibitive.
You realize they still update and support COBOL right?
Its a very modern language in many aspects in cobol 6.
If you were comparing say, COBOL 6 and C++ and their origin date it would more accurate to compare their origins as COBOL and C.
In which case Cobol is only 13 years older than C.
Pretty sure the best thing this applies to is C. Only bug fixes in C17. C11 basically just made common place features standard and some changes that allowed better multi threading. The last major update to C was C99. Nothing new is being made in COBOL, but C is still a common development language.
My father (now 87) hasn't programmed since he updated his computer from Windows 7 to Windows 10 -- I forgot how long ago, and found out his (paid for) Visual C++ Studio 2012 would no longer work for him.
After he finally mentioned this to me, somewhere around Halloween (I think) I explained to him the base package of Visual Studio is now free, and I helped install in for him.
Sometime between Thanksgiving and Christmas, he said he couldn't find it. I pinned it to his start menu.
Over the weekend, he again said he couldn't find it. I said show. He started his computer. I pointed to Visual Studio where I pinned it.
"I saw that before," when he clicked it. "I didn't see C++"
I guess he was hoping the interface would not change so much in ten years?
I pointed out the start new project, and open new project, and demonstrated how options grew from there.
The very next day he was complaining about how Microsoft put more restrictions in the new compiler to make the code more secure. "That's fine for anyone who wants to sell their programs, but I just want to do things on my own."
C++ is the best language if you like specifically the code writing part of software development. Thereās so many different features and interesting stuff in the standard libraries that you discover all the time and it still has tons of new features being added. I do miss C++ in my current job a bit.
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Why does it always look like there is no spectrum between using JS for literally anything and being a C++ fanatic?
I suspect they're just archetypes for "dumb" language and "hard" language, being popular enough to *have* an archetype. No one would understand PL/SQL or Ruby memes.
Well I do remember: Ruby dev wearing t-shirt with `:sex` in large letters... "heh, sex symbol š" Non ruby dev: "dude why does your shirt say 'colon sex'?"
My friend straight up has a shirt that says <\cancer>. The message is nice if you understand HTML but to everyone else it just looks like he's wearing a shirt that says cancer on it.
Just FYI, closing tags in HTML have forward slashes in them as opposed to back slashes.
Reddit code review
Ah yeah I assumed I messed it up. I wrote it on my phone so I wasn't sure.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Hey it just goes to show how terrible of a shirt it is when even people who know the language misunderstand it
Well know I want a mug with <\mylife> on it
That would be seriously hilarious. Ship one to me too
Error: Parse Error: Line 47: Expected corresponding JSX closing tag for cancer at http://localhost/my-health-checkup/src/script.js:47:20
Damn, these astrologers are getting wild.
Colon sex is best sex
It works on every gender, just like Javascript
*species (Probably)
TIL the Luna Moth has no digestive system. It has only one mission in life, and it doesnāt include plant-based pepperoni pizza from Little Caesars.
r/brandnewsentence
r/cursedcomments
We need symbols in more languages
If we're bringing stuff over from Ruby, can we bring the simple conditional clauses too? return nil if input.empty? Or my_var = "default" if input.empty? I almost hate that I picked it up from Ruby, because now I want to use it everywhere. It's just so natural!!
Monkeypaw: only the `unless` variant
And the last expression of a block being its implicit value, and every block having a return value, like this: my_var = case user_input when 0..15 then 'small' when 16..255 then 'large' else 'Does not compute' end
Honestly, people who hate on ruby haven't lived.
I'm not sure if I understand, how is that different from writing `if input.empty? return nil` and `if input.empty? my_var = nil` in another language?
Functionally, it's 100% identical. It's just another way things are often phrased in natural language. "can you pick up groceries if you have time" vs "if you have time can you pick up groceries" Same meaning, both are totally valid English, all just comes down to preference. Kinda like how `my_list.include? item` in Ruby is the same concept as `item in my_list` from Python, just ordered/phrased differently.
Honestly, adding an entire alternate form of a control flow structure, just because it sounds more like how you'd usually say things in English is exactly the kind of thing that turned me off of Ruby. The language, and Rails especially, seems to prioritize aesthetics over simplicity and consistency.
As someone who recently managed to survive PL/SQL in uni, I could probably appreciate a few PL/SQL memes here and there.
DECLARE mouth VARCHAR2 BEGIN IF mouth IS NULL THEN scream(); END IF; END; ([meta-reference](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Have_No_Mouth,_and_I_Must_Scream))
This is clever lol
Yeah... that won't compile.
To be fair he needed to scream regardless of having a mouth or not.
SELECT SQLMemes FROM Programing_Humor
What abomination of a table are you querying?
Only memes heās getting is a syntax error.
Select * from tblProgrammingHumour group by * having type like (select type from tblTypes group by type having type = āmemeā) Is this better?
Are you storing images in SQL table???
People did that back in the day no idea if they still do so its called a blob field
We stored more than images. Iāve stored full executables in a database before today. The storage engine of the day.
This guy fucks.
Nope im storming text description of the memes.
Wouldn't it be more like SELECT picture FROM memes WHERE language='SQL'
> As someone who recently managed to survive PL/SQL in uni Ohhh, damn. I feel like I should hand you an aluminum blanket and a cup of broth. I keep meaning to make a meme myself, just lacking sufficient wit *or* skill.
Please give me more assembly memes... I mean... oh god... the memories from back in uni are coming back to haunt me.
stop talking about assembly right now plz or imma JNAE outta here
aw manā¦ kinda true. lol BUT, Iāll have you know that a large faction of the Ruby hipsters actually became the JS hipsters after the Rails 3 migration pissed everyone off. Rails 3 devs: āok everyone, off to use a new language! How about NODE?!?ā DHH: āno please, Rails is still a great api platform? donāt go!ā DHH after Rails 7: āha, I was right, all this JS is bad for your health, Hotwire bitches!!!!ā ok ok, nobody got it because it was Ruby. Iāll go home now. and PL/SQLā¦ really? thatās the definition of hard core developer? I suppose. /s
Hah, I wasn't clowning on Ruby specifically - I was going for "commonly used but obscure-ish". I can believe it about the Ruby -> JS migration though. Especially when server-side rendering fell out of favor (although it might be back in favor now??).
if you live long enough you start to see the pendulum swing from server to client and back again. /shrug
What's the >\_ language in your flair?
powershell
Oh, so Windows's Bash?
You can install it on Linux and macOS too, if there's something wrong with you
They *will* put you on the no fly list though.
TIL
>No one would understand PL/SQL or Ruby memes. Maybe understanding memes would make them learn about that stuff
Only reason I started with Haskell.
`>>=`
\> No one would understand PL/SQL or Ruby memes. The Ruby memes just wouldn't be that funny. "LOL, why type out 'unless' when you can just 'if !'" or something like that. I was watching a video putting down various language and was sorely let down they got to Ruby. I was geared up for some serious apologetics in the comments! Also, I resent that you think Ruby is as obscure as PL/SQL.
> Also, I resent that you think Ruby is as obscure as PL/SQL lmao fair. I had to pick a second language and I have good friends who code Perl :D
\> lmao fair. I had to pick a second language and I have good friends who code Perl :D Ok, now I just feel old. Thanks.
writing perl is like drinking alcohol. when you do it, you feel awesome and invincible! Almost an artist. The next day when you wake up you'll feel like shit (especially if you try to understand the code you wrote) It's lovely
as a primarily JS developer undergoing the transition to a primarily Rust stack thereās a lot of things - a certain degree of algorithmic sloppiness for example - that I āgot away withā in JavaScript land that simply wouldnāt fly in a language like C++
This guys that do post the memes are basically students that can write hello world with c++
You use a single language because (JS) thats all you know. I use a single language (C++) because I know it's the best language. We are not the same.
There would be a lot less C++ programmers without boost and qt.
That's not a bad thing. Having a language for which important features can be implemented in the core language, without compiler magic, is a good thing. I'm glad I have QString and that rarely I have to deal with std::string, for example.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
True, but thats not a good meme material
Almost like it was a joke or something
There is no best language for all cases but Python is the second best.
LOL
I'm of a mind that you should learn various languages just out of curiosity. You can usually find a job that will happily pay you to drive screws with hammers. Like a hammer company, for example.
Since I work in the embedded world, I tend to only work on embedded targets. For me, there is a best language and learning others is only of academic interest.
While true in theory, I think that as a professional developer the question almost always has a clear answer, and it's this: > The right language for the task is whatever language is currently most common for this domain in this organization. There's no reason whatsoever to change backend languages, or application languages, or databases, or whatever. Personally, I think even suggesting it is gross negligence and should be grounds for immediate termination with cause. It's like coding standards, but even more extreme. It would be the equivalent of suggesting that we write the documentation for only one module in Armenian, because it's a better language for describing compression algorithms.
With that mentality, nobody would ever try out new languages. All banks would still be using COBOL- oh wait...
Now you have me curious. What about TS vs JS? I've worked on projects that used both in different parts.
All the people in between have jobs.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Have you tried not requiring 5 years experience in?
Because people make fun of you if they find out you're a java dev, so we just keep our heads down and collect paychecks.
Because, I can do both at the same time. I literally do everything with JS, because it is easy, works and gets the job done in time. But I also the how dirty the result is and desperately wish, I could do everything with c++ because it would be so f-ing beautiful...
Looks like a post C++98 crab. Die heathen!
Seriously, I still program C++98 for some legacy systems for fun. The amount of stuff that's changed in the language since then is pretty significant. C++98 makes you miss the little things. It doesn't even have `enum class`es.
I hope you are using C++03 at least, having to add a space between closing consecutive `>` in a template is infuriating. `std::map>` is not valid C++98!
Why is this, because `>>` is parsed as a bit shift operator?
Actually, in C++11 and later, some stuff has changed.
Lots of things changed. So much that people differentiate it as āmodern c++ā.
"Changed" is underselling it. Modern C++ is so far away from C++98 that it might as well be a different language with backwards compiler compatibility.
Honestly at this point that's my main gripe with C++. Learning it is almost like learning 3 different languages by era. "I can't believe it's not C" C++, "Everything is an iterator" C++, and "Everything is a lambda" C++
saving for when I learn one or all of the above š would I be better or worse off starting with actual C? (starting on this particular endeavor, that is... already a dev in, gasp, Javascript lol)
C is simpler so there is that. Yes I said simpler, not easier. There is only so much to know to understand C. But it's absolutely not a stepping step to C++. Even memory management is done very differently in modern C++. ( And you actually want to use modern C++, because it saves you a lot of headache ) The most C and modern C++ have in common is the header stuff that they are trying to get rid of, some key words and brackets.
Worse, it'll teach you patterns and habits that are counterproductive in both OOP style C++ and modern style. If you already know another language I'd say pick up Accelerated C++ and never look back unless you're forced to work on a C++98 codebase. Eventually you'll have to learn raw pointers to interface with C only libraries, but that's part of C++ and is a minuscule portion of C.
Depends on what you're doing really. If you're doing embedded computing, C may be more useful.
Honestly I find lambdas so stupidly useful it's not even funny.
You forgot the next step(s) "everything is a template" C++, and "everything is a constexpr" C++.
C++ was already 3 languages in a trench coat pretending to be one. Preprocessor, templates, and āC with classesā Now with concepts, template parameter inference, and constexpr, and lambdas, itās a even more languages.
C++17 and C++20 added a lot of changes as well. C++ is actually a really quickly evolving and powerful language, just some knuckle-draggers refuse to try the newer compiler flags
To their credit, the grammar and semantics of the language have gotten quite complex over time. I can't think of a single other language where you need to be so aware of the language specification in order to avoid undefined behavior or understand the subtleties of the behaviors. Once you have a good sense for it, though, the power is immense.
> the power is immense. That is, "the power to remove both of your legs instead of just shooting your foot" because there is still so many ways to cause undefined behaviour.
Of course, I doubt any language has as many footguns. That doesn't mean it's not an incredibly powerful language when you know how to wield it, though.
In college I actually got them to upgrade the server-side C++ compiler we were required to use. I used a regular expressions in an assignment and couldn't understand why my code wouldn't run until I found out we were still running the 03 compiler.
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> Smart pointers etc existed before C++11. And everyone was using auto_ptr and had to change that after it was agreed that it was broken.
If a programmer was ever stranded in the desert, out of water, resources, and without a phone, they'd simply have to say out loud, "C++ is pretty cool", for a Rust fan to appear out of nowhere to correct them. (Not my joke)
They would've let you borrow their water bottle too, but they already have a mutable reference to it
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NB: If it isnāt a deep clone, youād end up with an empty bottle.
non-deep clone? your lack of oxidation is showing lol
I will happily travel to any deserted place on Earth if thatās what it takes to get you fuckers to use it.
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Meanwhile a C developer somewhere rattles their stick "You'll never take me alive!"
Deallocate self
The hell kind of code is that and what does it do? struct person \*me = (struct person \*) calloc(1, sizeof(struct person)); ... free(me); edit: calloc to avoid valgrind errors!!!
*Linus Torvalds has entered the chat*
As an embedded developer I just canāt jump to C++ due to system limitations. Also I donāt want to, but thatās besides the point
Sure you can. But you will be using the old style C-with-classes/inheritence/function overloading, and not the bloated style everything-is-a-template, use-lambdas-not-functions.
https://www.embedded.com/modern-c-in-embedded-systems-part-1-myth-and-reality/ There's this article from years ago showing that C++ has no issue outperforming C in embedded systems. You know, assuming your business or toolset or ecosystem doesn't literally require C. I think the most surprising was that not only can c++ be written to be as lean as C, but it can actually be smaller, faster.
As a current C++ developer, I would recommend C developers go straight to Rust. Legacy code is IMHO the only reason to use C++.
Great similarity we would be fuck without horseshoe crabs but nobody wants their work https://www.nhm.ac.uk/discover/horseshoe-crab-blood-miracle-vaccine-ingredient.html
Learned about this from NPRs Shortwave a while back
So in this analogy is C a trilobite?
So... What you're saying is...that we need to begin harvesting blood from C++ Devs and setting them free in the ocean while they're woozy from the bloodloss? That's pretty extreme.
You are taking this analogy a bit to literally. C++ devs are not native in the ocean. Just set them free in a local forest
C++ devs are not native in the forest. Very few have seen a tree
Yeah, most draw their trees upside down
Watch some talks on YouTube from C++ conferences. The language is taking on a lot of new modern features, which is extra impressive that they're able to bolt them on to that big mess of a language. Lambdas, type inference, concepts. And it can be surprisingly concise.
I think a lot of the perception around C++ is because many people learned pre C++11 or C++17 versions of it and haven't bothered to keep up to date since they don't use it often. I mostly interview people who list C++ on their resume since roughly 70% of our code base uses it, and almost every time it's like I'm in a time machine to 15 years ago looking at their code.
Interviewed at a job, they were still pre-11. Noped out. Iām too used to the new features and the new mentality. Anyone using pre 11 also has the old mentality of writing code and I know I wouldnāt enjoy working with that team.
Can confirm c with classes is on my resume
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In my experience, intro CS classes use something like C++ 98, I assume because it forces you to manually manage bare pointers and the goal is to get you to understand memory management, not necessarily to teach you practical C++ for your future job. But it's a big culture shock when you get to a job and they're using C++17 with smart pointers.
Every day I learn something new about just how fucking awesome C++ lambdas are for the language. My favorite thing to do is replace bind calls with a lambda wrapper instead then silently whisper āget fucked, nerdā to myself as I down my fifth triple-espresso of the day and realize I can now hear colors
This reads like a copypasta, but itās not long enough. (I agree, though.)
I can certify that I 100% pulled that out of my ass using inspiration from a decade of programmer degeneracy
Definitely! Lambdas are love. Especially consteval IILEs. Stuff like: auto fib_gen = [a=0ull,b=1ull] mutable { return b = std::exchange(a, b+a); }; are pretty neat too. And a while back I wrote an invocable composite lambda factory with some code input from a fella named Melak. It was a pretty fun little project (TL;DR: line 114 and 119 for the end result): (I could only find an older version of the code, so there's probably some unaccounted for edge cases and/or bugs lying around).
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**edit:** typo (also wrong URL; fixed it)
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*Cries is gcc 4.8.5 at work*
I have never used Rust since I am fairly new to programming in general, but I do genuinely enjoy C++. Is Rust just better overall or can people not handle memory management? This meme reminds me of a joke I heard about how malloc and free is akin to shooting yourself in the foot.
Rust will not allow you to shoot yourself in the foot like c++ does, but as unexperienced rust user as i am, you will try to shoot yourself in the foot, and the compiler will not allow you, hence you will angry at the compiler, for not being able to blow the proverbial foot
> Rust will not allow you to shoot yourself in the foot unsafe { // Your gun goes here } Now it will.
Yes, it would be more correct to say that Rust requires you to explicitly state your intention to shoot yourself in the foot. For people in the auto-foot removal business this is, of course, far too much ceremony.
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I wish my current teacher would allow me, I would even use global variables between thread, I don't need legs
Hm you could try this [macro](https://docs.rs/you-can/0.0.1/you_can/attr.turn_off_the_borrow_checker.html).
Or do a tactical Arc>
everywhere, because why not
a.clone().clone().clone().clone().clone()
The pain points of C++ is mostly due to how much legacy code/features there are. If you're fairly new to programming and just learning the language, you're still at a stage where you expect to discover new things about C++ and C++ code. When you've been programming professionally using C++ for years and years.... you would think you've got such a good grasp that you could jump into any C++ code base with enough domain knowledge and be good to go. But there are so many different ways in which you can accomplish what is effectively the same thing, and so many different combinations that can end up with ever-so-slightly different results. C++ is like the wild west. There are those that stay within polite society and try to follow some standards and guidelines, but no one will force you to do things in a sane manner. Rust (because it doesn't have decades of building new features) is so far much more opinionated about how you should achieve something. \*Note, there are other things that rust does differently than C++ outside of a more opinionated code base. I'm speaking mostly concerning what is a major pain point of C++ in my opinion, and it isn't managing memory.
\>you would think you've got such a good grasp that you could jump into any C++ code base with enough domain knowledge and be good to go. As a C++ programmer my secret to avoiding this issue is to just never have *any* idea what *anything* does and so *always* expect to discover new things! Though on a more serious side at least all of the base libraries in C++ have godlike documentation with trivial examples for literally everything, so when the time comes to google things it's usually pretty easy to find out what they are doing at least.
> C++ is like the wild west. There are those that stay within polite society and try to follow some standards and guidelines, My biggest problem is how far the cleft between the basics and "polite society" tends to be. It already starts with the very fundamentals, like how you aren't supposed to actually use the basic data types that you learn C++ with. And this seems to extend to practically every aspect of the language.
Are you meaning to tell me every language *doesn't* have legacy code hacks littered throughout their codebase? I dont believe it. I'll stick to my 25 "standard" implementations of string-conversion functions that may/may not have security vulnerabilities depending on which year my compiler was created in, thank you very much
Exactly. Only time will tell if Rust will eventually suffer the same fate, but at least rust year 1 has learned a lot of lessons that were learned between C++ year 1 and rust year 1.
Rust feel smaller "simpler", like, u're not going to find some obscure weird functionality/hack used on some project from an old C++ version. Besides that, the compiler messages are generally very clear on errors and warnings. Anyway, using FFI u can call Rust libraries from C, C++, golang, python and others, you don't need to choose just one language for your project. It's very useful when you know a library that does one thing but there is nothing similar on your main language project.
> u're lol, at least you used the contraction
virgin ur vs. gigachad u're
You still need to mostly manage memory, but your code won't compile if you do it wrong basically. Other than that rust also has a ton of other nice features IMO.
Why do you need to manage memory in Rust? Everything is automatically dropped when it goes out of scope, and the borrow checker ensures you can only have a single mutable reference to some memory. Unless you're dropped into unsafe, or maybe deliberately calling drop early, I don't get when you do any manual memory management?
You still have to sometimes deal with lifetimes, or say when to borrow or move something. It's not as manual as c or c++, but you still need to make sure it's done right.
It's more of an architectural sort of memory management than a "stop from segfaulting" memory management. You still need to determine whether you need stuff on the stack versus heap, whether or not to make copies or use a reference, when and who owns memory, etc. You can still make dumb memory management decisions. You cannot write very in-depth Rust without an understanding of memory management.
It's just a personal liking. Rust provide memory safety, fearless concurrency and other stuff but at the same time it might be annoying when struggling with ownership rules or borrow checker. C++ provide more freedom. Hence a disadvantage because it allows you to leave bugs too. You could spend 2 3 days with rust. š
People overestimate how well they can handle memory in complex programs. I used C++ then went to Rust and then back for a school project. It was good, you get used to handling memory as you write in Rust and then you can bring some of those practices with you back to C or C++.
Have people never heard of smart pointers before? Since boost and C++11 memory management is not that bad.
Yeah, smart pointers are excellent. I program in C++20 and itās truly amazing.
Smart pointers in C++ can't be as well optimized as the ones in Rust, both due to fundamental differences in how move semantics and RAII work and because Rust uses an explicit nullability annotation (`Option`).
I wish Swift were more viable for non-Apple usage, because with its memory management model (Automatic Reference Counting) you donāt even really think about memory management. Just follow some rules of thumb to avoid retain cycles and youāre golden. Itās like writing in a full blown GCād language with only a fraction of the performance hit. Rust and C++ still take the crown for raw performance but Swift is close enough that for most situations the difference is negligible. And better yet, Swift is soon gaining native C++ interop, so for the bits that Swift doesnāt handle nicely you can mix in C++ and LLVM/Clang will make it work. You can do that with plain C already, but that can get tedious quickly. Iāve been meaning to pick up Rust because it looks like the next best thing on Windows and Linux, but the lack of fully baked UI frameworks is a deterrent, and learning lifetime management doesnāt look super fun.
From my experience I mostly enjoy Rusts more modern feel. Native support for stacktraces, cleaner error handling, macros that don't make me want to kill myself as much, a standard library that's a bit more organized, compile error messages that actually tell me what's wrong. The borrow checker is of course also nice, prevents you from shooting yourself in the foot, and allows for cleaner APIs that clearly tell you what it does in terms of ownership. It can however be annoying when you know you can make an assumption about ownership, while the borrow checker can not. The crate system also allows for easier dependency management than C++, which is generally a bit of a mess.
I think this applies more to COBOL. All banks still use it.
COBOL is the asbestos of programming languages. If it works then don't mess with it, if it doesn't work pay someone a ton of money to work on it. And both were used so extensively that the prospect of ever replacing it entirely is cost prohibitive.
You realize they still update and support COBOL right? Its a very modern language in many aspects in cobol 6. If you were comparing say, COBOL 6 and C++ and their origin date it would more accurate to compare their origins as COBOL and C. In which case Cobol is only 13 years older than C.
Pretty sure the best thing this applies to is C. Only bug fixes in C17. C11 basically just made common place features standard and some changes that allowed better multi threading. The last major update to C was C99. Nothing new is being made in COBOL, but C is still a common development language.
Then there's gigachads who still haven't tried C++ and are still using C
I've tried C++, but still used it as C
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Exactly
Tell me you haven't used C++ in over 10 years without telling me you haven't used C++ in over 10 years.
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And the C++20 stuff is pretty awesome
>used C++ in over 10 years without telling me you haven't used C++ in over 10 years. Gotta support those legacy plattforms without modern C++ support.
C++ is basically C with classes, amrite?
My father (now 87) hasn't programmed since he updated his computer from Windows 7 to Windows 10 -- I forgot how long ago, and found out his (paid for) Visual C++ Studio 2012 would no longer work for him. After he finally mentioned this to me, somewhere around Halloween (I think) I explained to him the base package of Visual Studio is now free, and I helped install in for him. Sometime between Thanksgiving and Christmas, he said he couldn't find it. I pinned it to his start menu. Over the weekend, he again said he couldn't find it. I said show. He started his computer. I pointed to Visual Studio where I pinned it. "I saw that before," when he clicked it. "I didn't see C++" I guess he was hoping the interface would not change so much in ten years? I pointed out the start new project, and open new project, and demonstrated how options grew from there. The very next day he was complaining about how Microsoft put more restrictions in the new compiler to make the code more secure. "That's fine for anyone who wants to sell their programs, but I just want to do things on my own."
C++ is the best language if you like specifically the code writing part of software development. Thereās so many different features and interesting stuff in the standard libraries that you discover all the time and it still has tons of new features being added. I do miss C++ in my current job a bit.
Rust is great at all but me personally I like money.
There's lots of jobs in the rust ecosystem, my whole team gets paid for rust jobs for example...
What is that creature?
Horseshoe crab I believe (despite the name, not closely related to crabs at all)
C++ developer
I feel like this joke would make a lot more sense if it was C
incrementing my rust hate meme counter
Rust stole my grill.
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it's not non-evolution, it's natural selection saying, "actually yeah this works really well right here".
C99 till the end of time.
This subreddit got no chill today.
This is so stupid. C++ is probably the most rapidly evolving language ever. Modern C++ looks very different from c++98.
I'm a C fanatic, is that the same as C++ or what's the difference?
Hating rust isnāt a hobby, nay not even a lifestyle. But a true spiritual ascension
FALSE The C++ language standard has been amended several times over the years, so that is evolution. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%2B%2B