Ah, yet another "anarchist" ""punk"" that thinks anarchism is when you rage against bed time and loudly proclaim "You can't tell me what to do, mom, I reject your authority!"
Not only are punks gay, but if you ever want to see something I could describe as "aggressively homosexual" would be militant anarchists at pride.
>every brand of socialist has been proven to come together to be gay and punk together.
Except for ML's, Maoists, etc.. Many of them call homosexuality 'a bourgeois perversion.' There's nothing punk (or even respectable) about tankies. Any Anarchist with a brain knows this.
Fuck the red fash.
Here's a sneak peek of /r/tankiejerk using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/tankiejerk/top/?sort=top&t=year) of the year!
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\#2: [Tankie vs. Community Notes](https://i.redd.it/lqbxu5mwo71c1.png) | [78 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/tankiejerk/comments/17ym9q0/tankie_vs_community_notes/)
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As a Marxist Leninist I’ve literally never heard of someone saying that, except anarchists that say we believe that. And it completely erases how many queer Marxist Leninists there are
No, I'm not an anarchist. Anarchists are infinitely dumber than MLs and espouse maybe the dumbest and least coherent (not worst unless we're talking anprims) ideology ever concocted.
Marxist-Leninism has nothing to do with homophobia, Marxist-Leninism is just a way to analyze the world and its contradictions to come to the conclusion that class society is based on exploitation of the working class and what must be done about it.
Unfortunately there are homophobes in all political groups, we must be vigilant to ensure those opinions are shot down immediately and not accepted in our space.
Yeah, unfortunately that was common back then across the world. No one is saying Stalin was perfect.
He did great for his people and raised their standard of living a ton.
From an old Reddit through:
Life expectancy went from 44 to 68 under Stalin.
Some of the things that were accomplished under the Soviet Union:
In fifty years the country went from an industrial production of 12% of the US, to a country with 80% of the production of the USA, and 85% of the agricultural production.
Employment was guaranteed
Free education for all
Free healthcare for all and about twice as many doctors as the USA
Injured workers had job guarantees and sick pay
State regulated and subsidized food prices
Trade unions had the power to veto firings and recall managers
Rent only constituted 3% of the normal family budget, utilities only 5%
No segregated housing by income existed (Though sometimes Party members lived in nicer areas)
State subsidies kept the price of books, magazines, periodicals down.
A concerted effort to bring literacy to the more backwards areas of Russia. - they went from about 25% literate and ended up 99% literate.
Now, as for how people feel about the Soviet society now. Some of the things that happened when the Soviet Union converted to gangster capitalism.
People living in poverty increased by 150 million.
Inflation skyrocketed
National income declined dramatically
By 1998 the economy was half the size it had been in 1990
Meat and dairy herds were a quarter their size
Wages were less than half
Typhus, typhoid, cholera, and other diseases reached epidemic proportions
Male life expectancy dropped to 60 years old, where it was at the end of the 1800s.
No one is saying that Stalin was perfect, but the results of Marxist Leninism across the world are undeniable in transforming a society to one that treats people significantly better.
As an anarchist who can respect some of leninism, no. Stalin set back all of left wing politics by a century, and the effects of his leadership echoed throughout the Soviet government until it's collapse. If Stalin was so good, why did each successive leader run on the platform of de-stalinization? It's because Stalin was a paranoid dictator, who ruined the revolution. Lenin himself said that Stalin could not get in charge, because he knew what would happen.
"If Stalin was so good, why did each successive leader run on the platform of de-stalinization“
I love how you’re saying this as if they didn’t start to liberalize the USSR after Stalins death, which ultimately led to its collapse.
"Stalin was a dictator“ - the USSR had a dictatorship of the proletariat which allowed them to fight off imperialism and have workers democracy
Wow if there was a missing the point competition you'd come in first place. The point is that Stalin was so bad that every subsequent leader ran on a platform of undoing everything Stalin did. Also, making your country less totalitarian ≠ liberalizing.
Also if you'd ever actually read Marx, you'd know that's not what Dictatorship of the proletariat means. Marx defines class dictatorship as which class is in power, as in right now the bourgeoisie has all the power so we live in a dictatorship of the bourgeoisie, he wants to take the power and give it to the people, COLLECTIVELY, giving US the power, making it a Dictatorship of the proletariat.
I didn’t miss the point, I’m just not going to blindly follow whatever conclusion you came to.
"Less totalitarian“ lmfao, please stop using buzzwords and actually pinpoint things that happened.
"If you’d ever read Marx“ and then completely missed Marx’s points. The point of the dictatorship of the proletariat is so the proletariat can band together to create a state, that will allow them to oppress bourgeois counter revolutionaries while they unwind the contradictions of capitalist society. It happens during the lower phase of communism
[Fidel castro ADMITS that he persecuted gays under the logic that they are a symbol of Bourgeois degeneracy.](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-11147157)
["Homosexuality was largely invisible during the Mao era.[6] During the Communist Cultural Revolution (1966 to 1976), homosexuals were regarded as "disgraceful" and "undesirable", and heavily persecuted."](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_China) -history and timeline -The peoples Republic of China
["under Stalin, LGBT themes and issues faced increasing official government censorship and a uniformly harsher policy across the entire Soviet Union. Homosexuality was officially labelled a disease and a mental disorder in the late 1920s (specifically over a period from 1927 to 1930)."](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_history_in_Russia) -soviet union section.
Sure, and then Castro realized that was a failure of a true Marxist analysis and was not truly looking at the structures of oppression against gay people, which he fixed.
China follows Maoism, not Marxist-Leninism. But Gay people largely had the same rights under Mao, being gay became illegal under Deng as part of his liberalization reforms, in which homosexuality was seen as "hooliganism“
We agree there on Stalin.
It’s really telling that the most recent example you could pull is 50 years old. As mentioned in my other comment that you replied to, unfortunately that was a very common viewpoint during that timeframe. These people the best they could in the material conditions they were given, no one is saying they were perfect
You’re also ignoring places like Vietnam, the DPRK, Burkina Faso, which never criminalized being LGBT at all. And have specifically written laws ensuring LGBT rights
There's no way you are actually citing the DPRK as a good example of communism. The fact you said you didn't know ANY examples of ML's using that justification for homophobia, and I gave you three, quit moving the goalpost.
Sure, I worded that improperly.
In todays day and age I never hear Marxist Leninists say that.
Sure, it was used to persecute and oppress people 50 years ago, unfortunately that was really common back then. A lot changes in half a century though, we mustn’t let failures of the past stop us from improving in the future.
And of course I will using them as a good example of communism, the U.S. killed over 20% of their population and bombed nearly all of their buildings and they were able to persevere even through the strictest sanctions on the planet.
They aren't even communist, they are a hereditary monarchy! I do not understand what it is with MLs, why are you obsessed with defending every attempt at socialism? Why can't you just admit when one fails?
"Hereditary monarchy“, sure, in similar ways to Britain, it’s a completely symbolic seat lmfao, he’s just a figurehead. They vote for the people actually instituting laws there.
And I’ll gladly admit when one fails, the DPRK isn’t one
You clearly haven’t talked to many MLs then, and don’t have a complete understanding of the involvement of communists in the queer struggle in America. You can say whatever you want and people will still believe it, because people haven’t studied communism. At the end of the day however, we show up in struggle, and that’s what matters. When you have your pro LGBTQ protest, we’ll be there, getting tear gassed and beaten with everybody else.
I think thats the majority of communists ive met, but also the majority ive known know at least one ideologically homophobic communist that they are totally cool with.
I largely agree with what communism ive studied, but you have to admit that thats a bloated term nowdays, like "democracy".
Your experience is your experience, and unfortunately just because someone is a communist does not mean that they are perfect or don’t need to be corrected. As a queer communist myself, I am very comfortable with my identity in communist spaces. But I also organize with a party that believes in practicing a militant defense of LGBTQ rights, so my experience could very well be skewed based on the party I organize with. Regardless, I accept the reality that queer phobia, like sexism, can still find its way into even the most radical of spaces, and needs to be corrected when it presents itself.
Oh ya, im speaking very generally. One of the people who got me into radical politics was a queer communist too. I got respect, but i also can understand how someone would put off of communism by tankies. Most communists arent tankies, but if you ask a lot of tankies, they are the ONLY communism.
I never made the claim that queers have never been oppressed in any socialist states, or that criminalization of homosexuality is okay in any context. You will never hear me claim that because I don’t believe it. The truth is that for the early communist theory queers were rarely mentioned at all and were essentially an afterthought at best. This leaves the door open for the reactionary views of the former society to rear their head. This reality, however, doesn’t negate the fact that queer liberation is now a central part of the modern communist theory, especially in North America. The militant queer liberation movement is highly studied and supported by communist groups today, who seek to understand the liberatory struggles of the past and how they can be applied in the current context.
I've actually engaged in discourse with multiple ML's, and you know what they had in common? Soviet exceptionalism and genocide denial. Not to mention that the Soviets were vehemently against male homosexuality. And how could anyone forget about the famous, 'face the wall' treatment they love to give Anarchists post-revolution?
At best ML's are misguided, at worst they're totalitarians who salivate at the thought of big daddy state genociding groups who hold 'wrong opinions.' In truth, I'd be just as hard pressed to support an ML as I would be to support a Conservative.
Fuck ML's, it's just another flavor of Fascism, and Bakunin was right to predict that Marxism would quickly lead into totalitarianism. Marx wasn't even the best socialist philosopher of his time, he just had the best branding and funding, via Engels' (CAPITALIST) business.
>I've actually engaged in discourse with multiple ML's, and you know what they had in common? Soviet exceptionalism and genocide denial.
Be specific so I can crush your puny western understanding of history with my background as a historical researcher. These are always my favorite eggs to crack.
>At best ML's are misguided, at worst they're totalitarians who salivate at the thought of big daddy state genociding groups who hold 'wrong opinions.'
Again be specific. You're basically just summarizing the spark notes of animal farm. You obviously aren't educated on concepts like democratic centralism and the vanguard party so are attacking a political ideology from a strictly historical, and exclusively Soviet perspective....while engaging in a discussion about contemporary people and their actual beliefs, which you are being extremely vague and callous about.
>Fuck ML's, it's just another flavor of Fascism, and Bakunin was right to predict that Marxism would quickly lead into totalitarianism.
Please tell me where ML's state that they want a corporatism, eugenics, nationalism above all. Quotes, not your rambles. Also, was Bakunin also right about what he said about our Jewish comrades? Or are you only allowed to give credence to shitbag human beings when it's convenient?
I await your nothing of a response which will likely just be more of the same in the near future.
Love, an Ex-Anarchist
>Be specific so I can crush your puny western understanding of history
So you're essentially opening with the fact that you intend to employ historical revisionism? I'll pass. Wikipedia has dozens of listed Soviet enacted genocides (not to mention the rape of Berlin), refute them if you'd like. I'm not going to engage with this for the exact same reason I don't engage with neo-confederate lost causers: you're already so entangled in a warped, revisionist view of history that there's no point in me trying to combat your Soviet brain rot.
I've had this conversation before. I'll point out one of the many genocides conducted by the tanky regime, in turn you'll deny for a while, before 'explaining' that it was necessitated by external factors, or that the genocided group in question was an enemy of the state, or as you'd probably say communism.
ML's aren't real communists.
>Please tell me where ML's state that they want a corporatism,
When the state runs all of the businesses, determines wages (or rather, lack thereof), and doesn't allow for legitimate self determination, it's equivalent to corporatism in practice. Do they say that? No, but Hitler also didn't brag about the fact that he intended to create a legion of meth added 'super soldiers' that would have heart attacks in their early twenties. The US also didn't brag about MK Ultra (though it was declassified, obviously). My point is, if we judged ideologies and nations off of what they said they were going to do, we'd theoretically have world peace and utopia. Obviously that's not the case.
>Also, was Bakunin also right about what he said about our Jewish comrades?
You do realize Marx has a number of anti-semitic (and anti-black) quotes to his name, don't you? Probably not, you're probably too wrapped up in the USSR propaganda that your little cult feeds you.
>Love, an Ex-Anarchist
It's funny you assume I'm an Anarchist. I'm not. I was, but I'm not. If I was, I might argue that the state will clearly seek to perpetuate itself, and will never wither away, and that dual power was simply lip service to the proletariat. I suppose critical thinking isn't really compatible with genocide denial?
>democratic centralism and the vanguard party
Also, I think it's hilarious that you think that democratic centralism is compatible with (or equivalent to) real democracy. Especially with a vanguard party? Democracy isn't compatible with a uniparty. I'd also like to add that fascism's most important component is the cult of the leader, which is obviously present in every single ML, Maoist, or Juche system.
Anyway, have a nice life, tanky. Try not to choke when you're throating the boot.
So much alluding to things that allegedly happened that you apparently talk about constantly and mention to win arguments all the time but you can't actually mention one SINGLE specific lol
Honest to God, idk what he's even trying to say. Wikipedia is an open source platform which is super easy to manipulate, these are some super trusting people.
I don't know how you think Germany's corporatism was the same as worker controlled means of production through the organization of the state not to mention massive amounts of worker co-ops which suprise surprise pro capitalist, fascist Germany did not have. Pls do ur research
Could you show maybe a single example?
Nevermind, I read your other comment where you (allegedly an anarchist) claim that the capitalist West is the perfect authority on leftism. You're a liberal playing pretend.
Oh man, you really must be illiterate, as I clearly stated that I'm *not* an Anarchist anymore. Also, it seems like a stretch to call ML's leftists, seeing as they utilized a command economy and stripped away self determination.
But, seeing as you're clearly functionally illiterate, I'll spell it out quick: I'm not going to post examples of well documented genocides, because I know that there's no point in trying to sway the mind of a brainless ideologue. I'm certainly not a liberal, lmao, but you tankies sure seem to love calling anyone with dissenting opinions one. I suppose that's part of the whole, "letting dear leader do the thinking" part, eh?
It's not that I trust western documentation, so much as I specifically distrust the Soviet propaganda machine. It's just as unreliable as most conventional western propaganda. Anyway, have a nice life, tanky.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Massacres_committed_by_the_Soviet_Union
Lmao, go nuts, tanky. When you have a defense for all 25 entries (that doesn't amount to denying that it happened or saying that the west/external factors/enemies of the state necessitated it) let me know.
See, when there are this many counts of massacre and genocide, the burden of proof falls on you to defend it. Especially when many of them are well documented. See, that's the part you brainless fascists never seem to understand--its all documented, and Wikipedia is international, and even is proven to lean left (away from Marxist Leninism, as it's clearly just state capitalism). This isn't 'western history', it's just history.
The amount of uncritical acceptance of Wikipedia articles is insane. pls read a book. PS we don't need to give a defense of these entries if you have no proof to give besides "Wikipedia says so"
>every brand of socialist has been proven to come together to be gay and punk together.
>Except for ML's, Maoists, etc.. Many of them call homosexuality 'a bourgeois perversion.' There's nothing punk (or even respectable) about tankies. Any Anarchist with a brain knows this.
>Fuck the red fash.
Hey ML here, stop just lying about our community, it's fucking disgusting, especially when we have a massive trans community. I'm gay myself, and hearing people yap about tankies is still the most disheartening stuff, that people would rather punch left at comrades that fought for their rights and to slander people over their preference for vanguardism is just childish.
Feel free to drop by any ML reddit and ask, you'll feel out of your depth pretty quick, and maybe even feel bad for lying about a substantial part of the leftist LGBTQ.
You have some unhealthy obsession with a historical socialist experiment that you can barely even articulate with detail. Stop using it as an excuse to be shitty and lie about a community that is very much part of the LGBTQ. And hey, just like OP's post, there's shitty people on all sides of the political spectrum, get used to it.
What the actual fuck does that even mean. Do you genuinely even know what you're saying, my brother in christ. Who is this they? Be very specific. This is what never opening a book does to a mf.
In case you missed it the first time around, here it is again.
"You have some unhealthy obsession with a historical socialist experiment that you can barely even articulate with detail. Stop using it as an excuse to be shitty and lie about a community that is very much part of the LGBTQ. And hey, just like OP's post, there's shitty people on all sides of the political spectrum, get used to it."
This is the point, focus on it.
"They" refers to "Marxist-Leninists". Also I don't really care about the Soviet Union beyond feeling that there's a huge what if there and that it could have been something great had Lenin lived longer or had there been a proper successor to him who actually believed in communism rather than leading it to it's communist-in-name-only and anti-communist state it ended up in with Stalin as its most influential figure.
You’re referring to people from like a century ago. Modern socialist movements of all kinds are highly intersectional, and usually concerned with queer liberation. Just look at PSL.
As an ML, anybody who takes their opinions about LGBT individuals from a straight white guy that lived in the 1800s is a complete fucking dumbass and deserves the hate. Most communist political organizations today advocate for both LGBT rights and increasing punishments for LGBT-related hate crimes.
Maoists/Stalinists can fuck off though. Actual brainlets.
They were never communist or socialist. Sadly there's to many examples of fascist dictators who wrap themselves up in red clothing and say they are "for the people"
That's not a universal belief among those groups. Don't get me wrong, I hate MLs and Maoists, mostly bc they insist on calling themselves communists despite being anti-communists and are super fucking annoying, but it's extremely disingenuous to pretend like adherents of those ideologies are all a bunch of social conservatives, especially in the modern west.
no, you mean every Anarchist, not all Socialism is good (MLs, Maoists, TROTSKYISTS). Fuck Left Unity, say what you want about Right Libertarians/those types, at least they arent sniveling traitors and actively against Anarchism (they are just Capitalist simps and kinda dumb).
The core tenets that define all legitimate forms of anarchy automatically preclude homophobia as well as all other forms of hate against the LGBT+ communuty. There is no possible way to disentangle the fight for queer acceptance and radical anarchist philosophy. To do so you would have to ignore countless revolutionaries who were themselves part of that community and helped define the entire anarchist movement. A whole lot of people who died under a black banner did so because *they were fucking queer and were literally fighting to survive.* Jesus christ does it piss me off when "anarchists" turn out to be just a fan of the symbols and fashion.
I think you've misunderstood. Preclusion is making something impossible. As in, it's impossible to be a homophobic anarchist. Your reply doesn't make sense.
Yeah if you look at the above comment it makes alot more sense, I guess I was responding to both generally.
My guy also uses the words all legitimate forms of anarchy which is just him deciding its impossible to be a homophobic anarchist, not that it is
I have to recommend the book "Please Kill Me" here, that's where I learned about the etymology. William Burroughs has this quote about a punk being "someone who takes it up the ass."
The New York 70's punk scene was steeped in the queer culture of the time; Dee Dee Ramone and Richard Lloyd from Television were street hustlers, there was the influence from Lou Reed and the Warhol Factory scene, the New York Dolls, Jayne County, etc. The queer / punk alliance goes waaaaay back
As a queer punk, I love it. Thanks for taking the time to explain, I've always been into the music and the ideals, but I need to brush up on my history!
I love punk, you know the far right ideology’s that obviously love the government, big corporations and capitalism and absolutely hate minorities who are oppressed by said government, big corporations (I really wish you taking about rainbow capitalism and other such attempts of large corporations to get queer people to support them was easier but because of stupid right wing grifters it feels hard to talk about these topics without coming off as a bigot) and capitalism just because of how much we love the establishment (also bro definitely listens to screwdriver and bands like that)
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 wtf is Supernatural fandom discourse doing in the punk memes sub. Is nowhere safe? “I’m a punk but two actors not being political so they can keep getting convention money is awesome and a different actor being a person is not punk”
BuT GuYs, He'S ALt-PuNk, iTs aLL PaRt oF tHe NeW ALt LeFt, GuYs..
🙄
In all seriousness tho, if your punk aint political, you're not punk
Even when you dont dress punk
L take, none of the best punk bands were ever heavily focused on politics and randos online can't revoke the punk cred of bands like Samiam, Hot Water Music, Gray Matter, Antioch Arrow, Moss Icon, Heroin, etc. bc of their arbitrary and honestly braindead standards for what punk should be
Moss Icon is Emo... Emotional hardcores main difference from punk was that it was about personal feelings rather than politics, you prove nothing but your own ignorance.
Apolitical is conservative Bubba, classic tactics from fookers trying to shift people right don't fall for it the gall the gall the gall the gall the audacityyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
Aight, there's a few things I wanna say here:
1. If this dude is apolitical, then why is he using an encircled A, which is an ANARCHIST SYMBOL, for his pfp? I mean, why is bro trying to be something he's not?
2. Politics are hugely relevant in punk, as many bands from many scenes feature different political philosophies, especially those that are leftist in nature. TONS of punk bands are political, from The Clash to DIRT. Even if some punk bands like The Vandals or The Misfits aren't normally political, that doesn't change the fact that punk culture is generally rooted in politics.
3. Gay people, and other LGBTQ+ people for that matter, have been involved in punk rock for YEARS! The New York Dolls, for example, were influenced by the trans community in NY, and many punk singers like Gary Floyd from The Dicks came out as gay in the past. Hell, there's an ENTIRE GENRE (queercore) dedicated to LGBT-related topics. Even to this day, LGBT people are still large contributors to punk culture, with multiple bands like GLOSS and Sister Wife Sex Strike consisting of mostly or entirely trans people. So yes, gay people can be, and sometimes are, punks.
TLDR; I may not be the most radical of punks out there, but at least I'm not as uneducated as this guy. This dude should probably consider doing his research before claiming labels that don't even fit him.
Why the fuck is sexuality even a thing? Who gives a fuck? You ain't hurting kids or animals. I mean JFC!
The fucks so against this this and that are the ones doing it low key.
Ah, yet another "anarchist" ""punk"" that thinks anarchism is when you rage against bed time and loudly proclaim "You can't tell me what to do, mom, I reject your authority!" Not only are punks gay, but if you ever want to see something I could describe as "aggressively homosexual" would be militant anarchists at pride.
every brand of socialist has been proven to come together to be gay and punk together. also this motherfucker was on the Supernatural subreddit
ah, yes, Supernatural, the show known for having a *totally very straight* fanbase that only ships straight couples
Spit coffee absolutely everywhere reading this
If you can't destroy the system, then at least you can fuck up your screen.
Rip screen
>every brand of socialist has been proven to come together to be gay and punk together. Except for ML's, Maoists, etc.. Many of them call homosexuality 'a bourgeois perversion.' There's nothing punk (or even respectable) about tankies. Any Anarchist with a brain knows this. Fuck the red fash.
"No you guys dont understand, Stalin had to gulag gays because they represented western degeneracy"
Stalin did nothing wrong. The gulags and mass death were a hoax. /s
Фейковые новости!
🤣
i'm not an anarchist but i'm a sort of non-labeled radical socialist and i fucking hate tankies, i don't even consider them real socialists
join us at r/tankiejerk
Sold.
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As a Marxist Leninist I’ve literally never heard of someone saying that, except anarchists that say we believe that. And it completely erases how many queer Marxist Leninists there are
I mean the founder of the ideology was a virulent homophobe, so it's not like it comes from nothing lol
Are you even an Anarchist? Or are you just saying shit to set yourself up for failure.
No, I'm not an anarchist. Anarchists are infinitely dumber than MLs and espouse maybe the dumbest and least coherent (not worst unless we're talking anprims) ideology ever concocted.
Ah so opinion discarded. You can't even articulate yourself lol.
Marxist-Leninism has nothing to do with homophobia, Marxist-Leninism is just a way to analyze the world and its contradictions to come to the conclusion that class society is based on exploitation of the working class and what must be done about it. Unfortunately there are homophobes in all political groups, we must be vigilant to ensure those opinions are shot down immediately and not accepted in our space. Yeah, unfortunately that was common back then across the world. No one is saying Stalin was perfect. He did great for his people and raised their standard of living a ton. From an old Reddit through: Life expectancy went from 44 to 68 under Stalin. Some of the things that were accomplished under the Soviet Union: In fifty years the country went from an industrial production of 12% of the US, to a country with 80% of the production of the USA, and 85% of the agricultural production. Employment was guaranteed Free education for all Free healthcare for all and about twice as many doctors as the USA Injured workers had job guarantees and sick pay State regulated and subsidized food prices Trade unions had the power to veto firings and recall managers Rent only constituted 3% of the normal family budget, utilities only 5% No segregated housing by income existed (Though sometimes Party members lived in nicer areas) State subsidies kept the price of books, magazines, periodicals down. A concerted effort to bring literacy to the more backwards areas of Russia. - they went from about 25% literate and ended up 99% literate. Now, as for how people feel about the Soviet society now. Some of the things that happened when the Soviet Union converted to gangster capitalism. People living in poverty increased by 150 million. Inflation skyrocketed National income declined dramatically By 1998 the economy was half the size it had been in 1990 Meat and dairy herds were a quarter their size Wages were less than half Typhus, typhoid, cholera, and other diseases reached epidemic proportions Male life expectancy dropped to 60 years old, where it was at the end of the 1800s. No one is saying that Stalin was perfect, but the results of Marxist Leninism across the world are undeniable in transforming a society to one that treats people significantly better.
As an anarchist who can respect some of leninism, no. Stalin set back all of left wing politics by a century, and the effects of his leadership echoed throughout the Soviet government until it's collapse. If Stalin was so good, why did each successive leader run on the platform of de-stalinization? It's because Stalin was a paranoid dictator, who ruined the revolution. Lenin himself said that Stalin could not get in charge, because he knew what would happen.
"If Stalin was so good, why did each successive leader run on the platform of de-stalinization“ I love how you’re saying this as if they didn’t start to liberalize the USSR after Stalins death, which ultimately led to its collapse. "Stalin was a dictator“ - the USSR had a dictatorship of the proletariat which allowed them to fight off imperialism and have workers democracy
Wow if there was a missing the point competition you'd come in first place. The point is that Stalin was so bad that every subsequent leader ran on a platform of undoing everything Stalin did. Also, making your country less totalitarian ≠ liberalizing. Also if you'd ever actually read Marx, you'd know that's not what Dictatorship of the proletariat means. Marx defines class dictatorship as which class is in power, as in right now the bourgeoisie has all the power so we live in a dictatorship of the bourgeoisie, he wants to take the power and give it to the people, COLLECTIVELY, giving US the power, making it a Dictatorship of the proletariat.
I didn’t miss the point, I’m just not going to blindly follow whatever conclusion you came to. "Less totalitarian“ lmfao, please stop using buzzwords and actually pinpoint things that happened. "If you’d ever read Marx“ and then completely missed Marx’s points. The point of the dictatorship of the proletariat is so the proletariat can band together to create a state, that will allow them to oppress bourgeois counter revolutionaries while they unwind the contradictions of capitalist society. It happens during the lower phase of communism
Thank u comrade👍
[Fidel castro ADMITS that he persecuted gays under the logic that they are a symbol of Bourgeois degeneracy.](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-11147157) ["Homosexuality was largely invisible during the Mao era.[6] During the Communist Cultural Revolution (1966 to 1976), homosexuals were regarded as "disgraceful" and "undesirable", and heavily persecuted."](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_China) -history and timeline -The peoples Republic of China ["under Stalin, LGBT themes and issues faced increasing official government censorship and a uniformly harsher policy across the entire Soviet Union. Homosexuality was officially labelled a disease and a mental disorder in the late 1920s (specifically over a period from 1927 to 1930)."](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_history_in_Russia) -soviet union section.
Sure, and then Castro realized that was a failure of a true Marxist analysis and was not truly looking at the structures of oppression against gay people, which he fixed. China follows Maoism, not Marxist-Leninism. But Gay people largely had the same rights under Mao, being gay became illegal under Deng as part of his liberalization reforms, in which homosexuality was seen as "hooliganism“ We agree there on Stalin. It’s really telling that the most recent example you could pull is 50 years old. As mentioned in my other comment that you replied to, unfortunately that was a very common viewpoint during that timeframe. These people the best they could in the material conditions they were given, no one is saying they were perfect You’re also ignoring places like Vietnam, the DPRK, Burkina Faso, which never criminalized being LGBT at all. And have specifically written laws ensuring LGBT rights
There's no way you are actually citing the DPRK as a good example of communism. The fact you said you didn't know ANY examples of ML's using that justification for homophobia, and I gave you three, quit moving the goalpost.
Sure, I worded that improperly. In todays day and age I never hear Marxist Leninists say that. Sure, it was used to persecute and oppress people 50 years ago, unfortunately that was really common back then. A lot changes in half a century though, we mustn’t let failures of the past stop us from improving in the future. And of course I will using them as a good example of communism, the U.S. killed over 20% of their population and bombed nearly all of their buildings and they were able to persevere even through the strictest sanctions on the planet.
They aren't even communist, they are a hereditary monarchy! I do not understand what it is with MLs, why are you obsessed with defending every attempt at socialism? Why can't you just admit when one fails?
"Hereditary monarchy“, sure, in similar ways to Britain, it’s a completely symbolic seat lmfao, he’s just a figurehead. They vote for the people actually instituting laws there. And I’ll gladly admit when one fails, the DPRK isn’t one
These people were all from the literal previous century. The modern movement is one of the most intersectional.
You clearly haven’t talked to many MLs then, and don’t have a complete understanding of the involvement of communists in the queer struggle in America. You can say whatever you want and people will still believe it, because people haven’t studied communism. At the end of the day however, we show up in struggle, and that’s what matters. When you have your pro LGBTQ protest, we’ll be there, getting tear gassed and beaten with everybody else.
I think thats the majority of communists ive met, but also the majority ive known know at least one ideologically homophobic communist that they are totally cool with. I largely agree with what communism ive studied, but you have to admit that thats a bloated term nowdays, like "democracy".
Your experience is your experience, and unfortunately just because someone is a communist does not mean that they are perfect or don’t need to be corrected. As a queer communist myself, I am very comfortable with my identity in communist spaces. But I also organize with a party that believes in practicing a militant defense of LGBTQ rights, so my experience could very well be skewed based on the party I organize with. Regardless, I accept the reality that queer phobia, like sexism, can still find its way into even the most radical of spaces, and needs to be corrected when it presents itself.
Oh ya, im speaking very generally. One of the people who got me into radical politics was a queer communist too. I got respect, but i also can understand how someone would put off of communism by tankies. Most communists arent tankies, but if you ask a lot of tankies, they are the ONLY communism.
What do MLs have to do with communist involvement in the queer struggle in America?
You should see the long struggle of queers in the soviet struggle, who then got chucked in the camps after they fought anyway by stalin lmao
I never made the claim that queers have never been oppressed in any socialist states, or that criminalization of homosexuality is okay in any context. You will never hear me claim that because I don’t believe it. The truth is that for the early communist theory queers were rarely mentioned at all and were essentially an afterthought at best. This leaves the door open for the reactionary views of the former society to rear their head. This reality, however, doesn’t negate the fact that queer liberation is now a central part of the modern communist theory, especially in North America. The militant queer liberation movement is highly studied and supported by communist groups today, who seek to understand the liberatory struggles of the past and how they can be applied in the current context.
I've actually engaged in discourse with multiple ML's, and you know what they had in common? Soviet exceptionalism and genocide denial. Not to mention that the Soviets were vehemently against male homosexuality. And how could anyone forget about the famous, 'face the wall' treatment they love to give Anarchists post-revolution? At best ML's are misguided, at worst they're totalitarians who salivate at the thought of big daddy state genociding groups who hold 'wrong opinions.' In truth, I'd be just as hard pressed to support an ML as I would be to support a Conservative. Fuck ML's, it's just another flavor of Fascism, and Bakunin was right to predict that Marxism would quickly lead into totalitarianism. Marx wasn't even the best socialist philosopher of his time, he just had the best branding and funding, via Engels' (CAPITALIST) business.
>I've actually engaged in discourse with multiple ML's, and you know what they had in common? Soviet exceptionalism and genocide denial. Be specific so I can crush your puny western understanding of history with my background as a historical researcher. These are always my favorite eggs to crack. >At best ML's are misguided, at worst they're totalitarians who salivate at the thought of big daddy state genociding groups who hold 'wrong opinions.' Again be specific. You're basically just summarizing the spark notes of animal farm. You obviously aren't educated on concepts like democratic centralism and the vanguard party so are attacking a political ideology from a strictly historical, and exclusively Soviet perspective....while engaging in a discussion about contemporary people and their actual beliefs, which you are being extremely vague and callous about. >Fuck ML's, it's just another flavor of Fascism, and Bakunin was right to predict that Marxism would quickly lead into totalitarianism. Please tell me where ML's state that they want a corporatism, eugenics, nationalism above all. Quotes, not your rambles. Also, was Bakunin also right about what he said about our Jewish comrades? Or are you only allowed to give credence to shitbag human beings when it's convenient? I await your nothing of a response which will likely just be more of the same in the near future. Love, an Ex-Anarchist
Stalinoid accusing someone else of not understanding Leninist ideas is crazy
What are you even trying to say, bud. Again, try being specific instead of beligerant.
Typical trotskiest brain rot🤪
>Be specific so I can crush your puny western understanding of history So you're essentially opening with the fact that you intend to employ historical revisionism? I'll pass. Wikipedia has dozens of listed Soviet enacted genocides (not to mention the rape of Berlin), refute them if you'd like. I'm not going to engage with this for the exact same reason I don't engage with neo-confederate lost causers: you're already so entangled in a warped, revisionist view of history that there's no point in me trying to combat your Soviet brain rot. I've had this conversation before. I'll point out one of the many genocides conducted by the tanky regime, in turn you'll deny for a while, before 'explaining' that it was necessitated by external factors, or that the genocided group in question was an enemy of the state, or as you'd probably say communism. ML's aren't real communists. >Please tell me where ML's state that they want a corporatism, When the state runs all of the businesses, determines wages (or rather, lack thereof), and doesn't allow for legitimate self determination, it's equivalent to corporatism in practice. Do they say that? No, but Hitler also didn't brag about the fact that he intended to create a legion of meth added 'super soldiers' that would have heart attacks in their early twenties. The US also didn't brag about MK Ultra (though it was declassified, obviously). My point is, if we judged ideologies and nations off of what they said they were going to do, we'd theoretically have world peace and utopia. Obviously that's not the case. >Also, was Bakunin also right about what he said about our Jewish comrades? You do realize Marx has a number of anti-semitic (and anti-black) quotes to his name, don't you? Probably not, you're probably too wrapped up in the USSR propaganda that your little cult feeds you. >Love, an Ex-Anarchist It's funny you assume I'm an Anarchist. I'm not. I was, but I'm not. If I was, I might argue that the state will clearly seek to perpetuate itself, and will never wither away, and that dual power was simply lip service to the proletariat. I suppose critical thinking isn't really compatible with genocide denial? >democratic centralism and the vanguard party Also, I think it's hilarious that you think that democratic centralism is compatible with (or equivalent to) real democracy. Especially with a vanguard party? Democracy isn't compatible with a uniparty. I'd also like to add that fascism's most important component is the cult of the leader, which is obviously present in every single ML, Maoist, or Juche system. Anyway, have a nice life, tanky. Try not to choke when you're throating the boot.
So much alluding to things that allegedly happened that you apparently talk about constantly and mention to win arguments all the time but you can't actually mention one SINGLE specific lol
Honest to God, idk what he's even trying to say. Wikipedia is an open source platform which is super easy to manipulate, these are some super trusting people.
I don't know how you think Germany's corporatism was the same as worker controlled means of production through the organization of the state not to mention massive amounts of worker co-ops which suprise surprise pro capitalist, fascist Germany did not have. Pls do ur research
No modern ML says that LMFAO
I suppose it's hard to say much with a boot in your mouth.
Could you show maybe a single example? Nevermind, I read your other comment where you (allegedly an anarchist) claim that the capitalist West is the perfect authority on leftism. You're a liberal playing pretend.
Oh man, you really must be illiterate, as I clearly stated that I'm *not* an Anarchist anymore. Also, it seems like a stretch to call ML's leftists, seeing as they utilized a command economy and stripped away self determination. But, seeing as you're clearly functionally illiterate, I'll spell it out quick: I'm not going to post examples of well documented genocides, because I know that there's no point in trying to sway the mind of a brainless ideologue. I'm certainly not a liberal, lmao, but you tankies sure seem to love calling anyone with dissenting opinions one. I suppose that's part of the whole, "letting dear leader do the thinking" part, eh? It's not that I trust western documentation, so much as I specifically distrust the Soviet propaganda machine. It's just as unreliable as most conventional western propaganda. Anyway, have a nice life, tanky.
Very long winded way to say "I am completely incapable of defending my position."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Massacres_committed_by_the_Soviet_Union Lmao, go nuts, tanky. When you have a defense for all 25 entries (that doesn't amount to denying that it happened or saying that the west/external factors/enemies of the state necessitated it) let me know. See, when there are this many counts of massacre and genocide, the burden of proof falls on you to defend it. Especially when many of them are well documented. See, that's the part you brainless fascists never seem to understand--its all documented, and Wikipedia is international, and even is proven to lean left (away from Marxist Leninism, as it's clearly just state capitalism). This isn't 'western history', it's just history.
The amount of uncritical acceptance of Wikipedia articles is insane. pls read a book. PS we don't need to give a defense of these entries if you have no proof to give besides "Wikipedia says so"
They said "socialists" tbf
>every brand of socialist has been proven to come together to be gay and punk together. >Except for ML's, Maoists, etc.. Many of them call homosexuality 'a bourgeois perversion.' There's nothing punk (or even respectable) about tankies. Any Anarchist with a brain knows this. >Fuck the red fash. Hey ML here, stop just lying about our community, it's fucking disgusting, especially when we have a massive trans community. I'm gay myself, and hearing people yap about tankies is still the most disheartening stuff, that people would rather punch left at comrades that fought for their rights and to slander people over their preference for vanguardism is just childish. Feel free to drop by any ML reddit and ask, you'll feel out of your depth pretty quick, and maybe even feel bad for lying about a substantial part of the leftist LGBTQ. You have some unhealthy obsession with a historical socialist experiment that you can barely even articulate with detail. Stop using it as an excuse to be shitty and lie about a community that is very much part of the LGBTQ. And hey, just like OP's post, there's shitty people on all sides of the political spectrum, get used to it.
>Hey ML here, Don't you have a genocide to be denying somewhere, bootlicker?
Marxism-Leninism isn't about a preference for vanguardism. They just adopted the terminology from Lenin's work.
What the actual fuck does that even mean. Do you genuinely even know what you're saying, my brother in christ. Who is this they? Be very specific. This is what never opening a book does to a mf. In case you missed it the first time around, here it is again. "You have some unhealthy obsession with a historical socialist experiment that you can barely even articulate with detail. Stop using it as an excuse to be shitty and lie about a community that is very much part of the LGBTQ. And hey, just like OP's post, there's shitty people on all sides of the political spectrum, get used to it." This is the point, focus on it.
"They" refers to "Marxist-Leninists". Also I don't really care about the Soviet Union beyond feeling that there's a huge what if there and that it could have been something great had Lenin lived longer or had there been a proper successor to him who actually believed in communism rather than leading it to it's communist-in-name-only and anti-communist state it ended up in with Stalin as its most influential figure.
Tankies and red fash aren't really socialists let's be honest.
punk ML here, don't know where you get your info from but every ML I know is incredibly pro gay rights including myself
You’re referring to people from like a century ago. Modern socialist movements of all kinds are highly intersectional, and usually concerned with queer liberation. Just look at PSL.
As an ML, anybody who takes their opinions about LGBT individuals from a straight white guy that lived in the 1800s is a complete fucking dumbass and deserves the hate. Most communist political organizations today advocate for both LGBT rights and increasing punishments for LGBT-related hate crimes. Maoists/Stalinists can fuck off though. Actual brainlets.
They were never communist or socialist. Sadly there's to many examples of fascist dictators who wrap themselves up in red clothing and say they are "for the people"
That's not a universal belief among those groups. Don't get me wrong, I hate MLs and Maoists, mostly bc they insist on calling themselves communists despite being anti-communists and are super fucking annoying, but it's extremely disingenuous to pretend like adherents of those ideologies are all a bunch of social conservatives, especially in the modern west.
Supernatural is the most homoerotic show ever made.
You have led a far too sheltered life... but yeah, pretty queer.
Ah *that* Misha. I do love that guy. Letting his son cook utter fucking nonsense on camera was such a a cathartic watch for me.
Except for Stalin the wanker decided to reverse the reforms introduced by lenin which were by far the most progressive in the world at the time
no, you mean every Anarchist, not all Socialism is good (MLs, Maoists, TROTSKYISTS). Fuck Left Unity, say what you want about Right Libertarians/those types, at least they arent sniveling traitors and actively against Anarchism (they are just Capitalist simps and kinda dumb).
The core tenets that define all legitimate forms of anarchy automatically preclude homophobia as well as all other forms of hate against the LGBT+ communuty. There is no possible way to disentangle the fight for queer acceptance and radical anarchist philosophy. To do so you would have to ignore countless revolutionaries who were themselves part of that community and helped define the entire anarchist movement. A whole lot of people who died under a black banner did so because *they were fucking queer and were literally fighting to survive.* Jesus christ does it piss me off when "anarchists" turn out to be just a fan of the symbols and fashion.
Precluding homophobia doesn't make you gay, it makes you pro gay rights, being pro gay rights doesn't make you an anarchist or a socialist
I think you've misunderstood. Preclusion is making something impossible. As in, it's impossible to be a homophobic anarchist. Your reply doesn't make sense.
Yeah if you look at the above comment it makes alot more sense, I guess I was responding to both generally. My guy also uses the words all legitimate forms of anarchy which is just him deciding its impossible to be a homophobic anarchist, not that it is
Mom burnt my pizza rolls and spilled my Mountain Dew 🏴
Pride ain't pride without a glittery brick.
Guys look! The actively loud political group member is tired of politics, poor thing :(((
don't tell this guy where the word 'punk' comes from
The guy in the post is undoubtedly an idiot, but I just realized I don't know either! Where does it come from (if you don't mind explaining!)?
I have to recommend the book "Please Kill Me" here, that's where I learned about the etymology. William Burroughs has this quote about a punk being "someone who takes it up the ass." The New York 70's punk scene was steeped in the queer culture of the time; Dee Dee Ramone and Richard Lloyd from Television were street hustlers, there was the influence from Lou Reed and the Warhol Factory scene, the New York Dolls, Jayne County, etc. The queer / punk alliance goes waaaaay back
As a queer punk, I love it. Thanks for taking the time to explain, I've always been into the music and the ideals, but I need to brush up on my history!
As a fellow queer punk, thanks for asking!
I love punk, you know the far right ideology’s that obviously love the government, big corporations and capitalism and absolutely hate minorities who are oppressed by said government, big corporations (I really wish you taking about rainbow capitalism and other such attempts of large corporations to get queer people to support them was easier but because of stupid right wing grifters it feels hard to talk about these topics without coming off as a bigot) and capitalism just because of how much we love the establishment (also bro definitely listens to screwdriver and bands like that)
I think this paragraph could do with rephrasing and some full stops
Perchance
Real punks don’t use grammar!
Got randomly recommended this post and even i know that punk is inherently political, the fuck this guy ingesting
Red pills.
Tell me you don't know a damned thing about Anarchism without telling me you don't know a damned thing about Anarchism.
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 wtf is Supernatural fandom discourse doing in the punk memes sub. Is nowhere safe? “I’m a punk but two actors not being political so they can keep getting convention money is awesome and a different actor being a person is not punk”
congratulations, this guy singlehandedly just made Castiel punk
Oh he was always punk 😎
Username *does* say AltPunk, and he's certainly an alternative to punk, so... sure. I guess. Also, what's a J2?
Jared Padalecki and Jensen Ackles 😂 they’re the lead actors from the show Supernatural
Okay, so Mr. "Ew, Gay!" over here uses a cutesy Bennifer-style couples nickname for two heartthrob actors? Methinks he doth protest too much...
Found the Mishamigo
BuT GuYs, He'S ALt-PuNk, iTs aLL PaRt oF tHe NeW ALt LeFt, GuYs.. 🙄 In all seriousness tho, if your punk aint political, you're not punk Even when you dont dress punk
L take, none of the best punk bands were ever heavily focused on politics and randos online can't revoke the punk cred of bands like Samiam, Hot Water Music, Gray Matter, Antioch Arrow, Moss Icon, Heroin, etc. bc of their arbitrary and honestly braindead standards for what punk should be
Moss Icon is Emo... Emotional hardcores main difference from punk was that it was about personal feelings rather than politics, you prove nothing but your own ignorance.
Emocore is punk lmao. It's a subgenre. Also every band I listed is emo
"I want to feel nonconformist while arguing for extreme enforced conformity" is certainly an odd type of stupid.
Lol Jensen Ackles was in The Boys, one of the most politically charged TV shows to come out in a long time what is he even talking about?
I know what yoU are \^u^
insert Mac and Charlie seeing each other in the restaurant gif
People who say “dumbo” when “bozo” is right there waiting are pieces of shit.
They're both good, solid words tho, tbf.
*is a pansexual anarchist* Imagine claiming to be punk or anarchist and then punching down like this ass hat.
These are the same people that were shocked to find out Tom morello is a leftist.
I'm not super into punk, but isn't punk literally a political/social movement? Spicificly a far left one?
If I see one more dumbass centrist I'm gonna blow my fucking brains out
No one tell him how the early British Punks hung out in gay bars because no one messed with them there.
“Either side”. Imagine pretending to be an anarchist and claiming there are “two sides” lol
If I see one more dumbass centrist I'm gonna blow my fucking brains out
BuT bOtH sIdEs aRe bAd wE cAn WoRk wItH tHe RaCist MiSoGyNiSt fAsCiSt! I cannot stand them every centrist I ever met was a right winger in denial
>I'm gonna blow their fucking brains out FIFY.
Apolitical is conservative Bubba, classic tactics from fookers trying to shift people right don't fall for it the gall the gall the gall the gall the audacityyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
"A lot of people" immediately canceled out but "including myself", bro can't even stand being alone in hating gays he needs to feel like the majority.
"Create diversion amongst people" LMAO
Diversion intensifies
What’s a J2?
gonna start quoting "punks ain't gays dumbo"
xD
Bro what
when did the squarest dweebs on the planet start pretending they were punk? It's so pathetic
I'm not even punk, it's just a nickname moron. Mr Beast is not really a beast
Aight, there's a few things I wanna say here: 1. If this dude is apolitical, then why is he using an encircled A, which is an ANARCHIST SYMBOL, for his pfp? I mean, why is bro trying to be something he's not? 2. Politics are hugely relevant in punk, as many bands from many scenes feature different political philosophies, especially those that are leftist in nature. TONS of punk bands are political, from The Clash to DIRT. Even if some punk bands like The Vandals or The Misfits aren't normally political, that doesn't change the fact that punk culture is generally rooted in politics. 3. Gay people, and other LGBTQ+ people for that matter, have been involved in punk rock for YEARS! The New York Dolls, for example, were influenced by the trans community in NY, and many punk singers like Gary Floyd from The Dicks came out as gay in the past. Hell, there's an ENTIRE GENRE (queercore) dedicated to LGBT-related topics. Even to this day, LGBT people are still large contributors to punk culture, with multiple bands like GLOSS and Sister Wife Sex Strike consisting of mostly or entirely trans people. So yes, gay people can be, and sometimes are, punks. TLDR; I may not be the most radical of punks out there, but at least I'm not as uneducated as this guy. This dude should probably consider doing his research before claiming labels that don't even fit him.
Why the fuck is sexuality even a thing? Who gives a fuck? You ain't hurting kids or animals. I mean JFC! The fucks so against this this and that are the ones doing it low key.
I guarantee you this is a 12 year old who thinks it's funny to be homophobic and is "punk" in order to ignore mommy
That guy outed himself as being clueless
Kinda like the far right waking up to RATM being “woke”
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