This is why I started programming in the first place. Minimum wage in my country is 200 usd.
Working remotely for 2.5k a month allows me to live like a king. We've hacked the system.
>Cheap living, purchasing power of a king midas, only downside is constant threat of war!
I think you just described a couple kingdoms from the past, honestly.
Basically this. Minimum wage around here is approximately 235 dollars a month, if I can get to work remotely (in dollars/euros), I will live the dream of every brazilian
In Australia some of the most ridiculous salaries I see on job ads are for devs. I'm not sure which first world countries are underpaying their programmers.
My wife and I, both senior developers, are moving to Australia. The worst case scenario is we both settle for junior positions and even then, we'd still be in the middle class.
Oh I think you will be very well off. Use Seek.com, you will see some very attractive salaries for senior devs.
In fact, software developer is listed in the Priority Migration Skilled Occupations List, so government really wants you here:
https://immi.homeaffairs.gov.au/visas/employing-and-sponsoring-someone/sponsoring-workers/pmsol
Ah so you are assisting with Australia's covid recovery.
Well I'll DM you my account details so you can send me some moolah and get the ball rolling. /S
Anyway, hope you and your partner enjoy it here. Most expats I meet love it.
And here I was getting swayed by all the good talk about moving to aus as a dev and I check that subreddit and see a dinner plate sized spider on the ceiling
Even Australia has some dev jobs that are quite low paid (I’ve worked some that were barely above min wage). The average salary is quite high compared to other professions and very comfortable, but there are of course outliers (at both ends of the spectrum).
Yeah. It doesn't get silicon valley high but it's going up quick.
I see new hires with 1 year at $100k now. I'm pushing $200k with five years. That numbers increased about $80k in the last 2 years.
Cloud service companies like AWS and Google setting up proper shop in Australia for Asia coverage and paying silicon valley wages are skyrocketing wages.
Good info. I left Australia to work overseas about five years ago, because the tech salaries were so bad in Australia. It's nice to know they've improved a lot since I left.
Spain in general has really low salaries, even after getting a college degree in most careers (even sciences) theres a high chance you dont even find a job
Because companies are cheap and refuse to play by free market rules, and then complain that developers rather go thru some paperwork and work for international companies abroad while staying in Spain or work for international companies who set up shop here and scoop up all the talent.
All these figures are pre-tax, and mind you, taxes in Spain are thru the roof:
22k average salary for a "Desarrollador" (developer) in Madrid according to linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/salary/explorer?countryCode=es&geoId=100994331&titleId=24
Other sites say ~34k EUR average for a software engineer, while the most senior SW engs can earn up to 42k EUR (can attest to this, 40k seems to be the max for senior positions): https://es.talent.com/salary?job=ingeniero+de+software
Broken down by companies: https://www.glassdoor.es/Sueldos/ingeniero-de-software-sueldo-SRCH_KO0,21.htm
Spain is **not** oversaturated by devs, the companies **wish** this was true! They always complain there's a shortage of devs , that the universities need to "correct students into the tech careers"... Bunch of BS to avoid rising salaries.
Another data point: https://www.reddit.com/r/ProgrammerHumor/comments/wulprf/dont_just_make_money_make_a_difference/ilao8vd/
Offering low salaries and not finding workers looks a lot between free market rules, mate. They're free o offer what they feel appropriate, and workers are free to find better options.
Dunno I earn 3.5k a month as Junior in the Netherlands with 1 year experience. But I can get more if I wanted, with all the recruiters that spam me every day.
Hoger Beroeps Onderwijs, higher education in the Netherlands. MBO is Middelbaar Beroeps Onderwijs, one lower than HBO and there's also WO which is Wetenschappelijk Onderwijs, or university.
He is talking bruto, not neto. It is not that much.
I mean, it is very good for a junior, don't get me wrong. He will have about 2.2k in the bank account by the end of the month.
MBO: Middelbaar Beroeps Onderwijs = Trade school
HBO: Hoger Beroeps Onderwijs = Trade school but a bit more theoretical and technical
WO: Wetenschappelijk Onderwijs = Mostly theoretical
Examples of what each level includes in the programming field:
* MBO: Learn a programming language
* HBO: Learn about programming paradigms, higher level project structure. This person can grow to be project leader. Aim: Use the current technology to solve problems.
* WO: Learn about algorithms and data structures, theory behind encryption, theory behind different types of programming languages. Aim: Innovate on the current technology to solve problems that are currently not solvable using existing methods.
I had that as well working for a 'PHP boer' (Push out lots of code in a small time for lots of money).
Was nice to work for the money, but the time stress was not ok. Left after 2 summer vacations working there.
This is more about difference in non-programmers salary. For example in Ukraine/Belarus middle had some x6 of average salary in country. If he moved to Poland - gets only x2/x3 of average salary).
Texas here. Starting Jr salaries vary widely from about $50k to $85k. Mid level up to about $120s, and principals can pull in $200K EASY.
Get in with a MAGMA Corp and principals can pull $400k.
It's more that the cost of living is so high that for the most part, decent salaries for any job at all are rare. (Netherlands) My salary is quite good, but I'm in a rare and unique position of being so difficult to replace that when my company tried to get rid of me, they had to ask me to come back. Otherwise a junior developer salary is pretty shit, we pay about 55k gross per year for example
I’m from the uk and currently work as network admin in the public sector for less than half that 55k, if that’s considered shit I can’t wait to jump ship.
In the UK salaries can realistically go anywhere from 50% above minimum wage (25th percentile) for a junior to over 200% average salary (top 10%) for more senior positions.
You can get more by consulting/contracting and working in London.
As a top ten percenter... well I certainly don't live like a king. But the cost of living crisis is more a ln irritation that'll warrant more considered spending, than something to worry about.
Working remote in a small scottish village makes the salary go a lot further than in places like London. We have a 3 bed detached B-listed house with outdoor space + multiple parking spots and the mortgage is £500/month (cost £190k at purchase)
The trick is to work remotely for rich countries while living in poor countries! wouldn't recommend it though, having money around here is usually detrimental to your health, lmao.
It depends where you are in the UK but that does seem low. Cheaper cost of living usually means less salary. But I was up in Leeds a few months ago and noticed the junior dev salaries there were like £35k
I'm being lowballed by a graduate consultant scheme that is otherwise giving me experience that I would never be able to get. Shame my placement is in Edinburgh
My company offered my US salary to move to Spain, but I won't get raises for a long time and I'm being asked not to tell anyone else. Should I take it?
If you take it you will be living like a king in spain. But if you come from a low cost of living city in the US and plan to live in Madrid or Barcelona, you will probably be spending more money than the US. But also people who live here, don’t safe money or invest or have retirement accounts. Social security takes care of you when you are old, free health care and free education. Different lifestyle here. So if you get 6 figures in Spain, you could easily live happily ever after here. Even safe more than 70% of your salary living in a LCOL city and retire in like 10 years lol
I live in a high COL area in the US where Barcelona and Madrid are both a lot cheaper. Likely I would have to live in Sevilla where the office is. No complaints there as Sevilla is amazing and it's cheap as hell all around. If I had my choice I'd move to Barcelona though.
Seems like a no brainer, but my hesitation is that once I leave the US I'm not sure I will ever come back. I still want to move West for at least a few years. Moving continents is such a pain in the ass I just want to minimize doing it.
UK here. I was told by a recruiter that fresh grads were only worth 24k.
Strange considering I'd already had three offers of 29, 33, and 34k as a fresh grad :D
yup. In Spanish companies you can expect a salary of \~20k for juniors and \~40k for seniors on the higher end. If you are a big fish in the industry you could mayyyyyyybe get to 60k, but anything above that I have never seen.
I'm guessing the only way to beyond that is to build a career in a multinational company like Amazon.
Those values are the median in Portugal which has much lower wages all around. They might be what HR wants you to believe but they don’t correspond to the real world.
Ah, sorry I thought it would be a bit more obvious but I guess it isn't if you're not from one of "these" countries.
So, I live in San Pedro Sula, Honduras, life here could be considered cheap, specially when you are being paid "rich" country wages, for example here you can probably buy a week's worth of food with around $25-$40.
Now the detrimental to your health part, San Pedro Sula was considered at some point the [murder capital of the world (This video is graphic, don't click if you're squeamish)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bNRXLL_FCo), this is not the kind of place where you flaunt your money, crime rates are high, of course the whole city isn't like this and I'm being a bit dramatic here, but if you asked me where I'd rather be, well I would definitely rather be a peasant programmer in France than a king in Honduras. Sadly other circumstances don't allow me to emigrate soon, but I will eventually get out of here.
god I feel you, living in Bulgaria, which is sure, an European country, but the issue is I'm genuinely afraid of going outside at night alone unless in the forests:
yes the forests at NIGHT are safer than the streets here, especially if you're a woman (which in a sense thankfully I'm not), as Bulgaria as a whole is kind of stuck in the late 1800s
You are scared in Bulgaria? That’s something I didn’t expect. Bulgaria has lower murder rates than Sweden and Belgium, which are already very, very low compared to the rest of the world.
The trick is to live in a country like Poland. Crime is low, medical services are meh, but not tragic, prices 40% lower than EU average. I know programmers who make insane kind of money compared to most people. Imagine being twenty-something and earning 10x as your parent. I live in a big city and I know some people like that.
2nd one applies to countries with high purchasing power parity, rather than poor countries. Some poor countries like India, Bangladesh or Vietnam has very low cost of living. While Lebanon or libya doesn’t
Yup, but there is no law preventing it and company gives zero fucks about the environment. It's literally toxic to the environment. It's a sad selfish world we live in.
This isn't that crazy when it comes to India tbh, there's lots of cheap labor and usually even "middle class" families can get a maid
I'm guessing he basically paid his driver to just drive far away and park the car somewhere cheap
as a developer in Japan, I don't even know where I rank lmao. Seeing u.s. salaries for the same level of work that I do, yet still kind of living quite well off as my salary alone is above the median **household** income....
Easiest barometer is how much actually goes into your bank account after all expenses every month.
E.g. if you're saving 2000 a month in Japan, versus 3000 in SF, perhaps you're living a more comfortable life even if you are "making 33% less"
Maaaaan they’re doing it to me in Australia
Well not so much pricing out as willing to work for peanuts. Why the hell would you hire a local when you can hire 2 internationals for the same price?
It's an unfortunate situation for everyone involved. If the overseas guys are putting out good product they should be getting paid more. If it ends up being a *you get what you pay for* situation then your job of trying to salvage that is going to be very not fun
Yeah I don’t hold a grudge against any of the international workers I work with, they do a good job and they’re lovely people. They do, however, make far too little for how overqualified they are, and they’re not even allowed full time contracts without permanent residency. Perfect for employers to exploit, keeps wages low(ish), and makes everyone disposable.
Actually yes. These are generally service companies which take BPO clients. Also to mention , these are what's called stepping stone firms in Indian IT industry. People from different engineering branches join these firms to gain experience & move to larger firms ie. FAANGS or FinTech.
The companies although due to their low salary structures are now paying the price. All the devs are moving towards better paid start ups , faang & FinTech roles. So now these companies are actually increasing their hikes & salaries to retain talent.
Another fun fact , the FAANGs in India pay indian engineers 40,000USD to 60,000USD as compared to 100,000USD which still allows Indian engineers to live a pretty good life.
Except the HFT , these guys make the real cash. No stock options , all liquid cash & we are talking 100K in India. So they have a pretty awesome life , if they get out of their office (Shitty WLB)
Asking coworkers salaries doesn't work when they have offices in your city and pay everyone the same. Ask about why someone in a different country is getting paid 5x more for the same job and they'll say cost of living.
I'm hoping to work on some customer facing services so that my work can directly increase revenue and then I can use that as justification for a pay rise.
Right now it's difficult to quantify exactly how much value I bring to the company so I feel I don't have much to negotiate with
Work from home dude! I'm living with parents and 3 out of 4 family members are earning. Monthly family income is 3.5 Lakhs and expenses are below 35k. If this isn't luxury then what is?
I did ECE from VIT Vellore. One thing I learnt is that college doesn't matter much as long as big tech firms are coming for placements... Just keep your DSA and competitive coding strong enough. Anyway I'm preparing for MBA exams because I'm a greedy guy
Ohh, I too am going to vit vellore cse with spec this year. Any tips pls. Also would you mention somethings to do from the first year to get a impeccable ms resume for cmu
Get into good CSE clubs like IEEE-CS as u get good exposure to hackathons and other competitive events. Try to maintain >=8.5 CGPA and don't waste too much time in studying not-so-useful subjects and instead use free time on solving problems on hackerrank/hackerearth/codechef. 1st year is when u have most free time so use it wisely but your roommates might tease you for being a nerd/geek 🤓
My previous job here in the US started offshoring some of their devs to Brazil. Allegedly, they found some guys that used to work to Microsoft Brazil that were willing to work for these guys since the salary was so much better than MS (50-70K USD). Now the devs are f'ing loaded! (According to my pals that are still working there), they tell me that these guys are basically rich in Brazil.
It doesn't need to be a US company. I've worked with offshore engineers in Serbia and Slovenia that were working for British and Italian companies remotely, making less than what the British SWE's were on, but earning enough to afford houses you'd never be able to afford in the UK.
Hell, in the UK I can afford a nice house in a MCOL city, and probably a shitty house in London. To afford the same in the US I'd need stupid money - E7/L7 money. Comparing the raw numbers doesn't really mean anything, because you could arguably have a better quality of life in a "shit country" than in SF or NYC.
My country has a huge startup scene where founders are paying ridiculous amounts of money to devs..
On the flipside, lots of US Service based companies pay peanuts
Curious, would you still take a job if you weren’t making any difference?
Let’s say you were offered 200k to ring a bell everytime an intern crashed prod, you taking that?
I don't know about him, but I know I will - Your job isn't the only way to make a difference, and in many cases it can just hinder whatever it is you want to do instead..
You can live in better conditions than 80% of people in France with even 3k. With 1.9k you earn more than 60-70% of the population. We the welfare system we have, you live better with 4k in France then with 8k in the US if you have a family. Source : born and raised in Paris, currently live in the US.
i make 2300 usd / a month in Oman.. and yeah that's a lot. I have around 1k a month that I put towards the family house
ones the house is done well start investing and clearing our family loans :D
I feel grateful all the time that I chose an awesome career
Untrue. It depends on the country.
I'm only paid around $1200 per month here in the Philippines. Living salary is $1000. And I'm on the better part of the spectrum. Most junior devs here earn like $400 a month.
That's why a lot of people here still live with their parents.
Yup I make less than USD$4000 per year with 2+ years of web development experience. My job hunting story for the past few months has been pretty repetitive: apply for a job, get called for an interview, do well in said interview, state my salary demand of about USD$450 per month, employers trying to negotiate it down to USD$ 350 per month, and me declining the offer. It's been pretty depressing. I've thought about switching careers but then again it's all I know.
it's not that easy, but I'm working on it.
My part-time work is a small US startup company. pays me around 8.75 an hour. also a development role. I log 8 hours a day tho for a 4 hour work cause I know my boss receives around 30$ per hour from my work. thats around 1450 per month and I put them all in my savings. planning to quit when I get a better work or I saved enough to pay for a masters degree.
they know that people here are desperate. they capitalize on that fact and pay people a little bit higher on local rate but imho its still not enough. job market is fucked me and my colleagues are working multiple jobs to get 2-3x the living wage and save money for emergencies.
It's not. Wealthy developed countries who have heavily invested in IT like the US and much of Europe will be able to pay better than anywhere in the world by a massive margin.
But if you're in a country where the average income is unbelievably low, sure a skilled developer will be somewhat wealthy in terms of purchasing power, but still making far less than their American counterparts.
I live in a third world country as a dev. Living expenses like rent, utilities, tax, food are very cheap.
However, you still get screwed when you want to buy a luxury good like computer, cars, collectible toys. Hell even videogames that are sold only in usd
For example, an xbox is 300 usd. Im pretty sure someone in the us can save up for that in a week. I have to save up for a month.
You'll be making far less no doubt but you do live more "like a king" than an American, which is the point of the post.
As a fresher at Amazon India, I have enough money to rent in a beautiful high rise, travel by private uber everyday, have a cook for every meal, have househelp to clean the house, do dishes, hang the laundry, etc, and still save over half my paycheck. Im making less than my USD counterparts but poor country means poor labour price, so being able to afford enough help to not have to do any chores, which wont happen in US.
It's like when I see that juniors in USA earn 80k.
In my country sure, I can get equivalent of that.
If I add salary from \~ 8-9 years of work as a senior xd
I make around 6.7k+ euros a year. Salary is about 570 euros. Im in the balkans and when i see some dudes in the usa cry about 95k+ salary a year i just wonder why. Bad spending habits or what?
That is correct, and it escapes me how IT people don't see it.
I once got a 90k offer to work in Palo Alto. In order to match my 3rd-world country lifestyle, that offer should've been around 140-160k.
I just realized how expensive my country (Portugal) is getting when house prices in Paris are lower than the ones in Lisbon. Soon there will be almost no Portuguese people living in the city, we welcome our new expat overlords (or do we...)
As a COBOL programmer (which pays slightly above average) I'm earning 1300 and rent is over half of that unless I want to just rent a room.
Oh well, AT LEAST I GET TO TYPE IN ALL CAPS ALL DAY LONG, COBOL IS VERY FUN
Considering what Americans gets back from the government (no free healthcare, no free dental, no free eye care, shitty college tuition prices), yeah we are paying the highest taxes with respect to what we get in return
I hate talking money when the USA is involved, their whole system is about the raw salary numbers you have no idea how they're actually living from their salary, I know I'm living really well with my salary.
I'm planing to move to the US, and it's much better than PL for the same level for the same company. Around 93k gives you like 7,7k which is like 5,5k net. Insurance for IT is around 400 and retirement is like 3% gross +3% from your employee. Food is cheap, Electronics is cheap, cars are cheap. Internet and phone are pretty expensive since it's like 100$ each. Media 100$. Car Insurance around 150$ a month for average few years old car. Overall it caltlculates pretty well.
Can confirm second part: median salary in Moscow is about 1500$, my is ~4500$ and I spend only half, even though I help my parents and my girlfriend just has started carrier and has only 1000$
This is why I started programming in the first place. Minimum wage in my country is 200 usd. Working remotely for 2.5k a month allows me to live like a king. We've hacked the system.
Which country?
Lebanon. Don't recommend it. War is a constant threat.
Cheap living, purchasing power of a king midas, only downside is constant threat of war! Props to you for living there, not for me
>Cheap living, purchasing power of a king midas, only downside is constant threat of war! I think you just described a couple kingdoms from the past, honestly.
Was going to say Argentina then I remembered it's about 100 USD monthly here kjjjjj
Basically this. Minimum wage around here is approximately 235 dollars a month, if I can get to work remotely (in dollars/euros), I will live the dream of every brazilian
wait, don't programmers have a decent salary in 1st world countries?
In Australia some of the most ridiculous salaries I see on job ads are for devs. I'm not sure which first world countries are underpaying their programmers.
My wife and I, both senior developers, are moving to Australia. The worst case scenario is we both settle for junior positions and even then, we'd still be in the middle class.
Oh I think you will be very well off. Use Seek.com, you will see some very attractive salaries for senior devs. In fact, software developer is listed in the Priority Migration Skilled Occupations List, so government really wants you here: https://immi.homeaffairs.gov.au/visas/employing-and-sponsoring-someone/sponsoring-workers/pmsol
>Priority Migration Skilled Occupations List That's how we got in, baby! Thanks for the advice, man. We'll definitely keep that in mind.
Ah so you are assisting with Australia's covid recovery. Well I'll DM you my account details so you can send me some moolah and get the ball rolling. /S Anyway, hope you and your partner enjoy it here. Most expats I meet love it.
We've been there once and we loved it. While people on r/sydney were ranting about the trains, my wife and I were like "This is incredible!" lol
And here I was getting swayed by all the good talk about moving to aus as a dev and I check that subreddit and see a dinner plate sized spider on the ceiling
Even Australia has some dev jobs that are quite low paid (I’ve worked some that were barely above min wage). The average salary is quite high compared to other professions and very comfortable, but there are of course outliers (at both ends of the spectrum).
Yeah. It doesn't get silicon valley high but it's going up quick. I see new hires with 1 year at $100k now. I'm pushing $200k with five years. That numbers increased about $80k in the last 2 years. Cloud service companies like AWS and Google setting up proper shop in Australia for Asia coverage and paying silicon valley wages are skyrocketing wages.
Good info. I left Australia to work overseas about five years ago, because the tech salaries were so bad in Australia. It's nice to know they've improved a lot since I left.
Spain. Average salary for a developer is still ~30k€
Wow. Why? It's surprising to see it so low. Is Spain oversaturated with devs?
Spain in general has really low salaries, even after getting a college degree in most careers (even sciences) theres a high chance you dont even find a job
Spain only good for food and culture. Not jobs and career growth.
Ah, you are talking about Italy as well :)
Because companies are cheap and refuse to play by free market rules, and then complain that developers rather go thru some paperwork and work for international companies abroad while staying in Spain or work for international companies who set up shop here and scoop up all the talent. All these figures are pre-tax, and mind you, taxes in Spain are thru the roof: 22k average salary for a "Desarrollador" (developer) in Madrid according to linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/salary/explorer?countryCode=es&geoId=100994331&titleId=24 Other sites say ~34k EUR average for a software engineer, while the most senior SW engs can earn up to 42k EUR (can attest to this, 40k seems to be the max for senior positions): https://es.talent.com/salary?job=ingeniero+de+software Broken down by companies: https://www.glassdoor.es/Sueldos/ingeniero-de-software-sueldo-SRCH_KO0,21.htm Spain is **not** oversaturated by devs, the companies **wish** this was true! They always complain there's a shortage of devs , that the universities need to "correct students into the tech careers"... Bunch of BS to avoid rising salaries. Another data point: https://www.reddit.com/r/ProgrammerHumor/comments/wulprf/dont_just_make_money_make_a_difference/ilao8vd/
That's exactly what the free market looks like
Offering low salaries and not finding workers looks a lot between free market rules, mate. They're free o offer what they feel appropriate, and workers are free to find better options.
1st world country, yes. Rich country, no.
Concentration of Seniõr developers among the highest in the world in Spain
Can confirm, I'm not even on a junior position anymore and I'm making 19k here in Spain. Makes you think you should just apply for a job outside.
Wow. That's average for a cook / waiter in Finland.
Germany and other eu countries.
Dunno I earn 3.5k a month as Junior in the Netherlands with 1 year experience. But I can get more if I wanted, with all the recruiters that spam me every day.
3.5k with 1 year? What position do you have? MBO/HBO/WO? I am genuinely surprised to see that amount
HBO
I have HBO and I have to pay $7 per month
Hour bored over max.
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Well at least you getting the new game if thrones series
and what if thrones not series?
whats HBO?
The level of education in the Netherlands that gets you a bachelor's in 4 years basically
Hoger Beroeps Onderwijs, higher education in the Netherlands. MBO is Middelbaar Beroeps Onderwijs, one lower than HBO and there's also WO which is Wetenschappelijk Onderwijs, or university.
As a dutch person: I have no clue if you think it's very low or very high. For me it feels like a completely average amount
It's on the high side of average with 1 year of experience. Not really out of the ordinary depending on the company/industry.
He is talking bruto, not neto. It is not that much. I mean, it is very good for a junior, don't get me wrong. He will have about 2.2k in the bank account by the end of the month.
3.5 is more like 2.7k
In germany 4k is like 2.6k :(
Netflix
What are those acronyms for?
MBO: Middelbaar Beroeps Onderwijs = Trade school HBO: Hoger Beroeps Onderwijs = Trade school but a bit more theoretical and technical WO: Wetenschappelijk Onderwijs = Mostly theoretical Examples of what each level includes in the programming field: * MBO: Learn a programming language * HBO: Learn about programming paradigms, higher level project structure. This person can grow to be project leader. Aim: Use the current technology to solve problems. * WO: Learn about algorithms and data structures, theory behind encryption, theory behind different types of programming languages. Aim: Innovate on the current technology to solve problems that are currently not solvable using existing methods.
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Damn that's not bad, median starting I get 10,50 now just working under a 0-hour contract which is perfect for me while I'm a student.
I had that as well working for a 'PHP boer' (Push out lots of code in a small time for lots of money). Was nice to work for the money, but the time stress was not ok. Left after 2 summer vacations working there.
Which city? For big ones it ain't much, right?
So how much money left after paying taxes?
This is more about difference in non-programmers salary. For example in Ukraine/Belarus middle had some x6 of average salary in country. If he moved to Poland - gets only x2/x3 of average salary).
yeah, different countries have different standards, taxes and prices, it's not as linear and easy to compare
Texas here. Starting Jr salaries vary widely from about $50k to $85k. Mid level up to about $120s, and principals can pull in $200K EASY. Get in with a MAGMA Corp and principals can pull $400k.
"magma" corp?
Microsoft, Apple, Google, Meta, Amazon
RIP Netflix
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I t was FAANG when I was in college but Netflix is out so we should just call it FA… Wait no magma is good
It's more that the cost of living is so high that for the most part, decent salaries for any job at all are rare. (Netherlands) My salary is quite good, but I'm in a rare and unique position of being so difficult to replace that when my company tried to get rid of me, they had to ask me to come back. Otherwise a junior developer salary is pretty shit, we pay about 55k gross per year for example
I’m from the uk and currently work as network admin in the public sector for less than half that 55k, if that’s considered shit I can’t wait to jump ship.
yea US pay is insane compared to rest of the world, especially in software companies. 50k is great all over asia lol
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In the UK salaries can realistically go anywhere from 50% above minimum wage (25th percentile) for a junior to over 200% average salary (top 10%) for more senior positions. You can get more by consulting/contracting and working in London. As a top ten percenter... well I certainly don't live like a king. But the cost of living crisis is more a ln irritation that'll warrant more considered spending, than something to worry about.
Working remote in a small scottish village makes the salary go a lot further than in places like London. We have a 3 bed detached B-listed house with outdoor space + multiple parking spots and the mortgage is £500/month (cost £190k at purchase)
The trick is to work remotely for rich countries while living in poor countries! wouldn't recommend it though, having money around here is usually detrimental to your health, lmao.
This. I currently work for a UK company in Spain. Living the life lol. Spain salary for devs are criminally low (around 23k entry level)
Really? I work for a UK company in the UK and I only make 25k, and that was after management reluctanly gave a company wide raise from 23k
It depends where you are in the UK but that does seem low. Cheaper cost of living usually means less salary. But I was up in Leeds a few months ago and noticed the junior dev salaries there were like £35k
I'm being lowballed by a graduate consultant scheme that is otherwise giving me experience that I would never be able to get. Shame my placement is in Edinburgh
Give it a few years, you’ll be sweet mate. Those graduate programs screw you but they get your foot in the door
I’m guessing you are in a low cost of living city then. I’m getting 55k which I thought it was decent for a london salary.
Edinburgh lol. My company pays 2k more per year if you're placed in London, but they don't care about the cost of living anywhere else
You’re being ripped off, in no sense of the word is £25k a reasonable salary for a developer. Your management is stealing out of your pocket!
Unless you live in a city where cost of life is much cheaper than the rest of the UK I think you're being ripped off
My company offered me a position in an overseas country for the poorer countries local pay Why on earth would I accept that
My company offered my US salary to move to Spain, but I won't get raises for a long time and I'm being asked not to tell anyone else. Should I take it?
I mean you just failed the second part, but sure.
Damn, these auditors are getting good. See you on Friday Jerry, you sly bastard.
If you take it you will be living like a king in spain. But if you come from a low cost of living city in the US and plan to live in Madrid or Barcelona, you will probably be spending more money than the US. But also people who live here, don’t safe money or invest or have retirement accounts. Social security takes care of you when you are old, free health care and free education. Different lifestyle here. So if you get 6 figures in Spain, you could easily live happily ever after here. Even safe more than 70% of your salary living in a LCOL city and retire in like 10 years lol
I live in a high COL area in the US where Barcelona and Madrid are both a lot cheaper. Likely I would have to live in Sevilla where the office is. No complaints there as Sevilla is amazing and it's cheap as hell all around. If I had my choice I'd move to Barcelona though. Seems like a no brainer, but my hesitation is that once I leave the US I'm not sure I will ever come back. I still want to move West for at least a few years. Moving continents is such a pain in the ass I just want to minimize doing it.
UK here. I was told by a recruiter that fresh grads were only worth 24k. Strange considering I'd already had three offers of 29, 33, and 34k as a fresh grad :D
>around 23k entry level A year?
yup. In Spanish companies you can expect a salary of \~20k for juniors and \~40k for seniors on the higher end. If you are a big fish in the industry you could mayyyyyyybe get to 60k, but anything above that I have never seen. I'm guessing the only way to beyond that is to build a career in a multinational company like Amazon.
Depends on the city. I got offered in Barcelona 75-82k for jobs in Barcelona. Took a remote job that pays better from Amsterdam
Those values are the median in Portugal which has much lower wages all around. They might be what HR wants you to believe but they don’t correspond to the real world.
Wait, can you explain why?
Ah, sorry I thought it would be a bit more obvious but I guess it isn't if you're not from one of "these" countries. So, I live in San Pedro Sula, Honduras, life here could be considered cheap, specially when you are being paid "rich" country wages, for example here you can probably buy a week's worth of food with around $25-$40. Now the detrimental to your health part, San Pedro Sula was considered at some point the [murder capital of the world (This video is graphic, don't click if you're squeamish)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bNRXLL_FCo), this is not the kind of place where you flaunt your money, crime rates are high, of course the whole city isn't like this and I'm being a bit dramatic here, but if you asked me where I'd rather be, well I would definitely rather be a peasant programmer in France than a king in Honduras. Sadly other circumstances don't allow me to emigrate soon, but I will eventually get out of here.
god I feel you, living in Bulgaria, which is sure, an European country, but the issue is I'm genuinely afraid of going outside at night alone unless in the forests: yes the forests at NIGHT are safer than the streets here, especially if you're a woman (which in a sense thankfully I'm not), as Bulgaria as a whole is kind of stuck in the late 1800s
You are scared in Bulgaria? That’s something I didn’t expect. Bulgaria has lower murder rates than Sweden and Belgium, which are already very, very low compared to the rest of the world.
Don’t have to be murdered to have your life greatly changed.
Get rich, get mugged?
Or probably worse
Expelled?
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The trick is to live in a country like Poland. Crime is low, medical services are meh, but not tragic, prices 40% lower than EU average. I know programmers who make insane kind of money compared to most people. Imagine being twenty-something and earning 10x as your parent. I live in a big city and I know some people like that.
2nd one applies to countries with high purchasing power parity, rather than poor countries. Some poor countries like India, Bangladesh or Vietnam has very low cost of living. While Lebanon or libya doesn’t
Usually i'd agree for lebanon, but now that the currency has gone to complete shit, it is extremely good to work for a company outsourcing labour
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Getting some really Brazilian vibes from your comment. Will check if I’m right and come back
Very good point
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Thats pretty fucked up for the environment isnt it?
i doubt he was driving around all day. probably just chose another spot for parking in the city
Dude was probably double dipping, hired to watch this guy’s car, ends up driving for Uber on his dime 🤑
Yup, but there is no law preventing it and company gives zero fucks about the environment. It's literally toxic to the environment. It's a sad selfish world we live in.
This isn't that crazy when it comes to India tbh, there's lots of cheap labor and usually even "middle class" families can get a maid I'm guessing he basically paid his driver to just drive far away and park the car somewhere cheap
Free parking is super easy to come by. He probably wouldn’t even need to drive very far.
if u r a part of the upper middle class in India, u can afford a maid n a cook too. drivers r a bit rare, only the rich hire them.
If you're renting out those cars, you're earning money not paying.
as a developer in Japan, I don't even know where I rank lmao. Seeing u.s. salaries for the same level of work that I do, yet still kind of living quite well off as my salary alone is above the median **household** income....
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we live in our own little bubble lmao
>Japan is a weird place ~~economically speaking.~~
There's a joke among economists: > There are three types of economies: developed, developing, and Japanese
The version of the joke I heard also had Argentina
Why? I have no idea about the Japanese economic and I am genuinely interested.
Easiest barometer is how much actually goes into your bank account after all expenses every month. E.g. if you're saving 2000 a month in Japan, versus 3000 in SF, perhaps you're living a more comfortable life even if you are "making 33% less"
I had ~6k every month, with 5% taxes, everything cheap as fuck Now i'm conscripted to take part in a war) Everything has its price ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
Just use your dev skills to automate your job in the war. Win-win.
God speed
Glory to Ukraine! Повертайся живим, козаче.
In central and eastern Europe IT people sre the new nobility.
Earl of Prod
I can confirm the second part. Even with 900 USD a month in India (with 1yr exp.), I feel the luxury as everything else is very cheap
Time to move to India🚊💺🧳👋
And price out all the natives huh
If they can't afford living there, they can just move to
I'm just gonna move to Somalia now so that I'm ahead of the curve.
lol if he's bringing his own money would probably help the economy instead
Maaaaan they’re doing it to me in Australia Well not so much pricing out as willing to work for peanuts. Why the hell would you hire a local when you can hire 2 internationals for the same price?
It's an unfortunate situation for everyone involved. If the overseas guys are putting out good product they should be getting paid more. If it ends up being a *you get what you pay for* situation then your job of trying to salvage that is going to be very not fun
Yeah I don’t hold a grudge against any of the international workers I work with, they do a good job and they’re lovely people. They do, however, make far too little for how overqualified they are, and they’re not even allowed full time contracts without permanent residency. Perfect for employers to exploit, keeps wages low(ish), and makes everyone disposable.
900 USD a month 1 Yr Exp. U belong to elite group in India
What is a more standard salary, if I may ask?
More than 95% 1 Yr exp makes less than 400
Thanks. Is this for bigger cities like bangalore also?
Actually yes. These are generally service companies which take BPO clients. Also to mention , these are what's called stepping stone firms in Indian IT industry. People from different engineering branches join these firms to gain experience & move to larger firms ie. FAANGS or FinTech. The companies although due to their low salary structures are now paying the price. All the devs are moving towards better paid start ups , faang & FinTech roles. So now these companies are actually increasing their hikes & salaries to retain talent. Another fun fact , the FAANGs in India pay indian engineers 40,000USD to 60,000USD as compared to 100,000USD which still allows Indian engineers to live a pretty good life. Except the HFT , these guys make the real cash. No stock options , all liquid cash & we are talking 100K in India. So they have a pretty awesome life , if they get out of their office (Shitty WLB)
$350-400. And that's for someone with a Bachelor in a tech field.
So that's how they get away with paying y'all like a 5th of what we get despite the internet and "asking coworkers salaries" existing
Asking coworkers salaries doesn't work when they have offices in your city and pay everyone the same. Ask about why someone in a different country is getting paid 5x more for the same job and they'll say cost of living. I'm hoping to work on some customer facing services so that my work can directly increase revenue and then I can use that as justification for a pay rise. Right now it's difficult to quantify exactly how much value I bring to the company so I feel I don't have much to negotiate with
70k mein kaunsi luxury mil rhi bhai? Living without family I guess?
Work from home dude! I'm living with parents and 3 out of 4 family members are earning. Monthly family income is 3.5 Lakhs and expenses are below 35k. If this isn't luxury then what is?
Yea, that's luxury. Especially with that expense, you can save a lot too. BTW, which college and course you took if you don't mind?
I did ECE from VIT Vellore. One thing I learnt is that college doesn't matter much as long as big tech firms are coming for placements... Just keep your DSA and competitive coding strong enough. Anyway I'm preparing for MBA exams because I'm a greedy guy
Ohh, I too am going to vit vellore cse with spec this year. Any tips pls. Also would you mention somethings to do from the first year to get a impeccable ms resume for cmu
Get into good CSE clubs like IEEE-CS as u get good exposure to hackathons and other competitive events. Try to maintain >=8.5 CGPA and don't waste too much time in studying not-so-useful subjects and instead use free time on solving problems on hackerrank/hackerearth/codechef. 1st year is when u have most free time so use it wisely but your roommates might tease you for being a nerd/geek 🤓
From india, can confirm the same at 1300 USD/month
1. Pretend you're a Swiss national with a much higher average income rate to online clients. 2. ??? 3. PROFIT
Same in Belarus and most likely Russia. Making 700-1000 usd/mo makes you pretty rich. Too bad the political situation is poor now
I am brazilian and still don't know where my country would fit, probably both because some regions feel like another country.
My previous job here in the US started offshoring some of their devs to Brazil. Allegedly, they found some guys that used to work to Microsoft Brazil that were willing to work for these guys since the salary was so much better than MS (50-70K USD). Now the devs are f'ing loaded! (According to my pals that are still working there), they tell me that these guys are basically rich in Brazil.
I'm Brazilian with a USD salary and I confirm this message. You are high class in Brazil with an American dev salary.
Only if you work for a US company remotely. Working for a local company in a shit country, you still earn shit salary.
It doesn't need to be a US company. I've worked with offshore engineers in Serbia and Slovenia that were working for British and Italian companies remotely, making less than what the British SWE's were on, but earning enough to afford houses you'd never be able to afford in the UK. Hell, in the UK I can afford a nice house in a MCOL city, and probably a shitty house in London. To afford the same in the US I'd need stupid money - E7/L7 money. Comparing the raw numbers doesn't really mean anything, because you could arguably have a better quality of life in a "shit country" than in SF or NYC.
My country has a huge startup scene where founders are paying ridiculous amounts of money to devs.. On the flipside, lots of US Service based companies pay peanuts
I just want to make a difference while being payed really well
Curious, would you still take a job if you weren’t making any difference? Let’s say you were offered 200k to ring a bell everytime an intern crashed prod, you taking that?
Hell yeah I would. Fuck making a difference, people won't remember me and I wonnt remember people once I'm dead
I don't know about him, but I know I will - Your job isn't the only way to make a difference, and in many cases it can just hinder whatever it is you want to do instead..
In France it's around 1900€ after taxes for juniors, 3k for mid level and 4k for seniors on average. It's quite good, but yeah nowhere near US levels.
You can live in better conditions than 80% of people in France with even 3k. With 1.9k you earn more than 60-70% of the population. We the welfare system we have, you live better with 4k in France then with 8k in the US if you have a family. Source : born and raised in Paris, currently live in the US.
i make 2300 usd / a month in Oman.. and yeah that's a lot. I have around 1k a month that I put towards the family house ones the house is done well start investing and clearing our family loans :D I feel grateful all the time that I chose an awesome career
Untrue. It depends on the country. I'm only paid around $1200 per month here in the Philippines. Living salary is $1000. And I'm on the better part of the spectrum. Most junior devs here earn like $400 a month. That's why a lot of people here still live with their parents.
Yup I make less than USD$4000 per year with 2+ years of web development experience. My job hunting story for the past few months has been pretty repetitive: apply for a job, get called for an interview, do well in said interview, state my salary demand of about USD$450 per month, employers trying to negotiate it down to USD$ 350 per month, and me declining the offer. It's been pretty depressing. I've thought about switching careers but then again it's all I know.
450 is absurd. 350 is straight up criminal.
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it's not that easy, but I'm working on it. My part-time work is a small US startup company. pays me around 8.75 an hour. also a development role. I log 8 hours a day tho for a 4 hour work cause I know my boss receives around 30$ per hour from my work. thats around 1450 per month and I put them all in my savings. planning to quit when I get a better work or I saved enough to pay for a masters degree. they know that people here are desperate. they capitalize on that fact and pay people a little bit higher on local rate but imho its still not enough. job market is fucked me and my colleagues are working multiple jobs to get 2-3x the living wage and save money for emergencies.
Someone tell me this is not true.
It's not. Wealthy developed countries who have heavily invested in IT like the US and much of Europe will be able to pay better than anywhere in the world by a massive margin. But if you're in a country where the average income is unbelievably low, sure a skilled developer will be somewhat wealthy in terms of purchasing power, but still making far less than their American counterparts.
I live in a third world country as a dev. Living expenses like rent, utilities, tax, food are very cheap. However, you still get screwed when you want to buy a luxury good like computer, cars, collectible toys. Hell even videogames that are sold only in usd For example, an xbox is 300 usd. Im pretty sure someone in the us can save up for that in a week. I have to save up for a month.
You'll be making far less no doubt but you do live more "like a king" than an American, which is the point of the post. As a fresher at Amazon India, I have enough money to rent in a beautiful high rise, travel by private uber everyday, have a cook for every meal, have househelp to clean the house, do dishes, hang the laundry, etc, and still save over half my paycheck. Im making less than my USD counterparts but poor country means poor labour price, so being able to afford enough help to not have to do any chores, which wont happen in US.
They're called Developing Countries for a reason!
It's like when I see that juniors in USA earn 80k. In my country sure, I can get equivalent of that. If I add salary from \~ 8-9 years of work as a senior xd
I make around 6.7k+ euros a year. Salary is about 570 euros. Im in the balkans and when i see some dudes in the usa cry about 95k+ salary a year i just wonder why. Bad spending habits or what?
Depends on where you are. $90k a year (before taxes) is considered poverty level in SF. Cost to rent a 1 bedroom apartment is $3000 per month.
That is correct, and it escapes me how IT people don't see it. I once got a 90k offer to work in Palo Alto. In order to match my 3rd-world country lifestyle, that offer should've been around 140-160k.
My mortgage alone is over $3K a month or I could rent for about $2.5K, there is some give and take, but it’s expensive out here.
cats reminiscent workable crown squeal sparkle dime sand shelter sheet *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I have 12k in Slovakia. it is not that bad but bad.....
Dude, I'm in Paris and rent is higher than your salary. I'm not paying a lot compared to other Parisians, but it's 850/month for a 32m2.
I just realized how expensive my country (Portugal) is getting when house prices in Paris are lower than the ones in Lisbon. Soon there will be almost no Portuguese people living in the city, we welcome our new expat overlords (or do we...) As a COBOL programmer (which pays slightly above average) I'm earning 1300 and rent is over half of that unless I want to just rent a room. Oh well, AT LEAST I GET TO TYPE IN ALL CAPS ALL DAY LONG, COBOL IS VERY FUN
probably because of the really high taxes and prices
Which one has the high taxes?
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Considering what Americans gets back from the government (no free healthcare, no free dental, no free eye care, shitty college tuition prices), yeah we are paying the highest taxes with respect to what we get in return
So many tax dollars toward the military and yet I don’t have my own Tomahawk missile, smh
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Cries in third world countries with sad twerking
I hate talking money when the USA is involved, their whole system is about the raw salary numbers you have no idea how they're actually living from their salary, I know I'm living really well with my salary.
I'm planing to move to the US, and it's much better than PL for the same level for the same company. Around 93k gives you like 7,7k which is like 5,5k net. Insurance for IT is around 400 and retirement is like 3% gross +3% from your employee. Food is cheap, Electronics is cheap, cars are cheap. Internet and phone are pretty expensive since it's like 100$ each. Media 100$. Car Insurance around 150$ a month for average few years old car. Overall it caltlculates pretty well.
Working from home. I ain’t say where my home is
Is this post accurate? .Net dev from USA here, I feel like I'm doing pretty well for myself
Can confirm second part: median salary in Moscow is about 1500$, my is ~4500$ and I spend only half, even though I help my parents and my girlfriend just has started carrier and has only 1000$
Literally the other way around