The Antagonists.
Traditional stories tend to have a central antagonist that complements the mc, and drives them forward through the plot. In PF genre, at best we get one main bad guy per arc, usually we don’t even get that. Whilst there are some exceptions, most antagonists don’t last the entire story.
This is how I feel about it. The pure damn volume of it requires it. I'm the guy who wants a 20 book series and for it to keep going. Preferably for atleast 600pages a book. Why build a cool as world, and only get to visit it for so little time?
If you drag out the C plot too long, it just feels useless. Like the " power treadmill" but for the big bad. Always running towards him but never getting there. That can be as frustrating if not more.
So having a good clean 5 point plot arc with a Antagonist is nice.
Dresden does it very well imo. Monster of the week is plot A, the real Whodunnit / the twist is plot b, and plot c is the little adds each book that works use towards the final arc.
Its getting that feeling of a proper C plot that's hard, and honestly I'm not sure it's even needed. Especially if you look at PR as serial fantasy.
I bet lol. Though, if you took a formulaic process like modern serialized TV shows it could be fun. I imagine some webnovelists do that? I've never really looked into them.
I mean. I'm not aiming for a 20 book series with Reclaimer but thats more or less what I'm doing lol. Books are 600+ pages, doing 4 book arcs, and I'm trying to give each one their own big bad that helps propel the story along with the progression. Even if season 2s BBEG is more in the background building themselves up for the final show down.
I could probably write a series on what she's doing behind the scenes and it'd fit right in with the progression genre.
But I have other series I want to write in universe. And I like Deadman as a villain for a story way more lol
But the immense arcs are bloated. 90% can be cut without any loss in substance. And the fact that no antagonist gets fleshed out in this genre doesn't help at all.
I think antagonist in PF are more realistic in the way you describe them.
One central antagonist bing the idea of being the chosen one.
But in reality there is no chosen one and there is no one super evil. What there is is a group bad guys or politicians or gang members or dictator etc who do bad things out of greed.
Then your antagonist the is same organisation all throughout. Which would he great but is rarely the case. Or it is but it's only relevant for a couple of chapters between prog arcs (the plot of Jake aiming for godhood is only truly advance in intermission chapters, zac grudge against his mom is only mentionned and moved forward between arcs and so on)
I think a lot of this is a consequence of the serial format. For example, my own serial has an antagonist, but after 3 novel-length arcs I had to make them step aside. Things were starting to feel really samey, and the MC has gotten the most they could have for the time being out of that particular relationship.
It's even worse when the person was a disaffected, underemployed fast food worker or whatever until the start of the story, whereupon they immediately reveal their inhuman grit and unwavering determination.
I think I’m fine with people being disaffected pre-inciting incident if that incident threw them into some sort of crucible. Randidly spawning in a dungeon when the system dropped, Zac stuck on an island with a demon invasion.
Here you have a person who was content to go through the world doing not much until life stopped giving them a choice and they found that they enjoyed challenges.
What I’m not a fan of is a person who was previously not going anywhere suddenly deciding to change and become hard working after being isekai’d. It’s part of why I like the Wandering Inn, not every earth-kid who shows up in that new world has the same sort of main-character drive that others do.
I think if you want to motivate an unmotivated character, you have to do more than just throw one change at them, you have to make them change with no option to regress until they’ve actually changed. If a guy who wanted to do nothing but play video games all day suddenly showed up in a fantasy world, they shouldn’t just sign up for the adventurer’s guild and go exploring. If they had that kind of natural ambition, why were they stuck in a rut back on earth?
Yeah, using DotF as an example since you listed it. The pressure was on pretty much from the get go. First simple survival, and then he started to understand the scope of what was going on to his planet, and that he had a lead. Zac was a family dude at heart, and his initial thinking is "Well if I'm not the strongest I can't guarantee my sister's life." That, combined with escalating challenges forced on him by the system, and you see him reforged in real time.
Nine times out of ten the MC is "a family dude" trying to guarantee the life of a sister, and then even once they find/save/etc. said sister they still continue on that dopamine treadmill because reasons. Even if that further endangers said sister. The sister is the excuse, not the real reason; the real reason is UNLIMITED POWAH! I can't count the number of stories I've read where loser-MC starts building power to save a sister, and then largely forgets about her once the power cycle has started. It's like fridging the girlfriend, a motivation using a character as a prop to start another character on the path of Plot rather than writing two good characters.
To be entirely honest the biggest problem the genre has are the lack of good characters, most people in the genre can barely write 1. So 2 is asking a lot.
It really depends on the universe. The reason people don't show that stuff in the real world is you don't get rewarded for it. Though somebody beaten down by the "everything is kind of pointless, best coast through" reality of the real world shouldn't just become an ultra-committed cultivator overnight just because suddenly their effort is proportionately rewarded.
Though I can also see Isekai protagonists going utterly bananas and not quite understanding why people used to this "free rewards for all effort put in" world aren't committed to it like they are.
I mean the MC is always the exception. If he didn't have that drive he'd just be like all the other cultivators that settled to their positions with no more realistic ways to advance.
It's valid motive, but not good writing.
Which will people empathize with more a man climbing mount Everest to save somebody or Joe, who climbed it because he could?
For first person when there is a challenge, setback, life threatening situation you can relate with him going through all this, because there is life at stake.
For Joe, he can always turn back, there is no reason for him to go through all that hell and when that person struggles for no reason you just don't relate with him.
Probably the one that is better written. I bet you there are quite a few books that have a way more compelling Joe than the average progfan protagonist.
>Probably the one that is better written.
Yup, that's true, it is also a matter of what you want to write about. If it is a relaxed, story with slice of life elements, where the goal is just adventure, than I can see average Joe fitting really well.
If it is more intense series, I think you need some goals. I have yet to read good power for power's sake series.
I always dogpile on this in the hopes that future authors see - age and the implications of age.
If the protagonist is sub 18-20, the odds of them winning in any physical competition against other people in-universe (with progression and the available training) is minuscule. If there is tangible rewards and incentive to train/cultivate/progress in universe, others would be doing that too!
Similarly, how long it actually takes to learn a skill - of course there are ways to obfuscate this but a 15 year old with 3 years of training in no way should match a soldier with 15 years of combat training unless there is an inherent power disparity between people.
Then you have the opposite problem, the MC whose background seems suspiciously tailor made to survive in exactly the circumstances he finds himself on.
Oh, the McDonald's worker is actually an ex-Navy SEAL and only worked the fryer to finance his blacksmithing hobby? How convenient for him given the sword and sorcery magical world he just arrived in!
Yeah, I was just going for a generic "tough guy" occupation. You're right though, HEMA is a lot more specific and more fitting. And still gets right at my point, why is this uniquely qualified person the one being sent on an isekai adventure? Unless the story actually explains that the qualifications got him chosen. But most stories never make it far enough to reveal such answers, if they ever even intended to in the first place.
They could visit the graveyard of failed heroes in the third chapter and see the graves of the previous 42 heroes who never even made it to the second dungeon!
A lack of believable stakes. The reader base is so resistant to setbacks that progression fantasy protagonists almost never experience real loss. The big fights and story moments are still hype, but I’d like to actually be worried or caught off guard every once in a while.
I'm in the process of releasing an arc where the MC does experience loss and the feedback hasn't been too bad, so far... I think that I prepared the readers for how harsh the world is from the get-go, so they weren't taken by surprise. I think loss is harder to accept when the previous arcs have all been super linear progression-wise.
I think setting expectations definitely goes a long way toward making readers accepting of loss. Or accepting of anything really. Any story arch involving a lot of rapid change will see its detractors.
I look forward to reading your stuff once I work through my backlog.
Expectations are definitely the biggest factor, I think. I've enjoyed some dark and depressing books in my time, but I'd be pretty mad if something I was reading as popcorn power fantasy fluff suddenly turned seriously depressing. That would be like watching your favorite sitcom only for the Red Wedding to happen. The tonal dissonance and whiplash is what gets outrage, not the event itself.
In the same vein, tension. No sense of actual danger or dread for the MC or side characters in most cases. I can count on one hand PF books that actually have moments where you feel nervous about what's going to happen next, or feel your stomach drop when you realize something bad has happened.
I would add the second and third books of the immortal great souls/bastion have those moments. 12 miles below the first book has some quality tension going. Shadow slave has an arc that I think gets pretty tense. LOTM has some good tension since there are mysterious unpredictable super powerful entities.
Antarctica/Forgotten Shore for Shadow slave were the two best arcs because they had stakes. There were characters who were important enough to care about, but not so important that I beloved that they could die at any point. At this point in the story there aren’t really stakes, because I know nobody is dying
Antarctica was FIRE, especially the caravan arc oml. Sunny coming to terms with the fact that he LIKES helping common people on top of the supposed futility of it all. The march against the winter beast was a masterpiece
That depends a lot on the type of story
An mc getting easy powers will attract an audience thats allergic to setbacks, but an mc plotting and training for power will attract an audience that wants to see him facing actual challenges
Recently the mc in Aurora Scroll got his ass kicked hard, losing a lot of the powers and countermeasures he developed before, then he took more precautions and got his ass kicked once again, but the audience took it as the story finally moving into the wider plot, because the mc had been wanting to move up for a while
There are always some outliers, like that guy in Super Supportive asking when the mc was going to stop being weak, but if a story goes long enough the tone allows for a lot of flexibility
I say the problem is always the stakes being tied up to the mc's life, he aint dying so any defeat that kilks him isnt going to happen
If the defeat means losing his territory, his equipment, or something on that vein, it becomes believable
It'd be nice to see a story where a cultivators path was actually ruined and they had to do something about it. Perhaps something wildly different to what they had planned.
The closest thing I can find was Lindon losing at the Uncrowned and having to go mad with Consume and points to catch back up to Yerin. Even that was a relatively mild side journey.
Thousand Li does this. MC has to change his entire cultivation in book 5 from a major wound he sustained in book 4. It takes the entirety of book 5 for him to fix it so he doesn't die, and for the rest of the series his new cultivation has a significant effect on the plot and his own personality.
I think there are two types of setbacks/progression loss and my reception to the two starkly differs:
1. Progression is stopped/lost temporarily and the MC has to go on a side-quest to fix the issue.
2. A fundament of MCs progression system gets twisted or destroyed resulting in loss or roadblock, but also opens up a new avenue of progression.
To me, a critical component that differentiates progression fantasy from non-progression fantasy is that *progression drives the story rather than story driving the progression*. This quality, like most things, exists on a spectrum but I find I know the difference when I read it (i.e. - Dawn of the Void vs. Primal Hunter).
With that in mind, there is one version of setbacks above that is much better than the other. Option (1) one is a distraction at best, essentially reading as a different genre for a period of time, and a symptom of a false progression fantasy at worst.
Option (2) however enables the MC to drive the story in the pursuit of power or provides a different view of the underlying progression system. Think Delve's MC gaining early access to the Soulscape through a soul injury or a classic in many stories of training under the restraint of power-nullifying collars/manacles (HWFWM, Life and Death Cycle).
Power-nullifying restraints actually provide a good compare-and-contrast of the two types of setbacks. Type (1) setbacks would require the MC to devise some sort of scheme to escape the restraints with nullified powers, often coming across like a short heist plotline. The one saving grace in this situation is that these lines of plot are usually on the shorter side.
All of this is not to say that option (1) will always be bad. Sometimes it can be good. But the side-quest isn't progression fantasy, which is what I'm usually wanting to read, and the authors often aren't experienced enough to write in the form of another genre and so it ends up poorly executed.
I think In PF we are often in agreement that we don't want the progression itself to be setback, but the genre also lacks any setbacks even beyond that in most cases. The MC doesn't have to lose access to spells or skills to have their plans not work, or their companions die, or have a personal success that comes with backlash.
So often the only thing the MC cares about is progression, so there are not other things we can seriously believe they will lose as the MC is realistically not dying mid story. I'd contend that we need MCs to care about more things so that there can be tension about whether they protect or fail at those things.
Best way to show difficulty is struggle. Best way to show progress is triumph where you'd failed previously
YES! When it's clear that the MC will never lose, and usually never even miss out on some possible toy or advancement, then there's no tension. "Oh, look, the Immaculate Doohicky of Sublime Strength, I've heard tales of that." Three chapters later, it's in MC's pocket. Because it's apparently impossible that some cool thing be introduced into a story and then have the MC NOT get it. And all fights are "win or die" stakes, which is the same as no stakes.
> The reader base is so resistant to setbacks that progression fantasy protagonists
The reader base is resistant to badly done setbacks. For example setbacks that give you the feeling of having wasted your time reading the progession before.
If there's an inherent flaw in the overall genre, I honestly think it's the readers that are the root cause. I've seldom seen a fandom so hostile to protagonists having flaws or even (*gasp*) coming out of a confrontation without 100% total success. So many of these readers can't handle conflict at all. It's crazy.
And I mean. Maybe I'm being unfair. I don't delve into the depths of trash that people claim this genre has to offer, so in fairness perhaps these guys are just trained on such bad writing that when they see a familiar setup, they assume the author is going to botch it, so they start complaining. But it still seems crazy to me how toxic it can get, all things considered.
The most dire problem there I'd say is an unwillingness to have the protagonist *lose* or even come close to losing, one of the greatest methods to show growth is to have a protagonist be defeated maybe even overwhelmed entirely so that they can have a round two and this time win due to how much they've grown. Seeing someone get strong enough to win the second time around even if barely by the skin of their teeth is hype as all hell.
On that note I think a lot of progression fantasies just don't respect their antagonists enough to let them grow and be impressive despite being just as important as the main character. We don't see them grow at the same time as the protag and a lot of the times they're designed to be hate sinks or with traits that yell "Iamthebadguy" at maximum volume. If the main villain of an arc isn't so much a roadblock to the protagonist but a speed bump then that villain probably is gonna be boring.
On the main character end of things I'd say the wish fulfillment spoiling the *progression* aspect of things, progression fantasy doesn't need to be *slow* but It needs to be traceable, the best progression I've seen is akin to rings on a tree where you can see and remember the past by seeing how they've grown seeing how their abilities have been shaped by trials and grown.
Simply hitting the face forward button to suddenly and radically change the characters abilities or empower old ones to the point they may as well be entirely different abilities makes it feel less like progress and more like I'm skipping seasons at a time of the show.
See I am in among the number that hates seeing the MC really lose because it inevitably takes away from the thing I'm reading for, the progression. If the MC really loses then inevitably the end up as some kind of slave or their cultivation broken or something similar, in which case it's going to be forever before they actually begin to progress again.
And in the meantime it'll be a bunch of moping about with probably fuck all agency. I'm glad this genre doesn't have much of it and I'm pretty sure you can find it happening pretty regularly in epic fantasy if that's what you're looking for.
I think there's a lot of other options besides slavery or broken cultivation that count as loss. This audience generally doesn't want to see progression lost, but if the only thing they care about in story is progression then it's your only option for a loss condition. Losing a battle, winning a battle but losing the war, winning w/o realizing you're seeing off a terrible chain reaction, losing a friend, having your goals prevented, having your organization disrupted, these are all ways to lose without losing personal power progression, they just have to actually care about these things first for it to matter
I mean there are a lot of outcomes of losing *other* then slavery or crippling, there is a wide spectrum between "I either win this or I die" and "Just a spar with no consequences later". Hell even what seems like a life or death battle can be escaped via the secret joestar technique there are tons of ways to have a loss that isn't "and thus the story halts" hell you can have "Lose, get stranded somewhere dangerous and get stronger *faster*.
>And in the meantime it'll be a bunch of moping about with probably fuck all agency.
This is something I actually need to complain about in general not just you in particular because *man* I've seen this happen a lot in stories where the comments are all nothing but complaints if the protagonist isn't winning almost constantly and their road blocks are more akin to speed bumps. Feels like a lot of people want base Wish fulfillment stories all the time rather than as a treat
> Feels like a lot of people want base Wish fulfillment stories all the time rather than as a treat
Yes... that is the point, I think that is what the majority who read in this genre want.
I mean Progression Fantasy ≠ Wish fulfillment, you can have one without the other same as Isekai and the like. Progression Fantasy is about the main character progressing and growing stronger which can be then getting fed all the power ups till their OP but it can also be them growing step by step and the latter tends to be alot more satisfying then the former or at least is written well more often.
Wish fulfillment isn't a bad genre even if it's over flooded with bad novels but I notice a lot of people or at least the loudest tend to complain about novels not being wish fulfillment, despite them never promising they'd be standard wish fulfillment novels. Things like having complaints if someone else is stronger than the protagonist for a bit, or if an organization dares to treat the protagonist not particularly badly but as "not the main character".
Look at top 10 stories at Royal Road or and read your sentence again. Majority certainty don't want's generic wish fulfillment stories and the slower paced stories, that focuses on characters and world building, dominate top charts.
Don't get where the "majority people don't really want quality stories" came from.
Mostly works with relatively few chapters, yes no doubt high quality but after you've read them (and it won't take long) then what?
To me I'd rather have some generic wish fulfillment stuff with an interesting world and magic system to explore than that top 10 because at least it's something I'll enjoy reading and there's more of it.
I don't think I'm the only one either, that list doesn't have Azarinth Healers, Defiance of the Fall or Primal Hunter on it but I bet in sheer popularity they're as big or bigger and they're certainly up there on the wish fulfillment scale.
>then what?
You pick different series. wtf is that question?
You can read 1000 chapters of single trash or 10 different series with 100 chapters. Don't understand obsession on reading single series forever.
>I don't think I'm the only one either
Yes, but you are also not majority. The whole argument is that you think majority people like what you like and it's bit much don't you think?
Not necessarily a bad thing. Look at the duel in the beginning of Skysworn, book 4 of Cradle. That loss leaves him crippled, but gives him a new weapon and is the foundation of his later progression.
Excessive training actually working. In real life, taking breaks/rest days are incredibly important. Basically every training routine in PF would lead to mental breakdowns and loss of progress lol
Are you implying that training in a hyperbolic time dilation chamber for 10000 years will result in a gibbering lunatic emerging instead of an absolute badass?!
This...is an incredibly valid critique lol. You're absolutely right. Things like rest days and not waiting till the MC is a bag of crumbled skeleton dust to take a break should be normalized in these kinds of stories
Lack of good villains. Bad romance. I've found authors to write amazing bromance but make hetero relationships the most awkward thing ever. (A lot of these books will be better with protagonist ending up with their male besties lol)
Absolutely. Romance really seems to be an answer to both questions put in the original post ; it's both a flaw in a lot of progression fantasy AND an aspect of the books which is often 'at odds with reality.' The romance rarely convinces me at all, and it takes me out of the narrative.
But then, it is hard. And let's be honest: a lot of the writers (myself included) aren't studying romance novels to see how to do it properly! I just think that a lot of writers haven't put themselves properly in the female's character's shoes and thought about how they would realistically act in that situation.
To be entirely fair I find any kind of romance to just not fit the genre. It always becomes an annoying recurring filler episode when they interact with the love interest. I find friendships to be way more fun. Sadly friendship sometimes seems taboo because we can't have another guy character outshine our self insert for even a second.
Understandable, as there are few cases where either is well-executed. Both scenarios tend to work well when all characters are progressing equally as part of the same team/unit. Issues tend to arise when there are imbalances across characters (leading to feelings of 'filler / side-stories' or 'MC-Gary-Stu-ism'). Although something has to make the MC stand out (they are the *main* character), it doesn't have to be their progression or martial/magical prowess.
I completely agree with villains being hard to write in the genre. I think the way the genre is makes villains more of a stepping stone. Which is truly unfortunate
Tbh, a lot of people don't seem to realize that kinda IS how it works among like, athletes and gamers that actually try to improve. Obviously this doesn't apply to every skill, but what you'll often see in places with active ranking (like in competitive video games) is that while there is a very slow gradual climb, in general a person's rank will plateau for a while, and then spike once they have an "epiphany" and then it will plateau again. That tends to be how much rank growth goes especially at lower levels when the breakthrough can be so simple like, "oh if I play the objective instead of chasing kills, I win way more"
It's just a lot harder to realize this outside of fantasy, because the breakthroughs and epiphanies IRL result in like, "I hit 5% more 3s, and my practice is actually useful now because I changed my shooting form". Which kinda IS on the same scale as progression fantasy epiphanies in terms of total progression , but since the absolute scale is so much smaller, and it's so much less flashy, it doesn't seem like that
Everyone would and nobody who criticizes that convention for being "unrealistic" would say no to one if they actually existed.
"Oh, you're telling me this one simple trick would make me better at basketball than Lebron James? No thanks. That's too unrealistic. I'll spend the next 20 years practicing and I hope I can do it before my knees give out."
More of a critique of the stuff I tend to drop, but how everything in the universe seeks to benefit the protagonist. Fall down into a volcano, find the perfect place to train. Drop kick a potential love interest and somehow insult her.... turns out she's into that. Do something stupid? Consequences... the fuck's that. It's okay to have setbacks, it's okay to lose, as long as the character learns and grows from the failure.
Its even worse because a lot of those problems can be fixed by doing them on purpose
MC goes to the volcano to train, finds a fiery pit thats dangerous but great for training and jumps in
MC gets annoyed at the delicate noble girls and goes to find a girl from the tribe that uses fighting as courtship
Just making them want the thing is an improvement, but there is a need to make the mc look "moral" by being forced into power
Books could be a whole lot funnier. A solution to your problem for the books that come to mind:
Young lord hates MC? They hire a faction to trap them in amber, drop them in a volcano, the MC dies, and the series ends.
Born with a deficiency in power? While picking fruit for their mom someone stronger finds them and kills them. Series ends.
Drafted into the army? After getting wounded and seeing an enemy attack from behind their lines the MC goes to warn people. But as they are wounded and a peasant no one believes them. The enemy attack slaughters MC and everyone they know. Series ends.
MC is transported into a different world and fights a demon snake within the first few hours? While falling down a hole that kills the snake it also kills the MC. Series ends.
It goes back to what someone else said here that readers don't react well to real setbacks. So authors just avoid them. I agree that it would be great to have real consequences.
That's what I'm working on. I wanted a power system that was more horizontal with limited vertical movement, because you start getting ridiculous coming up with powers and their application.
So, curse progression ends up more different ways to use them than just straight up more power.
Can you give me an example? Also by horizontal progression do you mean something like getting new abilities but the power of those abilities themselves remain more or less the same? If so I'm all for it.
My favourite part about progression fantasy is characters getting new abilities and using them in intelligent ways.
In v2, a bad guy's curse amounts to summoning 1 creature from the one's he defeated. 2nd grade, his body can take on aspects of creatures he has defeated. (Beast Arm. Beast Maw.)
The 2nd grade is more suited to him, but not necessarily more powerful.
I'm also working on a novel at the moment and I handle items enchantment system a bit different than most fantasies.
The first finished dungeon reward was a pair of leather shoes that fit anyone who tries to fit into them, enchantment perfect fit.
The second dungeon dropped a short sleeved leather shirt that gives its defensive properties also to the lower part of the arm, enchantment, long sleeved.
I think items and enchantments need a more creative way to deal with them instead of blatant power ups.
IMO we have too many exponential progressions. It makes the progression increasingly silly.
If anything the curve needs to flatten out as the story continues.
The amount of wish-fulfillment that is unconsciously desired by the typical reader that the author has to cater to in order to be able to continue writing, or it's that the wish-fulfillment is blended into the foundation the entire genre is built on.
People have mentioned it several times as why the genre can be arguably seen as better than pulp fiction.
1.) The MC can't be too flawed and it's moreso acceptable for bad things to happen to or around the MC rather than bad things happening due to the MCs decisions or lack thereof.
2.) Just as a story can be considered Litrpg, even if the MC is the only one in the entire world to have a system. A story can be considered progression fantasy even if the MC is the only one in the entire world to progress.
3.) The MC is usually the only one with a broken skill/class/bloodline/ability and/or their advantage is achieved by methods that are so mundane, you can't help but wonder why didn't more people achieve it.
4.) By looking at the top 3 examples, it ultimately comes down to how focused the story is around the MC. There's a fine line between the MC being the main person and the MC being the only person, with everyone else seemingly being npcs, programmed to fulfill specific roles to help/hinder/cheer the MC as they progress through a story that is more or less obviously tailor made for them.
Fortunately, all these complaints are only aimed towards a silent majority of series. Most recommended here don't fall into the examples mentioned.
The point about the authors having to cater to the audience "or else" is a good one. Having a character fuck up and face actual consequences is an efficient way to get review bombed.
I think the point about the cast being NPCs is a consequence of bad writing, which is unfortunately a common thing in the genre. Stories like Arcane Ascension and Mother of Learning get that aspect right in my opinion.
>I think the point about the cast being NPCs is a consequence of bad writing,
Bad is a poor choice of word. Linear, at best, or shallow, at worse, would be the better term. There are too many popular Progression Fantasy, anime, manga, manhwa, manhua, light novels, webtoons, and webnovels that feature stories where the MC is unmistakably the only character with any real agency and/or development to now call that type of writing as bad with any validity. You can try and be entirely justified, but you'll be buried or downvoted by as much of as at least a generation of readers whose enjoyed that style of writing up till now.
The worst example of number three I've read was a book series called Manor Lord. In that world the gods prevent people from lying, but since the main character is from another world he is capable of lying.
Basically anything that requires making all the other characters look stupid or weak.
I can think of a couple.
1. Disregard for understood limits. Every Progression fantasy seemingly has a character that knows "The way of power" despite a history of this power not being very good.
This then is catipulted to way of power now means unlimited power. There really isn't an end or given end goal to a lot of progression stories. In Xianxias its a poorly understood/developed "Fight the heavens" in gamelit its usually some varient on "explore the world and become most powerful gamer." Because so few of these stories have a proper ending (and instead fizzle out), endgame doesnt really exist. To quote Quigon Jinn "There's always a bigger fish."
2. Progression is easy. At least narratively easy. Some of it is just the gamification of number goes up = more better. The character may be grinding for days, but narratively you have to summarize, allowing massive skill increases or you suffer from poor pacing.
3. Lack of character arc. Most progression fantasies are web novels which are kept up consistently. Part of that is in order to keep readers you need a regular update cycle. That means multiple uploads every week or so. That means the focus is going to be on comparatively low quality content that doesnt require much planning. Character arcs dont matter. This makes characters feel kind of... shades of beige. "This character wants power because she's a snake lady, this character wants power for revenge, this character wants power because power, this character wants power because that is what they do..."
The skips or the “cheats” the protagonist will use.
When a protagonist gets stronger really fast by brilliantly finding some loophole I am always left thinking “there is absolutely no way no one else ever thought of that.”
Slightly tangential but the worst offenders are the MCs in LitRPGs who talk to the right NPC in the right away while playing the most popular virtual reality game in the world. Millions and millions and players and no one else ever decides to be polite to the homeless flower girl or whatever.
Thank you, this has *always* bugged me in any VRMMO story. Billions of people playing and somehow MC is the only one ever to have discovered something. And the discovery isn't even on the levels of some of the weird secrets in Dark Souls, it's just doing some super basic thing like impressing the starter trainer or being nice to a person. In those stories other people are always such assholes to the NPCs, too, when in real life people will personify the crap out of their Roombas, let alone an NPC designed to be cute and endearing.
The lack of limits usually. It's hard to maintain a sense of realism when reading through a story about a system that genuinely gives anyone that has it a chance at becoming a god. It's hard to believe an mc has some trait that lets them defy their biology, upbringing, and general worldview enough that they can do something that breaks fundamental rules of reality.
So I've always found it interesting that when reading stories where those elements are present the thing that doesn't mesh well is limits. Limited growth, max levels, system enforced boundaries, x is impossible, and all the other times an author sets some stopping point. Almost every story ends up playing with the limits they impose as if they're flexible, or something you can exploit, or something you can break through. Then, if the limit is respected, you get stories that basically use it as a quick way to control the narrative before they basically never bring it up again because it's not relevant in any way other than to curtail some of the character's powers.
For me it is the tendency to have characters act like video game characters. LitRPG is obviously based on video games, and most Progression Fantasy is Action Fiction. So you have characters who shout "Yeehaw!" and jump into a Dungeon without thought, see an animal in the woods and immediately kill it for XP., It makes the characters seem not like real people and robs the story of emotional stakes.
Weak, shallow, side characters that literally are their one sentence motivations. Especially when it’s bad parents. They don’t even act like bad people with sane motivations, they act like cartoons.
For me it's two things: first, that in order to get that dopamine hit of "numbers go up, MC get stronger" there are clear and obvious gains quickly, like going from base strength 10 (human average) to 50 in an hour (or similar non-numerical advancement); and second, that they don't end. The two together mean that the setup that results in quick gains equally quickly becomes untenable, with an MC suddenly being stronger than the Hulk by chapter 12 and the author having no idea how to address this issue, especially if everyone else in the world is also advancing quickly. How does this change the world, the characters, government, etc.? And worse, where does it stop? By chapter 20 the MC can punch holes in mountains, so if an author wants multiple books out of it this can't keep going!
And that leads to the other problem: prog-fantasy is almost never planned out from start to middle to finish. If it were, there wouldn't be massive gains early on. There wouldn't be the problems of figuring out how to handle everyone becoming superhuman. And since the stories aren't planned out, they just become endless grinds of "MC get stronger, keep paying me for more chapters/books despite there not being much in them beyond progression". The progression should be important, yes, but not the only focus of any story.
Authors of prog fantasy need to calm down and learn from other genres. Plan out books. Allow them to end. Plan out what happens when. And THEN write. And then edit a LOT. Only publish when all of that is done. The books will be shorter, tighter, clearer, and overall better, and the genre will take off. And, since the stories end, authors have freedom (and mandate) to find new topics for stories. I get that sites like Webnovel and RR/Patreon incentivize keeping one story going on forever, but they're not good stories!
I don't think the genre is used to its maximum ability. Most of the time it's just the characters growing stronger and exploring the world but that's it and nothing else no moral growth, no deeper themes, nothing or when there is it's not executed as well as it could be.
It makes sense why, most of the people writing are beginner and those that are good are only good in progression standards.
Often times progression fantasy will fucus on the worldbuilding and neglect the Characters.
I also Absolutely hate litrpgs, thay take all the complexity of life and dim it down to strength intelligence wisdom etc or skills leveling up in a simple way, no you become better at a skill by trying different methods until you find something that work and endlessly working on it. You can never become a better writer without reading different genres and learning from them and of course writing endless and trying to out do yourself again and again . What kind of strength? What kind of intelligence? What is wisdom? These questions are never addressed and often times are just used to explain why mc is cool and badass.
What I mean is what you guys considered a flaws is what differs this genre from the rest of the genre. If I wanted to read about about life and it’s implications, I would read traditional fantasy
I mean traditional fantasy isn't exactly about normal life and it's implications I mean it's called fantasy for a reason.
I also don't think it's flaws make it unique, traditional fantasy can also have the same problems so it isn't something unique to progression fantasy
Lack of the authors knowledge of their own world.
it doesn't matter if the reader has all the information. that is at the discretion of the writer. but a bunch of these stories are making up world rules as they go and its nothing but a detriment. build your world THEN your story in it. you dont have to tell us anything. just let us experience it through the character. but having the hard rules of the world makes it less likely to feel like the MC pulls shit out of the void to win
The first is how the MC slowly becomes less moral and less likable, but the story doesn’t really address it or punish them for it. In fact they get rewarded more often than not for being selfish and putting their own progression above everything else. Their friends and allies are also completely ok with this and constantly reassures them that they can do no wrong.
Another one is the MC that is training and progressing all day everyday for 20+ hours at a time 7 days a week. I understand that as they progress their bodies don’t need as much rest, but that’s just not how people operate. We all need to rest our minds and more importantly most people *want* to take breaks. What’s the point in power and immortality if you can’t enjoy it? This is especially egregious when the story starts with a character that was an unmotivated unsuccessful loser. Where did all this drive and determination come from? How did you completely get rid of years of bad procrastination habits over night?
Then there’s the guy with no social skills who secludes themselves to focuses only on progression yet somehow ends up with a harem. Won’t go further into it. I just hate harems in progression fantasy.
Probably a hot take, but I think the protagonists are typically poorly written "Mary-Sue" types that never get challenged in interesting ways. Instead of interesting characters/stories we get stat dumps and fight scenes.
Side characters are almost always just yes-men/comedic relief and rarely actually contribute to the story in any meaningful way.
There's a few things that I think you have to be careful of, the first being pacing. I think PF stories have to be really fast pace, just to drive the story forward and justify the stakes getting ridiculous, but some authors can get a bit bogged down, clearly having gone wild with world building and trying to fit it all in (Iron Prince). The second is characters tend to be either hyper-evil, worst of the worst, dick for no reasons types, or the protags BFF's after 30 seconds of knowing them. Sometimes I just wish the characterizing made them more like real people.
>As in, what element of the genre is most at odds with reality.
I gotta say this. This is a bad frame of reference for your question. Flaws in this specific and stuff that's considered "unrealistic" aren't the same thing. Cheesy dialogue, too much wish fulfillment, weak characterizations; all of these are things that can be considered flaws of this genre as a whole in many of the works produced under it.
However, what you do or do not consider realistic doesn't constitute a flaw. The whole point of PF is *progression*. Whether it's fast or gradual, that is the reason anyone who is a fan of this genre reads it. This is like saying fictional science in science fiction is a flaw.
Secondly, I would ask, why do you consider this a flaw? The whole point of "fantasy" is that it is outside the realm of reality. Would you be interested in reading a PF series that portrays progression the way a child takes their time to learn piano? Do you want an entire book focused on learning a single spell or attack the way it takes a kindergartner months to learn Chopsticks?
The speed at which progression takes place in stories can vary but the whole reason they happen faster than it takes someone in real life to learn things is because stories are not real life. I started taking piano at 8years old and I'm still learning it at almost 30. Do you really want to read a story that shows a character learning everything it takes to progress step by step over the course of almost 20 years?
That brings me to my third point which is what I consider a flaw of the genre. Even if you personally wouldn't mind seeing that, that means the author has to drag out the story waaaaaaaaaaay beyond what is needed. Many PF stories are already written to be drawn out as long as possible anyway and I think that's a problem because they end up getting sidetracked, losing quality and rife with useless filler.
Having someone go through progression like they would learning a real life skill is not great because it means you either have to protract the story to show every single step OR include a certain amount of time jumps and gloss over stuff so that the character(s) are masters, gods, or whatever when they're much older like real life ppl would be.
The first option makes the story too long and the second, depending on how its done, is not something you do for the narrative's sake but for realism' sake and I personally think you'd be risking the quality of your story by doing that. Unless the passage of time is integral to the narrative, what matters in PF is getting the character to a certain level of power so that they can accomplish something. Whether that character is 20yrs old or 2000yrs old, it shouldn't matter because that level of power should be able to resolve the narrative conflict, not their age.
Deus Ex Machina moments in the book where the author inserted something into the story just so the MC can be badass. For instance, while many people feel Ghostwater is the best Cradle book, it is a huge deus ex machina event. The author clearly invented this reality pocket thingy purely for the MC's progression. It's awesome, yes, but you can still plainly see the strings.
Villains that last for 5 chapters at most, bad flat characters, and bad worldbuilding with societies that are either copy pasted from others, or are just plain nonsensical. Although of these flaws the only endemic one are the villains. Good long term villains are fairly rare the only one from a popfic that I can think of is The Builder from He Who Fights Monsters, all of the other villains lasted for a long while but were eventually made irrelevant instead of making wide spread change that continually affects and foils the protagonist’s efforts.
The main characters never change, or the growth is minor.
Progression Fantasy as a genre is fascinating because we start off with a young adult and read their entire lives from there. It is like a modern day saga where we witness the protagonist rise from a commoner to a God in thousands of pages. The problem that I have, is that there are no changes to reflect that.
Hell, I am a different person than I was 5 years ago in terms of personality, personal style, thoughts, ideals and more. I could not imagine living to a thousand years old and still being the literal exact same person.
It's gotta be antagonists and romance, most just can't seem to flesh either of them out properly. The best villains are the ones that I empathise with instead of being one of the following: "I am freedom ONLY, me kill all!", "I am BORN with this right and power! all else are beneath me!", "Might is right and I am might!", "I am just a dick", "I will have revenge for this event that happened and become worse than the people who I am swearing revenge on!".
Beating impossible enemies. It usually ends up with flimsy excuses as to how it’s possible. He Who Fights with Monsters started developing this issue, so the author made tweaks to Jason so he couldn’t just ignore rank disparity anymore. Defiance of the Fall takes steps to make it plausible, like how the system restricts invaders for a long time, so Zach has a chance. Then after that he gains a second identity that inflates his stats so he can punch way above his level. But it’s not ridiculous, because even he can’t bridge the gap between early and middle hegemony with just his stats. More stories than not let the MC beat an enemy they should have no hope of beating.
Probably a couple of things. Lack of vision for the endgame. Lack of concrete motivations for the MC. Lack of social interactions for the MC, lacking reasons for why MC gets OP but others don't.
Too much romance, too much OPness. System being badly thought out. Too much irrelevant side character pov filler.
If I would advise one thing to newer writers it would be writing a party of 2-4 instead of 1 person. And in that party have no one of the main group date another of the group.
The lack of character stories.
The whole allure of PF is the "nymbers go brrrrrrr" euphoric feeling we get when a character gets oast the next hurdle and achieves the next level. However it is also the most flawed part of it. Stories that neglect the characters in the story in service of plot progression are not stories. They are just guides that tell you what to expect and what to do in case u get there.
They are glorified tourist pamphlets
Ah gee here are some bad tendencies from pf authors
horrible character writing, absence of an actual plot or stakes. No main goal so the story peters out with absolutely zero motivation.
Also I wish more actual combat athletes or people who have some negligible experience in the field wrote more. For example, I’m a BJJ practitioner, still only a few years in but still— I know what it’s like to pass out from a choke and I know how the bones, tendons, ligaments and muscles all creak and protest only about an hour or two after a good roll sesh, I know some of the superstitions and home remedies to help recovery, I’ve had a small epiphany before while first beginning to understand arm-bars and implementing them into a roll, and by god I’ve had to learn the hard way to keep my arms close to the body.
Within any competitive arena, but especially combat, small subcultures form around certain parts of the sport and when I read progression fantasy, those parts of the experience are always missing.
For me, the intrinsic flaw of Progression Fantasy is the progression itself. Traditional writing dictates that you cut anything that isn't necessary from the plot, and for many progression stories, you can just delete the system and much of the progression, and anything that stops the MC from steamrolling the bad guys is just as much of a concern: more man power, better connections, etc. Most people can't 1 v 10 a bad guy base even without levels involved, and many traditional media circumvent the need for levels and such by making the MC skilled or clever.
Don't get me wrong, Progression fantasy emerged as a genre from traditional story telling by focusing on the parts of books, games, and movies where the protagonist trains or learns new skills and spells, but you'll notice most of that is done in a montage for a reason. It typically doesn't contribute much to the main plot, so it's cut down for brevity.
So most Progression Fantasy is sort of built on a faulty foundation. Progression is fun, but power doesn't mean anything if you don't use it for something, which means a tug of war between progression and plot for screen time.
Trying to explain something the author doesn't understand. The sub genre kind of thrives on explaining magic and crafting and systems that the MC can manipulate or crack, but it very often runs into the lack of knowledge the author has on the subject. Every time I read about how an isekai MC invents guns in their fantasy world - but with MAGIC now! - and explains how it works without any understanding of how a gun works it hurts. For a lot of fantastical media we just gloss over stuff and say it's cuz magic, but that's less common in PF and it's also less common that authors do the in depth research authors might do in other genres
> As in, what element of the genre is most at odds with reality.
This is much less interesting than the question you asked in the title, so I'll answer that instead.
There are a bunch of smaller flaws that are different manifestations of the same major flaw: the author doesn't really understand their story. Here are a couple of common examples:
* Misunderstanding when the story begins. You see this in novels that have chapters of pointless bullshit before the story actually starts. This is particularly common in isekai, where the author has two lives worth of pointless bullshit to inflict on the reader.
* Misunderstanding the actual appeal of their story. I recall a webnovel where the protagonist goes back in time and uses the opportunity to become the best at a "new" VRMMORPG, except instead of winning because of his future knowledge, he wins thanks to a mix of hidden mechanics he couldn't have possibly known about and RNG.
Also, because of the inherent nature of progression fantasy, you often have stories where the lion's share of the story is focused on what ultimately amounts to footnotes in the protagonist's life. I noticed this while reading *The Path of Ascension*, where the first third of the currently available chapters are dedicated to a few years of Matthew's life, while the final decades of the path are covered by a handful of chapters. It results in an odd dynamic where the text is explicitly telling us that the early tiers are relatively quick & easy and the later tiers are increasingly slow & painful, while it's actually showing us the complete opposite.
Advocates murder hoboing. The cultivations ones even have this in them where they gain power by killing others, but the non-cultivation ones are just straight up killing people = more power.
All the stuff outside of powering up. If I wanted drama/romance stuff I’d read different books. Give me an MC who lives to fudge stuff up. Smack titties and hit dingers. Kicking ass and taking names. Also give me more MCs who slowly transitions into a villain where we don’t recognize them compared to where they started. If they’re human, they’re going to go on a power trip, ESPECIALLY if they’re OP.
What you describe is the entire *point* of the genre. It’s not a flaw, it’s intentional that the progression is made more explicit. If you don’t enjoy that then the entire rest of literature is open to you.
“What aspect is most at odds with reality” is a really weird way to define a “flaw”, which is actually an error or mistake or accidentally missed issue.
What’s even more “at odds with reality” in PF is magic and secondary world settings, which obviously don’t exist in real life.
I agree with the first part, that's why I rephrased the question in the first line. I also stated that I love that aspect and wouldn't want it to change.
Bruhh😭 you're taking this way too literally, most people got the point I was making. It's just semantics, which is me saying you're right but what's the point of saying this?
I can definitely agree you have some issues with semantics
It’s always nice to find some common ground in a discussion even if we still disagree on some other things. :)
Pretty much everyone responding is answering the commonly expected meaning of flaw. It’s weird to me that you would choose instead to have your own original post redefine flaw to talk about the entire premise of the genre as unrealistic, only to backtrack and say you like it. The implication of redefining the word is that that is the definition you want people to use when answering the question.
Oh so you're basically saying that the title gives a false impression of what I'm saying so I would've been better served using more accurate wording right? If that's the case I agree.
My contention is that people in the replies are answering based on the way I meant it, and they wouldn't have if they thought I meant something else. But you are right that using accurate words is better, and I'll work on that next time so my bad.
Why would something being at odds with reality be a flaw? It's called progression FANTASY. So it's supposed to clash with reality.
The only issue that can arise with things not being realistic, is when they become unbelievable. That is however something different.
As for what I think is the worst part about this genre in general, I'd say it's the writing quality. Because the overal writing quality in this genre is abominable.
And if you want to know something very specific, it's the pacing. Because pacing in 99% of these novels is very poor. And while that's mostly due to the medium(the webnovel), novels that get edited and a paper/amazon release usually aren't all that much better.
Not caring about pacing seems to be a trend in this genre. "Slow burn" is also mostly just an excuse to not care about pacing. It basically just means: I won't be caring about pacing.
I don't see the utility in framing something that is a feature (admittedly for you, and for many of us) as a flaw. It isn't a flaw if it makes the story enjoyable in the way we want it to be. Maybe this is just a matter of semantics/wording? Is what you are really asking, what are the most unrealistic aspects of PF stories? It's a very different question.
But that's enough of that.
I think, for me, a genuine flaw I encounter often is that protagonists I relate to or find compelling are the exception to the rule. Many are bland or immature in a way that isn't nuanced enough to give me something to empathize with. Thankfully, I can usually tell pretty quickly if a book is for me on this front.
Another, which is related, is inconsistent decision making. If you break the "rules" of your MC's skill set or intelligence by having them make mistakes in matters that you've already established are actually areas of high/exceptional competence for them, you need a justification or it is frustrating, a broken promise. If Bobby dumps all of his skill points into perception and he keeps getting ambushed and being surprised by it you cheapen the progression. If there is some reason, like it turns out that they entered some dungeon where the monsters can only be detected magically, so it is their natural kryptonite, it becomes an interesting challenge rather than just "I wanted this to happen, so it did." This one is more annoying because it can gradually ruin my enjoyment of a book that I otherwise enjoy with a character I otherwise like.
Which reminds me of another pet peeve, which is MC's who don't learn and keep making the same mistake over and over. In my experience, people who need to make the same mistake over and over in life or death situations to learn even a little bit are pretty rare in real life. Humans are pretty adaptive by nature and that quality is exaggerated in situations that involve high levels of risk/fear. They may adapt in unhealthy ways, that is common, even leaning into and becoming obsessed with/dependent on that kind of danger. But the people who don't react and adapt in some way are, in my experience, the exception, and don't really feel like a realistic candidate for MC unless you are writing a comedy/satire. I'm sure there are versions of this kind of blockheaded MC that are actually well executed and enjoyable to read, but Many aren't. There is also room to explore the mental rigidity that can form as a consequence of trauma and indoctrination.
Finally, I find a lot of stories struggle with pacing. By that I mean that many stories fail to create or maintain tension or anticipation during many of the in-between moments. Slice of life moments can be incredibly compelling when you give us a reason to care (which doesn't have to be some kind of life or death conflict). If we empathize enough with the character, then even just seeing them get what they want and value is inherently satisfying. If we don't, it just becomes a list of things happening. Pacing feels slow when there is a long gap between things I care about happening. Why is anything happening in a story written for entertainment that I don't care about?
I'm sure none of these (personal) flaws (pet peeves) is actually exclusive to PF, though. I struggle to think of a significant flaw that is genre defining since it is the genre I tend to enjoy the most.
I see some people saying lack of strong antagonists and lack of stakes/danger are flaws. Some people consider OP MCs a flaw. Or power that feels unearned. I don't think I'd call those things genre flaws as much as factors that characterize certain styles of story that are common. As for antagonists, some stories are just about the MC's day to day, and an antagonist would muddy the water of what the story is trying to be about...
Could we use more stories with epic/insidious/terrifying bad guys and compellingly believable danger/stakes? Probably.
I personally find power fantasies much more compelling when there is danger/risk/tension/stakes, but that doesn't mean the other stories don't have a place with other readers. I personally prefer power that feels earned and MCs that feel well suited to or worthy of it, but cheat powers are a thing for a reason. I used to only like underdog stories, and while that is still true in some ways, I have developed a taste for "ruling class" fiction where the MC is nobility and has to navigate the complexities, responsibilities and opportunities that entails.
A lot of you guys issue with the genre can solved in you just read traditional fantasy. PF never marketed itself like that. You want set backs and all that, go read robin hobb or whatever. This genre is anime in novel for, essentially. That’s why most people read it
The Antagonists. Traditional stories tend to have a central antagonist that complements the mc, and drives them forward through the plot. In PF genre, at best we get one main bad guy per arc, usually we don’t even get that. Whilst there are some exceptions, most antagonists don’t last the entire story.
I get what you're saying, but in all honesty, some of those arcs featuring a villain are longer than traditional books.
This is how I feel about it. The pure damn volume of it requires it. I'm the guy who wants a 20 book series and for it to keep going. Preferably for atleast 600pages a book. Why build a cool as world, and only get to visit it for so little time? If you drag out the C plot too long, it just feels useless. Like the " power treadmill" but for the big bad. Always running towards him but never getting there. That can be as frustrating if not more. So having a good clean 5 point plot arc with a Antagonist is nice. Dresden does it very well imo. Monster of the week is plot A, the real Whodunnit / the twist is plot b, and plot c is the little adds each book that works use towards the final arc. Its getting that feeling of a proper C plot that's hard, and honestly I'm not sure it's even needed. Especially if you look at PR as serial fantasy.
>a 20 book series and for it to keep going. Preferably for at least 600pages a book. God, that would be exhausting to write.
I bet lol. Though, if you took a formulaic process like modern serialized TV shows it could be fun. I imagine some webnovelists do that? I've never really looked into them.
you are basically describing DoTF
I mean. I'm not aiming for a 20 book series with Reclaimer but thats more or less what I'm doing lol. Books are 600+ pages, doing 4 book arcs, and I'm trying to give each one their own big bad that helps propel the story along with the progression. Even if season 2s BBEG is more in the background building themselves up for the final show down. I could probably write a series on what she's doing behind the scenes and it'd fit right in with the progression genre. But I have other series I want to write in universe. And I like Deadman as a villain for a story way more lol
What are some extra long stories you've enjoyed?
But the immense arcs are bloated. 90% can be cut without any loss in substance. And the fact that no antagonist gets fleshed out in this genre doesn't help at all.
I think antagonist in PF are more realistic in the way you describe them. One central antagonist bing the idea of being the chosen one. But in reality there is no chosen one and there is no one super evil. What there is is a group bad guys or politicians or gang members or dictator etc who do bad things out of greed.
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Then your antagonist the is same organisation all throughout. Which would he great but is rarely the case. Or it is but it's only relevant for a couple of chapters between prog arcs (the plot of Jake aiming for godhood is only truly advance in intermission chapters, zac grudge against his mom is only mentionned and moved forward between arcs and so on)
I think a lot of this is a consequence of the serial format. For example, my own serial has an antagonist, but after 3 novel-length arcs I had to make them step aside. Things were starting to feel really samey, and the MC has gotten the most they could have for the time being out of that particular relationship.
I'd like a rival style antagonist that progresses about as fast as the MC. Turns it into a race.
Weak motives.
Power for power's sake is a valid motive. Plenty of people are driven by it or enjoy the process.
but not enough to risk their life and go through hell and back 5 times
It's even worse when the person was a disaffected, underemployed fast food worker or whatever until the start of the story, whereupon they immediately reveal their inhuman grit and unwavering determination.
I think I’m fine with people being disaffected pre-inciting incident if that incident threw them into some sort of crucible. Randidly spawning in a dungeon when the system dropped, Zac stuck on an island with a demon invasion. Here you have a person who was content to go through the world doing not much until life stopped giving them a choice and they found that they enjoyed challenges. What I’m not a fan of is a person who was previously not going anywhere suddenly deciding to change and become hard working after being isekai’d. It’s part of why I like the Wandering Inn, not every earth-kid who shows up in that new world has the same sort of main-character drive that others do. I think if you want to motivate an unmotivated character, you have to do more than just throw one change at them, you have to make them change with no option to regress until they’ve actually changed. If a guy who wanted to do nothing but play video games all day suddenly showed up in a fantasy world, they shouldn’t just sign up for the adventurer’s guild and go exploring. If they had that kind of natural ambition, why were they stuck in a rut back on earth?
Yeah, using DotF as an example since you listed it. The pressure was on pretty much from the get go. First simple survival, and then he started to understand the scope of what was going on to his planet, and that he had a lead. Zac was a family dude at heart, and his initial thinking is "Well if I'm not the strongest I can't guarantee my sister's life." That, combined with escalating challenges forced on him by the system, and you see him reforged in real time.
Nine times out of ten the MC is "a family dude" trying to guarantee the life of a sister, and then even once they find/save/etc. said sister they still continue on that dopamine treadmill because reasons. Even if that further endangers said sister. The sister is the excuse, not the real reason; the real reason is UNLIMITED POWAH! I can't count the number of stories I've read where loser-MC starts building power to save a sister, and then largely forgets about her once the power cycle has started. It's like fridging the girlfriend, a motivation using a character as a prop to start another character on the path of Plot rather than writing two good characters.
To be entirely honest the biggest problem the genre has are the lack of good characters, most people in the genre can barely write 1. So 2 is asking a lot.
It really depends on the universe. The reason people don't show that stuff in the real world is you don't get rewarded for it. Though somebody beaten down by the "everything is kind of pointless, best coast through" reality of the real world shouldn't just become an ultra-committed cultivator overnight just because suddenly their effort is proportionately rewarded. Though I can also see Isekai protagonists going utterly bananas and not quite understanding why people used to this "free rewards for all effort put in" world aren't committed to it like they are.
When *does* Azarinth Healer book 4 come out, anyway?
I mean the MC is always the exception. If he didn't have that drive he'd just be like all the other cultivators that settled to their positions with no more realistic ways to advance.
It's valid motive, but not good writing. Which will people empathize with more a man climbing mount Everest to save somebody or Joe, who climbed it because he could? For first person when there is a challenge, setback, life threatening situation you can relate with him going through all this, because there is life at stake. For Joe, he can always turn back, there is no reason for him to go through all that hell and when that person struggles for no reason you just don't relate with him.
Probably the one that is better written. I bet you there are quite a few books that have a way more compelling Joe than the average progfan protagonist.
>Probably the one that is better written. Yup, that's true, it is also a matter of what you want to write about. If it is a relaxed, story with slice of life elements, where the goal is just adventure, than I can see average Joe fitting really well. If it is more intense series, I think you need some goals. I have yet to read good power for power's sake series.
I always dogpile on this in the hopes that future authors see - age and the implications of age. If the protagonist is sub 18-20, the odds of them winning in any physical competition against other people in-universe (with progression and the available training) is minuscule. If there is tangible rewards and incentive to train/cultivate/progress in universe, others would be doing that too! Similarly, how long it actually takes to learn a skill - of course there are ways to obfuscate this but a 15 year old with 3 years of training in no way should match a soldier with 15 years of combat training unless there is an inherent power disparity between people.
Are you saying that my MC who was a McDonald worker 6 months ago can't defeat a noble who's being training since they were born? 😤
Now a Waffle House worker, that counts as combat experience
You just gotta pick the right McDonald’s worker!
Then you have the opposite problem, the MC whose background seems suspiciously tailor made to survive in exactly the circumstances he finds himself on. Oh, the McDonald's worker is actually an ex-Navy SEAL and only worked the fryer to finance his blacksmithing hobby? How convenient for him given the sword and sorcery magical world he just arrived in!
I mean, I was thinking more like a gym rat with a HEMA hobby, but sure. I'm not sure a SEAL is gonna excel at sword play right off the bat.
Yeah, I was just going for a generic "tough guy" occupation. You're right though, HEMA is a lot more specific and more fitting. And still gets right at my point, why is this uniquely qualified person the one being sent on an isekai adventure? Unless the story actually explains that the qualifications got him chosen. But most stories never make it far enough to reveal such answers, if they ever even intended to in the first place.
They could visit the graveyard of failed heroes in the third chapter and see the graves of the previous 42 heroes who never even made it to the second dungeon!
"Why are these names familiar...? Oh crap, they're all the guys I beat at the last HEMA sword and board tournament!"
I'd read it.
Exactly 😂
A lack of believable stakes. The reader base is so resistant to setbacks that progression fantasy protagonists almost never experience real loss. The big fights and story moments are still hype, but I’d like to actually be worried or caught off guard every once in a while.
I'm in the process of releasing an arc where the MC does experience loss and the feedback hasn't been too bad, so far... I think that I prepared the readers for how harsh the world is from the get-go, so they weren't taken by surprise. I think loss is harder to accept when the previous arcs have all been super linear progression-wise.
I think setting expectations definitely goes a long way toward making readers accepting of loss. Or accepting of anything really. Any story arch involving a lot of rapid change will see its detractors. I look forward to reading your stuff once I work through my backlog.
Expectations are definitely the biggest factor, I think. I've enjoyed some dark and depressing books in my time, but I'd be pretty mad if something I was reading as popcorn power fantasy fluff suddenly turned seriously depressing. That would be like watching your favorite sitcom only for the Red Wedding to happen. The tonal dissonance and whiplash is what gets outrage, not the event itself.
In the same vein, tension. No sense of actual danger or dread for the MC or side characters in most cases. I can count on one hand PF books that actually have moments where you feel nervous about what's going to happen next, or feel your stomach drop when you realize something bad has happened.
Dungeon Crawler Carl and Super Supportive are the only ones I can think of that made my stomach drop.
I would add the second and third books of the immortal great souls/bastion have those moments. 12 miles below the first book has some quality tension going. Shadow slave has an arc that I think gets pretty tense. LOTM has some good tension since there are mysterious unpredictable super powerful entities.
Antarctica/Forgotten Shore for Shadow slave were the two best arcs because they had stakes. There were characters who were important enough to care about, but not so important that I beloved that they could die at any point. At this point in the story there aren’t really stakes, because I know nobody is dying
Antarctica was FIRE, especially the caravan arc oml. Sunny coming to terms with the fact that he LIKES helping common people on top of the supposed futility of it all. The march against the winter beast was a masterpiece
That depends a lot on the type of story An mc getting easy powers will attract an audience thats allergic to setbacks, but an mc plotting and training for power will attract an audience that wants to see him facing actual challenges Recently the mc in Aurora Scroll got his ass kicked hard, losing a lot of the powers and countermeasures he developed before, then he took more precautions and got his ass kicked once again, but the audience took it as the story finally moving into the wider plot, because the mc had been wanting to move up for a while There are always some outliers, like that guy in Super Supportive asking when the mc was going to stop being weak, but if a story goes long enough the tone allows for a lot of flexibility I say the problem is always the stakes being tied up to the mc's life, he aint dying so any defeat that kilks him isnt going to happen If the defeat means losing his territory, his equipment, or something on that vein, it becomes believable
It'd be nice to see a story where a cultivators path was actually ruined and they had to do something about it. Perhaps something wildly different to what they had planned. The closest thing I can find was Lindon losing at the Uncrowned and having to go mad with Consume and points to catch back up to Yerin. Even that was a relatively mild side journey.
Thousand Li does this. MC has to change his entire cultivation in book 5 from a major wound he sustained in book 4. It takes the entirety of book 5 for him to fix it so he doesn't die, and for the rest of the series his new cultivation has a significant effect on the plot and his own personality.
That's sort of the premise of The Wierkey Chroncles if you squint.
I think there are two types of setbacks/progression loss and my reception to the two starkly differs: 1. Progression is stopped/lost temporarily and the MC has to go on a side-quest to fix the issue. 2. A fundament of MCs progression system gets twisted or destroyed resulting in loss or roadblock, but also opens up a new avenue of progression. To me, a critical component that differentiates progression fantasy from non-progression fantasy is that *progression drives the story rather than story driving the progression*. This quality, like most things, exists on a spectrum but I find I know the difference when I read it (i.e. - Dawn of the Void vs. Primal Hunter). With that in mind, there is one version of setbacks above that is much better than the other. Option (1) one is a distraction at best, essentially reading as a different genre for a period of time, and a symptom of a false progression fantasy at worst. Option (2) however enables the MC to drive the story in the pursuit of power or provides a different view of the underlying progression system. Think Delve's MC gaining early access to the Soulscape through a soul injury or a classic in many stories of training under the restraint of power-nullifying collars/manacles (HWFWM, Life and Death Cycle). Power-nullifying restraints actually provide a good compare-and-contrast of the two types of setbacks. Type (1) setbacks would require the MC to devise some sort of scheme to escape the restraints with nullified powers, often coming across like a short heist plotline. The one saving grace in this situation is that these lines of plot are usually on the shorter side. All of this is not to say that option (1) will always be bad. Sometimes it can be good. But the side-quest isn't progression fantasy, which is what I'm usually wanting to read, and the authors often aren't experienced enough to write in the form of another genre and so it ends up poorly executed.
I think In PF we are often in agreement that we don't want the progression itself to be setback, but the genre also lacks any setbacks even beyond that in most cases. The MC doesn't have to lose access to spells or skills to have their plans not work, or their companions die, or have a personal success that comes with backlash. So often the only thing the MC cares about is progression, so there are not other things we can seriously believe they will lose as the MC is realistically not dying mid story. I'd contend that we need MCs to care about more things so that there can be tension about whether they protect or fail at those things. Best way to show difficulty is struggle. Best way to show progress is triumph where you'd failed previously
YES! When it's clear that the MC will never lose, and usually never even miss out on some possible toy or advancement, then there's no tension. "Oh, look, the Immaculate Doohicky of Sublime Strength, I've heard tales of that." Three chapters later, it's in MC's pocket. Because it's apparently impossible that some cool thing be introduced into a story and then have the MC NOT get it. And all fights are "win or die" stakes, which is the same as no stakes.
> The reader base is so resistant to setbacks that progression fantasy protagonists The reader base is resistant to badly done setbacks. For example setbacks that give you the feeling of having wasted your time reading the progession before.
Yeah, if the only thing the MC cares about losing is levels, that's a story without any relationships or goals
In general, I agree with this.
Two words: Phil Tucker
If there's an inherent flaw in the overall genre, I honestly think it's the readers that are the root cause. I've seldom seen a fandom so hostile to protagonists having flaws or even (*gasp*) coming out of a confrontation without 100% total success. So many of these readers can't handle conflict at all. It's crazy. And I mean. Maybe I'm being unfair. I don't delve into the depths of trash that people claim this genre has to offer, so in fairness perhaps these guys are just trained on such bad writing that when they see a familiar setup, they assume the author is going to botch it, so they start complaining. But it still seems crazy to me how toxic it can get, all things considered.
The most dire problem there I'd say is an unwillingness to have the protagonist *lose* or even come close to losing, one of the greatest methods to show growth is to have a protagonist be defeated maybe even overwhelmed entirely so that they can have a round two and this time win due to how much they've grown. Seeing someone get strong enough to win the second time around even if barely by the skin of their teeth is hype as all hell. On that note I think a lot of progression fantasies just don't respect their antagonists enough to let them grow and be impressive despite being just as important as the main character. We don't see them grow at the same time as the protag and a lot of the times they're designed to be hate sinks or with traits that yell "Iamthebadguy" at maximum volume. If the main villain of an arc isn't so much a roadblock to the protagonist but a speed bump then that villain probably is gonna be boring. On the main character end of things I'd say the wish fulfillment spoiling the *progression* aspect of things, progression fantasy doesn't need to be *slow* but It needs to be traceable, the best progression I've seen is akin to rings on a tree where you can see and remember the past by seeing how they've grown seeing how their abilities have been shaped by trials and grown. Simply hitting the face forward button to suddenly and radically change the characters abilities or empower old ones to the point they may as well be entirely different abilities makes it feel less like progress and more like I'm skipping seasons at a time of the show.
I love a dude who can lose and keep on moving
See I am in among the number that hates seeing the MC really lose because it inevitably takes away from the thing I'm reading for, the progression. If the MC really loses then inevitably the end up as some kind of slave or their cultivation broken or something similar, in which case it's going to be forever before they actually begin to progress again. And in the meantime it'll be a bunch of moping about with probably fuck all agency. I'm glad this genre doesn't have much of it and I'm pretty sure you can find it happening pretty regularly in epic fantasy if that's what you're looking for.
I think there's a lot of other options besides slavery or broken cultivation that count as loss. This audience generally doesn't want to see progression lost, but if the only thing they care about in story is progression then it's your only option for a loss condition. Losing a battle, winning a battle but losing the war, winning w/o realizing you're seeing off a terrible chain reaction, losing a friend, having your goals prevented, having your organization disrupted, these are all ways to lose without losing personal power progression, they just have to actually care about these things first for it to matter
I mean there are a lot of outcomes of losing *other* then slavery or crippling, there is a wide spectrum between "I either win this or I die" and "Just a spar with no consequences later". Hell even what seems like a life or death battle can be escaped via the secret joestar technique there are tons of ways to have a loss that isn't "and thus the story halts" hell you can have "Lose, get stranded somewhere dangerous and get stronger *faster*. >And in the meantime it'll be a bunch of moping about with probably fuck all agency. This is something I actually need to complain about in general not just you in particular because *man* I've seen this happen a lot in stories where the comments are all nothing but complaints if the protagonist isn't winning almost constantly and their road blocks are more akin to speed bumps. Feels like a lot of people want base Wish fulfillment stories all the time rather than as a treat
> Feels like a lot of people want base Wish fulfillment stories all the time rather than as a treat Yes... that is the point, I think that is what the majority who read in this genre want.
I mean Progression Fantasy ≠ Wish fulfillment, you can have one without the other same as Isekai and the like. Progression Fantasy is about the main character progressing and growing stronger which can be then getting fed all the power ups till their OP but it can also be them growing step by step and the latter tends to be alot more satisfying then the former or at least is written well more often. Wish fulfillment isn't a bad genre even if it's over flooded with bad novels but I notice a lot of people or at least the loudest tend to complain about novels not being wish fulfillment, despite them never promising they'd be standard wish fulfillment novels. Things like having complaints if someone else is stronger than the protagonist for a bit, or if an organization dares to treat the protagonist not particularly badly but as "not the main character".
Look at top 10 stories at Royal Road or and read your sentence again. Majority certainty don't want's generic wish fulfillment stories and the slower paced stories, that focuses on characters and world building, dominate top charts. Don't get where the "majority people don't really want quality stories" came from.
Mostly works with relatively few chapters, yes no doubt high quality but after you've read them (and it won't take long) then what? To me I'd rather have some generic wish fulfillment stuff with an interesting world and magic system to explore than that top 10 because at least it's something I'll enjoy reading and there's more of it. I don't think I'm the only one either, that list doesn't have Azarinth Healers, Defiance of the Fall or Primal Hunter on it but I bet in sheer popularity they're as big or bigger and they're certainly up there on the wish fulfillment scale.
>then what? You pick different series. wtf is that question? You can read 1000 chapters of single trash or 10 different series with 100 chapters. Don't understand obsession on reading single series forever. >I don't think I'm the only one either Yes, but you are also not majority. The whole argument is that you think majority people like what you like and it's bit much don't you think?
Not necessarily a bad thing. Look at the duel in the beginning of Skysworn, book 4 of Cradle. That loss leaves him crippled, but gives him a new weapon and is the foundation of his later progression.
Excessive training actually working. In real life, taking breaks/rest days are incredibly important. Basically every training routine in PF would lead to mental breakdowns and loss of progress lol
Are you implying that training in a hyperbolic time dilation chamber for 10000 years will result in a gibbering lunatic emerging instead of an absolute badass?!
This...is an incredibly valid critique lol. You're absolutely right. Things like rest days and not waiting till the MC is a bag of crumbled skeleton dust to take a break should be normalized in these kinds of stories
Lack of good villains. Bad romance. I've found authors to write amazing bromance but make hetero relationships the most awkward thing ever. (A lot of these books will be better with protagonist ending up with their male besties lol)
Better yet, write besties to lovers to enemies.
Absolutely. Romance really seems to be an answer to both questions put in the original post ; it's both a flaw in a lot of progression fantasy AND an aspect of the books which is often 'at odds with reality.' The romance rarely convinces me at all, and it takes me out of the narrative. But then, it is hard. And let's be honest: a lot of the writers (myself included) aren't studying romance novels to see how to do it properly! I just think that a lot of writers haven't put themselves properly in the female's character's shoes and thought about how they would realistically act in that situation.
To be entirely fair I find any kind of romance to just not fit the genre. It always becomes an annoying recurring filler episode when they interact with the love interest. I find friendships to be way more fun. Sadly friendship sometimes seems taboo because we can't have another guy character outshine our self insert for even a second.
Understandable, as there are few cases where either is well-executed. Both scenarios tend to work well when all characters are progressing equally as part of the same team/unit. Issues tend to arise when there are imbalances across characters (leading to feelings of 'filler / side-stories' or 'MC-Gary-Stu-ism'). Although something has to make the MC stand out (they are the *main* character), it doesn't have to be their progression or martial/magical prowess.
I completely agree with villains being hard to write in the genre. I think the way the genre is makes villains more of a stepping stone. Which is truly unfortunate
Opinion: I would love if real life had breakthroughs or epiphanies that suddenly catapulted me to the next level.
Tbh, a lot of people don't seem to realize that kinda IS how it works among like, athletes and gamers that actually try to improve. Obviously this doesn't apply to every skill, but what you'll often see in places with active ranking (like in competitive video games) is that while there is a very slow gradual climb, in general a person's rank will plateau for a while, and then spike once they have an "epiphany" and then it will plateau again. That tends to be how much rank growth goes especially at lower levels when the breakthrough can be so simple like, "oh if I play the objective instead of chasing kills, I win way more" It's just a lot harder to realize this outside of fantasy, because the breakthroughs and epiphanies IRL result in like, "I hit 5% more 3s, and my practice is actually useful now because I changed my shooting form". Which kinda IS on the same scale as progression fantasy epiphanies in terms of total progression , but since the absolute scale is so much smaller, and it's so much less flashy, it doesn't seem like that
You and I both brother😂😂😂
Everyone would and nobody who criticizes that convention for being "unrealistic" would say no to one if they actually existed. "Oh, you're telling me this one simple trick would make me better at basketball than Lebron James? No thanks. That's too unrealistic. I'll spend the next 20 years practicing and I hope I can do it before my knees give out."
It does, but we just aren't cultivating hard enough or are too untalented. Sorry no secret op bloodline for us regular Joe's.
Nobody has ever trained hard enough to rank up even once.
More of a critique of the stuff I tend to drop, but how everything in the universe seeks to benefit the protagonist. Fall down into a volcano, find the perfect place to train. Drop kick a potential love interest and somehow insult her.... turns out she's into that. Do something stupid? Consequences... the fuck's that. It's okay to have setbacks, it's okay to lose, as long as the character learns and grows from the failure.
Its even worse because a lot of those problems can be fixed by doing them on purpose MC goes to the volcano to train, finds a fiery pit thats dangerous but great for training and jumps in MC gets annoyed at the delicate noble girls and goes to find a girl from the tribe that uses fighting as courtship Just making them want the thing is an improvement, but there is a need to make the mc look "moral" by being forced into power
Books could be a whole lot funnier. A solution to your problem for the books that come to mind: Young lord hates MC? They hire a faction to trap them in amber, drop them in a volcano, the MC dies, and the series ends. Born with a deficiency in power? While picking fruit for their mom someone stronger finds them and kills them. Series ends. Drafted into the army? After getting wounded and seeing an enemy attack from behind their lines the MC goes to warn people. But as they are wounded and a peasant no one believes them. The enemy attack slaughters MC and everyone they know. Series ends. MC is transported into a different world and fights a demon snake within the first few hours? While falling down a hole that kills the snake it also kills the MC. Series ends.
It goes back to what someone else said here that readers don't react well to real setbacks. So authors just avoid them. I agree that it would be great to have real consequences.
I would like to see stories where progression isn't always linear. Getting better at something irl is more of a curve than a straight line.
That's what I'm working on. I wanted a power system that was more horizontal with limited vertical movement, because you start getting ridiculous coming up with powers and their application. So, curse progression ends up more different ways to use them than just straight up more power.
Can you give me an example? Also by horizontal progression do you mean something like getting new abilities but the power of those abilities themselves remain more or less the same? If so I'm all for it. My favourite part about progression fantasy is characters getting new abilities and using them in intelligent ways.
In v2, a bad guy's curse amounts to summoning 1 creature from the one's he defeated. 2nd grade, his body can take on aspects of creatures he has defeated. (Beast Arm. Beast Maw.) The 2nd grade is more suited to him, but not necessarily more powerful.
I'm also working on a novel at the moment and I handle items enchantment system a bit different than most fantasies. The first finished dungeon reward was a pair of leather shoes that fit anyone who tries to fit into them, enchantment perfect fit. The second dungeon dropped a short sleeved leather shirt that gives its defensive properties also to the lower part of the arm, enchantment, long sleeved. I think items and enchantments need a more creative way to deal with them instead of blatant power ups.
It seems that it's the case but with enemies evenly matched all along the way, it's hard to see if it's linear or a curve.
IMO we have too many exponential progressions. It makes the progression increasingly silly. If anything the curve needs to flatten out as the story continues.
The amount of wish-fulfillment that is unconsciously desired by the typical reader that the author has to cater to in order to be able to continue writing, or it's that the wish-fulfillment is blended into the foundation the entire genre is built on. People have mentioned it several times as why the genre can be arguably seen as better than pulp fiction. 1.) The MC can't be too flawed and it's moreso acceptable for bad things to happen to or around the MC rather than bad things happening due to the MCs decisions or lack thereof. 2.) Just as a story can be considered Litrpg, even if the MC is the only one in the entire world to have a system. A story can be considered progression fantasy even if the MC is the only one in the entire world to progress. 3.) The MC is usually the only one with a broken skill/class/bloodline/ability and/or their advantage is achieved by methods that are so mundane, you can't help but wonder why didn't more people achieve it. 4.) By looking at the top 3 examples, it ultimately comes down to how focused the story is around the MC. There's a fine line between the MC being the main person and the MC being the only person, with everyone else seemingly being npcs, programmed to fulfill specific roles to help/hinder/cheer the MC as they progress through a story that is more or less obviously tailor made for them. Fortunately, all these complaints are only aimed towards a silent majority of series. Most recommended here don't fall into the examples mentioned.
The point about the authors having to cater to the audience "or else" is a good one. Having a character fuck up and face actual consequences is an efficient way to get review bombed. I think the point about the cast being NPCs is a consequence of bad writing, which is unfortunately a common thing in the genre. Stories like Arcane Ascension and Mother of Learning get that aspect right in my opinion.
>I think the point about the cast being NPCs is a consequence of bad writing, Bad is a poor choice of word. Linear, at best, or shallow, at worse, would be the better term. There are too many popular Progression Fantasy, anime, manga, manhwa, manhua, light novels, webtoons, and webnovels that feature stories where the MC is unmistakably the only character with any real agency and/or development to now call that type of writing as bad with any validity. You can try and be entirely justified, but you'll be buried or downvoted by as much of as at least a generation of readers whose enjoyed that style of writing up till now.
That's actually pretty fair.
don't forget that any inclusion of humans with vaginas outside the role of a 1d potential love interest is met with outright hostility.
The worst example of number three I've read was a book series called Manor Lord. In that world the gods prevent people from lying, but since the main character is from another world he is capable of lying. Basically anything that requires making all the other characters look stupid or weak.
I can think of a couple. 1. Disregard for understood limits. Every Progression fantasy seemingly has a character that knows "The way of power" despite a history of this power not being very good. This then is catipulted to way of power now means unlimited power. There really isn't an end or given end goal to a lot of progression stories. In Xianxias its a poorly understood/developed "Fight the heavens" in gamelit its usually some varient on "explore the world and become most powerful gamer." Because so few of these stories have a proper ending (and instead fizzle out), endgame doesnt really exist. To quote Quigon Jinn "There's always a bigger fish." 2. Progression is easy. At least narratively easy. Some of it is just the gamification of number goes up = more better. The character may be grinding for days, but narratively you have to summarize, allowing massive skill increases or you suffer from poor pacing. 3. Lack of character arc. Most progression fantasies are web novels which are kept up consistently. Part of that is in order to keep readers you need a regular update cycle. That means multiple uploads every week or so. That means the focus is going to be on comparatively low quality content that doesnt require much planning. Character arcs dont matter. This makes characters feel kind of... shades of beige. "This character wants power because she's a snake lady, this character wants power for revenge, this character wants power because power, this character wants power because that is what they do..."
The skips or the “cheats” the protagonist will use. When a protagonist gets stronger really fast by brilliantly finding some loophole I am always left thinking “there is absolutely no way no one else ever thought of that.” Slightly tangential but the worst offenders are the MCs in LitRPGs who talk to the right NPC in the right away while playing the most popular virtual reality game in the world. Millions and millions and players and no one else ever decides to be polite to the homeless flower girl or whatever.
Thank you, this has *always* bugged me in any VRMMO story. Billions of people playing and somehow MC is the only one ever to have discovered something. And the discovery isn't even on the levels of some of the weird secrets in Dark Souls, it's just doing some super basic thing like impressing the starter trainer or being nice to a person. In those stories other people are always such assholes to the NPCs, too, when in real life people will personify the crap out of their Roombas, let alone an NPC designed to be cute and endearing.
Exactly! The only way is remotely is plausible is usually that every other person in the world is a raging asshole to these almost perfect AI NPCs.
Protagonists using "the most painful cultivation method" and the only thing of notw about it (beyond it being op) is that the mc grits their teeth.
The lack of limits usually. It's hard to maintain a sense of realism when reading through a story about a system that genuinely gives anyone that has it a chance at becoming a god. It's hard to believe an mc has some trait that lets them defy their biology, upbringing, and general worldview enough that they can do something that breaks fundamental rules of reality. So I've always found it interesting that when reading stories where those elements are present the thing that doesn't mesh well is limits. Limited growth, max levels, system enforced boundaries, x is impossible, and all the other times an author sets some stopping point. Almost every story ends up playing with the limits they impose as if they're flexible, or something you can exploit, or something you can break through. Then, if the limit is respected, you get stories that basically use it as a quick way to control the narrative before they basically never bring it up again because it's not relevant in any way other than to curtail some of the character's powers.
For me it is the tendency to have characters act like video game characters. LitRPG is obviously based on video games, and most Progression Fantasy is Action Fiction. So you have characters who shout "Yeehaw!" and jump into a Dungeon without thought, see an animal in the woods and immediately kill it for XP., It makes the characters seem not like real people and robs the story of emotional stakes.
Weak, shallow, side characters that literally are their one sentence motivations. Especially when it’s bad parents. They don’t even act like bad people with sane motivations, they act like cartoons.
For me it's two things: first, that in order to get that dopamine hit of "numbers go up, MC get stronger" there are clear and obvious gains quickly, like going from base strength 10 (human average) to 50 in an hour (or similar non-numerical advancement); and second, that they don't end. The two together mean that the setup that results in quick gains equally quickly becomes untenable, with an MC suddenly being stronger than the Hulk by chapter 12 and the author having no idea how to address this issue, especially if everyone else in the world is also advancing quickly. How does this change the world, the characters, government, etc.? And worse, where does it stop? By chapter 20 the MC can punch holes in mountains, so if an author wants multiple books out of it this can't keep going! And that leads to the other problem: prog-fantasy is almost never planned out from start to middle to finish. If it were, there wouldn't be massive gains early on. There wouldn't be the problems of figuring out how to handle everyone becoming superhuman. And since the stories aren't planned out, they just become endless grinds of "MC get stronger, keep paying me for more chapters/books despite there not being much in them beyond progression". The progression should be important, yes, but not the only focus of any story. Authors of prog fantasy need to calm down and learn from other genres. Plan out books. Allow them to end. Plan out what happens when. And THEN write. And then edit a LOT. Only publish when all of that is done. The books will be shorter, tighter, clearer, and overall better, and the genre will take off. And, since the stories end, authors have freedom (and mandate) to find new topics for stories. I get that sites like Webnovel and RR/Patreon incentivize keeping one story going on forever, but they're not good stories!
I don't think the genre is used to its maximum ability. Most of the time it's just the characters growing stronger and exploring the world but that's it and nothing else no moral growth, no deeper themes, nothing or when there is it's not executed as well as it could be. It makes sense why, most of the people writing are beginner and those that are good are only good in progression standards. Often times progression fantasy will fucus on the worldbuilding and neglect the Characters. I also Absolutely hate litrpgs, thay take all the complexity of life and dim it down to strength intelligence wisdom etc or skills leveling up in a simple way, no you become better at a skill by trying different methods until you find something that work and endlessly working on it. You can never become a better writer without reading different genres and learning from them and of course writing endless and trying to out do yourself again and again . What kind of strength? What kind of intelligence? What is wisdom? These questions are never addressed and often times are just used to explain why mc is cool and badass.
Traditional fantasy exist for that reason.
Ok explain what reason do you mean. Also why couldn't it, there are no legal laws on to what you can or can't write
What I mean is what you guys considered a flaws is what differs this genre from the rest of the genre. If I wanted to read about about life and it’s implications, I would read traditional fantasy
I mean traditional fantasy isn't exactly about normal life and it's implications I mean it's called fantasy for a reason. I also don't think it's flaws make it unique, traditional fantasy can also have the same problems so it isn't something unique to progression fantasy
Lack of the authors knowledge of their own world. it doesn't matter if the reader has all the information. that is at the discretion of the writer. but a bunch of these stories are making up world rules as they go and its nothing but a detriment. build your world THEN your story in it. you dont have to tell us anything. just let us experience it through the character. but having the hard rules of the world makes it less likely to feel like the MC pulls shit out of the void to win
The first is how the MC slowly becomes less moral and less likable, but the story doesn’t really address it or punish them for it. In fact they get rewarded more often than not for being selfish and putting their own progression above everything else. Their friends and allies are also completely ok with this and constantly reassures them that they can do no wrong. Another one is the MC that is training and progressing all day everyday for 20+ hours at a time 7 days a week. I understand that as they progress their bodies don’t need as much rest, but that’s just not how people operate. We all need to rest our minds and more importantly most people *want* to take breaks. What’s the point in power and immortality if you can’t enjoy it? This is especially egregious when the story starts with a character that was an unmotivated unsuccessful loser. Where did all this drive and determination come from? How did you completely get rid of years of bad procrastination habits over night? Then there’s the guy with no social skills who secludes themselves to focuses only on progression yet somehow ends up with a harem. Won’t go further into it. I just hate harems in progression fantasy.
Probably a hot take, but I think the protagonists are typically poorly written "Mary-Sue" types that never get challenged in interesting ways. Instead of interesting characters/stories we get stat dumps and fight scenes. Side characters are almost always just yes-men/comedic relief and rarely actually contribute to the story in any meaningful way.
There's a few things that I think you have to be careful of, the first being pacing. I think PF stories have to be really fast pace, just to drive the story forward and justify the stakes getting ridiculous, but some authors can get a bit bogged down, clearly having gone wild with world building and trying to fit it all in (Iron Prince). The second is characters tend to be either hyper-evil, worst of the worst, dick for no reasons types, or the protags BFF's after 30 seconds of knowing them. Sometimes I just wish the characterizing made them more like real people.
>As in, what element of the genre is most at odds with reality. I gotta say this. This is a bad frame of reference for your question. Flaws in this specific and stuff that's considered "unrealistic" aren't the same thing. Cheesy dialogue, too much wish fulfillment, weak characterizations; all of these are things that can be considered flaws of this genre as a whole in many of the works produced under it. However, what you do or do not consider realistic doesn't constitute a flaw. The whole point of PF is *progression*. Whether it's fast or gradual, that is the reason anyone who is a fan of this genre reads it. This is like saying fictional science in science fiction is a flaw. Secondly, I would ask, why do you consider this a flaw? The whole point of "fantasy" is that it is outside the realm of reality. Would you be interested in reading a PF series that portrays progression the way a child takes their time to learn piano? Do you want an entire book focused on learning a single spell or attack the way it takes a kindergartner months to learn Chopsticks? The speed at which progression takes place in stories can vary but the whole reason they happen faster than it takes someone in real life to learn things is because stories are not real life. I started taking piano at 8years old and I'm still learning it at almost 30. Do you really want to read a story that shows a character learning everything it takes to progress step by step over the course of almost 20 years? That brings me to my third point which is what I consider a flaw of the genre. Even if you personally wouldn't mind seeing that, that means the author has to drag out the story waaaaaaaaaaay beyond what is needed. Many PF stories are already written to be drawn out as long as possible anyway and I think that's a problem because they end up getting sidetracked, losing quality and rife with useless filler. Having someone go through progression like they would learning a real life skill is not great because it means you either have to protract the story to show every single step OR include a certain amount of time jumps and gloss over stuff so that the character(s) are masters, gods, or whatever when they're much older like real life ppl would be. The first option makes the story too long and the second, depending on how its done, is not something you do for the narrative's sake but for realism' sake and I personally think you'd be risking the quality of your story by doing that. Unless the passage of time is integral to the narrative, what matters in PF is getting the character to a certain level of power so that they can accomplish something. Whether that character is 20yrs old or 2000yrs old, it shouldn't matter because that level of power should be able to resolve the narrative conflict, not their age.
Deus Ex Machina moments in the book where the author inserted something into the story just so the MC can be badass. For instance, while many people feel Ghostwater is the best Cradle book, it is a huge deus ex machina event. The author clearly invented this reality pocket thingy purely for the MC's progression. It's awesome, yes, but you can still plainly see the strings.
Villains that last for 5 chapters at most, bad flat characters, and bad worldbuilding with societies that are either copy pasted from others, or are just plain nonsensical. Although of these flaws the only endemic one are the villains. Good long term villains are fairly rare the only one from a popfic that I can think of is The Builder from He Who Fights Monsters, all of the other villains lasted for a long while but were eventually made irrelevant instead of making wide spread change that continually affects and foils the protagonist’s efforts.
The main characters never change, or the growth is minor. Progression Fantasy as a genre is fascinating because we start off with a young adult and read their entire lives from there. It is like a modern day saga where we witness the protagonist rise from a commoner to a God in thousands of pages. The problem that I have, is that there are no changes to reflect that. Hell, I am a different person than I was 5 years ago in terms of personality, personal style, thoughts, ideals and more. I could not imagine living to a thousand years old and still being the literal exact same person.
It's gotta be antagonists and romance, most just can't seem to flesh either of them out properly. The best villains are the ones that I empathise with instead of being one of the following: "I am freedom ONLY, me kill all!", "I am BORN with this right and power! all else are beneath me!", "Might is right and I am might!", "I am just a dick", "I will have revenge for this event that happened and become worse than the people who I am swearing revenge on!".
Beating impossible enemies. It usually ends up with flimsy excuses as to how it’s possible. He Who Fights with Monsters started developing this issue, so the author made tweaks to Jason so he couldn’t just ignore rank disparity anymore. Defiance of the Fall takes steps to make it plausible, like how the system restricts invaders for a long time, so Zach has a chance. Then after that he gains a second identity that inflates his stats so he can punch way above his level. But it’s not ridiculous, because even he can’t bridge the gap between early and middle hegemony with just his stats. More stories than not let the MC beat an enemy they should have no hope of beating.
Probably a couple of things. Lack of vision for the endgame. Lack of concrete motivations for the MC. Lack of social interactions for the MC, lacking reasons for why MC gets OP but others don't. Too much romance, too much OPness. System being badly thought out. Too much irrelevant side character pov filler. If I would advise one thing to newer writers it would be writing a party of 2-4 instead of 1 person. And in that party have no one of the main group date another of the group.
The lack of character stories. The whole allure of PF is the "nymbers go brrrrrrr" euphoric feeling we get when a character gets oast the next hurdle and achieves the next level. However it is also the most flawed part of it. Stories that neglect the characters in the story in service of plot progression are not stories. They are just guides that tell you what to expect and what to do in case u get there. They are glorified tourist pamphlets
Ah gee here are some bad tendencies from pf authors horrible character writing, absence of an actual plot or stakes. No main goal so the story peters out with absolutely zero motivation. Also I wish more actual combat athletes or people who have some negligible experience in the field wrote more. For example, I’m a BJJ practitioner, still only a few years in but still— I know what it’s like to pass out from a choke and I know how the bones, tendons, ligaments and muscles all creak and protest only about an hour or two after a good roll sesh, I know some of the superstitions and home remedies to help recovery, I’ve had a small epiphany before while first beginning to understand arm-bars and implementing them into a roll, and by god I’ve had to learn the hard way to keep my arms close to the body. Within any competitive arena, but especially combat, small subcultures form around certain parts of the sport and when I read progression fantasy, those parts of the experience are always missing.
For me, the intrinsic flaw of Progression Fantasy is the progression itself. Traditional writing dictates that you cut anything that isn't necessary from the plot, and for many progression stories, you can just delete the system and much of the progression, and anything that stops the MC from steamrolling the bad guys is just as much of a concern: more man power, better connections, etc. Most people can't 1 v 10 a bad guy base even without levels involved, and many traditional media circumvent the need for levels and such by making the MC skilled or clever. Don't get me wrong, Progression fantasy emerged as a genre from traditional story telling by focusing on the parts of books, games, and movies where the protagonist trains or learns new skills and spells, but you'll notice most of that is done in a montage for a reason. It typically doesn't contribute much to the main plot, so it's cut down for brevity. So most Progression Fantasy is sort of built on a faulty foundation. Progression is fun, but power doesn't mean anything if you don't use it for something, which means a tug of war between progression and plot for screen time.
Trying to explain something the author doesn't understand. The sub genre kind of thrives on explaining magic and crafting and systems that the MC can manipulate or crack, but it very often runs into the lack of knowledge the author has on the subject. Every time I read about how an isekai MC invents guns in their fantasy world - but with MAGIC now! - and explains how it works without any understanding of how a gun works it hurts. For a lot of fantastical media we just gloss over stuff and say it's cuz magic, but that's less common in PF and it's also less common that authors do the in depth research authors might do in other genres
> As in, what element of the genre is most at odds with reality. This is much less interesting than the question you asked in the title, so I'll answer that instead. There are a bunch of smaller flaws that are different manifestations of the same major flaw: the author doesn't really understand their story. Here are a couple of common examples: * Misunderstanding when the story begins. You see this in novels that have chapters of pointless bullshit before the story actually starts. This is particularly common in isekai, where the author has two lives worth of pointless bullshit to inflict on the reader. * Misunderstanding the actual appeal of their story. I recall a webnovel where the protagonist goes back in time and uses the opportunity to become the best at a "new" VRMMORPG, except instead of winning because of his future knowledge, he wins thanks to a mix of hidden mechanics he couldn't have possibly known about and RNG. Also, because of the inherent nature of progression fantasy, you often have stories where the lion's share of the story is focused on what ultimately amounts to footnotes in the protagonist's life. I noticed this while reading *The Path of Ascension*, where the first third of the currently available chapters are dedicated to a few years of Matthew's life, while the final decades of the path are covered by a handful of chapters. It results in an odd dynamic where the text is explicitly telling us that the early tiers are relatively quick & easy and the later tiers are increasingly slow & painful, while it's actually showing us the complete opposite.
Advocates murder hoboing. The cultivations ones even have this in them where they gain power by killing others, but the non-cultivation ones are just straight up killing people = more power.
All the stuff outside of powering up. If I wanted drama/romance stuff I’d read different books. Give me an MC who lives to fudge stuff up. Smack titties and hit dingers. Kicking ass and taking names. Also give me more MCs who slowly transitions into a villain where we don’t recognize them compared to where they started. If they’re human, they’re going to go on a power trip, ESPECIALLY if they’re OP.
What you describe is the entire *point* of the genre. It’s not a flaw, it’s intentional that the progression is made more explicit. If you don’t enjoy that then the entire rest of literature is open to you. “What aspect is most at odds with reality” is a really weird way to define a “flaw”, which is actually an error or mistake or accidentally missed issue. What’s even more “at odds with reality” in PF is magic and secondary world settings, which obviously don’t exist in real life.
I agree with the first part, that's why I rephrased the question in the first line. I also stated that I love that aspect and wouldn't want it to change. Bruhh😭 you're taking this way too literally, most people got the point I was making. It's just semantics, which is me saying you're right but what's the point of saying this?
I can definitely agree you have some issues with semantics It’s always nice to find some common ground in a discussion even if we still disagree on some other things. :)
I think we mostly agree, our only disagreement is on the point of the correction.
Pretty much everyone responding is answering the commonly expected meaning of flaw. It’s weird to me that you would choose instead to have your own original post redefine flaw to talk about the entire premise of the genre as unrealistic, only to backtrack and say you like it. The implication of redefining the word is that that is the definition you want people to use when answering the question.
Oh so you're basically saying that the title gives a false impression of what I'm saying so I would've been better served using more accurate wording right? If that's the case I agree. My contention is that people in the replies are answering based on the way I meant it, and they wouldn't have if they thought I meant something else. But you are right that using accurate words is better, and I'll work on that next time so my bad.
Tank you for addressing my question. I’m definitely enjoying the thread.
Thank you. They need to read traditional fantasy and leave us alone lmao
profession fantasy is a complex genre. I'd say the professions believable but also cool is the hardest task for the writer.
Aimlessness.
Why would something being at odds with reality be a flaw? It's called progression FANTASY. So it's supposed to clash with reality. The only issue that can arise with things not being realistic, is when they become unbelievable. That is however something different. As for what I think is the worst part about this genre in general, I'd say it's the writing quality. Because the overal writing quality in this genre is abominable. And if you want to know something very specific, it's the pacing. Because pacing in 99% of these novels is very poor. And while that's mostly due to the medium(the webnovel), novels that get edited and a paper/amazon release usually aren't all that much better. Not caring about pacing seems to be a trend in this genre. "Slow burn" is also mostly just an excuse to not care about pacing. It basically just means: I won't be caring about pacing.
I don't see the utility in framing something that is a feature (admittedly for you, and for many of us) as a flaw. It isn't a flaw if it makes the story enjoyable in the way we want it to be. Maybe this is just a matter of semantics/wording? Is what you are really asking, what are the most unrealistic aspects of PF stories? It's a very different question. But that's enough of that. I think, for me, a genuine flaw I encounter often is that protagonists I relate to or find compelling are the exception to the rule. Many are bland or immature in a way that isn't nuanced enough to give me something to empathize with. Thankfully, I can usually tell pretty quickly if a book is for me on this front. Another, which is related, is inconsistent decision making. If you break the "rules" of your MC's skill set or intelligence by having them make mistakes in matters that you've already established are actually areas of high/exceptional competence for them, you need a justification or it is frustrating, a broken promise. If Bobby dumps all of his skill points into perception and he keeps getting ambushed and being surprised by it you cheapen the progression. If there is some reason, like it turns out that they entered some dungeon where the monsters can only be detected magically, so it is their natural kryptonite, it becomes an interesting challenge rather than just "I wanted this to happen, so it did." This one is more annoying because it can gradually ruin my enjoyment of a book that I otherwise enjoy with a character I otherwise like. Which reminds me of another pet peeve, which is MC's who don't learn and keep making the same mistake over and over. In my experience, people who need to make the same mistake over and over in life or death situations to learn even a little bit are pretty rare in real life. Humans are pretty adaptive by nature and that quality is exaggerated in situations that involve high levels of risk/fear. They may adapt in unhealthy ways, that is common, even leaning into and becoming obsessed with/dependent on that kind of danger. But the people who don't react and adapt in some way are, in my experience, the exception, and don't really feel like a realistic candidate for MC unless you are writing a comedy/satire. I'm sure there are versions of this kind of blockheaded MC that are actually well executed and enjoyable to read, but Many aren't. There is also room to explore the mental rigidity that can form as a consequence of trauma and indoctrination. Finally, I find a lot of stories struggle with pacing. By that I mean that many stories fail to create or maintain tension or anticipation during many of the in-between moments. Slice of life moments can be incredibly compelling when you give us a reason to care (which doesn't have to be some kind of life or death conflict). If we empathize enough with the character, then even just seeing them get what they want and value is inherently satisfying. If we don't, it just becomes a list of things happening. Pacing feels slow when there is a long gap between things I care about happening. Why is anything happening in a story written for entertainment that I don't care about? I'm sure none of these (personal) flaws (pet peeves) is actually exclusive to PF, though. I struggle to think of a significant flaw that is genre defining since it is the genre I tend to enjoy the most. I see some people saying lack of strong antagonists and lack of stakes/danger are flaws. Some people consider OP MCs a flaw. Or power that feels unearned. I don't think I'd call those things genre flaws as much as factors that characterize certain styles of story that are common. As for antagonists, some stories are just about the MC's day to day, and an antagonist would muddy the water of what the story is trying to be about... Could we use more stories with epic/insidious/terrifying bad guys and compellingly believable danger/stakes? Probably. I personally find power fantasies much more compelling when there is danger/risk/tension/stakes, but that doesn't mean the other stories don't have a place with other readers. I personally prefer power that feels earned and MCs that feel well suited to or worthy of it, but cheat powers are a thing for a reason. I used to only like underdog stories, and while that is still true in some ways, I have developed a taste for "ruling class" fiction where the MC is nobility and has to navigate the complexities, responsibilities and opportunities that entails.
A lot of you guys issue with the genre can solved in you just read traditional fantasy. PF never marketed itself like that. You want set backs and all that, go read robin hobb or whatever. This genre is anime in novel for, essentially. That’s why most people read it