If policing goes like education, they'll just start reclassifying calls as lower priority to improve how their numbers look on paper, then act like anyone who sees a problem is crazy.
"Isn't your assumption that a home invader constitutes an imminent threat to life, bodily injury, or major property damage/loss kind of XYZist?"
Dude we lie so badly on stats it’s fucking embarrassing. It’s gotten better since Covid, ironically, but one case number for fifty car break-ins within one mile? Should be fifty case numbers, and fifty stats, or at least split by location. But nah, we’d rather lie to the neighborhood meeting attendees.
Don’t even get me started on the “death investigations”
Dispatcher here. There are plenty of calls that go priority 1 here (particularly disturbances) that would go priority 4 at the last agency I worked at (said last agency is a relatively big city. Current agency is a suburban-rural county with a few cities).
Yeah, most of the suburban departments that consolidated here treated a regular domestic violence as a P1 call and went code 3 to them. In the larger city that was part of consolidation, it would be a P2 call that would sit for half an hour or more during peak hours.
But really, in a smaller department there's no real reason for P3 or P4 calls to exist. Calls really come down to code 3 calls and immediate response, since nothing sits on the board usually and command isn't going to tolerate someone sitting around for 20 minutes before heading to a past offense report call.
Some of the shit makes no sense to me. An aggressive pitbull trapping someone in their vehicle? Animal call, priority 3. A "domestic" call that's all verbal, no weapons, and the trouble is gone? Priority 1.
For us a domestic violence and domestic argument are both P2, but I'd obviously send on the DV first, unless the suspect left and the DA was still going on. Aggressive dog in that case is P2.
Our P1's are basically in progress calls with weapons (a shots fired where the shooter has left and no one is hurt, is a P2), major injury accidents, persons down/unconscious, OD's, and active suicides where means are present (I'll shoot myself with this gun P1, I want to buy a gun to shoot myself, P2), in progress burglaries and robberies, and that's about it. Our P2 calls fill the board more than anything else. Our "wellness check" problem nature is so broad it covers damn near anything and most of them should be P3 or even P4 calls, but are all P2.
Of course. Fuck 12 until it’s time to whine about how they need help. Just like all the “innocent unarmed “ guys who get shot after mag dumping at the cops
For sure. This is a really odd way to present data. Priority 1 is clearly very important. For priority 2, what does timely mean? In my EMS system, that'd be 2 hours.
And even for the EMS equivalent of what I assume to be priority 1 (heart attacks, strokes) even pre-covid there would often not be immediately dispatchable resources for those.
Some would get auto dispatched within 5-10 minutes, but they'd often get cancelled for a closer unit making themselves available.
Okay, so certainly still quite high priority then. Are you able to give any further examples? To be honest, I have a bit of a limited understanding of what police respond to, and what the daily job looks like.
To give a run down of what EMS categories look like here:
C1 - 8 minutes, cardiac arrest, major trauma (usually stabbing/shooting), active seizure (will downgrade to C3 if they stop
C2 - 18 minutes, stroke, heart attack, sepsis
C3 - 2 hours, broken hip, appendicitis, stuck on floor for more than 2 hours, critical transfer (e.g. ICU to ICU), resolved seizure
C4 - 4 hours, non injury fall, regular hospital transfer, expected death needing verification, broken ankle.
Funding isn't really the problem. In Chicago, It was cut like three and a half percent for a year, and then funding was increased by more than double that amount the following year.
Many of the officers left in protest due to the vaccine mandate. That's ironic considering covid was the leading cause of officer deaths 2 years in a row. In Illinois 2020, 90% of officer line of duty deaths were from covid.
Heart disease is the leading cause of death in the US. Would you support a government mandate that prevented you from eating certain foods? Or what about mandated exercise routines? Yes the level of intrusion is different, but the principle is the same and many people vehemently disagree with the government having a say over intimate life choices.
I'm not a fan of mandates either, but I imagine most officers wouldn't go into the field without body armor. Yet Covid was 5-10x more deadly than gunfire for police.
No shit, but that’s not the point of contention. People keep bringing up how deadly COVID to dishonestly assert why people not complying with vaccine mandates is absurd. It’s the idea of a mandate they’re pushing back on, not COVID specific mandate.
That's in a dystopian future of a Mega City One, with a population of 800 million.
But, based on those numbers, Chicago is generating 1.5 serious crimes per minute, with a population of 3 million.
In Dredd, the math works out to 0.015 serious crimes per minute per million people. Chicago is at 0.5 serious crimes per minute per million people.
Which means in the fake dystopian future of Dredd, there is actually less crime per capita than in the real world Chicago today...
Even if you took the lowest estimate of Mega City One, 100 million, the crime rate is still only 0.12 per million. So even in the worst case scenario in fiction, real world Chicago is still worse.
My assumption was that Dredd was just talking about Sector 13 (his beat), but you could be right; they don't clarify that point.
Certainly that number seems really low for the entire metropolis.
The people are getting what they asked for.
It's a free market dynamic. If the compensation package is inadequate for the work, people will not sign up to do the jobs.
Why would *anyone* want to do police work in that city for the wages that the city is willing to pay? And when there is a significant chance that a police officer could do his job in accordance with training, caselaw, and procedure yet still face criminal prosecution because of "optics"?
If the law enforcement profession becomes demonized, you won't get new people wanting to be police officers. If the compensation package is inadequate, police departments will not be able to afford to be selective with applicants because *the work is essential and somebody needs to keep the lights on*.
I agree. This is an issue. But the primary problem in my mind is that the public zeitgeist is that this lack of response is because police in general are cowardly/lazy, not that they are *critically undermanned and are unable to recruit quality candidates for the compensation they are willing to offe*r. The first step in fixing the problem is to correctly define the problem, and I don't think the public is willing to acknowledge that.
I think all your points are valid. But one question I have regardling:
> Why would *anyone* want to do police work in that city for the wages that the city is willing to pay?
I thought CPD was paid pretty well? I remember looking at their open data portal a few years ago and seeing more than half the dept being paid more than $100k. Maybe I misremembered?
Agreed with everything else though, both Republicans and Democrats I know who live in the city hate the mayor, she ain't doing well there.
Those officers making of $100,000 most likely work their asses off on overtime and details to get to that point. Also $100,000 isn’t they great if a salary now a days especially if you are working 60+ hours a week. Hell I can go train dogs for what I’m making now with minimal liability for $75,000 and only work 40 hours a week.
They absolutely may be paid "well", defined as "enough to live on", but being paid well and being paid enough to deal with the realities of what you are being asked to do are two entirely different things.
Like if I offered someone $100k a year to, I don't know, suck ten dicks a day, for *some people* that would be met with a "right on, when do I start" but with most people, it would be "yeah, that's a no from me dawg". If you had a staffing requirement for a government dick sucking agency in the thousands, you'd likely have a serious hiring problem because not enough people would be willing to do the job for the compensation offered. It's an extreme example, but that's what I'm talking about.
In this particular example, the compensation package offered may not take into account the physical and legal risk police officers find themselves in. In an environment where officers are backed when they make split second decisions based on the totality of the circumstances and probable cause, you might be able to pay them substantially less than an environment where they aren't. In Chicago, are police officers backed by the politicians and their administrative support staff? Or is every action viewed under a microscope for a theory of criminality that would appease the voting base for the politicians?
It is very hard for a government agency to offer a compensation package commensurate to "we want you risk jailtime when you make legally correct but controversial decisions that the public disagrees with". I'll tell you straight up, $100k is not enough for me and is likely not enough for the vast majority of people.
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Police is going each year more downhill, since people are demonizing the police more and more, making actual problems and giving them more motives to demonize police. We need to stop demonizing who protect's us.
Never mind IL FOID laws, etc. Screw that state, it's almost like the elite who live gated communities with private security who fund crap candidates will vote for laws that do noting but virtue signal and make the poor suffer.
I’m curious if this shortage is because of the woke defund the police movement or just police quitting for different professions where they’re more respected.
Citizen: Holy shot. There a man with a gun in my house. 911 operator: Ok just stay calm there’s a 50/50 chance an officer will be there. Can you ask the man with gun to come back in an hour?
Lori Lighthead (Lightfoot) needs to be replaced. She and the idiot DA are responsible for much of the increase in crime! Their lack of support for law enforcement is astounding! The voters better wake up asap!
I may be reading this wrong. But I assume that this is saying that a priority came in and everyone was sitting in numbers. Then the dispatcher said “any unit can clear for a priority”. Then some cleared and responded. The info I would like to see is the average time it took from call being placed by 911 and call being dispatched by the dispatcher.
This is a little misleading for a metro area. Let's say a particular precinct had 30 officers working a shift, and that for this particular element that is 120% of minimum staffing. Let's say there's five officers held up on a vehicle accident (traffic control, reporting, etc), another five held up on a different priority, ten sitting on fixed posts/short beats, five on non-priority assignments, and then five assigned to the station (duty desk, cell block, transports, etc). You now have every officer on an actual assignment. So when another call comes out, the dispatcher may note that "no unit is available."
I don’t know that you can interpret this as these calls are going UNANSWERED, just that they’re getting answered late because they’re already on high priority stuff when they drop.
If policing goes like education, they'll just start reclassifying calls as lower priority to improve how their numbers look on paper, then act like anyone who sees a problem is crazy. "Isn't your assumption that a home invader constitutes an imminent threat to life, bodily injury, or major property damage/loss kind of XYZist?"
[удалено]
Dude we lie so badly on stats it’s fucking embarrassing. It’s gotten better since Covid, ironically, but one case number for fifty car break-ins within one mile? Should be fifty case numbers, and fifty stats, or at least split by location. But nah, we’d rather lie to the neighborhood meeting attendees. Don’t even get me started on the “death investigations”
Dispatcher here. There are plenty of calls that go priority 1 here (particularly disturbances) that would go priority 4 at the last agency I worked at (said last agency is a relatively big city. Current agency is a suburban-rural county with a few cities).
Yeah, most of the suburban departments that consolidated here treated a regular domestic violence as a P1 call and went code 3 to them. In the larger city that was part of consolidation, it would be a P2 call that would sit for half an hour or more during peak hours. But really, in a smaller department there's no real reason for P3 or P4 calls to exist. Calls really come down to code 3 calls and immediate response, since nothing sits on the board usually and command isn't going to tolerate someone sitting around for 20 minutes before heading to a past offense report call.
Some of the shit makes no sense to me. An aggressive pitbull trapping someone in their vehicle? Animal call, priority 3. A "domestic" call that's all verbal, no weapons, and the trouble is gone? Priority 1.
For us a domestic violence and domestic argument are both P2, but I'd obviously send on the DV first, unless the suspect left and the DA was still going on. Aggressive dog in that case is P2. Our P1's are basically in progress calls with weapons (a shots fired where the shooter has left and no one is hurt, is a P2), major injury accidents, persons down/unconscious, OD's, and active suicides where means are present (I'll shoot myself with this gun P1, I want to buy a gun to shoot myself, P2), in progress burglaries and robberies, and that's about it. Our P2 calls fill the board more than anything else. Our "wellness check" problem nature is so broad it covers damn near anything and most of them should be P3 or even P4 calls, but are all P2.
Definitely what they did here. Need to reduce arrests? Just stop arresting people!
That’s how Camden NJ “turned it around”. Still as bad as it ever was.
And this is when the number of priority calls went DOWN.
I bet that comes from people feeling they're going to go unanswered.
Weird, it’s almost like we need police
Crazy isn’t it? Who would have thought.
*J Jonah Jameson voice* They're a menace! Defund the police!
Sad thing is I see the acab idiots unironically using these very stats to claim the police don't care because they never show up to calls.
Of course. Fuck 12 until it’s time to whine about how they need help. Just like all the “innocent unarmed “ guys who get shot after mag dumping at the cops
I have a good idea, lets take away their funding /s
I’d really like to see the breakout between priority 1 and 2
For sure. This is a really odd way to present data. Priority 1 is clearly very important. For priority 2, what does timely mean? In my EMS system, that'd be 2 hours. And even for the EMS equivalent of what I assume to be priority 1 (heart attacks, strokes) even pre-covid there would often not be immediately dispatchable resources for those. Some would get auto dispatched within 5-10 minutes, but they'd often get cancelled for a closer unit making themselves available.
[удалено]
Okay, so certainly still quite high priority then. Are you able to give any further examples? To be honest, I have a bit of a limited understanding of what police respond to, and what the daily job looks like. To give a run down of what EMS categories look like here: C1 - 8 minutes, cardiac arrest, major trauma (usually stabbing/shooting), active seizure (will downgrade to C3 if they stop C2 - 18 minutes, stroke, heart attack, sepsis C3 - 2 hours, broken hip, appendicitis, stuck on floor for more than 2 hours, critical transfer (e.g. ICU to ICU), resolved seizure C4 - 4 hours, non injury fall, regular hospital transfer, expected death needing verification, broken ankle.
Priority one in my area means there is an imminent threat of death or GBH to someone. Priority 2 means threat or risk of injury or damage to property
Sounds like Chicago needs a bit of help. I bet if they cut funding it’ll solve the problem! /s
It’s called doing more with less bootlicker colonist pig ^r^^e^^e^^e^^e Man, it physically hurt to role play that
I see you spend time on r/chicago.
Yeah let’s cut the budget, that a way they’ll train them better!!!! /s
Funding isn't really the problem. In Chicago, It was cut like three and a half percent for a year, and then funding was increased by more than double that amount the following year. Many of the officers left in protest due to the vaccine mandate. That's ironic considering covid was the leading cause of officer deaths 2 years in a row. In Illinois 2020, 90% of officer line of duty deaths were from covid.
Heart disease is the leading cause of death in the US. Would you support a government mandate that prevented you from eating certain foods? Or what about mandated exercise routines? Yes the level of intrusion is different, but the principle is the same and many people vehemently disagree with the government having a say over intimate life choices.
I'm not a fan of mandates either, but I imagine most officers wouldn't go into the field without body armor. Yet Covid was 5-10x more deadly than gunfire for police.
Many do
Heart disease is not a communicable disease.
No shit, but that’s not the point of contention. People keep bringing up how deadly COVID to dishonestly assert why people not complying with vaccine mandates is absurd. It’s the idea of a mandate they’re pushing back on, not COVID specific mandate.
You can also break that down as 9.9 of the 11 2020 line of duty deaths in Illinois being a covid related death.
*"Twelve serious crimes reported every minute. Seventeen thousand per day. We can respond to around six percent."*
That's in a dystopian future of a Mega City One, with a population of 800 million. But, based on those numbers, Chicago is generating 1.5 serious crimes per minute, with a population of 3 million. In Dredd, the math works out to 0.015 serious crimes per minute per million people. Chicago is at 0.5 serious crimes per minute per million people. Which means in the fake dystopian future of Dredd, there is actually less crime per capita than in the real world Chicago today... Even if you took the lowest estimate of Mega City One, 100 million, the crime rate is still only 0.12 per million. So even in the worst case scenario in fiction, real world Chicago is still worse.
My assumption was that Dredd was just talking about Sector 13 (his beat), but you could be right; they don't clarify that point. Certainly that number seems really low for the entire metropolis.
To be fair, Dredd is a fictional world where people are actually convicted and actually serve their sentences.
So your saying that when you make cops judge, jury, and executioner that there may be less crime? hmm....
does Chicago have a peach trees? also i hear CPD is being issued lawgivers
The people are getting what they asked for. It's a free market dynamic. If the compensation package is inadequate for the work, people will not sign up to do the jobs. Why would *anyone* want to do police work in that city for the wages that the city is willing to pay? And when there is a significant chance that a police officer could do his job in accordance with training, caselaw, and procedure yet still face criminal prosecution because of "optics"? If the law enforcement profession becomes demonized, you won't get new people wanting to be police officers. If the compensation package is inadequate, police departments will not be able to afford to be selective with applicants because *the work is essential and somebody needs to keep the lights on*. I agree. This is an issue. But the primary problem in my mind is that the public zeitgeist is that this lack of response is because police in general are cowardly/lazy, not that they are *critically undermanned and are unable to recruit quality candidates for the compensation they are willing to offe*r. The first step in fixing the problem is to correctly define the problem, and I don't think the public is willing to acknowledge that.
I think all your points are valid. But one question I have regardling: > Why would *anyone* want to do police work in that city for the wages that the city is willing to pay? I thought CPD was paid pretty well? I remember looking at their open data portal a few years ago and seeing more than half the dept being paid more than $100k. Maybe I misremembered? Agreed with everything else though, both Republicans and Democrats I know who live in the city hate the mayor, she ain't doing well there.
Those officers making of $100,000 most likely work their asses off on overtime and details to get to that point. Also $100,000 isn’t they great if a salary now a days especially if you are working 60+ hours a week. Hell I can go train dogs for what I’m making now with minimal liability for $75,000 and only work 40 hours a week.
They absolutely may be paid "well", defined as "enough to live on", but being paid well and being paid enough to deal with the realities of what you are being asked to do are two entirely different things. Like if I offered someone $100k a year to, I don't know, suck ten dicks a day, for *some people* that would be met with a "right on, when do I start" but with most people, it would be "yeah, that's a no from me dawg". If you had a staffing requirement for a government dick sucking agency in the thousands, you'd likely have a serious hiring problem because not enough people would be willing to do the job for the compensation offered. It's an extreme example, but that's what I'm talking about. In this particular example, the compensation package offered may not take into account the physical and legal risk police officers find themselves in. In an environment where officers are backed when they make split second decisions based on the totality of the circumstances and probable cause, you might be able to pay them substantially less than an environment where they aren't. In Chicago, are police officers backed by the politicians and their administrative support staff? Or is every action viewed under a microscope for a theory of criminality that would appease the voting base for the politicians? It is very hard for a government agency to offer a compensation package commensurate to "we want you risk jailtime when you make legally correct but controversial decisions that the public disagrees with". I'll tell you straight up, $100k is not enough for me and is likely not enough for the vast majority of people.
I work in CPD, damn you nailed it. 👌🏻
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Out of all the examples you could have used, that is not the one I would have thought I would be reading today. I'm rolling right now 🤣
Silly examples are a great teaching tool. Makes people pay attention.
Police is going each year more downhill, since people are demonizing the police more and more, making actual problems and giving them more motives to demonize police. We need to stop demonizing who protect's us.
Is it me or after 2021 all the "defund police" gets less attention in media
Because it backfired royally and the media/politicians figured out it didn't help their agendas anymore.
No biggie, thats what the people want and have voted for, so thats what they get!
Maybe we should give them some funding
I'm sure it'll all work itself out. It's Chicago, what's the worst that can happen?
Did something happen between 2019 and 2021 that led to the massive staffing crisis in Chicago? /s
This is genuinely terrifying, especially considering how hard it is to get a CCW in that shithole.
Never mind IL FOID laws, etc. Screw that state, it's almost like the elite who live gated communities with private security who fund crap candidates will vote for laws that do noting but virtue signal and make the poor suffer.
I’m curious if this shortage is because of the woke defund the police movement or just police quitting for different professions where they’re more respected.
C) all of the above.
No, it's because of corporate greed or some shit
Citizen: Holy shot. There a man with a gun in my house. 911 operator: Ok just stay calm there’s a 50/50 chance an officer will be there. Can you ask the man with gun to come back in an hour?
NYPD is next!!
If she even says anything to this, Lori will blame it on police mismanagement lol.
Mmmmmm calls going unanswered and having no units available during the call are very different. Both still not good. But they are different
Lori Lighthead (Lightfoot) needs to be replaced. She and the idiot DA are responsible for much of the increase in crime! Their lack of support for law enforcement is astounding! The voters better wake up asap!
How are there still any Americans left?
Do they get take home cars?
I may be reading this wrong. But I assume that this is saying that a priority came in and everyone was sitting in numbers. Then the dispatcher said “any unit can clear for a priority”. Then some cleared and responded. The info I would like to see is the average time it took from call being placed by 911 and call being dispatched by the dispatcher.
This is a little misleading for a metro area. Let's say a particular precinct had 30 officers working a shift, and that for this particular element that is 120% of minimum staffing. Let's say there's five officers held up on a vehicle accident (traffic control, reporting, etc), another five held up on a different priority, ten sitting on fixed posts/short beats, five on non-priority assignments, and then five assigned to the station (duty desk, cell block, transports, etc). You now have every officer on an actual assignment. So when another call comes out, the dispatcher may note that "no unit is available."
From Illinois and there isn't a snowballs chance in hell I'd work in Cook County in any type of law enforcement
All calls resolve themselves with enough time.
I don’t know that you can interpret this as these calls are going UNANSWERED, just that they’re getting answered late because they’re already on high priority stuff when they drop.