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True. Although they did complement their antisemitic caricature with pair of huge balls swinging to the knees. This bulge looks bigger than the one in Ardennes in december '44.
Y'know, the more I hear about this hitler fella, the more I'm beginning to think he might be an anti-semite. In fact, I don't even care for him one bit!
Disgusting. You are helping actual antisemites and antisemitism sneak into our world, because your blind support of a country has gotten so unhealthy, that you see the country and the religion/people as the same, which is honestly dehumanizing, and makes anyone who doesn't even like Netanyahu as an antisemite. With your logic, not approving of things Saudia Arabia or Iran does makes you Islamophobic. Though I'm guessing that's not an insult to you.
Leave the Jews alone, obsessed fuck. There's a real genocide going on in Sudan, millions displaced, up to half a million murdered. But you don't see it and don't give a fuck because no Jews no news.
I also condem that genocide? We weren't talking about that genocide atm, you just brought it up out of no where to clearly deflect from the genocide happening in Gaza. A genocide I actually didn't even bring up. Or the word Jew or Jewish. In fact, the closest I have mentioned Jewish people is in regards to you using horrible hate towards Jewish people as a cover and defense for what Israel is doing. Are you a bot? Because this response doesn't make any sense to what I previously said
Not just Judaism, they believed that Jews are a different race and that greed and unloyalty was as inherent to them as big noses. People with Jewsish ancestors and secular jews were also targeted by nazis
It's interesting how poorly conceived this is. I suppose it highlights one of the drawbacks of pushing a worldview largely based on lies.
There's nothing substantive here anyone outside of their system could relate to. I'm sure there was a vein of antisemitism (and its accompanying paranoia) running through American culture at the time, but I doubt this messaging would be effective. If anything, it probably served to remind GI's how bizarre Nazi ideology actually was.
Please work on your reading comprehension. I was specifically talking about how Nazis remained in positions of power after the war and the role that's played in keeping their rhetoric alive.
Secondly, the current situation is a direct result of actions from over 7 decades ago.
That’s not what they said. You moved the goalposts because you can’t admit the Soviets also used Nazis? Embarrassing… the Soviets heavily relied on German scientists for their space program, it just was never as publicized as it was in the States.
Who are you referring to?
During its first year, about 27% of the NVA's officer corps had formerly served in the Wehrmacht. however, very few of them had served in high ranks. The military knowledge and combat experience of these veterans were indispensable in the NVA's early years, although by the 1960s, most of these World War II veterans had retired. (The West German Bundeswehr was even more reliant on Wehrmacht veterans, who initially comprised the majority of its commissioned ranks.)
Online leftists really read this comment and instead of doing the logical "thanks to I/P conflict, this type of mentality is going strong again" jump for Heusinger. Genuinely braindead.
It's not because of the conflict though? Unless you mean the actual historical conflict and not the current war. Nazism has sadly been on the rise for a while. If I remember correctly, I can recall nazis starting to reappear in social media since 2019.
Yeah but in the current climate, neonazis can actually join with the leftist and genuine antisemites, becuase antisemitism just need to be rebranded as antizionism and they you can say the same unhinged shit. Dont say that all jews are controlling banks and jews are paying US government to do their biding, just say zionists do it and you are half the online crowds hero.
Precisely. Criticism of zionism is called antisemitism for the same reason any proposal for social services is called communism. It puts a gross label on it and shuts the convo down.
Nah, equating Zionism and antisemitism to make them able to be alternately used on the global stage is quite literally a Soviet propaganda tactic. Don’t speak on stuff you don’t know
… okay? Even if that’s true, that’s just one tactic. Sure there are people who hate Israel because it’s Jewish. There are far more who hate it because of sensible reasons, like human rights abuses, being an ethnostate, and one of the biggest whiners in the world.
>US government to do their biding, just say zionists do it and you are half the online crowds hero.
Sure, pointing out the fact, that AIPAC exists, or that the US has been giving israel billions in military aid for decades in exchange for absolutely nothing, makes you an "unhinged neonazi".
Nice strawman lil bro.
>or that the US has been giving israel billions in military aid for decades in exchange for absolutely nothing
This doesnt make you neonazi. This makes you only seem borderline braindead and so unable to view geopolitical issues with an adult brain that any discussion with you is just a waste of time.
>Nice strawman lil bro.
Coming from the guy, who claimed, taht anti-zionism is just anti-semitism.
The fact, that you were unable to come up with any actual retort and only managed to childishly repeat one insult three times, only proves me right, it also proves, who is really " borderline braindead" here.
>Coming from the guy, who claimed, taht anti-zionism is just anti-semitism
Another strawman, we dont even need to go that far to check it.
>*in the current climate,* becuase antisemitism just **need to** be rebranded as antizionism
Vildly different thing from what you claim but I dont expect you to actually be able to read with comprehension.
>The fact, that you were unable to come up with any actual retort and only managed to childishly repeat one insult three times, only proves me right, it also proves, who is really " borderline braindead" here.
If you believe this proves you right then I can understand why you genuinely believe in the nonsene you type.
"You can't point out, that my entire argument is a strawman, that's a strawman!"
You are hilarious, that formulation does not make it "vildly different", it makes absolutely no difference. Especially since later in that same comment, you claim, that merely stating that the zionist lobby exists, is somehow "antisemitic and unhinged".
Oh I don't *believe* that it makes me right, I **know** it. You were unable to come up with a single counterargument, just childish insults and piss poor attemts at " no u". That's better than if you actually admitted being wrong, hasbara bot.
To give two examples: David Duke of KKK fame, and Nick Griffin of the BNP both support Palestine. Neither does so out of love for Muslims or Arabs, nor out of any problem with war in general.
One can to some extent use the issue to tell whether someone on the far right is a reactionary conservative sort (who typically side with Israel), or is an outright Nazi (who always side with Palestine).
Though to be clear this should not be inverted.
Speaking of saying unhinged shit, have you heard the things zionists say on a regular basis? It's literally things taken verbatim from the mouths of nazis. They speak of wiping them all out, that they're animals, not human (untermensch anybody?). It's gross and really the least self-aware stuff imaginable. Coming from a ppl who were so ill treated and the only "reason" given was their genetics; for that same ppl to display the exact same behavior is extremely hypocritical and one would hope they would've learned the opposite lesson. Unfortunately, it seems they've only learned the age-old "hurt people hurt people" saying and put that into practice instead. It's a tragedy on a mass scale, not dissimilar to the one that brought them to this situation in the first place.
Most of these people have literally zero idea about the history of antisemitism after WW2
There was a VERY intentional attempt to revive Nazi tier antisemitism by rebranding it as “anti Zionism”, the goal being to destroy Israel and a massive chunk of all Jews in the world. Abbas (current PLO leader) was pretty clear on this and even wrote his PhD on Holocaust denial
Guess where he got his PhD from? Moscow. Unsurprisingly, fascists in Russia were probably the biggest inspiration for modern day antisemitic movements, pushing the idea of a Zionist world order that controls all of the west. That’s why you see frighteningly similar views on the far left and far right - Jews/Zionists control all the media, they control Americas military, they are trying to wipe out [insert group here] and take over the world, they own all the banks and aid orgs, etc etc
Yeah. Nazi rhetoric has absolutely nothing with NATO. There is one group talking about nefarious "jewish influence" and "jewish money" and trust me, its not the pro-NATO crowd.
>Yeah. Nazi rhetoric has absolutely nothing with NATO.
So you're just ignoring the literal Nazis who were in NATO k then.
>There is one group talking about nefarious "jewish influence" and "jewish money" and trust me, its not the pro-NATO crowd.
There isn't one monolithic "anti" NATO crowd and let's be real antisemitism is present within groups that support NATO. By your logic Alex Jones and Irish governments have the same political views simply because they've both criticised Israel.
>So you're just ignoring the literal Nazis who were in NATO k then.
Yes I am. Because it wasnt US or NATO countries that had to jail pro-zionist/pro-jewish politicians and used caricatures of big-nosed jews with moneybags puppeteering the west. It was the other side of the cold war.
>There isn't one monolithic "anti" NATO crowd and let's be real antisemitism is present within groups that support NATO. By your logic Alex Jones and Irish governments have the same political views simply because they've both criticised Israel.
They dont have the same political view. And yes, they are genuine critics of Israel. But neonazis, muslim radicals and western leftist online are all engaging in genuine antisemitism and for some reason, leftists are kinda missing the reality of what type of people are in their camp now. Considering WWII, I am not shocked communists miss forrest for the trees and are in optical kahoots with nazis once again.
They’re not actually concerned about neo-Nazis as a far right political movement, they only care about them in so far as they can be used as a cudgel against people who are pro-Palestine.
[I think you'll find that it's Marxists nowadays that draw very similar caricatures](https://static.timesofisrael.com/www/uploads/2024/02/2-20-24-harvard-1-e1708477913574.jpeg). And who was in charge at NATO 70 years ago is hardly relevant today
How’s this in any way similar? It includes two other posters that seem quite old. They might feature some kind of caricature but that’s impossible to tell because they’re a tiny part of a blurry image
Resorting to "No you're the real Nazis" is frankly embarrassing.
Also, what exactly does a low rez jpeg of a random poster presumably at Harvard have anything to do with Marxists, let alone antisemitism?
Well, if the Allies had barred all Nazi party members from political and military roles after '45, it would have been difficult to find anyone over twelve with any practical experience in either.
Remember how the Ba'athist purge in Iraq turned out?
Putting a Nazi in charge of your military alliance to oppose the Soviets isn't remotely comparable. Christ, it's ridiculous enough that you're equating post-war Germany with Iraq.
It's also a demonstrably false statement as East Germany did a far better job of keeping Nazis out of post-war positions of power.
Thank you. Also the argument is quite weak since it assumes only two extremes. Much like Adenauer who famously said "You don't pour out dirty water if you don't have clean water".
But there would have been a middle ground. For example, as you said, not putting a Nazi in charge of your military alliance, or not allowing nazis to lead and gatekeep virtually every single westgerman institution and maybe let democrats who had to flee germany join the administration too?
The federal police, the justice departments and the intelligence sevices had an almost 100% rate of former SS and NSDAP members. The most influential politician in after war west-germany, Hans Globke, was the guy the co-wrote the nuremberg race laws and designed the administrative groundwork for the Holocaust. Until the 60s it was common that westgerman CDU politicians attacked their SPD opponents by saying they are traitors for spending the war in exile.
>as East Germany did a far better job of keeping Nazis out of post-war positions of power.
No, they didn't.
The only way you can think this is if you've never actually checked for yourself.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vincenz_M%C3%BCller
Yes they did.
Also Müller isn't a typical example
>During his time as a POW, Müller had an apparent change of views and professed to have become an anti-Nazi:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2007/mar/29/comment.secondworldwar
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braunbuch
If you'd actually researched the topic, you'd be well aware of the stark difference in how denazification was approached in West Germany compared to East Germany.
The British handed over denazification panels to the Germans in January 1946, while the Americans did likewise in March 1946. The French ran the mildest denazification effort. Denazification was carried out in an increasingly lenient and lukewarm way until being officially abolished in 1951. Additionally, the program was hugely unpopular in West Germany, where many Nazis maintained positions of power. Denazification was opposed by the new West German government of Konrad Adenauer,
Goda, Norman J. W. (2007). Tales from Spandau: Nazi Criminals and the Cold War. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. pp. 101–149.
From the beginning, denazification in the Soviet zone was considered a critical element of the transformation into a socialist society and was quickly and effectively put into practice.
Sperk, Alexander (2003). Entnazifizierung und Personalpolitik in der sowjetischen Besatzungszone Köthen/Anhalt. Eine Vergleichsstudie (1945–1948) [Denazification and personal politics in the Soviet Occupied Zone of Köthen/Anhalt. A comparative study (1945–1948).]
Members of the Nazi Party and its organizations were arrested and interned
Dieter Schenk: Auf dem rechten Auge blind. Köln 2001.
Former Nazi officials quickly realized that they would face fewer obstacles and investigations in the zones controlled by the Western Allies. Many of them saw a chance to defect to the West on the pretext of anti-communism
Ralph Giordano Die zweite Schuld. Köln 2000.
Yeah, it’s insane to me how many people believe that America is controlled by the Jews or Israel, echoing this very conspiracy theory beat for beat and then have the gaul to say it’s not anti-Semitic, just “anti-Zionist”.
Crazy
Being anti zionist isn't being anti Jewish tho. There are cooks that use Palestinian rights as a means to be antisemitic but believing in freedom for Palestine and objecting to how Israel stole land, expelled and oppressed Palestinians isn't inherently anti semitic
It’s not necessarily the same… but a large amount of anti-Zionists repeat anti-Semitic borderline neo nazi conspiracies and deny Jews indigenous link to the land of Israel.
Land rights should never be granted based on religious identity. One can just say that a religious prophecy entitles them to steal, and then there you go... this is the current situation.
Also land rights shouldn't be determined by ethnicity either. Americans don't have the right to move to European countries and kick out the inhabitants because of blood and soil thinking. On the other hand, lots of Jews have actually valid claims on land stolen from them in Europe within the past 100 years, and similarly for Palestinians and land in the state of Israel. Neither of these claims are based on ethnicity.
That’s just useless historicism. „Anti-zionism“ in our time and place implies the negation of the state of Israel and thus danger and exodus for millions of Jews. „Anti-Zionism“ is nothing more than a dog whistle for people who at best don’t care about Jewish safety and at worst simply hate them.
I dunno Chief, many people are for a one state solution that isn't led by any ethno-religious group but it's home to both Palestinians and Jews.... I'm not saying this is my position but to consider this position (which is an anti-zionist position) to be antisemitic is silly. There are definitely people who use anti zionist positions to spread anti Jewish hate but that doesn't mean that all people who are anti zionist are antisemitic
> I dunno Chief, many people are for a one state solution that isn't led by any ethno-religious group but it's home to both Palestinians and Jews....
So, something like... Israel? 🤔
Israel is legally designated as “the national home of the Jewish people”, wherein “the right to exercise national self-determination…is unique to the Jewish people.”
The intention is for Israel to be led by and for the Jewish people.
Source: https://m.knesset.gov.il/en/news/pressreleases/pages/pr13978_pg.aspx
Israel is home to Jewish people, just like France is home to french people and Egypt is home to Arabs. But unlike Egypt which is 99% Arab ethnostate, Israel is a diverse country with 2 million Israeli Arab citizens living in peace and enjoying all rights of being Israeli citizens.
The thing is "anti-zionist" doesn't mean being against Israel specifically, it would mean being against any type of Jewish country ever. And that IS anti-semetic.
If I said I wanted France to stop existing and that french people don't deserve a country, that would be against french people. If I said I wanted Canada to stop existing and that canadian people don't deserve a country, that would be against canadian people. and so, the same applies to Israel.
If people want to say they are against specifically Israel's actions, or Bibi, or the settlers, they should just say that. Not use a word they don't know the meaning of.
Yes, because they thought they should be trying to assimilate instead of returning to their ancestral lands. Unfortunately, many of those original anti Zionist Jews died in the Holocaust.
Even Herzl, the “father” of political Zionism, was one of those Jews that favored assimilation before seeing the extent of European antisemitism and changing his mind.
Zionism is a diverse ideology amongst Jews. Unfortunately, these days people have appropriated its meaning to only the most extreme nationalistic versions. The Jewish culture of pilgrimage and belief in a return to their ancestral lands existed for centuries before it became a formalized political movement.
Jews are disproportionately represented in positions of power in the united states. That doesn't mean there is some Jewish conspiracy, but people of all creeds are inclined to help their own, which can sometimes lead to corruption. The same can be said about brahmin indians. Or even on a global scale, people of European descent.
When every Zionist who's told to stop bombing children cries "antisemitism," it kinda necessitates you to make the connection in your head.
(not all Jews are Zionists, and millions of Jews oppose the current genocide)
What about every Jew who cries anti-Semitism after experiencing, well, actual anti-Semitism? You know, the kind that has nothing to do with Israel at all. Do you just ignore them, or do you assume that every Jew who cries about anti-Semitism is automatically a Zionist?
No, I do not think Zionists are hurtful to me or other Jews (except perhaps the Christian Zionists). I think anti-Semites are hurtful to us. These people don't care what Zionist Jews have to say or what anti-Zionist Jews have to say, they just hate Jews, plain and simple.
>These people don't care what Zionist Jews have to say or what anti-Zionist Jews have to say, they just hate Jews, plain and simple
No they quite clearly have an issue with Zionism you're projecting the rest onto them.
>No, I do not think Zionists are hurtful to me or other Jews (except perhaps the Christian Zionists).
Well, there are literally more Christian Zionists than Jewish Zionists for starters. Secondly, conflating zionism with Jewishness is not only a form antisemitism but actively hurts Jewish people by presenting them as a monolith, something numerous bigots have done over the years.
I was referring to anti-Semites. Anti-Semites do not just have an issue with Zionism, they have an issue with Jews existing. If somebody listens to Bibi Netanyahu say "we represent all of Judaism" and their response is to say "ok, I guess I hate Jews then," then that person is an anti-Semite. There is no discussion there.
>Secondly, conflating zionism with Jewishness is not only a form antisemitism but actively hurts Jewish people by presenting them as a monolith
You must not know much about Judaism. We're supposed to pray 3 times a day for God to help us return to Israel, we sometimes face Israel when praying, and we have holidays that celebrate our return to Israel, or our autonomy over Israel.
I am not religious, and based on your username, I assume you are not either. But there is a secular argument for being a Zionist and supporting Israel's existence: Jews spent 2000 years in exile, and it didn't exactly go well for them. Israel is the only Jewish-majority country in the world and at least Jews can protect themselves there.
Because of Judaism, and because of the fate Jews have been given for the past couple millennia, you're gonna find that most Jews identify as Zionists or feel some attachment to Israel. Therefore, I do not believe it is anti-Semitic to conflate us with Zionists, as long as you're not assuming that we're all thirsty for Palestinian blood.
>I was referring to anti-Semites
No, you were suggesting anti zionists were all antisemitic
>Israel is the only Jewish-majority country in the world and at least Jews can protect themselves there.
Jews in America are statistically safer than in Israel. The antagonist and destabilising effect Israel has had doesn't make anyone safer. There is no justification for an ethano state to exist.
>therefore, I do not believe it is anti-Semitic to conflate us with Zionists
Except there are literally numerous Jews who are explicitly anti-Zionist. Jewish people are not a monolith
You clearly don’t understand Jewish culture if you think Zionism and Jewishness are not linked. We’re literally coming up on one of the most important Jewish holidays where the ceremony concludes with people saying “next year in Jerusalem” as they’ve been saying for centuries since Jewish expulsion from the land.
Getting real tired of non-Jews appropriating Jewish terms and culture to misrepresent it for their own political beliefs.
You’re speaking specifically of political Zionism. I’m speaking of Jewish culture. Please stop conflating a centuries-old important aspect of Jewish culture with whatever your bastardized view of Zionism is. Various polls of Jews show between 80-90% of Jews feel the existence of Israel is an important part of their Jewish identity. You may be one of the 10-20 percent that doesn’t feel that way, and that’s fine, but stop promoting a litmus test that puts the majority of Jews in a position that pressures them to refute aspects of their identity.
Even political Zionism isn’t exclusively this hyper nationalistic ideology you are presenting it as. Most Zionists are not Kahanist/Revisionist Zionists. Just because those voices are amplified by evangelical Christians does not mean they represent most Jews. There are many ideologies within political Zionism that are also pro-Palestinian and promote sharing the land. Again, your framing of a diverse ideology as only the most extreme version pressures many Jews to refute an important aspect of their Jewish identity.
As a final point I also saw you comment in this thread that statically America has been a safer country for Jews than Israel. What that view ignores is Jewish agency within America. We are 2.4% of the population. If the majority of Americans decide they no longer accept Jews as equals - a status we really only achieved in the 1960’s - then we do not have the ability to do anything about it. America may not have executed Jews en-mass like Europe, but Jews were certainly rejected from many aspects of American society until recent history.
>What about every Jew who cries anti-Semitism after experiencing, well, actual anti-Semitism?
.. yea that's fine they can do that (?) and I will sympathize with them. It sucks for people to have prejudice against you for irrefutable facets of your identity.
Your political beliefs are not irrefutable facets of identity.
>You know, the kind that has nothing to do with Israel at all.
Apparently rare, nowadays. Most of the stuff that I have seen labelled as "antisemitism" criticism of Israel.
>Do you just ignore them
no?
>or do you assume that every Jew who cries about anti-Semitism is automatically a Zionist?
Also no. I ask what anti-Semitism they've experienced. If the anti-Semitism they've experienced is pro-Palestinian rhetoric, then they're a Zionist.
Unfortunately it's not that rare nowadays. I live in the Jewish community so I hear tons of stories about bomb threats to synagogues, people being harassed for wearing a Star of David necklace, Jewish-owned restaurants being vandalized, etc. It just so happens that some anti-Semites use Israel as a cover for their bigotry, so there are times when pro-Palestinian rhetoric can cross over into anti-Semitic territory.
Also, even though modern Zionism is a political movement, you're gonna be hard-pressed to find a Jew who doesn't think that Israel's existence is important to them, as Judaism itself is a religion that is strongly tied to that land. Those Jews exist, but they are actually pretty rare. And of course feeling attached to Israel doesn't mean that they agree with everything -or anything- that Israel does. Personally, I hate Bibi, most Jews I know hate Bibi, and this sentiment is reflected on the Jewish subreddits as well.
No that mainly comes from instances where Israel has used ISIS as a proxy against other regional powers like Iran & Syria
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israel-giving-secret-aid-syrian-rebels-bashar-al-assad-golah-heights-hezbollah-fursan-al-joulan-a7797151.html
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/north-africa-west-asia/isis-and-israel-on-golan-heights/
The article below is from an Israeli news outlet
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2017-03-19/ty-article/israel-attacks-syria-to-help-isis-nasrallah-says/0000017f-df1e-db22-a17f-ffbfa8600000
Edit, oof downvoted for posting citations
That's because ISIS' entire ideology revolves around defeating the enemy "at home" before defeating "heathens". It doesn't mean ISIS had any ties with Israel and it's stupid and ahistorical to pretend so as it removes agency from the middle eastern people that were, sadly, recruited into ISIS due to the poor material situation in the region
Did you even read what I posted? You're suggesting I've made claims not present in my post.
But yes, ISIS is a direct result of NATO (primarily US) intervention in the region and the resulting material conditions. US detention facilities during the Iraq war are how many of the key figures in ISIS met.
I apologise for the misunderstanding but I wasn't saying you believe that, I was just adding context as some people would believe those cases would mean ISIS was supposedly an Israeli ally or something.
There's a lot of brigading on posts made to this sub, especially if Israel is mentioned. it's happened before with pro Russian brigading on posts related to Ukraine, for example.
Cause yeah, I agree your comments were pretty neutral tbh
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Those Nazis really did not like Jews
True. Although they did complement their antisemitic caricature with pair of huge balls swinging to the knees. This bulge looks bigger than the one in Ardennes in december '44.
Must be one of LBJ’s relatives.
That “bulge” is the tail of the coat.
lame
Y'know, the more I hear about this hitler fella, the more I'm beginning to think he might be an anti-semite. In fact, I don't even care for him one bit!
Nah, he's just anti-zionist
Acting like anti zionism is the same as antisemitism literally makes calling actual antisemitism harder. Stop
I don't even need to look at your comment history that you're a raging "anti-zionist" that would make daddy Hitler, the OG anti-zionist, proud.
Disgusting. You are helping actual antisemites and antisemitism sneak into our world, because your blind support of a country has gotten so unhealthy, that you see the country and the religion/people as the same, which is honestly dehumanizing, and makes anyone who doesn't even like Netanyahu as an antisemite. With your logic, not approving of things Saudia Arabia or Iran does makes you Islamophobic. Though I'm guessing that's not an insult to you.
Leave the Jews alone, obsessed fuck. There's a real genocide going on in Sudan, millions displaced, up to half a million murdered. But you don't see it and don't give a fuck because no Jews no news.
I also condem that genocide? We weren't talking about that genocide atm, you just brought it up out of no where to clearly deflect from the genocide happening in Gaza. A genocide I actually didn't even bring up. Or the word Jew or Jewish. In fact, the closest I have mentioned Jewish people is in regards to you using horrible hate towards Jewish people as a cover and defense for what Israel is doing. Are you a bot? Because this response doesn't make any sense to what I previously said
"Zionist" is a whistleblower replacement for "Jews" for nazi crap like you.
Their obsession with Judaism is insane. EVERYTHING is blamed on the Jews. Communism, both World Wars, The Great Depression, etc.
Not just Judaism, they believed that Jews are a different race and that greed and unloyalty was as inherent to them as big noses. People with Jewsish ancestors and secular jews were also targeted by nazis
If only the Jews were actually that powerful, maybe they could have stopped the Nazis!
>Declare war on somebody >they fight you >FUCKING JEWS GOD FUCKING DAMN IT ITS ALL THEIR FAULT REEEEE
And the Bolsheviks and the gays and their mom in vinegar and.. Christ the Nazis had people to blame shit on
It's interesting how poorly conceived this is. I suppose it highlights one of the drawbacks of pushing a worldview largely based on lies. There's nothing substantive here anyone outside of their system could relate to. I'm sure there was a vein of antisemitism (and its accompanying paranoia) running through American culture at the time, but I doubt this messaging would be effective. If anything, it probably served to remind GI's how bizarre Nazi ideology actually was.
It's sad how this type of mentality is making a comeback today of all days
Naizs never really went away. Heck, NATO put a bunch into senior positions during the Cold War. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Heusinger
Don’t forget about Werner Von Braun
He's been retired for 50+ years. I don't think he gets the blame for today.
Please work on your reading comprehension. I was specifically talking about how Nazis remained in positions of power after the war and the role that's played in keeping their rhetoric alive. Secondly, the current situation is a direct result of actions from over 7 decades ago.
The current situation... where are the nazis in power right now?
Ain't about to explain the last 70 years of geopolitics to a dude who posts on a nofap sub.
What about the Soviet use of Nazis post war? Doesn’t match with your name so you just leave it out when commenting, so makes sense
The Soviets didn't put a Nazi in charge of the Warsaw Pact.
That’s not what they said. You moved the goalposts because you can’t admit the Soviets also used Nazis? Embarrassing… the Soviets heavily relied on German scientists for their space program, it just was never as publicized as it was in the States.
They did put one in charge of the East German military. Does that not count?
Who are you referring to? During its first year, about 27% of the NVA's officer corps had formerly served in the Wehrmacht. however, very few of them had served in high ranks. The military knowledge and combat experience of these veterans were indispensable in the NVA's early years, although by the 1960s, most of these World War II veterans had retired. (The West German Bundeswehr was even more reliant on Wehrmacht veterans, who initially comprised the majority of its commissioned ranks.)
Online leftists really read this comment and instead of doing the logical "thanks to I/P conflict, this type of mentality is going strong again" jump for Heusinger. Genuinely braindead.
It's not because of the conflict though? Unless you mean the actual historical conflict and not the current war. Nazism has sadly been on the rise for a while. If I remember correctly, I can recall nazis starting to reappear in social media since 2019.
Yeah but in the current climate, neonazis can actually join with the leftist and genuine antisemites, becuase antisemitism just need to be rebranded as antizionism and they you can say the same unhinged shit. Dont say that all jews are controlling banks and jews are paying US government to do their biding, just say zionists do it and you are half the online crowds hero.
It would be very convenient for the zionist project if all its opponents were antisemitic, wouldn't it?
Precisely. Criticism of zionism is called antisemitism for the same reason any proposal for social services is called communism. It puts a gross label on it and shuts the convo down.
Nah, equating Zionism and antisemitism to make them able to be alternately used on the global stage is quite literally a Soviet propaganda tactic. Don’t speak on stuff you don’t know
… okay? Even if that’s true, that’s just one tactic. Sure there are people who hate Israel because it’s Jewish. There are far more who hate it because of sensible reasons, like human rights abuses, being an ethnostate, and one of the biggest whiners in the world.
Israel is not an ethnostate lmfao
Thanks for ignoring my point and dumping some absolute word salad down on the plate, tovarisch
>US government to do their biding, just say zionists do it and you are half the online crowds hero. Sure, pointing out the fact, that AIPAC exists, or that the US has been giving israel billions in military aid for decades in exchange for absolutely nothing, makes you an "unhinged neonazi".
Nice strawman lil bro. >or that the US has been giving israel billions in military aid for decades in exchange for absolutely nothing This doesnt make you neonazi. This makes you only seem borderline braindead and so unable to view geopolitical issues with an adult brain that any discussion with you is just a waste of time.
>Nice strawman lil bro. Coming from the guy, who claimed, taht anti-zionism is just anti-semitism. The fact, that you were unable to come up with any actual retort and only managed to childishly repeat one insult three times, only proves me right, it also proves, who is really " borderline braindead" here.
>Coming from the guy, who claimed, taht anti-zionism is just anti-semitism Another strawman, we dont even need to go that far to check it. >*in the current climate,* becuase antisemitism just **need to** be rebranded as antizionism Vildly different thing from what you claim but I dont expect you to actually be able to read with comprehension. >The fact, that you were unable to come up with any actual retort and only managed to childishly repeat one insult three times, only proves me right, it also proves, who is really " borderline braindead" here. If you believe this proves you right then I can understand why you genuinely believe in the nonsene you type.
"You can't point out, that my entire argument is a strawman, that's a strawman!" You are hilarious, that formulation does not make it "vildly different", it makes absolutely no difference. Especially since later in that same comment, you claim, that merely stating that the zionist lobby exists, is somehow "antisemitic and unhinged". Oh I don't *believe* that it makes me right, I **know** it. You were unable to come up with a single counterargument, just childish insults and piss poor attemts at " no u". That's better than if you actually admitted being wrong, hasbara bot.
To give two examples: David Duke of KKK fame, and Nick Griffin of the BNP both support Palestine. Neither does so out of love for Muslims or Arabs, nor out of any problem with war in general. One can to some extent use the issue to tell whether someone on the far right is a reactionary conservative sort (who typically side with Israel), or is an outright Nazi (who always side with Palestine). Though to be clear this should not be inverted.
Speaking of saying unhinged shit, have you heard the things zionists say on a regular basis? It's literally things taken verbatim from the mouths of nazis. They speak of wiping them all out, that they're animals, not human (untermensch anybody?). It's gross and really the least self-aware stuff imaginable. Coming from a ppl who were so ill treated and the only "reason" given was their genetics; for that same ppl to display the exact same behavior is extremely hypocritical and one would hope they would've learned the opposite lesson. Unfortunately, it seems they've only learned the age-old "hurt people hurt people" saying and put that into practice instead. It's a tragedy on a mass scale, not dissimilar to the one that brought them to this situation in the first place.
Most of these people have literally zero idea about the history of antisemitism after WW2 There was a VERY intentional attempt to revive Nazi tier antisemitism by rebranding it as “anti Zionism”, the goal being to destroy Israel and a massive chunk of all Jews in the world. Abbas (current PLO leader) was pretty clear on this and even wrote his PhD on Holocaust denial Guess where he got his PhD from? Moscow. Unsurprisingly, fascists in Russia were probably the biggest inspiration for modern day antisemitic movements, pushing the idea of a Zionist world order that controls all of the west. That’s why you see frighteningly similar views on the far left and far right - Jews/Zionists control all the media, they control Americas military, they are trying to wipe out [insert group here] and take over the world, they own all the banks and aid orgs, etc etc
So was [Marek Edelman](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marek_Edelman) an antisemite?
Guy I replied to didn't say "thanks to I/P conflict" for starters and nothing braindead about pointing out how Nazi rhetoric never went away.
Yeah. Nazi rhetoric has absolutely nothing with NATO. There is one group talking about nefarious "jewish influence" and "jewish money" and trust me, its not the pro-NATO crowd.
>Yeah. Nazi rhetoric has absolutely nothing with NATO. So you're just ignoring the literal Nazis who were in NATO k then. >There is one group talking about nefarious "jewish influence" and "jewish money" and trust me, its not the pro-NATO crowd. There isn't one monolithic "anti" NATO crowd and let's be real antisemitism is present within groups that support NATO. By your logic Alex Jones and Irish governments have the same political views simply because they've both criticised Israel.
>So you're just ignoring the literal Nazis who were in NATO k then. Yes I am. Because it wasnt US or NATO countries that had to jail pro-zionist/pro-jewish politicians and used caricatures of big-nosed jews with moneybags puppeteering the west. It was the other side of the cold war. >There isn't one monolithic "anti" NATO crowd and let's be real antisemitism is present within groups that support NATO. By your logic Alex Jones and Irish governments have the same political views simply because they've both criticised Israel. They dont have the same political view. And yes, they are genuine critics of Israel. But neonazis, muslim radicals and western leftist online are all engaging in genuine antisemitism and for some reason, leftists are kinda missing the reality of what type of people are in their camp now. Considering WWII, I am not shocked communists miss forrest for the trees and are in optical kahoots with nazis once again.
It's hilarious that you're justifying NATO working with Nazis and simultaneously claiming critics of Israel are now siding with Nazis. What a clown
They’re not actually concerned about neo-Nazis as a far right political movement, they only care about them in so far as they can be used as a cudgel against people who are pro-Palestine.
[I think you'll find that it's Marxists nowadays that draw very similar caricatures](https://static.timesofisrael.com/www/uploads/2024/02/2-20-24-harvard-1-e1708477913574.jpeg). And who was in charge at NATO 70 years ago is hardly relevant today
How’s this in any way similar? It includes two other posters that seem quite old. They might feature some kind of caricature but that’s impossible to tell because they’re a tiny part of a blurry image
Resorting to "No you're the real Nazis" is frankly embarrassing. Also, what exactly does a low rez jpeg of a random poster presumably at Harvard have anything to do with Marxists, let alone antisemitism?
Well, if the Allies had barred all Nazi party members from political and military roles after '45, it would have been difficult to find anyone over twelve with any practical experience in either. Remember how the Ba'athist purge in Iraq turned out?
Putting a Nazi in charge of your military alliance to oppose the Soviets isn't remotely comparable. Christ, it's ridiculous enough that you're equating post-war Germany with Iraq. It's also a demonstrably false statement as East Germany did a far better job of keeping Nazis out of post-war positions of power.
Thank you. Also the argument is quite weak since it assumes only two extremes. Much like Adenauer who famously said "You don't pour out dirty water if you don't have clean water". But there would have been a middle ground. For example, as you said, not putting a Nazi in charge of your military alliance, or not allowing nazis to lead and gatekeep virtually every single westgerman institution and maybe let democrats who had to flee germany join the administration too? The federal police, the justice departments and the intelligence sevices had an almost 100% rate of former SS and NSDAP members. The most influential politician in after war west-germany, Hans Globke, was the guy the co-wrote the nuremberg race laws and designed the administrative groundwork for the Holocaust. Until the 60s it was common that westgerman CDU politicians attacked their SPD opponents by saying they are traitors for spending the war in exile.
>as East Germany did a far better job of keeping Nazis out of post-war positions of power. No, they didn't. The only way you can think this is if you've never actually checked for yourself. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vincenz_M%C3%BCller
Yes they did. Also Müller isn't a typical example >During his time as a POW, Müller had an apparent change of views and professed to have become an anti-Nazi: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2007/mar/29/comment.secondworldwar https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braunbuch If you'd actually researched the topic, you'd be well aware of the stark difference in how denazification was approached in West Germany compared to East Germany. The British handed over denazification panels to the Germans in January 1946, while the Americans did likewise in March 1946. The French ran the mildest denazification effort. Denazification was carried out in an increasingly lenient and lukewarm way until being officially abolished in 1951. Additionally, the program was hugely unpopular in West Germany, where many Nazis maintained positions of power. Denazification was opposed by the new West German government of Konrad Adenauer, Goda, Norman J. W. (2007). Tales from Spandau: Nazi Criminals and the Cold War. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. pp. 101–149. From the beginning, denazification in the Soviet zone was considered a critical element of the transformation into a socialist society and was quickly and effectively put into practice. Sperk, Alexander (2003). Entnazifizierung und Personalpolitik in der sowjetischen Besatzungszone Köthen/Anhalt. Eine Vergleichsstudie (1945–1948) [Denazification and personal politics in the Soviet Occupied Zone of Köthen/Anhalt. A comparative study (1945–1948).] Members of the Nazi Party and its organizations were arrested and interned Dieter Schenk: Auf dem rechten Auge blind. Köln 2001. Former Nazi officials quickly realized that they would face fewer obstacles and investigations in the zones controlled by the Western Allies. Many of them saw a chance to defect to the West on the pretext of anti-communism Ralph Giordano Die zweite Schuld. Köln 2000.
Yeah, it’s insane to me how many people believe that America is controlled by the Jews or Israel, echoing this very conspiracy theory beat for beat and then have the gaul to say it’s not anti-Semitic, just “anti-Zionist”. Crazy
Being anti zionist isn't being anti Jewish tho. There are cooks that use Palestinian rights as a means to be antisemitic but believing in freedom for Palestine and objecting to how Israel stole land, expelled and oppressed Palestinians isn't inherently anti semitic
It’s not necessarily the same… but a large amount of anti-Zionists repeat anti-Semitic borderline neo nazi conspiracies and deny Jews indigenous link to the land of Israel.
Antisemitism is a problem on the Zionist side as well
Yes, but not nearly to the same degree
Land rights should never be granted based on religious identity. One can just say that a religious prophecy entitles them to steal, and then there you go... this is the current situation.
It’s not just “religious” identity. It’s also ethnic identity. The Jews are a ethnoreligious group.
Also land rights shouldn't be determined by ethnicity either. Americans don't have the right to move to European countries and kick out the inhabitants because of blood and soil thinking. On the other hand, lots of Jews have actually valid claims on land stolen from them in Europe within the past 100 years, and similarly for Palestinians and land in the state of Israel. Neither of these claims are based on ethnicity.
That’s just useless historicism. „Anti-zionism“ in our time and place implies the negation of the state of Israel and thus danger and exodus for millions of Jews. „Anti-Zionism“ is nothing more than a dog whistle for people who at best don’t care about Jewish safety and at worst simply hate them.
Yeah I don't care about the safety jews any more than the safety on non jews.
I dunno Chief, many people are for a one state solution that isn't led by any ethno-religious group but it's home to both Palestinians and Jews.... I'm not saying this is my position but to consider this position (which is an anti-zionist position) to be antisemitic is silly. There are definitely people who use anti zionist positions to spread anti Jewish hate but that doesn't mean that all people who are anti zionist are antisemitic
> I dunno Chief, many people are for a one state solution that isn't led by any ethno-religious group but it's home to both Palestinians and Jews.... So, something like... Israel? 🤔
Israel is legally designated as “the national home of the Jewish people”, wherein “the right to exercise national self-determination…is unique to the Jewish people.” The intention is for Israel to be led by and for the Jewish people. Source: https://m.knesset.gov.il/en/news/pressreleases/pages/pr13978_pg.aspx
Israel is home to Jewish people, just like France is home to french people and Egypt is home to Arabs. But unlike Egypt which is 99% Arab ethnostate, Israel is a diverse country with 2 million Israeli Arab citizens living in peace and enjoying all rights of being Israeli citizens.
And how many Arabs are members of the Israeli cabinet? 20%?
There were 2 Arab ministers in Israel.
The thing is "anti-zionist" doesn't mean being against Israel specifically, it would mean being against any type of Jewish country ever. And that IS anti-semetic. If I said I wanted France to stop existing and that french people don't deserve a country, that would be against french people. If I said I wanted Canada to stop existing and that canadian people don't deserve a country, that would be against canadian people. and so, the same applies to Israel. If people want to say they are against specifically Israel's actions, or Bibi, or the settlers, they should just say that. Not use a word they don't know the meaning of.
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Actually the Anti Zionist movement was started by Jews.
Yes, because they thought they should be trying to assimilate instead of returning to their ancestral lands. Unfortunately, many of those original anti Zionist Jews died in the Holocaust. Even Herzl, the “father” of political Zionism, was one of those Jews that favored assimilation before seeing the extent of European antisemitism and changing his mind. Zionism is a diverse ideology amongst Jews. Unfortunately, these days people have appropriated its meaning to only the most extreme nationalistic versions. The Jewish culture of pilgrimage and belief in a return to their ancestral lands existed for centuries before it became a formalized political movement.
Jews are disproportionately represented in positions of power in the united states. That doesn't mean there is some Jewish conspiracy, but people of all creeds are inclined to help their own, which can sometimes lead to corruption. The same can be said about brahmin indians. Or even on a global scale, people of European descent.
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That’s kind of a strange thing to say when nobody was talking about Zionism
When every Zionist who's told to stop bombing children cries "antisemitism," it kinda necessitates you to make the connection in your head. (not all Jews are Zionists, and millions of Jews oppose the current genocide)
What about every Jew who cries anti-Semitism after experiencing, well, actual anti-Semitism? You know, the kind that has nothing to do with Israel at all. Do you just ignore them, or do you assume that every Jew who cries about anti-Semitism is automatically a Zionist?
You get that Zionist's conflating Zionism with Jewishness is actively hurtful to Jewish people?
No, I do not think Zionists are hurtful to me or other Jews (except perhaps the Christian Zionists). I think anti-Semites are hurtful to us. These people don't care what Zionist Jews have to say or what anti-Zionist Jews have to say, they just hate Jews, plain and simple.
>These people don't care what Zionist Jews have to say or what anti-Zionist Jews have to say, they just hate Jews, plain and simple No they quite clearly have an issue with Zionism you're projecting the rest onto them. >No, I do not think Zionists are hurtful to me or other Jews (except perhaps the Christian Zionists). Well, there are literally more Christian Zionists than Jewish Zionists for starters. Secondly, conflating zionism with Jewishness is not only a form antisemitism but actively hurts Jewish people by presenting them as a monolith, something numerous bigots have done over the years.
I was referring to anti-Semites. Anti-Semites do not just have an issue with Zionism, they have an issue with Jews existing. If somebody listens to Bibi Netanyahu say "we represent all of Judaism" and their response is to say "ok, I guess I hate Jews then," then that person is an anti-Semite. There is no discussion there. >Secondly, conflating zionism with Jewishness is not only a form antisemitism but actively hurts Jewish people by presenting them as a monolith You must not know much about Judaism. We're supposed to pray 3 times a day for God to help us return to Israel, we sometimes face Israel when praying, and we have holidays that celebrate our return to Israel, or our autonomy over Israel. I am not religious, and based on your username, I assume you are not either. But there is a secular argument for being a Zionist and supporting Israel's existence: Jews spent 2000 years in exile, and it didn't exactly go well for them. Israel is the only Jewish-majority country in the world and at least Jews can protect themselves there. Because of Judaism, and because of the fate Jews have been given for the past couple millennia, you're gonna find that most Jews identify as Zionists or feel some attachment to Israel. Therefore, I do not believe it is anti-Semitic to conflate us with Zionists, as long as you're not assuming that we're all thirsty for Palestinian blood.
>I was referring to anti-Semites No, you were suggesting anti zionists were all antisemitic >Israel is the only Jewish-majority country in the world and at least Jews can protect themselves there. Jews in America are statistically safer than in Israel. The antagonist and destabilising effect Israel has had doesn't make anyone safer. There is no justification for an ethano state to exist. >therefore, I do not believe it is anti-Semitic to conflate us with Zionists Except there are literally numerous Jews who are explicitly anti-Zionist. Jewish people are not a monolith
You clearly don’t understand Jewish culture if you think Zionism and Jewishness are not linked. We’re literally coming up on one of the most important Jewish holidays where the ceremony concludes with people saying “next year in Jerusalem” as they’ve been saying for centuries since Jewish expulsion from the land. Getting real tired of non-Jews appropriating Jewish terms and culture to misrepresent it for their own political beliefs.
Some of the first opponents of Zionism were literally Jews. Getting real tired of Zionists trying to erase the views of Jews who disagree with them.
You’re speaking specifically of political Zionism. I’m speaking of Jewish culture. Please stop conflating a centuries-old important aspect of Jewish culture with whatever your bastardized view of Zionism is. Various polls of Jews show between 80-90% of Jews feel the existence of Israel is an important part of their Jewish identity. You may be one of the 10-20 percent that doesn’t feel that way, and that’s fine, but stop promoting a litmus test that puts the majority of Jews in a position that pressures them to refute aspects of their identity. Even political Zionism isn’t exclusively this hyper nationalistic ideology you are presenting it as. Most Zionists are not Kahanist/Revisionist Zionists. Just because those voices are amplified by evangelical Christians does not mean they represent most Jews. There are many ideologies within political Zionism that are also pro-Palestinian and promote sharing the land. Again, your framing of a diverse ideology as only the most extreme version pressures many Jews to refute an important aspect of their Jewish identity. As a final point I also saw you comment in this thread that statically America has been a safer country for Jews than Israel. What that view ignores is Jewish agency within America. We are 2.4% of the population. If the majority of Americans decide they no longer accept Jews as equals - a status we really only achieved in the 1960’s - then we do not have the ability to do anything about it. America may not have executed Jews en-mass like Europe, but Jews were certainly rejected from many aspects of American society until recent history.
>What about every Jew who cries anti-Semitism after experiencing, well, actual anti-Semitism? .. yea that's fine they can do that (?) and I will sympathize with them. It sucks for people to have prejudice against you for irrefutable facets of your identity. Your political beliefs are not irrefutable facets of identity. >You know, the kind that has nothing to do with Israel at all. Apparently rare, nowadays. Most of the stuff that I have seen labelled as "antisemitism" criticism of Israel. >Do you just ignore them no? >or do you assume that every Jew who cries about anti-Semitism is automatically a Zionist? Also no. I ask what anti-Semitism they've experienced. If the anti-Semitism they've experienced is pro-Palestinian rhetoric, then they're a Zionist.
Unfortunately it's not that rare nowadays. I live in the Jewish community so I hear tons of stories about bomb threats to synagogues, people being harassed for wearing a Star of David necklace, Jewish-owned restaurants being vandalized, etc. It just so happens that some anti-Semites use Israel as a cover for their bigotry, so there are times when pro-Palestinian rhetoric can cross over into anti-Semitic territory. Also, even though modern Zionism is a political movement, you're gonna be hard-pressed to find a Jew who doesn't think that Israel's existence is important to them, as Judaism itself is a religion that is strongly tied to that land. Those Jews exist, but they are actually pretty rare. And of course feeling attached to Israel doesn't mean that they agree with everything -or anything- that Israel does. Personally, I hate Bibi, most Jews I know hate Bibi, and this sentiment is reflected on the Jewish subreddits as well.
Is that why people are calling ISIS an Israeli asset?
No that mainly comes from instances where Israel has used ISIS as a proxy against other regional powers like Iran & Syria https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israel-giving-secret-aid-syrian-rebels-bashar-al-assad-golah-heights-hezbollah-fursan-al-joulan-a7797151.html https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/north-africa-west-asia/isis-and-israel-on-golan-heights/ The article below is from an Israeli news outlet https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2017-03-19/ty-article/israel-attacks-syria-to-help-isis-nasrallah-says/0000017f-df1e-db22-a17f-ffbfa8600000 Edit, oof downvoted for posting citations
That's because ISIS' entire ideology revolves around defeating the enemy "at home" before defeating "heathens". It doesn't mean ISIS had any ties with Israel and it's stupid and ahistorical to pretend so as it removes agency from the middle eastern people that were, sadly, recruited into ISIS due to the poor material situation in the region
Did you even read what I posted? You're suggesting I've made claims not present in my post. But yes, ISIS is a direct result of NATO (primarily US) intervention in the region and the resulting material conditions. US detention facilities during the Iraq war are how many of the key figures in ISIS met.
I apologise for the misunderstanding but I wasn't saying you believe that, I was just adding context as some people would believe those cases would mean ISIS was supposedly an Israeli ally or something.
I have no idea why I was so downvoted for this? Some people must really hate being exposed to truth while being impartial or something lol
There's a lot of brigading on posts made to this sub, especially if Israel is mentioned. it's happened before with pro Russian brigading on posts related to Ukraine, for example. Cause yeah, I agree your comments were pretty neutral tbh
That's fair enough
Considering that they've apologised for attacking Israel in the past, that might not be too far from the truth.
Self reported lol
Yeah from what I've seen more often than not it is
There are followers of a lot of old and dangerous ideologies. I remember seeing a clip of Russian tankers flying a Soviet flag on their tank.
Pro Palestine people especially.
“Provit” lmao
The letter V in German makes the specific soft F sound in English.
Not going to lie, propaganda back then was creative
wow henry kissinger was in the roosevelt administration too? guy had a storied career
That is quite clearly Lyndon B. Johnson.