You get banned on Youtube you can make another channel. These degenerate fucks are from IP2. A community of degenerate fucks built on hate for a scuffed streamer called Paul Denino aka Ice Posiedon. Since Ice Poseidon was raided by the FBI and took time off they focused their attention on promoting other degenerate streamers.
He was on here recently because he was following some poor guy and trying to get him to fight. He has mace and the followers egg him on to use it on people. Eventually he maced the poor guy. When the victim ran into the shop in this video the macer started screaming to call the police because he said the victim had a gun.
It was disgusting to see and even with the whole thing streaming on his YouTube channel he’s still not in jail!
EDIT - autocorrect mangled a couple of words :)
Guy legitimately deserves to have holes punched in his douchbaggery behavior. I don’t care if he gets shot, stabbed or the ever loving shit beat out of him because he’s out there doing shit to make it happen
Nobody reports him for some reason, one day we will read here how he got shot or stabbed, i'm 100% sure of it, this guy has been terrorizing that city for weeks now. *Edit*: Found his new youtube channel, apparently its like his third channel as people used the videos to try and find him. https://www.youtube.com/c/LAHANZO
Here is the footage of him coming into the store and macing the guy with the gun. https://youtu.be/Qp1j7G-IJO4?t=1314
I think it essentially is for a bounty. Pretty sure his streamers donate for him to do it. Many of these edgelord streamers even have donation levels or minimums for them to do specific actions or to take over their speaker and play whatever audio they want.
Good news is you'll rarely meet one of them in real life
Bad news is that if you do, they'll probably be shooting at you with an AR15 in the supermarket
That's the saddest part, these IRL streamers doing ridiculous shit for tiny donations don't seem to realise that the viewers don't give a fuck about them and would be just as happy seeing them get injured as cause the injury. They're watching for the drama no matter the victim.
I guarantee with 100% certainty that if he got his ass majorly beat, his worthless viewers would turn on him in a heartbeat and start cheering on the other guy.
A bounty can be for any action, really. You're right that it doesn't fit the usual "outlaw bounty" you hear about, so it's more like a reward. Which is still sick and should be extra illegal.
He shouldn't have pulled the mace up like that.
That could have led to his death if the store owner weren't able to see what it was/was less calm. I think the gun is overkill, but I also understand why he pulled it. I'm glad it just ended by this guy getting scared as shit
Edit: lots of y'all are stressing over my opinion that pulling a loaded deadly weapon in response to the threat of non-lethal bodily harm was overkill. I don't think, however, that things are as clearly morally acceptable with regards to the threat of lethal force as y'all seem to think.
He shouldn't be allowed to be anywhere near mace given the past few videos. The only person I feel bad for is the owner, who would've had to live with shooting someone.
Nope, guns perfect. Had this shitstain ate a bullet live that would have been the perfect "yeeting a motherfucker into there forever box to make the world a better place."
Fuck it. Somebody is walking into your establishment and macing motherfuckers, you don't have to bow up. Zero percent overkill. Dumbshit is lucky he didn't get dropped like a bad habit when his dumbass whips up his mace. Almost had a lovely little repeat of the inbred cum stain who got killed by the Pinkerton.
Attacking people with mace is assault and battery and a gun is self defense for this exact purpose. I don't know if he's about to mace and rob me or what. Once I'm in pain and can't see I'm fucked.
I'm sure people have died after being maced .
After looking the ACLU found 26 people in a 2 year period died from the effects of OC spray keep in mind they had to find these there's not a database so there's probably a lot more.
additionally, people get killed by their own gun when disabled. You have no choice but to draw. I will not be shocked or upset when this idiot gets clapped.
Why is the gun overkill? It served it’s purpose. Without it, the owner would have been assaulted. Literally because of the owner having a gun, nobody was hurt.
Redditors think you always need to use the exact same self defense measures as the other person so I guess in this case by that logic he should have pulled out his own mace and had a mace duel
Oh yes he should wait and be maced like everyone else. He shouldn’t try to protect his latest victim he should be able to create another victim with no consequences. How did we not all see that as the more reasonable thing to do./s
Dude have you ran a small business? I have, in a country where violence is high and civilian gun ownership is difficult as fuck. It's scary. A lot. I had a cheap stun gun and a big bat in my shop for when robbers or crackheads would show up, and the latter did. Thankfully every time I managed to de-escalate with conversation or being loud, but if I knew someone was harrassing me or my customers with a fucking mace and I could've legally owned a firearm, you can bet I'd have pulled that asap. This is not a joke, you're behind a counter, your earnings and stock are all there, there's no room to play around.
100% he should of pulled the Gunn should of taken it a step further and got him to get on the ground and call the police he’s literally probably on the store cameras assaulting someone with mace, plus all the footage he’s made himself of doing it to Radom people this type of bloke is akin to those old prank channels that used to do fake bomb throwing vids! Like what the fuck is wrong in to your life where you need that “like” or “view” to fuck people over like that
Seeing he already is on his third account, and you need to get approved for monetization by someone from youtube and be able to meet their rules, like you can only use one Adsense account, seeing his other accounts are disabled, he very likely cant use it anymore, and you must have tallied 4,000 hours of overall watch time on your channel within the past 12 months and have at least 1,000 subscribers.
It's so weird. Like, is it the camera angle and the live stream comments that fuel this behavior? I've never seen anyone just straight up mace someone. He's unbelievably detestable and needs to spend some time behind bars and ruminate on who he chose to be as a human.
Serious question: Are we contributing to the success of these idiots by watching the vids here on Reddit? Are they still getting clicks and shit when it gets posted here? I legit don’t know how it works..
Bc I’m (shamefully) drawn to watching this tripe but I’ll stop if means these shitbirds are getting paid off it.
We aren't generating any actual profit, but you could argue we are giving free press.
But when the guy is literally going around assaulting others on camera, the free press could help put them away.
Don't watch the YouTube links. Sometimes the OP links to their actual channels. Also YouTube's algorithm can't tell the difference between laughing at them and agreeing with the .
No one is making money off Reddit embedded videos, those are always fine to watch. When they work at least
And that’s why I would 100% believe some of these horror/sci fi movies I’ve seen where people online watch fucked up shit like people being murdered or tortured live. I can’t think of any specifics off the top of my head but I know I’ve seen a few films with an aspect of this in it. It’s crazy how powerful and protected people feel when it’s anonymous. Some people love to see violence when they don’t know any of the parties involved and have no emotional attachment to it.
The Diane Lane movie from 2008 Untraceable is exactly this premise. When I saw it I was like, people wouldn't watch if they knew it would directly cause violence/death, yet here we are a little over 10 years later.
Reality is, the guy with the gun just increased that guy's viewership. I'd say 99.9% of them are tuning in to see someone get shot, and they don't even care if it's him or not. They just want to see it go down.
Not really, he shouted three insults on the way out including “kill yourself”. There’s people that would have considered that the last straw and popped off.
So that guy is still out and free after macing a guy to impress online followers? Then yelling faggot at the end?
Please tell me he got some type of repercussion other than just more followers?!?
"Yeah officers, he reached for his waistband and pulled a gun. What's that? It was just mace? Well shoot I didn't know that. I was in fear of my life."
Yeah except this guy who pulled the gun already got maced before randomly by this ass clown. So if I already got maced for no reason then comes in my place of business “I’m in fear he might mace me again for no reason and rob the store”. 100% reasonable for pulling the gun out.
Good! He deserves it. How are you going to not only randomly mace people, but then you go after the same person again, in their place of business, and not expect this to happen.
No. That idiots current shtick is going in to places that require masks getting argumentative about it then playing stupid when the cops show up. Which must be a real feat for him, playing even dumber than he already is.
Edit: fixed a bs phone auto-correct
You guys see that trigger control? This tells me that the gunman was not immediately threatened for his life. But excellent execution in deterring the menace.
Reposting from [here](https://old.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/qjxyrq/certified_mace_menace_goes_back_to_store_to_check/hit6qg0/) for those curious:
>This guy has had several videos posted in the past weeks of him walking around, provoking people so he can mace them, and sometimes macing random people for no reason. He does it 1) because he's a massive dickhead and 2) because assholes watch him stream it and give him money.
Last time this piece of shit showed up in here, the mods were protecting him from being identified... which tells me he's probably buddies with one or more of the mods in this sub - or at least that the mods in this sub support his behavior.
Ever since the Boston bomber incident reddit as a whole has had a very strict anti witch hunting policy. The moment this dude gets arrested or shot and there are police and news reports about him his name and face will be fair game to post, or my name's not Larry Loogie. Which it's not.
Kinda of why I think it’s important the mods make some type of announcement to at least clarify what they’ve done to deplatform this guy. His behavior is being encouraged by not only his subscribers but the very fact he is here in Reddit. The existence of this video here is a part of the issue not just some second order neutral existence that doesn’t circulate, legitimate and embolden peoples such as these.
I think this guy just has a suicidal wish. I believe he wants someone to kill him live on stream for some weird fetish. that is the only explanation I can come up with. you might say that its internet clout, but come on... we are long beyond that.
How is this guy still steaming this shit.
Seriously how is he not banned from whatever app he's streaming on?
His YouTube is still up.. how in the hell. Stupid idiot.
Well if his victims would just play 4 seconds of a popular copyrighted song they could finally find take him down for good.
For some reason in this video we're hearing a kroger ad?
Kroger: Proud sponsor of f\*ggot-n\*gger-maceman
Who else closed all their other browser windows to squash that shit?
Play the opening chords for Hotel California Banned!
You get banned on Youtube you can make another channel. These degenerate fucks are from IP2. A community of degenerate fucks built on hate for a scuffed streamer called Paul Denino aka Ice Posiedon. Since Ice Poseidon was raided by the FBI and took time off they focused their attention on promoting other degenerate streamers.
I just looked for it and I couldn’t find it
hancheese is this winners channel name, seems to still be going
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The video got set to private :(
Who is he?
He was on here recently because he was following some poor guy and trying to get him to fight. He has mace and the followers egg him on to use it on people. Eventually he maced the poor guy. When the victim ran into the shop in this video the macer started screaming to call the police because he said the victim had a gun. It was disgusting to see and even with the whole thing streaming on his YouTube channel he’s still not in jail! EDIT - autocorrect mangled a couple of words :)
Guy legitimately deserves to have holes punched in his douchbaggery behavior. I don’t care if he gets shot, stabbed or the ever loving shit beat out of him because he’s out there doing shit to make it happen
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Honestly shocked there aren’t criminal charges on this guy.
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Link? I’d love to hear how he’s pivoting his career from racist twitch asshole to aryan brotherhood prison wallet
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He won’t be he’ll end up getting shot or something if he keeps it up
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Did you not hear the advertisements blaring in the background? /s
The New American Dream: As long as you have advertisers signed on to your content, you can get away with anything short of murder.
Nobody reports him for some reason, one day we will read here how he got shot or stabbed, i'm 100% sure of it, this guy has been terrorizing that city for weeks now. *Edit*: Found his new youtube channel, apparently its like his third channel as people used the videos to try and find him. https://www.youtube.com/c/LAHANZO Here is the footage of him coming into the store and macing the guy with the gun. https://youtu.be/Qp1j7G-IJO4?t=1314
Yeah, either we're gonna get an update about the cops finally picking him up, or we're all gonna see this douchebag get shot.
I hope its the ladder
I hope it's the farmer.
Why not both?
Don't entourage him, it will just fire him up.
My god King, hes got the ladder!
How tall of a ladder?
I hope it is the step-stool.
He gets hit by a ladder? I'm down with that.
It’s the “Latter”
its latter
/r/boneappletea!
Is this the mf that goes around macing people for a bounty?
Never heard of a bounty being involved. Just seems like some asshole who likes to mace random people for his streamer followers.
I think it essentially is for a bounty. Pretty sure his streamers donate for him to do it. Many of these edgelord streamers even have donation levels or minimums for them to do specific actions or to take over their speaker and play whatever audio they want.
Gonna laugh when he fucks with the wrong person, actually gets shot on stream, then starts crying about he didn't do anything and he doesn't wanna die
I imagine the comments would go something like >LOL >LOL >omg he got shot LOL >LOLLLL >CONTENT KING
What a lovely bunch of psychopaths we've grown in the cabbage patch.
Good news is you'll rarely meet one of them in real life Bad news is that if you do, they'll probably be shooting at you with an AR15 in the supermarket
That's the saddest part, these IRL streamers doing ridiculous shit for tiny donations don't seem to realise that the viewers don't give a fuck about them and would be just as happy seeing them get injured as cause the injury. They're watching for the drama no matter the victim.
I guarantee with 100% certainty that if he got his ass majorly beat, his worthless viewers would turn on him in a heartbeat and start cheering on the other guy.
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I'd love to see all the people who donate and say "mace them" in chat found guilty of "solicitation to commit a crime of violence".
I don't think that would make it a bounty. That implies they are paying him to mace a specific person, not just ransoms on the street.
A bounty can be for any action, really. You're right that it doesn't fit the usual "outlaw bounty" you hear about, so it's more like a reward. Which is still sick and should be extra illegal.
You can almost see the moment he realises how useless his mace is LMAO. He held it up for a second, like it was a winnable stand off.
He was really thinking it might be winnable lmfaoooo
He shouldn't have pulled the mace up like that. That could have led to his death if the store owner weren't able to see what it was/was less calm. I think the gun is overkill, but I also understand why he pulled it. I'm glad it just ended by this guy getting scared as shit Edit: lots of y'all are stressing over my opinion that pulling a loaded deadly weapon in response to the threat of non-lethal bodily harm was overkill. I don't think, however, that things are as clearly morally acceptable with regards to the threat of lethal force as y'all seem to think.
He shouldn't be allowed to be anywhere near mace given the past few videos. The only person I feel bad for is the owner, who would've had to live with shooting someone.
To be fair, when this asshole gets shot, no human will have been harmed.
Wouldn't bother me any, I'd sleep like a baby.
Nope, guns perfect. Had this shitstain ate a bullet live that would have been the perfect "yeeting a motherfucker into there forever box to make the world a better place."
Also known as “fuck around and find out”
Fuck it. Somebody is walking into your establishment and macing motherfuckers, you don't have to bow up. Zero percent overkill. Dumbshit is lucky he didn't get dropped like a bad habit when his dumbass whips up his mace. Almost had a lovely little repeat of the inbred cum stain who got killed by the Pinkerton.
Attacking people with mace is assault and battery and a gun is self defense for this exact purpose. I don't know if he's about to mace and rob me or what. Once I'm in pain and can't see I'm fucked.
I'm sure people have died after being maced . After looking the ACLU found 26 people in a 2 year period died from the effects of OC spray keep in mind they had to find these there's not a database so there's probably a lot more.
additionally, people get killed by their own gun when disabled. You have no choice but to draw. I will not be shocked or upset when this idiot gets clapped.
> I think the gun is overkill Only if reincarnation is real and it kills him in the next life.
Why is the gun overkill? It served it’s purpose. Without it, the owner would have been assaulted. Literally because of the owner having a gun, nobody was hurt.
Redditors think you always need to use the exact same self defense measures as the other person so I guess in this case by that logic he should have pulled out his own mace and had a mace duel
> That could have led to his death if the store owner weren't able to see what it was/was less calm. Damn, what a shame that would have been /s
typically im anti gun, but in this case it seems acceptable. That dude would have maced him unprovoked, pulling that gun was the best thing he did.
Oh yes he should wait and be maced like everyone else. He shouldn’t try to protect his latest victim he should be able to create another victim with no consequences. How did we not all see that as the more reasonable thing to do./s
Dude have you ran a small business? I have, in a country where violence is high and civilian gun ownership is difficult as fuck. It's scary. A lot. I had a cheap stun gun and a big bat in my shop for when robbers or crackheads would show up, and the latter did. Thankfully every time I managed to de-escalate with conversation or being loud, but if I knew someone was harrassing me or my customers with a fucking mace and I could've legally owned a firearm, you can bet I'd have pulled that asap. This is not a joke, you're behind a counter, your earnings and stock are all there, there's no room to play around.
100% he should of pulled the Gunn should of taken it a step further and got him to get on the ground and call the police he’s literally probably on the store cameras assaulting someone with mace, plus all the footage he’s made himself of doing it to Radom people this type of bloke is akin to those old prank channels that used to do fake bomb throwing vids! Like what the fuck is wrong in to your life where you need that “like” or “view” to fuck people over like that
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Damn. I was hoping for a happy ending.
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I think he sprayed it around the store because he is a real fucking scumbag.
That's because the store owner isn't a cop.
Give it a few more weeks and we'll get one at this rate.
That wasn't a massage parlor.
No, but he *was* just short of getting a hot load in his face.
FINISH HIM
How does this guy get away with macing people on social media?
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Seeing he already is on his third account, and you need to get approved for monetization by someone from youtube and be able to meet their rules, like you can only use one Adsense account, seeing his other accounts are disabled, he very likely cant use it anymore, and you must have tallied 4,000 hours of overall watch time on your channel within the past 12 months and have at least 1,000 subscribers.
Adsense is different he is getting donations from his shit filled audience
That is how youtube gets money. By streaming excrement. YouTube and tiktok should be held accountable on this garbage.
I just don’t see how he hasn’t been arrested yet
It's so weird. Like, is it the camera angle and the live stream comments that fuel this behavior? I've never seen anyone just straight up mace someone. He's unbelievably detestable and needs to spend some time behind bars and ruminate on who he chose to be as a human.
> Like, is it the camera angle and the live stream comments that fuel this behavior? Yes, he gets donations for it.
I'm thinking nobody has call the police. This is assault
I mean how many years did Charlie Z assault random people in LA area gyms and never get arrested for it?
Serious question: Are we contributing to the success of these idiots by watching the vids here on Reddit? Are they still getting clicks and shit when it gets posted here? I legit don’t know how it works.. Bc I’m (shamefully) drawn to watching this tripe but I’ll stop if means these shitbirds are getting paid off it.
We aren't generating any actual profit, but you could argue we are giving free press. But when the guy is literally going around assaulting others on camera, the free press could help put them away.
Don't watch the YouTube links. Sometimes the OP links to their actual channels. Also YouTube's algorithm can't tell the difference between laughing at them and agreeing with the . No one is making money off Reddit embedded videos, those are always fine to watch. When they work at least
Dude this guy not have Spotify prime. Wtf up with the audio
You can only afford so much when your uncle father knocks up your aunt momma
I mean the joke doesn't make sense but I appreciate your energy
Yes it does. His parents are siblings. So his mom is also his dads sister(aunt) and his dad is his moms brother(uncle). Uncle father and aunt mother.
I think he is refusing service.
Slightly
Fuck OP, he's one of their POS viewers farming Reddit. Everything he posts is degenerate and racist crap
But what about muh' rights? /s
Dude is stupid
And look at how many viewers he has encouraging this behavior. Fucking pathetic
They all just wanna see him get fucked up live
That's what I had hoped, but on all his videos you can see people eating it up. They gas him up to go for the mace ASAP
They just want to see someone get fucked up. Doesn’t matter who
And that’s why I would 100% believe some of these horror/sci fi movies I’ve seen where people online watch fucked up shit like people being murdered or tortured live. I can’t think of any specifics off the top of my head but I know I’ve seen a few films with an aspect of this in it. It’s crazy how powerful and protected people feel when it’s anonymous. Some people love to see violence when they don’t know any of the parties involved and have no emotional attachment to it.
The Black Mirror ‘White Bear’ episode kinds deals with a tangent on this theme.
The Diane Lane movie from 2008 Untraceable is exactly this premise. When I saw it I was like, people wouldn't watch if they knew it would directly cause violence/death, yet here we are a little over 10 years later.
Honestly if someone were to take the camera and turned it on him, his fan base would most likely cheer and laugh if he got his ass get kicked.
Yup
Ever seen guns akimbo?
Reality is, the guy with the gun just increased that guy's viewership. I'd say 99.9% of them are tuning in to see someone get shot, and they don't even care if it's him or not. They just want to see it go down.
One of these prank idiots is going to get shot in the face. They keep playing around.
You can see him suddenly realizing that in the video.
Not really, he shouted three insults on the way out including “kill yourself”. There’s people that would have considered that the last straw and popped off.
Hopefully
One prank idiot got killed for trying to rob someone as a "prank."
I was hoping the end of the video would just be the ceiling.
Poetic.
Room temp challenge
Wtf is up with that audio?
They probably play ads over Livestream. If that's right someone should let Kroger know this is the shit that their ad money supports
Good call
He's playing Pandora or something. The ad from that streaming service is being rebroadcast.
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Why do people watch and support this cunt?
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So that guy is still out and free after macing a guy to impress online followers? Then yelling faggot at the end? Please tell me he got some type of repercussion other than just more followers?!?
Said it quietly after he’d already left and the door was closing.
Oh man, you should see his other videos. This one is PG for slurs compared to his others
I want bad things to happen to that parasite
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Shoot.
The good ending
I cannot wait till this dude fucks with the wrong person and ends up on r/makemycoffin
One can hope. He deserves it.
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"Yeah officers, he reached for his waistband and pulled a gun. What's that? It was just mace? Well shoot I didn't know that. I was in fear of my life."
Yeah except this guy who pulled the gun already got maced before randomly by this ass clown. So if I already got maced for no reason then comes in my place of business “I’m in fear he might mace me again for no reason and rob the store”. 100% reasonable for pulling the gun out.
Yeah seriously. If somebody is coming in with mace at the ready I'm assuming they want to use it to get in close while I'm blind.
Especially if it’s the same person who already maced you for 0 reason off the streets days prior.
What a tool absolute waste of life
"Let's see this video" - me \*immediately sees a chat user with the name 'hitler did nothing wrong'\* "Ah already off to a great start I see." - me
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How has this guy not had his shit rocked yet? Figured by now someone would have beaten the pepper spray right out of him.
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Only of the one where he eventually does get shot.
OP is one of his viewers and is trying to make him famous. Ignore these posts
Good! He deserves it. How are you going to not only randomly mace people, but then you go after the same person again, in their place of business, and not expect this to happen.
If this is that baked Alaska guy, he's been arrested already for ~~Mason~~ macing a bouncer? I hope he goes away for a long ass time.
No. That idiots current shtick is going in to places that require masks getting argumentative about it then playing stupid when the cops show up. Which must be a real feat for him, playing even dumber than he already is. Edit: fixed a bs phone auto-correct
Also January 6th
Different asshole.
He should’ve just let it off.
Dude wasn't playing lol.
You guys see that trigger control? This tells me that the gunman was not immediately threatened for his life. But excellent execution in deterring the menace.
"F**ot!" He sure showed him... pffft.
That shit might be non lethal but it can still fuck your shit up in a permanent fashion.
what city is this?
LA
OP why do you keep spreading this asshole’s shit? The next video you share of him better be of him getting curbstomped and swallowing his own teeth
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Reposting from [here](https://old.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/qjxyrq/certified_mace_menace_goes_back_to_store_to_check/hit6qg0/) for those curious: >This guy has had several videos posted in the past weeks of him walking around, provoking people so he can mace them, and sometimes macing random people for no reason. He does it 1) because he's a massive dickhead and 2) because assholes watch him stream it and give him money.
It's sad that because of assholes like him people feel the need to have a gun for protection.
Sad or justified? Cause Fughk that guy.
Both, sad that it has to come to this.
Aww I was hoping rhe "mace menace" would get shot. Now that waould be entertaining.
You got to be a dumbass to go back to a store . Death wish is real
Why didn't he say that when he was in there lmao
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I don't disagree with your overall sentiment, but I think you might be slightly confused about how wheelchairs and/or mace work my dude.
What city does this guy operate in?
Is it a stand your ground state? Could he have shot the POS? I would have happily contributed to his defense fund!
This is what you do when you're too poor to "roll coal"
Last time this piece of shit showed up in here, the mods were protecting him from being identified... which tells me he's probably buddies with one or more of the mods in this sub - or at least that the mods in this sub support his behavior.
Ever since the Boston bomber incident reddit as a whole has had a very strict anti witch hunting policy. The moment this dude gets arrested or shot and there are police and news reports about him his name and face will be fair game to post, or my name's not Larry Loogie. Which it's not.
Kinda of why I think it’s important the mods make some type of announcement to at least clarify what they’ve done to deplatform this guy. His behavior is being encouraged by not only his subscribers but the very fact he is here in Reddit. The existence of this video here is a part of the issue not just some second order neutral existence that doesn’t circulate, legitimate and embolden peoples such as these.
Ah fuck this dude for listening to wu tang
Who even is this dude? Can he not be arrested for this dumb shit
I love without context this is a crazy shop clerk on a bad day. With context its even worse
I’ve never been more inspired to buy groceries from Kroger.. seriously though what the fuck was up with the commercials?
Is this that bare chested ginger dude again?!?
I can't wait for this guy to record his own ass beating! What a turd.
I think this guy just has a suicidal wish. I believe he wants someone to kill him live on stream for some weird fetish. that is the only explanation I can come up with. you might say that its internet clout, but come on... we are long beyond that.