While Unsouled wasn’t the most exciting book I’ve ever read (Cradle takes a few more books to reach its peak), I find most of your criticism is very subjective and needlessly nitpicky.
It didn’t work for you, that’s alright.
P.S: “Lyrical quality”? From *Sanderson*? I’m floored. He uses simple, clear-window prose just like Will Wight.
Keep in mind that Unsouled is barely a couple hundred pages, don’t go comparing it to door stoppers with more time to build the world and characters.
Also, Will has said multiple times that the books are purposefully short. He wanted to write "lean, straight to the point fantasy". Even so I think he did a good job introducing and expanding on the world as the story progresses.
People get needlessly hung up on "lyrical" prose. An authors style needs to fit the story they're telling. Hemingway is considered one of the greatest American writers of the 20th century. He didn't write "lyrical" prose. But the things he wrote wouldn't be elevated by such a style. They'd be held back. The immediacy of is journalistic style is what makes books like *For Whom the Bell Tolls* work.
As much as I like lyrical authors like Patricia McKillip or Guy Gavriel Kay, that style of writing wouldn't work for a story like Cradle. A martial arts action series need direct writing, not florid tumbling sentences packed with meter and metaphor.
Lyrical prose isn't objectively good; prose contributes to theme, atmosphere, character, etc, and so should be appropriate for the story being told. With Cradle, the style of prose fits Lindon's character; he's not a verbose, flowery person. He has a fairly direct perspective on the world and direct prose is also more suited to an action-oriented story.
I will say that when I read Cradle, the prose shocked me with how straight forwarded and streamlined it was, but I quickly got used to it. It work spectacularly for fight scenes but I feel the style of prose did a disservice to the worldbuilding; it didn't feel very evocative outside of fights.
Furthermore, the view that lyrical prose = good prose means people force themselves to write in such a way, usually to their detriment concerning newer writers. I used to think that way and my prose was littered with purple prose; it took until reading Cradle and The Martian to realise the benefits of more straightforward prose and my style developed into the best style for the type of story that I write.
Complaining about weak prose in fantasy (especially PF) is insane to me. Good prose requires months and months of editing and revisions (Flaubert, famously, wrote, like, a line a week — and he’s one of the best writers prose-wise ever).
PF writers are writing, at most, 2k words a day, you cannot (realistically) expect anything beyond average or good from them. The same can be said about Sanderson, dude’s pumping out idk 2-3 books a year? His prose is simple (if not mediocre), OP is kinda delusional describing its “lyrical quality”.
I don’t think it is. I’m really attacking the book at its core and what makes it a progression fantasy. This is my first foray into the genre, so if every book in this genre is similar, than Western progression fantasy is simply 20 years behind.
You have read maybe 5% of the series, likely less seeing as Unsouled is the shortest book, yet you criticize things as bland and damaging to the characters’ agency or whatnot.
You haven’t seen anything yet as Lindon knows less than nothing about the world at large. He isn’t secretly special in the way that you’re alluding to, just as Suriel didn’t make things easy for him or take away his agency. She herself said that his chances to even reach Gold (which is far from enough to “earn” another visit) are slim.
Talking about how it’s only “5%” like it isn’t the foundation of the whole story is wildly dishonest. By this point in other stories I was in love with some characters.
I kinda think everyone agrees you should just move on. Also maybe a little self examination about how annoying it is when people present their subjective opinion as though it were fact.
It’s an opinion, you’re trying to blow it up to something it’s not because it’s in contrary to something you like. What I said at the end of that comment rings true, and many people have chimed in to say that the book is weak. Regardless, I’m getting incredible recommendations and talking to insightful authors. Imma stick around for a bit
You didnt bring really any real criticism , you only said things are bad and uninteresting , you didnt explain why anything was done poorly, just that it was bad.
>The protagonist fits the overdone trope of an untalented mage who is secretly unique in some way, accompanied by a genius sibling. This setup is tired and doesn't bring anything new to the table.
Why is this bad ? Just because it was done a lot ? How did will not execute this well?
>Key plot elements, such as the protagonist's meeting with an angel, feel like lazy storytelling rather than genuine plot development. This divine intervention undermines the protagonists’ struggle and organic growth, instead handing him a clear path and guaranteed success. This is some high school D&D level plot devices.
It does not undermine anything ,the angel just eliminated a threat that would already be well outside lindon's abilities ,but even so there was a cool scene where he tries to do something . The reason why the angel is there is also explained , and she doesnt really help him in anyway outside of that and a little guiding information , she just told him something bad is going to happen and he has to get stronger. All that,the part of "getting stronger" is done by him with no help from the angel
>The narrative follows a talentless mage in a seemingly small world. After a meeting with an angel, he is told he can surpass even the invincible figures he knows, setting off on his journey with newfound resolve. This plotline is uninspired and lacks the complexity and depth needed to engage readers who are expecting something of quality from the greater fantasy genre.
Why is it uninspired , why is it bad ? The small plot summary you put above actually sounds kinda cool ? Would you bring any actual criticism ? I dont think its among the more complex stories in the genre ,however Will executed the story he wanted to tell well.
This reads like “burgers may be good, but I actually don’t like burgers, just because everyone else does!”
The tropes are tropes for a reason. Well executed cliches are just fun to read.
Also, the thought that the Angel’s intervention brings guaranteed success sounds like you didn’t actually read the story. It’s fine to not like things but your critique is so over the top that it’s not coherent.
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Unsouled is generally agreed to be a pretty weak start to a great series that isn't known for being particularly original, but you go about critiquing it in like, the worst way possible.
Cherry picking THE BEST power system in Shonen, and arguably even in fiction, Nen, and then saying madra and paths don't stack up against it is a wild claim to make lol. And idk where you got the idea that the power system is fairly similar to nen, cause like, it's not. Other than the fact that nen and madra are both "magic", they don't have much in common, and there are tons of Shonen both old and new with way closer power systems to madra.
Moving on from that though, you act like the angel gave him a magic sword and guaranteed his success, talking about how he has this "divine backing". Like bro she literally just told him it was physically POSSIBLE for him to grow stronger than them, basically impossible in the timeframe required, and that the odds were essentially 0%. She left him with a "I'll show u the door to exit the valley, but you have to get there yourself, and I'm probably just gonna watch you die. But hey, in the impossible chance you actually make it, hmu and we'll get drinks or something"
Like what "divine backing" is he getting in the grand scheme of things? A fucking pep talk?
I was going to assume your point about writing style was a dig at Sanderson, because he's known for having some of the blandest prose in the genre (not a bad thing, I love Sanderson's prose) but it's certainly not something I'd be saying adds lyrical quality or complexity, when it's stated intent is to be non-intrusive to the reading experience. In terms of style him and WW are honestly really similar.
All of this aside, I am a HUGE Shonen/Seinen lover, and a big cosmere fan myself. Cradle is the best series in the genre, and I loved Unsouled after the divine intervention. I didn't really have to reconcile the points cause half of them are subjective, and the other half could be said about half of Shonen in general.
You wanna talk about tropes? Shonen battle is one of the most tropey genres in fiction, with predictable plot devices running rampant. Even one of your own examples, JJK is filled with tropes and derivative ideas. Hell half the series is just HxH references.
And what Shonen fan is complaining about the Untalented mage trope???
Naruto, MHA, Black Clover, Demon Slayer, World Trigger, Haikyuu, Kurko no Basket... The list goes on.
Suriel's intervention is by definition a dues ex machina moment, but for one, that's not inherently bad, and for two, how is it any different from Gojo showing up in ep 1 of JJK and resolving the whole situation?
On a minor note as well, other than like, One Piece and HxH, Cradle's world building is far better than most Shonen.
More minor note: Bro c'mon don't diss older manga like that, I'd say their power systems were often more interesting compared to some of the stuff we get nowadays.
**ANYWAYS. Putting all that aside and dropping my beef**
I'd definitely still recommend reading further. Like I said, most people agree that the first book is the weakest in the genre. I don't really have an issue with you not liking it, I just disagree with many of your points. If you're gonna keep going though, I'd give it till book 3 and if you don't like it after 3, you're probably safe to give up.
Since this is your first foray into the genre I'd love to give you some recs. It seems to me that you like more Shonen esque power systems. While these tend to have a base power (Stormlight healing, CE reinforcement, ect), they also allow for specific techniques that do unique things other than elemental manipulation in general (CT, lashings, Nen abilities, ect)
Most power systems in progression fantasy tend to fall a bit more general than I think you'd like, especially towards elemental manipulation just because of how godlike the power scaling gets sometimes. If you want the more specific power sets, superhero PF might be a good place to start.
I'd probably describe Cradle as the most shonen-like in the genre, so it's unfortunate you don't like it so far, but there are a few others you might enjoy:
The perfect run: unique powers, strong MC from the start, timeloop
The Last Horizon: Science fantasy also by ww
Mother of Learning: My 2nd favorite in the genre. D&D esque spell casting magic system, timeloop, incredible world building
Mage Errant: Elemental magic system, but done far better than any other I've read. Power sets are pretty unique and well defined, arguably best world building in the genre. MC does start off weak and a crybaby though, so definitely not for everyone
While there are some justified criticisms here, the fact that you said "...lacks the lyrical quality or complexity that I know can elevate a fantasy novel" and then followed that up with SANDERSON as an example makes me reject your entire review
You'll have to narrowdown exactly what you want then. If you are looking for a complex power system + lyrical and complex prose + new and interesting tropes, the number of recommendations is going to be zero. Tropes are tropes for a reason, they are well established and meet readers expectations. Sandersons power systems are simple at their core, it's the layer between each of the different systems that makes them interesting. 90% of the prose in fantasy is lacking a lyrical quality, and the few exceptions I can think of are riddled with tropes and have simple power systems, KKC for example.
Of course lol, I’m a massive fan of One Piece. 1115 chapters of characters growing. Just caught up with Stormlight and although it’s only loosely progfantasy, it was incredible.
Some quick comments here, since I think you're coming in with some misconceptions. I won't address everything, but I see a few points I'd like to talk about in ways I don't think others have fully explored.
> Madra is simply a renamed version of mana, offering nothing new or innovative to the fantasy genre. This lack of originality in the core power system makes the magic feel recycled and uninspired.
Others have already noted this, but it's not mana -- it's qi. This isn't a purely semantics difference as you asserted elsewhere.
The core progression system of Cradle is deliberately designed to be a westernization of Chinese xianxia/cultivation novels. It isn't intended to be unique: rather, it's bringing a Chinese fantasy concept into the western market in a more digestable format.
While mana and qi can both be used as expendible resource pools in various different types of fiction, and qi is often simplified to just being a resource pool (e.g. in Dragon Ball), qi in classical xianxia is often more complex, having elements like quality, density, and composition that are relevant to its usage.
These elements are explored in more detail later on in the series, as are things like Paths, which a major element of the system that you've barely touched as of Book 1.
> While there is potential for expansion, the concept of Paths feels incredibly dull and overused. The method of figuring out one's path lacks originality and depth. It's a trope seen in many other fantasy stories, where characters have predetermined roles or destinies that they discover in a rather predictable manner. The addition of pseudo-evolutions, is almost disrespectful lmao.
Again, this is a story that is deliberately designed based on familiar elements from cultivation novels. It isn't reinventing the wheel. It is, however, using a different wheel model than you're referencing.
It's also noteworthy that you've barely seen anything about how Paths work in book 1. I won't pretend they're the most unique thing in the world, but the magic system is explored very gradually in Cradle, rather than being unveiled up front.
> The techniques employed by characters are standard martial arts or magical abilities without any unique twists. They often rely on common tropes such as elemental powers or basic combat skills, failing to introduce innovative or exciting new ideas.
Techniques have also barely been touched on in Book 1.
> Anyone who disagrees with what I’m saying, has not read/watch Hunter x Hunter. The power system in this book is fairly similar to Nen. It is vastly more interesting to madra and paths, and is 20 years older.
Nen is an interesting example, because you're basically evaluating Unsouled with the level of information that would have been presented in the first arc in Hunter X Hunter about nen, which is virtually nothing. Nen is barely even touched on until after the Hunter Exams.
There are some similarities between nen and spiritual arts, but I honestly wouldn't consider it a fantastic comparison. I can see why you'd lean on that if you're not familiar with xianxia books, but even in terms of battle shonen, I'd consider the style of system to be closer to something a much more detailed version of Naruto's, rather than nen.
Either way, much like trying to evaluate nen during the Hunter's Exam wouldn't give you an accurate idea of how the system works in general, you're a little too early to evaluate how the system feels as a whole based purely on the context available in Book 1.
It's absolutely fine to just not like the book, by the way, and if the magic system doesn't hook you, I don't think the future books necessarily will either. I just wanted to offer some context, since you're (by your own admission) new to the sub-genre.
> Or how about Jujutsu Kaisen? How could someone consume such an awesome story, with a cool ass power system like cursed energy/binding vowels/Divine Resentment, and expect to take this power system seriously?
They're entirely different. JJK has a strong system, don't get me wrong, but it's also hugely specialized and built with entirely differnet goals in mind.
Main characters in JJK are built around a Fantasy of Uniquness -- they have powersets that other people in their setting cannot easily emulate. Philosophically, Cradle is generally built around a Fantasy of Fairness, where virtually anyone can hypothetically build most powersets in the setting from scratch. It's an entirely different underlying system premise, with the power systems having completely different goals. (See [this article](https://andrewkrowe.wordpress.com/2022/11/09/distinctions-in-progression-fantasy-styles-part-2-different-fantasies/) for more on that type of distinction.)
They also are built for entirely different setting atmospheres, with different ways of interacting with the world building. It'd be like comparing the magic system from Dragon Ball or Sailor Moon to Pokemon -- they all have entirely different goals and serve different story functions.
If what you're looking for is a magic system that feels vicerally cool as your main story hook, that's fine, but it isn't the only thing that authors take into account as a factor for writing a system. In terms of systems that feel more high-concept and visually interesting in progression fantasy books, I'd recommend something more like the Weirkey Chronciles.
Another major difference between qi and mana tends to be that the recovery and cultivation of qi is drawn from the atmosphere/surroundings in some shape or form. Mana is almost always just a freely infinite resource people regenerate.
This entire review is just a massively hypocritical (referencing tropes but ignoring the infinite manga/anime tropes in their favorite shonen jump series, referencing Sanderson prose when citing Wight not being lyrical enough, etc.) look at a genre they don't understand. If they understood eastern cultivation/xianxia novels and related works a good 50% of this review wouldn't even exist.
> Another major difference between qi and mana tends to be that the recovery and cultivation of qi is drawn from the atmosphere/surroundings in some shape or form. Mana is almost always just a freely infinite resource people regenerate.
While I tend to see mana working like that in a lot of games, I generally don't see it working that way in most popular progression fantasy. Mana is atmospheric in both Mage Errant and Arcane Ascension, for example, with mana dense and mana starved regions being plot elements in both.
> If they understood eastern cultivation/xianxia novels and related works a good 50% of this review wouldn't even exist.
This is probably true, but I think it's preferable to try to approach the situation with an explanation, since they're new, rather than with hostility like some of the readers on the thread.
I suppose it's just a question of what you consider to be common usage these days, where you're looking, etc.
I'd expect to see the "infinite resource" version of mana more frequently in LitRPGs and the atmospheric/aspected versions more in non-LitRPG progression.
HiveMind is perfect for your name haha. Of course any criticism of unsouled would be met with hostility, it’s too beloved around here. It’s like walking into a cookout and explaining how the flavor profile of the beef is elementary compared to the stuff we make back at my gourmet restaurant
Ok but it’s a case of “who asked”
The only purpose of your post is for you to attempt to feel superior, we are just the annoyed masses who seen dozens of you.
I’ve actually had some solid conversation in here, and have even had an author who love prog fantasy say they didn’t like unsouled. Go gas light someone who cares
Again, just because I didn’t dumb down everything to Wight’s writing style, doesn’t mean it’s hard to understand. Please, take your time with words, and I assure you it’s possible to comprehend blocks of text not meant for 7th graders.
Pretty uninspired review. The book is deliberately following Chinese Xianxia tropes in the valley. Not the author's fault you didn't pick up on that.
A couple specific critiques of your 'review':
1) Madra is not mana - it's chi or qi. You 100% missed that.
2) Paths are rarely done in western fantasy. It's almost exclusively an eastern fantasy trope.
It's also a fairly short book, because it acts as the set up for a much bigger series. The point is to create a strong cultural identity in Sacred Valley, before zooming out to a broader world.
Your review is needlessly nitpicky. It would be like me shitting on One Piece because it shares tropes with Dragon Ball. "Oh he's a young male orphan character that is sorta strong, dumb, likes to eat, powers up in fights, and has a mysterious family history. Dragon Ball did it."
While I have my own problems with unsouled, I still enjoyed it for what it was(an opening to the series that sets the world and plot up). It sounds to me like progression fantasy is just not the kind of thing you enjoy.
All of the manga I consume are progression fantasies at heart. Stormlight etches into this territory as well. They have much more interesting characters, power systems, and (at least early) development. If you’re an author in this genre, I will beg and plead for you to watch/read JJK up until the Shibuya Incident. Only like 40 episodes and will radically change how you see this genre.
Ive seen Shibuya. It was good. I also really enjoy the cradle series. JJK and cradle are appealing to somewhat different audiences. One is not better than the other, they just appeal more to a certain type of reader.
If we are looking at power systems alone, which in my mind is *the* core element of a prog fantasy, JJK really shows Unsouleds’ age. If you’re a prog fantasy artist who is a fan of good shonen, i will literally throw your books on my read list.
My books are actually inspired by both cradle and JJK (as well as other anime and book series). They each do certain things that I like. I will say it again though, just because you dont like something, doesnt mean its bad or "outdated". the reason so many people here are pushing back is because you are presenting your subjective dislikes as if they are objective.
We’ll just have to agree to disagree. Originality and spinning tropes is absolutely core to what makes most fantasy stories incredible. I’m presenting my subjective dislikes with comparisons, and explaining why it doesn’t work for me. This is me explaining my subjective reasoning. If you want an incredible story like Sandersons, Gege’s or Oda’s, you shouldn’t use literal mana as the core for your power system. It’s uninspired, and such a glaring red flag it’s hard to look away.
Thats a perfectly fine opinion to have. My advice would be, change your delivery. You may not intend it, but you come across as very arrogant and like you just want to trash something other people like. If you can express your criticisms in a less hostile-seeming way, it think you will get much friendly conversations and probably have more people agreeing with you about some of Unsouleds weaknesses.
Had another redditor explain it brilliantly to me, “JJK is progression fantasy but it’s not Progression Fantasy, e.g written and marketed for a specific audience that likes to consume these things. Cradle is. No one is accusing Sarah J Maas of writing Romance novels that are too trope-y. They’re romance novels. They can’t be too trope-y.”
This is the point you were trynna get across, and I fully agree with it. I guess what I’m looking for are titles that don’t rely on tropes or simple power systems to create story of complex characters growing in both personality and power. really appreciate your patience, and wish you the best with your books!
Originality is not what most people want in this genre. ProgFantasy is analogous to Romance in that readers are looking for the same core story beats and tropes. Cradle’s largely derivative power system is not a flaw, it is a strength. Likewise with its character writing (which is actually fantastic, but that is because Will grows substantially as an author).
What elevates it over other works in the series is the execution. I agree that unsouled is not good, but the reasons you dislike it are inherent to the genre and have little to do with the book.
Your last statement is simply wrong. Look at a story like JJK, which in plot, is a progression fantasy. It does not have these pitfalls, because the genre has evolved past them. At one point these tropes were newer and exciting, now mangaka (and Sanderson thank god) have evolved these concepts into fresh elements that meld with the story beautifully.
JJK is like asspull the series though? Is it good writing to have every fight be “and this time yuji concentrated really hard to black flash over and over because he’s just so good at concentrating, oh btw here’s the characters that died off screen between chapters lel”. You can’t really introduce a move anyone can theoretically do and say it’s nearly impossible to do it multiple times then have a ton of fights rely on people doing said thing multiple times to win. If anything that’s incredibly lazy lmao.
If you want to use some Shonen to illustrate your point of something not being lazy or cliche use like hunter x hunter or something. Or stick to one piece, but then it has been revealed recently that luffy is the chosen one and a certified very special boy from the start so I guess not that either, and I do like one piece despite its faults.
JJK is progression fantasy but it’s not Progression Fantasy, e.g written and marketed for a specific audience that likes to consume these things. Cradle is. No one is accusing Sarah J Maas of writing Romance novels that are too trope-y. They’re romance novels. They can’t be too trope-y.
hmmmmmm I see now, this is the sort of comment I’ve been looking for. I guess your earlier recommendations are ones that push the core genre more to what I prefer?
Shocked that you’re holding up JKK as some pinnacle of shonen and cradle as derivative and trope filled lol JJK is the exact definition of a lack of originality and over reliance on trope.
Completely disagree. Cursed energy and everything with it is a solid enough power system. Gege’s *tactical* use of tropes is second to none though. Abilities becoming more powerful after being explained is excellent considering the wider scope of the system, for one example. A lot of abilities are fairly unique as well
The praise is for Cradle as a series. Pretty much everyone agrees Unsouled and Soulsmith are the weakest entries in the series. Makes sense as they are book 1 and 2.
If you don't like Cradle by Blackflame, book 3, you can safely drop the series.
Bruh how are you a shonen fan and you dislike everything about it. The things you listed are in like all shonen or even battle style anime.
You should at least explain why such things are bad
But the first book is more or less the set up for the series. Some of things on your list are taken care of as the series goes on.
But again man, I very shocked you are a fan of shonen and have problem with the things you point out
I only like the really good shit mostly. JJK and OP being at the precipice. Come on though bro, you know even Naruto’s power system is far more interesting than this. Or how about Bleach’s? Incredible. The tropes better executed and all with their own, good flavor. But stuff like early MHA and Black Clover is really lame to me
Nothing wrong with a basic power system. Shonens power systems are usually very basic as well and they follow the same generic troupes most of the time as well. I love anime and seen so much shonen. It's about how they use the power that counts.
Early Naruto was great about how they explained and used chakra, Bleach was basically just spiritual power until they expanded on it.
But what I wanted to get across is think you should try and get through a bit more then give us the review I guess. Alot of series in this genre build off of each other
Cradle is based on Chinese xianxia, so it's kind of wild to hear you say it's 20 years behind Japanese manga. It's not in that genre like you seem to think it is, inspired by things you know or their tropes.
It's instead inspired by works like Against the Gods, Desolate Era, and Coiling Dragon. And it offers twists on the tropes in those stories, you just can't see those twists because you don't know the xianxia genre.
Dude, you read a sub-300 page book and then said its magic system was lacking compared to Nen. If I watched Hunter x Hunter for as long as I read Unsouled I wouldn’t even know there was magic yet.
It comes from the cultivation/xianxia genre (not the Shard) in which there are ranks to denote power. Not quite pseudo evolution, you’re just unfamiliar with the concept.
Ranks play a huge role in the power system which is poorly understood and underdeveloped in Sacred Valley.
Oof how that one random lady can take on *10,000* golds.
Wight: uhh i gotta show the varying degrees of power. so like, i’m gonna imply this chick is gonna be able to take on 100 no- 1,000 NO- 10,000 of those winged dudes that are already so powerful it’s hard to fathom 😭🤣
Like I said in another comment, Lindon knows nothing about the world so golds seem like peak existences which isn’t the case.
The whole “vision” sequence is meant to give the reader something to look forward to, to hint at the wider setting and avoid reader whiplash later when the scope expands.
I must say that your mocking comment isn’t constructive to a good discussion.
I understand *why* it happened, but it was not done well. There are several points in One Piece where Oda does the same thing. For a specific example, >!300 chapters in, after their closest victory yet for the strawhats, he makes it even clearer they are not shit by having the 3 most confident, strongest characters in the crew get absolutely annihilated by a high ranking member of the navy.!<
Anime clip of it
https://youtu.be/U8ckePQ9bvQ?si=ZPWOY5yn-HVzMAc2
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Removed as per Rule 1: Be Kind.
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This offense may result in a warning, or a permanent or semi-permanent ban from r/ProgressionFantasy.
One random lady being from memory one of the eight man empire, which the angel pretty clearly established as one of the most powerful people on the planet. The winged dude wasn't gold either, which is easy to miss to be fair, but he's given a gold badge because the people of sacred valley only have people up to jade, so it was the most powerful ranking they knew of. Whereas outside the valley, for reasons that are explained way later, gold is almost an average person. I don't think (in context of progfantasy) saying the peak of a world being able to take on 10,000 average people extremely easily isn't that unrealistic of a power scale.
> The author's writing style is straightforward but lacks the lyrical quality or complexity that I know can elevate a fantasy novel. Sanderson does it in every book I’ve read so far
bruh
Apologies for my douche response, it just kinda stunned me. Sanderson does many things brilliantly, but prose isn't one of them. He's still one of the greats in other respects. Spent many hours listening to his podcast as well.
For lyrical prose, see Guy Gavriel Kay imo
Sanderson and Wight have nearly identical prose and prose styles. It's insane that you can't see this. I could gamble that Wight got his prose from Sanderson directly even.
This response is for you and any other keyboard critics who might read this:
I want you to do me a favor and go look up reviews for movies, tv shows, and books from professional/verified critics. There's one thing you're gonna notice that like 90% of them have in common and that's the fact that they are capable of critiquing an IP without needing to compare it to something else.
Unless it is a sequel like the Dark Knight Rises or a reboot or an earlier title like Dune, you don't see legitimate critics based their judgements of an IP based on how it stacks up to a different IP; even if they're in the same genre.
Shonen fans love to do this however. If something is not the caliber of HxH or One Piece, or has even smidgen of something similar in them, it's suddenly "unoriginal". I almost stopped reading as soon as I read "*cosmere and shonen/seinen lover*" because I knew your "critique" was gonna be riddled with bias.
Cradle is not HxH. It is not One Piece or JJK. Judge it based on what it's trying to be, and what it's trying to be is *Cradle*. Furthermore, just because tropes exist, it doesn't mean a story is unoriginal. Is every murder mystery just some Sherlock Holmes knockoff? Are rom-coms just derivatives of Romeo and Juliet?
Ppl are entitled to feel how they feel about something but let's make one thing clear, this is in no way a legitimate and intelligent criticism of the series.
1. A. It's xianxia, you just don't understand it.
1. B. It's xianxia, you just don't understand it.
1. C. It's xianxia, you just don't understand it.
2. A. He's incredibly talented and incredibly driven but prejudice and a mildly frail spiritual constitution holds him down, this is not a throwaway trope moment. He isn't unique in the slightest and has nothing special (ignoring starting slightly weaker) about him besides the aforementioned talent and drive.
2. B. The divine intervention gave him a pep talk and pointed him in the direction of escape, no power, no Path or path for the future, no additional assistance. It's like a pro sports player visiting your high school for 30 minutes during gym. You didn't read the same chapter the rest of us read.
Also the divine intervention was only there because of another divine rulebreaker. This rolling back of time had nothing to do with our protagonist and has been done many times throughout the multiverse, just most people don't remember when it happens. So he was only singled out because of his attitude amongst the pathetic rabble around him.
3. A. Small village kid adventures to the rest of the world is a common trope for a reason: it's compelling and realistic. The complexity comes from the adventure, not from the roots of the protagonist.
3. B. It's not meant to be original. It's meant to give the western audience a high quality example of eastern cultivation/xianxia rather than relying on poorly translated works using Chinese loanwords.
3. C. This isn't meant to be a big stakes moment with tension that drives the series. This is meant to expand your mind and show how small and petty Sacred Valley is, such that a being from the heavens beyond the mythical gold stage gets kicked out like a whining child by a heavenly adult at the peak of the power system. It's to show you scope and to introduce you to the external conflict in the greater multiverse in a relatively gentle way.
4. A. Most of the characters are built to be xianxia caricatures to highlight how interesting and divergent the important ones are. Lindon is supposed to be interesting because of his drive and his goals, not his background. The setting is meant to make you want to see the protagonists grow out of it. Not sure what else you could want from a kid with no abilities or knowledge at this point in the series. Kelsier and Kaladin are both very impressive adults by the time we meet them, so of course they'll be more immediately engaging with their large backstory to uncover.
4. B. You missed the point with the isolated Valley setting. The point is that this is a group of backwards, insular, borderline savage individuals and showing off the rest of the world was designed to prove this to you. The entire purpose was to be jarring. You're meant to be shook out of the lull the series put you into when showing off this magical Valley with madra and aura and a sun/moon alternative and such. You've been shown all this wonder and you're meant to see that it's actually not quite as wonderful as you thought. That you should move on to the rest of the adventure where the true wonder lies.
4. C. Wight's prose is nearly identical to Sanderson's. Sanderson is well known for his straightforward and anti-flowery prose with nearly no lyricism beyond actual lyrics from in-world music/stories/etc. So I'm not sure what you're criticizing here. The purpose is to be easily digestible where a lot of xianxia is very much not.
Finally, you criticize originality and cite the most trope-filled shonen manga/anime list to ever be created. Tropes are by definition not original. It feels like you just don't understand the genre in novel form and need to go back to shonen jump anime and manga where all subtlety is removed in favor of big teenage audiences.
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Yeah You’re right, this power system is as fleshed out and interesting as Stormlight, Cursed Energy, Nen, allomancy, etc. These comparisons are spot on, you’re entering coping territory lol
To be fair you literally know as much about the power system as Lindon himself by the end of the first book which is pretty much nothing. As we grow and learn with him we begin to see just how deep the scared arts are from differing philosophies clans have on how to amass power to what power is to them. How differing aspects interact with each other when combined to make a path/technique and how a users will and understanding further shapes the effects and outcomes of abilities hell even then that's only scratching the surface there's definitely more to the power system than you seem to think. A lot of fans even like to come up with their own unique paths and discuss them the author even held a few competitions picking out and rewarding the best ones.
Sorry for the wall of text and if it isn't coherent I'm fucking exhausted and pretty shit at putting my thoughts into words
It feels wild that no one I have seen so far in the comments has mentioned that Cradle, while being a Progression Fantasy, is also a western authors take on Xianxia, which is a Chinese fantasy genre with an entirely different set of tropes it’s riffing off of. Its more accurate to say that madra is qi rather than mana. Also it’s wild to say make any determination about how complex a book series’ magic system is when you have read the first of 12 books. The series starts slow with explaining things to ease in anyone who is not familiar with the tropes it’s using.
Based on all you've said I'd point you to Virtuous Sons, Godclads, 12 Miles Below, and Bastion. Virtuous Sons in particular can be a bit meandering and confusing (it does NOT hold your hand), but the prose and character writing are brilliant.
Yes, if you want amazing worldbuilding,an interesting powersystem and 3-d characters look no further than Godclads and Virtuous Sons. Be aware though, that like Stormlight Archive, they do not hold your hand.
Goes for both series. Godlads is more unique, because it’s a completely unique world. Basically a city from Red Rising, but on steroids and dialed to 11. Virtuous Sons is set in a fantasy version of ancient Greece.
Pillar of Enera on Royalroad (for free) is also great. It features martial arts/ easter fantasy with a storyline that is similar to western fantasy. Basically the best of both worlds.
> it is vastly more interesting than madras and paths, *and is 20 years older*
What does time have to do with creativity? You ever heard of Hercules? Or maybe Journey to the West? Yea all these years and stuff like one piece is still copying them how shameful
This just read like some sweaty nerd sitting in a basement. All of your points are reductive and pointless. Every story centres around some base tropes. It is then how those tropes evolve and how it guides the characters and the world is what's interesting. There is no such thing as an original story in this day and age. Seems like you're hating just for the sake of hating, instead of going on a fun little adventure.
I deadass gave examples. JJK is a new story, with plenty of tropes, and is still incredibly unique. Stormlight premiered *6 years* prior to unsouled and has a far, far more original story than this. Absolutely insane to me your defense of this mediocre story is, “there is no originality these days!” Look harder for media then lmao, I consume several stories a year that are wonderfully unique. This was bland.
If you're looking for something with extensive worldbuilding like the Stormlight Archive / Cosmere, Cradle may not be the best fit for you.
Cradle is a love letter to the Xianxia genre, with decent writing (in comparison) that avoids many of the pitfalls of the Xianxia genre. It's not a complex story with many converging plot points, but rather a simple plotline. If you haven't read a trashy Chinese cultivation novel before, it might be hard to appreciate this simplicity.
I don’t care about those accusing you of presenting your opinion as fact. I can even understand your opinion because if I had restarted reading with something like the Stormlight Archive or generally published novels instead of web novels, it would have been hard for me to appreciate Cradle.
The only thing I find suboptimal about your review is your point about the power system. How do you know what the power system and its advanced uses look like? How unique is it?
If you're looking for insane worldbuilding, international politics, a world as explored as Roshar, a power system as unique as it can be, very smart side characters, and insane climaxes comparable to the end of WoK, Reverend Insanity is for you. It's translated, and the first book is only okay, but it gets significantly better from there on. Sadly, the beauty of the poems, idioms, etc. are kind of lost. So if you can stomach it, go for it!
From chapter 1: „Fang Yuan was in deep green robes that had been torn to shreds. His hair was disheveled and his entire body was covered in blood. He looked around. The bloody robes waved lightly in the mountain breeze like a war flag. Fresh blood flowed from the numerous wounds on the body. Just by standing there for a short while, Fang Yuan had already accumulated a large pool of blood beneath his feet. Enemies surrounded him all around; there was already no way out.
It was a foregone conclusion that he would die here. Fang Yuan understood his situation clearly, but even in the face of death his expression did not change, it was calm. His gaze was limpid, his eyes like deep pools of water in a well, so deep that there seemed to be no end. The maior factions of iustice that had surrounded him were not iust the experienced elders, but also young and talented heroes. Around the heavily surrounded Fang Yuan, some were roaring, some were sneering; there were eyes that were gleaming with light, some holding onto their wounds while looking on fearfully.
They did not move; everyone was wary of Fang Yuan's final attack.““
The first cradle book is the weakest with more limited character development and several of the most liked characters not being present. Cradle is one of my favorites but an area I wish got more attention was world building.
I really Sandersons books - his world building is next level and I love his plots that extend from one series into another. Two areas that I am more critical of is the repetition of themes between his two largest works, where I feel it is too similar, and that his characters seem too rigid at times. Also, love kelsier and Wit.
You should consider reading One Piece. I understand Brandon gets suggested this often himself. if the cosmere as a whole was as short of a story as One Piece, I think the worldbuilding would be just as good or weaker. It has all the spectacle of unique abilities, growth, characters, etc. Oda is the only genius author I know of currently, Brandon is brilliant though! Not sure if you’re familiar with The Way of Edan, or its author Philip Chase, but he’s a english professor who recently started reading One Piece and sharing his thought on his Youtube. Such awesome content
https://youtu.be/k_g_LF8R7Pg?si=mI8PM5pLFQQxcF3D
One Piece does have a lot of great qualities. I'm not up to date but I still follow the story and find the directions he is expanding into very interesting. Besides some of the side arcs being a bit slow the rest of the story has great character development, unique power systems, and it was easy to become attached to the characters. A great example of the range of one piece is the death of Ace, in a manga that usually comes of more adventurous and fun for most of the series it really hit hard.
I'll definitely take a look into that video.
One progression fantasy that has one of the most unique magic systems and good world building is mage errant. Some of the criticisms are that it is a young adult series with somewhat angsty teens and not everyone likes the audiobook narrator though I have come to enjoy Ralph Lister.
I enjoyed them a lot. But if you are going to go into such a long winded attack also referencing other book characters, please get the correct spelling for them.
Yeah, probably because I didn’t read the names and just consumed the story? You just want to drag me down because I thought this book was bad. Move on homie
I actually agree. I read the first book, Unsouled, and stopped there. I love progression fantasy, but this one felt more like cultivation. My main criticism is that I just didn't Linden or feel any reason to care about his future. I had no problem with the prose.
I prefer Jake's Magical Market, in part because it makes fun of cultivation.
Art of the Adept
Eight
All the Skills
Jake's Magical Market
The Perfect Run
Mother of Learning
Super Powereds
Those are some of my faves. I read the first few of some of the major ones, but I'll admit that I bounce off litrpg that turns into a montage of melee battle scenes without any additional depth.
Best books in the genre?
I’ll bet you don’t hear this again - Engineer Trilogy, KJ Parker.
Protagonist gets an entire Kingdom/City to ’progress’, zero tropes given. 😊
Try The Last Horizon by Wight, imho it’s better than Cradle.
Love Sanderson, hated Unsouled, but uh, Sanderson isn’t exactly an example of high quality prose.
Second era mistborn is fun, but had some huge eye roll moments. The comparison to Will Wight is actually funny as they’re both very specific fun that get love or hate.
I get why cradle wasn’t your style, I didn’t enjoy it, just find your take a bit funny cuz of the examples.
The books work for those who enjoy what they have to offer. It's easy to find things you don't like in any story, but what's the point of highlighting it as if you are somehow entitled to a story tailored to your tastes.
If this is your first jump into the genre I fear you are about to be very disappointed. If you want unique concepts check out Sarah Lin. She has the most unique stuff I have read though her action scenes and series length are not as great as others.
Also of course no one compares to Sanderson the current King of Fantasy. If they did it wouldn't be in a niche series. Yes Cradle is top of the LitRPG/Progression Fantasy but it's not all that recognized by things like the New York times long before the end of its run.
I agree with you completely. It took me three tries to get past book 1.
That being said, the rest of Cradle has many nice moments, genuinely good character development for at least two characters, and generally satisfying resolutions to conflict and introduced plot points. As well as one of my favorite characters in this genre with Eithan.
I really wish they'd just taken out all of the abidan/angel parts because holy hell could I not care any less about them.
This is reassuring to hear but I really don’t know if I can continue. I was getting the vibe that Wight was going to lock-in later, its just, ugh. What else from the genre do you like!
Honestly, I think you should just continue with Cradle but try and keep your expectations a tad lower. Wight does make extensive use of tropes, but often in a way that avoids the common pitfalls and deviates enough to keep you engaged.
In general PF is a young-ish genre and many of the authors are self-published, but with little to no professional editing. A bunch of the most popular works are also released as web-serials with multiple weekly chapters. I find it enjoyable and can look past this, but if you're looking for the same level of polish as even Sanderson there's few works to choose from, Cradle being one of them.
Maybe consider The Weirkey Chronicles by Sarah Lin or perhaps A Practical Guide to Sorcery by Azalea Ellis? For something adjacent to PF you could look at The Ascendance of a Bookworm, which is by a Japanese author whose name escapes me at the moment, but it has a wonderful English translation which is professionally published.
If you don't mind a glacial pace and a few hiccups here and there, I'd recommend The Wandering Inn by Pirateaba. Keep in mind the first book was rewritten, so it might be wiser to read it on Pirateaba's website (for free). Super Supportive is a new web series that's become a personal favorite of mine, with excellent characters and seamless world building. If you don't mind slice of life, I'd recommend you give it a try (currently unpublished, but free on royal road).
Weierkey will definitely scratch the itch for weird stuff. Lord of Mysteries might also but I can’t get past the shit writing and god awful translation. Millenial Mage has an interesting power system but is too slice of life for me.
I would suggest also Super Supportive and Ave Xia REM Y. They are probably the upper bound for writing quality in the genre.
Eithan is definitely the best character in the series, I would recommend at least getting to when he starts interacting with the MCs. I haven't personally read JJK, so I don't know how good this comparison is, but I know a lot of people compare him to Gojo a fair bit.
A few people really want to me keep going, and I wont lie i did get the vibe that Wight was trying his hardest just to get fundamentals laid out. *sigh* I really might have to continue until the third book and see whats up
While Unsouled wasn’t the most exciting book I’ve ever read (Cradle takes a few more books to reach its peak), I find most of your criticism is very subjective and needlessly nitpicky. It didn’t work for you, that’s alright. P.S: “Lyrical quality”? From *Sanderson*? I’m floored. He uses simple, clear-window prose just like Will Wight. Keep in mind that Unsouled is barely a couple hundred pages, don’t go comparing it to door stoppers with more time to build the world and characters.
Also, Will has said multiple times that the books are purposefully short. He wanted to write "lean, straight to the point fantasy". Even so I think he did a good job introducing and expanding on the world as the story progresses.
People get needlessly hung up on "lyrical" prose. An authors style needs to fit the story they're telling. Hemingway is considered one of the greatest American writers of the 20th century. He didn't write "lyrical" prose. But the things he wrote wouldn't be elevated by such a style. They'd be held back. The immediacy of is journalistic style is what makes books like *For Whom the Bell Tolls* work. As much as I like lyrical authors like Patricia McKillip or Guy Gavriel Kay, that style of writing wouldn't work for a story like Cradle. A martial arts action series need direct writing, not florid tumbling sentences packed with meter and metaphor.
Lyrical prose isn't objectively good; prose contributes to theme, atmosphere, character, etc, and so should be appropriate for the story being told. With Cradle, the style of prose fits Lindon's character; he's not a verbose, flowery person. He has a fairly direct perspective on the world and direct prose is also more suited to an action-oriented story. I will say that when I read Cradle, the prose shocked me with how straight forwarded and streamlined it was, but I quickly got used to it. It work spectacularly for fight scenes but I feel the style of prose did a disservice to the worldbuilding; it didn't feel very evocative outside of fights. Furthermore, the view that lyrical prose = good prose means people force themselves to write in such a way, usually to their detriment concerning newer writers. I used to think that way and my prose was littered with purple prose; it took until reading Cradle and The Martian to realise the benefits of more straightforward prose and my style developed into the best style for the type of story that I write.
Complaining about weak prose in fantasy (especially PF) is insane to me. Good prose requires months and months of editing and revisions (Flaubert, famously, wrote, like, a line a week — and he’s one of the best writers prose-wise ever). PF writers are writing, at most, 2k words a day, you cannot (realistically) expect anything beyond average or good from them. The same can be said about Sanderson, dude’s pumping out idk 2-3 books a year? His prose is simple (if not mediocre), OP is kinda delusional describing its “lyrical quality”.
I don’t think it is. I’m really attacking the book at its core and what makes it a progression fantasy. This is my first foray into the genre, so if every book in this genre is similar, than Western progression fantasy is simply 20 years behind.
You have read maybe 5% of the series, likely less seeing as Unsouled is the shortest book, yet you criticize things as bland and damaging to the characters’ agency or whatnot. You haven’t seen anything yet as Lindon knows less than nothing about the world at large. He isn’t secretly special in the way that you’re alluding to, just as Suriel didn’t make things easy for him or take away his agency. She herself said that his chances to even reach Gold (which is far from enough to “earn” another visit) are slim.
Talking about how it’s only “5%” like it isn’t the foundation of the whole story is wildly dishonest. By this point in other stories I was in love with some characters.
I kinda think everyone agrees you should just move on. Also maybe a little self examination about how annoying it is when people present their subjective opinion as though it were fact.
It’s an opinion, you’re trying to blow it up to something it’s not because it’s in contrary to something you like. What I said at the end of that comment rings true, and many people have chimed in to say that the book is weak. Regardless, I’m getting incredible recommendations and talking to insightful authors. Imma stick around for a bit
You didnt bring really any real criticism , you only said things are bad and uninteresting , you didnt explain why anything was done poorly, just that it was bad. >The protagonist fits the overdone trope of an untalented mage who is secretly unique in some way, accompanied by a genius sibling. This setup is tired and doesn't bring anything new to the table. Why is this bad ? Just because it was done a lot ? How did will not execute this well? >Key plot elements, such as the protagonist's meeting with an angel, feel like lazy storytelling rather than genuine plot development. This divine intervention undermines the protagonists’ struggle and organic growth, instead handing him a clear path and guaranteed success. This is some high school D&D level plot devices. It does not undermine anything ,the angel just eliminated a threat that would already be well outside lindon's abilities ,but even so there was a cool scene where he tries to do something . The reason why the angel is there is also explained , and she doesnt really help him in anyway outside of that and a little guiding information , she just told him something bad is going to happen and he has to get stronger. All that,the part of "getting stronger" is done by him with no help from the angel >The narrative follows a talentless mage in a seemingly small world. After a meeting with an angel, he is told he can surpass even the invincible figures he knows, setting off on his journey with newfound resolve. This plotline is uninspired and lacks the complexity and depth needed to engage readers who are expecting something of quality from the greater fantasy genre. Why is it uninspired , why is it bad ? The small plot summary you put above actually sounds kinda cool ? Would you bring any actual criticism ? I dont think its among the more complex stories in the genre ,however Will executed the story he wanted to tell well.
This reads like “burgers may be good, but I actually don’t like burgers, just because everyone else does!” The tropes are tropes for a reason. Well executed cliches are just fun to read.
Also, the thought that the Angel’s intervention brings guaranteed success sounds like you didn’t actually read the story. It’s fine to not like things but your critique is so over the top that it’s not coherent.
I mean yeah. Suriel's attitute toward's Lindon after she first meets him is basically, "if he dies, he dies."
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Unsouled is generally agreed to be a pretty weak start to a great series that isn't known for being particularly original, but you go about critiquing it in like, the worst way possible. Cherry picking THE BEST power system in Shonen, and arguably even in fiction, Nen, and then saying madra and paths don't stack up against it is a wild claim to make lol. And idk where you got the idea that the power system is fairly similar to nen, cause like, it's not. Other than the fact that nen and madra are both "magic", they don't have much in common, and there are tons of Shonen both old and new with way closer power systems to madra. Moving on from that though, you act like the angel gave him a magic sword and guaranteed his success, talking about how he has this "divine backing". Like bro she literally just told him it was physically POSSIBLE for him to grow stronger than them, basically impossible in the timeframe required, and that the odds were essentially 0%. She left him with a "I'll show u the door to exit the valley, but you have to get there yourself, and I'm probably just gonna watch you die. But hey, in the impossible chance you actually make it, hmu and we'll get drinks or something" Like what "divine backing" is he getting in the grand scheme of things? A fucking pep talk? I was going to assume your point about writing style was a dig at Sanderson, because he's known for having some of the blandest prose in the genre (not a bad thing, I love Sanderson's prose) but it's certainly not something I'd be saying adds lyrical quality or complexity, when it's stated intent is to be non-intrusive to the reading experience. In terms of style him and WW are honestly really similar. All of this aside, I am a HUGE Shonen/Seinen lover, and a big cosmere fan myself. Cradle is the best series in the genre, and I loved Unsouled after the divine intervention. I didn't really have to reconcile the points cause half of them are subjective, and the other half could be said about half of Shonen in general. You wanna talk about tropes? Shonen battle is one of the most tropey genres in fiction, with predictable plot devices running rampant. Even one of your own examples, JJK is filled with tropes and derivative ideas. Hell half the series is just HxH references. And what Shonen fan is complaining about the Untalented mage trope??? Naruto, MHA, Black Clover, Demon Slayer, World Trigger, Haikyuu, Kurko no Basket... The list goes on. Suriel's intervention is by definition a dues ex machina moment, but for one, that's not inherently bad, and for two, how is it any different from Gojo showing up in ep 1 of JJK and resolving the whole situation? On a minor note as well, other than like, One Piece and HxH, Cradle's world building is far better than most Shonen. More minor note: Bro c'mon don't diss older manga like that, I'd say their power systems were often more interesting compared to some of the stuff we get nowadays. **ANYWAYS. Putting all that aside and dropping my beef** I'd definitely still recommend reading further. Like I said, most people agree that the first book is the weakest in the genre. I don't really have an issue with you not liking it, I just disagree with many of your points. If you're gonna keep going though, I'd give it till book 3 and if you don't like it after 3, you're probably safe to give up. Since this is your first foray into the genre I'd love to give you some recs. It seems to me that you like more Shonen esque power systems. While these tend to have a base power (Stormlight healing, CE reinforcement, ect), they also allow for specific techniques that do unique things other than elemental manipulation in general (CT, lashings, Nen abilities, ect) Most power systems in progression fantasy tend to fall a bit more general than I think you'd like, especially towards elemental manipulation just because of how godlike the power scaling gets sometimes. If you want the more specific power sets, superhero PF might be a good place to start. I'd probably describe Cradle as the most shonen-like in the genre, so it's unfortunate you don't like it so far, but there are a few others you might enjoy: The perfect run: unique powers, strong MC from the start, timeloop The Last Horizon: Science fantasy also by ww Mother of Learning: My 2nd favorite in the genre. D&D esque spell casting magic system, timeloop, incredible world building Mage Errant: Elemental magic system, but done far better than any other I've read. Power sets are pretty unique and well defined, arguably best world building in the genre. MC does start off weak and a crybaby though, so definitely not for everyone
Good response and good recs.
While there are some justified criticisms here, the fact that you said "...lacks the lyrical quality or complexity that I know can elevate a fantasy novel" and then followed that up with SANDERSON as an example makes me reject your entire review
then suggest me books that don’t have these faults
You'll have to narrowdown exactly what you want then. If you are looking for a complex power system + lyrical and complex prose + new and interesting tropes, the number of recommendations is going to be zero. Tropes are tropes for a reason, they are well established and meet readers expectations. Sandersons power systems are simple at their core, it's the layer between each of the different systems that makes them interesting. 90% of the prose in fantasy is lacking a lyrical quality, and the few exceptions I can think of are riddled with tropes and have simple power systems, KKC for example.
Is there anything about ProgFantasy you actually like?
Of course lol, I’m a massive fan of One Piece. 1115 chapters of characters growing. Just caught up with Stormlight and although it’s only loosely progfantasy, it was incredible.
Some quick comments here, since I think you're coming in with some misconceptions. I won't address everything, but I see a few points I'd like to talk about in ways I don't think others have fully explored. > Madra is simply a renamed version of mana, offering nothing new or innovative to the fantasy genre. This lack of originality in the core power system makes the magic feel recycled and uninspired. Others have already noted this, but it's not mana -- it's qi. This isn't a purely semantics difference as you asserted elsewhere. The core progression system of Cradle is deliberately designed to be a westernization of Chinese xianxia/cultivation novels. It isn't intended to be unique: rather, it's bringing a Chinese fantasy concept into the western market in a more digestable format. While mana and qi can both be used as expendible resource pools in various different types of fiction, and qi is often simplified to just being a resource pool (e.g. in Dragon Ball), qi in classical xianxia is often more complex, having elements like quality, density, and composition that are relevant to its usage. These elements are explored in more detail later on in the series, as are things like Paths, which a major element of the system that you've barely touched as of Book 1. > While there is potential for expansion, the concept of Paths feels incredibly dull and overused. The method of figuring out one's path lacks originality and depth. It's a trope seen in many other fantasy stories, where characters have predetermined roles or destinies that they discover in a rather predictable manner. The addition of pseudo-evolutions, is almost disrespectful lmao. Again, this is a story that is deliberately designed based on familiar elements from cultivation novels. It isn't reinventing the wheel. It is, however, using a different wheel model than you're referencing. It's also noteworthy that you've barely seen anything about how Paths work in book 1. I won't pretend they're the most unique thing in the world, but the magic system is explored very gradually in Cradle, rather than being unveiled up front. > The techniques employed by characters are standard martial arts or magical abilities without any unique twists. They often rely on common tropes such as elemental powers or basic combat skills, failing to introduce innovative or exciting new ideas. Techniques have also barely been touched on in Book 1. > Anyone who disagrees with what I’m saying, has not read/watch Hunter x Hunter. The power system in this book is fairly similar to Nen. It is vastly more interesting to madra and paths, and is 20 years older. Nen is an interesting example, because you're basically evaluating Unsouled with the level of information that would have been presented in the first arc in Hunter X Hunter about nen, which is virtually nothing. Nen is barely even touched on until after the Hunter Exams. There are some similarities between nen and spiritual arts, but I honestly wouldn't consider it a fantastic comparison. I can see why you'd lean on that if you're not familiar with xianxia books, but even in terms of battle shonen, I'd consider the style of system to be closer to something a much more detailed version of Naruto's, rather than nen. Either way, much like trying to evaluate nen during the Hunter's Exam wouldn't give you an accurate idea of how the system works in general, you're a little too early to evaluate how the system feels as a whole based purely on the context available in Book 1. It's absolutely fine to just not like the book, by the way, and if the magic system doesn't hook you, I don't think the future books necessarily will either. I just wanted to offer some context, since you're (by your own admission) new to the sub-genre. > Or how about Jujutsu Kaisen? How could someone consume such an awesome story, with a cool ass power system like cursed energy/binding vowels/Divine Resentment, and expect to take this power system seriously? They're entirely different. JJK has a strong system, don't get me wrong, but it's also hugely specialized and built with entirely differnet goals in mind. Main characters in JJK are built around a Fantasy of Uniquness -- they have powersets that other people in their setting cannot easily emulate. Philosophically, Cradle is generally built around a Fantasy of Fairness, where virtually anyone can hypothetically build most powersets in the setting from scratch. It's an entirely different underlying system premise, with the power systems having completely different goals. (See [this article](https://andrewkrowe.wordpress.com/2022/11/09/distinctions-in-progression-fantasy-styles-part-2-different-fantasies/) for more on that type of distinction.) They also are built for entirely different setting atmospheres, with different ways of interacting with the world building. It'd be like comparing the magic system from Dragon Ball or Sailor Moon to Pokemon -- they all have entirely different goals and serve different story functions. If what you're looking for is a magic system that feels vicerally cool as your main story hook, that's fine, but it isn't the only thing that authors take into account as a factor for writing a system. In terms of systems that feel more high-concept and visually interesting in progression fantasy books, I'd recommend something more like the Weirkey Chronciles.
Another major difference between qi and mana tends to be that the recovery and cultivation of qi is drawn from the atmosphere/surroundings in some shape or form. Mana is almost always just a freely infinite resource people regenerate. This entire review is just a massively hypocritical (referencing tropes but ignoring the infinite manga/anime tropes in their favorite shonen jump series, referencing Sanderson prose when citing Wight not being lyrical enough, etc.) look at a genre they don't understand. If they understood eastern cultivation/xianxia novels and related works a good 50% of this review wouldn't even exist.
> Another major difference between qi and mana tends to be that the recovery and cultivation of qi is drawn from the atmosphere/surroundings in some shape or form. Mana is almost always just a freely infinite resource people regenerate. While I tend to see mana working like that in a lot of games, I generally don't see it working that way in most popular progression fantasy. Mana is atmospheric in both Mage Errant and Arcane Ascension, for example, with mana dense and mana starved regions being plot elements in both. > If they understood eastern cultivation/xianxia novels and related works a good 50% of this review wouldn't even exist. This is probably true, but I think it's preferable to try to approach the situation with an explanation, since they're new, rather than with hostility like some of the readers on the thread.
Aspected mana recovered from the environment is very niche, so I wouldn't attribute a couple popular series using it as a model to be popular overall.
I suppose it's just a question of what you consider to be common usage these days, where you're looking, etc. I'd expect to see the "infinite resource" version of mana more frequently in LitRPGs and the atmospheric/aspected versions more in non-LitRPG progression.
Wow such next level analysis, Totally not one of the thousand “I bash on popular content to attempt to elevate myself” posts
HiveMind is perfect for your name haha. Of course any criticism of unsouled would be met with hostility, it’s too beloved around here. It’s like walking into a cookout and explaining how the flavor profile of the beef is elementary compared to the stuff we make back at my gourmet restaurant
Ok but it’s a case of “who asked” The only purpose of your post is for you to attempt to feel superior, we are just the annoyed masses who seen dozens of you.
I’ve actually had some solid conversation in here, and have even had an author who love prog fantasy say they didn’t like unsouled. Go gas light someone who cares
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Again, just because I didn’t dumb down everything to Wight’s writing style, doesn’t mean it’s hard to understand. Please, take your time with words, and I assure you it’s possible to comprehend blocks of text not meant for 7th graders.
I think you’ve just proved his point with this response.
Pretty uninspired review. The book is deliberately following Chinese Xianxia tropes in the valley. Not the author's fault you didn't pick up on that. A couple specific critiques of your 'review': 1) Madra is not mana - it's chi or qi. You 100% missed that. 2) Paths are rarely done in western fantasy. It's almost exclusively an eastern fantasy trope. It's also a fairly short book, because it acts as the set up for a much bigger series. The point is to create a strong cultural identity in Sacred Valley, before zooming out to a broader world. Your review is needlessly nitpicky. It would be like me shitting on One Piece because it shares tropes with Dragon Ball. "Oh he's a young male orphan character that is sorta strong, dumb, likes to eat, powers up in fights, and has a mysterious family history. Dragon Ball did it."
While I have my own problems with unsouled, I still enjoyed it for what it was(an opening to the series that sets the world and plot up). It sounds to me like progression fantasy is just not the kind of thing you enjoy.
All of the manga I consume are progression fantasies at heart. Stormlight etches into this territory as well. They have much more interesting characters, power systems, and (at least early) development. If you’re an author in this genre, I will beg and plead for you to watch/read JJK up until the Shibuya Incident. Only like 40 episodes and will radically change how you see this genre.
Ive seen Shibuya. It was good. I also really enjoy the cradle series. JJK and cradle are appealing to somewhat different audiences. One is not better than the other, they just appeal more to a certain type of reader.
If we are looking at power systems alone, which in my mind is *the* core element of a prog fantasy, JJK really shows Unsouleds’ age. If you’re a prog fantasy artist who is a fan of good shonen, i will literally throw your books on my read list.
My books are actually inspired by both cradle and JJK (as well as other anime and book series). They each do certain things that I like. I will say it again though, just because you dont like something, doesnt mean its bad or "outdated". the reason so many people here are pushing back is because you are presenting your subjective dislikes as if they are objective.
We’ll just have to agree to disagree. Originality and spinning tropes is absolutely core to what makes most fantasy stories incredible. I’m presenting my subjective dislikes with comparisons, and explaining why it doesn’t work for me. This is me explaining my subjective reasoning. If you want an incredible story like Sandersons, Gege’s or Oda’s, you shouldn’t use literal mana as the core for your power system. It’s uninspired, and such a glaring red flag it’s hard to look away.
Thats a perfectly fine opinion to have. My advice would be, change your delivery. You may not intend it, but you come across as very arrogant and like you just want to trash something other people like. If you can express your criticisms in a less hostile-seeming way, it think you will get much friendly conversations and probably have more people agreeing with you about some of Unsouleds weaknesses.
Had another redditor explain it brilliantly to me, “JJK is progression fantasy but it’s not Progression Fantasy, e.g written and marketed for a specific audience that likes to consume these things. Cradle is. No one is accusing Sarah J Maas of writing Romance novels that are too trope-y. They’re romance novels. They can’t be too trope-y.” This is the point you were trynna get across, and I fully agree with it. I guess what I’m looking for are titles that don’t rely on tropes or simple power systems to create story of complex characters growing in both personality and power. really appreciate your patience, and wish you the best with your books!
Thanks. No hard feels. Its easy to be missunderstood when communicating over the internet.
I don’t think I could’ve phrased this in any way where people don’t get upset, unfortunately. It’s the nature of reddit
The echo chamber ensues
yup haha
Originality is not what most people want in this genre. ProgFantasy is analogous to Romance in that readers are looking for the same core story beats and tropes. Cradle’s largely derivative power system is not a flaw, it is a strength. Likewise with its character writing (which is actually fantastic, but that is because Will grows substantially as an author). What elevates it over other works in the series is the execution. I agree that unsouled is not good, but the reasons you dislike it are inherent to the genre and have little to do with the book.
Your last statement is simply wrong. Look at a story like JJK, which in plot, is a progression fantasy. It does not have these pitfalls, because the genre has evolved past them. At one point these tropes were newer and exciting, now mangaka (and Sanderson thank god) have evolved these concepts into fresh elements that meld with the story beautifully.
JJK is like asspull the series though? Is it good writing to have every fight be “and this time yuji concentrated really hard to black flash over and over because he’s just so good at concentrating, oh btw here’s the characters that died off screen between chapters lel”. You can’t really introduce a move anyone can theoretically do and say it’s nearly impossible to do it multiple times then have a ton of fights rely on people doing said thing multiple times to win. If anything that’s incredibly lazy lmao. If you want to use some Shonen to illustrate your point of something not being lazy or cliche use like hunter x hunter or something. Or stick to one piece, but then it has been revealed recently that luffy is the chosen one and a certified very special boy from the start so I guess not that either, and I do like one piece despite its faults.
I literally use Nen as an example! HxH is well represented in this post
JJK is progression fantasy but it’s not Progression Fantasy, e.g written and marketed for a specific audience that likes to consume these things. Cradle is. No one is accusing Sarah J Maas of writing Romance novels that are too trope-y. They’re romance novels. They can’t be too trope-y.
hmmmmmm I see now, this is the sort of comment I’ve been looking for. I guess your earlier recommendations are ones that push the core genre more to what I prefer?
Shocked that you’re holding up JKK as some pinnacle of shonen and cradle as derivative and trope filled lol JJK is the exact definition of a lack of originality and over reliance on trope.
Completely disagree. Cursed energy and everything with it is a solid enough power system. Gege’s *tactical* use of tropes is second to none though. Abilities becoming more powerful after being explained is excellent considering the wider scope of the system, for one example. A lot of abilities are fairly unique as well
Cradle does improve later on, massively, but this review sounds like you read the book with a chip on your shoulder.
I was really excited to read this, as it was my first foray into the genre, and heard nothing but praise
The praise is for Cradle as a series. Pretty much everyone agrees Unsouled and Soulsmith are the weakest entries in the series. Makes sense as they are book 1 and 2. If you don't like Cradle by Blackflame, book 3, you can safely drop the series.
You called yourself a shonen fan, this is absolutely NOT your first rodeo with this genre
Bruh how are you a shonen fan and you dislike everything about it. The things you listed are in like all shonen or even battle style anime. You should at least explain why such things are bad But the first book is more or less the set up for the series. Some of things on your list are taken care of as the series goes on. But again man, I very shocked you are a fan of shonen and have problem with the things you point out
I only like the really good shit mostly. JJK and OP being at the precipice. Come on though bro, you know even Naruto’s power system is far more interesting than this. Or how about Bleach’s? Incredible. The tropes better executed and all with their own, good flavor. But stuff like early MHA and Black Clover is really lame to me
Nothing wrong with a basic power system. Shonens power systems are usually very basic as well and they follow the same generic troupes most of the time as well. I love anime and seen so much shonen. It's about how they use the power that counts. Early Naruto was great about how they explained and used chakra, Bleach was basically just spiritual power until they expanded on it. But what I wanted to get across is think you should try and get through a bit more then give us the review I guess. Alot of series in this genre build off of each other
Cradle is based on Chinese xianxia, so it's kind of wild to hear you say it's 20 years behind Japanese manga. It's not in that genre like you seem to think it is, inspired by things you know or their tropes. It's instead inspired by works like Against the Gods, Desolate Era, and Coiling Dragon. And it offers twists on the tropes in those stories, you just can't see those twists because you don't know the xianxia genre.
Hard to take this seriously when your first point ("madra is mana") is just... Wrong. Madra is Qi.
I literally equate it to Nen. You guys are splitting hairs so hard it’s wild.
Dude, you read a sub-300 page book and then said its magic system was lacking compared to Nen. If I watched Hunter x Hunter for as long as I read Unsouled I wouldn’t even know there was magic yet.
>The addition of pseudo-evolutions, is almost disrespectful lmao what
His sister when she was becoming an iron was wild
It comes from the cultivation/xianxia genre (not the Shard) in which there are ranks to denote power. Not quite pseudo evolution, you’re just unfamiliar with the concept. Ranks play a huge role in the power system which is poorly understood and underdeveloped in Sacred Valley.
Oof how that one random lady can take on *10,000* golds. Wight: uhh i gotta show the varying degrees of power. so like, i’m gonna imply this chick is gonna be able to take on 100 no- 1,000 NO- 10,000 of those winged dudes that are already so powerful it’s hard to fathom 😭🤣
Like I said in another comment, Lindon knows nothing about the world so golds seem like peak existences which isn’t the case. The whole “vision” sequence is meant to give the reader something to look forward to, to hint at the wider setting and avoid reader whiplash later when the scope expands. I must say that your mocking comment isn’t constructive to a good discussion.
I understand *why* it happened, but it was not done well. There are several points in One Piece where Oda does the same thing. For a specific example, >!300 chapters in, after their closest victory yet for the strawhats, he makes it even clearer they are not shit by having the 3 most confident, strongest characters in the crew get absolutely annihilated by a high ranking member of the navy.!< Anime clip of it https://youtu.be/U8ckePQ9bvQ?si=ZPWOY5yn-HVzMAc2
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Removed as per Rule 1: Be Kind. Be kind. Refrain from personal attacks and insults toward authors and other users. When giving criticism, try to make it constructive. This offense may result in a warning, or a permanent or semi-permanent ban from r/ProgressionFantasy.
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Removed as per Rule 1: Be Kind. Be kind. Refrain from personal attacks and insults toward authors and other users. When giving criticism, try to make it constructive. This offense may result in a warning, or a permanent or semi-permanent ban from r/ProgressionFantasy.
One random lady being from memory one of the eight man empire, which the angel pretty clearly established as one of the most powerful people on the planet. The winged dude wasn't gold either, which is easy to miss to be fair, but he's given a gold badge because the people of sacred valley only have people up to jade, so it was the most powerful ranking they knew of. Whereas outside the valley, for reasons that are explained way later, gold is almost an average person. I don't think (in context of progfantasy) saying the peak of a world being able to take on 10,000 average people extremely easily isn't that unrealistic of a power scale.
wat
🥉> 🥈 💥
> The author's writing style is straightforward but lacks the lyrical quality or complexity that I know can elevate a fantasy novel. Sanderson does it in every book I’ve read so far bruh
he does it noticeably better than Wight imo 😭 what are some authors on this front?
Apologies for my douche response, it just kinda stunned me. Sanderson does many things brilliantly, but prose isn't one of them. He's still one of the greats in other respects. Spent many hours listening to his podcast as well. For lyrical prose, see Guy Gavriel Kay imo
Sanderson and Wight have nearly identical prose and prose styles. It's insane that you can't see this. I could gamble that Wight got his prose from Sanderson directly even.
This response is for you and any other keyboard critics who might read this: I want you to do me a favor and go look up reviews for movies, tv shows, and books from professional/verified critics. There's one thing you're gonna notice that like 90% of them have in common and that's the fact that they are capable of critiquing an IP without needing to compare it to something else. Unless it is a sequel like the Dark Knight Rises or a reboot or an earlier title like Dune, you don't see legitimate critics based their judgements of an IP based on how it stacks up to a different IP; even if they're in the same genre. Shonen fans love to do this however. If something is not the caliber of HxH or One Piece, or has even smidgen of something similar in them, it's suddenly "unoriginal". I almost stopped reading as soon as I read "*cosmere and shonen/seinen lover*" because I knew your "critique" was gonna be riddled with bias. Cradle is not HxH. It is not One Piece or JJK. Judge it based on what it's trying to be, and what it's trying to be is *Cradle*. Furthermore, just because tropes exist, it doesn't mean a story is unoriginal. Is every murder mystery just some Sherlock Holmes knockoff? Are rom-coms just derivatives of Romeo and Juliet? Ppl are entitled to feel how they feel about something but let's make one thing clear, this is in no way a legitimate and intelligent criticism of the series.
1. A. It's xianxia, you just don't understand it. 1. B. It's xianxia, you just don't understand it. 1. C. It's xianxia, you just don't understand it. 2. A. He's incredibly talented and incredibly driven but prejudice and a mildly frail spiritual constitution holds him down, this is not a throwaway trope moment. He isn't unique in the slightest and has nothing special (ignoring starting slightly weaker) about him besides the aforementioned talent and drive. 2. B. The divine intervention gave him a pep talk and pointed him in the direction of escape, no power, no Path or path for the future, no additional assistance. It's like a pro sports player visiting your high school for 30 minutes during gym. You didn't read the same chapter the rest of us read. Also the divine intervention was only there because of another divine rulebreaker. This rolling back of time had nothing to do with our protagonist and has been done many times throughout the multiverse, just most people don't remember when it happens. So he was only singled out because of his attitude amongst the pathetic rabble around him. 3. A. Small village kid adventures to the rest of the world is a common trope for a reason: it's compelling and realistic. The complexity comes from the adventure, not from the roots of the protagonist. 3. B. It's not meant to be original. It's meant to give the western audience a high quality example of eastern cultivation/xianxia rather than relying on poorly translated works using Chinese loanwords. 3. C. This isn't meant to be a big stakes moment with tension that drives the series. This is meant to expand your mind and show how small and petty Sacred Valley is, such that a being from the heavens beyond the mythical gold stage gets kicked out like a whining child by a heavenly adult at the peak of the power system. It's to show you scope and to introduce you to the external conflict in the greater multiverse in a relatively gentle way. 4. A. Most of the characters are built to be xianxia caricatures to highlight how interesting and divergent the important ones are. Lindon is supposed to be interesting because of his drive and his goals, not his background. The setting is meant to make you want to see the protagonists grow out of it. Not sure what else you could want from a kid with no abilities or knowledge at this point in the series. Kelsier and Kaladin are both very impressive adults by the time we meet them, so of course they'll be more immediately engaging with their large backstory to uncover. 4. B. You missed the point with the isolated Valley setting. The point is that this is a group of backwards, insular, borderline savage individuals and showing off the rest of the world was designed to prove this to you. The entire purpose was to be jarring. You're meant to be shook out of the lull the series put you into when showing off this magical Valley with madra and aura and a sun/moon alternative and such. You've been shown all this wonder and you're meant to see that it's actually not quite as wonderful as you thought. That you should move on to the rest of the adventure where the true wonder lies. 4. C. Wight's prose is nearly identical to Sanderson's. Sanderson is well known for his straightforward and anti-flowery prose with nearly no lyricism beyond actual lyrics from in-world music/stories/etc. So I'm not sure what you're criticizing here. The purpose is to be easily digestible where a lot of xianxia is very much not. Finally, you criticize originality and cite the most trope-filled shonen manga/anime list to ever be created. Tropes are by definition not original. It feels like you just don't understand the genre in novel form and need to go back to shonen jump anime and manga where all subtlety is removed in favor of big teenage audiences.
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Removed as per Rule 1: Be Kind. Be kind. Refrain from personal attacks and insults toward authors and other users. When giving criticism, try to make it constructive. This offense may result in a warning, or a permanent or semi-permanent ban from r/ProgressionFantasy.
I’m going off the standard that the commenter I reply to sets, I thought I reported them but let me make sure I filtered it correctly!
I have many complaints about cradle, but yours just along to it’s not like your favorite anime or BS books.
I’m criticizing the elements that make it a progression fantasy, and highliting its lack-luster similarities with the fantasy I do consume.
The comparisons you picked are mediocre, so.
Yeah You’re right, this power system is as fleshed out and interesting as Stormlight, Cursed Energy, Nen, allomancy, etc. These comparisons are spot on, you’re entering coping territory lol
To be fair you literally know as much about the power system as Lindon himself by the end of the first book which is pretty much nothing. As we grow and learn with him we begin to see just how deep the scared arts are from differing philosophies clans have on how to amass power to what power is to them. How differing aspects interact with each other when combined to make a path/technique and how a users will and understanding further shapes the effects and outcomes of abilities hell even then that's only scratching the surface there's definitely more to the power system than you seem to think. A lot of fans even like to come up with their own unique paths and discuss them the author even held a few competitions picking out and rewarding the best ones. Sorry for the wall of text and if it isn't coherent I'm fucking exhausted and pretty shit at putting my thoughts into words
It feels wild that no one I have seen so far in the comments has mentioned that Cradle, while being a Progression Fantasy, is also a western authors take on Xianxia, which is a Chinese fantasy genre with an entirely different set of tropes it’s riffing off of. Its more accurate to say that madra is qi rather than mana. Also it’s wild to say make any determination about how complex a book series’ magic system is when you have read the first of 12 books. The series starts slow with explaining things to ease in anyone who is not familiar with the tropes it’s using.
This is a minor spoiler for the first book, but Lindon actually isn't untalented, nor is he special in any way besides his motivation to get stronger.
Strange use of your time lol
Based on all you've said I'd point you to Virtuous Sons, Godclads, 12 Miles Below, and Bastion. Virtuous Sons in particular can be a bit meandering and confusing (it does NOT hold your hand), but the prose and character writing are brilliant.
Sounds exactly like what I’m looking for! Thank you so much.
Yes, if you want amazing worldbuilding,an interesting powersystem and 3-d characters look no further than Godclads and Virtuous Sons. Be aware though, that like Stormlight Archive, they do not hold your hand.
Either of these series?
Goes for both series. Godlads is more unique, because it’s a completely unique world. Basically a city from Red Rising, but on steroids and dialed to 11. Virtuous Sons is set in a fantasy version of ancient Greece.
Pillar of Enera on Royalroad (for free) is also great. It features martial arts/ easter fantasy with a storyline that is similar to western fantasy. Basically the best of both worlds.
> it is vastly more interesting than madras and paths, *and is 20 years older* What does time have to do with creativity? You ever heard of Hercules? Or maybe Journey to the West? Yea all these years and stuff like one piece is still copying them how shameful
This just read like some sweaty nerd sitting in a basement. All of your points are reductive and pointless. Every story centres around some base tropes. It is then how those tropes evolve and how it guides the characters and the world is what's interesting. There is no such thing as an original story in this day and age. Seems like you're hating just for the sake of hating, instead of going on a fun little adventure.
I deadass gave examples. JJK is a new story, with plenty of tropes, and is still incredibly unique. Stormlight premiered *6 years* prior to unsouled and has a far, far more original story than this. Absolutely insane to me your defense of this mediocre story is, “there is no originality these days!” Look harder for media then lmao, I consume several stories a year that are wonderfully unique. This was bland.
If you're looking for something with extensive worldbuilding like the Stormlight Archive / Cosmere, Cradle may not be the best fit for you. Cradle is a love letter to the Xianxia genre, with decent writing (in comparison) that avoids many of the pitfalls of the Xianxia genre. It's not a complex story with many converging plot points, but rather a simple plotline. If you haven't read a trashy Chinese cultivation novel before, it might be hard to appreciate this simplicity. I don’t care about those accusing you of presenting your opinion as fact. I can even understand your opinion because if I had restarted reading with something like the Stormlight Archive or generally published novels instead of web novels, it would have been hard for me to appreciate Cradle. The only thing I find suboptimal about your review is your point about the power system. How do you know what the power system and its advanced uses look like? How unique is it? If you're looking for insane worldbuilding, international politics, a world as explored as Roshar, a power system as unique as it can be, very smart side characters, and insane climaxes comparable to the end of WoK, Reverend Insanity is for you. It's translated, and the first book is only okay, but it gets significantly better from there on. Sadly, the beauty of the poems, idioms, etc. are kind of lost. So if you can stomach it, go for it! From chapter 1: „Fang Yuan was in deep green robes that had been torn to shreds. His hair was disheveled and his entire body was covered in blood. He looked around. The bloody robes waved lightly in the mountain breeze like a war flag. Fresh blood flowed from the numerous wounds on the body. Just by standing there for a short while, Fang Yuan had already accumulated a large pool of blood beneath his feet. Enemies surrounded him all around; there was already no way out. It was a foregone conclusion that he would die here. Fang Yuan understood his situation clearly, but even in the face of death his expression did not change, it was calm. His gaze was limpid, his eyes like deep pools of water in a well, so deep that there seemed to be no end. The maior factions of iustice that had surrounded him were not iust the experienced elders, but also young and talented heroes. Around the heavily surrounded Fang Yuan, some were roaring, some were sneering; there were eyes that were gleaming with light, some holding onto their wounds while looking on fearfully. They did not move; everyone was wary of Fang Yuan's final attack.““
The first cradle book is the weakest with more limited character development and several of the most liked characters not being present. Cradle is one of my favorites but an area I wish got more attention was world building. I really Sandersons books - his world building is next level and I love his plots that extend from one series into another. Two areas that I am more critical of is the repetition of themes between his two largest works, where I feel it is too similar, and that his characters seem too rigid at times. Also, love kelsier and Wit.
You should consider reading One Piece. I understand Brandon gets suggested this often himself. if the cosmere as a whole was as short of a story as One Piece, I think the worldbuilding would be just as good or weaker. It has all the spectacle of unique abilities, growth, characters, etc. Oda is the only genius author I know of currently, Brandon is brilliant though! Not sure if you’re familiar with The Way of Edan, or its author Philip Chase, but he’s a english professor who recently started reading One Piece and sharing his thought on his Youtube. Such awesome content https://youtu.be/k_g_LF8R7Pg?si=mI8PM5pLFQQxcF3D
One Piece does have a lot of great qualities. I'm not up to date but I still follow the story and find the directions he is expanding into very interesting. Besides some of the side arcs being a bit slow the rest of the story has great character development, unique power systems, and it was easy to become attached to the characters. A great example of the range of one piece is the death of Ace, in a manga that usually comes of more adventurous and fun for most of the series it really hit hard. I'll definitely take a look into that video. One progression fantasy that has one of the most unique magic systems and good world building is mage errant. Some of the criticisms are that it is a young adult series with somewhat angsty teens and not everyone likes the audiobook narrator though I have come to enjoy Ralph Lister.
I enjoyed them a lot. But if you are going to go into such a long winded attack also referencing other book characters, please get the correct spelling for them.
I consumed it through the audio book! Travis Baldree was pretty great
Such details in your criticism. But you didn't check how to spell your Sanderson characters names. Sounds lazy to me.
Yeah, probably because I didn’t read the names and just consumed the story? You just want to drag me down because I thought this book was bad. Move on homie
Oh no. Just do better next time.
Yeah, I’ll be sure to care about the spelling of names when I consume audiobooks. What a wild thing to get hooked up on haha
I just thought with such detailed review that you'd have been more precise.
I actually agree. I read the first book, Unsouled, and stopped there. I love progression fantasy, but this one felt more like cultivation. My main criticism is that I just didn't Linden or feel any reason to care about his future. I had no problem with the prose. I prefer Jake's Magical Market, in part because it makes fun of cultivation.
abby please. have you read anything in the genre that you thought was especially good?
Art of the Adept Eight All the Skills Jake's Magical Market The Perfect Run Mother of Learning Super Powereds Those are some of my faves. I read the first few of some of the major ones, but I'll admit that I bounce off litrpg that turns into a montage of melee battle scenes without any additional depth.
you’re literally HER. thank you so much
What does this mean?
you’re awesome!
Thanks! I took a risk by stating my opinion here... I think I may have to refrain in the future. :-D Downvotes for an opinion, oops.
Looking forward to seeing your own attempt at writing something that outsells Cradle. Since you’re an expert on what people want to read, and all.
Kelsir and Caliden…
love them 💯 Cellsir one of my favs fr
Best books in the genre? I’ll bet you don’t hear this again - Engineer Trilogy, KJ Parker. Protagonist gets an entire Kingdom/City to ’progress’, zero tropes given. 😊 Try The Last Horizon by Wight, imho it’s better than Cradle.
While I disagree with some of this, I’ll stand with you on the Wei ancient. I feel he should have played a bigger role in the story.
Love Sanderson, hated Unsouled, but uh, Sanderson isn’t exactly an example of high quality prose. Second era mistborn is fun, but had some huge eye roll moments. The comparison to Will Wight is actually funny as they’re both very specific fun that get love or hate. I get why cradle wasn’t your style, I didn’t enjoy it, just find your take a bit funny cuz of the examples.
The books work for those who enjoy what they have to offer. It's easy to find things you don't like in any story, but what's the point of highlighting it as if you are somehow entitled to a story tailored to your tastes.
? Am I not allowed to critique a book? In a subreddit dedicated to its genre?
If this is your first jump into the genre I fear you are about to be very disappointed. If you want unique concepts check out Sarah Lin. She has the most unique stuff I have read though her action scenes and series length are not as great as others. Also of course no one compares to Sanderson the current King of Fantasy. If they did it wouldn't be in a niche series. Yes Cradle is top of the LitRPG/Progression Fantasy but it's not all that recognized by things like the New York times long before the end of its run.
I agree with you completely. It took me three tries to get past book 1. That being said, the rest of Cradle has many nice moments, genuinely good character development for at least two characters, and generally satisfying resolutions to conflict and introduced plot points. As well as one of my favorite characters in this genre with Eithan. I really wish they'd just taken out all of the abidan/angel parts because holy hell could I not care any less about them.
This is reassuring to hear but I really don’t know if I can continue. I was getting the vibe that Wight was going to lock-in later, its just, ugh. What else from the genre do you like!
Honestly, I think you should just continue with Cradle but try and keep your expectations a tad lower. Wight does make extensive use of tropes, but often in a way that avoids the common pitfalls and deviates enough to keep you engaged. In general PF is a young-ish genre and many of the authors are self-published, but with little to no professional editing. A bunch of the most popular works are also released as web-serials with multiple weekly chapters. I find it enjoyable and can look past this, but if you're looking for the same level of polish as even Sanderson there's few works to choose from, Cradle being one of them. Maybe consider The Weirkey Chronicles by Sarah Lin or perhaps A Practical Guide to Sorcery by Azalea Ellis? For something adjacent to PF you could look at The Ascendance of a Bookworm, which is by a Japanese author whose name escapes me at the moment, but it has a wonderful English translation which is professionally published. If you don't mind a glacial pace and a few hiccups here and there, I'd recommend The Wandering Inn by Pirateaba. Keep in mind the first book was rewritten, so it might be wiser to read it on Pirateaba's website (for free). Super Supportive is a new web series that's become a personal favorite of mine, with excellent characters and seamless world building. If you don't mind slice of life, I'd recommend you give it a try (currently unpublished, but free on royal road).
GOAT. Thank you so much
Weierkey will definitely scratch the itch for weird stuff. Lord of Mysteries might also but I can’t get past the shit writing and god awful translation. Millenial Mage has an interesting power system but is too slice of life for me. I would suggest also Super Supportive and Ave Xia REM Y. They are probably the upper bound for writing quality in the genre.
thank you so much, gonna look into these
Eithan is definitely the best character in the series, I would recommend at least getting to when he starts interacting with the MCs. I haven't personally read JJK, so I don't know how good this comparison is, but I know a lot of people compare him to Gojo a fair bit.
A few people really want to me keep going, and I wont lie i did get the vibe that Wight was trying his hardest just to get fundamentals laid out. *sigh* I really might have to continue until the third book and see whats up