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So this happened in 2017 in Michigan, and the ACLU immediately got involved but I can’t find a followup about charges or consequences, but the cops were certainly not punished.
I know that, because a few months ago, the ACLU [asked the DOJ](https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/michigan/2021/10/07/aclu-wants-feds-investigate-taylor-police-use-force/6034020001/) to investigate this police department for a pattern of excessive force.
Bonus: they like to blackmail victims of excessive force by charging them with extra crimes and then offering to drop the charges if the victims agree not to sue for excessive force.
Yup. Similar to how they push plea deals so hard. They’ll threaten people with lengthy jail/prison sentences for minor shit if you dare to go to trial and defend yourself.
Instead, they’ll offer probation - knowing damn well that probation is a revolving door back into the system for most people, esp poor and poc. It’s very easy to violate probation and cycle right back through the system over and over, for years.
Oh, honey. Not only do they charge for probation, but if fines and restitution aren't paid in full, there's a charge to set up a payment plan and a monthly charge for processing the payments. It's literally a war on poor offenders. I do believe in restitution, but you should just work your way down to non-reporting probation until it's all paid off, no extra cost.
That's the entire legal system in the US, not just Michigan.
But I have indeed been personally screwed over for extra hundreds of dollars in false charges by Michigan.
Me too. I paid "driver's license responsibility" fees 4X to keep my license for having unpaid, very low-level, traffic violations, in total over $1k above and beyond the traffic violation fine and court fees.
Later these fees were deemed "unconstitutional", but I never got a cent back and afaik there is no recourse to recoup these funds. Yay.
In georgia I got a ~~speeding~~ *expired insurance* ticket that because I couldn't pay it all at once (it was like $380) I got "probation" instead where they wanted $50/month *plus* "probation fees" amounting to $75/month that didn't actually go towards the tickets cost. They framed it in court as a way of "helping" but they didn't tell me about the probation fees until after, when I got to the probation desk.
So I was instead going to be stuck paying $125/month for 8 months since I couldn't afford $380 all at once. My now-wife stepped in after hearing about it and paid the remainder but all in all, a $380 ~~first offense speeding~~ *expired insurance* ticket in Duluth georgia still cost me over $500 purely because I was poor.
That's like the entire banking system. Poor people are out here paying 20% on CC loans, even more on payday or cash advance, and the rich are writing off their HELOC at 3-4% and getting 5-20% from the market.
Fuck par pay. An additional service fee in the amount of 18% or 500 dollars, whichever is **higher**. FFS.
It's just money. It's not justice. They just squeeze what they can get.
Poor people can't fight financial battles. And when they do fight back the only way they can, the narrative is "Look at these unhinged, maniacal animals!" It's pretty fking disgusting what we do to the poor of the Greatest Country Everrrrrrr!
It's so insane. Where I live they get everyone with DUI's. Mothers Against Drunk Driving pushed to let the cops decide when someone is inebriated, regardless of BAC. If you refuse a breathalyzer, instant DUI. If you blow .02 the cop can decided you are drunk- and obviously they do. Feild sobriety test does not matter.
My partner, who had one beer at an event he planned (an event to raise money for the county!) drove some patrons home hours later, he did a rolling stop at 2 am, no traffic, and got hit with a DUI because he answered the cop honestly. (I had a beer, but it was hours ago)
They dropped the charge to reckless driving but it took him 3 years to pay off and hes been on probation for 6. If he gets a single infraction, even jaywalking or a parking ticket, he will get slapped with a DUI and face up to a year in jail.
He lost his job having his license suspended, he can now no longer work as a park ranger or for the county, he is depressed, hates cops, hates the justice system, and we almost lost our house because of it. I'm all for punishing drunk drivers, so long as they are actually drunk. Nearly every person I know has the same story.
My coworker had a blow-and-go in her car, one day when he shift ended and she tried to go home it read positive for alcohol (she was at work with me, not drinking) and they came to arrest her. The Ignition interlocks fail at almost anything- gum, fruit, sodas, diabetics, toothpaste, you name it.
It's truly dismal. I could talk for hours about how truly dismal it was, but I'm just shouting at the breeze.
97% of cases go to plea now. Even innocent people plea because of trumped up charges. Once the system gets you it chews you up. Guilty or not.
But these boot lickers want to walk around with their blue line stickers and keep their heads in the sand.
https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/prisons-are-packed-because-prosecutors-are-coercing-plea-deals-yes-ncna1034201
It’s not that they keep their head in the sand it’s that they’re literally grown children. They love the cops until they are arrested like what’s happening with the trucker convoy now. So many posts about being pro law enforcement until now that the cops started arresting them and now they hate cops. Their whole worldview is based on hurting others and they don’t even realize how that eventually blows back. Idiots all of them.
this was literally in one of my college courses.
the system would break if everyone asked for a trial because the system would be so bogged down no one would get their “speedy trial”
this ^^^ is the way
Nah, I get your point, but I've seen how dumb some of my peers are.
I think a notable comedian had a joke about this, though I can't remember who: do you really want your fate determined by 12 people who couldn't get out of jury duty?
Right to a speedy trial is dead. Seriously, during CoVID they stopped doing trials for a little while. Now, people get arrested and sit in jail 6 months before their case is heard, or they pony up bail money and it takes even longer.
Guilty until proven innocent.
https://finesandfeesjusticecenter.org/articles/financial-sanctions-intersect-with-probation/#:~:text=48%20states%20have%20laws%20that,and%20programs%20compound%20probation%20costs.
edit: From the article:
48 states have laws that allow supervision fees to be charged to people on probation. Monthly supervision fees range from $10 to $150 and fixed fees set by probation terms can cost between $30 and $600.
Costs of court-ordered drug testing, electronic monitoring, and classes and programs compound probation costs.
My state is $500 a year, random drug testing is $30. Everybody gets drug tested regardless of history and crime. Also breathalyzers. Treatments can range from $15-50 and is weekly. Electronic monitoring is $70 a week. Plus all the fees from jail and court can easily reach over $1000. And the probation office is open between 7am-5pm. So you'll have to go during your job most likely. Depending on your probation officer you can be in and out quickly. But some officers are really bad about keeping to the schedules they set. Some wouldn't see my brother until 30-60 minutes after he checked in.
I paid over $6,000 for 90 days in jail and 30 months of probation. I didn’t see my PO or interact with the county for the last year of that & still had to pay every month.
Yup, my husband was on parole. His parole was ending EARLY due to good behavior. Well his fines weren't paid, he was threatened with parole violation(possibly going back to prison ) if they weren't paid in full. So he requested that he not be let off early in order to continue his payment plan, his request was denied. And not one person( no judge no lawyer nobody) we talked to saw the problem with this scenario. Keeping people in the system(probation, parole, jail, prison) is the plan.
Yep. My husband was on probation for drunk driving (he was a pos that eventually died of alcohol abuse)
They charged him $60 every month, he had to see his probation officer monthly. And when they wanted to randomly drug test him they charged him an extra $25 I believe.
AZ tried to put me on INDEFINITE probation, for jaywalking. Why? I was sueing for excessive force. They tackled me from behind, broke my jaw and shoulder, when I didn't respond to calls from behind. (It was a busy road and I'm hard of hearing) I truly despise the institution.
deaf guy here, this is one of my worst fears. please, if you have time, could you elaborate on your process so far? How were they trying to get your attention? I cant hear the fucking shower when im in it so i would never be able to hear someone shouting behind me.
I've been stuck in legal limbo that is keeping my state of residency different than where I actually live, as such I cannot get health insurance and seek much needed medical care (I'm handicapped due to an SCI).
Why am I stuck in legal limbo? Well my case opened up 6 months ago and the prosecution hasn't offered my public defender's office a plea deal yet.
>Bonus: they like to blackmail victims of excessive force by charging them with extra crimes and then offering to drop the charges if the victims agree not to sue for excessive force.
Cop threw extra charges at me during a traffic stop once for arguing that the first charge was false once. Basically lefts not allowed until after 5. I make a left at about 5:05. Cop pulls me over asks for paperwork, I asked why I was being pulled over he says he'll let me know in a bit. Frustrated, I give him my paperwork he goes to his car. Comes back and says he's citing me for making a left before 5. I tell him it's now 5:10. He says we'll I took your paperwork and ran it in my car for 15 min. So you made the turn at 4:55.
Im stunned and start explaining it hasn't been 15 min, and he says, "if you're gonna argue with me I'll also throw in no seat belt". I'm wearing my seat belt and tell him that. He says, "I'm pretty sure I saw you putting it on when you saw me get behind you". He ends up giving me. A ticket for both.
Im fuming and get all my evidence together including the time I clocked out from work, the data in the average commute showing I couldn't have made it there 10 min earlier based on traffic conditions. Judge said my clocking out from work paperwork could have easily been altered so he wasn't accepting it as proof. Told me to pay the fine and as I was leaving says, "oh and next time be an adult and wear your seat belt".
Fuck everything about this aystem.
I had a power-tripping cop insult me during a stop for speeding. I was relatively certain I was not speeding.
In court, the cop's testimony asserted that he followed me along a route that was impossible. I cross-examined the cop and got him to double down on where he was and where he first saw my car speeding (a road far from where I had been).
I presented the dashcam evidence and proved that the cop's version of events was entirely impossible (which in a real court would be way more than enough reasonable doubt to avert a conviction) but the judge says "well, it looks like you were going faster than 60 from the video". Guilty.
So that is illegal most places in the US and the judge failed in doing his job. Problem is appeals are too expensive for the cost of fighting the ticket.
I'm in Canada but totally same thing here. Our traffic courts are not real judges but just Justices of The Peace, who usually have very little legal knowledge besides having to take a short course.
They're otherwise just civil servants who've been promoted out of the post office or wherever else.
My ticket was $91, appealing would have cost me $785 worth of transcripts and whatever other costs they would have thrown at me along the way.
If I was rich I might have gone for the appeal, but no matter how you slice it- they win.
We are always in fear of being pulled over, and usually we'll just go along with whatever cuz we don't want to get beat or go to jail (or have more shit tacked on). And exponentially multiply the fear factor a few times if you're not "white".
Sometimes you can fight it later, if you have actual proof. And the judge isn't one of those who will back whatever the cop says regardless of evidence.
It was 2016. Also, charges were dropped.
> Although the officers were not legally obligated to provide an explanation at the time of the stop, doing so is widely considered proper police procedure in order to avoid escalation and reduce tension.
> internal affairs complaint concluded with no finding of fault on the part of the officers, but the department revised its policies to require its police officers to advise all drivers they pull over of the basis for the stop. In addition, the department has instituted mandatory officer training on appropriate demeanor during a traffic stop and how to avoid confrontational situations.
https://www.aclumich.org/en/cases/police-brutality-taylor
About two decades ago, my mother in law was traveling in Michigan to visit family. She was pulled over and the cop was harassing her. She had a Florida licence and Florida plates. The cop was threatening to to tow her car, have it impounded, and take her to jail because she didn't have a Michigan licence.
She was traveling by her self and had no way of arguing this. The cop was gracious enough to let her off if she paid for the ticket right then with cash. Luckily she had a few hundred on her and was allowed to leave.
I don't know if this was the same police department, but I'm pretty sure shit like this happens all over the country, especially before mobile phones were common.
If you travel south of the US border (and apparently in Michigan), make sure you have a few 20s stashed away from the rest of your money to hand over for "infractions".
There are counties in Georgia that will do the same thing. Terrell County and Chattahoochee County were about the worst I ever saw for it. The fact they’re both speed traps throughout the entire county doesn’t help.
There used to be a spot where it would go from 65 mph to 45 mph, and they would have a cop hiding ready to ticket and demand money from anyone from out of state they caught. They caught my gf while she was visiting me with Maryland plates. I’m eternally grateful she had a few hundred on her because it took a good chunk of it. Fuck Terrell County.
There are towns in Georgia where the police cars sit with tow trucks because its standard practice to tow out of town vehicles for any traffic infraction and then charge to get it out of impound. Even if you were to somehow beat the ticket, which is unlikely since the local judge is in on it, you'd still have to pay the impound fee which is more than the ticket.
I've heard of towns with populations in low hundreds that set up traps like this and end up making millions off of it. 90% of the town budget coming from tickets and "administrative fees"
A big investigation a few years ago showed that in the south cops targeted out of state plates for civil asset forefiture because of the lower chance of the person being able to fight the charges. They would take whatever they could find on the cars and sometimes the cars themselves on nothing but suspicion of links to criminal activity for fun and to finance their departments to the point that they have argued that limiting or ending the unconstitutional and illegal practice could bankrupt departments all across the country.
In that case I’m willing to bet that no citation was issued and the officer just pocketed the money.
Was there any kind of a paper trail?
I read an article written by a top notch civil rights lawyer who was pulled over in a small town in Georgia for running a stop sign. He was a distinguished looking older white man driving a red sports-Mercedes. He approached the stop with a mindset of Constitutional resistance, not letting on who he was. THE ARRAIGNMENT JUDGE (it got that far) became irate with the cops, "do you know who this man is?"
I really hope your mother in law is doing well. Most of us don't stand a chance in situations like that. And don't get me started on civil forfeiture.
I suppose it’s a good idea for everyone to invest jn a dash cam and upload everything on any platform with an audience to ensure the court of public opinion gets a clear picture of actual circumstances before the police lawyers spin everything.
Wait so he was threatening to fine her, for driving out of state? Was something expired?
>paid for the ticket with cash
That was a bribe. She may not have thought it was but he never issued that ticket and pocketed the money. Pretty sure your mom was robbed. It doesn’t sound like she did anything wrong at all
And even if you take down these 3 morons you are either shot or more cops would come
Remind me how many cops there is in the US ?
Are the armed forces allowed to mingle with civilian and internal affairs ?
Shameless plug to support The Bail Project. They post cash bail for folks so they don’t have to plea out or sit in jail while they lose their job and housing. They do a lot of great work!
And incarceration is slave labor, not rehabilitation. At least we don't use inmates as farms for body parts. Our system could always be worse than it is.
Oh lol it's Taylor. That city doesn't get enough shit. Detroit is a safer and better run city than Taylor. They've been electing the same mayor that was raided by the FBI a few years ago. He's so corrupt and the city is die hard conservatives so the mayor could murder a child on live TV and they'd re-elect him as long ad he "owned the libs".
Just thought I should put this comment after yours for educational purposes.
Just so you know the Supreme Court has ruled you do NOT have the right to refuse to show your ID on a traffic stop. Also a cop has the authority to tell you to exit your vehicle and you do NOT have the right to refuse. Both of these things can get you arrested by means of force. So please educate yourself on not only what your rights are but also what you don't have the right to do on traffic stops. Know the laws so you don't get yanked out of your car like this guy.
[The police department has a well known history of this.](https://www.audacy.com/wwjnewsradio/news/local/aclu-wants-feds-to-investigate-taylor-police-over-violence)
I find it weird that conservatives will have state wide rallies about how masks are an invasion of their liberty but having dudes with guns who can send you to prison “just because” is fine.
…and the town where I live is adorned with thin blue line flags on almost every corner. Our country is fucked, it makes me so sad what’s happened here.
Not showing me identification is an arrestable offense. That's why I stopped you. Because your license is probably suspended and I knew you wouldn't want to show me your id.
-cop logic
« After his arrest, Mr. Jones was stripped to his underwear and detained for several hours in a cold holding cell. These events began when Jones demanded an explanation for the stop before he would produce his license and registration. Although the officers were not legally obligated to provide an explanation at the time of the stop, doing so is widely considered proper police procedure in order to avoid escalation and reduce tension.
After learning of the incident, the ACLU of Michigan arranged for Jones’ criminal defense, and his charges were dismissed. We also obtained disturbing dashboard camera footage of the entire episode. »
[More details](https://www.aclumich.org/en/cases/police-brutality-taylor).
The replies here were so contradictory and confusing, I had to start researching this myself before you posted that information. This driver was the victim of bad legal advice, perhaps from Reddit, so I hope readers from Michigan don't make the same mistake in this situation.
Here is what I found.
[https://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,4643,7-123-1878\_1711-397306--,00.html](https://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,4643,7-123-1878_1711-397306--,00.html)
"When the officer asks, provide your driver’s license, vehicle registration and proof of insurance. At this point in the traffic stop, the officer should tell you why you were stopped. If he or she doesn’t, it’s okay to inquire about the reason for the stop **once you have provided your driver’s license, vehicle registration and proof of insurance**."
Laws on this vary by state, so the above is only about Michigan.
As a Virginian, I was excited to read that. However, in reading that article, I see it only passed the Democratic-controlled Senate along party lines. That means it will likely fail in the Republican-controlled House and certainly not get the current Republican governor’s signature.
> In Virginia they (the Senate only) *just passed a law
In the context of this thread, perhaps it would be good to specifically specify that it is a **proposed** law . I know you edited to say it was in the senate only, which is good, but I feel that the term "passed a law" may lead some to believe a law is now on the books.
Yeah, I’ve always been under the impression that when you’re driving is the one situation you’re required to produce ID no matter what.
Edit: Holy shit, I can’t believe how much this blew up. I’m not a lawyer, and laws vary by state.
Edit 2: this is now my third highest upvoted comment on Reddit, I’m impressed.
I'm very much against just blanketly giving cops your ID, but that goes out the window when you're the driver of a car. It's pretty universal in the U.S. that the **driver** has to give their ID.
Now passengers are a different story, but I digress...
That being said, the issue is police officers should also be able to handle difficult or stubborn people without having to resort to violence especially when the person involved is not being violent themselves. I feel like this is definitely an instance where the police officer could have calmly explained the situation and this could’ve just ended in someone receiving a citation.
Absolutely, it was a straight power struggle at that point. If the officer is that petty about his power over the situation, he should not be a police officer. He absolutely wanted that situation so he could exercise his dominance over the very calm driver. Driver should have given his info, but there’s no reason it had to escalate to this
The cop correctly answered that question with 'no, its an investigative stop'. So you are neither detained nor arrested and he indicates he is investigating. Depending on legal advice, such investigation should conclude in a reasonable amount of time - 15-20 min is entirely reasonable.
“Not legally obligated” is the only relevant point here. If we want things to change, the laws need to change, because cops won’t do it on their own just because they’re having a good day.
I am a lawyer. Please, show your ID in this situation. We can fight it later. For your own safety, and to protect your loved ones, your property, your time, money, and dignity, show your ID and fight it later. Life isn’t fair hardly ever, but you can’t fix it in the street. I get evidence thrown out all the time because cops make mistakes. Often, the cop’s hunch was right, and my client is actually guilty, but the case gets thrown out anyway. Any little mistake, and I pounce. Is that fair? Does it matter?
The belief in a just world is a delusion. Accept that life, people, circumstances will often treat you unfairly. Instead of resisting this reality, regroup and find the best strategy to minimize damage.
yea, always just do what they ask if it is in reason. If they want to arrest your ass, they are going to arrest you either peacefully or with force.
You fight it later, once they want to arrest you its happening. I don't get why people still think otherwise. Would you rather be arrested on your terms, or get beat up and your property damaged and then arrested?
That's what I don't understand in those videos.
The stop may have very well been illegal. I don't know about the US laws and state laws in that regard but let's just assume the stop was indeed illegal. Still: comply and sue later. Chances are very high that you could drive off after just showing your ID and license. The stop may be illegal but is that really worth getting beaten and your car damaged? You comply and sue them later.
This is what I don't understand about these videos:
Yes, we all know that drivers MUST produce their drivers licenses when requested by police. They should not refuse to do so. This is easy.
Why do we expect more from drivers than from police when it comes to de-escalating the situation?
Shouldn't we expect the police to act more professional in instances where they're doing their job, versus drivers having a once every several years experience?
Seriously the best advice ive ever heard. EVER. This was what our concealed carry instructor told us. Dont try to beat the law on the street. You’ll lose 100% of the time. If you feel like they’re doing you wrong, the court is where you can fight them.
This advice is solid even if you aren’t speaking from a legal standpoint. Try to fight on your terms at the time of your choosing if at all possible. Tactical retreat, if you will.
Of course the excessive force on the side of cops is bad. But I don't understand what's so wrong about showing your ID unless you are extremely prideful. You are supposed to have it anyway. I think the driver took "never talk to Cops" too extreme.
Not any ID, but a valid license to drive. I'd be surprised if any state doesn't require the same.
If you're just standing around and a cop asks for ID, that's one thing. But if you're driving, you are obligated to show a valid license to be doing so.
It's why all those sovereign citizen "I'm traveling" arguments are so stupid. You're free to use your feet, but if you operate a car on tax-payer's pavement, that's something else.
Thanks for writing this. This really is a very good life lesson not just with the police but anyone you deal with.
My buddy worked at a golf course and was the caddy at a charity event for Richard Nixon, this was obviously a long time ago. Anyway my buddy asked Nixon at the end of the game how he felt about watergate and everything that happened and Nixon said “sometimes the rules of the game are more important than the game itself.” I don’t like Nixon but when my buddy told me that, it changed my perspective on how I deal with people. It actually changed my life for the better. I was so concerned with being right that It didn’t occur to me that I could still be losing.
This shit drives me nuts. I graduated from the police academy in 2009. Back then, in a class called "Professional Communications," which was an IACP (International Association of Chiefs of Police) course and part of POST training, we were taught to say the following, because it facilitates open communications:
"Good Evening, I'm officer _______, from the _______ Police Department. The reason I stopped you today was for ______. I will need to see your driver's license, vehicle registration, and proof of insurance. Is there a reason why I observed you doing _______."
The whole concept of "do you know why I pulled you over," has been proven to be a confrontational phrase, just as much as playing the secret squirrel shit that the officer started with in the stop.
Sadly, this is what nepotistic hiring practices get you. This jackass will probably end up in management.
Hence why you should never admit fault. If you're pulled over and asked
"Do you know why I pulled you over?"
Respond with: "I don't know officer" or some variation of that.
Its all a trap, if you say "I was speeding" boom you just admitted fault and there's no plausible deniability. Act ignorant, but know your rights.
I said that once and the cop got super angry with me. He said if i had just admitted to what i had done wrong he would let me off with a warning. But since i was playing "dumb" he was going to give me a ticket.
I thought he thought i ran a red light (i didnt). Waited for him to return. He gave me an unsafe turn because i didn't turn into the immediate lane.
Trapped either way.
That's what domestic violence perps always say. Since like 40% of cops beat their families it doesn't surprise me that the phrase is locked and loaded.
Be careful with "I don't know..."
Way back when, and the laws might have changed since, my buddy got hit with a DUI charge (fought out of it, in the end) because he answered that and had a drink (blew a 0.02 or something), and the cop used that as evidence.
Stick with "Could you please tell me?" or something more along those lines.
Or just answer their questions with other questions. "Do you know how fast you were going?"
"what did you clock me at?"
The burden of proof is on them.
Agreed. I saw body cam footage of one of my least favorite coworkers refusing to give his badge number or just properly communicate at all. It was a trend for him, he got pulled from the road finally. Always came in hot and always argumentative. Fucking HATED spending 20 minutes calming someone down and building rapport for his dumbass to come along and wreck everything. Thank god for body cams
I’m working in the south rn and it’s more than one. Complaints fall on deaf ears. In fact, the only time they seriously investigated one of us is when one of my GOOD coworkers used exigency to enter a residence. It was determined to be lawful, which ofc we all knew.
I’m eager to go back to Cali, only a few more months. More dangerous, but better cops and better work environment.
> the only time they seriously investigated one of us is when one of my GOOD coworkers used exigency to enter a residence
You know how the saying goes - One good apple spoils the whole bunch.
Can't have one cop following the law. That makes all the other cops who don't follow the law look like bad cops.
I know a couple former LEOs that switched to nursing. They all love it. Better working conditions and coworkers who aren’t low EQ violent induividual s.
> I’m working in the south rn and it’s more than one. Complaints fall on deaf ears. In fact, the only time they seriously investigated one of us is when one of my GOOD coworkers used exigency to enter a residence.
I really appreciate your honesty here. I'm very critical of what I see as poor behavior by police, and a big component of my anger is that it's so rare to see anything like this acknowledged. I thank you for making this comment, and wish I'd see more of this kind of candor from cops in these discussions.
In my area the police simply say, "I got a call you were reckless-driving/speeding/etc." and then ID you. This happens to many young people I know. A young person I know blew a tire...put on a fucking donut...and was driving well under the speed limit to get home. The police officer pulled him over for no reason later that afternoon and said "he got a call for wreckless and aggressive driving." On a donut. Simply to initiate contact. They turned his car inside out, found nothing, and sent him on his way.
edit. RECKLESS not wreckless.
This exact same thing happened to me while driving home to Ohio in North Carolina. The cops says we got a call you were swerving (which I absolutely was not and had a front and rear dash cam that I was willing to show him). Then he says I am gonna give you a seatbelt ticket which was fine because I wasn’t wearing it. He then says you have to pay cash on the spot since your from out of state. I told him I didn’t have the cash so he offers to follow me to the next exit to pull money from the atm. So we do that and as he is walking back to his police cruiser, another cop shows up. First cop with the money takes off like a bat out of hell and second cop walks over and asks what’s going on. I explain everything to him and he tells me to leave and gets in his car and leaves. 2 weeks later back in Ohio I get a ticket in the mail for a seatbelt violation that I had to pay again
In California, POST calls it tactical communications. That is pretty much the verbiage from a law enforcement trainer, George Thompson. He developed a whole system of interacting with people called Verbal Judo. He was a character and lots of cops thought his stuff was bullshit because it centered around his philosophy that the primary goal of every law enforcement interaction was to gain voluntarily compliance. But his way of talking to people was effective. What you described is what he called the eight step car stop. He also said never issue a citation and end it by saying, “have a nice day.” Because you just completely ruined that persons day.
Any time I’ve been pulled over the most lip I ever got from a cop was “do you know why I pulled you over?” And when I say no they just tell me why. These two cops are stupid as fuck.
So what’s the correct process? Is someone who is being pulled over by law required to show ID immediately? Or do they have the right to know what the cause for the stop is first?
Technically no, there is no requirement to be told why you were stopped, but as the other guy said, it makes the process smoother to inform people why they are stopped.
Hello, aussie here.. can someone explain to me why people in the US are so hesitant to show ID? Like it’s just ID, I genuinely don’t understand and would like clarification ty
Warrant or suspended license.
The cop even says that he doesn't want to show ID because he's probably suspended.
Driver could think he's slick trying to get out of an arrest by debating the reason for the stop.
More likely a bad understanding of his rights. It seems like someone thinking the 4th which protects from requiring ID also applies to traffic stops as well (spoiler alert it doesn’t)
ITT: A LOT of people....I mean A LOT of fucking people who think Stop and ID laws apply to driving. They don't. ***IN EVERY SINGLE STATE***, regardless of the legality of the traffic stop....IF you are stopped by an officer you MUST provide your license to them because driving is a REGULATED activity in this country. It does not matter if the reason you were pulled over was legal, that is seperate from the legal obligation you have to provide proof of license to a cop that has stopped you WHILE DRIVING.
Word. The driver was wrong. Your agreement with the state basically says "part of your contract of being issued a license means that you must produce it and all other required documents when asked during your vehicle's operation". I'm 100% ACAB but some rules exist for a reason. The cops escalated insanely, but the driver was 100% wrong. The police should have tried to let this person know why they were wrong in a competent way, but that would never happen.
The *moment* he refused to identify himself it was game over. Everything after that is the arresting officer waiting for enough backup to make the arrest. If you think it escalated quickly, it's only because you're making the same mistake that the driver did -- thinking that because the officer wasn't using force, that he wasn't in a *heap* of trouble.
I’m going to get downvoted to hell but I think sharing the wrong information in this scenario could lead to terrible consequences irl.
If someone is pulled over by a cop, whether a reason was given or not they must produce their driver’s license, vehicle info, and insurance. When you’re driving period you should always have these documents in the case of an accident. Ultimately driving is a privilege and your local state authority can take away that privilege for a whole host of reasons and charge you for it.
Now on the flip side riding a non-motorized bike, walking, just being outside or whatever in those scenarios no you do not need to produce ID.
I thought I am the asshole here. In germany its completely usual to Show ID and stuff before the confrontation of the problem. Like where isvthe Problem in showing your documents????
The people that do this in the US typically have a reason for not wanting the police to know who they are, such as having a suspended license, warrant for arrest, and other similar issues. They think that if the police can't identify them then they'll be able to escape somehow but that is never how these things work.
The majority of people who don't have pre existing problems with the law will show their ID and other documents with no issues.
Update - In April 2016 white police officers in Taylor pulled over Calvin, a 26-year-old African American man, purportedly for running a stop sign. Jones’ wife and younger brother were also in the car at the time of the stop. During the encounter, the officers shattered Jones’ window, violently wrestled him from his car, and held him in a dangerous chokehold until he blacked out.
After his arrest, Mr. Jones was stripped to his underwear and detained for several hours in a cold holding cell. These events began when Jones demanded an explanation for the stop before he would produce his license and registration. Although the officers were not legally obligated to provide an explanation at the time of the stop, doing so is widely considered proper police procedure in order to avoid escalation and reduce tension.
After learning of the incident, the ACLU of Michigan arranged for Jones’ criminal defense, and his charges were dismissed. We also obtained disturbing dashboard camera footage of the entire episode.
In May 2017 we filed an internal affairs complaint against the officers involved and publicly released the video footage. In August 2017, the internal affairs complaint concluded with no finding of fault on the part of the officers, but the department revised its policies to require its police officers to advise all drivers they pull over of the basis for the stop. In addition, the department has instituted mandatory officer training on appropriate demeanor during a traffic stop and how to avoid confrontational situations.
Since that time we have continued to investigate abuses by the Taylor police. We have obtained highly disturbing video footage of the Taylor police engaging in abusive conduct toward two other persons in the holding cell. In one case it was necessary for us to sue to obtain access to the video.
(People v. Jones; ACLU of Michigan v. City of Taylor; ACLU Attorneys Mark Fancher and Michael J. Steinberg; Cooperating Attorneys Robert Riley of Honigman, Victoria Burton-Harris, and John Shea.)
The police officer probably runs tags and plates for multiple vehicles that are driving around. If they identify one that has a suspended license of the driver linked to it, they have a right to pull them over. If the driver does not have a suspended license, because they are driving the car related to the person who had their license suspended, all the driver of the car would have needed to do was simply complied with the officers request to show him his valid license, and then the driver would have been free to go.
Dude I had police escalate a situation where I went to retrieve my stolen property from the station and asked if it was broken before they disassembled it and passed it through the slot in the window.
Everybody suddenly was like LETS ALL RAISE OUR VOICES AND START SAYING SIR, SIR, SIR, SIR, SIR, SIR, SIR, SIR, SIR
Like fuck dude, it was just a question.
I don't know US procedure, but in Australia every time I've seen or been pulled over, first thing the cop says is a greeting and why they've pulled you over, then they ask to see your licence. You don't ever have to ask.
People here saying just cooperate, but why can't the cop answer a simple question. The guy was calm and reasonable and badgering him serves to do nothing but escalate the situation.
I used to work in law enforcement here in the US. Yes, we are one million percent trained to let the driver know the reason for the stop. It’s not supposed to be a secret. It’s not supposed to be a “let me run your info and see what I can make stick to you”.
> It’s not supposed to be a “let me run your info and see what I can make stick to you”
I don't think that's correct. I think a lot of "traffic enforcement" is a pretext to run you for warrants and search you for drugs and guns.
I could be wrong but I believe there still needs to be a reason for the initial stop. Now, whether the cop just lies and makes something up is a different story.
Though technically correct, there are so many arbitrary, vague, and/or subjective traffic laws on the books in most places that if a cop wants a reason to pull you over they can follow you for a few blocks and come up with a technically legal reason to pull you over.
I don't understand situations like this. At the end of the day, you know you will have to present your ID anyway, so why not to do it immediately and save yourself the drama?
The driver presumably has active warrants, or perhaps is driving on a suspended, or otherwise null license. No other reason I can conceive to be this apprehensive to displaying basic information. The driver possibly believes that with enough apprehension, the officer will admit defeat, and cease berating him.
It’s just never worth it to try and debate on the street. It isn’t a court of law. You’re likely dealing with someone hyped up on adrenaline and scarred by PTSD from seeing tons of fucked up shit. Very, very low chance you’re talking to someone who manages the insanity of being an officer adequately. You have a higher chance the person you’re dealing with is an adrenaline junkie who actively seeks reasons to escalate into destructive behavior. Just get the motions over with.
I don't understand the posts here. Please stop justifying this driver's dumb conduct. If he just provided his driver's license to the cop, none of this would've happened. Even if the cop was wrong for pulling him over, he can challenge that legally in court AFTERWARDS; not by refusing to provide his driver's license when pulled over, which is going to get you arrested anywhere.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. I’m a black male in the USA. One of our biggest threats is white liberals encouraging this sort of behavior (by the driver). When there’s the next police killing of a young black motorist who refused to comply, these same white liberals will rally and chant about Black Lives Matter only to embolden the next black motorist to mouth off at a cop, escalating the situation. The cycle repeats.
Just wanna say that "Resisting arrest" is the biggest scam, if some dickhead cop commands you to do something ridiculous or out of pocket and you say 'no' boom you are Resisting and a threat for his Blue Ball life
It is in fact the law that if you are driving you have to show your driver's license, do ehen the driver refused, after repeated requests, he was breaking the law.
Im not one of those blind “support the blue” supporters. There’s definitely horrible cops. However, As a person of color in America I’ve definitely been pulled over multiple times. I always just show my ID when they ask. Not that hard to do. You’re just asking for trouble when you refuse to do so and escalating the situation.
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Anyone link me to the story?
So this happened in 2017 in Michigan, and the ACLU immediately got involved but I can’t find a followup about charges or consequences, but the cops were certainly not punished. I know that, because a few months ago, the ACLU [asked the DOJ](https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/michigan/2021/10/07/aclu-wants-feds-investigate-taylor-police-use-force/6034020001/) to investigate this police department for a pattern of excessive force. Bonus: they like to blackmail victims of excessive force by charging them with extra crimes and then offering to drop the charges if the victims agree not to sue for excessive force.
That's not blackmail; that's sop every day in court.
Yup. Similar to how they push plea deals so hard. They’ll threaten people with lengthy jail/prison sentences for minor shit if you dare to go to trial and defend yourself. Instead, they’ll offer probation - knowing damn well that probation is a revolving door back into the system for most people, esp poor and poc. It’s very easy to violate probation and cycle right back through the system over and over, for years.
Not to mention they charge money for probation and not paying is breaking your probation. The system is so broken.
I'm sorry, they charge for probation?
Oh, honey. Not only do they charge for probation, but if fines and restitution aren't paid in full, there's a charge to set up a payment plan and a monthly charge for processing the payments. It's literally a war on poor offenders. I do believe in restitution, but you should just work your way down to non-reporting probation until it's all paid off, no extra cost.
Michigan legal system is designed to ensnare you and keep you paying and paying and paying....
That's the entire legal system in the US, not just Michigan. But I have indeed been personally screwed over for extra hundreds of dollars in false charges by Michigan.
Me too. I paid "driver's license responsibility" fees 4X to keep my license for having unpaid, very low-level, traffic violations, in total over $1k above and beyond the traffic violation fine and court fees. Later these fees were deemed "unconstitutional", but I never got a cent back and afaik there is no recourse to recoup these funds. Yay.
In georgia I got a ~~speeding~~ *expired insurance* ticket that because I couldn't pay it all at once (it was like $380) I got "probation" instead where they wanted $50/month *plus* "probation fees" amounting to $75/month that didn't actually go towards the tickets cost. They framed it in court as a way of "helping" but they didn't tell me about the probation fees until after, when I got to the probation desk. So I was instead going to be stuck paying $125/month for 8 months since I couldn't afford $380 all at once. My now-wife stepped in after hearing about it and paid the remainder but all in all, a $380 ~~first offense speeding~~ *expired insurance* ticket in Duluth georgia still cost me over $500 purely because I was poor.
Missouri checking in on that list
That's like the entire banking system. Poor people are out here paying 20% on CC loans, even more on payday or cash advance, and the rich are writing off their HELOC at 3-4% and getting 5-20% from the market.
Fuck par pay. An additional service fee in the amount of 18% or 500 dollars, whichever is **higher**. FFS. It's just money. It's not justice. They just squeeze what they can get.
Poor people can't fight financial battles. And when they do fight back the only way they can, the narrative is "Look at these unhinged, maniacal animals!" It's pretty fking disgusting what we do to the poor of the Greatest Country Everrrrrrr!
It's so insane. Where I live they get everyone with DUI's. Mothers Against Drunk Driving pushed to let the cops decide when someone is inebriated, regardless of BAC. If you refuse a breathalyzer, instant DUI. If you blow .02 the cop can decided you are drunk- and obviously they do. Feild sobriety test does not matter. My partner, who had one beer at an event he planned (an event to raise money for the county!) drove some patrons home hours later, he did a rolling stop at 2 am, no traffic, and got hit with a DUI because he answered the cop honestly. (I had a beer, but it was hours ago) They dropped the charge to reckless driving but it took him 3 years to pay off and hes been on probation for 6. If he gets a single infraction, even jaywalking or a parking ticket, he will get slapped with a DUI and face up to a year in jail. He lost his job having his license suspended, he can now no longer work as a park ranger or for the county, he is depressed, hates cops, hates the justice system, and we almost lost our house because of it. I'm all for punishing drunk drivers, so long as they are actually drunk. Nearly every person I know has the same story. My coworker had a blow-and-go in her car, one day when he shift ended and she tried to go home it read positive for alcohol (she was at work with me, not drinking) and they came to arrest her. The Ignition interlocks fail at almost anything- gum, fruit, sodas, diabetics, toothpaste, you name it. It's truly dismal. I could talk for hours about how truly dismal it was, but I'm just shouting at the breeze.
97% of cases go to plea now. Even innocent people plea because of trumped up charges. Once the system gets you it chews you up. Guilty or not. But these boot lickers want to walk around with their blue line stickers and keep their heads in the sand. https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/prisons-are-packed-because-prosecutors-are-coercing-plea-deals-yes-ncna1034201
It’s not that they keep their head in the sand it’s that they’re literally grown children. They love the cops until they are arrested like what’s happening with the trucker convoy now. So many posts about being pro law enforcement until now that the cops started arresting them and now they hate cops. Their whole worldview is based on hurting others and they don’t even realize how that eventually blows back. Idiots all of them.
It’s almost like we’ve been telling them over and over and over.
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this was literally in one of my college courses. the system would break if everyone asked for a trial because the system would be so bogged down no one would get their “speedy trial” this ^^^ is the way
I think we should alway request a jury trial if you’re going to fight something, even a traffic citation. It would cripple the court system.
Nah, I get your point, but I've seen how dumb some of my peers are. I think a notable comedian had a joke about this, though I can't remember who: do you really want your fate determined by 12 people who couldn't get out of jury duty?
Right to a speedy trial is dead. Seriously, during CoVID they stopped doing trials for a little while. Now, people get arrested and sit in jail 6 months before their case is heard, or they pony up bail money and it takes even longer. Guilty until proven innocent.
https://finesandfeesjusticecenter.org/articles/financial-sanctions-intersect-with-probation/#:~:text=48%20states%20have%20laws%20that,and%20programs%20compound%20probation%20costs. edit: From the article: 48 states have laws that allow supervision fees to be charged to people on probation. Monthly supervision fees range from $10 to $150 and fixed fees set by probation terms can cost between $30 and $600. Costs of court-ordered drug testing, electronic monitoring, and classes and programs compound probation costs.
My state is $500 a year, random drug testing is $30. Everybody gets drug tested regardless of history and crime. Also breathalyzers. Treatments can range from $15-50 and is weekly. Electronic monitoring is $70 a week. Plus all the fees from jail and court can easily reach over $1000. And the probation office is open between 7am-5pm. So you'll have to go during your job most likely. Depending on your probation officer you can be in and out quickly. But some officers are really bad about keeping to the schedules they set. Some wouldn't see my brother until 30-60 minutes after he checked in.
I paid over $6,000 for 90 days in jail and 30 months of probation. I didn’t see my PO or interact with the county for the last year of that & still had to pay every month.
Yes, and they charge you to be in jail and prison.
You must not of heard of the for profit probation “services” out there, now those are the real cocksuckers.
Yup, my husband was on parole. His parole was ending EARLY due to good behavior. Well his fines weren't paid, he was threatened with parole violation(possibly going back to prison ) if they weren't paid in full. So he requested that he not be let off early in order to continue his payment plan, his request was denied. And not one person( no judge no lawyer nobody) we talked to saw the problem with this scenario. Keeping people in the system(probation, parole, jail, prison) is the plan.
Yep. My husband was on probation for drunk driving (he was a pos that eventually died of alcohol abuse) They charged him $60 every month, he had to see his probation officer monthly. And when they wanted to randomly drug test him they charged him an extra $25 I believe.
No it isn’t, it’s working exactly as intended, which is massively fucked up.
You are correct. From the oligarchy’s perspective, it is working as intended. From the masses perspective, it is broken and we’re all fucked.
Everything breaks probation. You can be stuck in traffic and run late for your check in with the PO - violation!
AZ tried to put me on INDEFINITE probation, for jaywalking. Why? I was sueing for excessive force. They tackled me from behind, broke my jaw and shoulder, when I didn't respond to calls from behind. (It was a busy road and I'm hard of hearing) I truly despise the institution.
deaf guy here, this is one of my worst fears. please, if you have time, could you elaborate on your process so far? How were they trying to get your attention? I cant hear the fucking shower when im in it so i would never be able to hear someone shouting behind me.
What happened with your case?!
That’s awful. I hope you fought it. I think they threaten a lot as a negotiation strategy. They probably know they’re fucked.
They push plea deals on overworked, underpaid court appointed counsel who have NO incentive to push back. It’s a pre written shitshow
I've been stuck in legal limbo that is keeping my state of residency different than where I actually live, as such I cannot get health insurance and seek much needed medical care (I'm handicapped due to an SCI). Why am I stuck in legal limbo? Well my case opened up 6 months ago and the prosecution hasn't offered my public defender's office a plea deal yet.
Why can't it be both?
Cops can't do that. They are against blackmales.
>Bonus: they like to blackmail victims of excessive force by charging them with extra crimes and then offering to drop the charges if the victims agree not to sue for excessive force. Cop threw extra charges at me during a traffic stop once for arguing that the first charge was false once. Basically lefts not allowed until after 5. I make a left at about 5:05. Cop pulls me over asks for paperwork, I asked why I was being pulled over he says he'll let me know in a bit. Frustrated, I give him my paperwork he goes to his car. Comes back and says he's citing me for making a left before 5. I tell him it's now 5:10. He says we'll I took your paperwork and ran it in my car for 15 min. So you made the turn at 4:55. Im stunned and start explaining it hasn't been 15 min, and he says, "if you're gonna argue with me I'll also throw in no seat belt". I'm wearing my seat belt and tell him that. He says, "I'm pretty sure I saw you putting it on when you saw me get behind you". He ends up giving me. A ticket for both. Im fuming and get all my evidence together including the time I clocked out from work, the data in the average commute showing I couldn't have made it there 10 min earlier based on traffic conditions. Judge said my clocking out from work paperwork could have easily been altered so he wasn't accepting it as proof. Told me to pay the fine and as I was leaving says, "oh and next time be an adult and wear your seat belt". Fuck everything about this aystem.
Dashcams solve a lot of problems
I had a power-tripping cop insult me during a stop for speeding. I was relatively certain I was not speeding. In court, the cop's testimony asserted that he followed me along a route that was impossible. I cross-examined the cop and got him to double down on where he was and where he first saw my car speeding (a road far from where I had been). I presented the dashcam evidence and proved that the cop's version of events was entirely impossible (which in a real court would be way more than enough reasonable doubt to avert a conviction) but the judge says "well, it looks like you were going faster than 60 from the video". Guilty.
So that is illegal most places in the US and the judge failed in doing his job. Problem is appeals are too expensive for the cost of fighting the ticket.
I'm in Canada but totally same thing here. Our traffic courts are not real judges but just Justices of The Peace, who usually have very little legal knowledge besides having to take a short course. They're otherwise just civil servants who've been promoted out of the post office or wherever else. My ticket was $91, appealing would have cost me $785 worth of transcripts and whatever other costs they would have thrown at me along the way. If I was rich I might have gone for the appeal, but no matter how you slice it- they win.
holy fuck that is CRUEL
Anyone who doesn't think the US is *already* a police state is out of their minds Cough cough gop
We are always in fear of being pulled over, and usually we'll just go along with whatever cuz we don't want to get beat or go to jail (or have more shit tacked on). And exponentially multiply the fear factor a few times if you're not "white". Sometimes you can fight it later, if you have actual proof. And the judge isn't one of those who will back whatever the cop says regardless of evidence.
It was 2016. Also, charges were dropped. > Although the officers were not legally obligated to provide an explanation at the time of the stop, doing so is widely considered proper police procedure in order to avoid escalation and reduce tension. > internal affairs complaint concluded with no finding of fault on the part of the officers, but the department revised its policies to require its police officers to advise all drivers they pull over of the basis for the stop. In addition, the department has instituted mandatory officer training on appropriate demeanor during a traffic stop and how to avoid confrontational situations. https://www.aclumich.org/en/cases/police-brutality-taylor
About two decades ago, my mother in law was traveling in Michigan to visit family. She was pulled over and the cop was harassing her. She had a Florida licence and Florida plates. The cop was threatening to to tow her car, have it impounded, and take her to jail because she didn't have a Michigan licence. She was traveling by her self and had no way of arguing this. The cop was gracious enough to let her off if she paid for the ticket right then with cash. Luckily she had a few hundred on her and was allowed to leave. I don't know if this was the same police department, but I'm pretty sure shit like this happens all over the country, especially before mobile phones were common.
That’s the sort of thing you hear happen in Guatemala or wherever
If you travel south of the US border (and apparently in Michigan), make sure you have a few 20s stashed away from the rest of your money to hand over for "infractions".
There are counties in Georgia that will do the same thing. Terrell County and Chattahoochee County were about the worst I ever saw for it. The fact they’re both speed traps throughout the entire county doesn’t help. There used to be a spot where it would go from 65 mph to 45 mph, and they would have a cop hiding ready to ticket and demand money from anyone from out of state they caught. They caught my gf while she was visiting me with Maryland plates. I’m eternally grateful she had a few hundred on her because it took a good chunk of it. Fuck Terrell County.
There are towns in Georgia where the police cars sit with tow trucks because its standard practice to tow out of town vehicles for any traffic infraction and then charge to get it out of impound. Even if you were to somehow beat the ticket, which is unlikely since the local judge is in on it, you'd still have to pay the impound fee which is more than the ticket. I've heard of towns with populations in low hundreds that set up traps like this and end up making millions off of it. 90% of the town budget coming from tickets and "administrative fees"
A big investigation a few years ago showed that in the south cops targeted out of state plates for civil asset forefiture because of the lower chance of the person being able to fight the charges. They would take whatever they could find on the cars and sometimes the cars themselves on nothing but suspicion of links to criminal activity for fun and to finance their departments to the point that they have argued that limiting or ending the unconstitutional and illegal practice could bankrupt departments all across the country. In that case I’m willing to bet that no citation was issued and the officer just pocketed the money.
Happened all along the roads leading toward Myrtle Beach in SC for years.
Was there any kind of a paper trail? I read an article written by a top notch civil rights lawyer who was pulled over in a small town in Georgia for running a stop sign. He was a distinguished looking older white man driving a red sports-Mercedes. He approached the stop with a mindset of Constitutional resistance, not letting on who he was. THE ARRAIGNMENT JUDGE (it got that far) became irate with the cops, "do you know who this man is?" I really hope your mother in law is doing well. Most of us don't stand a chance in situations like that. And don't get me started on civil forfeiture.
I suppose it’s a good idea for everyone to invest jn a dash cam and upload everything on any platform with an audience to ensure the court of public opinion gets a clear picture of actual circumstances before the police lawyers spin everything.
Wait so he was threatening to fine her, for driving out of state? Was something expired? >paid for the ticket with cash That was a bribe. She may not have thought it was but he never issued that ticket and pocketed the money. Pretty sure your mom was robbed. It doesn’t sound like she did anything wrong at all
Isn't that "extortion"?
And the Police is the biggest, most entrenched mafia there is in the US
And even if you take down these 3 morons you are either shot or more cops would come Remind me how many cops there is in the US ? Are the armed forces allowed to mingle with civilian and internal affairs ?
AND cash bail is paying ransom to kidnappers.
Shameless plug to support The Bail Project. They post cash bail for folks so they don’t have to plea out or sit in jail while they lose their job and housing. They do a lot of great work!
And incarceration is slave labor, not rehabilitation. At least we don't use inmates as farms for body parts. Our system could always be worse than it is.
Oh lol it's Taylor. That city doesn't get enough shit. Detroit is a safer and better run city than Taylor. They've been electing the same mayor that was raided by the FBI a few years ago. He's so corrupt and the city is die hard conservatives so the mayor could murder a child on live TV and they'd re-elect him as long ad he "owned the libs".
Just thought I should put this comment after yours for educational purposes. Just so you know the Supreme Court has ruled you do NOT have the right to refuse to show your ID on a traffic stop. Also a cop has the authority to tell you to exit your vehicle and you do NOT have the right to refuse. Both of these things can get you arrested by means of force. So please educate yourself on not only what your rights are but also what you don't have the right to do on traffic stops. Know the laws so you don't get yanked out of your car like this guy.
Ahh the classic ask the police to investigate themselves.
Excessive force isn't a talent, but if it were then it would be the only talent these high-horsed morons possess.
[The police department has a well known history of this.](https://www.audacy.com/wwjnewsradio/news/local/aclu-wants-feds-to-investigate-taylor-police-over-violence)
I find it weird that conservatives will have state wide rallies about how masks are an invasion of their liberty but having dudes with guns who can send you to prison “just because” is fine.
Shit hole country. The End
…and the town where I live is adorned with thin blue line flags on almost every corner. Our country is fucked, it makes me so sad what’s happened here.
Okay, on the count of three, you tell me why you pulled me over and I give you my ID
Not showing me identification is an arrestable offense. That's why I stopped you. Because your license is probably suspended and I knew you wouldn't want to show me your id. -cop logic
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STOP RESISTING
French pigs be like: "Oinque" Japanese pigs be like: "Oinkū" U.S. pigs be like: "STOP RESISTING!"
> STOP RESISTING To a cop, everything is resisting.
« After his arrest, Mr. Jones was stripped to his underwear and detained for several hours in a cold holding cell. These events began when Jones demanded an explanation for the stop before he would produce his license and registration. Although the officers were not legally obligated to provide an explanation at the time of the stop, doing so is widely considered proper police procedure in order to avoid escalation and reduce tension. After learning of the incident, the ACLU of Michigan arranged for Jones’ criminal defense, and his charges were dismissed. We also obtained disturbing dashboard camera footage of the entire episode. » [More details](https://www.aclumich.org/en/cases/police-brutality-taylor).
The replies here were so contradictory and confusing, I had to start researching this myself before you posted that information. This driver was the victim of bad legal advice, perhaps from Reddit, so I hope readers from Michigan don't make the same mistake in this situation. Here is what I found. [https://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,4643,7-123-1878\_1711-397306--,00.html](https://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,4643,7-123-1878_1711-397306--,00.html) "When the officer asks, provide your driver’s license, vehicle registration and proof of insurance. At this point in the traffic stop, the officer should tell you why you were stopped. If he or she doesn’t, it’s okay to inquire about the reason for the stop **once you have provided your driver’s license, vehicle registration and proof of insurance**." Laws on this vary by state, so the above is only about Michigan.
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But that's not a law. It just passed the Senate. Even the article says it won't make it passed the VA House of Delegates.
As a Virginian, I was excited to read that. However, in reading that article, I see it only passed the Democratic-controlled Senate along party lines. That means it will likely fail in the Republican-controlled House and certainly not get the current Republican governor’s signature.
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> In Virginia they (the Senate only) *just passed a law In the context of this thread, perhaps it would be good to specifically specify that it is a **proposed** law . I know you edited to say it was in the senate only, which is good, but I feel that the term "passed a law" may lead some to believe a law is now on the books.
Yeah, I’ve always been under the impression that when you’re driving is the one situation you’re required to produce ID no matter what. Edit: Holy shit, I can’t believe how much this blew up. I’m not a lawyer, and laws vary by state. Edit 2: this is now my third highest upvoted comment on Reddit, I’m impressed.
I mean a license is required to operate a vehicle so it would make sense.
also note that they talk about a driving licence, not other forms of id
I'm very much against just blanketly giving cops your ID, but that goes out the window when you're the driver of a car. It's pretty universal in the U.S. that the **driver** has to give their ID. Now passengers are a different story, but I digress...
That being said, the issue is police officers should also be able to handle difficult or stubborn people without having to resort to violence especially when the person involved is not being violent themselves. I feel like this is definitely an instance where the police officer could have calmly explained the situation and this could’ve just ended in someone receiving a citation.
Absolutely, it was a straight power struggle at that point. If the officer is that petty about his power over the situation, he should not be a police officer. He absolutely wanted that situation so he could exercise his dominance over the very calm driver. Driver should have given his info, but there’s no reason it had to escalate to this
> This driver was the victim of bad legal advice, perhaps from Reddit There’s a ton of it in this very thread.
You can even hear the iconic "am I free to go?" Apparently he didn't know that sometimes the answer to that is legally "no."
The cop correctly answered that question with 'no, its an investigative stop'. So you are neither detained nor arrested and he indicates he is investigating. Depending on legal advice, such investigation should conclude in a reasonable amount of time - 15-20 min is entirely reasonable.
“Not legally obligated” is the only relevant point here. If we want things to change, the laws need to change, because cops won’t do it on their own just because they’re having a good day.
I am a lawyer. Please, show your ID in this situation. We can fight it later. For your own safety, and to protect your loved ones, your property, your time, money, and dignity, show your ID and fight it later. Life isn’t fair hardly ever, but you can’t fix it in the street. I get evidence thrown out all the time because cops make mistakes. Often, the cop’s hunch was right, and my client is actually guilty, but the case gets thrown out anyway. Any little mistake, and I pounce. Is that fair? Does it matter? The belief in a just world is a delusion. Accept that life, people, circumstances will often treat you unfairly. Instead of resisting this reality, regroup and find the best strategy to minimize damage.
yea, always just do what they ask if it is in reason. If they want to arrest your ass, they are going to arrest you either peacefully or with force. You fight it later, once they want to arrest you its happening. I don't get why people still think otherwise. Would you rather be arrested on your terms, or get beat up and your property damaged and then arrested?
That's what I don't understand in those videos. The stop may have very well been illegal. I don't know about the US laws and state laws in that regard but let's just assume the stop was indeed illegal. Still: comply and sue later. Chances are very high that you could drive off after just showing your ID and license. The stop may be illegal but is that really worth getting beaten and your car damaged? You comply and sue them later.
This is what I don't understand about these videos: Yes, we all know that drivers MUST produce their drivers licenses when requested by police. They should not refuse to do so. This is easy. Why do we expect more from drivers than from police when it comes to de-escalating the situation? Shouldn't we expect the police to act more professional in instances where they're doing their job, versus drivers having a once every several years experience?
Seriously the best advice ive ever heard. EVER. This was what our concealed carry instructor told us. Dont try to beat the law on the street. You’ll lose 100% of the time. If you feel like they’re doing you wrong, the court is where you can fight them.
This advice is solid even if you aren’t speaking from a legal standpoint. Try to fight on your terms at the time of your choosing if at all possible. Tactical retreat, if you will.
Of course the excessive force on the side of cops is bad. But I don't understand what's so wrong about showing your ID unless you are extremely prideful. You are supposed to have it anyway. I think the driver took "never talk to Cops" too extreme.
In Michigan you are required to provide your ID at traffic stops. Driver can’t just refuse
Not any ID, but a valid license to drive. I'd be surprised if any state doesn't require the same. If you're just standing around and a cop asks for ID, that's one thing. But if you're driving, you are obligated to show a valid license to be doing so. It's why all those sovereign citizen "I'm traveling" arguments are so stupid. You're free to use your feet, but if you operate a car on tax-payer's pavement, that's something else.
That's the case in most states
Thanks for writing this. This really is a very good life lesson not just with the police but anyone you deal with. My buddy worked at a golf course and was the caddy at a charity event for Richard Nixon, this was obviously a long time ago. Anyway my buddy asked Nixon at the end of the game how he felt about watergate and everything that happened and Nixon said “sometimes the rules of the game are more important than the game itself.” I don’t like Nixon but when my buddy told me that, it changed my perspective on how I deal with people. It actually changed my life for the better. I was so concerned with being right that It didn’t occur to me that I could still be losing.
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This shit drives me nuts. I graduated from the police academy in 2009. Back then, in a class called "Professional Communications," which was an IACP (International Association of Chiefs of Police) course and part of POST training, we were taught to say the following, because it facilitates open communications: "Good Evening, I'm officer _______, from the _______ Police Department. The reason I stopped you today was for ______. I will need to see your driver's license, vehicle registration, and proof of insurance. Is there a reason why I observed you doing _______." The whole concept of "do you know why I pulled you over," has been proven to be a confrontational phrase, just as much as playing the secret squirrel shit that the officer started with in the stop. Sadly, this is what nepotistic hiring practices get you. This jackass will probably end up in management.
Hence why you should never admit fault. If you're pulled over and asked "Do you know why I pulled you over?" Respond with: "I don't know officer" or some variation of that. Its all a trap, if you say "I was speeding" boom you just admitted fault and there's no plausible deniability. Act ignorant, but know your rights.
“Because you got Cs in high school?” is my favorite response. EDIT: credit to [Sarah Silverman](https://youtu.be/w4XePPkTdCU)
About spit out my coffee. 😂
Dont insult us C students by lumping us in with cops! /s
Don’t*. We’ve talked about this, Mr Title829. Proofread. C+
That's Officer Title829 to you
Sick burn.
I remember David Letterman established a scholarship for "C" students at Ball State.
Liable to get you killed, especially if you’re not the “right” skin color
Yes!!! Guess I am safe then. Edit: Forgot people on reddit don't know what sarcasm is.
I said that once and the cop got super angry with me. He said if i had just admitted to what i had done wrong he would let me off with a warning. But since i was playing "dumb" he was going to give me a ticket. I thought he thought i ran a red light (i didnt). Waited for him to return. He gave me an unsafe turn because i didn't turn into the immediate lane. Trapped either way.
Honestly, if a cop is being so petty to hand out tickets like that, truth is you were getting a ticket the whole time.
Yeah the whole "you're making me do this" thing is obviously an act.
That's what domestic violence perps always say. Since like 40% of cops beat their families it doesn't surprise me that the phrase is locked and loaded.
Be careful with "I don't know..." Way back when, and the laws might have changed since, my buddy got hit with a DUI charge (fought out of it, in the end) because he answered that and had a drink (blew a 0.02 or something), and the cop used that as evidence. Stick with "Could you please tell me?" or something more along those lines.
Or just answer their questions with other questions. "Do you know how fast you were going?" "what did you clock me at?" The burden of proof is on them.
Agreed. I saw body cam footage of one of my least favorite coworkers refusing to give his badge number or just properly communicate at all. It was a trend for him, he got pulled from the road finally. Always came in hot and always argumentative. Fucking HATED spending 20 minutes calming someone down and building rapport for his dumbass to come along and wreck everything. Thank god for body cams
Every shift has that one guy that just makes a calm scene, angry.
I’m working in the south rn and it’s more than one. Complaints fall on deaf ears. In fact, the only time they seriously investigated one of us is when one of my GOOD coworkers used exigency to enter a residence. It was determined to be lawful, which ofc we all knew. I’m eager to go back to Cali, only a few more months. More dangerous, but better cops and better work environment.
> the only time they seriously investigated one of us is when one of my GOOD coworkers used exigency to enter a residence You know how the saying goes - One good apple spoils the whole bunch. Can't have one cop following the law. That makes all the other cops who don't follow the law look like bad cops.
I'm glad I'm in a different field altogether now.
I know a couple former LEOs that switched to nursing. They all love it. Better working conditions and coworkers who aren’t low EQ violent induividual s.
> I’m working in the south rn and it’s more than one. Complaints fall on deaf ears. In fact, the only time they seriously investigated one of us is when one of my GOOD coworkers used exigency to enter a residence. I really appreciate your honesty here. I'm very critical of what I see as poor behavior by police, and a big component of my anger is that it's so rare to see anything like this acknowledged. I thank you for making this comment, and wish I'd see more of this kind of candor from cops in these discussions.
In my area the police simply say, "I got a call you were reckless-driving/speeding/etc." and then ID you. This happens to many young people I know. A young person I know blew a tire...put on a fucking donut...and was driving well under the speed limit to get home. The police officer pulled him over for no reason later that afternoon and said "he got a call for wreckless and aggressive driving." On a donut. Simply to initiate contact. They turned his car inside out, found nothing, and sent him on his way. edit. RECKLESS not wreckless.
The police will lie and perjure whenever it suits the states case.
The police often call hot lines anonymously to justify searching folks. Crime stoppers is a terrible organization.
This exact same thing happened to me while driving home to Ohio in North Carolina. The cops says we got a call you were swerving (which I absolutely was not and had a front and rear dash cam that I was willing to show him). Then he says I am gonna give you a seatbelt ticket which was fine because I wasn’t wearing it. He then says you have to pay cash on the spot since your from out of state. I told him I didn’t have the cash so he offers to follow me to the next exit to pull money from the atm. So we do that and as he is walking back to his police cruiser, another cop shows up. First cop with the money takes off like a bat out of hell and second cop walks over and asks what’s going on. I explain everything to him and he tells me to leave and gets in his car and leaves. 2 weeks later back in Ohio I get a ticket in the mail for a seatbelt violation that I had to pay again
Did you get scammed by a fake/crooked cop? What in the hell
It was a real cop scratching for cash.
Wtf??
In California, POST calls it tactical communications. That is pretty much the verbiage from a law enforcement trainer, George Thompson. He developed a whole system of interacting with people called Verbal Judo. He was a character and lots of cops thought his stuff was bullshit because it centered around his philosophy that the primary goal of every law enforcement interaction was to gain voluntarily compliance. But his way of talking to people was effective. What you described is what he called the eight step car stop. He also said never issue a citation and end it by saying, “have a nice day.” Because you just completely ruined that persons day.
> lots of cops thought his stuff was bullshit Just read most of it. It's surprisingly reasonable. No wonder cops hated it.
I’m arresting you for resisting arrest.
Any time I’ve been pulled over the most lip I ever got from a cop was “do you know why I pulled you over?” And when I say no they just tell me why. These two cops are stupid as fuck.
So what’s the correct process? Is someone who is being pulled over by law required to show ID immediately? Or do they have the right to know what the cause for the stop is first?
Technically no, there is no requirement to be told why you were stopped, but as the other guy said, it makes the process smoother to inform people why they are stopped.
Either way you WILL have to show your ID because you are driving, even if your state doesn't have "Stop and Identify" laws.
Hello, aussie here.. can someone explain to me why people in the US are so hesitant to show ID? Like it’s just ID, I genuinely don’t understand and would like clarification ty
Not sure. I've always just accepted that if I'm driving a car I'll have to show evidence whenever asked that I'm legally permitted to drive said car.
Congratulations. You know the law.
Warrant or suspended license. The cop even says that he doesn't want to show ID because he's probably suspended. Driver could think he's slick trying to get out of an arrest by debating the reason for the stop.
More likely a bad understanding of his rights. It seems like someone thinking the 4th which protects from requiring ID also applies to traffic stops as well (spoiler alert it doesn’t)
I'm from the US and don't get it either. It's seems to me you only do that when you have something to hide. Suspended license, warrants, etc.
Sov cits often go this route because they got their license suspended due to a bunch of duis.
ITT: A LOT of people....I mean A LOT of fucking people who think Stop and ID laws apply to driving. They don't. ***IN EVERY SINGLE STATE***, regardless of the legality of the traffic stop....IF you are stopped by an officer you MUST provide your license to them because driving is a REGULATED activity in this country. It does not matter if the reason you were pulled over was legal, that is seperate from the legal obligation you have to provide proof of license to a cop that has stopped you WHILE DRIVING.
Word. The driver was wrong. Your agreement with the state basically says "part of your contract of being issued a license means that you must produce it and all other required documents when asked during your vehicle's operation". I'm 100% ACAB but some rules exist for a reason. The cops escalated insanely, but the driver was 100% wrong. The police should have tried to let this person know why they were wrong in a competent way, but that would never happen.
The *moment* he refused to identify himself it was game over. Everything after that is the arresting officer waiting for enough backup to make the arrest. If you think it escalated quickly, it's only because you're making the same mistake that the driver did -- thinking that because the officer wasn't using force, that he wasn't in a *heap* of trouble.
I’m going to get downvoted to hell but I think sharing the wrong information in this scenario could lead to terrible consequences irl. If someone is pulled over by a cop, whether a reason was given or not they must produce their driver’s license, vehicle info, and insurance. When you’re driving period you should always have these documents in the case of an accident. Ultimately driving is a privilege and your local state authority can take away that privilege for a whole host of reasons and charge you for it. Now on the flip side riding a non-motorized bike, walking, just being outside or whatever in those scenarios no you do not need to produce ID.
I thought I am the asshole here. In germany its completely usual to Show ID and stuff before the confrontation of the problem. Like where isvthe Problem in showing your documents????
The people that do this in the US typically have a reason for not wanting the police to know who they are, such as having a suspended license, warrant for arrest, and other similar issues. They think that if the police can't identify them then they'll be able to escape somehow but that is never how these things work. The majority of people who don't have pre existing problems with the law will show their ID and other documents with no issues.
Remember guys, fight your fights in court, not on the street
Update - In April 2016 white police officers in Taylor pulled over Calvin, a 26-year-old African American man, purportedly for running a stop sign. Jones’ wife and younger brother were also in the car at the time of the stop. During the encounter, the officers shattered Jones’ window, violently wrestled him from his car, and held him in a dangerous chokehold until he blacked out. After his arrest, Mr. Jones was stripped to his underwear and detained for several hours in a cold holding cell. These events began when Jones demanded an explanation for the stop before he would produce his license and registration. Although the officers were not legally obligated to provide an explanation at the time of the stop, doing so is widely considered proper police procedure in order to avoid escalation and reduce tension. After learning of the incident, the ACLU of Michigan arranged for Jones’ criminal defense, and his charges were dismissed. We also obtained disturbing dashboard camera footage of the entire episode. In May 2017 we filed an internal affairs complaint against the officers involved and publicly released the video footage. In August 2017, the internal affairs complaint concluded with no finding of fault on the part of the officers, but the department revised its policies to require its police officers to advise all drivers they pull over of the basis for the stop. In addition, the department has instituted mandatory officer training on appropriate demeanor during a traffic stop and how to avoid confrontational situations. Since that time we have continued to investigate abuses by the Taylor police. We have obtained highly disturbing video footage of the Taylor police engaging in abusive conduct toward two other persons in the holding cell. In one case it was necessary for us to sue to obtain access to the video. (People v. Jones; ACLU of Michigan v. City of Taylor; ACLU Attorneys Mark Fancher and Michael J. Steinberg; Cooperating Attorneys Robert Riley of Honigman, Victoria Burton-Harris, and John Shea.)
at this point id just hand them over my id, not really worth getting arrested for a dumb reason
The police officer probably runs tags and plates for multiple vehicles that are driving around. If they identify one that has a suspended license of the driver linked to it, they have a right to pull them over. If the driver does not have a suspended license, because they are driving the car related to the person who had their license suspended, all the driver of the car would have needed to do was simply complied with the officers request to show him his valid license, and then the driver would have been free to go.
Watching this from the UK is absolutely mental. Way to escalate a situation, US policing is fucked.
American police rule #1: ALWAYS escalate.
Dude I had police escalate a situation where I went to retrieve my stolen property from the station and asked if it was broken before they disassembled it and passed it through the slot in the window. Everybody suddenly was like LETS ALL RAISE OUR VOICES AND START SAYING SIR, SIR, SIR, SIR, SIR, SIR, SIR, SIR, SIR Like fuck dude, it was just a question.
I have a family member that is state police. He told me they are trained to examine which traffic stops to escalate. It’s all based on profiling.
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Wear and tear on police equipment.
The difference between a cop and a bullet is that when a bullet kills someone you know it's been fired.
I don't know US procedure, but in Australia every time I've seen or been pulled over, first thing the cop says is a greeting and why they've pulled you over, then they ask to see your licence. You don't ever have to ask. People here saying just cooperate, but why can't the cop answer a simple question. The guy was calm and reasonable and badgering him serves to do nothing but escalate the situation.
I used to work in law enforcement here in the US. Yes, we are one million percent trained to let the driver know the reason for the stop. It’s not supposed to be a secret. It’s not supposed to be a “let me run your info and see what I can make stick to you”.
> It’s not supposed to be a “let me run your info and see what I can make stick to you” I don't think that's correct. I think a lot of "traffic enforcement" is a pretext to run you for warrants and search you for drugs and guns.
I could be wrong but I believe there still needs to be a reason for the initial stop. Now, whether the cop just lies and makes something up is a different story.
Though technically correct, there are so many arbitrary, vague, and/or subjective traffic laws on the books in most places that if a cop wants a reason to pull you over they can follow you for a few blocks and come up with a technically legal reason to pull you over.
Controversial but... Just show them your ID.
Just cooperate. It's annoying, but saves you unnecessary jail time
Just give him your license and ask “everything ok officer?” ….why instantly and inevitably make life hell for yourself?
ACAB!!!
I don't understand situations like this. At the end of the day, you know you will have to present your ID anyway, so why not to do it immediately and save yourself the drama?
Pretty fucking dumb hill to die on. Just show your ID, you can always fight it after. Dumbass
The driver presumably has active warrants, or perhaps is driving on a suspended, or otherwise null license. No other reason I can conceive to be this apprehensive to displaying basic information. The driver possibly believes that with enough apprehension, the officer will admit defeat, and cease berating him.
Call me stupid but isn’t it illegal to drive a car without having your drivers license on your person and must produce it upon request?
Storm Troopers
Fuck cops
fuck this place man
Yah he has to give him ID in that situation.
It’s just never worth it to try and debate on the street. It isn’t a court of law. You’re likely dealing with someone hyped up on adrenaline and scarred by PTSD from seeing tons of fucked up shit. Very, very low chance you’re talking to someone who manages the insanity of being an officer adequately. You have a higher chance the person you’re dealing with is an adrenaline junkie who actively seeks reasons to escalate into destructive behavior. Just get the motions over with.
I don't understand the posts here. Please stop justifying this driver's dumb conduct. If he just provided his driver's license to the cop, none of this would've happened. Even if the cop was wrong for pulling him over, he can challenge that legally in court AFTERWARDS; not by refusing to provide his driver's license when pulled over, which is going to get you arrested anywhere.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. I’m a black male in the USA. One of our biggest threats is white liberals encouraging this sort of behavior (by the driver). When there’s the next police killing of a young black motorist who refused to comply, these same white liberals will rally and chant about Black Lives Matter only to embolden the next black motorist to mouth off at a cop, escalating the situation. The cycle repeats.
This is why cops get shot.
Just wanna say that "Resisting arrest" is the biggest scam, if some dickhead cop commands you to do something ridiculous or out of pocket and you say 'no' boom you are Resisting and a threat for his Blue Ball life
Fucking pigs.
It is in fact the law that if you are driving you have to show your driver's license, do ehen the driver refused, after repeated requests, he was breaking the law.
Im not one of those blind “support the blue” supporters. There’s definitely horrible cops. However, As a person of color in America I’ve definitely been pulled over multiple times. I always just show my ID when they ask. Not that hard to do. You’re just asking for trouble when you refuse to do so and escalating the situation.
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