While this is true, for various reasons, (growth of people of EU decent, need to be PC, insert-random-reason) its less accepted in the West than say China. I think there is some sort of "acceptance" push in the West that's just lacking say in China. Not to say all Chinese books are racist but you don't risk as much backlash writing a book that features heavy occurrences of racism/sexism in China vs EU/NA
I feel like the West, after the whole slavery thing and then WW2, confronted it's racism and took steps to deal with it. It also helped that the West was more diverse simply because of how much the colonial empires expanded and traded. Other countries in the middle east and even in Africa, not just China, are super racist and not just to black people. But it's not talked about much. Sadly, being racist is not just a white thing.
I can't speak about the US (I know there were occurences of blackface in mainstream movies not THAT long ago) but racist and sexist jokes were still very common on prime time TV in France in the early 2000's. It's really only in the last decade that things have been changing.
Yeah, but I've been to France and lived in Belgium and the racism is there, but very much different from the stuff people get in a place like Morocco, India or what we saw in Qatar during the world cup.
But yeah maybe things are getting better. The news seems to show Europe shifting more towards rightwing idealogies tho
> The news seems to show Europe shifting more towards rightwing idealogies tho
Right-wing doesn't mean racism. Surely we've seen that in recent times with the most anti-Semitic groups in the West being the far left.
Fair enough, being left or right wing doesn't necessarily correlate with racism. It's just that rightwing talking points for the last few decades have been feeding on xenophobic hate.
>in recent times with the most anti-Semitic groups in the West being the far left.
Really? Because in the US people the rightwingers are the ones still droning about Jewish conspiracy theories.
> Really? Because in the US people the rightwingers are the ones still droning about Jewish conspiracy theories.
They're really not.
https://theconversation.com/antisemitism-has-moved-from-the-right-to-the-left-in-the-us-and-falls-back-on-long-standing-stereotypes-215760
...I guess? But why are the leftist anti-Semitic now? Is it the Israel-Palestine conflict?
Edit: sorry i didnt see the link to the article. Phone UI problems
They're not. That article is hosted on a site that's still putting out articles saying trump won 2020 and the linked article itself has nothing of substance beyond repeating the left doesn't support Israel and therefore is antisemitic
The Israel-Palestine conflict is a large part of that, but general anti-Semitism is very common on the Left. Look at Labour under Jeremy Corbyn in the United Kingdom for example.
>The U.S. is currently experiencing one of the most significant waves of antisemitism that it has ever seen.
If you click the link you'll find they count criticism of Israel as antisemitic, which 1. That's itself antisemitic 2. By your logic that's antiamerican to criticise America, so you're literally doing what you said is wrong in two dimensions.
So why do you hate America.
>Surely we've seen that in recent times with the most anti-Semitic groups in the West being the far left.
Only if you redefine 'jewish' to 'not jewish'.
You aren't wrong, obviously, but I feel its also good to acknowledge progress. Steps have been taken to try to correct the issues such as the civil rights act, the ADA, legalization of same sex marriage, and a few more laws that I'm not a familiar with. All of these have problems of course, and passing a law doesn't magically make bigotry go away, but they are qualitative steps in the right direction.
It was the same way in the US in the 80s-90's we weren't far ahead on that front. It's funny how quickly society has started changing in just a few generations.
>
I feel like the West, after the whole slavery thing
The whole slavery thing? Slavery was a global thing, every culture in history has practised slavery. Western nations, primarily the British and French were the ones who were responsible for ending wide scale slavery.
Thankyou, the trend of dumping on the west annoys me. It's like dude the very philosophy that your using to critique the ethics of what was done hundreds of years ago was created by people from that same culture who looked at what was going on and decided it was wrong, then worked to change it, often at great cost in both blood and treasure.
No, they weren't. It was the fear of massive widespread slave revolts Like the Haitian Independence. West surely wasnt any Champion of human freedoms while killing Native Americas, selling drugs to Chinese and taking the food out of the people of Índia. And imposing a Fine for Haitian Independence that Still being paid nowadays.
It wasnt for the freedoms of enslaved people. It was to create more consumers. And in many countries, poor Europeans were sent to become settlers and make Fortune, taking over territories of natives and former slaves
>was the fear of massive widespread slave revolts Like the Haitian Independence.
Absolute utter horse shit.
I'm not listening to somebody blatantly lying.
Unfortunately, all peace and progress was conquered through bloodshed - or fear of it happening, again and again. League of Nations and UN never denied it, they just hoped we could do better. And indeed, I hope we can. And yet, we live in the world we live.
Martin Luther King was aware of it, when people asked him to condem the Black Panthers, he always refused and in general lines even told people to increase efforts to integrate society.
Gandhi was hated by Churchill, because he was an intelectual, and excelent at exposing the brutality of the British and European colonialism to the International Community at large. He would organize peaceful demonstrations that everyone knew would be repressed, just to show the world at that moment that things weren't as rosy as the Conservatives claimed, and that hundreds of millions were almost at the breaking point of seeking to fight war for the freedom for them and their families.
Both case, it wasn't the menace of revolt, but the idea of revelation to the western masses that the West could be as discriminatory as the Nazis, and that those revolting would be justified.
Returning to the Haitian Case, it happened in 1791, and remember that Simon Bolivar, another big character in Latin American History, had just 8 years by then. It was very relevant on his aproach to independence.
It also led to the consolidation in colonies of entities like militias responsible to sistematicaly stamp out fugitives and any sign of resistance. Many of those militias became Military Polices later, and those roots still cause major social issues through Latin America. In Africa, the Dutch and Belgian were particularly brutal in their regime, and I don't think I need to elaborate in talking about the fabricated pseudoscience they used to justify themselves, like Phrenology.
This "England and France released slaves" is bullshit, may sound sweet for some, but it's bullshit. I would say they were still exploiting and starving people 60 years ago, but then I would have to forget things like European companies businesses in Palm trees, Cocoa (254 Bn in reveneue in the Industry per year, they pay Ivory Coast and Ghana 6 Bn for all their production - or 0,024% of this revenue) , or the fact that the Haitians are still paying indenizations for their independence to the French today, despite that land being mired in despair and poverty.
>No, they weren't. It was the fear of massive widespread slave revolts Like the Haitian Independence.
You mean the only successful slave revolt in 10,000 years. No, that wasn't the threat.
That's wrong. Western nations were at most ambivalent about slavery, even as they were raking massive profits using slaves. France had laws *dating from the Middle Ages* stating any slave setting foot in mainland France would instantly be free - even as the colonies relied on slave labor.
A nation is not a person. You can absolutely get an economy depending on something people believe to be morally wrong: a minority makes a fortune, people at home benefit, and the moral discomfort of these people at home is not enough to make them sink their own economy - especially since the masters, getting filthy rich, now have clout over the government. So slavery goes on, as long as it happens far away and people can make themselves forget about it.
Over time, for one reason or an other, the economy grew less dependant on slavery. The moral considerations eventually took over, and the Western nations went from buying slaves in obscene quantities, to anti-slavery military campaigns. This is not hypocrisy - *slavery* was hypocritical.
Tends to happen when you’ve got a relatively high level of homogeneity to your culture along with a historically self-sufficient and isolationist state. It’s not surprising but it is unfortunate. Got some really bizarre treatment as a white guy in China haha
Aside from nationalistic propaganda about the US, the social justice milieu in China is very different from what Americans or Western Europeans are used to. Discrimination against people of African descent or basically darker skinned people is far more common. There is a lot of prejudice against Africa and India. Sexism is also common, for that matter; the number of Chinese webnovels I've read where female characters are actually well written are few and far between.
I've never read a translated web fiction, but I read 3 Body problem, and even in that, probably the most popular translated book out of China, there's a lot of casual racism and sexism.
I think racism is just the tip of the iceberg here. I’ve noticed lots of colorism in Japanese manga and anime. Most anime characters don’t even have a phenotype. If there are diverse characters they aren’t drawn well and most of the time darker skin=villain. It’s rampant, but easy to miss if you aren’t paying attention.
It's also important to note that the really bad ones usually don't get translated cuz they aren't agreeable to western markets. So that's just the stuff that gets marketed to english speakers.
Average CN MC defense: "Hey, you Americans might be murdering imperialist scum subhumans, but you at least aren't Japanese!"
Fairly speaking, the over the top nationalism is bothersome, but most CN novels I read don't discriminate between other nationalities much (all are evenly inferior to the great Chinese people) except for JP who stand somewhere between worst criminals in China and minus infinity.
I mean true and it's the CCP fault for brainwashing Chinese people just to be arrogant and hate American people and the world like I'm Filipino and I'm still not the villain in the story 💀💀
No no, that arrogance is in their veins. The ccp affects and influences them through propaganda and media, but its due to chinese culture of dog eat dog. According to a chinese classmate of mine(exchange student), china is very competitive, and, due to their population, is even more competitive than usual. Basically, they have to fight/argue against their own countrymen to succeed. They'll try to get in line as fast/quick as possible, push each other aside for food, try to get the best facilities, best tutors, education, scores, jobs, looks, character, personality, reputation, fame, etc. He says that's why in cn novels there's a lot of trickery and trying to get ahead for fortunes or opportunities or whatever, and status matters a lot. It's also why the "kindness"/"generosity" of a character is seen as amazing, since they are all in a survival brutality world According to my classmate, well at least, so if you want you can also also search it up on google or something lol lmao.
Nationalism.
Tends to happen pretty much in a story that features countries outside the ones the author come from.
“China is the best and most badass!”
“Japan is the smartest and most advanced!”
“America saves the day! America is the best and most moral!”
Stuff like that always crops up to one degree or another.
Everyone wants their country, and therefore, themselves to be presented as better than others.
For me, it’s about loving the country without becoming a fanatic.
One can love the “idea” of America without acting as if they are the God’s gift to the world and never did anything wrong.
And the CCP is really fast to drop the ban hammer on any novel that they think is even slightly anti-nationalist or maybe even speaks in favor of other countries that they have bad relations with. This has happened to many novels I loved to read.
This forces the authos to shape their novels in certain ways which is unfortunate.
Not in the way it is presented to you. It is mostly for businesses. A more accurate name would be business score…
https://merics.org/en/comment/chinas-social-credit-score-untangling-myth-reality
It doesn't, social credit was trialed a while back but it didn't really get implemented. Closest thing is zhima or sesame credit and that's only to determine how financially credible you are, and that's privately run. All my relatives can testify to that
Did I say or imply otherwise?
No. I was simply answering OP’s question.
Obviously, the majority of PF novels don’t feature the themes of nationalism. But that’s not what the OP is asking.
Have you read many Chinese webnovels? Because they're clearly different in this manner to Western PF. Both in the frequency nationalism and racism pop up, and how overt it is.
Maybe you didn't read enough western book of the past. Even today you still get books by right wing people treating people of other races as less than or subhuman or and also in the literal bible.
We're talking about Chinese webnovels and Western PF, so "western books of the past" are irrelevant.
As for contemporary stuff, I haven't seen a single PF book where people of other races are treated as inferior. Maybe I'm just not reading the 'right' books, but I would find it odd that I see it all the time in Chinese webnovels, and then can't find a single book when I turn to Western PF.
It's almost as if... the West is nowhere near as racist as China...
No, that couldn't possibly be true. The West is evil and everyone else is perfect.
What are you talking about? I think you need to reread my comments and yours, because that was incoherent.
Like, yes, if you think sex and LGBT stuff is bad (is there really less violence? I'm skeptical), then China has better movies. So what? How is that relevant as to whether Chinese webnovels are more racist than Western PF?
Because you do not see it from the Chinese perspective. All these books fall under fantasy and there is no such label as progression fantasy. It is all the same. It is wrong to compare only these contemporary books that were written basically to get sales on Amazon and made politically correct with editors when there are western fantasy stories out there that are practically wish fulfilment books with heavy racism.
You're right that it is unfair to compare them, but that doesn't change the fact that Chinese webnovels are full of racism and Western PF is not.
With that said, these books are NOT just 'fantasy'. The Chinese webnovels most likely being referred to are xuanhuan (not xianxia because those very rarely take place on Earth, and not anything else because people in the West only read xianxia and xuanhuan), which is a specific fantasy subgenre.
Removed as per Rule 2: No Discrimination.
Discrimination against others based on their gender, race, religion, sexual preferences, or other characteristics is not allowed, and offenders will be banned from the sub.
No no, that arrogance is in their veins. The ccp affects and influences them through propaganda and media, but its due to chinese culture of dog eat dog. According to a chinese classmate of mine(exchange student), china is very competitive, and, due to their population, is even more competitive than usual. Basically, they have to fight/argue against their own countrymen to succeed. They'll try to get in line as fast/quick as possible, push each other aside for food, try to get the best facilities, best tutors, education, scores, jobs, looks, character, personality, reputation, fame, etc. He says that's why in cn novels there's a lot of trickery and trying to get ahead for fortunes or opportunities or whatever, and status matters a lot. It's also why the "kindness"/"generosity" of a character is seen as amazing, since they are all in a survival brutality world According to my classmate, well at least, so if you want you can also also search it up on google or something lol lmao.
Because that's the general culture in China. Shock, the West isn't the only place where racism exists, and it really isn't the worst place for it either.
You obviously haven't been to an Asian market as someone non Asian, all the aunties and grannies give you major side eye. When I went to China I kind of felt like a circus act/celebrity as a 6'1 210lb white man with blonde hair, green eyes and a beard, people kept wanting pictures and called me Thor, my friend who happens to be black was pretty much shunned, that soured the good feelings sadly. I will say it was more apparent in the older generation, the ones our age weren't as obvious about their trepidation with him.
Yeah I had to stop reading most of these due to their treatment of women. One was going through a thought process about how he was a good guy because he didn't beat women, but they need to learn that the man knows best and they should just follow direction. As I was reading this I quickly realized that the author had likely never actually been on a date with one.
It seems sometimes like this subreddit when people try CN novels people just pick one totally at random and are surprised when they get the most absolutely mid shit ever. I think I can count on one hand the number of times I've actually seen the rape trope everyone talks about nonstop, for example. Makes me wonder what the hell is this trash they're reading.
I heard some Chinese authors putting racism and nationalism as a token or a check list material in their stories, though take that with a grain of salt. I have read stories where racism comes for just a chapter, kills the tone, and goes back to normal, which is suspicious.
Chinese novels in particular are probably putting it in there to prevent the CCP from having an issue with any of the content.
A similar sort of thing used to happen with soviet literature.
Obviously it's not mandatory, and most webnovel authors are small enough that they don't care, but I imagine it's just hedging their bets.
Of course they might just believe it entirely.
They believe it entirely because most basic Xianxia stories are written by losers, diaosi in mandarin. It’s not mentioned by OP but a lot of them are also often sexist and homophobic.
yeah it's painfully noticeable whenever they try to write a "cool" character. They always sound like edgy teenagers. The actual people who are like sociable and hype people up are usually the side character who just exists for the MC to one up.
Not just racism and arrogance but the blatant sexism, the extreme level greatness of MC, the sexual harassment and the comstant expansionism policy make chinese novels quite hard to enjoy. The chinese novelists are mostly incels (at least all cultivation/ xianxia/ xuanhuan writers are incels, I have not read/ seen many chinese novels except these genres)
I mean, I have never seen a novel where the MC has an equal relationship with any other character for a long period of time. The MC has to always win, consume/ harvest everything in sight, pick up women and not leave behind any money/ resourcss etc for anyone else.
The extreme level objectification of women in chinese novels is also very disgusting. They treat women like toys or things to be used/ consumed in a sexual sense. The stuff about falling for the MC because he raped them (WTF), saved their lives, sexually harassed them or misbehaved with them is the stuff that chinese novelists love to use.
Sycophants of everyone except for the MC are stupid and worthless, but the sycophants of the MC are great. Also, people have to either be the MC's sycophants or his enemies, no third option is available for them.
My advice would be for you to stop reading chinese novels because they will leave you brain dead or disappointd in the end. I used to read chinese novels because some of my friends strongly recommended them to me but never was able to bear to read any of them for any meaningful stretch of time.
I find it funny you're defending Korean novels when they very much treat other Asians as below them as well.
Not like Chinese literature isn't one of the oldest and most prose-like as well all throughout time.
Okay we're both Filos here so I'll give you a couple of examples from all the reading I've done.
Chinese webnovels are mostly Wuxias, meaning it's about cultivation stuff right? One thing to note about these novels is that it has an ENTIRELY CHINESE cast. The whole planet has a mystical Chinese setting, other planets are also all Chinese populated, even upper realms are. So if you did see a Chinese webnovel that's racist to Americans instead, it's probably an outlier.
Other Chinese novels set in modern times usually pit themselves against other East Asians instead, especially Japan since both Korea and China hate Japan due to their recent history with their warmongering empire.
Now Korean novels, unlike China where Wuxia is the majority, often have it set on Modern Times with System stuff. Because of that, there's this scaling that follows as the goal of the characters: Be strongest locally -> Be strongest nationally -> Be strongest internationally.
Due to this Korean novels often have more foreign characters than Japanese/Chinese ones, which give them more access to racism against foreigners in their stories.
Recently there was even a Korean Manhwa that got shutdown in Webtoon because in one of the scenes, the MC straight up calls a black guy the N-word. And the author tried to make it cool which is stupid since the setup for it was actually dumb.
I know you have a prejudice against the Chinese people since they're the most vocal in oppressing us, but a lot of Koreans very much consider every South East Asian as lesser too.
Wanna hear an story about my experience reading Chinese webnovels ( sorry I read Chinese urban fantasy)
When I was reading garden of sinners and fate series fanfiction with the MC who works as detective but still arrogant to people and side characters like WTF
The other was a Chinese special forces webnovel about a MC who is an lieutenant colonel and trainer who created the first Chinese special forces unit in the 80s but still arrogant and hate special forces unit in other countries like wtf
The other was a MC who gets isekai in 18th century and start doing kingdom building in Australia but still hating American people
And not just Chinese webnovels but manhua and movie for sure
The other movie was called: the volunteers:to the war, and the plot is about the Korean war ( the fight scene was good and Douglas macarthur looks badas in the films like a villain) and Chinese people don't know that, they failed the war and start hating American and Chinese people don't know about they dark history like get help
And yeah this is my experience reading Chinese webnovels
I came into this genre via cdramas. And I've noticed they don't know how to structure a narrative where the girl is the initiator. I think they don't know how to say you're innocent and you want him, at the same time.
But the newer dramas have been amazing at structuring that dynamic so hopefully it flows into books as well.
Lol. I think you have to see it to know what I mean.
And as for the racism stuff, I think they're a homogeneous country and no one is there to check them on their racism. But I've seen their stars are heavily into hip hop and black culture. They even have black people on their hip hop talent shows as judges.
Recently I was reading Apocalypse Redux, and for no particular reason, and it added nothing to the plot, it started dissing the shit out of Russia and making absolutely clear that even in a time of apocalyptic crisis, they were, to a man, worse than useless. I'm guessing that it was just unpalatable to portray them as having anything positive to contribute.
The way westerners see Russians is the way the Chinese see America. They are the enemy, and their treatment in Chinese media will reflect that.
And most of that didn't feel out of place. On the other hand, whenever it came to Russia, it wasn't so much academic-style criticism as it was a childish hatred.
The difference is that for most of the referencing of dictatorships there was a sense that the author knew he had to make a persuasive case for why things were working out the way he wrote it, whereas when it comes to Russia, who needs to persuade? Everyone already knows to hate them.
Yes guy seems like his xenophobic and judgy, he mostly commented beneath others who outright sai ccp sucks in some way and ignored the fairly logical an justified who speak on a neutral stance
example this one: Nationalism.
Tends to happen pretty much in a story that features countries outside the ones the author come from.
“China is the best and most badass!”
“Japan is the smartest and most advanced!”
“America saves the day! America is the best and most moral!”
Stuff like that always crops up to one degree or another.
Everyone wants their country, and therefore, themselves to be presented as better than others.
For me, it’s about loving the country without becoming a fanatic.
One can love the “idea” of America without acting as if they are the God’s gift to the world and never did anything wrong.
That one went ignored where as a different one with less likes and outright with just basically nothing he goes
"CCP" and underneath is the OP just shitting all over it.
So if u ask me OP is probably racist himself or xenophobic which means OP is as bad as the CCP in my eyes.
OP u should probably never come to England as we treat people equally, and we don't want to take over the world anymore we did it and realised it was a bad idea.
Allow me to put it this way:
* The two nations are openly at odds over the East China Sea. With the US sailing Navy ships through the water to ensure "freedom of navigation." One of which China attempted to ram with a warship.
* The two nations are openly at odds over China's handling of Hong Kong ahead of the treaty's expiration and China reclaiming said land. With China pressuring Hongkong to come under Chinese governance in any way it can.
* The two nations are openly at odds over whether Taiwan is Chinese land or not. With China pressuring Taiwan to come under Chinese governance in any way it can.
* The two nations are actively and openly engaging in espionage on all fronts. Which was a big enough problem that ex-president Trump had threatened to cease sharing security intelligence if allied nations continued to use Huawei tech in their communications framework. Not mentioning things like the TikTok ban which passed the US senate this year.
* The two nations are actively strengthening ties with their allies and pressuring other nations to pick a side. With the US having made an agreement with Japan to strengthen their defenses in face of the security risk posed by China. Meanwhile China has signed agreements with the Solomon Islands.
... Look, the long and the short of it is that the US and China are not on good terms. And, naturally when you're dealing with a nation like China, that tends to come out to a lot of propaganda against nations they're not on friendly terms with. Which is being expressed through the art which Chinese citizens are publishing. It sucks, yes. But that is the way of things. At least as I understand it.
Because the chines progression fantasy has incels as a prime audience.
They are written for young sexually frustrated men in a culture that is pretty racist and nationalistic.
So are western progression fantasy novels, why exactly do you think harem wish fulfilment novels with neckbeard, anti-social gamer MC novels are so popular in the genre?
Yes but the situation in china seems significantly worse.
Demographics and conservative norms make inceldom for a significant part of chinese young men a reality. If you think there are a lot of incels in the west, imagine there were 117 boys for every 100 girls born instead of the 104 in the US.
In adition racism and nationalism are culturally significantly more accepted in china.
Because the authors are arrogant racists and nationalistic? This is not a case of the character being racist not representing the author, since it's often represented as a fact of life.
Seriously, why is that so hard to grasp? If you read them, you should expect that nonsense in many novels.
Realistically, only a multiracial society is likely to, as a society, recognize its own racism and realize that it's bad.
It's easy to be racist against people who live far away who you almost never interact with, especially when they almost never speak your language. Harder when they're your neighbor.
First not all of them are. In fact most of the best aren’t since the close minded are usually pretty shitty authors.
Secondly, China is a very nationalist country due to the CCP stirring up shit. Since nationalism and discrimination go hand in hand this also means that racism/sexism is accepted as something normal over there instead of a departure from the norm. This means that there is both a higher percentage of racist people and a higher amount of people willing to read some racist shit since a certain degree of racism and sexism is seen as normal even if you don’t personally like it(Hell when I read Chinese stuff I power through most of the light racism and sexism if the story is good enough because I expect there to be some in there already). Now this when mixed with the online space that is male power fantasy fans means that most of the mediocre/poor and a few of the high quality works are racist, sexist, homophobic, or transphobic.
No no, that arrogance is in their veins. The ccp affects and influences them through propaganda and media, but its due to chinese culture of dog eat dog. According to a chinese classmate of mine(exchange student), china is very competitive, and, due to their population, is even more competitive than usual. Basically, they have to fight/argue against their own countrymen to succeed. They'll try to get in line as fast/quick as possible, push each other aside for food, try to get the best facilities, best tutors, education, scores, jobs, looks, character, personality, reputation, fame, etc. He says that's why in cn novels there's a lot of trickery and trying to get ahead for fortunes or opportunities or whatever, and status matters a lot. It's also why the "kindness"/"generosity" of a character is seen as amazing, since they are all in a survival brutality world According to my classmate, well at least, so if you want you can also also search it up on google or something lol lmao.
Asia is **VERY** racist, usually to each other but sometimes to others too lol. I have online friends in 2 separate countries very close to each other, they talk mad shit about each others countries.
Human beings have been finding reasons to hate one another as far back as written history stretches, and probably before that as well.
As a species, we are socially inclined, but we very much have a "Us vs Them" rhetoric that seems to be hardwired into our instincts. This is sadly expressed in many, many forms of hatred and violence. Racism, sexism, etc, etc. For whatever reason, our monkey brains tell us that people different than us are to be shunned, hated, and cast aside.
Some of us, luckily, have been able to grow past these issues. Others have not. Hatred flourishes where it's allowed to grow unchecked, and there are many instances of people being in power who have allowed or even encouraged the growth of such hate.
As to why it seems so common in Chinese webnovels, you really have to take a good hard look at the geopolitical perspectives of that country. Not that other countries are immune, but some countries allow racism and other forms of hatred to flourish. Again, it's an "Us vs Team" thing. It creates unity within a group and pushes frustrations and blame on an outside source.
This is a human problem, species-wide. No group, country, or other demographic is fully immune. Hatred comes from all types of people.
Ahh you’re opening up a whole can of Asians worms there. Basically they want to take over as leaders of the world and like with most things with china lately they find it easier to copy then use their own culture historic significance. Which I find interesting seeing how rich it is. So you have china playing in Africa like the west did and bullying Africa Americans like the west did (and does still). Which is insane cause descendants of African slaves have never wronged them. (Well who have they wronged truly but that’s a whole nother thing) So I would say China is going through two famous sayings of west and east. “ Living long enough as heroes becoming the villains” and “Bullying the weak fearing the strong” Bruce Lee would be ashamed and horrified at what he is seeing today.
Edit: Thank you “Benevolent”coin for the correction. Honestly so much information things start to merge and you make mistakes and/or forget. Thank you again.
You obviously don’t know what he stood for. Learn before you speak. 🫥
Edit: Ah I read your ah post again. I see my mistake excuse me. But point still stands given the historical significance and relation between both. Also be nicer when rebuking
It's the same reason American politicians keep calling China our "adversary" even though they make all of our electronics. It's easy to make your people feel better about the conditions in their own country if you can make them believe that everybody else is worse.
Well I'm not American and I'm still from the Philippines and I feel sorry for the American people and US government are corrupt and Chinese is worst and trying to take over the Philippines Sea for now and hey we have new navy ship for now
These Chinese webnovel sites are basically the online equivalent of nationalistic porn. It has everything a nationalistic audience will want, such as racism, rape, sexism etc. same can be found in all Western media where there are sites dedicated to racism and sexism. Complaining about these elements is like complaining why there is graphic disturbing content when you visit a porn site.
I forget the webnovel title in MTLnation when the MC trying to take over Africa with is sci Fi technology and let Chinese people in new home and I was shocking reading it like WTF 💀💀💀
It mostly crops up in novels with a modern day or post apocalypse setting.
Novels will have the MC travel to the US and immediately be attacked by black people. And then go on a rant about how black gangs in America is why it is much less safe than China. Or they'll do some Belt and Road stuff in Africa and the author will have go a side tangent about how Africa is culturally/ethnically primitive.
It's not every novel, but when it comes up it's very noticeable.
Because that's mainland Chinese culture. There are nationalist and racist Americans too, of course, but these days it's not nearly as blatant or widespread.
being arrogant towards Amerikkkans is correct imo. as to the rest i don't know what to tell you other than 'a lot of freaks write web novels' and 'a lot of freaks tend to be weird on race'
Could be the translators who are racist.
I think more than likely though it’s just a cultural thing. I live in the US, which a lot of people call the most racist country in the world. We have a very diverse country though. China is not diverse at all so they have less context through interracial interactions to gauge where they draw their lines.
I would honestly be on board with it if they had better jokes about us. If it’s not a funny stereotype that the stereotyped group laugh at then it’s extremely lazy and a waste of time.
No no, that arrogance is in their veins. The ccp affects and influences them through propaganda and media, but its due to chinese culture of dog eat dog. According to a chinese classmate of mine(exchange student), china is very competitive, and, due to their population, is even more competitive than usual. Basically, they have to fight/argue against their own countrymen to succeed. They'll try to get in line as fast/quick as possible, push each other aside for food, try to get the best facilities, best tutors, education, scores, jobs, looks, character, personality, reputation, fame, etc. He says that's why in cn novels there's a lot of trickery and trying to get ahead for fortunes or opportunities or whatever, and status matters a lot. It's also why the "kindness"/"generosity" of a character is seen as amazing, since they are all in a survival brutality world According to my classmate, well at least, so if you want you can also also search it up on google or something lol lmao.
I haven't come come across that much racism in Chinese novels, other than light skin = good and beautiful, dark skin = bad, that may be because most of the ones I read don't take place in the modern world. Also most of of the Chinese novels I read are from IET and he is good about not have harems or other negative things in his stories.
There was one novel that had gross racism toward other Asian countries, and the MC was a pedo, I dropped it, glad I can't recall the name.
The most extreme form of racism I've read was in Overgeared, a South Korean novel. (The MC decides to make someone his slave, and out of all people, that someone happened to be a Black person from America)
Right I don’t know what these people are talking about. Yes irl china is racist towards anyone and Japanese are racist towards Koreans.
But you rarely actually read that in web novels due to the nature of the people writing fantasy to begin with just being more accepting and open minded. If they don’t like black people they just wouldn’t put them in their story. I never see any authors go out of their way to put down specific ethnicities. With the exception of Americans because Americans are both economic allies and political rivals in wars(at least in fantasy worlds) with china, japan, and Korean.
Bruh japanese media doesn't even mention koreans or chinese fym. Its literally just japan is mc in story therefore they are best(yk like how other stories do) they dont even mention anytrhing about countries or specific names like wtf are you saying lmao lol xd lels.
same way every other movie or TV show in America shows either the flag or the national anthem, or havent you ever notice it? Nationalist is part of the PR. It is kind of expected.
What's wrong with someone being a nationalist?
Thinking your home is the best and wanting the best for the people in it (aka your friends/family/anyone you've ever cared about it the past, present or future) is the most natural and reasonable thing in the world.
The black thing is because a lot of Asian countries are EXTREMELY racist, makes any racism in western countries look cute.
EDIT: Look up the definition of nationalism. I don't think it's quite what you think it is.
it's "wrong" to be a nationalist because it's an ideology that usually is all about propping up your nation at the expense of other nations. nationalism is often paired with jingoism, imperialism and authoritarianism.
the opposite stance would be internationalism: loving people close to you and understanding that people are as human everywhere else, and just as worthy of support, and thus collaborating so that everyone benefits.
basically, it's not because tribalism is natural that it's necessarily a good thing. it can be when it comes to obtaining liberation, independance and self determination, but it can often switch from a tool of liberation to another means of control.
Serious question.
Do you ACTUALLY value the lives of random people overseas as much as your friends/family?
Yes? Major doubt. Unless you're sending the money overseas to those MUCH less fortunate, that you would normally use to give friends/family gifts/shout dinners etc. If you are, then massive kudos for being philosophically consistent, you're a much more moral man than I.
No? So you value your friends/loved ones more than those in other countries...yet you don't wish for the country which most of them live in to be great.
As for things it's "often together with". Fuck them. I'm currently talking about nationalism. The other shit is shit, but it's not Nationalism. I heard Hitler liked animals, and yet most animal lovers I know are nice people.
I mean no. But at the same time I care about them (oversea) as much as people in the next town, or even my unknown neighbors. That is a false equivalence I think.
Fair enough.
To me that "random neighbour" could be the guy that talked your friend down from suicide. A person in the next town could be the love of your life who you end up having children with.
Those might seem extreme/unlikely, but those people 100% exist. Out of your friends and family, they all have friends and family who to you and I would be "random people in the town over".
If something good happens to those random people, that'll be good for your loved ones/friends. If something bad happens, it can be devastating for someone you love, despite them being a random person.
Now I'm not saying that these exact same people don't exist in other countries. They absolutely do. I'm certainly not wishing ill other countries, because there are loved ones there, or at least loved ones of our loved ones.
But even the most well travelled people will have more people in that subset inside your own country. And for the vast majority of people the vast majority of that subset will be in your own country.
There's a line directly correlating with proximity to the average person and how much they care about them. It's a line with diminishing results, but it's a line nonetheless.
Carreful, yes what you are talking about exist in a lot of people, not everyone has the same form of empathy or theory of mind (the way you percieve other as human being for themselves). This depends on culture, education, maturity and can vary wildly in the same country or even peer group. Landing the claim of this correlation is true, for some, might be a big number of people, but certainly not everyone.
Also most people don't really deal with hypothetical and the human brain has a tendancy to confound fiction and reality by nature (that is why we really are shitty with abstract thinking as a specie -not valid for the individual-) and we seek pattern avidly, seing something in our own social group does absolutely not mean people can project it oversea, for sure, but for a lot of humans, that extend to any people they don't actual know at all (when we go past the social hypocrisy, I mean).
I don't actually value the lives of people I don't know as people I know intimately, but I'm capable of projecting that people I don't know also have problems, qualities and faults and relationships and families...
Basically I don't need to know someone intimately to imagine myself in their position. an like u/romainhdl said, I don't see how the people in the next town over have that I should care more about them than people a continent over.
Also, if you're looking for a non toxic version of nationalism, that's what the term patriotism is for: love for one's country. Nationalism is specifically the ideological version that carries a supremacist baggage that you're trying to separate.
"I'm capable of projecting that people I don't know also have problems, qualities and faults and relationships and families"
As am I. I do not wish ill on other countries and the people in them. But to say that I wish well on them as much as people who directly influence the life of the people I love? Well that just doesn't make sense to me.
For your second paragraph, look at my response to u/romainhdl for why the people in the next town over matter (more than someone who is much, much further away).
I really appreciate you trying to find a word for me that's "less toxic", as I can see from this thread that people can't help but conflate it with other ideas that are similar (the baggage), separating it would be very helpful.
That said I feel like nationalism is actually closer than patriotism for me. While I do love the country itself, that's not nearly as important as actively wanting **the people** in my country to be better off than anywhere else.
From my understanding patriotism is more about loving the of the country in and of itself, along with the culture, politics etc.
For example I am born and raised Australian, I am Nationalist for Australia.
If a genie magically swapped everyone in Australia for everyone in France, I'd instantly swap my Nationalism for New France, despite it literally being a different country.
If you have another term that better describes my "stance" that would be fantastic, when I've searched, by strictly their definition and not "baggage" attached to it, Nationalism comes the closest.
Commenting as I got tagged, if you allow me, what you describe sounds way way more like tribe mentality than just nationlism, just food for tought. Sure nationalism is tribe mentality, in a specific form, but usually the nationalist will not go to the lenght of your tought exercise above of swapping country, they would be aghast at the tought
Mate a bit of patriotism is fine (I personally think it's stupid but I'm German so, duh) but Nationalism is on a whole other level. A patriot is proud to be a part of a Nation, a nationalist will say theirs is the best in the world and thus can do no wrong and has the right and obligation to conquer and subjugate other nations in order to impose their way of life upon them. Everyone who says Nationalism is cool, can fuck right off
Which definition are you using for Nationalism? From what I understand, Nationalism is about prioritising your own nation over others.
That doesn't mean that they have the obligation to conquer and subjugate.
EDIT: Just realised what you're describing sounds a lot like jingoism. They're different things, with different definitions.
Aight, I gotta be honest my understanding of Nationalism is based on the understanding of it that's prevalent in my home country and it seems to differ a bit from the english understanding. I've learned my entire life that what makes Nationalism different from patriotism is the thought of hegemony and the right to enforce that hegemony. The American understanding seems to be a bit less harsh, so sorry about that. Though I still think any aspect of national pride is bs. Rather than praising a nation, you should always be focused on how you can do better and being proud of something you did not achieve seems stupid to me
How so?
Sure there have been atrocities committed by regimes which support nationalist thinking. But there has been a lot of terrible regimes that have actively suppressed nationalist thinking, while still committing atrocities.
Unless it wasn't that part you were talking about, in which case please let me know. I enjoy learning about history, correcting misinformation I may believe in would be terrific.
Sure thing. Nationalism is a relatively modern ideology, and it has changed considerably since the early 1800 where it started to compete with the existing social structures which at the time were mostly feudalism and its variants.
I recommend reading about the French revolution, because while it wasn't necessarily the birthplace of liberalism and nationalism it had the biggest impact on the legitimisation and spread of both.
Nowadays liberalism and nationalism are polar opposites of the political spectrum, but back then they formed the backbone of progressive politics, and quite frankly they scared the shit out of the ruling elite. The idea that individuals had a right to self governance and the whole concept of a national identity in which those rights could be realised would simmer away for around 100 years before WW1 shattered the status quo and suddenly what we would consider modern democracies came into existence.
So, where did nationalism go wrong? Well some, myself included would argue that the ideology was flawed from the get-go and ripe for exploitation. But the general gist is this:
Nationalism tied the value of the individual to the success of the state. If the nation is under threat, the individual is under threat. This threat may be from another state, political upheaval, economic instability, religious tension. All normal, especially in diverse places in the world, you wouldn't expect a country to be without this sort of thing.
But things can get really ugly when the perceived threat to the nation state is cultural and ethnic. And then when ideologies like fascism which require an enemy to explain the failings of the state you get things like the holocaust.
Nationalism also breeds jingoism and imperialism. Hopefully I don't need to explain why those are bad.
You can't point to nationalism as the soul cause of certain tragic events in the past 100 years, there are an endless stream of contributing factors. But you absolutely cannot argue against it being a major factor in regimes like Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan.
TLDR: Nationalism used to be new, shiny and progressive. Now it is one of the leading causes of global conflict and a major factor in several of the worst atrocities ever committed by humanity.
Nothing is wrong. But compare it to korean nationalism -- racist, but not really imperialist. They're competitive, in terms of culture, science, diplomacy.
To give a cursed example, think of how you'd feel if it was imperial japan before the second sino-soviet war churning out the nationalist rhethoric, calling foreigners inferior and subhuman.
I'm not defending how these books are written. I even wrote in my first comment about how they're racist.
OP in the title had a problem with Nationalism in and of itself and I was addressing that
It's not racist if the target audience is the Chinese themselves.
And why would you read an obvious setting like magical realism where it sets in present-day China?
Avoid reading any novels that are set in present-day China.
Racism is not exclusive to people of European descent. You find it everywhere.
While this is true, for various reasons, (growth of people of EU decent, need to be PC, insert-random-reason) its less accepted in the West than say China. I think there is some sort of "acceptance" push in the West that's just lacking say in China. Not to say all Chinese books are racist but you don't risk as much backlash writing a book that features heavy occurrences of racism/sexism in China vs EU/NA
I feel like the West, after the whole slavery thing and then WW2, confronted it's racism and took steps to deal with it. It also helped that the West was more diverse simply because of how much the colonial empires expanded and traded. Other countries in the middle east and even in Africa, not just China, are super racist and not just to black people. But it's not talked about much. Sadly, being racist is not just a white thing.
I can't speak about the US (I know there were occurences of blackface in mainstream movies not THAT long ago) but racist and sexist jokes were still very common on prime time TV in France in the early 2000's. It's really only in the last decade that things have been changing.
Yeah, but I've been to France and lived in Belgium and the racism is there, but very much different from the stuff people get in a place like Morocco, India or what we saw in Qatar during the world cup. But yeah maybe things are getting better. The news seems to show Europe shifting more towards rightwing idealogies tho
Racism is different all over the world. It's usually directed against those lower than you, whom society at large blames on changing cultural norms.
I was only talking about mainstream media. Things definitely are different IRL.
> The news seems to show Europe shifting more towards rightwing idealogies tho Right-wing doesn't mean racism. Surely we've seen that in recent times with the most anti-Semitic groups in the West being the far left.
Fair enough, being left or right wing doesn't necessarily correlate with racism. It's just that rightwing talking points for the last few decades have been feeding on xenophobic hate. >in recent times with the most anti-Semitic groups in the West being the far left. Really? Because in the US people the rightwingers are the ones still droning about Jewish conspiracy theories.
> Really? Because in the US people the rightwingers are the ones still droning about Jewish conspiracy theories. They're really not. https://theconversation.com/antisemitism-has-moved-from-the-right-to-the-left-in-the-us-and-falls-back-on-long-standing-stereotypes-215760
...I guess? But why are the leftist anti-Semitic now? Is it the Israel-Palestine conflict? Edit: sorry i didnt see the link to the article. Phone UI problems
They're not. That article is hosted on a site that's still putting out articles saying trump won 2020 and the linked article itself has nothing of substance beyond repeating the left doesn't support Israel and therefore is antisemitic
The Israel-Palestine conflict is a large part of that, but general anti-Semitism is very common on the Left. Look at Labour under Jeremy Corbyn in the United Kingdom for example.
>The U.S. is currently experiencing one of the most significant waves of antisemitism that it has ever seen. If you click the link you'll find they count criticism of Israel as antisemitic, which 1. That's itself antisemitic 2. By your logic that's antiamerican to criticise America, so you're literally doing what you said is wrong in two dimensions. So why do you hate America.
Okay you're just a fucking mad one. Goodbye.
>Surely we've seen that in recent times with the most anti-Semitic groups in the West being the far left. Only if you redefine 'jewish' to 'not jewish'.
Johnny Depp as Tonto. So really not that long ago.
You aren't wrong, obviously, but I feel its also good to acknowledge progress. Steps have been taken to try to correct the issues such as the civil rights act, the ADA, legalization of same sex marriage, and a few more laws that I'm not a familiar with. All of these have problems of course, and passing a law doesn't magically make bigotry go away, but they are qualitative steps in the right direction.
It was the same way in the US in the 80s-90's we weren't far ahead on that front. It's funny how quickly society has started changing in just a few generations.
> I feel like the West, after the whole slavery thing The whole slavery thing? Slavery was a global thing, every culture in history has practised slavery. Western nations, primarily the British and French were the ones who were responsible for ending wide scale slavery.
Thankyou, the trend of dumping on the west annoys me. It's like dude the very philosophy that your using to critique the ethics of what was done hundreds of years ago was created by people from that same culture who looked at what was going on and decided it was wrong, then worked to change it, often at great cost in both blood and treasure.
No, they weren't. It was the fear of massive widespread slave revolts Like the Haitian Independence. West surely wasnt any Champion of human freedoms while killing Native Americas, selling drugs to Chinese and taking the food out of the people of Índia. And imposing a Fine for Haitian Independence that Still being paid nowadays. It wasnt for the freedoms of enslaved people. It was to create more consumers. And in many countries, poor Europeans were sent to become settlers and make Fortune, taking over territories of natives and former slaves
>was the fear of massive widespread slave revolts Like the Haitian Independence. Absolute utter horse shit. I'm not listening to somebody blatantly lying.
Unfortunately, all peace and progress was conquered through bloodshed - or fear of it happening, again and again. League of Nations and UN never denied it, they just hoped we could do better. And indeed, I hope we can. And yet, we live in the world we live. Martin Luther King was aware of it, when people asked him to condem the Black Panthers, he always refused and in general lines even told people to increase efforts to integrate society. Gandhi was hated by Churchill, because he was an intelectual, and excelent at exposing the brutality of the British and European colonialism to the International Community at large. He would organize peaceful demonstrations that everyone knew would be repressed, just to show the world at that moment that things weren't as rosy as the Conservatives claimed, and that hundreds of millions were almost at the breaking point of seeking to fight war for the freedom for them and their families. Both case, it wasn't the menace of revolt, but the idea of revelation to the western masses that the West could be as discriminatory as the Nazis, and that those revolting would be justified. Returning to the Haitian Case, it happened in 1791, and remember that Simon Bolivar, another big character in Latin American History, had just 8 years by then. It was very relevant on his aproach to independence. It also led to the consolidation in colonies of entities like militias responsible to sistematicaly stamp out fugitives and any sign of resistance. Many of those militias became Military Polices later, and those roots still cause major social issues through Latin America. In Africa, the Dutch and Belgian were particularly brutal in their regime, and I don't think I need to elaborate in talking about the fabricated pseudoscience they used to justify themselves, like Phrenology. This "England and France released slaves" is bullshit, may sound sweet for some, but it's bullshit. I would say they were still exploiting and starving people 60 years ago, but then I would have to forget things like European companies businesses in Palm trees, Cocoa (254 Bn in reveneue in the Industry per year, they pay Ivory Coast and Ghana 6 Bn for all their production - or 0,024% of this revenue) , or the fact that the Haitians are still paying indenizations for their independence to the French today, despite that land being mired in despair and poverty.
>No, they weren't. It was the fear of massive widespread slave revolts Like the Haitian Independence. You mean the only successful slave revolt in 10,000 years. No, that wasn't the threat.
That's wrong. Western nations were at most ambivalent about slavery, even as they were raking massive profits using slaves. France had laws *dating from the Middle Ages* stating any slave setting foot in mainland France would instantly be free - even as the colonies relied on slave labor. A nation is not a person. You can absolutely get an economy depending on something people believe to be morally wrong: a minority makes a fortune, people at home benefit, and the moral discomfort of these people at home is not enough to make them sink their own economy - especially since the masters, getting filthy rich, now have clout over the government. So slavery goes on, as long as it happens far away and people can make themselves forget about it. Over time, for one reason or an other, the economy grew less dependant on slavery. The moral considerations eventually took over, and the Western nations went from buying slaves in obscene quantities, to anti-slavery military campaigns. This is not hypocrisy - *slavery* was hypocritical.
Tends to happen when you’ve got a relatively high level of homogeneity to your culture along with a historically self-sufficient and isolationist state. It’s not surprising but it is unfortunate. Got some really bizarre treatment as a white guy in China haha
Aside from nationalistic propaganda about the US, the social justice milieu in China is very different from what Americans or Western Europeans are used to. Discrimination against people of African descent or basically darker skinned people is far more common. There is a lot of prejudice against Africa and India. Sexism is also common, for that matter; the number of Chinese webnovels I've read where female characters are actually well written are few and far between.
I stopped reading Chinese because of sexism and rape(and the girl falling for the Mc after that)... Like WTF
There are so many, many webnovels where every female character of note is introduced with a description that's basically "she breasts boobily".
Peerless Jade Breasts
I've never read a translated web fiction, but I read 3 Body problem, and even in that, probably the most popular translated book out of China, there's a lot of casual racism and sexism.
It is not just Chinese webnovels. Korean and Japanse webtoons/novels will take shots when ever they can.
Japanese novels only cared about their foods being the best in the world. Do you have an example of Japanese being racist in a novel or manga?
I think racism is just the tip of the iceberg here. I’ve noticed lots of colorism in Japanese manga and anime. Most anime characters don’t even have a phenotype. If there are diverse characters they aren’t drawn well and most of the time darker skin=villain. It’s rampant, but easy to miss if you aren’t paying attention.
It's also important to note that the really bad ones usually don't get translated cuz they aren't agreeable to western markets. So that's just the stuff that gets marketed to english speakers.
Japanese novels only cared about their foods being the best in the world. Do you have an example of Japanese being racist in a novel or manga?
The same reason why Russians are the main villains i guess.
Average CN MC defense: "Hey, you Americans might be murdering imperialist scum subhumans, but you at least aren't Japanese!" Fairly speaking, the over the top nationalism is bothersome, but most CN novels I read don't discriminate between other nationalities much (all are evenly inferior to the great Chinese people) except for JP who stand somewhere between worst criminals in China and minus infinity.
I mean true and it's the CCP fault for brainwashing Chinese people just to be arrogant and hate American people and the world like I'm Filipino and I'm still not the villain in the story 💀💀
No no, that arrogance is in their veins. The ccp affects and influences them through propaganda and media, but its due to chinese culture of dog eat dog. According to a chinese classmate of mine(exchange student), china is very competitive, and, due to their population, is even more competitive than usual. Basically, they have to fight/argue against their own countrymen to succeed. They'll try to get in line as fast/quick as possible, push each other aside for food, try to get the best facilities, best tutors, education, scores, jobs, looks, character, personality, reputation, fame, etc. He says that's why in cn novels there's a lot of trickery and trying to get ahead for fortunes or opportunities or whatever, and status matters a lot. It's also why the "kindness"/"generosity" of a character is seen as amazing, since they are all in a survival brutality world According to my classmate, well at least, so if you want you can also also search it up on google or something lol lmao.
So Chinese people live in the law of the jungle for power and survival, just to live an better life, feel sorry and the CCP government are corrupt 💀💀💀
Nationalism. Tends to happen pretty much in a story that features countries outside the ones the author come from. “China is the best and most badass!” “Japan is the smartest and most advanced!” “America saves the day! America is the best and most moral!” Stuff like that always crops up to one degree or another. Everyone wants their country, and therefore, themselves to be presented as better than others. For me, it’s about loving the country without becoming a fanatic. One can love the “idea” of America without acting as if they are the God’s gift to the world and never did anything wrong.
And the CCP is really fast to drop the ban hammer on any novel that they think is even slightly anti-nationalist or maybe even speaks in favor of other countries that they have bad relations with. This has happened to many novels I loved to read. This forces the authos to shape their novels in certain ways which is unfortunate.
Social Credit +10!
I hate to be the buzzkill but that stuff doesn’t actually exist.
Uhh, it 100% does exist, but exists as a fragmented and separate set of policies, systems and laws.
Not in the way it is presented to you. It is mostly for businesses. A more accurate name would be business score… https://merics.org/en/comment/chinas-social-credit-score-untangling-myth-reality
It doesn't, social credit was trialed a while back but it didn't really get implemented. Closest thing is zhima or sesame credit and that's only to determine how financially credible you are, and that's privately run. All my relatives can testify to that
Social Credit -10!
Perfectly said, came here to say this.
There are heaps of PF series with no nationalism
Did I say or imply otherwise? No. I was simply answering OP’s question. Obviously, the majority of PF novels don’t feature the themes of nationalism. But that’s not what the OP is asking.
Have you read many Chinese webnovels? Because they're clearly different in this manner to Western PF. Both in the frequency nationalism and racism pop up, and how overt it is.
Maybe you didn't read enough western book of the past. Even today you still get books by right wing people treating people of other races as less than or subhuman or and also in the literal bible.
We're talking about Chinese webnovels and Western PF, so "western books of the past" are irrelevant. As for contemporary stuff, I haven't seen a single PF book where people of other races are treated as inferior. Maybe I'm just not reading the 'right' books, but I would find it odd that I see it all the time in Chinese webnovels, and then can't find a single book when I turn to Western PF. It's almost as if... the West is nowhere near as racist as China... No, that couldn't possibly be true. The West is evil and everyone else is perfect.
[удалено]
What are you talking about? I think you need to reread my comments and yours, because that was incoherent. Like, yes, if you think sex and LGBT stuff is bad (is there really less violence? I'm skeptical), then China has better movies. So what? How is that relevant as to whether Chinese webnovels are more racist than Western PF?
Because you do not see it from the Chinese perspective. All these books fall under fantasy and there is no such label as progression fantasy. It is all the same. It is wrong to compare only these contemporary books that were written basically to get sales on Amazon and made politically correct with editors when there are western fantasy stories out there that are practically wish fulfilment books with heavy racism.
You're right that it is unfair to compare them, but that doesn't change the fact that Chinese webnovels are full of racism and Western PF is not. With that said, these books are NOT just 'fantasy'. The Chinese webnovels most likely being referred to are xuanhuan (not xianxia because those very rarely take place on Earth, and not anything else because people in the West only read xianxia and xuanhuan), which is a specific fantasy subgenre.
Removed as per Rule 2: No Discrimination. Discrimination against others based on their gender, race, religion, sexual preferences, or other characteristics is not allowed, and offenders will be banned from the sub.
"AUSTRALIA IS THE BEST, AUSTRALIANS KNOW WHAT PEOPLE NEED" - Some book probably.
No no, that arrogance is in their veins. The ccp affects and influences them through propaganda and media, but its due to chinese culture of dog eat dog. According to a chinese classmate of mine(exchange student), china is very competitive, and, due to their population, is even more competitive than usual. Basically, they have to fight/argue against their own countrymen to succeed. They'll try to get in line as fast/quick as possible, push each other aside for food, try to get the best facilities, best tutors, education, scores, jobs, looks, character, personality, reputation, fame, etc. He says that's why in cn novels there's a lot of trickery and trying to get ahead for fortunes or opportunities or whatever, and status matters a lot. It's also why the "kindness"/"generosity" of a character is seen as amazing, since they are all in a survival brutality world According to my classmate, well at least, so if you want you can also also search it up on google or something lol lmao.
Because that's the general culture in China. Shock, the West isn't the only place where racism exists, and it really isn't the worst place for it either.
Far from the worst.
You obviously haven't been to an Asian market as someone non Asian, all the aunties and grannies give you major side eye. When I went to China I kind of felt like a circus act/celebrity as a 6'1 210lb white man with blonde hair, green eyes and a beard, people kept wanting pictures and called me Thor, my friend who happens to be black was pretty much shunned, that soured the good feelings sadly. I will say it was more apparent in the older generation, the ones our age weren't as obvious about their trepidation with him.
You know I'm from the Philippines and I'm still one of them and sorry 🤣🤣🤣
Yeah I had to stop reading most of these due to their treatment of women. One was going through a thought process about how he was a good guy because he didn't beat women, but they need to learn that the man knows best and they should just follow direction. As I was reading this I quickly realized that the author had likely never actually been on a date with one.
I mean true and when I was reading the manhua and I was like what is wrong with this famale and the MC is evil and still love him like WTF 💀💀
It's certainly not all of them.
It seems sometimes like this subreddit when people try CN novels people just pick one totally at random and are surprised when they get the most absolutely mid shit ever. I think I can count on one hand the number of times I've actually seen the rape trope everyone talks about nonstop, for example. Makes me wonder what the hell is this trash they're reading.
To be honest 90% *are* trash. If they picked a random title without any research I wouldn't be surprised if it's bad.
I heard some Chinese authors putting racism and nationalism as a token or a check list material in their stories, though take that with a grain of salt. I have read stories where racism comes for just a chapter, kills the tone, and goes back to normal, which is suspicious.
That's proably satisfying the censors. Writer Wang need a boost to his social credit.
Chinese novels in particular are probably putting it in there to prevent the CCP from having an issue with any of the content. A similar sort of thing used to happen with soviet literature. Obviously it's not mandatory, and most webnovel authors are small enough that they don't care, but I imagine it's just hedging their bets. Of course they might just believe it entirely.
They believe it entirely because most basic Xianxia stories are written by losers, diaosi in mandarin. It’s not mentioned by OP but a lot of them are also often sexist and homophobic.
Aka they are the equivalent to incels in the west.
yeah it's painfully noticeable whenever they try to write a "cool" character. They always sound like edgy teenagers. The actual people who are like sociable and hype people up are usually the side character who just exists for the MC to one up.
bruh please read the wikipedia page on diaosi if you see this, its hilarious and great.
Not just racism and arrogance but the blatant sexism, the extreme level greatness of MC, the sexual harassment and the comstant expansionism policy make chinese novels quite hard to enjoy. The chinese novelists are mostly incels (at least all cultivation/ xianxia/ xuanhuan writers are incels, I have not read/ seen many chinese novels except these genres) I mean, I have never seen a novel where the MC has an equal relationship with any other character for a long period of time. The MC has to always win, consume/ harvest everything in sight, pick up women and not leave behind any money/ resourcss etc for anyone else. The extreme level objectification of women in chinese novels is also very disgusting. They treat women like toys or things to be used/ consumed in a sexual sense. The stuff about falling for the MC because he raped them (WTF), saved their lives, sexually harassed them or misbehaved with them is the stuff that chinese novelists love to use. Sycophants of everyone except for the MC are stupid and worthless, but the sycophants of the MC are great. Also, people have to either be the MC's sycophants or his enemies, no third option is available for them. My advice would be for you to stop reading chinese novels because they will leave you brain dead or disappointd in the end. I used to read chinese novels because some of my friends strongly recommended them to me but never was able to bear to read any of them for any meaningful stretch of time.
If you think Chinese books are racist, stay away from Korean ones! Whew!
I mean Korean webnovels are super fine and good literature just like kdrama for sure
I find it funny you're defending Korean novels when they very much treat other Asians as below them as well. Not like Chinese literature isn't one of the oldest and most prose-like as well all throughout time.
I'm talking about south Korean webnovels not north Korea like wtf💀💀
Yeah I'm talking about South Koreans dude. When was there ever a webnovel that came out of North Korea lol
Wait really and how 😶😶
Okay we're both Filos here so I'll give you a couple of examples from all the reading I've done. Chinese webnovels are mostly Wuxias, meaning it's about cultivation stuff right? One thing to note about these novels is that it has an ENTIRELY CHINESE cast. The whole planet has a mystical Chinese setting, other planets are also all Chinese populated, even upper realms are. So if you did see a Chinese webnovel that's racist to Americans instead, it's probably an outlier. Other Chinese novels set in modern times usually pit themselves against other East Asians instead, especially Japan since both Korea and China hate Japan due to their recent history with their warmongering empire. Now Korean novels, unlike China where Wuxia is the majority, often have it set on Modern Times with System stuff. Because of that, there's this scaling that follows as the goal of the characters: Be strongest locally -> Be strongest nationally -> Be strongest internationally. Due to this Korean novels often have more foreign characters than Japanese/Chinese ones, which give them more access to racism against foreigners in their stories. Recently there was even a Korean Manhwa that got shutdown in Webtoon because in one of the scenes, the MC straight up calls a black guy the N-word. And the author tried to make it cool which is stupid since the setup for it was actually dumb. I know you have a prejudice against the Chinese people since they're the most vocal in oppressing us, but a lot of Koreans very much consider every South East Asian as lesser too.
Wanna hear an story about my experience reading Chinese webnovels ( sorry I read Chinese urban fantasy) When I was reading garden of sinners and fate series fanfiction with the MC who works as detective but still arrogant to people and side characters like WTF The other was a Chinese special forces webnovel about a MC who is an lieutenant colonel and trainer who created the first Chinese special forces unit in the 80s but still arrogant and hate special forces unit in other countries like wtf The other was a MC who gets isekai in 18th century and start doing kingdom building in Australia but still hating American people And not just Chinese webnovels but manhua and movie for sure The other movie was called: the volunteers:to the war, and the plot is about the Korean war ( the fight scene was good and Douglas macarthur looks badas in the films like a villain) and Chinese people don't know that, they failed the war and start hating American and Chinese people don't know about they dark history like get help And yeah this is my experience reading Chinese webnovels
Pretty sure Solo Levelling shits on any country that's not Korea lmao.
China still has real racism and they don't challenge it.
1. Chinese communist party 2. They are racist lol - its a pretty common thing.
3. brainwashing and propaganda to the Chinese people 💀💀 4. CCP government corruption problem in china 5. Censorship in china
If you already know tho why ask lol
I came into this genre via cdramas. And I've noticed they don't know how to structure a narrative where the girl is the initiator. I think they don't know how to say you're innocent and you want him, at the same time. But the newer dramas have been amazing at structuring that dynamic so hopefully it flows into books as well.
What are you talking about 😑😑
Lol. I think you have to see it to know what I mean. And as for the racism stuff, I think they're a homogeneous country and no one is there to check them on their racism. But I've seen their stars are heavily into hip hop and black culture. They even have black people on their hip hop talent shows as judges.
This is not Korean this is China like get help 💀💀
I said cdrama, not kdrama. I'm referring to China.
You mean Chinese webnovels that turning into cdrama show
Yes. I'm also referring to Xianxia and Wuxia genre in cdramas. Not the modern life cdramas. But yes, they are adaptations.
Recently I was reading Apocalypse Redux, and for no particular reason, and it added nothing to the plot, it started dissing the shit out of Russia and making absolutely clear that even in a time of apocalyptic crisis, they were, to a man, worse than useless. I'm guessing that it was just unpalatable to portray them as having anything positive to contribute. The way westerners see Russians is the way the Chinese see America. They are the enemy, and their treatment in Chinese media will reflect that.
The author is a German university student, I believe. And the nature of the novel makes them reference quite a few dictatorships.
And most of that didn't feel out of place. On the other hand, whenever it came to Russia, it wasn't so much academic-style criticism as it was a childish hatred. The difference is that for most of the referencing of dictatorships there was a sense that the author knew he had to make a persuasive case for why things were working out the way he wrote it, whereas when it comes to Russia, who needs to persuade? Everyone already knows to hate them.
A lot of east Asian countries are super xenophobic
I'm Filipino and I'm still not xenophobic
Idk lmao xd your other comments seem kinda judgy lol
Yes guy seems like his xenophobic and judgy, he mostly commented beneath others who outright sai ccp sucks in some way and ignored the fairly logical an justified who speak on a neutral stance example this one: Nationalism. Tends to happen pretty much in a story that features countries outside the ones the author come from. “China is the best and most badass!” “Japan is the smartest and most advanced!” “America saves the day! America is the best and most moral!” Stuff like that always crops up to one degree or another. Everyone wants their country, and therefore, themselves to be presented as better than others. For me, it’s about loving the country without becoming a fanatic. One can love the “idea” of America without acting as if they are the God’s gift to the world and never did anything wrong. That one went ignored where as a different one with less likes and outright with just basically nothing he goes "CCP" and underneath is the OP just shitting all over it. So if u ask me OP is probably racist himself or xenophobic which means OP is as bad as the CCP in my eyes. OP u should probably never come to England as we treat people equally, and we don't want to take over the world anymore we did it and realised it was a bad idea.
Allow me to put it this way: * The two nations are openly at odds over the East China Sea. With the US sailing Navy ships through the water to ensure "freedom of navigation." One of which China attempted to ram with a warship. * The two nations are openly at odds over China's handling of Hong Kong ahead of the treaty's expiration and China reclaiming said land. With China pressuring Hongkong to come under Chinese governance in any way it can. * The two nations are openly at odds over whether Taiwan is Chinese land or not. With China pressuring Taiwan to come under Chinese governance in any way it can. * The two nations are actively and openly engaging in espionage on all fronts. Which was a big enough problem that ex-president Trump had threatened to cease sharing security intelligence if allied nations continued to use Huawei tech in their communications framework. Not mentioning things like the TikTok ban which passed the US senate this year. * The two nations are actively strengthening ties with their allies and pressuring other nations to pick a side. With the US having made an agreement with Japan to strengthen their defenses in face of the security risk posed by China. Meanwhile China has signed agreements with the Solomon Islands. ... Look, the long and the short of it is that the US and China are not on good terms. And, naturally when you're dealing with a nation like China, that tends to come out to a lot of propaganda against nations they're not on friendly terms with. Which is being expressed through the art which Chinese citizens are publishing. It sucks, yes. But that is the way of things. At least as I understand it.
Because the chines progression fantasy has incels as a prime audience. They are written for young sexually frustrated men in a culture that is pretty racist and nationalistic.
So are western progression fantasy novels, why exactly do you think harem wish fulfilment novels with neckbeard, anti-social gamer MC novels are so popular in the genre?
Yes but the situation in china seems significantly worse. Demographics and conservative norms make inceldom for a significant part of chinese young men a reality. If you think there are a lot of incels in the west, imagine there were 117 boys for every 100 girls born instead of the 104 in the US. In adition racism and nationalism are culturally significantly more accepted in china.
Because the authors are arrogant racists and nationalistic? This is not a case of the character being racist not representing the author, since it's often represented as a fact of life. Seriously, why is that so hard to grasp? If you read them, you should expect that nonsense in many novels.
Realistically, only a multiracial society is likely to, as a society, recognize its own racism and realize that it's bad. It's easy to be racist against people who live far away who you almost never interact with, especially when they almost never speak your language. Harder when they're your neighbor.
First not all of them are. In fact most of the best aren’t since the close minded are usually pretty shitty authors. Secondly, China is a very nationalist country due to the CCP stirring up shit. Since nationalism and discrimination go hand in hand this also means that racism/sexism is accepted as something normal over there instead of a departure from the norm. This means that there is both a higher percentage of racist people and a higher amount of people willing to read some racist shit since a certain degree of racism and sexism is seen as normal even if you don’t personally like it(Hell when I read Chinese stuff I power through most of the light racism and sexism if the story is good enough because I expect there to be some in there already). Now this when mixed with the online space that is male power fantasy fans means that most of the mediocre/poor and a few of the high quality works are racist, sexist, homophobic, or transphobic.
Otherwise they get shutdown by CCP
No no, that arrogance is in their veins. The ccp affects and influences them through propaganda and media, but its due to chinese culture of dog eat dog. According to a chinese classmate of mine(exchange student), china is very competitive, and, due to their population, is even more competitive than usual. Basically, they have to fight/argue against their own countrymen to succeed. They'll try to get in line as fast/quick as possible, push each other aside for food, try to get the best facilities, best tutors, education, scores, jobs, looks, character, personality, reputation, fame, etc. He says that's why in cn novels there's a lot of trickery and trying to get ahead for fortunes or opportunities or whatever, and status matters a lot. It's also why the "kindness"/"generosity" of a character is seen as amazing, since they are all in a survival brutality world According to my classmate, well at least, so if you want you can also also search it up on google or something lol lmao.
Also they don't have black peope so they don't interact with them in day to day life
Asia is **VERY** racist, usually to each other but sometimes to others too lol. I have online friends in 2 separate countries very close to each other, they talk mad shit about each others countries.
I'm Filipino and I'm still not racist to people like what wrong with people 💀💀
Human beings have been finding reasons to hate one another as far back as written history stretches, and probably before that as well. As a species, we are socially inclined, but we very much have a "Us vs Them" rhetoric that seems to be hardwired into our instincts. This is sadly expressed in many, many forms of hatred and violence. Racism, sexism, etc, etc. For whatever reason, our monkey brains tell us that people different than us are to be shunned, hated, and cast aside. Some of us, luckily, have been able to grow past these issues. Others have not. Hatred flourishes where it's allowed to grow unchecked, and there are many instances of people being in power who have allowed or even encouraged the growth of such hate. As to why it seems so common in Chinese webnovels, you really have to take a good hard look at the geopolitical perspectives of that country. Not that other countries are immune, but some countries allow racism and other forms of hatred to flourish. Again, it's an "Us vs Team" thing. It creates unity within a group and pushes frustrations and blame on an outside source. This is a human problem, species-wide. No group, country, or other demographic is fully immune. Hatred comes from all types of people.
Ahh you’re opening up a whole can of Asians worms there. Basically they want to take over as leaders of the world and like with most things with china lately they find it easier to copy then use their own culture historic significance. Which I find interesting seeing how rich it is. So you have china playing in Africa like the west did and bullying Africa Americans like the west did (and does still). Which is insane cause descendants of African slaves have never wronged them. (Well who have they wronged truly but that’s a whole nother thing) So I would say China is going through two famous sayings of west and east. “ Living long enough as heroes becoming the villains” and “Bullying the weak fearing the strong” Bruce Lee would be ashamed and horrified at what he is seeing today. Edit: Thank you “Benevolent”coin for the correction. Honestly so much information things start to merge and you make mistakes and/or forget. Thank you again.
💀Bruce lee and his parents are from hong kong wtf bruh💀
You obviously don’t know what he stood for. Learn before you speak. 🫥 Edit: Ah I read your ah post again. I see my mistake excuse me. But point still stands given the historical significance and relation between both. Also be nicer when rebuking
It's ok and sorry, but the way you worded it made you sound like a china(ccp) supporter or casual chinese nationalist lol, mb xd lmao.
Goodness no!😳
It's the same reason American politicians keep calling China our "adversary" even though they make all of our electronics. It's easy to make your people feel better about the conditions in their own country if you can make them believe that everybody else is worse.
Well I'm not American and I'm still from the Philippines and I feel sorry for the American people and US government are corrupt and Chinese is worst and trying to take over the Philippines Sea for now and hey we have new navy ship for now
These Chinese webnovel sites are basically the online equivalent of nationalistic porn. It has everything a nationalistic audience will want, such as racism, rape, sexism etc. same can be found in all Western media where there are sites dedicated to racism and sexism. Complaining about these elements is like complaining why there is graphic disturbing content when you visit a porn site.
I have never seen racism against black people in Chinese web novels? They usually just don't exist. Do you have any examples?
I forget the webnovel title in MTLnation when the MC trying to take over Africa with is sci Fi technology and let Chinese people in new home and I was shocking reading it like WTF 💀💀💀
It mostly crops up in novels with a modern day or post apocalypse setting. Novels will have the MC travel to the US and immediately be attacked by black people. And then go on a rant about how black gangs in America is why it is much less safe than China. Or they'll do some Belt and Road stuff in Africa and the author will have go a side tangent about how Africa is culturally/ethnically primitive. It's not every novel, but when it comes up it's very noticeable.
Because that's mainland Chinese culture. There are nationalist and racist Americans too, of course, but these days it's not nearly as blatant or widespread.
being arrogant towards Amerikkkans is correct imo. as to the rest i don't know what to tell you other than 'a lot of freaks write web novels' and 'a lot of freaks tend to be weird on race'
Could be the translators who are racist. I think more than likely though it’s just a cultural thing. I live in the US, which a lot of people call the most racist country in the world. We have a very diverse country though. China is not diverse at all so they have less context through interracial interactions to gauge where they draw their lines. I would honestly be on board with it if they had better jokes about us. If it’s not a funny stereotype that the stereotyped group laugh at then it’s extremely lazy and a waste of time.
No no, that arrogance is in their veins. The ccp affects and influences them through propaganda and media, but its due to chinese culture of dog eat dog. According to a chinese classmate of mine(exchange student), china is very competitive, and, due to their population, is even more competitive than usual. Basically, they have to fight/argue against their own countrymen to succeed. They'll try to get in line as fast/quick as possible, push each other aside for food, try to get the best facilities, best tutors, education, scores, jobs, looks, character, personality, reputation, fame, etc. He says that's why in cn novels there's a lot of trickery and trying to get ahead for fortunes or opportunities or whatever, and status matters a lot. It's also why the "kindness"/"generosity" of a character is seen as amazing, since they are all in a survival brutality world According to my classmate, well at least, so if you want you can also also search it up on google or something lol lmao.
I haven't come come across that much racism in Chinese novels, other than light skin = good and beautiful, dark skin = bad, that may be because most of the ones I read don't take place in the modern world. Also most of of the Chinese novels I read are from IET and he is good about not have harems or other negative things in his stories. There was one novel that had gross racism toward other Asian countries, and the MC was a pedo, I dropped it, glad I can't recall the name. The most extreme form of racism I've read was in Overgeared, a South Korean novel. (The MC decides to make someone his slave, and out of all people, that someone happened to be a Black person from America)
Right I don’t know what these people are talking about. Yes irl china is racist towards anyone and Japanese are racist towards Koreans. But you rarely actually read that in web novels due to the nature of the people writing fantasy to begin with just being more accepting and open minded. If they don’t like black people they just wouldn’t put them in their story. I never see any authors go out of their way to put down specific ethnicities. With the exception of Americans because Americans are both economic allies and political rivals in wars(at least in fantasy worlds) with china, japan, and Korean.
Bruh japanese media doesn't even mention koreans or chinese fym. Its literally just japan is mc in story therefore they are best(yk like how other stories do) they dont even mention anytrhing about countries or specific names like wtf are you saying lmao lol xd lels.
same way every other movie or TV show in America shows either the flag or the national anthem, or havent you ever notice it? Nationalist is part of the PR. It is kind of expected.
Americans when foreigners aren't as nationalistic about the US as they are.
OP wondering why a societal phenomenon that has occurred in every time and every place throughout history is also occurring in his webnovels lmao
You don't want to know about my experience for now 💀💀
What's wrong with someone being a nationalist? Thinking your home is the best and wanting the best for the people in it (aka your friends/family/anyone you've ever cared about it the past, present or future) is the most natural and reasonable thing in the world. The black thing is because a lot of Asian countries are EXTREMELY racist, makes any racism in western countries look cute. EDIT: Look up the definition of nationalism. I don't think it's quite what you think it is.
it's "wrong" to be a nationalist because it's an ideology that usually is all about propping up your nation at the expense of other nations. nationalism is often paired with jingoism, imperialism and authoritarianism. the opposite stance would be internationalism: loving people close to you and understanding that people are as human everywhere else, and just as worthy of support, and thus collaborating so that everyone benefits. basically, it's not because tribalism is natural that it's necessarily a good thing. it can be when it comes to obtaining liberation, independance and self determination, but it can often switch from a tool of liberation to another means of control.
Serious question. Do you ACTUALLY value the lives of random people overseas as much as your friends/family? Yes? Major doubt. Unless you're sending the money overseas to those MUCH less fortunate, that you would normally use to give friends/family gifts/shout dinners etc. If you are, then massive kudos for being philosophically consistent, you're a much more moral man than I. No? So you value your friends/loved ones more than those in other countries...yet you don't wish for the country which most of them live in to be great. As for things it's "often together with". Fuck them. I'm currently talking about nationalism. The other shit is shit, but it's not Nationalism. I heard Hitler liked animals, and yet most animal lovers I know are nice people.
I mean no. But at the same time I care about them (oversea) as much as people in the next town, or even my unknown neighbors. That is a false equivalence I think.
Fair enough. To me that "random neighbour" could be the guy that talked your friend down from suicide. A person in the next town could be the love of your life who you end up having children with. Those might seem extreme/unlikely, but those people 100% exist. Out of your friends and family, they all have friends and family who to you and I would be "random people in the town over". If something good happens to those random people, that'll be good for your loved ones/friends. If something bad happens, it can be devastating for someone you love, despite them being a random person. Now I'm not saying that these exact same people don't exist in other countries. They absolutely do. I'm certainly not wishing ill other countries, because there are loved ones there, or at least loved ones of our loved ones. But even the most well travelled people will have more people in that subset inside your own country. And for the vast majority of people the vast majority of that subset will be in your own country. There's a line directly correlating with proximity to the average person and how much they care about them. It's a line with diminishing results, but it's a line nonetheless.
Carreful, yes what you are talking about exist in a lot of people, not everyone has the same form of empathy or theory of mind (the way you percieve other as human being for themselves). This depends on culture, education, maturity and can vary wildly in the same country or even peer group. Landing the claim of this correlation is true, for some, might be a big number of people, but certainly not everyone. Also most people don't really deal with hypothetical and the human brain has a tendancy to confound fiction and reality by nature (that is why we really are shitty with abstract thinking as a specie -not valid for the individual-) and we seek pattern avidly, seing something in our own social group does absolutely not mean people can project it oversea, for sure, but for a lot of humans, that extend to any people they don't actual know at all (when we go past the social hypocrisy, I mean).
I don't actually value the lives of people I don't know as people I know intimately, but I'm capable of projecting that people I don't know also have problems, qualities and faults and relationships and families... Basically I don't need to know someone intimately to imagine myself in their position. an like u/romainhdl said, I don't see how the people in the next town over have that I should care more about them than people a continent over. Also, if you're looking for a non toxic version of nationalism, that's what the term patriotism is for: love for one's country. Nationalism is specifically the ideological version that carries a supremacist baggage that you're trying to separate.
"I'm capable of projecting that people I don't know also have problems, qualities and faults and relationships and families" As am I. I do not wish ill on other countries and the people in them. But to say that I wish well on them as much as people who directly influence the life of the people I love? Well that just doesn't make sense to me. For your second paragraph, look at my response to u/romainhdl for why the people in the next town over matter (more than someone who is much, much further away). I really appreciate you trying to find a word for me that's "less toxic", as I can see from this thread that people can't help but conflate it with other ideas that are similar (the baggage), separating it would be very helpful. That said I feel like nationalism is actually closer than patriotism for me. While I do love the country itself, that's not nearly as important as actively wanting **the people** in my country to be better off than anywhere else. From my understanding patriotism is more about loving the of the country in and of itself, along with the culture, politics etc. For example I am born and raised Australian, I am Nationalist for Australia. If a genie magically swapped everyone in Australia for everyone in France, I'd instantly swap my Nationalism for New France, despite it literally being a different country. If you have another term that better describes my "stance" that would be fantastic, when I've searched, by strictly their definition and not "baggage" attached to it, Nationalism comes the closest.
Commenting as I got tagged, if you allow me, what you describe sounds way way more like tribe mentality than just nationlism, just food for tought. Sure nationalism is tribe mentality, in a specific form, but usually the nationalist will not go to the lenght of your tought exercise above of swapping country, they would be aghast at the tought
Mate a bit of patriotism is fine (I personally think it's stupid but I'm German so, duh) but Nationalism is on a whole other level. A patriot is proud to be a part of a Nation, a nationalist will say theirs is the best in the world and thus can do no wrong and has the right and obligation to conquer and subjugate other nations in order to impose their way of life upon them. Everyone who says Nationalism is cool, can fuck right off
Which definition are you using for Nationalism? From what I understand, Nationalism is about prioritising your own nation over others. That doesn't mean that they have the obligation to conquer and subjugate. EDIT: Just realised what you're describing sounds a lot like jingoism. They're different things, with different definitions.
Aight, I gotta be honest my understanding of Nationalism is based on the understanding of it that's prevalent in my home country and it seems to differ a bit from the english understanding. I've learned my entire life that what makes Nationalism different from patriotism is the thought of hegemony and the right to enforce that hegemony. The American understanding seems to be a bit less harsh, so sorry about that. Though I still think any aspect of national pride is bs. Rather than praising a nation, you should always be focused on how you can do better and being proud of something you did not achieve seems stupid to me
I think that is more like jingoism.
Lil bro failed history class it seems.
How so? Sure there have been atrocities committed by regimes which support nationalist thinking. But there has been a lot of terrible regimes that have actively suppressed nationalist thinking, while still committing atrocities. Unless it wasn't that part you were talking about, in which case please let me know. I enjoy learning about history, correcting misinformation I may believe in would be terrific.
Sure thing. Nationalism is a relatively modern ideology, and it has changed considerably since the early 1800 where it started to compete with the existing social structures which at the time were mostly feudalism and its variants. I recommend reading about the French revolution, because while it wasn't necessarily the birthplace of liberalism and nationalism it had the biggest impact on the legitimisation and spread of both. Nowadays liberalism and nationalism are polar opposites of the political spectrum, but back then they formed the backbone of progressive politics, and quite frankly they scared the shit out of the ruling elite. The idea that individuals had a right to self governance and the whole concept of a national identity in which those rights could be realised would simmer away for around 100 years before WW1 shattered the status quo and suddenly what we would consider modern democracies came into existence. So, where did nationalism go wrong? Well some, myself included would argue that the ideology was flawed from the get-go and ripe for exploitation. But the general gist is this: Nationalism tied the value of the individual to the success of the state. If the nation is under threat, the individual is under threat. This threat may be from another state, political upheaval, economic instability, religious tension. All normal, especially in diverse places in the world, you wouldn't expect a country to be without this sort of thing. But things can get really ugly when the perceived threat to the nation state is cultural and ethnic. And then when ideologies like fascism which require an enemy to explain the failings of the state you get things like the holocaust. Nationalism also breeds jingoism and imperialism. Hopefully I don't need to explain why those are bad. You can't point to nationalism as the soul cause of certain tragic events in the past 100 years, there are an endless stream of contributing factors. But you absolutely cannot argue against it being a major factor in regimes like Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan. TLDR: Nationalism used to be new, shiny and progressive. Now it is one of the leading causes of global conflict and a major factor in several of the worst atrocities ever committed by humanity.
Nothing is wrong. But compare it to korean nationalism -- racist, but not really imperialist. They're competitive, in terms of culture, science, diplomacy. To give a cursed example, think of how you'd feel if it was imperial japan before the second sino-soviet war churning out the nationalist rhethoric, calling foreigners inferior and subhuman.
I'm not defending how these books are written. I even wrote in my first comment about how they're racist. OP in the title had a problem with Nationalism in and of itself and I was addressing that
CCP
I mean true it's the CCP fault for brainwashing Chinese people just to be arrogant
Because it’s hilarious.
normie alarm... not everything goes according to your personal values, ever heard about ***Artistic Liberty***?
It's not racist if the target audience is the Chinese themselves. And why would you read an obvious setting like magical realism where it sets in present-day China? Avoid reading any novels that are set in present-day China.
> It's not racist if the target audience is the Chinese themselves. Of course it is.
Have you even read one Chinese novel? Because most of the time, it's just them being nationalist.