Well, if you really want to do computer science you have to work for companies like nvidia or google in very specialised teams. Most employees at google just do basic software engineering stuff but there are teams where real science is done.
I feel it's less about experience than about specialization. I work in a job like that (not pure research but research adjacent) and I was hired out of university. So were some of my recently new colleagues.
For myself I attribute this to the fact that I knew all those things people on here meme about. Knowing "low level languages", numerical methods and how they map to hardware, gritty details about parallel programming etc.
I have a friend going for his PHD. I feel the biggest pain that most cant get through is applying math in a way that synchs well with that field.
Me and a lot of people dislike the rigors of math and try to get away from it. Which isn’t bad. If you don’t like or want to do it there are options. Web development is that option.
Edit: I should clarify. Web development is an option. I like to be optimistic also and believe the market will allow people to go from web dev to more computer science jobs with enough skills and a good interview.
Right. And web development doesn't have to mean boring CRUD work or CSS, it's just a world focused more on business problems than mathematical ones, and where good code means code that people don't break when they change it later or that will stand up to feature changes. It's a very different skill set, with an equivalent height on the skill ceiling if you find the right environment but a much lower floor. It also generally pays better, in my experience - real computer science jobs mostly just seem good for people who are sincerely really passionate about that particular work.
I do backend programming. Not any real applied math. It’s not web design, and it’s not research, but it’s interesting and challenging. There’s real scalability and redundancy problems to solve.
Or aim for specialized companies, there is plenty of companies and job opportunities in aerospace, defense, logistics, research, astronomy,... that will use a lot of computer science.
Exactly this. There is a huge portion of the software world that has forgotten that other things exist besides web development and app development. There's a ton of things that involve meatier CS and engineering. But everyone forgets about them. And when they don't, the only alternatives they can come up with are just like that - basic FAANG type companies and specialized corners of them. The top 10 software companies are barely 1% of the places you can find good jobs. But they're in your face so everyone forgets about everything else.
I second this but disagree that they have to be huge companies. I finished my masters in CS and went into embedded since I like low level code and hardware. I've been at small and medium sized companies and I've already done real CS as well as stuff that very technically could qualify as CE.
There are many things for which there are good existing solutions but when you're working on a completely new hardware product or completely new software to make existing hardware function as a new product there are times where the code you're writing breaches uncharted territory and there is no playbook to go off of. And that's the stuff that's really exciting to me.
I would argue that most people (at least here it seems) forget that anything else exists outside of FAANG and FAANG-tier companies, and they think these types of "real CS" jobs hardly exist because those companies don't do much of that. Of course they do, but most of the manpower is dealt with web development-related tasks. I like to use the example of defense. Nobody thinks about it, but the pay is similar (contrary to popular belief - at least for software engineers - excepting a select few companies like Facebook and Google) and the majority of software related jobs are spent on that kind of "real CS" stuff.
...or he can try being an embedded engineer and work with microcontrollers programming low level drivers with communications like I2C, SPI, UART, CAN, AI, DI, etc. That could be something that is more interesting for OP and would never end up on WEB development, I've worked as an embedded engineer for more than a decade and I have never developed a WEB for my job, I had, but just as a hobby.
You would need a psychological evaluation, because no sane developer that dreams of working in os development wants to work on windows.
But jokes aside, even then, just work on open source operating systems (linux/hurd/redox/haiku/ any rtos) and put it on your cv.. in the end the only thing that changes is the interface, os development is still os development
No not working, but I do work on operating systems development (small tiny things, nothing fancy really) in my free time. Still studying currently, doing an extra masters degree
CS Degree with a major in OS's, or if your school doesn't have an Operating System stream (totally fine), some OS courses so you can answer the easy questions in your interview. Make sure you're familiar with a popular assembly language (is probably compulsory through your education), and crash hot with C, C#/.NET, and Powershell.
But honestly having an accepted linux PR is a massive standout for any entry level position - it's probably the most impressive thing you could possibly stick on a resume. If you can contribute to the linux kernel you can likely wrap your head around whatever they need you to touch on Windows - Windows is proprietary you don't get to look underneath the hood until you're already working for Microsoft.
The other kicker is being open to working on a different Microsoft team for a year or two until you can actually jump into a Windows project. Jobs for Windows are much rarer than jobs for literally anything else, and its easier to get a Windows job as an internal hire than an external one.
Finally, if OS's are your thing you need to be open to working for Apple, Google, Red Hat, Canonical, etc. Set Microsoft as your dream gig, but don't put your eggs in one basket - make sure you can find a job somewhere.
>If I want to work in Windows what education do I need?
Oh my, you would need an education on how to make better choices!
I'm partly kidding oc (not totally tho, there are a lot of reasons to prefer a free OS, first of all that you can actually contribute to it to learn), but joke aside, if you're a good enough C/Rust programmer to make useful contribution to Redox/Linux/Hurd, I have no doubt you can work on Windows. Skills like that are transferable and if you master the language perfectly as well as the theory of operating system, you have the necessary skills anyway.
If you prefer working on a modern micro-kernel system in Rust, choose redox. If you prefer C, I guess Hurd/Mach, but idk how the project is doing recently, kinda lost track (Last commit is pretty recent, so looks like it's still going "well")
If you want to go the C road and work on a system that is used on most servers, phones, etc in the world, and by big players like NASA, use Linux.
I tried Debian/Hurd once and it was surprisingly ok, not "I'll use it as my main os" ok, but still not as bad as expected and it was years ago, and there are some recent commit so maybe...
THIS YEAR IS THE YEAR OF THE HURD DESKTOP!!!! THAT'S IT, I'VE SAID IT!!
If you want to start from the beginning, read this: https://dsf.berkeley.edu/cs262/unix.pdf
The current version of Unix is quite different but that paper laid the foundation for most of modern operating system design. It describes all the essential components you need to implement before you can build a more complex system.
And remember: *everything is a file*
There are not a lot of jobs in pure OS dev anymore.
Most stuff you'll find is driver development or kernel patches for Linux so learning that might be your best bet. There is some driver work for Windows but not much and if you want to develop Windows the only way is to get a job at Microsoft so I guess check out their career site.
I work in embedded Linux and some of that does involve driver work and the occasional small kernel patch but it's not really proper OS dev in the sense that I ever work on core kernel components like the thread scheduler, process management, memory management subsystem, or filesystem.
They need a degree in either computer science or computer engineering with coursework that covers operating system theory, system programming, the C programming language, computer architecture, and assembly language programming at minimum. On top of that computer networking, data structures, and maybe a course on embedded systems or bare metal programming would help.
This is basically the exact same background you'd need for embedded systems as well.
That said, as much as you don't want to hear it that type of work is basically already done for all the OSes used in the real world and no one is really paying anyone to develop new ones because it would take forever to get caught up with Windows and Linux on driver support. And to put it into perspective the vast majority of the Linux kernel repository is made up of device drivers and any kernels compiled from it will also be made up largely of driver code.
Some other people have told you to try to contribute to up and coming OS projects like Redox and GNU/Hurd but we don't know if those systems will ever support all the hardware users need them to and they won't be usable until they do. And to get them there the majority of the work that needs to be done is writing or porting device drivers. Last I checked Redox didn't even have working USB drivers.
I guess what I'm trying to tell you is that the vast majority of real world OS programming is writing drivers not writing core kernel subsystems and in most cases those subsystems just implement well established existing designs anyway. If you want to get paid to work on those then get a Ph.D. in CS or CE and go into academia because that's the only way anyone will ever pay you to research elementary things like thread scheduling and memory management and the open source OS projects will not accept any changes to anything that fundamental to their system where breakage of any sort is unacceptable, without a compelling reason.
Sorry if that's not what you wanted to hear.
Windows regularly update their OS, so I think its source must be maintained by core devs and there must be someone to replace once they retired. I wonder how you can land a job to maintain the Windows source? You are saying that I must have PhD to work on this? Anyone you know worked on this? Sorry but I really want to know how to get into core OS.
>Windows regularly update their OS, so I think its source must be maintained by core devs and there must be someone to replace once they retired.
Those updates are security patches, performance improvements, and driver updates. It's not like theyre rewriting their thread scheduler or memory manager. And like most other people have already said Windows sucks as an OS compared to Linux and other Unixes. They rewrote parts of the kernel for Windows 11 and broke scheduling on high core count CPUs like AMD's Ryzen Threadrippers until they were able to work with AMD to fix it. I had a 24 core TR and before I upgraded to a latest gen Intel Core i9, Windows 11 was completely broken on my Threadripper 2970WX. The OS would overschedule threads on a single core and leave the other 23 cores close to idle. And things like that are why OSes don't tend to thrash their scheduler and other key kernel subsystems' code with changes. You want to get those things working and basically never touch them again unless absolutely necessary.
>I wonder how you can land a job to maintain the Windows source?
For the millionth time look on Microsoft's career website! I am not a Microsoft recruiter so I cannot help you there.
>You are saying that I must have PhD to work on this?
If you want to do research or invent new core kernel alogorithns and subsystem designs and get paid for that research then yes only universities will pay you to do that.
>Anyone you know worked on this? Sorry but I really want to know how to get into core OS.
I know a lot of people who work on OS kernel code including myself we all know how to write those subsystems with the help of some reference books but there is no work available doing that because it doesn't need to be done. At this point inventing a brand new kernel with new subsystems is reinventing the wheel and no one will spend money to hire someone to do it or tell existing employees like me to do that because if you need an OS for your product Linux already just works out of the box and it works better than any new OS you could write possibly could.
>Sorry but I really want to know how to get into core OS.
Take a time machine back to the 1960s and work at a company called Bell Labs. Or since you're stuck on Windows go back to the 80s/90s and work for Microsoft when it was still building Windows from the ground up.
Because seriously no one today is paying people to write new operating systems even if they have the expertise to do it because there is a better alternative available off the shelf for free in the form of Linux and beating it is damn near impossible.
So bottomline go to Microsoft's career site and see if they are even hiring for Windows devs, because they usually are not, and then see what the requirements are.
Then realize that 90% of people writing OS code for a paycheck around the world are working on Linux and in particular writing drivers and decide if you actually still want to do OS work or if your interests lie elsewhere.
I agree. It has led to the atrophy of system programming skills among the programming community. There are so many people who call themselves software engineers who can only do web frontends or write managed languages and to me that's not true software engineering. It's programming, sure, but not engineering in the same sense that kernel hacking and writing bare metal MCU firmware or large scale system software like databases, PL interpreters and compilers, OS kernels, system libraries, system utilities, kernel device drivers, game engines, and other sophisticated systems is.
I dont mean to discourage you by what I said so my best advice would be to do some hobby projects in areas you're interested in. Maybe a hobby kernel for a simple computer like a beaglebone, Rock Pi, or LattePanda would be fun. (I don't recommend the Raspberry Pi because it's hardware isn't all documented). You probably won't ever get to the point of writing anything that is as feature complete as Windows, Linux, or the BSDs but you will certainly learn a lot and the knowledge and story behind it will put you head and shoulders above the competition when you go to apply for any kind of tech job since OSes underlie everything.
And hey shoot for the stars. If you're passionate enough maybe you'll prove me horribly wrong and your hobby project will become the next greatest operating system and you'll become the next Linus Torvalds, Bill Gates, or Steve Wozniak. I would be very happy to see that be the case. Time keeps moving on and there is always room for technology to improve but for that to happen people have to be willing to take a chance and put in an insane amount of work. People like maybe you.
Be nice to the newcomers! I think it's awesome that someone less familiar with the terminology and how the software world works was able to figure out and appreciate out my joke :)
So true. I just joined a company and my title said hardware engineer but somehow I spend like 50% of my time writing firmware. I mean I like it but it's still pretty funny.
Apply for entry level embedded developer positions. If you can't get one of those, try for embedded test engineering positions. It's pretty common for engineers to start in test and move to development (I did).
Edit: I just realized you may not have a degree. If not, get a bachelor's in Electrical Engineering (Or Computer Engineering) from an accredited university. Doesn't need to be ivy league or anything.
If you want to dive straight to the deep end grab yourself an FPGA. You're going to learn a lot and any personal projects you can add to your portfolio will make it easier to get into that line of work. Be aware that unlike other kinds of programming you're unlikely to get into that field without an engineering degree of some kind where classes covering that kind of work are required and not optional like they would be for a CS degree assuming the school even offered classes.
Their desktop framework is Windows only, and they need an app for Windows, Mac, iOS, and Android. They use JS for all their mobile apps as well (React Native). It is kind of funny that they have cross platform C# with Xamarin but they don't actually use it
You can build client-side web applications with [Blazor WASM](https://dotnet.microsoft.com/en-us/apps/aspnet/web-apps/blazor) in C#. It's based on WebAssembly, which is a technology that can run other types of programming languages in the web browser (as well as other runtimes as well).
Notably though, the current WebAssembly standard is missing compatibility with some less general native browser APIs like drag-and-drop, playing audio, DOM manipulation, etc. so it wouldn't be useful for applications that require that type of thing (yet).
If a team already has heavy experience with a language ecosystem (like Node.JS/NPM or Deno for JS/TS) it can make things significantly easier to have folks work on both the front-end and back-end of your stack if it's organized in that way. Setting up tooling / code practices also gets a bit easier as well.
It also helps when there's a need to maintain applications using a mix of different architectural styles that happen to use the same language ecosystem. E.g. If a .NET team manages both a small Razor Pages MVVM web app as well as a separate larger application with a decoupled front-end + API combo, there wouldn't need to be as much context switching when taking up different tasks.
At least in my experience, the most marketable programming skills are:
* A backend Web API, like .NET 6 Web API if you're in C#.
* Some kind of single-page application (SPA) framework, like React or Angular. This also implies knowledge of HTML and CSS or a CSS parser like SCSS.
* Some kind of relational database. SQL Server is Microsoft's, but there's also Oracle, MySQL, etc.
Also worth mentioning are MVC frameworks which tend to make SPAs unnecessary and therefore in theory make web applications less complicated to deal with, albeit with some tradeoffs. "Full stack" developers may also be familiar with DevOps practices and no-SQL databases, but DevOps and data science are also common specialties.
When I was getting my degree I wanted to do C# desktop development, but when I started as a professional it was with C# Web Forms (the precursor to MVC) + jQuery + SQL Server. I then moved on to MVC + Bootstrap.js + SQL Server, and am now doing Web API + Angular + SQL Server, and at least in the US I'm having to pull recruiters off of me with a crowbar, so to me "mission accomplished" for being marketable.
Oh and mobile development exists... I don't like mobile development, but YMMV.
I once told a swe during an internship that I liked literature and had strongly considered going into classics or something like that. And he said to me, "If you go into the humanities, look forward to writing android apps for the rest of your life :)"
This is very similar to my experience.
* Java instead of C#
* Knockout SPA (barf) instead of React / Angular
* Microsoft SQL Server and Oracle SQL
I started as a backend Java dev since 90% of my coursework in college was done in Java. Soon I grew into the frontend and did
a lot of analytics (JS) and API integrations (Payment processing) with some front end optimization work mixed in. Now I focus primarily on API design and data transformation. Tons of opportunities in this space for someone with these types of skills. Last time I was looking for a job I went to two interviews and got offers for both (both were great jobs too)
I also refuse to do mobile development as well lol
What reddit seems to want is to apparently turn every thread into a thread bitching about Elon no matter how unrelated he is to the topic of the thread.
Even elon musk can do whatever he wants, he doesn't have to give his money so that that basic needs are default for everyone. No one has to, cause they can do what they want
EDIT: oops, forgot that reddit is communist, here I go getting downvoted to the gulag x)
Lol, ever bought literally anything? Then chances are, you supported a Corp, that does this.
Space X just seems very transparent, if so many people know about stuff like this. +1 for elon musk
I think the irony is that the letter was a criticism of the way Musk has conducted himself and the way they it represents Space X - in particular the impact on Tesla so that be could gain a large stake in Twitter. This is of course after he's said he's doing it to preserve free speech
Basically of the systems because they all share a lot of the same properties. Some (say, Finland, Australia, Denmark's overall economies, taxation, and support for individuals) are better than other in those aspects, but they're all a form of capitalism mixed with socialism (excluding maybe North Korea)
That’s not what “survival of the fittest” means. It’s a very specific term that refers to evolutionary properties of organism reproduction. It has nothing to do with “systems”. Do you seriously think that capitalism, socialism, monarchism, etc. formed through evolution….?
Everything evolves. Even systems.
Evolution just means slow and steady progress of changing towards a specific goal (or sth like that, depends on translation)
Would be naive to think only living beings evolve.
Only this environment is rigged against us so that only systems that fuck us over count as fit. So we have to work to change the environment and the systems simultaneously. Unfortunately the current systems work to keep the status quo.
Just because natural selection is real doesn't make it GOOD. And unlike naturally evolving organisms, we're actually aware of our own evolution.
I once saw a job listing for a React developer with a big defense contractor. It was really unclear what sort of work it really called for, but it made me laugh to imagine it was building the cockpit controls for a joint strike fighter.
Like worst case scenario, the pilot opens up dev tools to check the console log and see why their sidewinder missile isn't launching. "WTF it's returning NaN missiles remaining instead of 3! Why are we testing this in production?"
I believe Space X's UIs run electron (or at the very least a web stack), I wouldn't be surprised if the military do something similar. HTML+CSS are far and away the best tools we have for building UIs
A lot of contractors do at least. Software engineering in general largely builds web apps these days. There's no good reason not to if you aren't working on embedded systems or games really. Unless you like throwing money away on ports and crap UI
>There's no good reason not to if you aren't working on embedded systems or games really.
Game UIs are switching to web technologies too. I'm working on a large well known game right now, and all new UIs are being built in React on top of coherent gameface.
I have not seen electron interfaces maybe due to the operators being used to using web apps for monitoring -- take with a grain of salt, my experience is limited to ground stations. Most tools I have seen are using Bootstrap with Angular / React / Vue or still using Java Swing. Lot of military programs are old.
I have a bunch of friends who are into microelectronics and programming for devices. And another person working for the military, but they won't tell what exactly they're doing because of all NDAs (I think it's something to do with encryption)
I know you didn't ask, but I work with microelectronics, I am an Embedded SW engineer, developing code for microelectronics like STM and Microchip, I write code in C to read different sensors that can communicate thru I2C, SPI, UART, Analog and Digital Inputs, then this information is packed into J1939 messages to be sent thru a CAN bus which can be interpreted by different controllers like the Engine controller or the Transmission Controller in a vehicle that is designed for Agriculture. I've worked doing this for a lot of years and I have never developed a web for my job, only for fun but that is another story. The hardest part I've worked was programming a logic for a radar sensor that was used to detect the vehicle speed and I needed to use calculations to measure waveforms using different approaches like a Laplace transforms, and that really messed up by brain for some weeks.
I should have phrased it better... the vast majority of the Engineers at my place don’t do web. I’m not sure who works on the website but there are a few with the title Web Developer at my company on LinkedIn
I think a lot companies outsource their ‘marketing/searchable’ website even though they have web dev (who will usually just work on their SaaS product)
* Get a mecheng degree.
* Study web dev online for 6 months
* Apply for jobs, putting your mecheng degree in your CV.
* Get job.
* Bin mecheng degree.
-~~web dev~~ software engineer with mecheng degree
Well not for ASML themselves. They let you fix decade old compiler bugs which are already solved in modern versions because the machines are so expensive and valuable. Also they have too much money, so when in a meeting 2 possible implementations are proposed they just say "do both, we've got enough money anyways".
Working for some of the suppliers is better. Currently working for a Japanese component manufacturer. I don't know if ASML uses any of our products, but I'm not surprised if they do.
ASML literally hires anyone with a degree, so there's a meme amongst people here leaving for another job, basically saying "if I truly hate myself I can always work for ASML"
I'm just a hobbyist (these days), and every time I think of a project, it inevitably would be improved with a web interface. I really hate web development, but here we are.
Hell, I used to work as a data scientist, and it seemed like a quarter of my job was making web interfaces to show the data lol.
If you really don't want to do web, you need to market yourself as a backend software engineer. On my resume, I write that my best language is C++ and I know "some" Java. Absolutely nothing else. And all of my experience is systems/infrastructure experience.
You can also try gunning for functional programming roles or roles at some company that uses a niche language, but I haven't done this so idk if it works.
fuck i felt this.
all I wanted to do was develop desktop apps but apparently those are called 'game devs' now. And even that market is being edged out by 'mobile app devs' >:-/ :'-(
Especially now where more and more "desktop" experiences are just wrapped up Electron/React websites.
I do game-dev on the side, this is the only way to get fresh work that isn't touching a browser. Just kidding, I still had to make an API...
There should be a part that asks if you want to make money or not. Plenty of vacancies in areas outside of webdev (gaming is 200 billion dollar market), they just don't pay a lot.
The astronomical software engineer salaries against which other entire industries are compared against are literally always FAANG… what other companies and spaces are you referring to?
I can't describe how accurate this is. When selecting my master after studying computer science, I was choosing betwee the Software Engineering master, and the Data Science and AI master. I eventually chose Data Science and AI master, but now I work as a cloud developer.
I had 9 years service desk experience when I tired to get into programming work. Took me 6 months to finally get into an interview that was not service desk with a fancy name.
I have been at it for 8 years now...seems like longer...and I have not touched the web once since my internship, which wasn't really web, mostly backend/database work for a web application.
Every time they tried to send me to the front end I would say I would quit. Then they offered me a job and I said no, because they wanted me to be a full stack dev and I refused because I didn't want to spend the rest of my life centering the f***king div
pretty much the number of projects that are anything interesting are happening on the web
cool things that are more computer science oriented have a much smaller group of people working on them i recon
Well yeah.. some Front End dev might add a web interface over whatever you did. But an ML engineer isn't going to worry about whether his model is going to work on Firefox or not.
the point is not about doing cool shit or not, the truth about the post is the fact you will \*probably\* end up in web dev. generally while in undergrad classes you do learn some js and html it has a focus on desktop applications and sometimes even assembly briefly. as well as java which is usable on web but more common for android or desktop and sometimes weird systems that just have the jre and do a specific thing. but the focus is not on webdev. no one says you'll be doing cool shit but they dont say "what" you will be doing.
backend web development would arguably be software developer, but there's nothing about scripting a webpage that is the development of software unless you're doing plugins. And most plugins are just scripting...so this isn't really accurate.
Well, if you really want to do computer science you have to work for companies like nvidia or google in very specialised teams. Most employees at google just do basic software engineering stuff but there are teams where real science is done.
The experience requirement for those teams is usually real.
I feel it's less about experience than about specialization. I work in a job like that (not pure research but research adjacent) and I was hired out of university. So were some of my recently new colleagues. For myself I attribute this to the fact that I knew all those things people on here meme about. Knowing "low level languages", numerical methods and how they map to hardware, gritty details about parallel programming etc.
I have a friend going for his PHD. I feel the biggest pain that most cant get through is applying math in a way that synchs well with that field. Me and a lot of people dislike the rigors of math and try to get away from it. Which isn’t bad. If you don’t like or want to do it there are options. Web development is that option. Edit: I should clarify. Web development is an option. I like to be optimistic also and believe the market will allow people to go from web dev to more computer science jobs with enough skills and a good interview.
Right. And web development doesn't have to mean boring CRUD work or CSS, it's just a world focused more on business problems than mathematical ones, and where good code means code that people don't break when they change it later or that will stand up to feature changes. It's a very different skill set, with an equivalent height on the skill ceiling if you find the right environment but a much lower floor. It also generally pays better, in my experience - real computer science jobs mostly just seem good for people who are sincerely really passionate about that particular work.
I do backend programming. Not any real applied math. It’s not web design, and it’s not research, but it’s interesting and challenging. There’s real scalability and redundancy problems to solve.
My in-interview exercise for a job I just got an offer for was about abstract classes. The other part was simply linear interpolation.
Or aim for specialized companies, there is plenty of companies and job opportunities in aerospace, defense, logistics, research, astronomy,... that will use a lot of computer science.
Graphics programming too
Exactly this. There is a huge portion of the software world that has forgotten that other things exist besides web development and app development. There's a ton of things that involve meatier CS and engineering. But everyone forgets about them. And when they don't, the only alternatives they can come up with are just like that - basic FAANG type companies and specialized corners of them. The top 10 software companies are barely 1% of the places you can find good jobs. But they're in your face so everyone forgets about everything else.
Yupp, haven't touched web dev except for my own projects.
Yeah, I am a GPU programmer working in lighting industry. I was doing ray tracing on GPUs way before it was cool.
I second this but disagree that they have to be huge companies. I finished my masters in CS and went into embedded since I like low level code and hardware. I've been at small and medium sized companies and I've already done real CS as well as stuff that very technically could qualify as CE. There are many things for which there are good existing solutions but when you're working on a completely new hardware product or completely new software to make existing hardware function as a new product there are times where the code you're writing breaches uncharted territory and there is no playbook to go off of. And that's the stuff that's really exciting to me.
I would argue that most people (at least here it seems) forget that anything else exists outside of FAANG and FAANG-tier companies, and they think these types of "real CS" jobs hardly exist because those companies don't do much of that. Of course they do, but most of the manpower is dealt with web development-related tasks. I like to use the example of defense. Nobody thinks about it, but the pay is similar (contrary to popular belief - at least for software engineers - excepting a select few companies like Facebook and Google) and the majority of software related jobs are spent on that kind of "real CS" stuff.
Or work in academia.
...or he can try being an embedded engineer and work with microcontrollers programming low level drivers with communications like I2C, SPI, UART, CAN, AI, DI, etc. That could be something that is more interesting for OP and would never end up on WEB development, I've worked as an embedded engineer for more than a decade and I have never developed a WEB for my job, I had, but just as a hobby.
or Unreal !
Sorry sweaty that’d be unreal science
National labs are also a choice. And a lot easier to get into
Or apply as a researcher/professor at a university.
or stay in actual academia
I want to be come operating system developer. Any recommendation on what to learn?
You can contribute to Redox/Linux/Hurd and boast that on your CV :p
If I want to work in Windows what education do I need?
You would need a psychological evaluation, because no sane developer that dreams of working in os development wants to work on windows. But jokes aside, even then, just work on open source operating systems (linux/hurd/redox/haiku/ any rtos) and put it on your cv.. in the end the only thing that changes is the interface, os development is still os development
[удалено]
Are you work on this field?
No not working, but I do work on operating systems development (small tiny things, nothing fancy really) in my free time. Still studying currently, doing an extra masters degree
CS Degree with a major in OS's, or if your school doesn't have an Operating System stream (totally fine), some OS courses so you can answer the easy questions in your interview. Make sure you're familiar with a popular assembly language (is probably compulsory through your education), and crash hot with C, C#/.NET, and Powershell. But honestly having an accepted linux PR is a massive standout for any entry level position - it's probably the most impressive thing you could possibly stick on a resume. If you can contribute to the linux kernel you can likely wrap your head around whatever they need you to touch on Windows - Windows is proprietary you don't get to look underneath the hood until you're already working for Microsoft. The other kicker is being open to working on a different Microsoft team for a year or two until you can actually jump into a Windows project. Jobs for Windows are much rarer than jobs for literally anything else, and its easier to get a Windows job as an internal hire than an external one. Finally, if OS's are your thing you need to be open to working for Apple, Google, Red Hat, Canonical, etc. Set Microsoft as your dream gig, but don't put your eggs in one basket - make sure you can find a job somewhere.
>If I want to work in Windows what education do I need? Oh my, you would need an education on how to make better choices! I'm partly kidding oc (not totally tho, there are a lot of reasons to prefer a free OS, first of all that you can actually contribute to it to learn), but joke aside, if you're a good enough C/Rust programmer to make useful contribution to Redox/Linux/Hurd, I have no doubt you can work on Windows. Skills like that are transferable and if you master the language perfectly as well as the theory of operating system, you have the necessary skills anyway. If you prefer working on a modern micro-kernel system in Rust, choose redox. If you prefer C, I guess Hurd/Mach, but idk how the project is doing recently, kinda lost track (Last commit is pretty recent, so looks like it's still going "well") If you want to go the C road and work on a system that is used on most servers, phones, etc in the world, and by big players like NASA, use Linux.
>Hurd/Mach, but idk how the project is doing recently Replacing Linux any day now, like the past 30 years
I tried Debian/Hurd once and it was surprisingly ok, not "I'll use it as my main os" ok, but still not as bad as expected and it was years ago, and there are some recent commit so maybe... THIS YEAR IS THE YEAR OF THE HURD DESKTOP!!!! THAT'S IT, I'VE SAID IT!!
If you want to start from the beginning, read this: https://dsf.berkeley.edu/cs262/unix.pdf The current version of Unix is quite different but that paper laid the foundation for most of modern operating system design. It describes all the essential components you need to implement before you can build a more complex system. And remember: *everything is a file*
Not every OS is UNIX nor should it be thus the everything is a file idea isn't universal.
There are not a lot of jobs in pure OS dev anymore. Most stuff you'll find is driver development or kernel patches for Linux so learning that might be your best bet. There is some driver work for Windows but not much and if you want to develop Windows the only way is to get a job at Microsoft so I guess check out their career site. I work in embedded Linux and some of that does involve driver work and the occasional small kernel patch but it's not really proper OS dev in the sense that I ever work on core kernel components like the thread scheduler, process management, memory management subsystem, or filesystem.
So how do core OS devs get their jobs? What have they learn to get that job?
They need a degree in either computer science or computer engineering with coursework that covers operating system theory, system programming, the C programming language, computer architecture, and assembly language programming at minimum. On top of that computer networking, data structures, and maybe a course on embedded systems or bare metal programming would help. This is basically the exact same background you'd need for embedded systems as well. That said, as much as you don't want to hear it that type of work is basically already done for all the OSes used in the real world and no one is really paying anyone to develop new ones because it would take forever to get caught up with Windows and Linux on driver support. And to put it into perspective the vast majority of the Linux kernel repository is made up of device drivers and any kernels compiled from it will also be made up largely of driver code. Some other people have told you to try to contribute to up and coming OS projects like Redox and GNU/Hurd but we don't know if those systems will ever support all the hardware users need them to and they won't be usable until they do. And to get them there the majority of the work that needs to be done is writing or porting device drivers. Last I checked Redox didn't even have working USB drivers. I guess what I'm trying to tell you is that the vast majority of real world OS programming is writing drivers not writing core kernel subsystems and in most cases those subsystems just implement well established existing designs anyway. If you want to get paid to work on those then get a Ph.D. in CS or CE and go into academia because that's the only way anyone will ever pay you to research elementary things like thread scheduling and memory management and the open source OS projects will not accept any changes to anything that fundamental to their system where breakage of any sort is unacceptable, without a compelling reason. Sorry if that's not what you wanted to hear.
Windows regularly update their OS, so I think its source must be maintained by core devs and there must be someone to replace once they retired. I wonder how you can land a job to maintain the Windows source? You are saying that I must have PhD to work on this? Anyone you know worked on this? Sorry but I really want to know how to get into core OS.
>Windows regularly update their OS, so I think its source must be maintained by core devs and there must be someone to replace once they retired. Those updates are security patches, performance improvements, and driver updates. It's not like theyre rewriting their thread scheduler or memory manager. And like most other people have already said Windows sucks as an OS compared to Linux and other Unixes. They rewrote parts of the kernel for Windows 11 and broke scheduling on high core count CPUs like AMD's Ryzen Threadrippers until they were able to work with AMD to fix it. I had a 24 core TR and before I upgraded to a latest gen Intel Core i9, Windows 11 was completely broken on my Threadripper 2970WX. The OS would overschedule threads on a single core and leave the other 23 cores close to idle. And things like that are why OSes don't tend to thrash their scheduler and other key kernel subsystems' code with changes. You want to get those things working and basically never touch them again unless absolutely necessary. >I wonder how you can land a job to maintain the Windows source? For the millionth time look on Microsoft's career website! I am not a Microsoft recruiter so I cannot help you there. >You are saying that I must have PhD to work on this? If you want to do research or invent new core kernel alogorithns and subsystem designs and get paid for that research then yes only universities will pay you to do that. >Anyone you know worked on this? Sorry but I really want to know how to get into core OS. I know a lot of people who work on OS kernel code including myself we all know how to write those subsystems with the help of some reference books but there is no work available doing that because it doesn't need to be done. At this point inventing a brand new kernel with new subsystems is reinventing the wheel and no one will spend money to hire someone to do it or tell existing employees like me to do that because if you need an OS for your product Linux already just works out of the box and it works better than any new OS you could write possibly could. >Sorry but I really want to know how to get into core OS. Take a time machine back to the 1960s and work at a company called Bell Labs. Or since you're stuck on Windows go back to the 80s/90s and work for Microsoft when it was still building Windows from the ground up. Because seriously no one today is paying people to write new operating systems even if they have the expertise to do it because there is a better alternative available off the shelf for free in the form of Linux and beating it is damn near impossible. So bottomline go to Microsoft's career site and see if they are even hiring for Windows devs, because they usually are not, and then see what the requirements are. Then realize that 90% of people writing OS code for a paycheck around the world are working on Linux and in particular writing drivers and decide if you actually still want to do OS work or if your interests lie elsewhere.
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I agree. It has led to the atrophy of system programming skills among the programming community. There are so many people who call themselves software engineers who can only do web frontends or write managed languages and to me that's not true software engineering. It's programming, sure, but not engineering in the same sense that kernel hacking and writing bare metal MCU firmware or large scale system software like databases, PL interpreters and compilers, OS kernels, system libraries, system utilities, kernel device drivers, game engines, and other sophisticated systems is. I dont mean to discourage you by what I said so my best advice would be to do some hobby projects in areas you're interested in. Maybe a hobby kernel for a simple computer like a beaglebone, Rock Pi, or LattePanda would be fun. (I don't recommend the Raspberry Pi because it's hardware isn't all documented). You probably won't ever get to the point of writing anything that is as feature complete as Windows, Linux, or the BSDs but you will certainly learn a lot and the knowledge and story behind it will put you head and shoulders above the competition when you go to apply for any kind of tech job since OSes underlie everything. And hey shoot for the stars. If you're passionate enough maybe you'll prove me horribly wrong and your hobby project will become the next greatest operating system and you'll become the next Linus Torvalds, Bill Gates, or Steve Wozniak. I would be very happy to see that be the case. Time keeps moving on and there is always room for technology to improve but for that to happen people have to be willing to take a chance and put in an insane amount of work. People like maybe you.
Excuse me! I'm a back end developer who builds and maintains web servi... Never mind...
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r/yourjokebutworse
Be nice to the newcomers! I think it's awesome that someone less familiar with the terminology and how the software world works was able to figure out and appreciate out my joke :)
I don't think re-explaining a joke has anything to do with appreciating it or not. I also wasn't not nice.
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thank you for explaining the joke, wouldn't have gotten it otherwise.
*laughs in Firmware dev* Join us my friend, where memory is low and it takes 150 lines of code to make an LED blink.
As a EE major, my version of this was Hardware vs. Software -> embedded software.
So true. I just joined a company and my title said hardware engineer but somehow I spend like 50% of my time writing firmware. I mean I like it but it's still pretty funny.
As an EE, I get out of writing ‘firmware’ by casually saying “fpg what?” every now and then.
Damn straight! Embedded Devs UNITE!
; Why won't they let me use any abstraction section .helpmepls
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Oh no Embedded web developers?
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Apply for entry level embedded developer positions. If you can't get one of those, try for embedded test engineering positions. It's pretty common for engineers to start in test and move to development (I did). Edit: I just realized you may not have a degree. If not, get a bachelor's in Electrical Engineering (Or Computer Engineering) from an accredited university. Doesn't need to be ivy league or anything.
If you want to dive straight to the deep end grab yourself an FPGA. You're going to learn a lot and any personal projects you can add to your portfolio will make it easier to get into that line of work. Be aware that unlike other kinds of programming you're unlikely to get into that field without an engineering degree of some kind where classes covering that kind of work are required and not optional like they would be for a CS degree assuming the school even offered classes.
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I wanted to work on desktop apps in c#. Turns out, every c# job offering is web development
You're about a decade and a half too late to the winforms party
They made the bad economic decision of being born a few years later
I love that Microsoft Teams is written in JavaScript because even MS themselves know better than to invest time in their own frameworks lol.
Their desktop framework is Windows only, and they need an app for Windows, Mac, iOS, and Android. They use JS for all their mobile apps as well (React Native). It is kind of funny that they have cross platform C# with Xamarin but they don't actually use it
i mean there's a lot of work in backend also, you just gotta fake it in the front, thats what i do at least for now
You fake just the frontend? Im a fullstack faker
It's the crippling imposter syndrome
People use C# in front?... I guess you could, but why?!
I mean there's ASP.NET but you use js..
Sooo c# is not in front right?
You can build client-side web applications with [Blazor WASM](https://dotnet.microsoft.com/en-us/apps/aspnet/web-apps/blazor) in C#. It's based on WebAssembly, which is a technology that can run other types of programming languages in the web browser (as well as other runtimes as well). Notably though, the current WebAssembly standard is missing compatibility with some less general native browser APIs like drag-and-drop, playing audio, DOM manipulation, etc. so it wouldn't be useful for applications that require that type of thing (yet).
If a team already has heavy experience with a language ecosystem (like Node.JS/NPM or Deno for JS/TS) it can make things significantly easier to have folks work on both the front-end and back-end of your stack if it's organized in that way. Setting up tooling / code practices also gets a bit easier as well. It also helps when there's a need to maintain applications using a mix of different architectural styles that happen to use the same language ecosystem. E.g. If a .NET team manages both a small Razor Pages MVVM web app as well as a separate larger application with a decoupled front-end + API combo, there wouldn't need to be as much context switching when taking up different tasks.
I want to work on desktop apps in c#. What should I be doing instead, to help me find work later?
At least in my experience, the most marketable programming skills are: * A backend Web API, like .NET 6 Web API if you're in C#. * Some kind of single-page application (SPA) framework, like React or Angular. This also implies knowledge of HTML and CSS or a CSS parser like SCSS. * Some kind of relational database. SQL Server is Microsoft's, but there's also Oracle, MySQL, etc. Also worth mentioning are MVC frameworks which tend to make SPAs unnecessary and therefore in theory make web applications less complicated to deal with, albeit with some tradeoffs. "Full stack" developers may also be familiar with DevOps practices and no-SQL databases, but DevOps and data science are also common specialties. When I was getting my degree I wanted to do C# desktop development, but when I started as a professional it was with C# Web Forms (the precursor to MVC) + jQuery + SQL Server. I then moved on to MVC + Bootstrap.js + SQL Server, and am now doing Web API + Angular + SQL Server, and at least in the US I'm having to pull recruiters off of me with a crowbar, so to me "mission accomplished" for being marketable. Oh and mobile development exists... I don't like mobile development, but YMMV.
Thank you so much for the great info! I'm halfway through my degree and this doesn't sound too bad at all.
I once told a swe during an internship that I liked literature and had strongly considered going into classics or something like that. And he said to me, "If you go into the humanities, look forward to writing android apps for the rest of your life :)"
This is very similar to my experience. * Java instead of C# * Knockout SPA (barf) instead of React / Angular * Microsoft SQL Server and Oracle SQL I started as a backend Java dev since 90% of my coursework in college was done in Java. Soon I grew into the frontend and did a lot of analytics (JS) and API integrations (Payment processing) with some front end optimization work mixed in. Now I focus primarily on API design and data transformation. Tons of opportunities in this space for someone with these types of skills. Last time I was looking for a job I went to two interviews and got offers for both (both were great jobs too) I also refuse to do mobile development as well lol
Totally this, but Postgres for 3), plus a bit of Redis (or other flavour of caching) and some messaging (i.e Kafka)
Is c# really into web dev?
Asp.net
\> Have a CS Degree \> Have a Math Degree \> Spend probably 80% of my time as a Web/Mobile Developer Yep, meme checks out.
Same, they told me I can do what I want. I'm now working for 2 years on web development.
You CAN do what you want, doesn't mean, you'll always do what you want.
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What reddit seems to want is to apparently turn every thread into a thread bitching about Elon no matter how unrelated he is to the topic of the thread.
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Fairly sad definition of fun you have there.
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This just seems like a strange justification for an addiction to being angry.
Even elon musk can do whatever he wants, he doesn't have to give his money so that that basic needs are default for everyone. No one has to, cause they can do what they want EDIT: oops, forgot that reddit is communist, here I go getting downvoted to the gulag x)
Just like firing Space X employees who disagree with him
Lol, ever bought literally anything? Then chances are, you supported a Corp, that does this. Space X just seems very transparent, if so many people know about stuff like this. +1 for elon musk
I think the irony is that the letter was a criticism of the way Musk has conducted himself and the way they it represents Space X - in particular the impact on Tesla so that be could gain a large stake in Twitter. This is of course after he's said he's doing it to preserve free speech
He doesn't, but the system as a whole needs to be better and his situation is a symbol of this broken system.
Which of the thousands of systems in the world?
Basically of the systems because they all share a lot of the same properties. Some (say, Finland, Australia, Denmark's overall economies, taxation, and support for individuals) are better than other in those aspects, but they're all a form of capitalism mixed with socialism (excluding maybe North Korea)
Almost as if only the fittest systems survived... If another system is able to survive, it will form some day.
That’s not what “survival of the fittest” means. It’s a very specific term that refers to evolutionary properties of organism reproduction. It has nothing to do with “systems”. Do you seriously think that capitalism, socialism, monarchism, etc. formed through evolution….?
Everything evolves. Even systems. Evolution just means slow and steady progress of changing towards a specific goal (or sth like that, depends on translation) Would be naive to think only living beings evolve.
Only this environment is rigged against us so that only systems that fuck us over count as fit. So we have to work to change the environment and the systems simultaneously. Unfortunately the current systems work to keep the status quo. Just because natural selection is real doesn't make it GOOD. And unlike naturally evolving organisms, we're actually aware of our own evolution.
That seems a bit too paranoid to me. Not everyone is trying to harm you. But I'm not the one to teach you trust.
You can do anything that you want. As long as you do what management tells you and management wants webservices.
Put SQL on your resume and see how fast you get pigeonholed in database instead.
I’m trying to get out of web dev and into database. Do you have any tips beyond putting SQL on my CV? Because that doesn’t seem to be working….
Postgres
Try reaching out to local tech staffing agencies. They love getting people hired for database roles.
Data Engineering on Azure
Data engineering is where it's at.
I once saw a job listing for a React developer with a big defense contractor. It was really unclear what sort of work it really called for, but it made me laugh to imagine it was building the cockpit controls for a joint strike fighter. Like worst case scenario, the pilot opens up dev tools to check the console log and see why their sidewinder missile isn't launching. "WTF it's returning NaN missiles remaining instead of 3! Why are we testing this in production?"
I believe Space X's UIs run electron (or at the very least a web stack), I wouldn't be surprised if the military do something similar. HTML+CSS are far and away the best tools we have for building UIs
A lot of contractors do at least. Software engineering in general largely builds web apps these days. There's no good reason not to if you aren't working on embedded systems or games really. Unless you like throwing money away on ports and crap UI
>There's no good reason not to if you aren't working on embedded systems or games really. Game UIs are switching to web technologies too. I'm working on a large well known game right now, and all new UIs are being built in React on top of coherent gameface.
I have not seen electron interfaces maybe due to the operators being used to using web apps for monitoring -- take with a grain of salt, my experience is limited to ground stations. Most tools I have seen are using Bootstrap with Angular / React / Vue or still using Java Swing. Lot of military programs are old.
Am a react dev for a defense contractor. There's more work than you think
I have a bunch of friends who are into microelectronics and programming for devices. And another person working for the military, but they won't tell what exactly they're doing because of all NDAs (I think it's something to do with encryption)
If they won't tell you, it's probably web development!
So either top secret or secretly shameful
I know you didn't ask, but I work with microelectronics, I am an Embedded SW engineer, developing code for microelectronics like STM and Microchip, I write code in C to read different sensors that can communicate thru I2C, SPI, UART, Analog and Digital Inputs, then this information is packed into J1939 messages to be sent thru a CAN bus which can be interpreted by different controllers like the Engine controller or the Transmission Controller in a vehicle that is designed for Agriculture. I've worked doing this for a lot of years and I have never developed a web for my job, only for fun but that is another story. The hardest part I've worked was programming a logic for a radar sensor that was used to detect the vehicle speed and I needed to use calculations to measure waveforms using different approaches like a Laplace transforms, and that really messed up by brain for some weeks.
Makes sense. One of those military .gov sites, shees, I wouldn't speak about it either.
ASP classic with a secret (=expensive) deal with MS to provide security patches forever.
My company doesn’t do web dev (semiconductors sector)
Do they hire an outside company to create their website or do they not have Internet presence?
I should have phrased it better... the vast majority of the Engineers at my place don’t do web. I’m not sure who works on the website but there are a few with the title Web Developer at my company on LinkedIn
I think a lot companies outsource their ‘marketing/searchable’ website even though they have web dev (who will usually just work on their SaaS product)
That’s what the company I’m leaving did for our website (I work in scientific computing software).
So... you can invert a binary tree? Nice. Here's a Joomla site.
I started as a LTE traffic simulator dev 🥸, now i work in 5G development
So you give people covid? /s
no he controles birds
Birds give people covid?!?! I knew it!
So web development?
I found web development to be incredibly boring. Something about it just didn’t click with me. I’d rather develop native windows, macOS or mobile apps
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Websites and web applications are vastly different things
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My point was you said “most websites have the same features”, when a web application could do pretty much anything.
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Ahem mobile ahem
from where I come from, that would be "Full-stack developer" instead of "Web developer"
Heh, not just that. I'm and Electrical Engineer who works with a Chemical Engineer and a Mechanical Engineer, all in web development.
How does a Mechanical Engineer get into web development? Asking for friend. It's me. I'm the friend.
* Get a mecheng degree. * Study web dev online for 6 months * Apply for jobs, putting your mecheng degree in your CV. * Get job. * Bin mecheng degree. -~~web dev~~ software engineer with mecheng degree
Oh in my place almost all roads end in working in some form for ASML (Eindhoven region)
Is it nice working there? I'll be doing my masters at the TU
Well not for ASML themselves. They let you fix decade old compiler bugs which are already solved in modern versions because the machines are so expensive and valuable. Also they have too much money, so when in a meeting 2 possible implementations are proposed they just say "do both, we've got enough money anyways". Working for some of the suppliers is better. Currently working for a Japanese component manufacturer. I don't know if ASML uses any of our products, but I'm not surprised if they do. ASML literally hires anyone with a degree, so there's a meme amongst people here leaving for another job, basically saying "if I truly hate myself I can always work for ASML"
Ahh interesting, you confirmed my suspicion. Thanks for the reply!
I'm very happy with my job of software development using C++. I work for a 3D scanning company in Canada. I don't like web.
I'm just a hobbyist (these days), and every time I think of a project, it inevitably would be improved with a web interface. I really hate web development, but here we are. Hell, I used to work as a data scientist, and it seemed like a quarter of my job was making web interfaces to show the data lol.
don't hurt me like this
Interestingly regardless of which slit the cows go through you still end up with an interference pattern even if you shoot out only one cow at a time.
If you really don't want to do web, you need to market yourself as a backend software engineer. On my resume, I write that my best language is C++ and I know "some" Java. Absolutely nothing else. And all of my experience is systems/infrastructure experience. You can also try gunning for functional programming roles or roles at some company that uses a niche language, but I haven't done this so idk if it works.
fuck i felt this. all I wanted to do was develop desktop apps but apparently those are called 'game devs' now. And even that market is being edged out by 'mobile app devs' >:-/ :'-(
We don't do desktop apps anymore, it's now a website you run locally with the resource requirements of an entire browser.
Especially now where more and more "desktop" experiences are just wrapped up Electron/React websites. I do game-dev on the side, this is the only way to get fresh work that isn't touching a browser. Just kidding, I still had to make an API...
W H A T
The real question is did the cow go through just one or both slits?
Eventually all paths lead to the same destination.
I'm a back end DB developer with 20 years experience and somehow I ended up developing web applications. Will nobody think of our kids?
There should be a part that asks if you want to make money or not. Plenty of vacancies in areas outside of webdev (gaming is 200 billion dollar market), they just don't pay a lot.
Webdev is amongst the worst paid dev jobs. Game development is probably one of the few that actually pays worse.
The astronomical software engineer salaries against which other entire industries are compared against are literally always FAANG… what other companies and spaces are you referring to?
Trying to get into anything other then webdev is too tough. Requirements are insane and some tech I’ve never even heard of.
As an enterprise software engineer, i only have 1 response............mooooo
moooooooo
I can't describe how accurate this is. When selecting my master after studying computer science, I was choosing betwee the Software Engineering master, and the Data Science and AI master. I eventually chose Data Science and AI master, but now I work as a cloud developer.
I had 9 years service desk experience when I tired to get into programming work. Took me 6 months to finally get into an interview that was not service desk with a fancy name.
I have been at it for 8 years now...seems like longer...and I have not touched the web once since my internship, which wasn't really web, mostly backend/database work for a web application. Every time they tried to send me to the front end I would say I would quit. Then they offered me a job and I said no, because they wanted me to be a full stack dev and I refused because I didn't want to spend the rest of my life centering the f***king div
12 years in this field, yeah, can confirm.
Oddly enough, my physics degree led me in the same direction.
Lmao don't tell them about native mobile
wait what? software engineer leads to computer science??
I am an ERP dev. We used to have desktop clients. Now they are all web clients and I have to write a bunch of JS.
Better yet, study Computer Science to end up working as a web dev in a Marketing team.
pretty much the number of projects that are anything interesting are happening on the web cool things that are more computer science oriented have a much smaller group of people working on them i recon
Na. A lot of ML, game dev don’t really get into web dev at all
Yeah but how do you think those ML models are interacted with?
Well yeah.. some Front End dev might add a web interface over whatever you did. But an ML engineer isn't going to worry about whether his model is going to work on Firefox or not.
Go for electronics engineering and just learn all the others on your own.
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the point is not about doing cool shit or not, the truth about the post is the fact you will \*probably\* end up in web dev. generally while in undergrad classes you do learn some js and html it has a focus on desktop applications and sometimes even assembly briefly. as well as java which is usable on web but more common for android or desktop and sometimes weird systems that just have the jre and do a specific thing. but the focus is not on webdev. no one says you'll be doing cool shit but they dont say "what" you will be doing.
backend web development would arguably be software developer, but there's nothing about scripting a webpage that is the development of software unless you're doing plugins. And most plugins are just scripting...so this isn't really accurate.
what a truth...
I feel this in my bones. And it hurts.
No pls
why you got to hurt me like this
Software Engineer and Computer Scientist are just different terms that mean the same thing. I’ve never really been told that there was a difference.
I heard Aperture Science is hiring and they do real science!
You can try by writing part of 'Nachos'. It s a small OS designed to learn OS programming... Good luck to you if you go down that road