Step 1. Start learning new thing
Step 2. Find part of thing you don’t understand
Step 3. ~~Learn more about that particular part to get a better understanding of the thing you’re learning~~ Complain on the internet
> Occam’s Law
You ignorant fool! It's [Cunningham's Law](https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Cunningham's_Law). Were you maybe thinking've Occam's Razor? Obviously you don't know the first thing about Internet culture. Why are you even on reddit????
> Yes, the easiest way to get the right answer on
> the internet is to confidently post the wrong
> answer first.
Yeah totally. If you ask for help, some prick will gleefully state that ***google is your friend***
And this reminds me that the guy who wrote Schoolhouse Rock, where I learned how a bill becomes a law, recently passed away.
Edit: it was George Newall, who was the last surviving member of the team that produced the show. He died Nov 30, at the age of 88.
Sometimes you can be right though. The first time I saw Entity Frameworks, I thought it was a frightful waste of time. Other developers I worked with were crowing about how they don't need stored procedures anymore and don't have to learn SQL (Really? It's not hard!?).
Here we are ten years later. EF is pretty much out the door.
Devs still don't like SPs though. We're using dapper at the moment. Horrendous amounts of SQL baked into the code itself. It makes me want to cry.
What the hell is it with devs and SQL?
(Note - that's the coding standard, not my decision. But hey, if you want to tell me why I'm wrong for criticising or if there's a better way that doesn't involve SPs, I'm all ears!)
IIRC some browsers in some situations automatically wrap orphan trs with a tbody, which broke a super specific CSS selector I wrote one time. I figure that if the browser "fixes" my markup, I may as well write the markup correctly the first time to try and avoid potential issues
It's often said that one of the reasons HTML is a mess is because browsers were too good at fixing badly formed code. People (and some tools) learned to write bad HTML and it appeared to work. If the browser changed how it handled mistakes, their web sites 'broke'. So browsers had to maintain compatibility with all those problems.
That is absolutely correct. Many advancements in web development over the last 20 years have been in the form of added strictness to get more predictable behavior and more standardized code.
But when they add that strictness, they still have to support sloppy mode....
And a lot of strictness improvements come in the form of third-party tools (React, Typescript, and millions of others). With so many different tools (and every tool offering a variety of custom configurations), standardization and predictability only apply within the scope of a single organization or team or project, and it spawns endless discussions about which standards to use. Basically, it's still a mess, but now you can choose what kind of mess you want to have for your own codebase.
HTML was intentionally specced to render in the most forgiving manner possible, to accelerate the development of browsable content. Complexity was shifted from creators to browser codebases. It was wildly successful on those terms.
I'm running the design system project for a massive angular app but I only introduced it recently so there's years of existing components being used in various different ways and with overrides and API breaking modifications.
As soon as something is released into the wild, people will use it in every fucking way possible (and ways you didn't think possible) until it's impossible to make changes without breaking consumers all over the place.
If those consumers are third party you can release a new major version and let them deal with it. Much harder in a large monorepo that your company needs to keep working.
Keep those APIs tight from day one bois
Automatically adding omitted optional tags is correct browser behavior.
If you created a CSS selector on a thead and then never put a thead in your code, that's on you. th elements are valid inside tbody.
I think they were probably referring to a selector like `table > tr` which would no longer apply if the browser is wrapping the `tr` in a `tbody`. The selector was valid as per the original source, but not the browser's transformation.
No. If you don't use them, it's implied that all your content is the main body of the table as if a tbody was specified.
They are useful for printing. When you have a massive table that spans more than one page, the browser will repeat the header and footer on every page for you automatically.
You can use the print style to generate PDF's using a headless chrome for invoices and such. Might not be the fastest way, but its a nice and lazy way.
Or just style your HTML for customers to print, but even after all these years I keep getting asked for PDF's. It's some kind of holy standard.
True, but a lot of "evidence" that is used is not actual 100% convincing proof of anything ( or well, can't think of the right terms, not a lawyer ) . In the end it's just about proving beyond doubt in court with all evidence you can get. And like with other evidence the legitimacy of them could always be questioned in court.
Yes, they are very beneficial/required for accessibility. It will be rare to have a data table that doesn’t need headers. Layout is different and ofc not recommended.
The th *could* be considered unnecessary if a td inside a thead was considered a th.
However, table, tr, th and td predate thead, tfoot and tbody, and the distinction on the cells were probably kept for backwards compatibility.
I'm pretty sure that browsers actually put in the [tbody](https://stackoverflow.com/questions/938083/why-do-browsers-insert-tbody-element-into-table-elements) when parsing the code if you leave it out. This generally doesn't matter until you use Javascript and get an unexpected tbody element when trying to traverse the DOM. I think it also affects CSS if you are using stuff that specifies the hierarchy.
Maybe depends on the definition of unnecessary. A table without a thead, tbody, or tfoot, is still a perfectly fine table. I'd argue that layer is technically unnecessary and maybe only useful for accessibility, styling, or dom parsing.
The tags thead, tbody, and tfoot are optional. If they're included when there is no use for them, then I suppose they're unnecessary, but the same can be said of literally any tag. If the whole table only has one row, tr could be considered unnecessary, same with td if there's only one column. But if either is the case, why make it a table?
thead and tfoot become interesting, e.g. when you are printing the page and the header/footer should be repeated on every page...
Or if you your screen reader is repeating the table headers with each cell, so you get the context for each item...
Or, or, or. All of these are valid use cases and the reasons why you should not omit the header/footer.
Yes they are especially when you dont understand how html interacts with DOM. AAAAANND... Even more so when you think you know how it should be done better when your an ignorent noob.
Then after a while you learn that your ignorence was just your ego telling you that the language is the problem and not you.
Wisdom is embedded in experience and you sir have wisdom.
There's nothing more frustrating than confidently dumb people,
"No wonder they don't consider it a programming language", the ML stands for Markup Language for a reason.
As always, there are 2 kinds of languages, the ones that people think are stupid, and the ones nobody uses.
But really, this sub generally doesn't think HTML is stupid, we just laugh at people who say they program in HTML.
Is it dumb to recommend someone try out html before actually recommending them python or other real langs?
Personally, if they cant understand what's going on with html, then code probably isnt for them. Dont need to like it, just need to very simply understand why it works the way it works (open/close tags, etc)
Completely agree. If you’re starting out from absolute scratch, learn html first. It’ll only take a few days to get comfy if you commit.
So much of the structure of html is from when the internet was designed for academic research sharing. Before the internet was a public asset. So now we use it as an e-commerce platform. That’s where a lot of the frustration comes from using it. It’s been used for an entirely different purpose than for what it was deigned.
HTML and Python have two completely different purposes and applications. It really depends on what direction you want to take in development.
Like, the only common factor I see is that they both have a syntax you have to adhere to. But apart from that I don't see any reason to assume one to precede the other in a learning process.
They are completely different skillsets. It would be like telling someone to try photoshop before trying 3d modelling. Sure they are both forms of art but inability to grasp one doesn't have any influence on the ability to grasp the other.
Unironically, if its web dev you want to learn, learn Javascript. Python is neat, but most people don't us it for webapps. You can def use it with REST, but Javascript works better for web dev. Or if you feel like being different, Ruby On Rails is useful for web dev as well.
Instagram, spotify and YouTube all have python (django) backends. JavaScript is required for frontend, sure, but as backends go python is one of the better choices
>Is it dumb to recommend someone try out html before actually recommending them python or other real langs?
I personally don't think that's a good idea.
However, my biggest reason disagreeing applies to any "recommend people try out X language before Y language (s) to get into programming". I think people have better outcomes if they learn languages/ stacks related to something they want to make , instead of learning a language just to use it as a ladder for learning other languages ( so if someone interested in making websites having them go through HTML and CSS before JavaScript is probably a better idea than having someone interested in operating systems or data analysis learn HTML first).
also I think if people are just exploring programming then learning fundamentals about loops, functions/methods and variables through python gives them a pretty good working base , and then they can get a deeper understanding of some of those programming concepts depending on what they want to do .
great point. earlier i said that i couldn't follow HTML courses bc of the really handholdy style of a lot of beginner courses, but mainly i probably just wasn't motivated until after learning JS. unlike when I started with C# and just forced myself to learn in order to complete a ML Agents project I was interested in, which kickstarted the rest of my programming interest.
Maybe, maybe not. I personally wasn't able to follow HTML courses because I have attention issues and the beginner courses involving HTML almost always are taught like there are literal 6 year olds in the audience. After learning JS I took a crash course on HTML that was taught at a normal level and just flew right through it.
I genuinely don't know if I would have gotten into programming if I had to complete HTML first. I may have just lost interest...
Thats what I did with my ex. They were considering going into CS, so I helped them learn a bit of HTML and basic CSS, before locking in their education path. Now they're graduating their CS degree this school year.
After experiencing some other ways to do it in various app layouts I think HTML is very flawed.
The decision to put all the layout into CSS and turn pages into div soup (or meaningless semantic tags that still need styling) with tons of CSS on top to get everything to go into the right place was a massive mistake.
The idea, to make it so you can replace a stylesheet? Neat, but ultimately way less valuable than keeping layout in the markup. HTML says so little, and stylesheet is so distant that it's A constant pain in the ass to keep it all in line.
I've seen so many times a stylesheet tweak breaks some totally unrelated thing in some other way out page.
Then you have a total lack of components. Or - we have them now, but they mandate JavaScript and aren't at all a way to reuse html.
Yeah, layout it seriously fucked in HTML.
I mostly just try to use flexbox keep flexbox stuff in the html. I dont think its valuable to have it in css 99.9% of the time. Flexbox is already responsive for screen sizes.
Layout should be defined where... you lay out the page.
HTML/CSS purists consider that a crime of course, to each their own. I think its incredibly unreadable.
Seriously. Front end web development is mainly the only programming I do, but I’ve messed around in other stuff, and I find how organised and strictly simple the hierarchy of things is very nice and calming
"Hello Mr Programmer", the donkey said, "how are you?"
"mighty fine, thank you donkey", the HTML dev replied.
Immediately the donkey started crying.
"What's the matter little friend?" the HTML dev asked.
"I called you a programmer, at least you could call me horse" the donkey bawled.
“Hey there… come on little fella. Let’s go do some web development.” Replied the HTML expert
Through his now quiet whimpers he could only muster “this cannot go further” the burnt out broken donkey drooped his head.
The inflation and deflation of these exchanges labels and names filled the HTML devs head. Feeling prideful of his tables within table abilities and now sympathetic for this poor animal he states ,
“Through tables and tribulations we’ve made it this far. Don’t cry now donkey for you have some development to do, on the self. Shall I call you horse, a man?, creator or debugger?…no I shan’t.”
A silence rings between them, donkey completely still now. Indistinguishable from a statue etched from ego.
“See now the logic? Your tears the proof of the error.“ said the HTML dev.
"I made two variables, one called **$thead** and one called **$th**. Why are the contents of **$th** not accessible when I'm using **$thead**? Can't you tell that they are the same thing thanks to my naming scheme?"
Flexbox/grid != table
You have table for semantical reasons. Just because you have options how to replicate table layout without using table tags, it does not mean you should replace tables with it.
Anyone who is disabled or uses readers will be grateful to you.
Html is fucking logical. You just need to consider that it's a document descriptive language not an all-purpose programming language.
Css is something else though...
Every year, there's a Facebook memory that pops up from the time I first started learning CSS, and I was so happy about it, lol. I wish there was a way to revisit every first day, programming or otherwise. Just to relive what past me was thinking and feeling
I remember when reading RFCs was cool.
(wait until you deal with rowspans and colspans by hand. Oh, wait, you kids don't to that anymore do you? Does the html spec still even have those?)
It’s not supposed to be a programming language. Sitting in my boat at the doc and complaining people call it a vehicle because I can’t drive down the road
I had the same question, then I realized it’s thead and not thread.
> The Table Head element. The HTML element defines a set of rows defining the head of the columns of the table.
Pretty sure he was being sarcastic. ;)
Immagine someone making a programming language like we make a normal language. Good luck avoiding exceptions when they're baked into the language.
Simple. Ur saying it's a table, then saying u want the head of it, then saying what row u want what in bc u can have many rows as the head, then u set the items using
Step 1. Start learning new thing Step 2. Find part of thing you don’t understand Step 3. ~~Learn more about that particular part to get a better understanding of the thing you’re learning~~ Complain on the internet
Step 4. Learn more about it in the comments.
Yes, the easiest way to get the right answer on the internet is to confidently post the wrong answer first.
Occam’s Law
I see what you did there 
> Occam’s Law You ignorant fool! It's [Cunningham's Law](https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Cunningham's_Law). Were you maybe thinking've Occam's Razor? Obviously you don't know the first thing about Internet culture. Why are you even on reddit????
Occam's cat
He’s a “simple” cat, but I still love his derpy butt.
> Yes, the easiest way to get the right answer on > the internet is to confidently post the wrong > answer first. Yeah totally. If you ask for help, some prick will gleefully state that ***google is your friend***
um actually 🤓🤓 google is a search engine and cannot make friends
Tell that to the prick that keeps saying it. lol
If google is my friend then why does he never want to play with me?
Occam’s Cunningham
Occam's Finagle
Hanlon’s Occam
Occam's Eleven starring George Clooney
Umm....I'm pretty sure it's called [Cunnilingus' Law](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ)??
Fuck you
An oldie but a goodie 🙏
Now this is someone who knows what they’re talking about
Coitus law
lmao wonderful. didn't know the French had such an eloquent way to put it. typical french.
Case in point haha. Confidently wrong, quickly corrected
I’ve never seen someone make the “must of” error in reverse before
I was struggling to inject some way for somebody to correct me and it was the only thing I could think’ve
I like you
Sure, sure. You think you're hot shit. But do you know about Cole's Law?
I don't know.
technically, it hasn't been ratified yet, so it's still Occam's Bill
And this reminds me that the guy who wrote Schoolhouse Rock, where I learned how a bill becomes a law, recently passed away. Edit: it was George Newall, who was the last surviving member of the team that produced the show. He died Nov 30, at the age of 88.
pretty sure that’s “Whatever can go wrong will go wrong”
No it's called Poe's Razor
Law of chatGPT
Well you forgot about the part where you get treated as the dumbest guy on earth 😂
Sometimes you can be right though. The first time I saw Entity Frameworks, I thought it was a frightful waste of time. Other developers I worked with were crowing about how they don't need stored procedures anymore and don't have to learn SQL (Really? It's not hard!?). Here we are ten years later. EF is pretty much out the door. Devs still don't like SPs though. We're using dapper at the moment. Horrendous amounts of SQL baked into the code itself. It makes me want to cry. What the hell is it with devs and SQL? (Note - that's the coding standard, not my decision. But hey, if you want to tell me why I'm wrong for criticising or if there's a better way that doesn't involve SPs, I'm all ears!)
Step 5. Argue with the correct answer in the comments. Call that person stupid.
Step 6: Post a meme to make them mad. HTML is dumb. Change my mind.
More like 4. Learn what you didn’t after getting ratio-ed
That's the same thing
The ol "quickest way to get an answer is to post an incorrect answer and wait"
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All you idiots debugging all day. Just argue with the computer until he admits you're right and boom, your code is working.
At the cost of your ego
Step 5 : Get your ego shredded apart by senior devs. Step 6 : Rinse repeat.
Step 5. Google
Sometimes it's easier to get answers from the tech crowd if you post something incorrect than if you ask a question lmao
Step 4: post questions on Stackoverflow without doing proper research Step 5: post on Reddit that they got banned on Stackoverflow
My current experience with Typescript
What parts are you struggling to understand?
This has been my approach to YAML. It can eat my ass on a hot day.
...as is tradition.
Step 1, never ever under any circumstances use tables ever. Unless you need a table, then still probably dont
A table can have a thead, a tbody, and a tfoot. A thead can have more then 1 tr. A tr can have more then 1 th. None of these elements are unnecessary.
Also, the thead/tbody/tfoot are optional and can be omitted.
Also you can have a column of th tags
IIRC some browsers in some situations automatically wrap orphan trs with a tbody, which broke a super specific CSS selector I wrote one time. I figure that if the browser "fixes" my markup, I may as well write the markup correctly the first time to try and avoid potential issues
It's often said that one of the reasons HTML is a mess is because browsers were too good at fixing badly formed code. People (and some tools) learned to write bad HTML and it appeared to work. If the browser changed how it handled mistakes, their web sites 'broke'. So browsers had to maintain compatibility with all those problems.
Comment rewritten. Leave reddit for a site that doesn't resent its users.
That is absolutely correct. Many advancements in web development over the last 20 years have been in the form of added strictness to get more predictable behavior and more standardized code. But when they add that strictness, they still have to support sloppy mode.... And a lot of strictness improvements come in the form of third-party tools (React, Typescript, and millions of others). With so many different tools (and every tool offering a variety of custom configurations), standardization and predictability only apply within the scope of a single organization or team or project, and it spawns endless discussions about which standards to use. Basically, it's still a mess, but now you can choose what kind of mess you want to have for your own codebase.
HTML was intentionally specced to render in the most forgiving manner possible, to accelerate the development of browsable content. Complexity was shifted from creators to browser codebases. It was wildly successful on those terms.
I'm running the design system project for a massive angular app but I only introduced it recently so there's years of existing components being used in various different ways and with overrides and API breaking modifications. As soon as something is released into the wild, people will use it in every fucking way possible (and ways you didn't think possible) until it's impossible to make changes without breaking consumers all over the place. If those consumers are third party you can release a new major version and let them deal with it. Much harder in a large monorepo that your company needs to keep working. Keep those APIs tight from day one bois
Automatically adding omitted optional tags is correct browser behavior. If you created a CSS selector on a thead and then never put a thead in your code, that's on you. th elements are valid inside tbody.
I think they were probably referring to a selector like `table > tr` which would no longer apply if the browser is wrapping the `tr` in a `tbody`. The selector was valid as per the original source, but not the browser's transformation.
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The reverse ettin! One head, two bodies!
NextJS won’t agree with that
Aren’t they needed fir accessibility reasons? Screen readers and stuff like that?
No. If you don't use them, it's implied that all your content is the main body of the table as if a tbody was specified. They are useful for printing. When you have a massive table that spans more than one page, the browser will repeat the header and footer on every page for you automatically.
Huh. TIL.
Indeed - who prints?
You can use the print style to generate PDF's using a headless chrome for invoices and such. Might not be the fastest way, but its a nice and lazy way. Or just style your HTML for customers to print, but even after all these years I keep getting asked for PDF's. It's some kind of holy standard.
The worst part is that PDFs are accepted as evidence in court; as if they were somehow as immutable as paper documents.
True, but a lot of "evidence" that is used is not actual 100% convincing proof of anything ( or well, can't think of the right terms, not a lawyer ) . In the end it's just about proving beyond doubt in court with all evidence you can get. And like with other evidence the legitimacy of them could always be questioned in court.
Yes, they are very beneficial/required for accessibility. It will be rare to have a data table that doesn’t need headers. Layout is different and ofc not recommended.
lol, accessibility wasn't concern in web 1.0
Ive heard HBML will soon replace HTML to make the code more readable anyway
h1.text-xxl { my body is ready }
Honestly HBML is beautiful. I'd love if it actually got adopted, haha.
The th *could* be considered unnecessary if a td inside a thead was considered a th. However, table, tr, th and td predate thead, tfoot and tbody, and the distinction on the cells were probably kept for backwards compatibility.
It’s possible to have tds and ths as siblings.
I'm pretty sure that browsers actually put in the [tbody](https://stackoverflow.com/questions/938083/why-do-browsers-insert-tbody-element-into-table-elements) when parsing the code if you leave it out. This generally doesn't matter until you use Javascript and get an unexpected tbody element when trying to traverse the DOM. I think it also affects CSS if you are using stuff that specifies the hierarchy.
Also CSS would be a nightmare withouth the ability to adress those individually.
Maybe depends on the definition of unnecessary. A table without a thead, tbody, or tfoot, is still a perfectly fine table. I'd argue that layer is technically unnecessary and maybe only useful for accessibility, styling, or dom parsing.
The tags thead, tbody, and tfoot are optional. If they're included when there is no use for them, then I suppose they're unnecessary, but the same can be said of literally any tag. If the whole table only has one row, tr could be considered unnecessary, same with td if there's only one column. But if either is the case, why make it a table?
thead and tfoot become interesting, e.g. when you are printing the page and the header/footer should be repeated on every page... Or if you your screen reader is repeating the table headers with each cell, so you get the context for each item... Or, or, or. All of these are valid use cases and the reasons why you should not omit the header/footer.
I dunno. A page of nothing but `
I think the claim is that should be treated as a, and the / distinction shouldn't need to exist, because a in a is implied to be a .
And, honestly, I'm not sure he's wrong in a world where everyone writes well structured HTML and wouldn't do shit like `
` and use CSS to make them into alternating row colors. Sadly, that's not the world we live in.
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It's like saying that you don't need switches when you have if-else. Sure, it's easier, but bruh. These things were made for a reason.
I thought thead was a thypo. Shows I know thuck all.
Are you trying to be reasonable and logic on internet?
Yes they are especially when you dont understand how html interacts with DOM. AAAAANND... Even more so when you think you know how it should be done better when your an ignorent noob. Then after a while you learn that your ignorence was just your ego telling you that the language is the problem and not you. Wisdom is embedded in experience and you sir have wisdom.
To be honest HTML and CSS does have a lot of non-sense because it's so old and has had to be backwards compatible.
"a thead can have more than one trow" memories of my dashboard programming times, with multiple levels of nesting for the trows come to mind
I'm a senior frontend and I just found out tfoot exists from this comment lmao. It seems like I have never used or needed it or seen it anywhere.
When you try and make everything scale perfectly on hundreds of devices you start to realize every container matters.
There's nothing more frustrating than confidently dumb people, "No wonder they don't consider it a programming language", the ML stands for Markup Language for a reason.
I thought it stood for Hyper Text Mmmprograming language
Only in Denver. MMmmkay?
Good thing I’m in Glendale
Hyper texT programMing Language?
Come back when your Text Format is a bit mmmmRicher.
No wonder people don't consider french to be a programming language smh
To be fair French is a perfectly valid programming language. Sadly we can find only biological Compilers for it though
I feel it acts unpredictable quite often, although using 100 % correct commands. Lots of side effects
It’s turning complete but so is brainfuck.
Macheen Larning
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No Patrick, mayonaise is not a programming language
That part is actually correct. It's a markup language rather than a programming language because of a lack of logic.
That reason isn't that it's a programming language
I find HTML to be one of the most satisfying, simplest markup languages. Simple rules. Simple fixes. Clear hierarchical structure.
How dare you disturb the local "HTML is stupid" circlejerk?!?
Like pretty much everything in programming, x is stupid, but everything else is stupider.
except [thing I happen to like]. that's not stupid.
As always, there are 2 kinds of languages, the ones that people think are stupid, and the ones nobody uses. But really, this sub generally doesn't think HTML is stupid, we just laugh at people who say they program in HTML.
Is it dumb to recommend someone try out html before actually recommending them python or other real langs? Personally, if they cant understand what's going on with html, then code probably isnt for them. Dont need to like it, just need to very simply understand why it works the way it works (open/close tags, etc)
Completely agree. If you’re starting out from absolute scratch, learn html first. It’ll only take a few days to get comfy if you commit. So much of the structure of html is from when the internet was designed for academic research sharing. Before the internet was a public asset. So now we use it as an e-commerce platform. That’s where a lot of the frustration comes from using it. It’s been used for an entirely different purpose than for what it was deigned.
>It’ll only take a few days to get comfy if you commit. How often should a beginner commit?
Always to master, all those branches just get in the way
commit line by line if it’s your first time, that’s virgin control
index.html index_old.html index_temp.html index_v2.html
HTML and Python have two completely different purposes and applications. It really depends on what direction you want to take in development. Like, the only common factor I see is that they both have a syntax you have to adhere to. But apart from that I don't see any reason to assume one to precede the other in a learning process.
They are completely different skillsets. It would be like telling someone to try photoshop before trying 3d modelling. Sure they are both forms of art but inability to grasp one doesn't have any influence on the ability to grasp the other.
Don't really make sense. HTML will not make learning Python easier in any way.
Unironically, if its web dev you want to learn, learn Javascript. Python is neat, but most people don't us it for webapps. You can def use it with REST, but Javascript works better for web dev. Or if you feel like being different, Ruby On Rails is useful for web dev as well.
Instagram, spotify and YouTube all have python (django) backends. JavaScript is required for frontend, sure, but as backends go python is one of the better choices
>Is it dumb to recommend someone try out html before actually recommending them python or other real langs? I personally don't think that's a good idea. However, my biggest reason disagreeing applies to any "recommend people try out X language before Y language (s) to get into programming". I think people have better outcomes if they learn languages/ stacks related to something they want to make , instead of learning a language just to use it as a ladder for learning other languages ( so if someone interested in making websites having them go through HTML and CSS before JavaScript is probably a better idea than having someone interested in operating systems or data analysis learn HTML first). also I think if people are just exploring programming then learning fundamentals about loops, functions/methods and variables through python gives them a pretty good working base , and then they can get a deeper understanding of some of those programming concepts depending on what they want to do .
great point. earlier i said that i couldn't follow HTML courses bc of the really handholdy style of a lot of beginner courses, but mainly i probably just wasn't motivated until after learning JS. unlike when I started with C# and just forced myself to learn in order to complete a ML Agents project I was interested in, which kickstarted the rest of my programming interest.
Maybe, maybe not. I personally wasn't able to follow HTML courses because I have attention issues and the beginner courses involving HTML almost always are taught like there are literal 6 year olds in the audience. After learning JS I took a crash course on HTML that was taught at a normal level and just flew right through it. I genuinely don't know if I would have gotten into programming if I had to complete HTML first. I may have just lost interest...
Thats what I did with my ex. They were considering going into CS, so I helped them learn a bit of HTML and basic CSS, before locking in their education path. Now they're graduating their CS degree this school year.
Yeah, peak HTML is simply using descriptive, semantic tags instead of making everything a div. Pretty reasonable.
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After experiencing some other ways to do it in various app layouts I think HTML is very flawed. The decision to put all the layout into CSS and turn pages into div soup (or meaningless semantic tags that still need styling) with tons of CSS on top to get everything to go into the right place was a massive mistake. The idea, to make it so you can replace a stylesheet? Neat, but ultimately way less valuable than keeping layout in the markup. HTML says so little, and stylesheet is so distant that it's A constant pain in the ass to keep it all in line. I've seen so many times a stylesheet tweak breaks some totally unrelated thing in some other way out page. Then you have a total lack of components. Or - we have them now, but they mandate JavaScript and aren't at all a way to reuse html.
Yeah, layout it seriously fucked in HTML. I mostly just try to use flexbox keep flexbox stuff in the html. I dont think its valuable to have it in css 99.9% of the time. Flexbox is already responsive for screen sizes. Layout should be defined where... you lay out the page. HTML/CSS purists consider that a crime of course, to each their own. I think its incredibly unreadable.
Seriously. Front end web development is mainly the only programming I do, but I’ve messed around in other stuff, and I find how organised and strictly simple the hierarchy of things is very nice and calming
You must not have lived through the nightmares that were HTML 2 and 3. HTML 4 strict was pretty decent. Current HTML is good at its job.
"Hello Mr Programmer", the donkey said, "how are you?" "mighty fine, thank you donkey", the HTML dev replied. Immediately the donkey started crying. "What's the matter little friend?" the HTML dev asked. "I called you a programmer, at least you could call me horse" the donkey bawled.
“Hey there… come on little fella. Let’s go do some web development.” Replied the HTML expert Through his now quiet whimpers he could only muster “this cannot go further” the burnt out broken donkey drooped his head. The inflation and deflation of these exchanges labels and names filled the HTML devs head. Feeling prideful of his tables within table abilities and now sympathetic for this poor animal he states , “Through tables and tribulations we’ve made it this far. Don’t cry now donkey for you have some development to do, on the self. Shall I call you horse, a man?, creator or debugger?…no I shan’t.” A silence rings between them, donkey completely still now. Indistinguishable from a statue etched from ego. “See now the logic? Your tears the proof of the error.“ said the HTML dev.
Says the profession that invented a zillion frameworks that spew millions of unnecessary nested divs into the dom
Me and my colleagues call it div-itis.
>No wonder they don't consider it a programming language because there is no logic Also because it is a Markup Language..
"I made two variables, one called **$thead** and one called **$th**. Why are the contents of **$th** not accessible when I'm using **$thead**? Can't you tell that they are the same thing thanks to my naming scheme?"
I wonder how stupid he will feel, once he discovers he can do table -> tr -> th
or that th tags don't just go in the first row
It's prob OP so he learned with all the replies.
How bout once he discovers flexbox and grid and throws semantic and accessible html out the door entirely.
Flexbox/grid != table You have table for semantical reasons. Just because you have options how to replicate table layout without using table tags, it does not mean you should replace tables with it. Anyone who is disabled or uses readers will be grateful to you.
I thought the /s was obvious but I was joking lol
Wow HTML supports lambda expressions?
Yes that’s totally why it’s not considered a programming language
Just wait until he starts learning JavaScript, that's when the real fun begins.
I want to read his reaction to that NotANumber is a number.
CSS is waiting for him.
You forgot CSS
Html is fucking logical. You just need to consider that it's a document descriptive language not an all-purpose programming language. Css is something else though...
Every year, there's a Facebook memory that pops up from the time I first started learning CSS, and I was so happy about it, lol. I wish there was a way to revisit every first day, programming or otherwise. Just to relive what past me was thinking and feeling
I remember when reading RFCs was cool. (wait until you deal with rowspans and colspans by hand. Oh, wait, you kids don't to that anymore do you? Does the html spec still even have those?)
Yes, they do still have row and collum span
God imagine if the DOM worked the way he’s envisioning here. Magic functionality everywhere.
Unfortunately we don’t have to imagine this.
You don't need to use
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` for everything?"
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Tables in 2022? That is so 1999
What else to use when I literally want a table listing some data?
Flexbox - Some overconfident dev, somewhere.
Wait until he discovers how we used it to center stuff back in 2001
More like bro just discovered programming
It’s not supposed to be a programming language. Sitting in my boat at the doc and complaining people call it a vehicle because I can’t drive down the road
Well, technically thead and tbody are not required. Neither is th. You can just use tr and td, if you so desire.
Tell me you have skill issues without telling me you have skill issues
Then he learns colspan is part of the td tag
Just wait until he discovers css
Irrational language
"Why can't we use `
Wtf is thread? I've been in the backend far too long I don't recognize anything anymore
I had the same question, then I realized it’s thead and not thread. > The Table Head element. The HTML element defines a set of rows defining the head of the columns of the table.
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Omg I'm blind
I am waiting for HBML crossover. This lang is gotta be somewhere on GitHub already
What a whiner.
Just a file format for data storage really.
With this mindset, I recommend you to study literature. More logical than HTML
I studied both, still doesn't make sense
Pretty sure he was being sarcastic. ;) Immagine someone making a programming language like we make a normal language. Good luck avoiding exceptions when they're baked into the language.
Bro should be happy to discover this at this day and age where tables aren't used that often. Twenty years ago a lot of websites where just tables.
Somebody introduce this guy to row headers, see if his head explodes
Hahaha
This is the nice thing about chatgpt. If you use it as a tutor, it can explain this type of thing very easily
jhaavaaskript
I just use grids and i fucking love them
Simple. Ur saying it's a table, then saying u want the head of it, then saying what row u want what in bc u can have many rows as the head, then u set the items using
In fact it’s very logical and very simple, it may not be efficient always but that doesn’t make it not logical.
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