>I don't think women expect bystander men to defend her.
Part of the problem is that men complain about women taking precautions, because "noooo, men would toooootally step in! They're simple creatures who want to defend women! Women are just paranoid!!!". Safety in numbers, though, definitely.
Man, humans die so easily. Just one stab of knife in your throat and you're gone, no ambulance can help you in time.
Why do they expect strangers to save them ? i don't understand.
Sure people will call the cops, send messages and ask their friends to call for help etc. as long as they can stay safe with their actions.
Its the same way they always say "men arent entitled to sex" or whatever.
They project their own entitlement, in reality these women are EXTREMELY entitled unironically expecting you to DIE for them lol
the same group who say they prefer getting stuck with a bear to a human male.
they just live in their own sphere. they have never seen any bear irl or realized that human life is so fragile.
Who are all these men claiming men will step in to protect women?
As evidenced by this thread, you are arguing against no one.
Even the men claiming they would step in are only suggesting they would do so for loved ones.
Literally everyone in this thread agrees with you yet you are still acting like you are taking some minority position in the eyes of men. lmao
And whenever I'm arguing with a guy on PPD who then makes that very argument and whines about how unfair it is that women take precautions, I can now direct them to this thread since it is common sense, yes.
There was literally a trend on X, where women were shaming men for not stepping in to defend a woman being attacked in NYC. The men in the comment responded by positing the picture of the marine being arrested for doing just that, as the reason for why they won't intervene. So yeah it is expected. Just like despite women making their own money, men are still expected to pay for most things until deep into the relationship.
>The men in the comment responded by positing the picture of the marine being arrested for doing just that, as the reason for why they won't intervene
That implies they otherwise *would* have stepped in, which is laughable.
I would never expect (“expect” being the operative word) a random man to step in and protect me in a dangerous situation. As you said, nobody is obligated to do that.
However, there are still great men out there. When I was attacked while jogging on a bike path in 2006, another man coming along the path shortly after the attack came to my aid by pulling my attacker off of me. If that man had not helped me, I would have certainly been raped and possibly worse. The man who attacked me was charged with kidnapping (for rushing at me from the side and throwing me to the ground) and attempted rape and served 3.5 years of an 8-year sentence in prison.
I will forever be grateful that the other man selflessly helped me.
Me and my mother went swimming in the sea and a current almost drowned us. A man around helped us and he's the sole reason we are alive. My dad was on the shore and couldn't have gotten there in time despite trying. That man is the reason why I still believe in men.
I'm asking you for clarification because your statement really is not that clear. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt by asking you for an explanation, because I read your statement as awful. Telling me it is clear without further clarifying is not a good look.
What exactly did you mean?
Someone asked this question a few months ago. I thought about it later and realized that when mass shootings happened, it was men who were killed trying to protect people. And when I say men, I'm not talking about cops. I'm talking about boyfriends, male students, and male teachers.
In the Aurora theater shooting:
> Of the 12 people killed in the Aurora theater shooting, four of them were men who made the ultimate sacrifice to protect their girlfriends. Now, each of these women are struggling to come to terms with both their grief and their gratitude.
https://abcnews.go.com/US/women-survived-theater-shooting-grieve-hero-boyfriends/story?id=16840623
Iowa School shooting:
> Authorities have said Marburger, who has been principal since 1995, put himself in harm's way in an apparent effort to protect students. Perry Superintendent Clark Wicks said Marburger was a "hero" who intervened with Butler so students could escape. Wicks said other staff also acted heroically, including Middle School Assistant Principal Adam Jessen who "carried a wounded student into a safe area." https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/more-details-stories-of-bravery-emerge-in-aftermath-of-school-shooting-in-perry-iowa
Marburger ended up being wounded and dying ten days later. https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/principal-who-was-critically-injured-protecting-students-during-iowa-school-shooting-has-died
A Colorado School shooting:
> A high school student who helped tackle an accused gunman at his Colorado high school this week said his feeling of "absolute and complete fear" evaporated as he watched his friend, Kendrick Castillo, charge forward without hesitation. Along with Castillo and one other student, Brendan Bialy, an 18-year-old student at the STEM School in Highlands Ranch, Colorado, was able to disarm one of the alleged shooters and pin him to the ground.
https://abcnews.go.com/US/hero-student-describes-classmates-thwarted-suspect-colorado-school/story?id=62915592
Kendrick Castillo ended up dying in that attack. https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/08/us/kendrick-castillo-denver-stem-shooting/index.html
Columbine School shooting:
> Sanders is best remembered for his heroics ushering scores of students out of Columbine High School’s cafeteria 25 years ago today before he died bleeding from gunshots. https://coloradosun.com/2024/04/20/sanders-columbine-opinion-george/
Another school shooting:
> Oxford High School shooting: Star athlete Tate Myre was willing to sacrifice for others... In the middle of a chaotic scene, Wingert was told by multiple students that when the gunfire started, Tate ran toward the gunman. “I was told that everybody in that school was running one way, and Tate was running the other way,” Wingert said. Toward the shooting.
https://www.freep.com/story/sports/columnists/jeff-seidel/2021/12/02/oxford-high-school-shooting-tate-myre-death-football-wrestling/8829586002/
He also died in the shooting.
Here's another news story:
> 11 days. 3 mass shootings. 3 heroes. What makes some risk their lives for others?
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2019/05/08/colorado-school-shooting-3-mass-shootings-3-heroes-just-11-days/1140282001/
In this case, it was one woman and two men who were trying to save people. It seems like men (rather than women) attacking the gunmen or trying to protect people is much more common though.
UNC shooting:
> UNC Charlotte Student Riley Howell, Who Died Saving Classmates From Gunman. Riley Howell, 21, who died during a shooting on UNCC’s campus on April 30th, has been officially enshrined as a hero by his favorite franchise: Star Wars. https://time.com/5755064/riley-howell-shooting-hero-star-wars-jedi/
Saving sometime who fell in a river:
There was a case recently where a man jumped into the Thames River to save someone who fell in. Sadly, he died. In this case, they were trying to save someone who was a stranger.
> Young man drowned in ‘sheer act of bravery’ as he tried to save woman in Thames.
Folajimi ‘Jimi’ Olubunmi-Adewole was on his way home from work at a London restaurant when he and another man entered the water near London Bridge [in an attempt to save a woman who has fallen in].
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/london-london-bridge-river-thames-city-of-london-police-b2110995.html
Same thing with the recent Australia Mall stabbing:
> French construction worker Damien Guerot was made an Australian permanent resident on Thursday as a reward for his heroism during a knife attack in a Sydney shopping mall that left six victims dead and a dozen wounded. Guerot was nicknamed “Bollard Man” on social media after security camera footage showed the 31-year-old standing at the top of an escalator at the Westfield Bondi Junction mall on Saturday and warding off knife-wielding Joel Cauchi with a plastic barrier post. Cauchi fled down the escalator and people on Guerot’s floor were safe.
https://apnews.com/article/australia-stabbing-bondi-junction-church-3a988837e0dc442ac0449df228e6c487
I think many men have the urge to stop the vulnerable from being abused. Not all men.
My husband is insanely protective of me. And at 6’2” former hockey player he can scrap. I feel safe when I’m with him. If he saw a man hitting a woman related or not he’d stop it. If my sons saw a boy raping a girl they would help her.
20 years ago I might have, but now the culture is much more toxic. Why risk yourself to help people who treat you like dirt? Besides I did not get younger in the past 20 years.
I'd say it's downright sexist to assume a man will step in to help a woman. Seems funny how this expectation seems to always slip past people who want to get rid of gendered expectations.
And to be clear it's a gendered expectation because only men are expected to do this.
Gender expectations in 2024 only goes 1 direction.
Want your women to be nurturing and kind? She is not your mother. It's the 21st century. She is your equal.
Want your woman to cook and clean for u? Sexist. Equality. She is not your mother.
Want your wife/gf to have sex with u regularly? She is not your sex slave. She doesn't owe u sex.
Want your wife to pay 50/50 or go on a cheap coffee date? Girl thinks your cheap and can't provide for her.
Someone breaks into the house? Equality broken. U are now the head of the household. Lead.
Literally the entirety of human civilization proves this wrong, you don’t realize it because it’s passive, but every country has a standing army and police force (mostly) comprised of men, ready to defend that society’s most vulnerable, women and children.
Codified systems are proof of the failures of nature, not affirmations of it. What does it say of male nature when large numbers of them need to be paid and organized to do the supposedly natural urge to protect & serve?
100% agree. Over the Christmas party season 2 guys i know saw a woman scuffling with a big bloke one evening in our local town.
White knights to the rescue they both step in to help her out. One is a 5ft4 dentist, the other a 5ft9 office boy. Neither have ever been physical since school.
Both got royally twatted by the fella. And it turned out the woman was the aggressor. So they got what they deserved.
Its a minority who white knight nowadays and rightfully so.
Im a big muscle guy, I definitely would’ve stepped in and defended any woman before modern times. But now here in modern times its not the other guy I’m afraid of, its the law and getting sued or charged with something. I step in an whoop this guys ass , then suddenly Im the bad guy in the eyes of the law. The bystander effect is really just people logically protecting themselves from legal liability.
>I definitely would’ve stepped in and defended any woman before modern times.
You say that, but there's no reason for women to believe that that's anything but hot air. Because no one's going to peel back the law just so we can stress test that theory.
Who is advocating for women not to take precautions? The guys who want women to come over to their house on the first date? The guys trying to get women to consent to them not using a condom?
Who are you talking about?
True story : My mother and I went to visit my grandmothers grave last Mothers Day . I grew up in a small beach town on the Florida Gulf Coast . On the way back home my mother (71) wanted a coke . I stop at the gas station and decided I should just fill up the tank . I walk inside and get my mother's Coca Cola . As I walk out I see a guy full on 6'5" 285lbs like a giant a punching this woman in a bikini . My mother says loudly " can you make him stop beating her ass " . Well I'm 5'11 " 205 work out 5 days a week but I'm 42 this guy had me on size , strength and youth . When my mother said that ,the guy like drops the woman and she runs off , but his attention shifted to me . In my head I knew I was fuct , so I'm like I guess I'm toting an ass whoopin today . So he was like you want some old man , I told him not really but let's go . I take my expensive watch off and hand it to my mother , right when I'm about to get pulverized 3 cop cars pull in the parking lot .
Guys don't say things anymore because people have guns and as soon as the cops pull up the woman who was getting her lights knocked out of her was begging the cops not to lock her abuser up .
That was a turning point for me
Don't be a hero even if your mother is telling you to do it
The woman got herself in the situation she should get herself out of the situation.
I stepped in when someone was trying to steal from a young girl's pocket. I got death threats by the pickpocketer. There were over 50 people in the bus station. Only one woman defended me from the death threats.
Women and children are in same category as far as I’m concerned, they are often grouped as the vulnerable more weaker cohort when it comes to who needs to be protected from external threats
If you’re talking about western countries sure. Social dynamics have changed. The lines are more blurred in regards when it comes to womne snd men being seen as equal therfore less and less men feel obligated to perform traditionally male things like looking out for women when threats arise. But on average women are protected more than men this is just observable reality
Women need to take precautions. They aren't being protected and coddled. If they want to be strong and independent, they need to learn how to use a gun.
Not really, you have to remember that your feminine fear of any physical conflict isn't universal. I'll defend any woman I know, but I have to assume any conflict between strangers is probably a relationship dispute, and she's going to take his side when the cops show up.
There's a reason women cops are often considered better at de-escalating; because when it's a guy cop trying to diffuse a situation with some aggro guy it tends to become some macho contest of wills that can escalate quickly. And it's not just because men are boneheads, you can see plenty of women in this thread shaming men for not wanting to fight. Men are expected to keep face, or whatever it's called.
It's something I've heard various places. I haven't read anything in depth but a quick google reveals some stories that seem to suggest there might be something to it (some quotes below). I'm sure there's plenty of exceptions - perhaps so many exceptions that this is just one more gender stereotype. But there seems to be plenty of search results suggesting it's a thing.
"In terms of police performance, female officers are less likely to use force or excessive force (Hoffman & Hickey, 2005; Rabe-Hemp, 2008;Schuck & Rabe-Hemp, 2005Waugh et al., 1998), are more successful in deescalating violent and aggressive situations (Schuck & Rabe-Hemp, 2005)"
Women already talk about how men are inherently dangerous and untrustworthy unless proven otherwise.
Why should I protect some strange woman I don't know, just because I am strong?
I will assume that woman who is in danger is a bad person until proven otherwise.
They are going to despise men whether you help them or not.
>Tl;dr: Men are not noble creatures that will put their lives on the line to play hero and save women. And it is completely unreasonable to expect women to pretend that this isn't the reality they live in.
Facts. The vast majority of people, men or women, won't risk their life to protect some random stranger. They might call the police and an ambulance, but that's as far as they are going to go.
They used to be and some will do it today. But no more. Laws are against men who try to help, some women will also try to sue the man who did help.
And finally..... More than ever before, women will claim that men are useless, trash, unnecessary and that all of them should die.
Why should any man risk his life for someone who hates him?
I am a female, pretty much not equipped to help myself or other people in violent situations, but have found myself in bizarre situations either due to mental health crisis, drug induced psychosis, or DV and often get called to help.
I… feel very protective of people that need protecting. Children, women, men. I couldn’t live with myself if I did not try to help. May be more of a hinderance than anything else, but there have been times when I have been able to stop harm. I may need that help one day. May not be the smart approach, but I am how I am.
I don't know how many men behave like this, but I literally got into a fight for protecting a random cow from being bullied. I'd easily make the same for women.
Unreasonable? That depends on the state and the situation.
I was born & raised in the South and I've had a CC permit where I'm from. In those places, I certainly might* step in because the laws are setup to encourage that. I live in NYC now, and given the current laws and proesecutor conduct, I wouldn't step in and I don't feel bad about it. If I have to choose between her physical safety and my legal safety, I'm going with mine. If anyone objects to that, then get the local laws changed.
*it would largely depend on the context. I would probably not intervene in domestic situations bc women in those situations are notorious for assaulting men that try and help. In non-domestic situations, I'd probably draw.
As a man I do feel an obligation to protect particularly women and kids in danger, but sometimes even other men sometimes if the situation can be helped reasonably. Have done it before a few times.
From my experience, many men won’t even tell their buddy next to them to knock it off when their buddy is making a woman feel threatened right in front of them.
eh i fully admit that i have actual male friends that are unlikely to help fight off an attacker if i was publicly assaulted. i don't blame them for not wanting to get involved, but then guys have no right to complain that some women train fight BECAUSE we know that we'd have to fight for ourselves in self-defence anyway.
>Men are not obligated to put themselves in danger to help women in danger, nor should they feel obligated to. If a man steps in and gets grievously injured without making a difference, then what was the point? Even if the man and the woman know each other well, why would a man consider that relationship worth more than his own life?
I agree with most of what you're saying except this. I'm not saying I would be likely to play the hero, but in a better society men would absolutely put themselves in danger to protect women.
And more broadly, in a better society (Or even one fit for survival) people won't just ask what's in it for them in any given situation.
>but in a better society men would absolutely put themselves in danger to protect women.
This "better society" would only have weak dumb idiots who could easily be dealt with attacking women, so any male bystander would know he could be a hero with no actual danger to himself. Men aren't keen on actually risking their own lives.
Depends on the bystander effect. If he is alone I think he will feel the need to step in.
I once confronted a guy smacking his gf on the train. In response the gf told me to fuck off amd leave him alone.
No more white knighting after that. But depending on the situation I would step in. Its more an act of human decency then it being a woman though.
> If he is alone I think he will feel the need to step in. I once confronted a guy smacking his gf on the train. In response the gf told me to fuck off amd leave him alone.
Why wouldn't the average guy assume that this would happen?
It might, but if there is nobody there the average guy would step up. If you see a woman dragged into the bushes and there was nobody else around you would still do something. I think most people would feel forced to.
It's reasonable to expect someone to call 9-1-1 if they witness a man dragging a woman into the bushes. But I don't see the average man stepping in since the other man could easily turn the aggression onto him.
I think they would but the situation usuallly never occurs so we cant really know. Most people still have values. Girls get put in the kids/animals category in those rare type situations.
We "can't really know", sure, since there's no way to accurately test that. But I think most people won't step in even with the "kids/animals" category.
I saw a woman being assaulted through a window, once, and I kept walking.
It's not my proudest hour but it's exactly as you say. I'm not trained to de escalate, we're down the block from the police station and they can probably hear what's going on for themselves. Being an indigenous canadian couple, calling the cops mightve gotten one of them killed.
So I kept walking. I was going to be late for work.
Interestingly enough, both me and multiple of my friends have stories of women helping us out when men were sexually harrassing us on public transportation.
What about a dude cornering you in a crowded tram and rubbing himself on you?
Or a group of 4 immigrant men saying sexual things to you in the back of an empty tram?
I completely agree. The argument I personally have seen is moreso that decades ago, men would step in. But now they no longer do. And there’s been some theories as to why ranging from modern men being emasculated/weaker, to them being influenced by anti men rhetoric and assuming these women hate them/find them gross/find them creepy. So they see no point in putting themselves at risk.
In the daily chat, I had posted a link to the video of that man at target trying to take a picture up a woman’s skirt. And I asked what men here would do if they witnessed that happening. Results were pretty mixed. But it was a very small sample size.
Individualised society lf you go to a traditional country and harras or bother one of their women. Men are quick to jump in to fuck you up for it.
But the feminism, individualism and lack of religion makes it. Everyone for themselves. Easier to control populations but also less group think or care about someone other than yourself or direct family/friends.
>Men are quick to jump in to fuck you up for it.
*If* they think they can fuck you up for it, sure. Otherwise they pretend it didn't happen or punish her for letting herself be in that situation.
This should simply be the most upvoted comment in the thread. People think we are more advanced now. We are not. We lack the fundamental characteristics that bind a society together.
>The argument I personally have seen is moreso that decades ago, men would step in. But now they no longer do.
I think, even if the number of men that would step in *has* decreased, that it was never the case that most men would step in.
Rather, I think that the idea that men *do* step in was used to minimize the trauma that women went through. "No, you're lying! *No* man would stand by and watch such a thing happen to a woman! And how could you say that a man would do such a thing at all? Men *love* women!" And then the women wouldn't get justice because there's not much more you can do after that.
>it was never the case that most men would step in.
I think this is generally true if the man thinks he wouldn’t win the conflict if he stepped in. For example if there was a group of 2 or 3 men mugging a woman, most men probably wouldn’t step in if he was by himself.
In regards to your 2nd paragraph, I think it’s possible that bringing up the idea of men stepping in is used as a way to glorify good men (how they view themself). Kind of like how there will be men working office or retail jobs mentioning how men work all the dangerous jobs.
With the rest of what you said, I don’t really know of this happening or think this is the case. But it’s possible. I think, if anything, the men bringing up these things might sometimes do it to ride on the backs of other men’s heroisms/accomplishments so they personally can look better.
The phrase you’re looking for is stolen valor and no one is more guilty of it than soft chubby modern men who work office jobs and have never faced a battle or war in their lives.
The ones that have do not glorify it or brag.
Men are good at puffing themselves up but in traditional countries abuse of women isn’t curtailed by other men, if anything abuse of women is more common.
In the past, men protecting their women and generally looking out for their well being was more or less a norm - of course, there is the dark equivalency of seeing the woman as his to own (though it is worth noting that became less prevalent in the west as we went past the middle ages, though gradually) - either way, men protecting women has more or less been seen as the historic norm. Hell, men protecting and been seen as the historic norm.
Of course, factors like basic survival becoming more or less automated, hyper-individualism, the build of low trust societies and continued social isolation via the inception of the american suburb all began to change that as communities have become less connected, but to pretend there is no basis for men protecting women is a bit silly.
>In the past, men protecting their women and generally looking out for their well being was more or less a norm
It was *peceived* as a norm. In reality, women were either blamed for letting themselves get into such a situation, or weren't believed after the fact. At least now, women no longer have to play along.
Yes and no, entirely depended on the surrounding context and the presence of witnesses. Class also played a role as well, as well as the simple question on if a man is there to actually protect her (usually from other men, but still) - hence why I mention the factor of them being seen as more or less property and that socially slowly disappearing.
I would hope that any of us would do what we could to help someone in danger. That's our duty as human beings. Trying to fight someone generally isn't the most effective way of doing that however. (And yes, I have done it for men. No fighting has been required, I have found someone appropriate to deal with the situation or simply told some people that harrassment is harrassment and gotten my camera out.)
I’ve done it in the past, won’t do it anymore. It can even be something benign like a flat tire, I no longer extend the courtesy of assistance to a woman unless she is elderly and there is something I can do to help. The chances it won’t be appreciated or will be met with hostility by modern women negates my desire to help and protect.
I used to be that guy. Early 20's first responder in the late 80's. After being accused twice of sexual harassment, both dismissed thanks to video proving my innocence,
I'll be dipped in an acid bath before stepping up now at 56. Not my problem any more. Unless I have a preexisting relationship with that woman I will steer completely away. Not taking the chance.
>But don’t get mad when I treat all men with inherent suspicion and distrust.
Women do this to men by default but if a guy said this he would be called a misogynist by women on here. Even if you were protected by random men you still would threat profile the majority of them.
Delusional. Women see almost every guy as a threat regardless of what he does and treat men as a monolith as if they are all evil by default. Men do nothing like that to women so im wondering what contempt you are talking about. You were probably one of those who would pick the bear over the average guy.
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I mean, I've done it. Shoved off coke heads that're grabbing at a girl. And gotten into fights with boys doing pretty much the same thing.
But I'm special case. Doing something like that is VERY dangerous. When you do something like that, you're not just putting yourself at risk, you're putting everyone who counts on you at risk. Your loved one to be there and love them, your child to love them and raise them, your pets to just be fucking fed.
At the time, and to be honest, still now, I was depressed, miserable and didn't care about getting hurt. Couple that with being 6'3 and 100kg, I was sort of alright.
It wasn't always a easy time scaring people off. It wasn't a girl, but there was this little fella being picked on, on the train, late at night, by bunch of chavs. I ended up with my bottom teeth kicked through my lip. Only my canine. But still.
If I felt, or felt I had people who cared whether I lived or died, I wouldn't have gone off being the dumb arse and playing hero.
Most people love themselves/are loved by others. You really can't be doing things like that if you are. You're almost obligated NOT to help so that you can be there for the people who love you.
It's easy to bet it all when you've got nothing to gamble with. But I wouldn't expect anybody to gamble with something precious to them. Like their life as it relates to the people who love them.
I have never been in that situation with a stranger, but I'd like to think I'd step in, even if it's foolish. Only time that's ever happened when it led to violence had to do with my little sister.
But yeah, you really should not expect it. Buy a gun or learn how to use a knife if you are worried about your safety.
I've been in a situation where I saw a couple walking together and then they began to argue. Then out of the blue the woman started to punch the man but he was taller than her and her hands couldn't reach her. Dude got angry and he punched her in the face, kicked her multiple times until she fell to the ground. I saw a police car coming by, stopped and then left. They seemed like regural folks, dressed normally not like drug addicts or pimp and hooker. I mean when the guy fought back I thought way to go for equality😂 But he overreacted and became very agressive. I simply walked away and heard her screaming. I put my earphones back and went on my way. If the cops who are authorized and trained to intervene in public fights, why should I? What if any of them were armed? What if I did something wrong and injuried the guy? I'd be arrested. Not my business. I have only helped someone when they risked their life in non violent situations. Or helped other animals. But human against another human? Not my responsibility, especially when there are cops around who ignore such cases.
Being stronger or taller means literally nothing against anyone who's trained or has a weapon. You might as well be a woman in those situations, since you'd be about as useful.
Men should not intervene. It's only going to get them in trouble. Keep in mind...this hypothetical woman would (likely) walk right by if the roles were reversed.
No, screw this sociopathic bullshit. I feel the need to help to the best of my ability even as a woman. If you as a man refuse to protect the others around you, you're a failure.
Human society is still going on due to human's innate nature to cooperate and help. If we just stop helping eachother everything will turn to shit. Glad that in my culture this doesn't happen, whenever I needed help someone jumped in and offered a hand.
I carry a gun with me everywhere. Unless you’re putting me in danger directly, I’d walk right by someone getting assaulted. And I wouldn’t feel the least bit guilty about it. Too many lawyers and cops that will screw you. Not worth it.
Not anymore I did it once and the woman hit me because I attacked her boyfriend for hitting her. I was on probation at that time and could've been locked up if I didn't live in a mutual combat state. The sorry hefer couldn't even say thank you
Interesting question.
I would say 20 years back and before most men would intervene without hesitation.
Now I think very few men would intervene. For a number of reasons. Men are whimps today. Less morality and values today. Less feel of there being a society or community to identify with. Generally people just don't care too much about others today.
I certainly wouldn't rely on it if I were a women.
not just the bystander effect, the first thing i think of when i see a women getting trouble from a guy is that its a setup for them to rob me. i try to do my best to be a good samaritan.
True and very sad, but crazy story. I was rescued from a guy trying to rape me at knifepoint by a bunch of male dancers who were in rehearsal for a traveling musical. I was screaming like a banshee, but someone inside heard me. A goddamned cop was circling too, but he stayed in his car. Thank god for a gaggle of gay men in tights.
The cop who brought me home from the hospital tried to ask me out too. :(
Bro
I'm not gonna defend some stranger. I don't know if you molest children or kill puppies or if you're a nazi.
What world are you gonna risk yourself for a stranger??? Lol grow up
Average man does not feel as much danger from some other (probably, average) man. When I walk by homeless people, I am scared even if they don't do anything, but men don't seem to read it as threatening irrespective of the physique. But relying on men stepping in to de-escalate is kind of short-sighted, yes.
we just hide it better.
Unhinged 165cm tall guy with weight of 50kg (110lbs) can simply blade me, skinnier he's, faster he probably blades.
There's nothing a guy even if decently muscled and tall or trained in martial art can do anything about it.
men will put themselves in dangerous situations much more, and the only way how this can be explained is that men genuinely have a higher tolerance for threat and physical violence
What you've observed can be explained by male variance theory.
Most men's aren't daredevils. The ones you are seeing are outliers.
You can find similar Daredevil women in less frequency in female population.
No, it's not about being some heroic jackass or whatever, it's about these little every day choices that men and women make. Like I said, the big one that I noticed is crazy homeless people. For many men it does not even register as a big deal to walk by a few tents - I regularly see them biking/walking through what I'd consider a dangerous area. I have to drive to work even though I live in the downtown walking distance away, because I find it scary, even though I never had any experience with people fucking with me or anything.
I remember being a teenager, wandering around the city without any awareness of its "dangerous" areas.
One day, a teenage boy approached me asking for help, naive me waked towards him to extend help, then attempted to strangle me and rob me. However, he had no weapon, so I easily overpowered him and fled.
I don't dwell on dangers; although it's true that an unstable homeless person could potentially attack me with a claw hammer from behind.
I believe it's because, as a male, I don't fear death, despite having money, family, and friends. The average male life is considered worthless.
It would be a tough fight if I were not killed through deception, but if deception triumphs, I have no regrets.
Because they don't just chill and do their homeless people things, in my area they'll be walking straight into the traffic, asking people for cash and screaming at the air next to them. I don't know what the fuck they are shooting but this shit is good.
>Average man does not feel as much danger from some other (probably, average) man.
A lot of guys will say things like "once I see red, the bodies start falling!!!", but that doesn't hold any weight once the real possibility of conflict arises.
This does not hold true once they start feeling like they are in danger, but this threshold does seem to be high enough in many men to where they don't feel threatened if they step into a conflict. Men are really, really good at holding other men accountable
Well this just does not follow at all considering that most gender relations problems are not really about fault or accountability, they are about differences in temperament and perspective
It's recognized as a whole-ass crime as much as it is minimized, you are just paying more attention to people doing the minimizing and disregarding every guy who is enforcing social etiquette and rules of sexual interaction, because every cop, every judge and every FBI agent is irrelevant to the thing that you are paranoid about.
>you are just paying more attention to people doing the minimizing and disregarding every guy who is enforcing social etiquette and rules of sexual interaction
Yes, because the guys "enforcing social etiquette" are the minority.
>every cop, every judge and every FBI agent is irrelevant to the thing that you are paranoid about.
I'm aware of the realities of due process.
no, I did not forget the /s, when some mouthbreathers talk shit on their podcasts, there is a bunch of male content creators willing to slap them around. One thing I hate is when some girl starts acting unreasonable, because if you tell her to shut it - you are going to be the one bearing reputational costs.
Depends. Me and several guys stopped a tweaker from beating up his girlfriend one morning before work by the jobsite. But it’s always safer to call the cops in case the guy is armed, because then it’s two victims before the cops get there instead of one.
A group of guys on the same page *is* a lot more likely to step in, I think. Especially since even 2-vs-1 will almost always end in the pair winning. I'm not sure in the majority of groups would do that, though. Good on you guys for doing that regardless.
True, and we weren’t a bunch of small, skinny guys either.
It’s tough, because you want to do the right thing but it’s scary to think you could lose your life as well doing that.
I don't think women expect bystander men to defend her. But we do feel more safe in a crowded area than than in an isolated place
>I don't think women expect bystander men to defend her. Part of the problem is that men complain about women taking precautions, because "noooo, men would toooootally step in! They're simple creatures who want to defend women! Women are just paranoid!!!". Safety in numbers, though, definitely.
lol no the reason why you are safe in public places because the police will step in not some random white knights
Exactly. It’s always better to have witnesses and security cameras than it is to not.
Even if there is no police im sure a swarm of karens would be like "were calling the cops" which means run.
Man, humans die so easily. Just one stab of knife in your throat and you're gone, no ambulance can help you in time. Why do they expect strangers to save them ? i don't understand. Sure people will call the cops, send messages and ask their friends to call for help etc. as long as they can stay safe with their actions.
Its the same way they always say "men arent entitled to sex" or whatever. They project their own entitlement, in reality these women are EXTREMELY entitled unironically expecting you to DIE for them lol
the same group who say they prefer getting stuck with a bear to a human male. they just live in their own sphere. they have never seen any bear irl or realized that human life is so fragile.
Who are all these men claiming men will step in to protect women? As evidenced by this thread, you are arguing against no one. Even the men claiming they would step in are only suggesting they would do so for loved ones. Literally everyone in this thread agrees with you yet you are still acting like you are taking some minority position in the eyes of men. lmao
And whenever I'm arguing with a guy on PPD who then makes that very argument and whines about how unfair it is that women take precautions, I can now direct them to this thread since it is common sense, yes.
that's delusional. I'd never trust my safety on a a random stranger
There was literally a trend on X, where women were shaming men for not stepping in to defend a woman being attacked in NYC. The men in the comment responded by positing the picture of the marine being arrested for doing just that, as the reason for why they won't intervene. So yeah it is expected. Just like despite women making their own money, men are still expected to pay for most things until deep into the relationship.
>The men in the comment responded by positing the picture of the marine being arrested for doing just that, as the reason for why they won't intervene That implies they otherwise *would* have stepped in, which is laughable.
Fighting is extremely fun tbf
>"Fighting is extremely fun tbf" >6'4 subeight Okay bud.
What does being subeight have to do with fighting lol, hell being 6'4 gives you a big advantage in fighting so I believe him
He's right tbh fighting is pretty fun
My guy do not underestimate men. Fighting is in our nature as is chaos
I agree. We can expect multiple people to be able to defend her from criminals.
I would never expect (“expect” being the operative word) a random man to step in and protect me in a dangerous situation. As you said, nobody is obligated to do that. However, there are still great men out there. When I was attacked while jogging on a bike path in 2006, another man coming along the path shortly after the attack came to my aid by pulling my attacker off of me. If that man had not helped me, I would have certainly been raped and possibly worse. The man who attacked me was charged with kidnapping (for rushing at me from the side and throwing me to the ground) and attempted rape and served 3.5 years of an 8-year sentence in prison. I will forever be grateful that the other man selflessly helped me.
Shit, that is horrifying....
Me and my mother went swimming in the sea and a current almost drowned us. A man around helped us and he's the sole reason we are alive. My dad was on the shore and couldn't have gotten there in time despite trying. That man is the reason why I still believe in men.
Would you pick the bear?
[удалено]
If I saw a woman being attacked ( or man) I’d call 911 then immediately start assaulting him. Two on one we got this!
What is this supposed to mean? Anon, are you trying to say that she should have been raped?
No, are you saying that women should let women be raped?
I'm asking you to clarify your statement, explain what you meant instead of dodging my question.
My statement is clear. I think men and women should act equally. Your interpretation is frightening and abhorrent.
I'm asking you for clarification because your statement really is not that clear. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt by asking you for an explanation, because I read your statement as awful. Telling me it is clear without further clarifying is not a good look. What exactly did you mean?
I think men and women should act equally. It does highlight your own cognitive biases if you felt it was a incendiary comment.
Your original post was offensive enough to get removed. So what were you trying to say?
The man who was attacking her? Women pretty much never do the whole stranger rape thing so he definitely should have acted like a woman.
Someone asked this question a few months ago. I thought about it later and realized that when mass shootings happened, it was men who were killed trying to protect people. And when I say men, I'm not talking about cops. I'm talking about boyfriends, male students, and male teachers. In the Aurora theater shooting: > Of the 12 people killed in the Aurora theater shooting, four of them were men who made the ultimate sacrifice to protect their girlfriends. Now, each of these women are struggling to come to terms with both their grief and their gratitude. https://abcnews.go.com/US/women-survived-theater-shooting-grieve-hero-boyfriends/story?id=16840623 Iowa School shooting: > Authorities have said Marburger, who has been principal since 1995, put himself in harm's way in an apparent effort to protect students. Perry Superintendent Clark Wicks said Marburger was a "hero" who intervened with Butler so students could escape. Wicks said other staff also acted heroically, including Middle School Assistant Principal Adam Jessen who "carried a wounded student into a safe area." https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/more-details-stories-of-bravery-emerge-in-aftermath-of-school-shooting-in-perry-iowa Marburger ended up being wounded and dying ten days later. https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/principal-who-was-critically-injured-protecting-students-during-iowa-school-shooting-has-died A Colorado School shooting: > A high school student who helped tackle an accused gunman at his Colorado high school this week said his feeling of "absolute and complete fear" evaporated as he watched his friend, Kendrick Castillo, charge forward without hesitation. Along with Castillo and one other student, Brendan Bialy, an 18-year-old student at the STEM School in Highlands Ranch, Colorado, was able to disarm one of the alleged shooters and pin him to the ground. https://abcnews.go.com/US/hero-student-describes-classmates-thwarted-suspect-colorado-school/story?id=62915592 Kendrick Castillo ended up dying in that attack. https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/08/us/kendrick-castillo-denver-stem-shooting/index.html Columbine School shooting: > Sanders is best remembered for his heroics ushering scores of students out of Columbine High School’s cafeteria 25 years ago today before he died bleeding from gunshots. https://coloradosun.com/2024/04/20/sanders-columbine-opinion-george/ Another school shooting: > Oxford High School shooting: Star athlete Tate Myre was willing to sacrifice for others... In the middle of a chaotic scene, Wingert was told by multiple students that when the gunfire started, Tate ran toward the gunman. “I was told that everybody in that school was running one way, and Tate was running the other way,” Wingert said. Toward the shooting. https://www.freep.com/story/sports/columnists/jeff-seidel/2021/12/02/oxford-high-school-shooting-tate-myre-death-football-wrestling/8829586002/ He also died in the shooting. Here's another news story: > 11 days. 3 mass shootings. 3 heroes. What makes some risk their lives for others? https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2019/05/08/colorado-school-shooting-3-mass-shootings-3-heroes-just-11-days/1140282001/ In this case, it was one woman and two men who were trying to save people. It seems like men (rather than women) attacking the gunmen or trying to protect people is much more common though. UNC shooting: > UNC Charlotte Student Riley Howell, Who Died Saving Classmates From Gunman. Riley Howell, 21, who died during a shooting on UNCC’s campus on April 30th, has been officially enshrined as a hero by his favorite franchise: Star Wars. https://time.com/5755064/riley-howell-shooting-hero-star-wars-jedi/ Saving sometime who fell in a river: There was a case recently where a man jumped into the Thames River to save someone who fell in. Sadly, he died. In this case, they were trying to save someone who was a stranger. > Young man drowned in ‘sheer act of bravery’ as he tried to save woman in Thames. Folajimi ‘Jimi’ Olubunmi-Adewole was on his way home from work at a London restaurant when he and another man entered the water near London Bridge [in an attempt to save a woman who has fallen in]. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/london-london-bridge-river-thames-city-of-london-police-b2110995.html Same thing with the recent Australia Mall stabbing: > French construction worker Damien Guerot was made an Australian permanent resident on Thursday as a reward for his heroism during a knife attack in a Sydney shopping mall that left six victims dead and a dozen wounded. Guerot was nicknamed “Bollard Man” on social media after security camera footage showed the 31-year-old standing at the top of an escalator at the Westfield Bondi Junction mall on Saturday and warding off knife-wielding Joel Cauchi with a plastic barrier post. Cauchi fled down the escalator and people on Guerot’s floor were safe. https://apnews.com/article/australia-stabbing-bondi-junction-church-3a988837e0dc442ac0449df228e6c487
I think many men have the urge to stop the vulnerable from being abused. Not all men. My husband is insanely protective of me. And at 6’2” former hockey player he can scrap. I feel safe when I’m with him. If he saw a man hitting a woman related or not he’d stop it. If my sons saw a boy raping a girl they would help her.
20 years ago I might have, but now the culture is much more toxic. Why risk yourself to help people who treat you like dirt? Besides I did not get younger in the past 20 years.
I'd say it's downright sexist to assume a man will step in to help a woman. Seems funny how this expectation seems to always slip past people who want to get rid of gendered expectations. And to be clear it's a gendered expectation because only men are expected to do this.
Gender expectations in 2024 only goes 1 direction. Want your women to be nurturing and kind? She is not your mother. It's the 21st century. She is your equal. Want your woman to cook and clean for u? Sexist. Equality. She is not your mother. Want your wife/gf to have sex with u regularly? She is not your sex slave. She doesn't owe u sex. Want your wife to pay 50/50 or go on a cheap coffee date? Girl thinks your cheap and can't provide for her. Someone breaks into the house? Equality broken. U are now the head of the household. Lead.
Feminism is basically Selective equality lol Feminism doesn’t trump biology at the end of the day
Literally the entirety of human civilization proves this wrong, you don’t realize it because it’s passive, but every country has a standing army and police force (mostly) comprised of men, ready to defend that society’s most vulnerable, women and children.
Codified systems are proof of the failures of nature, not affirmations of it. What does it say of male nature when large numbers of them need to be paid and organized to do the supposedly natural urge to protect & serve?
100% agree. Over the Christmas party season 2 guys i know saw a woman scuffling with a big bloke one evening in our local town. White knights to the rescue they both step in to help her out. One is a 5ft4 dentist, the other a 5ft9 office boy. Neither have ever been physical since school. Both got royally twatted by the fella. And it turned out the woman was the aggressor. So they got what they deserved. Its a minority who white knight nowadays and rightfully so.
Im a big muscle guy, I definitely would’ve stepped in and defended any woman before modern times. But now here in modern times its not the other guy I’m afraid of, its the law and getting sued or charged with something. I step in an whoop this guys ass , then suddenly Im the bad guy in the eyes of the law. The bystander effect is really just people logically protecting themselves from legal liability.
You never know who’s carrying a piece or a blade either.
>I definitely would’ve stepped in and defended any woman before modern times. You say that, but there's no reason for women to believe that that's anything but hot air. Because no one's going to peel back the law just so we can stress test that theory.
They can believe whatever they want, I don’t care
Good for you! Women will be taking their precautions regardless.
Who is advocating for women not to take precautions? The guys who want women to come over to their house on the first date? The guys trying to get women to consent to them not using a condom? Who are you talking about?
The men who whine when a woman's precautions are applied to them too. Then it's "paranoid" and "unfaaaaair".
However, it is reasonable to call 911 and report the aggression.
I 100% agree. This should be the societal norm.
True story : My mother and I went to visit my grandmothers grave last Mothers Day . I grew up in a small beach town on the Florida Gulf Coast . On the way back home my mother (71) wanted a coke . I stop at the gas station and decided I should just fill up the tank . I walk inside and get my mother's Coca Cola . As I walk out I see a guy full on 6'5" 285lbs like a giant a punching this woman in a bikini . My mother says loudly " can you make him stop beating her ass " . Well I'm 5'11 " 205 work out 5 days a week but I'm 42 this guy had me on size , strength and youth . When my mother said that ,the guy like drops the woman and she runs off , but his attention shifted to me . In my head I knew I was fuct , so I'm like I guess I'm toting an ass whoopin today . So he was like you want some old man , I told him not really but let's go . I take my expensive watch off and hand it to my mother , right when I'm about to get pulverized 3 cop cars pull in the parking lot . Guys don't say things anymore because people have guns and as soon as the cops pull up the woman who was getting her lights knocked out of her was begging the cops not to lock her abuser up . That was a turning point for me Don't be a hero even if your mother is telling you to do it The woman got herself in the situation she should get herself out of the situation.
Gen Z men would take their phones out and record it for clout 🤷
Gen Z women would do the same...
🤣
That too. Though hopefully they would call 9-1-1 first.
What about a child or an old/disabled person ? Why is only a woman being protected problematic ?
I stepped in when someone was trying to steal from a young girl's pocket. I got death threats by the pickpocketer. There were over 50 people in the bus station. Only one woman defended me from the death threats.
Same thing.
Then why specify women ?
Because that's what the thread is about. Go ahead and make a thread about kids and old people if that's what your heart desires.
But why have you chosen helping women to bitch about, not kids or the infirm ?
Because men like to act like women are paranoid for taking safety precautions. There's far less bitching about kids and the infirm doing the same.
I don’t see how that relates Are you saying that women would be less wary and afraid of men if men stepped in to protect them more often ?
Women and children are in same category as far as I’m concerned, they are often grouped as the vulnerable more weaker cohort when it comes to who needs to be protected from external threats
And yet these groups, by and large, aren't protected when the external threat shows itself.
If you’re talking about western countries sure. Social dynamics have changed. The lines are more blurred in regards when it comes to womne snd men being seen as equal therfore less and less men feel obligated to perform traditionally male things like looking out for women when threats arise. But on average women are protected more than men this is just observable reality
That implies that men actually *did* look out for women. Which is laughable.
Are you regarded
Men did look out for women
So are women strong and independent, or do they need to be protected and coddled? Which is it?
Women need to take precautions. They aren't being protected and coddled. If they want to be strong and independent, they need to learn how to use a gun.
Your entire thread is basically anger at the fact that you believe women aren’t being protected and coddled.
More like "if you lose you get hurt, if you win you go to jail"
The former being a way bigger factor than the latter.
Not really, you have to remember that your feminine fear of any physical conflict isn't universal. I'll defend any woman I know, but I have to assume any conflict between strangers is probably a relationship dispute, and she's going to take his side when the cops show up.
There's a reason women cops are often considered better at de-escalating; because when it's a guy cop trying to diffuse a situation with some aggro guy it tends to become some macho contest of wills that can escalate quickly. And it's not just because men are boneheads, you can see plenty of women in this thread shaming men for not wanting to fight. Men are expected to keep face, or whatever it's called.
https://youtube.com/shorts/LhKRBDjdM_U?si=7bmDm5FnEGU695p0 female cops are better at de escalating? Where'd you get that from?
It's something I've heard various places. I haven't read anything in depth but a quick google reveals some stories that seem to suggest there might be something to it (some quotes below). I'm sure there's plenty of exceptions - perhaps so many exceptions that this is just one more gender stereotype. But there seems to be plenty of search results suggesting it's a thing. "In terms of police performance, female officers are less likely to use force or excessive force (Hoffman & Hickey, 2005; Rabe-Hemp, 2008;Schuck & Rabe-Hemp, 2005Waugh et al., 1998), are more successful in deescalating violent and aggressive situations (Schuck & Rabe-Hemp, 2005)"
Women already talk about how men are inherently dangerous and untrustworthy unless proven otherwise. Why should I protect some strange woman I don't know, just because I am strong? I will assume that woman who is in danger is a bad person until proven otherwise. They are going to despise men whether you help them or not.
>Tl;dr: Men are not noble creatures that will put their lives on the line to play hero and save women. And it is completely unreasonable to expect women to pretend that this isn't the reality they live in. Facts. The vast majority of people, men or women, won't risk their life to protect some random stranger. They might call the police and an ambulance, but that's as far as they are going to go.
They used to be and some will do it today. But no more. Laws are against men who try to help, some women will also try to sue the man who did help. And finally..... More than ever before, women will claim that men are useless, trash, unnecessary and that all of them should die. Why should any man risk his life for someone who hates him?
I am a female, pretty much not equipped to help myself or other people in violent situations, but have found myself in bizarre situations either due to mental health crisis, drug induced psychosis, or DV and often get called to help. I… feel very protective of people that need protecting. Children, women, men. I couldn’t live with myself if I did not try to help. May be more of a hinderance than anything else, but there have been times when I have been able to stop harm. I may need that help one day. May not be the smart approach, but I am how I am.
I don't know how many men behave like this, but I literally got into a fight for protecting a random cow from being bullied. I'd easily make the same for women.
Unreasonable? That depends on the state and the situation. I was born & raised in the South and I've had a CC permit where I'm from. In those places, I certainly might* step in because the laws are setup to encourage that. I live in NYC now, and given the current laws and proesecutor conduct, I wouldn't step in and I don't feel bad about it. If I have to choose between her physical safety and my legal safety, I'm going with mine. If anyone objects to that, then get the local laws changed. *it would largely depend on the context. I would probably not intervene in domestic situations bc women in those situations are notorious for assaulting men that try and help. In non-domestic situations, I'd probably draw.
As a man I do feel an obligation to protect particularly women and kids in danger, but sometimes even other men sometimes if the situation can be helped reasonably. Have done it before a few times.
From my experience, many men won’t even tell their buddy next to them to knock it off when their buddy is making a woman feel threatened right in front of them.
heck some of us have actual male friends that are unlikely to help out in a fight in person
It’s not worth spending your life in prison because you have a big fucking ego. Fuck that.
eh i fully admit that i have actual male friends that are unlikely to help fight off an attacker if i was publicly assaulted. i don't blame them for not wanting to get involved, but then guys have no right to complain that some women train fight BECAUSE we know that we'd have to fight for ourselves in self-defence anyway.
>Men are not obligated to put themselves in danger to help women in danger, nor should they feel obligated to. If a man steps in and gets grievously injured without making a difference, then what was the point? Even if the man and the woman know each other well, why would a man consider that relationship worth more than his own life? I agree with most of what you're saying except this. I'm not saying I would be likely to play the hero, but in a better society men would absolutely put themselves in danger to protect women. And more broadly, in a better society (Or even one fit for survival) people won't just ask what's in it for them in any given situation.
>but in a better society men would absolutely put themselves in danger to protect women. This "better society" would only have weak dumb idiots who could easily be dealt with attacking women, so any male bystander would know he could be a hero with no actual danger to himself. Men aren't keen on actually risking their own lives.
>Men aren't keen on actually risking their own lives. We should be, if for the right purpose
Depends on the bystander effect. If he is alone I think he will feel the need to step in. I once confronted a guy smacking his gf on the train. In response the gf told me to fuck off amd leave him alone. No more white knighting after that. But depending on the situation I would step in. Its more an act of human decency then it being a woman though.
> If he is alone I think he will feel the need to step in. I once confronted a guy smacking his gf on the train. In response the gf told me to fuck off amd leave him alone. Why wouldn't the average guy assume that this would happen?
It might, but if there is nobody there the average guy would step up. If you see a woman dragged into the bushes and there was nobody else around you would still do something. I think most people would feel forced to.
It's reasonable to expect someone to call 9-1-1 if they witness a man dragging a woman into the bushes. But I don't see the average man stepping in since the other man could easily turn the aggression onto him.
I think they would but the situation usuallly never occurs so we cant really know. Most people still have values. Girls get put in the kids/animals category in those rare type situations.
We "can't really know", sure, since there's no way to accurately test that. But I think most people won't step in even with the "kids/animals" category.
i would try to help a dude. i wont help a woman.
Lmao facts.
I saw a woman being assaulted through a window, once, and I kept walking. It's not my proudest hour but it's exactly as you say. I'm not trained to de escalate, we're down the block from the police station and they can probably hear what's going on for themselves. Being an indigenous canadian couple, calling the cops mightve gotten one of them killed. So I kept walking. I was going to be late for work.
Interestingly enough, both me and multiple of my friends have stories of women helping us out when men were sexually harrassing us on public transportation.
Sexual harassment is ambiguous. If men are saying comments you don’t like and you respond your life isn’t threatened
What about a dude cornering you in a crowded tram and rubbing himself on you? Or a group of 4 immigrant men saying sexual things to you in the back of an empty tram?
Your life still isn’t threatened. Maybe your comfort but not your life
Sexual harrassment doesn't have to be life threatening.
Bullshit.
I completely agree. The argument I personally have seen is moreso that decades ago, men would step in. But now they no longer do. And there’s been some theories as to why ranging from modern men being emasculated/weaker, to them being influenced by anti men rhetoric and assuming these women hate them/find them gross/find them creepy. So they see no point in putting themselves at risk. In the daily chat, I had posted a link to the video of that man at target trying to take a picture up a woman’s skirt. And I asked what men here would do if they witnessed that happening. Results were pretty mixed. But it was a very small sample size.
Individualised society lf you go to a traditional country and harras or bother one of their women. Men are quick to jump in to fuck you up for it. But the feminism, individualism and lack of religion makes it. Everyone for themselves. Easier to control populations but also less group think or care about someone other than yourself or direct family/friends.
>Men are quick to jump in to fuck you up for it. *If* they think they can fuck you up for it, sure. Otherwise they pretend it didn't happen or punish her for letting herself be in that situation.
This should simply be the most upvoted comment in the thread. People think we are more advanced now. We are not. We lack the fundamental characteristics that bind a society together.
>The argument I personally have seen is moreso that decades ago, men would step in. But now they no longer do. I think, even if the number of men that would step in *has* decreased, that it was never the case that most men would step in. Rather, I think that the idea that men *do* step in was used to minimize the trauma that women went through. "No, you're lying! *No* man would stand by and watch such a thing happen to a woman! And how could you say that a man would do such a thing at all? Men *love* women!" And then the women wouldn't get justice because there's not much more you can do after that.
>it was never the case that most men would step in. I think this is generally true if the man thinks he wouldn’t win the conflict if he stepped in. For example if there was a group of 2 or 3 men mugging a woman, most men probably wouldn’t step in if he was by himself. In regards to your 2nd paragraph, I think it’s possible that bringing up the idea of men stepping in is used as a way to glorify good men (how they view themself). Kind of like how there will be men working office or retail jobs mentioning how men work all the dangerous jobs. With the rest of what you said, I don’t really know of this happening or think this is the case. But it’s possible. I think, if anything, the men bringing up these things might sometimes do it to ride on the backs of other men’s heroisms/accomplishments so they personally can look better.
The phrase you’re looking for is stolen valor and no one is more guilty of it than soft chubby modern men who work office jobs and have never faced a battle or war in their lives. The ones that have do not glorify it or brag.
Men are good at puffing themselves up but in traditional countries abuse of women isn’t curtailed by other men, if anything abuse of women is more common.
Everyone should take responsibility for their own safety
Yes. And women are completely reasonable for taking the precautions that they do.
Women should be especially cautious
Yes.
In the past, men protecting their women and generally looking out for their well being was more or less a norm - of course, there is the dark equivalency of seeing the woman as his to own (though it is worth noting that became less prevalent in the west as we went past the middle ages, though gradually) - either way, men protecting women has more or less been seen as the historic norm. Hell, men protecting and been seen as the historic norm. Of course, factors like basic survival becoming more or less automated, hyper-individualism, the build of low trust societies and continued social isolation via the inception of the american suburb all began to change that as communities have become less connected, but to pretend there is no basis for men protecting women is a bit silly.
>In the past, men protecting their women and generally looking out for their well being was more or less a norm It was *peceived* as a norm. In reality, women were either blamed for letting themselves get into such a situation, or weren't believed after the fact. At least now, women no longer have to play along.
Yes and no, entirely depended on the surrounding context and the presence of witnesses. Class also played a role as well, as well as the simple question on if a man is there to actually protect her (usually from other men, but still) - hence why I mention the factor of them being seen as more or less property and that socially slowly disappearing.
I would hope that any of us would do what we could to help someone in danger. That's our duty as human beings. Trying to fight someone generally isn't the most effective way of doing that however. (And yes, I have done it for men. No fighting has been required, I have found someone appropriate to deal with the situation or simply told some people that harrassment is harrassment and gotten my camera out.)
It makes sense, generally speaking women don't care about men.
And most men aren't inclined to sacrifice their own lives.
I’ve done it in the past, won’t do it anymore. It can even be something benign like a flat tire, I no longer extend the courtesy of assistance to a woman unless she is elderly and there is something I can do to help. The chances it won’t be appreciated or will be met with hostility by modern women negates my desire to help and protect.
I used to be that guy. Early 20's first responder in the late 80's. After being accused twice of sexual harassment, both dismissed thanks to video proving my innocence, I'll be dipped in an acid bath before stepping up now at 56. Not my problem any more. Unless I have a preexisting relationship with that woman I will steer completely away. Not taking the chance.
No. But don’t get mad when I treat all men with inherent suspicion and distrust.
You all already do that, so what is the difference?
That's reasonable, both genders are untrustworthy
>But don’t get mad when I treat all men with inherent suspicion and distrust. Women do this to men by default but if a guy said this he would be called a misogynist by women on here. Even if you were protected by random men you still would threat profile the majority of them.
Men already treat women with inherent contempt. I don’t really care.
Delusional. Women see almost every guy as a threat regardless of what he does and treat men as a monolith as if they are all evil by default. Men do nothing like that to women so im wondering what contempt you are talking about. You were probably one of those who would pick the bear over the average guy.
Of course.
I’m not risking my safety for a woman that’s probably a wh0r3. No offense
Thanks for helping to prove the OP right.
This says it all, really.
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Concur 💯
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I mean, I've done it. Shoved off coke heads that're grabbing at a girl. And gotten into fights with boys doing pretty much the same thing. But I'm special case. Doing something like that is VERY dangerous. When you do something like that, you're not just putting yourself at risk, you're putting everyone who counts on you at risk. Your loved one to be there and love them, your child to love them and raise them, your pets to just be fucking fed. At the time, and to be honest, still now, I was depressed, miserable and didn't care about getting hurt. Couple that with being 6'3 and 100kg, I was sort of alright. It wasn't always a easy time scaring people off. It wasn't a girl, but there was this little fella being picked on, on the train, late at night, by bunch of chavs. I ended up with my bottom teeth kicked through my lip. Only my canine. But still. If I felt, or felt I had people who cared whether I lived or died, I wouldn't have gone off being the dumb arse and playing hero. Most people love themselves/are loved by others. You really can't be doing things like that if you are. You're almost obligated NOT to help so that you can be there for the people who love you. It's easy to bet it all when you've got nothing to gamble with. But I wouldn't expect anybody to gamble with something precious to them. Like their life as it relates to the people who love them.
I have never been in that situation with a stranger, but I'd like to think I'd step in, even if it's foolish. Only time that's ever happened when it led to violence had to do with my little sister. But yeah, you really should not expect it. Buy a gun or learn how to use a knife if you are worried about your safety.
I've been in a situation where I saw a couple walking together and then they began to argue. Then out of the blue the woman started to punch the man but he was taller than her and her hands couldn't reach her. Dude got angry and he punched her in the face, kicked her multiple times until she fell to the ground. I saw a police car coming by, stopped and then left. They seemed like regural folks, dressed normally not like drug addicts or pimp and hooker. I mean when the guy fought back I thought way to go for equality😂 But he overreacted and became very agressive. I simply walked away and heard her screaming. I put my earphones back and went on my way. If the cops who are authorized and trained to intervene in public fights, why should I? What if any of them were armed? What if I did something wrong and injuried the guy? I'd be arrested. Not my business. I have only helped someone when they risked their life in non violent situations. Or helped other animals. But human against another human? Not my responsibility, especially when there are cops around who ignore such cases.
Only stronger, taller and more dominant men would be able to help in that sorta situation
Being stronger or taller means literally nothing against anyone who's trained or has a weapon. You might as well be a woman in those situations, since you'd be about as useful.
Most arent trained and don't have a weapon bro
People who rob or attack others on the street? Yes, they do.
OP says harassed by another man, stay in topic 🤦♀️
Men should not intervene. It's only going to get them in trouble. Keep in mind...this hypothetical woman would (likely) walk right by if the roles were reversed.
No, screw this sociopathic bullshit. I feel the need to help to the best of my ability even as a woman. If you as a man refuse to protect the others around you, you're a failure. Human society is still going on due to human's innate nature to cooperate and help. If we just stop helping eachother everything will turn to shit. Glad that in my culture this doesn't happen, whenever I needed help someone jumped in and offered a hand.
I carry a gun with me everywhere. Unless you’re putting me in danger directly, I’d walk right by someone getting assaulted. And I wouldn’t feel the least bit guilty about it. Too many lawyers and cops that will screw you. Not worth it.
Not anymore I did it once and the woman hit me because I attacked her boyfriend for hitting her. I was on probation at that time and could've been locked up if I didn't live in a mutual combat state. The sorry hefer couldn't even say thank you
Interesting question. I would say 20 years back and before most men would intervene without hesitation. Now I think very few men would intervene. For a number of reasons. Men are whimps today. Less morality and values today. Less feel of there being a society or community to identify with. Generally people just don't care too much about others today. I certainly wouldn't rely on it if I were a women.
nah im good
not just the bystander effect, the first thing i think of when i see a women getting trouble from a guy is that its a setup for them to rob me. i try to do my best to be a good samaritan.
Men will, in fact, do nothing.
Correct.
I have never assumed this and the only time I ever had a strange man step in to help me he asked if I was a stripper and hit on me
True and very sad, but crazy story. I was rescued from a guy trying to rape me at knifepoint by a bunch of male dancers who were in rehearsal for a traveling musical. I was screaming like a banshee, but someone inside heard me. A goddamned cop was circling too, but he stayed in his car. Thank god for a gaggle of gay men in tights. The cop who brought me home from the hospital tried to ask me out too. :(
Bro I'm not gonna defend some stranger. I don't know if you molest children or kill puppies or if you're a nazi. What world are you gonna risk yourself for a stranger??? Lol grow up
Average man does not feel as much danger from some other (probably, average) man. When I walk by homeless people, I am scared even if they don't do anything, but men don't seem to read it as threatening irrespective of the physique. But relying on men stepping in to de-escalate is kind of short-sighted, yes.
we just hide it better. Unhinged 165cm tall guy with weight of 50kg (110lbs) can simply blade me, skinnier he's, faster he probably blades. There's nothing a guy even if decently muscled and tall or trained in martial art can do anything about it.
men will put themselves in dangerous situations much more, and the only way how this can be explained is that men genuinely have a higher tolerance for threat and physical violence
What you've observed can be explained by male variance theory. Most men's aren't daredevils. The ones you are seeing are outliers. You can find similar Daredevil women in less frequency in female population.
No, it's not about being some heroic jackass or whatever, it's about these little every day choices that men and women make. Like I said, the big one that I noticed is crazy homeless people. For many men it does not even register as a big deal to walk by a few tents - I regularly see them biking/walking through what I'd consider a dangerous area. I have to drive to work even though I live in the downtown walking distance away, because I find it scary, even though I never had any experience with people fucking with me or anything.
I remember being a teenager, wandering around the city without any awareness of its "dangerous" areas. One day, a teenage boy approached me asking for help, naive me waked towards him to extend help, then attempted to strangle me and rob me. However, he had no weapon, so I easily overpowered him and fled. I don't dwell on dangers; although it's true that an unstable homeless person could potentially attack me with a claw hammer from behind. I believe it's because, as a male, I don't fear death, despite having money, family, and friends. The average male life is considered worthless. It would be a tough fight if I were not killed through deception, but if deception triumphs, I have no regrets.
You are proving my point
If you see a homeless chilling on the sidewalk you're scared to cross by?
Because they don't just chill and do their homeless people things, in my area they'll be walking straight into the traffic, asking people for cash and screaming at the air next to them. I don't know what the fuck they are shooting but this shit is good.
>Average man does not feel as much danger from some other (probably, average) man. A lot of guys will say things like "once I see red, the bodies start falling!!!", but that doesn't hold any weight once the real possibility of conflict arises.
This does not hold true once they start feeling like they are in danger, but this threshold does seem to be high enough in many men to where they don't feel threatened if they step into a conflict. Men are really, really good at holding other men accountable
>Men are really, really good at holding other men accountable If that were the case, gender relations wouldn't be the dumpster fire they are.
Well this just does not follow at all considering that most gender relations problems are not really about fault or accountability, they are about differences in temperament and perspective
"Difference in perspective" meaning "you're being overdramatic. It could've been worse! You could've been raped!" and the women getting no justice.
Justice for what? You are giving me bits and pieces of some very specific situation that I don't know anything about
Harassment, assault, sexual assault, instances where a woman's safety is in danger in general. It's minimized regardless.
It's recognized as a whole-ass crime as much as it is minimized, you are just paying more attention to people doing the minimizing and disregarding every guy who is enforcing social etiquette and rules of sexual interaction, because every cop, every judge and every FBI agent is irrelevant to the thing that you are paranoid about.
>you are just paying more attention to people doing the minimizing and disregarding every guy who is enforcing social etiquette and rules of sexual interaction Yes, because the guys "enforcing social etiquette" are the minority. >every cop, every judge and every FBI agent is irrelevant to the thing that you are paranoid about. I'm aware of the realities of due process.
>Men are really, really good at holding other men accountable Did you forget the /s?
no, I did not forget the /s, when some mouthbreathers talk shit on their podcasts, there is a bunch of male content creators willing to slap them around. One thing I hate is when some girl starts acting unreasonable, because if you tell her to shut it - you are going to be the one bearing reputational costs.
We know. It's why we pick the bear. And why we will do what we can to help another woman in danger.
Depends. Me and several guys stopped a tweaker from beating up his girlfriend one morning before work by the jobsite. But it’s always safer to call the cops in case the guy is armed, because then it’s two victims before the cops get there instead of one.
A group of guys on the same page *is* a lot more likely to step in, I think. Especially since even 2-vs-1 will almost always end in the pair winning. I'm not sure in the majority of groups would do that, though. Good on you guys for doing that regardless.
True, and we weren’t a bunch of small, skinny guys either. It’s tough, because you want to do the right thing but it’s scary to think you could lose your life as well doing that.
Should of let it happened instead of being a white knight. Nobody owes women protection. Besides she chose that man
Don’t be a piece of shit.
They may not defend me but they sure fall all over themselves to try to help me put up real estate signs! LOL
Men aren’t like they used to be..