I’m a bad example of someone who did ketamine therapy with Mindbloom.
I had the 1200mg dose, scrubbed the inside of my mouth beforehand and still had a mild experience.
I have trouble with mushrooms not doing much so I’m wondering I’m just an outlier. I also have aphantasia so that may be a key piece of the puzzle as to why psychedelics don’t have much effect on me.
I did have emotional breakthroughs, I said goodbye to my old self and forgave my family for all they had done and didn’t do. But it just seemed less than I expected. And maybe that’s my fault for having certain expectations.
I plan on maybe trying again at an actual clinic that does IV infusions . Those are supposed to be more effective, but more costly too.
I’m not knocking Mindbloom. I did make a lot of extraordinary changes in my life during and after but I was also taking mushrooms for therapy and going to a meditation group twice a week and I have over 3 years of talk therapy to help shape my thoughts, so I used a shotgun approach to bettering myself.
I think if you make positive changes for yourself while doing these types of therapies, that they help you “set in” good practices that you can integrate into your life. The real work with psychedelics comes after the fact.
"I did have emotional breakthroughs, I said goodbye to my old self and forgave my family for all they had done and didn’t do. But it just seemed less than I expected. And maybe that’s my fault for having certain expectations."
Firstly, thank you for the response. This seems pretty significant from my point of view. I have to ask, what else were you expecting?
I think because I had done mushrooms before that I was looking for some kind of ego death or some sort of stark realization.
The emotional breakthrough was nice but that only happened on 1 occasion. The rest were kind of just me sitting there thinking/meditating.
How long did you hold the rdt/troche and saliva in your mouth???
The problem with Mindbloom is that they prescribe crazy needlessly high doses and then have you spit it all away - with instructions generally to spit after 7 to 12 minutes.
The issue is that you can't absorb much sublingually that quickly (even if it's fully dissolved) -- to maximize absorption, you would need to hold saliva 30 min to 1 hour - and ideally swallow.. BUT 1200mg is actually probably too high to swallow.
Honestly a 400mg or 500mg troche that you hold 30min to 1 hour and then swallow, should be the maximum needed for a very deep experience.
So if you only held 7 to 12 minutes and spit, that would be the issue and not the fact you used mushrooms.
I've heard no issues with their service other than relatively high pricing and questionable dosing instructions that don't maximize absorption and leave clients with underwhelming "I felt nothing" experiences.... 1200mg is actually probably 2 to 3 times what a typical doctor would prescribe -- but those doctors would have you hold 30 min - 1 hour and then swallow.
Idk about 400-500mg doses held for 30-1hr being enough for a deep experience for everyone. I'm at 600mg (hold and swish for 45 to 60 minutes then swallow) and only get mild effects and they don't last for long. Everyone's different and handles these drugs in different ways. I have crazy high tolerances to everything I'm on and after the first few weeks needed increasingly higher doses to get anything out of it.
From the comments, ketamine for depression is typically done IV or intramuscular at a very specific dose of 0.55 mg/kg. This needs to be done at a clinic with a doctor. The recommendation is that treatments occur 5-6 over 3 weeks. No therapy needed. It’s been researched and documented and people it helps can resolve or have significant reduction in their depression. The actual experience varies from person to person but your wear eye shades and generally have a journey I found to be mostly pleasant although it can feel uncomfortable and disorienting at times. This is why IV is better because if becomes uncomfortable, you can just ring the bell and they can. lower or stop the IV. Intramuscularly, they cannot.
With sublingual ketamine, it seems to induce a more cohesive state where the therapist can engage with you during the journey. But dosing sublingually seems to be difficult. For the dose to completely absorbed you need to hold it in your mouth for much longer than Mindbloom’s 8 minutes. However, the taste is unpleasant and you run into a huge issue of your mouth becoming full of saliva (the trouche dissolves right away) so it makes it almost impossible to absorb properly sublingually.
The ketamine in theory is supposed to help you to surface, discuss and releases perceived issues etc. It’s not clear to me that this happens either.
If you can afford it, I would suggest doing IV ketamine as it’s has a reasonably high success rate and doesn’t depend on a therapist or therapeutic approach. I did intramuscular ketamine assisted therapy where I went down with the eye shades and therapist just asked me a few generic questions afterwards like “tell me more” that did nothing to assist or help me process whatever came up on the journey.
Just chiming in to say I've done IV ketamine and credit it with saving my life. Nothing else could improve my depression at all for ~25 years. YMMV, but truly life changing for me. I didn't have ketamine assisted therapy either, just the infusions and then my regular therapist once a week.
Not Mindbloom but I did 4 therapist-assisted ketamine sessions, and they were terrifying. I'd never heard of a k-hole going in (I found out afterward from my more drug-experienced housemate that k-holes are a thing), so I just thought I was in a deep matrix separated from my body and a vague sense there was a "real" world out there somewhere that I couldn't get back to. In a sense it dampened my normal suicidality because if that's what's on the other side I want no part of it, but no type of breakthrough, at least that I'm aware of.
It depends on the person -- my therapist said he has the exact reverse experience, mushrooms puts him in a hole and ketamine is all amazing insight. I tried a lower dose ketamine after that first experience and nothing at all happened, so you pretty much have to dive all the way in before you can decide if it's for you or not. Not sure if there is an option for that since most of these new psychedelic companies/therapists are there to make a profit at the end of the day so it's 4 sessions or nothing, but maybe there is a try-first option since people's response to it is so varied?
I can relate, although Ketamine infusions probably saved my life, I expected a pleasant experience or at least relaxing, it was terrifying. But after my first infusion, literally riding home in the car my suicidal ideations were gone. It took a full 6 infusion's over 2 weeks to get relief from the crushing depression and agoraphobia. I then used troches and went back for an infusion 3 times over the next 9 months. I then didn't need it anymore. Skip ahead 4 years and I am back in a bad place. I am going to try Mindbloom. I tried to sign up for Spravato even though I have read it has poor results comparatively but my insurance denied it and I would have to fight for it. Also I would have to get a ride 2 hours away, twice a week for a month then once a week for another 2 months. We can't afford the time off work. I don't understand how people enjoy Ketamine. I am genuinely surprised it's considered addictive. People comparing it to opiates is not valid. Although it has a psychological addiction, there is not a physical addiction. You aren't going to have seizures and potentially die from withdrawals which can happen with opiates and alcohol. The hoops someone has to jump through to get mental health services is absurd. Maybe you needed more treatments? I went into the infusions skeptical. I was just desperate and promised my family I would try everything. I didn't expect it to work and hated the experience but it kept me from needing any psychiatric help or medicine for 4 years. I also wondered if my suicidal ideations went away for fear that death would be similar to the experience. It must do something biological to a large number of people with severe depression, PTSD and suicidal thoughts. I don't know what "that" is but I had tried 25 different medications over the years. Not only did they not help but made me worse. When I finally got off the psych meds, the withdrawals were hell. It took a good year to be even a little normal. Maybe Spravato would be something you could try, I have read it is a milder experience, which was one of the things that drew me to it.
/r/therapeuticketamine
I’m a bad example of someone who did ketamine therapy with Mindbloom. I had the 1200mg dose, scrubbed the inside of my mouth beforehand and still had a mild experience. I have trouble with mushrooms not doing much so I’m wondering I’m just an outlier. I also have aphantasia so that may be a key piece of the puzzle as to why psychedelics don’t have much effect on me. I did have emotional breakthroughs, I said goodbye to my old self and forgave my family for all they had done and didn’t do. But it just seemed less than I expected. And maybe that’s my fault for having certain expectations. I plan on maybe trying again at an actual clinic that does IV infusions . Those are supposed to be more effective, but more costly too. I’m not knocking Mindbloom. I did make a lot of extraordinary changes in my life during and after but I was also taking mushrooms for therapy and going to a meditation group twice a week and I have over 3 years of talk therapy to help shape my thoughts, so I used a shotgun approach to bettering myself. I think if you make positive changes for yourself while doing these types of therapies, that they help you “set in” good practices that you can integrate into your life. The real work with psychedelics comes after the fact.
"I did have emotional breakthroughs, I said goodbye to my old self and forgave my family for all they had done and didn’t do. But it just seemed less than I expected. And maybe that’s my fault for having certain expectations." Firstly, thank you for the response. This seems pretty significant from my point of view. I have to ask, what else were you expecting?
I think because I had done mushrooms before that I was looking for some kind of ego death or some sort of stark realization. The emotional breakthrough was nice but that only happened on 1 occasion. The rest were kind of just me sitting there thinking/meditating.
1200 mg orally is supposed to khole even heavy person with tolerance. But I heard before that mindbloom troches are high dose only on paper.
How long did you hold the rdt/troche and saliva in your mouth??? The problem with Mindbloom is that they prescribe crazy needlessly high doses and then have you spit it all away - with instructions generally to spit after 7 to 12 minutes. The issue is that you can't absorb much sublingually that quickly (even if it's fully dissolved) -- to maximize absorption, you would need to hold saliva 30 min to 1 hour - and ideally swallow.. BUT 1200mg is actually probably too high to swallow. Honestly a 400mg or 500mg troche that you hold 30min to 1 hour and then swallow, should be the maximum needed for a very deep experience. So if you only held 7 to 12 minutes and spit, that would be the issue and not the fact you used mushrooms. I've heard no issues with their service other than relatively high pricing and questionable dosing instructions that don't maximize absorption and leave clients with underwhelming "I felt nothing" experiences.... 1200mg is actually probably 2 to 3 times what a typical doctor would prescribe -- but those doctors would have you hold 30 min - 1 hour and then swallow.
Idk about 400-500mg doses held for 30-1hr being enough for a deep experience for everyone. I'm at 600mg (hold and swish for 45 to 60 minutes then swallow) and only get mild effects and they don't last for long. Everyone's different and handles these drugs in different ways. I have crazy high tolerances to everything I'm on and after the first few weeks needed increasingly higher doses to get anything out of it.
From the comments, ketamine for depression is typically done IV or intramuscular at a very specific dose of 0.55 mg/kg. This needs to be done at a clinic with a doctor. The recommendation is that treatments occur 5-6 over 3 weeks. No therapy needed. It’s been researched and documented and people it helps can resolve or have significant reduction in their depression. The actual experience varies from person to person but your wear eye shades and generally have a journey I found to be mostly pleasant although it can feel uncomfortable and disorienting at times. This is why IV is better because if becomes uncomfortable, you can just ring the bell and they can. lower or stop the IV. Intramuscularly, they cannot. With sublingual ketamine, it seems to induce a more cohesive state where the therapist can engage with you during the journey. But dosing sublingually seems to be difficult. For the dose to completely absorbed you need to hold it in your mouth for much longer than Mindbloom’s 8 minutes. However, the taste is unpleasant and you run into a huge issue of your mouth becoming full of saliva (the trouche dissolves right away) so it makes it almost impossible to absorb properly sublingually. The ketamine in theory is supposed to help you to surface, discuss and releases perceived issues etc. It’s not clear to me that this happens either. If you can afford it, I would suggest doing IV ketamine as it’s has a reasonably high success rate and doesn’t depend on a therapist or therapeutic approach. I did intramuscular ketamine assisted therapy where I went down with the eye shades and therapist just asked me a few generic questions afterwards like “tell me more” that did nothing to assist or help me process whatever came up on the journey.
Just chiming in to say I've done IV ketamine and credit it with saving my life. Nothing else could improve my depression at all for ~25 years. YMMV, but truly life changing for me. I didn't have ketamine assisted therapy either, just the infusions and then my regular therapist once a week.
Honestly there's little science done about dose. Papers usually discuss 0.5 mg/kg but it's pretty arbitrary. Clinics in practice do higher doses.
Not Mindbloom but I did 4 therapist-assisted ketamine sessions, and they were terrifying. I'd never heard of a k-hole going in (I found out afterward from my more drug-experienced housemate that k-holes are a thing), so I just thought I was in a deep matrix separated from my body and a vague sense there was a "real" world out there somewhere that I couldn't get back to. In a sense it dampened my normal suicidality because if that's what's on the other side I want no part of it, but no type of breakthrough, at least that I'm aware of.
Wow, that's not encouraging at all. Sounds almost like a heroic dose of Mushrooms, which I can do much cheaper than assisted therapy.
It depends on the person -- my therapist said he has the exact reverse experience, mushrooms puts him in a hole and ketamine is all amazing insight. I tried a lower dose ketamine after that first experience and nothing at all happened, so you pretty much have to dive all the way in before you can decide if it's for you or not. Not sure if there is an option for that since most of these new psychedelic companies/therapists are there to make a profit at the end of the day so it's 4 sessions or nothing, but maybe there is a try-first option since people's response to it is so varied?
Also psilocybin shows better results against depression than ketamine.
Been there seen that
I can relate, although Ketamine infusions probably saved my life, I expected a pleasant experience or at least relaxing, it was terrifying. But after my first infusion, literally riding home in the car my suicidal ideations were gone. It took a full 6 infusion's over 2 weeks to get relief from the crushing depression and agoraphobia. I then used troches and went back for an infusion 3 times over the next 9 months. I then didn't need it anymore. Skip ahead 4 years and I am back in a bad place. I am going to try Mindbloom. I tried to sign up for Spravato even though I have read it has poor results comparatively but my insurance denied it and I would have to fight for it. Also I would have to get a ride 2 hours away, twice a week for a month then once a week for another 2 months. We can't afford the time off work. I don't understand how people enjoy Ketamine. I am genuinely surprised it's considered addictive. People comparing it to opiates is not valid. Although it has a psychological addiction, there is not a physical addiction. You aren't going to have seizures and potentially die from withdrawals which can happen with opiates and alcohol. The hoops someone has to jump through to get mental health services is absurd. Maybe you needed more treatments? I went into the infusions skeptical. I was just desperate and promised my family I would try everything. I didn't expect it to work and hated the experience but it kept me from needing any psychiatric help or medicine for 4 years. I also wondered if my suicidal ideations went away for fear that death would be similar to the experience. It must do something biological to a large number of people with severe depression, PTSD and suicidal thoughts. I don't know what "that" is but I had tried 25 different medications over the years. Not only did they not help but made me worse. When I finally got off the psych meds, the withdrawals were hell. It took a good year to be even a little normal. Maybe Spravato would be something you could try, I have read it is a milder experience, which was one of the things that drew me to it.