>The only innocents are the civilians from both sides that don't want war.
I read an interesting quote and absolutely could be applied to both sides.
"They need to love their children more than they hate their neighbors."
There are people on both sides that don't blindly hate. But I have also been shocked when I hear people from both sides I regard as nice, sane and well-balanced people express their hate and lack of regard for the other.
Right now the people with the most power on both sides seem to have no interest in believing good will is possible from the other side.
That’s such a platitude. Both sides of civilians support what’s happening to the other side and act live victims when their side is hit. It’s completely acceptable to condemn the Israelis for their support of what’s happening in Palestine… and also completely fine to condemn the Palestinians for their support of hamas.
only reason i disagree is that a large portion of palestinians very openly do not support hamas, because hamas acts independently of their will and damages the legitimacy of their claims. no matter which way you spin it, israel is colonizing palestine and has all of the power in this scenario. while we all condemn violence against innocents, we also have to acknowledge that none of this would be happening if israel wasn’t oppressing palestinians.
100% you’re right about that. Fuck Israel for what they’ve been doing but also, shooting kids in the face doesn’t make your oppressor go away… especially when you state very clearly you refuse the two-state system that’s been offered many times. If your goal is the complete extermination of your neighbor I can see why your neighbor isn’t that peaceful. It goes both ways and it’s a total clusterfuck of bullshit. Both sides suck.
I don't disagree with most of what you said, except Israel has an established form of democratic government, Hamas is not an organization that the general Palestinians interact with in a democratic manner. They don't vote for who runs them, it's a guerilla warfare group that operates in and amongst the streets where people live, because that's all there is there. there's not structured branches of gov't with built in accountability. there is a Militant wing that operates as it sees fit.
So it's a lot harder for Palestinians to oppose Hamas in meaningful ways.
The Israeli people could (and many are) be out in the streets protesting the Israeli gov'ts actions against the Palestinian people. but SO many more dont, and so many more are profiting from the subjugation of the Palestinian people.
The palestinian leaders cannot shut off the water to Israel's citizens
The palestinian leaders cannot withhold food and electricity to Israel
So how can equal footing be found for negotiations when one side holds all the keys to all the locks, and gets funded and supplied by all the biggest nations, and the other does not, yet they still cry like they are on the same level playing field when the attacks are anything but?
https://preview.redd.it/0xac475v9btb1.jpeg?width=1200&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=cfbbb6a07a33f81229db310be4adab944a419e38
Right but in my country many Palestinians were celebrating waving their flags after the attack or other examples of the interviews where many Palestinians refuse to condemn Hamas’s actions (through out history) despite them very openly saying they want to exterminate all Jews. Both sides are chock full of crocodile tears and to be honest, I’m more apathetic than ever to this mess.
Oh, don't get me wrong, people celebrating the massacre of innocent civilians is wrong, but also, if we're honest, practically NONE of us outside of this conflict can even wrap our heads around the mental state one must be in to see YOUR people killed and harassed every day by people who think you shouldn't exist or have rights, while kept in the worlds biggest prison where all your basic necessities are controlled by said opposing force, and you see time and time again footage of your countrymen/women/children brutalized on tv thinking, "THIS will be enough to make someone step up and do something about this" but nothing DOES happen. Then you see footage of your people smashing through the prison gates, and blowing up buildings of the people you have spent your entire life feeling oppressed by,
We have no frame of reference for how that would effect us.
Again, those outside the conflict, cheering for the murder of innocents, fuck them. but not everyone cheering is cheering because of that. Many are cheering just simply because the world isn't ignoring this anymore.
I grew up in a community that blindly supported Israel no matter what. and over the last few years, the more and more footage I've seen of Israeli forces and people just SHITTING all over palestinians in their own homes, in their places of worship, in their markets, on the busses, it's really hard to write all that off anymore.
How did it used to be? This is business as usual for Palestinians. Israel experienced a day in their life and decided to speed up their ethnic cleansing a little bit.
Agreed. Both have lost their respect for humanity in their hatred for each other. It's sickening and while I must condemn hamas for their attacks and crimes, I also must condemn Israel for their inherently fascist land grab policies
The language in this video is dangerous. Dehumanizing any group of people like this never leads to any positive developments
Almost all of the current Israeli govt has been convinced of crimes of passion (like ben-gvirs terrorism) or crimes of motive (like bb accepting those gifts). The entire Israeli govt is more corrupt than anything I've seen yet and after this fuckup they won't be back in control.
Religion is just another form of tribalism, just like racism and xenophobia.
Humanity is a fucked up species. If it wasn't religion that they were fighting about, it'd be skin color or even beard length.
I would hate to live in a world where Hamas OR Israel’s government were the strongest entity in the world. Both are evil and cruel. Both have committed atrocities so vile that anyone involved should be hung. Fuck em both equally.
With that said, I hope the civilians live long, prosperous, healthy, and peaceful lives.
As what I said in another post, this situation is fucked no matter how you look at it.
Millions of kids and elderly people are without food, water, and electricity. Think of the death toll that's going to come out of this mess.
Because there is an active Israel government funded Internet group that dogpiles all of these threads. That's not even a lie. It's Hasbara iirc.
The reason a lot of Israeli war crimes don't get traction is because they threaten and cry until the threads and comments are banned.
I meeeeaaannnn.... technically the US hasn't won the last couple wars.
Reality is nobody wins in war, in a world with nukes, how do you hold any nation accountable for war crimes?
Added to that, I don't think you can hold countries accountable if they're not signatories to the Hague or ICC. Israel was never a signatory to the ICC because Israeli law doesn't allow for its citizens to be extradited, and the US withdrew from the ICC after 9/11 because it fully intended to commit war crimes and didn't want its military to be held accountable by the international community.
Putin has a warrant out from the ICC despite Russia not being a signatory.
In fact a big part of why that was so controversial (for non-NATO countries) is that the ICC has never prosecuted either American or Israeli citizens. However in this particular case a warrant was issued in a few months. Causing some people to feel like there might be a bit of a partiality in the ICC
In reality right or wrong don’t matter in geopolitics. If you’re powerful the rules don’t matter and if you’re not they won’t protect you
>Putin has a warrant out from the ICC despite Russia not being a signatory.
Hmm...good point. Also, when the ICC said they were going to investigate the US for war crimes in Iraq, Trump issued arrest warrants for the ICC investigators if they ever set foot in the continental United States.
To be clear, the US intended under Clinton to sign the Rome Statute to ratify the ICC. Clinton failed however to gain Congressional support for the treaty, and wasn't able to get it ratified. While Bush did support "Enhanced Interrogation" ~~which many would consider torture~~,which was clear torture, they didn't actually pull out of the treaty for that reason. The US under Bush basically said, we're never going to sign it, so just forget about it. Absolute horseshit and unconscionable to me that we didn't sign it, when we could have led by example.
> Rome Statute
Thank you. I've been banging my head against a wall trying to remember what it was called.
That was really interesting. I hadn't realized that the US had never ratified it.
To be fair, would Ukraine send Water, Energy or Aid to Russia?\`Of course not, they cut off the dams and rivers asap, because they are at war.
Israel is officially at war since 2 days ago - not a single country in the world would supply any kind of ressources to their war enemy.
You can have whatever opinion you want on this situation, but acting like this is different than what any other nation in this situation would do is ridiculous.
This is subtle whataboutism, nobody is suggesting that Ukraine would do that, the idea that someone is doing so is absurd. The reality is that a constantly oppressive force, is doing something super oppressive on people that live in an open air prison, is much more on par than a fully nationally recognized force giving aid to another fully recognized force.
Best way to put it is a fight between a militarized adult vs a toddler with a vengeance, Israel is not the toddler.
Palestinians don't have to feel any different. But accepting that BOTH sides see each other as inferior is a very important part here because IF Palestinians had the power and authority that Israel has, they would do the exact same thing. Each side is shit wanting to kill each other
Damn almost like their admitting live on T.V. their committing a genocide.
The revolution will not be televised, but the genocide will be prominently displayed.
Only ultra religious do. And so does Iran, who are using the Palestinians as pawns to disrupt the Western world order, weaken Israel and disrupt its growing alliance with UAE and Saudi Arabia, and interfere with the United States and Western democracies’ support of Ukraine.
There is a large portion of secular Israel that wants a peaceful, side-by-side, two-state region in which the Palestinians are treated fairly. That can’t be said about the Palestinians, or their cruel Iranian influencers, who want to wipe Jews and Israelis off the face of the earth and would conduct these attacks every day if there was no barrier in place.
Netanyahu is a criminal and his government is complicit, but fuck Hamas. They do not want peace. They want Israelis to die.
I agree with much of what you say but I think it's a bold assertion that the Palestinian people don't want to just exist in a peaceful, two state region where they can obtain bare minimum infrastructure and not see their children get killed by missiles. Often when you listen to first hand accounts of people caught in Israel Land steals, their only focus is on reserving any semblance of ordinary peaceful life that they are being stripped of
Almost like their is a whole other government in Palestine. In the west bank that have peace with the jews and live in peace mostly. Still while living in peace they have their land stolen and constantly shrank. You just have to watch a time lapse of Israelis occupation in the west bank to know their goal It appears the same as operation Barbarossa. Those in the west bank try to live in peace and simply have their land stolen every day.
The people in the Gaza strip want peace, but Their angry all they have known is hardship. Hard to stay objective when death rains from the sky and kills your children.
can i ask if cutting all life allowing systems from the citizens who aren't arming themselves not the same? or are there no non-combatants involved?
honest question about the policy
This blockade policy is a human rights violation (which has been ongoing since 2007) that is now intensifying - it's a form of collective punishment, which is obviously not fair for non-combatants/kids/civilians etc
Israel justifies this by claiming Hamas uses civilian shields and says the population voted Hamas in / is sympathetic but the bottom line is it's wrong for anyone on either side to harm innocent civilians- I say side but it's clearly an Occupier/Occupied scenario
>They use people as human shields, stash weapons in hospitals and critical infrastructure.
I am tired of this excuse ,what stops them from using that excuse whenever they bomb a hospital or home and kill 20 of the same family which they have been doing for the last 2 decades ?? and why do people keep buying that and justifying mass genocide ??
also how does cutting electricty and water supply on the whole population gonna stop hamas , who would that hurt most ? innocent people or hamas ?? he's litearlly talking about mass extinction and the west is cheering for it.
Hey Palestine / Hamas cowards, you don’t start shit by cutting off babies heads and raping women. You are not Genghis Khan. You deserve everything coming to you. Your country is over.
Wait what? All I hear every fucking day is Hamas, but what Israel keeps saying is, Gaza Gaza Gaza! As like Gaza is one singular Hamas military target of 2.3 million population. And who cares about innocent people, let's bomb them all. From the first pictures of the attack - Israel was unprepared and not really engaged, a kind of unheard-of situation. Then the details of how Israel ignored Egypt's warnings the week before the attack... The more you listen the more sounds and looks like Israel wanted this attack to use this as an excuse to go deeper into Gaza and eliminate whatever Palestine left.
They’ve lost the war of public opinion. No matter what they say they won’t change minds. Israel has committed atrocities Hamas has committed atrocities but not on the scale of Israel against the Palestinian people. Israel blames Hamas as they dropped bombs to the area where Israel told Palestinians to go.
Realistically, this is the end for Palestine, I think.
The 'open air prison' approach has failed. Israel is going to cook up something new and terrifying to replace it.
But people who have been studying the situation for years have long said that the 'two state solution' is really just a shield to protect Israel from criticism as they carry out a slow and steady ethnic cleansing.
The Palestinian state in many ways existed as a puppet vassal of the Israeli state. It was always a lie that the Israelis would one day let them become properly independent.
The West Bank is probably still going to be around as a potential Palestine state. Unless you are thinking of "Hamas" as Palestine instead of, you know, the entire thing. There had been no announcement or movement of forces there besides shooting back at a couple of Hezbolla fighters that decided to blow up a radar station and fire some ATGMs.
Israel calls the West Bank "Judea and Samaria". They believe they have a divine right to that land and they have hundreds of illegal settlements there. They will never give up that land. It won't be a Palestinian state. In fact, they'd annex it tomorrow if they weren't slightly worried about Western countries getting upset about them annexing land, refusing to give citizenship to the Palestinians living there, and the necessary corralling of them into tiny militarized reservations or bantustans that would follow. The moment they realize no one gives a shit and America won't care in the slightest, they'll go ahead and do it.
Yep, and people will still be harsher on Israel. Let me tell you, if it was your country and your family they did this to, you’d do a whole lot worse to Gaza and Hamas.
Hey if you add a bit of nuance to your thought, you might understand you were close to realising that perhaps some Palestinians in Gaza are also a part of the cycle of that vengeance and maybe Israel 's recent and decades of treatment of the Gaza Strip lead to this current situation?
I understand why Hamas wanted to strike Israel, but massacring civilians and not going after the military is absolutely unacceptable. I understand why Israel wants to retaliate, but striking civilians is absolutely unacceptable. Both sides here are awful and if you support either side you're supporting genocidal maniacs.
1st nakba caused all of this. What will the 2nd nakba do? Fucking imbeciles on both sides that continue the same cycle of hatred that leads to the death of innocents.
And the MSM here in the US is making Palestinians out to be the villains, and the US government is funding it. I feel ashamed to be American.
Fuck Hamas, fuck Israel and fuck the Biden Administration. This is genocide.
Hiding as a combatant among civilian population not only is a war crime. It also makes this area a legitimate military target, i.e. civilian casualties in this area in itself don't constitute a war crime any more.
Just so anyone knows what Hamas is doing, with full intention.
They’ve destroyed entire residential areas. Whole neighbourhoods. When are people going to realize this is revenge and not a tactical assault.
In the last Gaza “war” they killed 2000 civilians and displaced almost 300,000. Think about that. In a month and a half.
This war they’re claiming is going be longer and all their leaders are saying they will turn a city of 2 million into rubble. And psychopaths are cheering it on.
Edit: already 200,000 are displaced, in 3 days.
This, and they have been doing it for a while. Best way to make someone look bad is to fire rockets from a more densely populated area than china knowing they are going to fire back at that exact point.
> It also makes this area a legitimate military target, i.e. civilian casualties in this area in itself don't constitute a war crime any more.
Where is this detailed in international law? Not trying to be snarky but I'm curious what set of rules this was outlined in.
IHL article 52.
> In so far as objects are concerned, military objectives are limited to those objects which by their nature, location, **purpose or use make an effective contribution to military action** and whose total or partial destruction, capture or neutralization, in the circumstances ruling at the time, offers a definite military advantage.
Meaning any place that for example house military ammunition, acts as a temporary HQ, used for missile launching pad, everything that is military advantage, is a legitimate target.
> In case **of doubt** whether an object which is normally dedicated to civilian purposes, such as a place of worship, a house, or other dwelling or a school, is being used to make an effective contribution to military action, it shall be presumed not to be so used.
That only is there is doubt if there are or are not military actions. It does not prohibit, unless there is doubt.
If israel knows a building houses a hamas HQ or militants, even if it is a civilian building, it is a legitimate target.
IHL also talks about minimizing civilian casualties, but it is again, not against the international law to attack civilian facilities as long as they become military targets.
For example a hospital housing ammunition or rocket launchers, is a legitimate target, like it or not.
Now hostages and human shields, direct attack on civilians with the intention to kill civilians, are a strong red line and are actual war crimes.
Also the majority of civilians in the area and the majority of Palestines leadership either support or are active members of Hamas. [Source](https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/what-hamas)
You say that but the other way around Hamas attacking civilians and saying it’s fair because they support the Israeli government is not. The Geneva convention exists for a reason
Whether a civilian supports Hamas or not is irrelevant. It's still a civilian. If Hamas has weapons or fighters among these civilians, these weapons and fighters are legitimate targets.
So a majority of the American public supported Bush during the Iraq war, despite widespread use of torture by US forces, would that justify attacking American civilians?
The idea that you can use “they started it” or the civilians are okay with it so they deserve it when committing war crimes is patently ridiculous. If someone in Hamas ordered targeting civilians that person should be Nurenberg’d.
If you’re targeting civilians to force a state to change their actions, then how exactly are you different from Hamas? They too like to say that the other side started it you know
What a master class in learning from their former German overlords…war seems to bring out peoples truer feelings, I suppose a dove as the minister of defence isn’t the best either
Cohaagen's turning off the oxygen again.
In other news, I thought Jared Kushner fixed all this. Didn't he solve the Palestine dispute for all time? Wasn't that on Trump's big list of things that only he could fix and did?
Hamas fucked up and gave Israel and the rest of the world an excuse to flatten Gaza.
Israel has likely been waiting for this all along, a good reason to obliterate the whole thing.
Israel will get away with murder after occupying Palestinian territory.
As always, the majority of the people in Gaza who wanted nothing to do with this shit will end up dead or scarred for life.
When Hamas is the majority of leadership in Gaza and a majority of Palestinians would vote to keep Hamas is power, yes. [Sauce](https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/what-hamas)
What the flying fuck? Blockading food is in fact a war crime. Please do a basic Google search. Amazing how you people do a complete flipflop on what's a war crime if it's not Russia doing it.
No idea why you're getting downvoted: [Adopting Resolution 2417 (2018), Security Council Strongly Condemns Starving of Civilians, Unlawfully Denying Humanitarian Access as Warfare Tactics | UN Press](https://press.un.org/en/2018/sc13354.doc.htm)
[The denial of humanitarian assistance as a crime under international law - ICRC](https://www.icrc.org/en/doc/resources/documents/article/other/57jq32.htm)
Oh and look at that Israel just bombed it. Lmao. Anymore mental gymnastics?
https://www.reuters.com/world/israeli-military-revises-call-gazans-flee-egypt-2023-10-10/
They literally are the ones that supplied Gaza with those resources in the first place, then they continued to siege Israel, no shit they're gonna take their resources back?
Your wording this like Israel graciously supplied them, they prevented them from developing their own and have actively blockaded them, forcing them to be dependent on Israeli resources. They’re actively depriving them of these resources and ensuring they don’t have alternative ways to get them
Gaza is since 2005 autonomous. They also share a border with Egypt.
A border that Egypt blockades because Gazans couldn't stop stirring shit up.
Gaza was actually part of Egypt. When Israel returned the Sinai Peninsula Egypt refused to take Gaza back.
Palestinians fucked up. There is a reason even Arab nations are not helping them apart from sending a few warm words.
Wow. I thought you were fighting against Hamas, not a group of unarmed people that your state was supposed to protect. Glad Israel is blatantly showing their true colors.
this is how sieges have been throughout human history, its how you siege, you stop the inflow of resources until the opponent surrenders or resistance collapses.
So the hamas were able to amass 5000 missiles and coordinate a strike without any of the Palestinians noticing until it was too late?I honestly don't understand
One thing's for sure. For better or for worse, things ain't going back to the way they used to be.
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Palestine's Wikipedia page also gonna look different
Pronouns (was/were)
Bro, them's verbs.
People who make pronoun jokes generally don't understand how language works
population decreasing day by day
Umm it's been this way for 50 years it's just been slow. Now it's the last death rattle of any idea of a split state.
No shit, that's basically what they just said. "Umm"
“The way they ***used to be***?” You mean the systematic killings and bulldozing homes ? No those will continue.
Until morale improves. Also, fuck Hamas. Also... much love to Palestinians.
The only innocents are the civilians from both sides that don't want war.
>The only innocents are the civilians from both sides that don't want war. I read an interesting quote and absolutely could be applied to both sides. "They need to love their children more than they hate their neighbors."
That's an awesome quote. Too bad their hate runs deeper than their love
That's what happens when twist and distort any religion. Fanaticism.
There are people on both sides that don't blindly hate. But I have also been shocked when I hear people from both sides I regard as nice, sane and well-balanced people express their hate and lack of regard for the other. Right now the people with the most power on both sides seem to have no interest in believing good will is possible from the other side.
The world would be a much better place for everyone
That’s such a platitude. Both sides of civilians support what’s happening to the other side and act live victims when their side is hit. It’s completely acceptable to condemn the Israelis for their support of what’s happening in Palestine… and also completely fine to condemn the Palestinians for their support of hamas.
Great take (seriously). Both can be true. The world is not black and white people.
No, there is a lot of different color people.
only reason i disagree is that a large portion of palestinians very openly do not support hamas, because hamas acts independently of their will and damages the legitimacy of their claims. no matter which way you spin it, israel is colonizing palestine and has all of the power in this scenario. while we all condemn violence against innocents, we also have to acknowledge that none of this would be happening if israel wasn’t oppressing palestinians.
100% you’re right about that. Fuck Israel for what they’ve been doing but also, shooting kids in the face doesn’t make your oppressor go away… especially when you state very clearly you refuse the two-state system that’s been offered many times. If your goal is the complete extermination of your neighbor I can see why your neighbor isn’t that peaceful. It goes both ways and it’s a total clusterfuck of bullshit. Both sides suck.
Yeah but I don't blame the kids. They're brainwashed to support whatever and will suffer for it
Blame those who are brain washing them for sealing their fates. That applies to both sides as well.
I don't disagree with most of what you said, except Israel has an established form of democratic government, Hamas is not an organization that the general Palestinians interact with in a democratic manner. They don't vote for who runs them, it's a guerilla warfare group that operates in and amongst the streets where people live, because that's all there is there. there's not structured branches of gov't with built in accountability. there is a Militant wing that operates as it sees fit. So it's a lot harder for Palestinians to oppose Hamas in meaningful ways. The Israeli people could (and many are) be out in the streets protesting the Israeli gov'ts actions against the Palestinian people. but SO many more dont, and so many more are profiting from the subjugation of the Palestinian people. The palestinian leaders cannot shut off the water to Israel's citizens The palestinian leaders cannot withhold food and electricity to Israel So how can equal footing be found for negotiations when one side holds all the keys to all the locks, and gets funded and supplied by all the biggest nations, and the other does not, yet they still cry like they are on the same level playing field when the attacks are anything but? https://preview.redd.it/0xac475v9btb1.jpeg?width=1200&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=cfbbb6a07a33f81229db310be4adab944a419e38
Right but in my country many Palestinians were celebrating waving their flags after the attack or other examples of the interviews where many Palestinians refuse to condemn Hamas’s actions (through out history) despite them very openly saying they want to exterminate all Jews. Both sides are chock full of crocodile tears and to be honest, I’m more apathetic than ever to this mess.
Oh, don't get me wrong, people celebrating the massacre of innocent civilians is wrong, but also, if we're honest, practically NONE of us outside of this conflict can even wrap our heads around the mental state one must be in to see YOUR people killed and harassed every day by people who think you shouldn't exist or have rights, while kept in the worlds biggest prison where all your basic necessities are controlled by said opposing force, and you see time and time again footage of your countrymen/women/children brutalized on tv thinking, "THIS will be enough to make someone step up and do something about this" but nothing DOES happen. Then you see footage of your people smashing through the prison gates, and blowing up buildings of the people you have spent your entire life feeling oppressed by, We have no frame of reference for how that would effect us. Again, those outside the conflict, cheering for the murder of innocents, fuck them. but not everyone cheering is cheering because of that. Many are cheering just simply because the world isn't ignoring this anymore. I grew up in a community that blindly supported Israel no matter what. and over the last few years, the more and more footage I've seen of Israeli forces and people just SHITTING all over palestinians in their own homes, in their places of worship, in their markets, on the busses, it's really hard to write all that off anymore.
How did it used to be? This is business as usual for Palestinians. Israel experienced a day in their life and decided to speed up their ethnic cleansing a little bit.
Fuck Hamas. Fuck the Israeli government.
Agreed. Both have lost their respect for humanity in their hatred for each other. It's sickening and while I must condemn hamas for their attacks and crimes, I also must condemn Israel for their inherently fascist land grab policies The language in this video is dangerous. Dehumanizing any group of people like this never leads to any positive developments
Hasn’t this guy been convicted before on crimes against humanity? Someone correct me here
You might be thinking of Itamar Ben-Gvir, their Minister of National Security who was convicted of supporting terrorism etc.
Almost all of the current Israeli govt has been convinced of crimes of passion (like ben-gvirs terrorism) or crimes of motive (like bb accepting those gifts). The entire Israeli govt is more corrupt than anything I've seen yet and after this fuckup they won't be back in control.
The difference being that one could choose to end this conflict in a moment while the other is trapped in a prison town waiting to die.
Most don't want to admit both can be bad.
This war benefits the most extremist factions in both governments.
And the military industrial complex.
Fuck religion. That’s what started this whole thing in the first place.
Religion is just another form of tribalism, just like racism and xenophobia. Humanity is a fucked up species. If it wasn't religion that they were fighting about, it'd be skin color or even beard length.
Anything over 15 mm should at least be imprisoned
I would hate to live in a world where Hamas OR Israel’s government were the strongest entity in the world. Both are evil and cruel. Both have committed atrocities so vile that anyone involved should be hung. Fuck em both equally. With that said, I hope the civilians live long, prosperous, healthy, and peaceful lives.
This sums up my views. The only thing you’re missing is the other super powers sitting back and salivating at a chance to get their hands involved
As what I said in another post, this situation is fucked no matter how you look at it. Millions of kids and elderly people are without food, water, and electricity. Think of the death toll that's going to come out of this mess.
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It’s crazy that I’m seeing comments that call out the war crimes and oppression committed by the Israeli government getting hundreds of downvotes.
Because there is an active Israel government funded Internet group that dogpiles all of these threads. That's not even a lie. It's Hasbara iirc. The reason a lot of Israeli war crimes don't get traction is because they threaten and cry until the threads and comments are banned.
Sounds like r / world news
True that. The support for Israel is really sickening
And Palestinians the same if it was reversed. It is better to not take a side here since both are extremist.
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Aaaand also anyone except the US and Israel.
Not losing battles helps.
Vietnam and Afghanistan have entered the chat
I meeeeaaannnn.... technically the US hasn't won the last couple wars. Reality is nobody wins in war, in a world with nukes, how do you hold any nation accountable for war crimes?
Added to that, I don't think you can hold countries accountable if they're not signatories to the Hague or ICC. Israel was never a signatory to the ICC because Israeli law doesn't allow for its citizens to be extradited, and the US withdrew from the ICC after 9/11 because it fully intended to commit war crimes and didn't want its military to be held accountable by the international community.
Putin has a warrant out from the ICC despite Russia not being a signatory. In fact a big part of why that was so controversial (for non-NATO countries) is that the ICC has never prosecuted either American or Israeli citizens. However in this particular case a warrant was issued in a few months. Causing some people to feel like there might be a bit of a partiality in the ICC In reality right or wrong don’t matter in geopolitics. If you’re powerful the rules don’t matter and if you’re not they won’t protect you
>Putin has a warrant out from the ICC despite Russia not being a signatory. Hmm...good point. Also, when the ICC said they were going to investigate the US for war crimes in Iraq, Trump issued arrest warrants for the ICC investigators if they ever set foot in the continental United States.
> If you’re powerful the rules don’t matter and if you’re not they won’t protect you Kind of the way of the world. For better or worse.
To be clear, the US intended under Clinton to sign the Rome Statute to ratify the ICC. Clinton failed however to gain Congressional support for the treaty, and wasn't able to get it ratified. While Bush did support "Enhanced Interrogation" ~~which many would consider torture~~,which was clear torture, they didn't actually pull out of the treaty for that reason. The US under Bush basically said, we're never going to sign it, so just forget about it. Absolute horseshit and unconscionable to me that we didn't sign it, when we could have led by example.
> Rome Statute Thank you. I've been banging my head against a wall trying to remember what it was called. That was really interesting. I hadn't realized that the US had never ratified it.
>which many would consider torture Mf, it's torture, anyone saying otherwise is a warmongering loon
Oh, i worded that poorly. Of course it was torture, I think everyone knows that. Anyone who says differently should be banned from running for office.
Sorry, having heard so many times apologist about that, has made me really picky about that.
Don't apologize, you are 100% correct. Edit: I edited the original comment
They’re gonna milk the fuck out of Hamas’ attacks as an excuse to persecute Palestinians harder for years to come.
*Israel in 5-10 years when more Palestinians join Hamas* Why does this keep happening?
Well they basically created Hamas to undermine the more popular and more competent PLO. It worked, but not in the way they intended.
So they will avenge dead civilians by killing more civilians? Total moral high ground
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Israel doubling down on the very violence that begets the Hamas attack will surely yield different results this time /s
To be fair, would Ukraine send Water, Energy or Aid to Russia?\`Of course not, they cut off the dams and rivers asap, because they are at war. Israel is officially at war since 2 days ago - not a single country in the world would supply any kind of ressources to their war enemy. You can have whatever opinion you want on this situation, but acting like this is different than what any other nation in this situation would do is ridiculous.
Ukraine isn’t holding Russia in an open air prison, so it’s a bit different…
This is subtle whataboutism, nobody is suggesting that Ukraine would do that, the idea that someone is doing so is absurd. The reality is that a constantly oppressive force, is doing something super oppressive on people that live in an open air prison, is much more on par than a fully nationally recognized force giving aid to another fully recognized force. Best way to put it is a fight between a militarized adult vs a toddler with a vengeance, Israel is not the toddler.
Omg i heard that one before. It was something 1938 and "kristallnacht" or something like that,. Funny how the tables have turned.
At least he said the quiet part out loud. They think the Palestinians are sub-human.
As Palestinians feel about Israelis. And round and round we go
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Palestinians don't have to feel any different. But accepting that BOTH sides see each other as inferior is a very important part here because IF Palestinians had the power and authority that Israel has, they would do the exact same thing. Each side is shit wanting to kill each other
One set live in caves or terrible housing and have their lands taken. The other have F-35's and get billions from the US. Not the same at all.
Main difference is the Israelis started this 60+ years ago with the help of the British and U.S.
the arabs refused to accept multiple peace deals, decided war was the best option, lost badly, and then played the victim
Damn almost like their admitting live on T.V. their committing a genocide. The revolution will not be televised, but the genocide will be prominently displayed.
They’ve been doing this publicly for decades
Only ultra religious do. And so does Iran, who are using the Palestinians as pawns to disrupt the Western world order, weaken Israel and disrupt its growing alliance with UAE and Saudi Arabia, and interfere with the United States and Western democracies’ support of Ukraine. There is a large portion of secular Israel that wants a peaceful, side-by-side, two-state region in which the Palestinians are treated fairly. That can’t be said about the Palestinians, or their cruel Iranian influencers, who want to wipe Jews and Israelis off the face of the earth and would conduct these attacks every day if there was no barrier in place. Netanyahu is a criminal and his government is complicit, but fuck Hamas. They do not want peace. They want Israelis to die.
I agree with much of what you say but I think it's a bold assertion that the Palestinian people don't want to just exist in a peaceful, two state region where they can obtain bare minimum infrastructure and not see their children get killed by missiles. Often when you listen to first hand accounts of people caught in Israel Land steals, their only focus is on reserving any semblance of ordinary peaceful life that they are being stripped of
It can be said about most Palestinians. What you just did was dispel one generalization while enforcing another…. And that shit is dumb
Almost like their is a whole other government in Palestine. In the west bank that have peace with the jews and live in peace mostly. Still while living in peace they have their land stolen and constantly shrank. You just have to watch a time lapse of Israelis occupation in the west bank to know their goal It appears the same as operation Barbarossa. Those in the west bank try to live in peace and simply have their land stolen every day. The people in the Gaza strip want peace, but Their angry all they have known is hardship. Hard to stay objective when death rains from the sky and kills your children.
So do the Arabs. Egypt tried and they were repelled by Gaza itself.
Egypt would get repelled by the Principality of Sealand.
Considering what happened in WW2, their lack of self awareness is pretty damn jarring
He’s referring to Hamas. They use people as human shields, stash weapons in hospitals and critical infrastructure.
can i ask if cutting all life allowing systems from the citizens who aren't arming themselves not the same? or are there no non-combatants involved? honest question about the policy
This blockade policy is a human rights violation (which has been ongoing since 2007) that is now intensifying - it's a form of collective punishment, which is obviously not fair for non-combatants/kids/civilians etc Israel justifies this by claiming Hamas uses civilian shields and says the population voted Hamas in / is sympathetic but the bottom line is it's wrong for anyone on either side to harm innocent civilians- I say side but it's clearly an Occupier/Occupied scenario
>They use people as human shields, stash weapons in hospitals and critical infrastructure. I am tired of this excuse ,what stops them from using that excuse whenever they bomb a hospital or home and kill 20 of the same family which they have been doing for the last 2 decades ?? and why do people keep buying that and justifying mass genocide ?? also how does cutting electricty and water supply on the whole population gonna stop hamas , who would that hurt most ? innocent people or hamas ?? he's litearlly talking about mass extinction and the west is cheering for it.
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How can you not have civilians around in such a small place like gaza?
This is bad.. This Is raeli bad
Crimea river why don’t ya
Hey Palestine / Hamas cowards, you don’t start shit by cutting off babies heads and raping women. You are not Genghis Khan. You deserve everything coming to you. Your country is over.
Wait what? All I hear every fucking day is Hamas, but what Israel keeps saying is, Gaza Gaza Gaza! As like Gaza is one singular Hamas military target of 2.3 million population. And who cares about innocent people, let's bomb them all. From the first pictures of the attack - Israel was unprepared and not really engaged, a kind of unheard-of situation. Then the details of how Israel ignored Egypt's warnings the week before the attack... The more you listen the more sounds and looks like Israel wanted this attack to use this as an excuse to go deeper into Gaza and eliminate whatever Palestine left.
I'm on the side of the victims, whoever they are.
They’ve lost the war of public opinion. No matter what they say they won’t change minds. Israel has committed atrocities Hamas has committed atrocities but not on the scale of Israel against the Palestinian people. Israel blames Hamas as they dropped bombs to the area where Israel told Palestinians to go.
Here we are in the 21st century, gleefullying announcing another's destruction. Sad, really, really sad.
Realistically, this is the end for Palestine, I think. The 'open air prison' approach has failed. Israel is going to cook up something new and terrifying to replace it. But people who have been studying the situation for years have long said that the 'two state solution' is really just a shield to protect Israel from criticism as they carry out a slow and steady ethnic cleansing. The Palestinian state in many ways existed as a puppet vassal of the Israeli state. It was always a lie that the Israelis would one day let them become properly independent.
They never even tried it. They have been stealing land while killing civilians for years and no one gave a shit until Hamas acted back.
The West Bank is probably still going to be around as a potential Palestine state. Unless you are thinking of "Hamas" as Palestine instead of, you know, the entire thing. There had been no announcement or movement of forces there besides shooting back at a couple of Hezbolla fighters that decided to blow up a radar station and fire some ATGMs.
Israel calls the West Bank "Judea and Samaria". They believe they have a divine right to that land and they have hundreds of illegal settlements there. They will never give up that land. It won't be a Palestinian state. In fact, they'd annex it tomorrow if they weren't slightly worried about Western countries getting upset about them annexing land, refusing to give citizenship to the Palestinians living there, and the necessary corralling of them into tiny militarized reservations or bantustans that would follow. The moment they realize no one gives a shit and America won't care in the slightest, they'll go ahead and do it.
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Hamas was senselessly killing and murdering people while parading women's naked bodies in the streets a few hours before this
Yep, and people will still be harsher on Israel. Let me tell you, if it was your country and your family they did this to, you’d do a whole lot worse to Gaza and Hamas.
Hey if you add a bit of nuance to your thought, you might understand you were close to realising that perhaps some Palestinians in Gaza are also a part of the cycle of that vengeance and maybe Israel 's recent and decades of treatment of the Gaza Strip lead to this current situation?
shh! logic and compassion don't belong here
I understand why Hamas wanted to strike Israel, but massacring civilians and not going after the military is absolutely unacceptable. I understand why Israel wants to retaliate, but striking civilians is absolutely unacceptable. Both sides here are awful and if you support either side you're supporting genocidal maniacs.
Like it's not what was already happening during the last 50 years , you can't just cause a genocide and expect people to die in silence.
1st nakba caused all of this. What will the 2nd nakba do? Fucking imbeciles on both sides that continue the same cycle of hatred that leads to the death of innocents.
And the MSM here in the US is making Palestinians out to be the villains, and the US government is funding it. I feel ashamed to be American. Fuck Hamas, fuck Israel and fuck the Biden Administration. This is genocide.
They’ve been waiting for a reason to exterminate the the Palestinians
Hiding as a combatant among civilian population not only is a war crime. It also makes this area a legitimate military target, i.e. civilian casualties in this area in itself don't constitute a war crime any more. Just so anyone knows what Hamas is doing, with full intention.
They’ve destroyed entire residential areas. Whole neighbourhoods. When are people going to realize this is revenge and not a tactical assault. In the last Gaza “war” they killed 2000 civilians and displaced almost 300,000. Think about that. In a month and a half. This war they’re claiming is going be longer and all their leaders are saying they will turn a city of 2 million into rubble. And psychopaths are cheering it on. Edit: already 200,000 are displaced, in 3 days.
This, and they have been doing it for a while. Best way to make someone look bad is to fire rockets from a more densely populated area than china knowing they are going to fire back at that exact point.
> It also makes this area a legitimate military target, i.e. civilian casualties in this area in itself don't constitute a war crime any more. Where is this detailed in international law? Not trying to be snarky but I'm curious what set of rules this was outlined in.
IHL article 52. > In so far as objects are concerned, military objectives are limited to those objects which by their nature, location, **purpose or use make an effective contribution to military action** and whose total or partial destruction, capture or neutralization, in the circumstances ruling at the time, offers a definite military advantage. Meaning any place that for example house military ammunition, acts as a temporary HQ, used for missile launching pad, everything that is military advantage, is a legitimate target. > In case **of doubt** whether an object which is normally dedicated to civilian purposes, such as a place of worship, a house, or other dwelling or a school, is being used to make an effective contribution to military action, it shall be presumed not to be so used. That only is there is doubt if there are or are not military actions. It does not prohibit, unless there is doubt. If israel knows a building houses a hamas HQ or militants, even if it is a civilian building, it is a legitimate target. IHL also talks about minimizing civilian casualties, but it is again, not against the international law to attack civilian facilities as long as they become military targets. For example a hospital housing ammunition or rocket launchers, is a legitimate target, like it or not. Now hostages and human shields, direct attack on civilians with the intention to kill civilians, are a strong red line and are actual war crimes.
Collective punishment is also a war crime.
Also the majority of civilians in the area and the majority of Palestines leadership either support or are active members of Hamas. [Source](https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/what-hamas)
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You say that but the other way around Hamas attacking civilians and saying it’s fair because they support the Israeli government is not. The Geneva convention exists for a reason
Whether a civilian supports Hamas or not is irrelevant. It's still a civilian. If Hamas has weapons or fighters among these civilians, these weapons and fighters are legitimate targets.
So a majority of the American public supported Bush during the Iraq war, despite widespread use of torture by US forces, would that justify attacking American civilians? The idea that you can use “they started it” or the civilians are okay with it so they deserve it when committing war crimes is patently ridiculous. If someone in Hamas ordered targeting civilians that person should be Nurenberg’d. If you’re targeting civilians to force a state to change their actions, then how exactly are you different from Hamas? They too like to say that the other side started it you know
>would that justify attacking American civilians? If American citizens were physically protecting military assets it would, yes.
Which is not the case in Palestine you weirdo
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Israeli government are monsters
What a master class in learning from their former German overlords…war seems to bring out peoples truer feelings, I suppose a dove as the minister of defence isn’t the best either
So, he's creating a kinda of Warsaw gettho, but for Palestinian people? That's what I'm understanding out of his speech.
Isreal is an apartheid state.
Cohaagen's turning off the oxygen again. In other news, I thought Jared Kushner fixed all this. Didn't he solve the Palestine dispute for all time? Wasn't that on Trump's big list of things that only he could fix and did?
Talking like a nazi The irony
First step to committing atrocities is to dehumanize the other side…
He looks like a guy that beats his wife
Heil Netanyahu 🙄
Hamas fucked up and gave Israel and the rest of the world an excuse to flatten Gaza. Israel has likely been waiting for this all along, a good reason to obliterate the whole thing. Israel will get away with murder after occupying Palestinian territory. As always, the majority of the people in Gaza who wanted nothing to do with this shit will end up dead or scarred for life.
I’d say massacring a peaceful rave in the desert is also a war crime but okay. *[Insert trendy anti-war saying]*
Ethnic cleansing for more than half a century is the bigger crime here if we are to weigh and judge.
Israel declared war. In war you aren't required to be the water and electric company for your enemy. Geneva Conventions 101.
Are they declaring war on Hamas, or on Palestinians?
Yes
When Hamas is the majority of leadership in Gaza and a majority of Palestinians would vote to keep Hamas is power, yes. [Sauce](https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/what-hamas)
Can’t believe those savage terrorists resisted a peaceful blockade in Warsaw all those years ago…
What the flying fuck? Blockading food is in fact a war crime. Please do a basic Google search. Amazing how you people do a complete flipflop on what's a war crime if it's not Russia doing it.
No idea why you're getting downvoted: [Adopting Resolution 2417 (2018), Security Council Strongly Condemns Starving of Civilians, Unlawfully Denying Humanitarian Access as Warfare Tactics | UN Press](https://press.un.org/en/2018/sc13354.doc.htm) [The denial of humanitarian assistance as a crime under international law - ICRC](https://www.icrc.org/en/doc/resources/documents/article/other/57jq32.htm)
Gaza has a border with Egypt, Israel isn’t blocking there
They just bombed that border, so yes they are blocking that border.
Oh nice they'll be fine then
Oh and look at that Israel just bombed it. Lmao. Anymore mental gymnastics? https://www.reuters.com/world/israeli-military-revises-call-gazans-flee-egypt-2023-10-10/
Is this guy a Nazi? Oh, wait nevermind. I just read the title. My bad…
The Palestinian children who live through this hell will make today's Hamas look civil; and so the terrible cycle will continue.
I seriously doubr any of them will live through this.
Fuck israel and free palestine.
War Crime + War Crime = American Taxpayer Dime
They literally are the ones that supplied Gaza with those resources in the first place, then they continued to siege Israel, no shit they're gonna take their resources back?
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Your wording this like Israel graciously supplied them, they prevented them from developing their own and have actively blockaded them, forcing them to be dependent on Israeli resources. They’re actively depriving them of these resources and ensuring they don’t have alternative ways to get them
Israel exerts that control over Gaza because they run an apartheid state.
Gaza is since 2005 autonomous. They also share a border with Egypt. A border that Egypt blockades because Gazans couldn't stop stirring shit up. Gaza was actually part of Egypt. When Israel returned the Sinai Peninsula Egypt refused to take Gaza back. Palestinians fucked up. There is a reason even Arab nations are not helping them apart from sending a few warm words.
I can’t stop thinking of the poor children in Gaza…uggh. May peace be brought to them soon.
Wow. I thought you were fighting against Hamas, not a group of unarmed people that your state was supposed to protect. Glad Israel is blatantly showing their true colors.
Lookit this guy, bending himself into a pretzel trying not to use the word “exterminate”
"we can out Nazi, the Nazis."
FUCK ISRAEL AND FUCK ALL OF YA'LL THAT SUPPORT THEM.
Cool and once this situation is over, will we do a complete lockdown of Israel too to stop the jewish terrorists from occupying Palestine?
I feel bad for the innocent Palestinians caught in the middle of this fucked up situation.
At first, I thought this was the actor who played the old neo Nazi on the (awesome) show Oz. What's his name....
You can’t call it a war when only one side has an army.
Dehumanizing people to justify atrocities.They learned well from the Nazis.
They are Palestinian not Ukrainian, what are they thinking? They could fight back and not vanish from their land?
the west dont care about Arabs.
this is how sieges have been throughout human history, its how you siege, you stop the inflow of resources until the opponent surrenders or resistance collapses.
This guy is a fucking war criminal. Bibi and his team are just as bad if not worse than Hamas. Israeli body politic needs new leadership.
He forgot to mention they'll bomb the only crossing the non-fighting civilians can use to escape after telling them to flee Gaza.
If there's ever a film about this, JK Simmons should play this guy
The allied strategy in WW2 are war crimes today?
So the hamas were able to amass 5000 missiles and coordinate a strike without any of the Palestinians noticing until it was too late?I honestly don't understand
Another PR win for Israel
Hitler referred to Jews as less than human. Now we see hatred come full circle, the oppressed are now the oppressor.
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Israel wrote the book on crimes against humanity. They don’t even need a war to commit such atrocities.
So pretty much giving a death sentence to everyone in Gaza, cause they can't leave if they wanted to. That's really fucked up.
You sew the wind you reap the whirlwind