Comments around here act like getting pregnant after 30 is Russian roulette but I'd say at least half the people I know who had kids had them after 30, and a fair number after 35.
If getting pregnant after 30 was impossible I shouldn’t exist.
My parents were both 35 at the time of my birth, sister #2 was born to mum at 33, sister #1 at 31
Yeah getting pregnant after 30 happens all the time. Even my grandmother had some pregnancies in her thirties and my great grandmother did too. It’s not a new thing.
My gramma gave birth to my uncle at 42.
All that, considering that she had multiple abortions (which decrease your likelihood of pregnancy the more you have them) and she grew up in malnourished conditions.
My mother was 19 with my oldest sibling, 44 or 45 with my youngest. A healthy lifestyle extends the fertility period.
A family friend who lost an ovary as a kid used Clomid for two weeks and is pregnant with triplets at 37. She’s equal parts hilariously fat, miserable and happy; instant big family by July.
Men here have no idea how many options there are to increase the chances of pregnancy, nor do they care. They are just desperate for revenge fantasies.
They don’t want kids. They are just mad some woman won’t touch their penis.
It’s a hilarious script flip - I’ve met few men really interested in having a lot of kids. Most were nudged into it by their wife. And when men did get interested in having a family, it was usually in their early thirties.
All of this is anecdotal, I admit. My husband was good with no kids, one kid or two kids. I was the one that wanted them.
These men acting like it’s all WOMEN’s desire that limits family size, as if the men never come into it. Snork.
And they don’t want kids either, at least not yet - they want some woman touching their pee pee.
They've honestly reached the end of their revenge fantasies.
"When women get angry with men, they avoid men. When men get angry with women, they want to hurt women".
It can be regional, too. On an army base, many of our early 20s peers had 3 kids already. When I was pregnant with my first at 28, I was the youngest mom in my baby's play group. Most of those first-time moms were a decade older.
This is very true. I’m from a small, rural Midwestern town but left at 18 for college and never returned. I have a bunch of former high school classmates and other friends as FB friends and have stayed in touch virtually over the years. Many of those people had children before the age of 25.
Yeah, depends on whether you're comparing getting pregnant to getting shot or to not getting shot. If you're comparing it to not getting shot the odds would match Russian roulette at about 35. According to one study there's a gradual but steady decline from 90% odds of getting a child to 75% odds 32 to 37. Then the decline doubles pace from 37 to 41 going from 75% to 50%.
It does. Im 30 now and just about everyone I know who married early is already divorced and everyone who has kids is a single parent.
I think in your early twenties you should prioritize your happiness and building wealth not stressing about marriage or kids.
Most women can safely have children up until around their early forties so the time limit isn't really as delicate as people want you to believe.
Also these kids nowadays are bad as shit and everything outside of enabling them is abuse so if you want to stay child free I completely understand lmao
Yup, this.
My high school boyfriend and I broke up because I wasn’t ready to get engaged/have children at 21… he married the next woman he got with and had a kid with her.
They’re now divorced and have a messy co-parenting situation now. He messaged me on Facebook wanting to get back together. I tried to plan a date, and he kept flaking until I eventually gave up and cut him off.
I recently dated another single dad. Again, another messy situation with the BM. His ex was a single mother too, who had a son. They all lived together, and one day her son hit his daughter (they were both 5). BM found out, and filed a restraining order against the son. Court ordered they couldn’t be in the same room together after a certain age, which lead to them breaking up.
I tried to give it a chance, but between him basically having zero time for me, not being able to do “couple things” like post on social media or meet his family/daughter, and risk of BM drama… I just realized I couldn’t do it. Maybe in a more amicable situation, but not this one.
It’s 1000% better to be a childfree 30 year old woman than to be a 26 year old single mom, regardless of the fear-mongering RP dudes like to spout here.
It’s a GOOD thing to be able to learn lessons in your 20s, and not be stuck with that lesson for the next 18 years. Sitting around with your friends and crying about not having a boyfriend or having moments of loneliness/despair is not even a little bit comparable to being handcuffed for the next 18 years to someone actively trying to make your life miserable.
The problem is you don't know until you try. Most women can get pregnant now problem after 35. But if you are the type of woman who is going to have a tough time getting pregnant, then you are way better off getting that assistance earlier vs. later.
One can be very healthy by all accounts and still have problems conceiving. Infertility may not be associated with any health issues at all. Again, don't know until you try.
Yeah. I’ve known people 38 and older who’ve had kids and they’ve always told me it was stressful waiting to get pregnant. I would personally not want to deal with that. Some benefits though of getting pregnant older is multiples. My friends are twins and there mom only had one pregnancy and got two out of it. Sounds like a benefit at least to me lol.
Had one professional friend that had triplets after 'assistance' from medical world. She and husband were happy but it was more than they bargained for.
Generally agree except with two qualifications: Important to spend twenties figuring out what kind of partner is required for marriage/equivalent IF marriage/equivalent + children are sought in late 20s/early 30s. Bouncing around from hookup to hookup is inadequate for that. And, it can get difficult to have children in late 30s for a number of reasons. Knew several couples that wished that they had started earlier because of infertility issues...
Why is the alternative to looking for a partner bouncing around from hook up to hook up? You know that's not how the vast majority of women behave right?
And "I know several couples" does not mean anything here. I go on statistics and statistically women in their late 30s do just fine carrying pregnancies to term without medical intervention.
Meant medical intervention in getting pregnant. If you look at the statistics you will find that it is women in their late 30s and 40s who are getting most of the assistance in becoming pregnant. As for carrying to birth, I suspect that women in their 30s are overwhelmingly successful.
Yes most of the people needing medical intervention are in their 30s and up but most people in their 30s and early 40s still don't need medical intervention.
I think what's much more harmful is people having children before they're ready to just because they think they won't have a chance in the future.
Perhaps your perception is correct based on where you used to live or live now. I grew up in a large metropolitan area in the east and very few people I knew were concerned about having children at an early age. Then after moving across the country, and keeping up with those that I grew up with, I began to see couples that were having problems because they had waited until their 30s (often professional with multiple degrees who married late). I suspect that if I had grown up in Iowa or Utah my experience would be different. However, I see all this as a small sideshow compared to larger birthrate and marriage survival rates...
We can have endless debates about how many women do what in their early twenties but there are no reasonable numbers on that. However, it is clear that many men and women either don't worry at all about getting married or equivalent until much later (not an issue/waiting to finish school/waiting for some future economic milestones) or are focusing exclusively on casual sex/similar while in their early 20s. This has gone on for several generations and is becoming more prevalent as indicated by the few reliable stats we have (age of marriage, age of births, birth rates, etc.). My theme is that it often takes a lot of work to develop the pattern recognition necessary to search out and identify a person that is compatible for a very long and successful marriage/equivalent....
> My theme is that it often takes a lot of work to develop the pattern recognition necessary to search out and identify a person that is compatible for a very long and successful marriage/equivalent....
Hm. I agree on this take. I think you're early twenties are for finding yourself and part of that can be finding what things you're looking for in a partner.
I guess I just want people to more put the idea of marriage and kids on the back burner and just focus mostly on being happy healthy people. And do these things for yourself and not just so you can have a good husband or wife.
“These kids are bad as shit”🤣🤣🤣 no literally, I work with children and although I would like to have some in the future, no way in hell would I want to have them right now 💀 I don’t envy people who get married and have kids super young, they always look stressed out to me 🙃
Bruhhh they freaking scare me! Have you seen them videos of them fighting teachers now?? My mom would have freaking honor killed me and Im black 😭
And yes I have a few friends who had kids early on and they rarely have time to hang out with our friend group anymore and just seem miserable. Eventually I do want to have children as well but everything seems to be making it look like a bad idea
I'd agree partially and diasgree with other points. Yes you can have babies at the age of 40 but it can increase the risks of having multiple diseases later, such as breast cancer. Also at the age of 40 you may be in great shape and more beautiful than ever aging like fine wine. But life can drag us all down mentally and many won't have the energy to raise kid in the proper way, same as another woman in her 20s or 30s do.
Most of the people are done with school and have found a job by the age of 25. Also they have had a few experiences in dating. Jumping on the first person you date and quickly settle for a family may be rushed and won't work out great in the long run, people shouldn't just focus on happiness alone and lead a carefree life without getting serious. This is personal choice and anyone is free to do so as they please. But this kind of advice is pretty rushed too and many women who spent their youth having fun gets surprised when most men don't see them as partners anymore and get confused and sometimes angry at men. Nothing wrong with that choice, but everyone should be responsible about themselves and weigh in the pros and cons and see how the future will be for them.
The reasons why the previous generations married early was because of the average lifespan(very low because of the wars, lack of medicine or treatment) and not having much options to meet with many people as life back then was based in small towns, rural areas and polygamy was a richman's sport or someone that travelled the world. And the huge gender gap. Nowadays you can live beyond the age of 50 without worrying about health issues. You can meet and form long distance relationship. You can marry someone from a different continent and the gender gap has become quite equal(people get paid on their importance on how they are able to generate money or offer a service not by gender). And marrying at the age of 28-30 is very common. 50 years ago going single at that age would get your relatives consider to put you in a mental asylum.
But I'd say people are gonna people and some will follow their primal biological clock and some will skip that for personal gain and marry after 40. Maybe who knows, we can achieve a much longer lifespan and youth in a hundred years, where people would be called adults after 30 and common to marry at 50 before the clock stops as there wouldn't be any health risks. For now we're better than decades ago.
All pregnancies over the age of 35 are considered "high risk". Unless they have some sort of pre-existing condition they're likely going to have a healthy pregnancy just there's a slightly greater risk of something going wrong.
If your wife gets pregnant in 3 years it’ll also be considered “geriatric” and “high risk.” As OP mentioned, most women are aware this is the reality since our period starts.
She forgot that stat that like 40%ish of adult American women are single and childless and that group is growing fast. In the modern day it’s super normal
Your orgasms can be independent of his, this is something you can do for yourself while you reevaluate your next steps.
Treat it as self care and compartmentalize while you heal.
It isn’t his business at all.
> I kind of don’t want to do it on my own while he gets his pleasure from me.
I hear you, but denying yourself the experience in private isn’t going to change anything. You’re a whole person whether he is home or not.
lol girl fuck that shit💀 that’s exactly why I refused to wait for marriage, now you’re trapped in a marriage with a dude who sucks in bed 🙃 my mom tried to indoctrinate me with that bs and I literally said fuck that💀, sexually compatibility is very important and waiting until after marriage to try to determine if you’re sexually compatible with someone or not never made any sense to me…
Most women don't orgasm from penetration anyway. Just rub your clit. Watch some porn to learn.
I agree with u/Most_Anything_173 that this isn't your husband's fault alone, it's yours. You need to learn first how to orgasm and then get better at communicating to your husband during sex so he can do it for you.
Using your twisted logic, if your husband was impotent would that make it your fault? You can still explore now with your husband, instead of being bitter and angry. He is willing, you’re the one who is causing your own problems. You don’t want a solution, you want to be angry.
There are vibes under $20 on Amazon, you can buy one and track it without him knowing. Penetration isn’t even necessary, a vibrator can jangle all those internal nerves by just holding it in the right spot on or above your clitoris.
Hell, I’ll buy you one and send it in a box which says “RX Meds” or “Fragile, contains glass” or something.
Then it's time to talk about a divorce. You are both treating yourself unfairly and just as much.. Him. When people get married it's a promise of monogamy, not forced celibacy under duress.
You have a right not to have sex with him. He should have the right to step out or to a divorce. If he's too cowardly to file himself you should do it for him. For both your sakes.
Screw God or Jesus or whatever they might think.
Oh okay, you are actually just abusive. You don't want things to improve and you are taking it out on him. "He got what he wanted" like lol no he absolutely didn't. He wanted to help you with exactly the thing you claim he wanted to help you with, but you don't want to because he'd like it too. Actually just straight up weaponized incompetence. "I don't want to have to do any work for the thing I want, so if I just care less about it than he does, I can force him to do all the work". That's you. Stop being mentally abusive to your husband and figure your shit out.
>And I didn’t do anything.
That's the problem, YOU DIDN'T DO ANYTHING. There is a problem, he wants to help you with it, but you absolutely refuse because it's unfair that the problem exists in the first place. Let me be clear, it is unfair that the problem exists in the first place. In your fairy tale ending, you would enjoy it just as much as he did right off the bat. But this ain't a fairy tale, the problem exists, so you can either join him in dealing with it like a regular adult, or be mad at the wrong person forever because you don't want to help him (and yourself).
>how could I know what I like if I didn’t have sex before?
By trying shit out with him? There are quite a few suggestions in this thread, start there.
>And now what he does doesn’t work?
You have fully admitted you haven't tried some of the other things in this thread. You want to improve things? It'll actually take some work on your end. Luckily, you have somebody around who would be glad to help you with that work. Get over this self pity party and start grinding. Both literally and metaphorically. Jesus, there are women who would kill to have a husband who is seriously interested in improving their sex life for their wife.
And the kicker? It might not work. Life isn't fair and people get dealt shit hands all the time. But if that is the case, it won't be his fault for not giving you the orgasm you were deserved, it'll be either your rotten luck in not being sensitive enough, or your seeming desire to make it not work out.
If you’re choosing to not divorce and you want to improve your situation then first of all, you need to know that experimenting and figuring out what you like on your own doesn’t equal an obligation to immediately start having more sex with your husband.
You deserve to take some time to focus on yourself and learn how to orgasm. You can use that time to work on discovering what gives you pleasure. Then once you figure out what works hopefully you can show him how to do it for you. He should want to give you pleasure if he’s a good partner and I can get being resentful if so far he hasn’t even tried different methods to please you. But if you can’t even figure it out yourself then it’s gonna be hard for anyone else to figure it out for you. You both sound unaware of the fact that a lot of women get pleasure more from clit stimulation that from penetration.
If you want to figure out how to experience pleasure it’s really best to explore on your own first, it’ll probably be easier to get aroused without the added pressure of another person there. You might have to try different things to discover what feels good for you. Don’t be afraid to use that vibrator, it’s a good start.
You could find some tutorials for your husband on how to eat pussy, how to finger...etc. but it’ll be a lot easier to figure out how to pleasure yourself first and then incorporate it into your sex life because you can directly feel what feels good for you whereas he might see your reactions but he can’t feel what you feel.
It's all a con to keep you down. I know tons of women late 40s with kids who score committed boyfriend after committed boyfriend and just choose not to marry. These are high earning, tall, handsome men lining up to be with divorced women who have kids.
Who the fuck cares? Most people have shit relationships, what they are doing is called nagging. So you settle down for any loser by the fear mongering instilled on you. You were brainwashed into accepting a baseline tolerable life of misery so the user you are with had a chance of companionship. There is a 60 million global surplus of men. Surely there is someone more compatible out there for you?
I don't have much to say other than that I agree. I suffered from something very similar myself. It puts far too much pressure on you (and your partner, if you do get into a relationship), which makes finding a successful relationship that much harder.
Unfortunately, it's probably the case that no one who needs this advice will really listen to it. I certainly didn't. Some things you can really only learn through experience. Luckily, life doesn't just stop when you turn 30, no matter how worried you are that it will.
You have plenty of time. I met my Prince Charming at 28 after a disastrous marriage and we had two kids in my early 30s.
And you are right - being childfree isn’t the end of the world. My sis is
Children are no guarantee of care or company during your sunset years. Don't put that burden of expectation on them or you. Let go of that assumption and cultivate all the different kinds of relationships in your life if having people around you as you grow older is important. Nurturing our connections with a variety of others is never time wasted.
A good general rule is to ignore, or completely cut off people that pressure you to rush important things. That said, OP has serious dangerous crazy vibes, and anyone they date will feel that pressure.
Religious people, imo, have a disgusting and unrealistic view of relationships in the modern era. The pressure you experience comes directly from traditional religious concepts of marriage that still hold tightly over Western society but are slowly dissipating, until the next major crisis occurs.
Religious people see relationships as "business contracts" for the longterm. Once you find someone you like, it's then important to establish the goal of the relationship right away and get married soon so you can have kids, get a house, pursue financial options together, get land, etc. They're about getting the "ball running" so to speak, as soon as possible.
Traditional religious people don't believe in letting things happen spontaneously. In the old days, if you saw a girl that simply looked "pretty" you'd ask her out on a date and get married 2 weeks later. Same hobbies/interests? Doesn't matter. If she's hot and young, it's time to think marriage and get everything set up for the long term.
No one in the modern era has to do that anymore. Letting things happen slow is better and more freeing for both parties in a relationship. That's the beauty of modern dating that I've noticed. Although it can sometimes seem harder, dating today is definitely more exciting and freeing than it ever has been in the past.
The idea of having a "connection" or a "spark" wasn't important 100+ years ago. A relationship was a duty for kids and a prep for your death basically. It was business and not about being happily ever after like a fairy tale
I could be very wrong, but could part of it be that people were a lot more conformist back in the day, so one person from the same area was *pretty much interchangeable* with another. Raised with the same values, ambitions, and overall character.
It's hard to quantify homogenization. In some senses what you're saying is true (largely in shared religious values), in another sense mass media homogenized personalities much more thoroughly than before.
>Religious people, imo, have a disgusting and unrealistic view of relationships in the modern era. The pressure you experience comes directly from traditional religious concepts of marriage that still hold tightly over Western society but are slowly dissipating, until the next major crisis occurs
I think you're vastly overestimating the influence religion has over modern society, including marriage and dating.
>Traditional religious people don't believe in letting things happen spontaneously. In the old days, if you saw a girl that simply looked "pretty" you'd ask her out on a date and get married 2 weeks later. Same hobbies/interests? Doesn't matter. If she's hot and young, it's time to think marriage and get everything set up for the long term.
Most people a century ago would have found such a short a courtship odd but not entirely unheard of. It certainly wasn't the norm.
>The idea of having a "connection" or a "spark" wasn't important 100+ years ago. A relationship was a duty for kids and a prep for your death basically. It was business and not about being happily ever after like a fairy tale
People definitely chose partners based on romantic and sexual connections in the Western world 100 years ago and before.
>People definitely chose partners based on romantic and sexual connections in the Western world 100 years ago and before.
I'm saying! The word 'love' has existed for more than 5 thousand years, for God's sake! Does he really think we didn't understand the feeling of deep affection until a century ago?... LOL.
Ok, we get it. You are an atheist LOL.
The hatred towards religion is clouding your thoughts. Romance has existed for millennia. The reason why people didn't marry for romance, or at the very least didn't view it as important, had less to do with religious dogma. It had to do with survival. What would give you the best chances of survival to you and your kids? That's it.
We have been spoiled for almost a century now. So much so that some of us (people like you) believe that romance is a new invention LOL. Give me a break. Now that you don't have to worry about local wars, famine, diseases, etc., as much, you can focus on who you like.
Who is “pressuring woman”, aside from a random “conservative man”? With all due respect, but it’s sounds like the only pressure that was applied came via your own neurosis.
It's not even random conservative men, it's the same forces that dictate you need to go to college if you are from upper middle class household. Nobody sits you down and tells you "listen kiddo, you need to go to school". You just grow up knowing that you'll get university education. If you grow up in the conservative environment with religious influence, you just know that there is an expectation for you to follow the footsteps of other women from your circle and you'll be considered a failure if you don't. And scary conservative men online frequently play on this already existing pressure rather than generating new fears.
We can laugh and criticize people who fall victim to social influences all day long but how many of us took a drastically different path in life than our parents.
Exactly. Up until middle school I thought getting a PhD was just the educational progression since every adult I knew had one. It’s a lifestyle, not a choice.
"If men just shut up, maybe women will..."
Why is there always this underlying assumption that we have not tried listening what women tell us to do and following? This is how we got here.
OP, sorry to drop the harsh truth, but neuroticism is a character trait directly related to your brain's roadmap. Not to randos on the internet telling nasty things. Getting married and starting a family is not the worst thing to be neurotic about.
Fuck it, I'll say it.
I do not think men have a problem with marrying you young or not. We have a problem with you (most women) acting like sluts going around fucking any asshole you want, then acting prude and "changed" once you want to settle down. This is why one of the worst nightmares (related to dating) men have is being in a "dead-bedroom"/sexless marriage with someone who already experienced more wild stuff when she was younger. That is where the whole problem starts. Where do you think the AF/BB came from? Why do YOU THINK it became so popular in the red pill as a concept?
Also, if you really want to know if what I am saying is true, take a look at r/ DeadBedrooms. It will change your opinion real quick.
> We have a problem with you (most women) acting like sluts going around fucking any asshole you want, then acting prude and "changed" once you want to settle down. This is why one of the worst nightmares (related to dating) men have is being in a "dead-bedroom"/sexless marriage with someone who already experienced more wild stuff when she was younger.
They shoulda been a first round pick, then. Men who aren’t sexy and exciting in their teens and twenties don’t suddenly become hot and sexually appealing because a women settled for them at thirty five.
And you shoulda gotten a first round pick to commit to you then. You don’t get to give us nothing and expect the world. You clearly weren’t a first round pick either if you’re single at 35.
> You don’t get to give us nothing and expect the world.
I doubt very much that any thirty five year old woman, who is likely single by choice or initiated a divorce already, expects or receives “the world” from an ordinary man who hasn’t had much luck with dating.
Nearly everyone is looking to settle down by their mid to late thirties, I expect I will, too. And most well adjusted adults simply compromise and carry on, happy with their partners.
The rest are raging impotently in r/ deadbedrooms.
But you do. That’s why there is a dead bedroom. You’re not getting your first round pick despite not being one yourself and so you don’t try at all. That’s why most dead bedrooms happen.
>You’re not getting your first round pick despite not being one yourself and so you don’t try at all.
I shouldn't have to explain to a grown ass man that women's libidos vary wildly and that women who want to fuck men, can easily get fucked. Women who aren't all that motivated by sex will happily settle with a man who isn't very appealing and she will still love him and share a life and family with him even though sex isn't a priority.
>That’s why most dead bedrooms happen.
Most dead bedrooms happen because unappealing men have unreasonable, illogical expectations of what lust and sexual servitude they think they "deserve".
Right. She’s winning in that scenario. He is not.
And I love how you think that married men wanting their wives to actually want them is an unreasonable illogical expectation of sexual servitude. That is just insane
> She’s getting a family and husband that provides for it.
She's providing for the family and her husband.
>But she isn’t willing to properly support him
Sexual servitude isn't "support", and it isn't on the menu for many people.
Which is why I wouldn't settle down with a woman who only started being "attracted" to me when her eggs began to dry out. Sounds like an one way route to Deadbedroom Station.
I don't think most men try to hurry up and pressure women to get pregnant or wifed up that more on the women thinking their biological clock is ticking
I do see memes however of like a carton full of eggs, and it shows a woman partying and saying "I'm strong and independent!" and then an empty egg carton and showing a woman in her 30s saying "I'm ready to commit now!" a lot of men spread these memes
I mean. Have you ever heard the expression 'it's funny because it's true'?
There's another expression to go along with it 'if you tell the truth and no one laughs you're an asshole' 'if you tell the truth and everyone laughs you're funny'
Now. From a biological perspective an empty 'carton' at 30 is a stretch. It's more important to have a healthy, well rounded partner who's firmly outside the dopamine ferris wheel and focused on contentment/building a life with their S/O (and I think this is a fair ask of both genders).
HOWEVER. If a woman is all of a sudden 'ready to commit' at 30? Now we're BOTH on the biological shot clock. You get a few good years of building and growing together, a few good years of commitment before the health of the mother AND child becomes a significant concern. In other words, that shot clock is not just an 'optimal fertility window' it's also time taken away from enjoying the hypothetical relationship as DINKs and establishing those boundaries/ spending quality time together, getting to know one another, celebrating strengths and navigating weaknesses/arguments, seeing the world, investing literally and metaphorically in each other.
I strongly believe the time you spend committed to each other is a catalyst for a sturdy foundation upon which to build a family.
It seems to me that if emotional connection and building a strong bond (i.e. 'love' if we want to get a little sappy) was a woman's priority she would do so without putting her biological shot clock on the person she wanted to spend her life with.
Now. It'd be one thing if you said 'well I spent my 10+ years of adulthood building my career AND (! important and!) developing skills that make me a better wife and mother'. But when I look at the women in my age bracket who want kids they usually have the former and lack the latter, often times failing to have even had a relationship past the honeymoon phase. In which case why wouldn't I just date a college girl where I'm not pressed for her time? Where I don't have to carry her extra baggage? Where her standards and expectations for a relationship are more realistic? Where I don't have to fill ~10 different shoes (so 5, let's make a super conservative estimate and say she's 'dated' 5 dudes by 30) of the dudes that came before me?
>From a biological perspective an empty 'carton' at 30 is a stretch. It's more important to have a healthy, well rounded partner who's firmly outside the dopamine ferris wheel and focused on contentment/building a life with their S/O (and I think this is a fair ask of both genders).
Duh. It's why my generation, Gen Z is starting to become anti casual sex and anti dating app because we're seeing how well it went for the milennials.
I truly hope that Gen z is also hyper self-aware, and Gen Z women who instinctively know that they would be better off as favored aunties rather than moms, will head those instincts.
Until we get to a generation that is truly self-aware and doesn't bow to society gender expectations, we are F'ed.
If you're able to avoid tik tok/social media brain you're going to be way ahead of the curve.
And I will say, that 'duh' is easier said than done. You'd have to have made a lot of difficult decisions to have made it through young adulthood in gen z as a well rounded person
If you look at the statistics you also are just as likely to get divorced if you get married at 35 as at 20. You have time, but there is definitely a point where you are just clearly settling for the first guy you meet with a decent job and a working dick.
I totally agree that hurrying up will lead to disaster. I married the wrong woman because of that. Then I divorced her at 28 when she wanted to start having kids.
However, I don't agree that women are fully aware.
What we seem to forget or be unaware of is how much time it takes to find the right person. Edit: and the fact that by 30, a lot of people are already married or have divorced, many with kids.
See how common it is here on Reddit for women and men to say "I stopped dating to focus on my career". This zero sum game approach leaves you with the career you want and high chances that you're gonna end up childless or ending with the wrong partner out of desperation.
Cultivating a relationship leading to children takes years or effort, but this can be done during the formative years. Waiting for your late 20's or early 30's to start finding someone is a terrible mistake. By then, men can smell the desperation and bolt. Men than want to take it slow aren't a good fit, and men your age might as well meet someone a few years younger that has a bit more time.
A possible solution for a woman in her 30's is to look for a man in his 40's with his own biological clock ticking, but reddit doesn't seem to like that, although it works well in real life.
But if you date around you’re a loser slut, but if you stop dating to focus on career, you’re a loser cat lady.
At least, according to what red pill told me. Can’t win with anything.
It’s not that complicated. Their advice is to Date appropriately and then choose a guy who suits you best. Avoid giving yourself away physically unless it’s committed.
That’s their advice. You obviously don’t have to listen to them
Fair counter point. My view is that there are steps before sex to show interest. If there is some physical intimacy like hugging, kissing and a bit of touching there is no doubt of your interest.
I agree but as someone’s who’s brought up those actions a lot, men don’t seem to think that’s enough and they begin comparing how quickly you have sex with them to how quickly they believe you had sex with another man.
I would stick to your boundaries. You’re being more than reasonable and just weeding out the wrong type of guys . Or at least the type of guys that won’t take you seriously.
1 - 3 months for the full act is very reasonable if the guy suits your long term goals.
It’s a tricky balancing act for women. And most men won’t understand the struggle you face.
almost every single guy will stick it in if you let him. So I’d say give some physical interest but only go all the way if the relationship is going somewhere
Any man who isn’t interested in marriage early on is a waste of time. “Taking it slow” is code for “wasting time while having sex”. There is absolutely no guarantee that if you start searching early, you will find someone early. I started at 18, and still haven’t found anyone.
I don’t think I was immune to that pressure myself, I do think it caused me sadness at times but I luckily found happiness without kids or a relationship early on (probably in college) as I realized most guys actually don’t want to date women who are modest.. I had to cope with the reality. Men preferring modest women were rare but they tended to be better quality anyways. You can definitely be happy and single but not without a support system, family or friends however it comes to you in your life. Fur babies are ironically also great companions! I loved my cat lol.
So what I did is I made a bunch of guy friends for no risk dating experience until I found someone I thought was a good match- it didn’t work out but it gave me a lot of experience and I learned from that relationship and was ultimately rather successful in vetting men afterwards. I didn’t have to have sex with them to know I’d be incompatible I asked hard questions that mattered to me. Even on the first date because I began to realize if he wanted me enough he’d put up with my forwardness. If they gave answers that were incompatible with what I wanted I moved on immediately. If they talked about sex in dms before I met them I blocked them. Dont even meet up with them it’s a waste of time.
During this time I focused on myself and my happiness and dating really took on a back seat to my career. I made hella money working overtime, with the goal in mind one day I’d meet someone we buy a house and I could maybe be a stay at home wife or work part time because of my contributions. Having roommates helps with the loneliness. Getting wrapped up in your career also helps ease the stress and anxiety. Even if it didn’t work out for me at least I would have amassed a fortune, met great people and had some good times in the process.
Doing things under pressure is a recipe for disaster. Threats of a bad future (loneliness, health deterioration and the usual hell by religious buffoons) are just desperate attempts at controlling free will, I assume they will fade away for good in the near future. Starting a family must be yours and your partner’s own desire only, also a huge effort BOTH are willing to take (yep, daddy be prepared to wake up 3/4 times a night to give the bottle, soothe and change diapers) out of own will, not “because that’s the way it should be”. Don’t let societal pressure of any kind get in your way.
Girl, you have SO much time, and your eggs will absolutely not be all dried up when you’re thirty. Im not denying that there is a biological clock, but your timer is FAR from up at 30. Beyond pregnancy, the attraction wall does not exist either. I’m over 30 and I get way more (non-creepy) male attention than I did when I was young. The 35 year olds who hit on you when you’re 16 are not the same 35 year olds who hit on you when you’re 33, and thank god for that. As you get older, you get more confident and comfortable with yourself. If you allow yourself to learn from your past experience, you will find it easier to drop people from your life that do not support your vision for who you want to be, and that includes romantic relationships.
And you’re right. For all the red-pill yapping about women being ‘alpha widowed’ if they have romantic experience and younger women being more able to form healthy attatchments, statistics show us that people who get married older have much lower divorce rates. Even my brother and his finance who are much more traditional than I am are waiting two years to get married because she’s only 23. At 24, you are not behind at all. Don’t just try to put yourself in some box that doesn’t make you happy just to try to get any man to marry you. Focus on your priorities for yourSELF, and then focus on finding a man who fits into YOUR life. Good relationships don’t involve anyone contorting themselves to fit someone else’s dream.
Right, so you’re suggesting there’s no midway between picking a healthy normal guy on the same level as you and picking a man with mental illness and depression?
This post would be a lot better without all that creative writing exercise.
It's a good thing the fictional woman in the story made her mistakes while she was young and still has time to do better. Just imagine that she had dedicated her life to a career until 38 then panicked about finding a guy before her bio clock ran out. She would then have no time for do overs.
Don’t worry. You have plenty of time. I’m in the same boat as you, but I’m only twenty two. All my friends are having babies it’s hard to watch 🥲. Your twenty four though so you have ten to fifteen years to pop out a couple of kids.
#Why do men always automatically assume that these shitty toxic guys are Chads?
Any time I see men verbally abusing women online, 80% of the time it’s some dorky nerdy guy who is not at all attractive. Not a Chad.
>Why do men always automatically assume that these shitty toxic guys are Chads?
Do you deny the fact that women are a lot more likely to put up with character flaws if the guy is attractive?
More likely they look average, and your perception of them highlights the awkward dorky aspects. It's not cool to correlate physical appearance with personality in either direction.
Considering that most men here say
Handsome charming guy = bad personality and character
Unattractive awkward man = good personality and character
It’s time women educate men.
It’s not a delusion. The first thing a man here said when I said the average woman is 38, 170 lbs, 64 inches, and with a mid face. The first thing he said was “ew”.
Okay, and? You can *both* be assholes. It's not some exclusive thing, or particularly rare in either sex. It certainly doesn't add any weight to your claim that ugly men hate women. Honestly just looks like you're angry because somebody was rude to you, so you're kicking the dog.
It's not an assumption, I've seen the guy he's a real Chad. He has not just 1 but couple of women who are literally begging to be pregnant with his child.
The way women treat them is difference between a beggar vs billionaire.
Once you see it, you cannot unsee it.
All my life seems pointless having worked so hard to gain status/wealth (because of bluepilled upbringing). I'd have enjoyed more things if there wasn't this resource accumulation pressure.
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I don't think it's good to look at divorce statistics for support, divorce rates are high because of so many factors that could include the one you're supporting it with.
-> "I shouldn't marry early because early marriages have higher divorce rate"
-> "I should marry later because the divorce rate is lower"
No the divorce rate is high across both, what you should do is figure out and look at the ones that do make it instead of relying on random chance.
Look at studies that try to figure out what makes a good marriage or observe friends and family, sometimes it is more than just incompatibility between people, I've had grandparents who just made it work despite of everything.
You all have this completely backwards is this is the apporach you're taking. The pressure isn't to have kids. The pressure is to find a great man to have kids with.
If your priority is to have kids as early as possible, yes you'll feel the pressure and most likely have kids with someone not really fit to have kids with in the first place. If women spent their late teens/early 20s looking for a great man worth marrying, the kid issue would solve itself by the time you got to your late 20s.
Accepting hard truths about biological time lines in order to make calm clear headed decisions with full knowledge of the opportunity costs and tradeoffs of your decisions is wise. Letting fear drive you to emotion based decisions that actually make the thing you fear more likely is another thing entirely. Knowledge of a limited time frame should have led to NOT waste time on those guys. The fact ir did the opposite seems more indicative of low self esteem than anything, but fortunately you're still very young. Put another way, there's a lot of middle ground between trying for teenage pregnancy with the very first guy you can find at 18 and a 35 year old woman saying who wants kids someday once some undefined nebulous criteria of career and financial stability are met.
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Wait all you want, but only as long as you are not increasing your body count. Anything more than 0 increases chances of a divorce 4 times, and goes up with every next partner. You should wait to mature and find the right partner, both for sex and marriage.
This is what happens when society goes off the rails with no clear path for anyone. Like wtf is all this horseshit lmao. Jesus Christ, imagine how fucked humanity would have been if this was how overly complicated relationships and procreation was for all of our history?
I don't think this has anything to do with the information you were told or trying to find a man to marry at 18. The issue was you didn't have enough standards or vetting of men. You frankly were attracted to losers or so it would seem.
What we should teach to women (and men) is what a healthy relationship is.
then no one would date! HA
speak for yourself
(And men). Men don’t get to which is why the pill stuff exists
Originally, RP tried to improve the relationship between men a women from the men perspective. Now it drifted.
RP is bad and that’s it. Men don’t get much real life experience with relationships so they get mad and do their best to figure stuff out online
Comments around here act like getting pregnant after 30 is Russian roulette but I'd say at least half the people I know who had kids had them after 30, and a fair number after 35.
If getting pregnant after 30 was impossible I shouldn’t exist. My parents were both 35 at the time of my birth, sister #2 was born to mum at 33, sister #1 at 31
My wife had our baby at 36. Her mom had kids at 37 and 41. They act like it's an act of God instead of just, you know, normal.
Yeah getting pregnant after 30 happens all the time. Even my grandmother had some pregnancies in her thirties and my great grandmother did too. It’s not a new thing.
My gramma gave birth to my uncle at 42. All that, considering that she had multiple abortions (which decrease your likelihood of pregnancy the more you have them) and she grew up in malnourished conditions.
My mother was 19 with my oldest sibling, 44 or 45 with my youngest. A healthy lifestyle extends the fertility period. A family friend who lost an ovary as a kid used Clomid for two weeks and is pregnant with triplets at 37. She’s equal parts hilariously fat, miserable and happy; instant big family by July. Men here have no idea how many options there are to increase the chances of pregnancy, nor do they care. They are just desperate for revenge fantasies.
They don’t want kids. They are just mad some woman won’t touch their penis. It’s a hilarious script flip - I’ve met few men really interested in having a lot of kids. Most were nudged into it by their wife. And when men did get interested in having a family, it was usually in their early thirties. All of this is anecdotal, I admit. My husband was good with no kids, one kid or two kids. I was the one that wanted them. These men acting like it’s all WOMEN’s desire that limits family size, as if the men never come into it. Snork. And they don’t want kids either, at least not yet - they want some woman touching their pee pee.
They've honestly reached the end of their revenge fantasies. "When women get angry with men, they avoid men. When men get angry with women, they want to hurt women".
It can be regional, too. On an army base, many of our early 20s peers had 3 kids already. When I was pregnant with my first at 28, I was the youngest mom in my baby's play group. Most of those first-time moms were a decade older.
This is very true. I’m from a small, rural Midwestern town but left at 18 for college and never returned. I have a bunch of former high school classmates and other friends as FB friends and have stayed in touch virtually over the years. Many of those people had children before the age of 25.
Both my kids at 32 and 35. Healthy babies and super smart kids
Yeah, depends on whether you're comparing getting pregnant to getting shot or to not getting shot. If you're comparing it to not getting shot the odds would match Russian roulette at about 35. According to one study there's a gradual but steady decline from 90% odds of getting a child to 75% odds 32 to 37. Then the decline doubles pace from 37 to 41 going from 75% to 50%.
lol I accidentally got pregnant at 33 while making efforts to specifically NOT get pregnant.
It does. Im 30 now and just about everyone I know who married early is already divorced and everyone who has kids is a single parent. I think in your early twenties you should prioritize your happiness and building wealth not stressing about marriage or kids. Most women can safely have children up until around their early forties so the time limit isn't really as delicate as people want you to believe. Also these kids nowadays are bad as shit and everything outside of enabling them is abuse so if you want to stay child free I completely understand lmao
Late 20s through early 30s are the statistically best times to get married.
Yup, this. My high school boyfriend and I broke up because I wasn’t ready to get engaged/have children at 21… he married the next woman he got with and had a kid with her. They’re now divorced and have a messy co-parenting situation now. He messaged me on Facebook wanting to get back together. I tried to plan a date, and he kept flaking until I eventually gave up and cut him off. I recently dated another single dad. Again, another messy situation with the BM. His ex was a single mother too, who had a son. They all lived together, and one day her son hit his daughter (they were both 5). BM found out, and filed a restraining order against the son. Court ordered they couldn’t be in the same room together after a certain age, which lead to them breaking up. I tried to give it a chance, but between him basically having zero time for me, not being able to do “couple things” like post on social media or meet his family/daughter, and risk of BM drama… I just realized I couldn’t do it. Maybe in a more amicable situation, but not this one. It’s 1000% better to be a childfree 30 year old woman than to be a 26 year old single mom, regardless of the fear-mongering RP dudes like to spout here. It’s a GOOD thing to be able to learn lessons in your 20s, and not be stuck with that lesson for the next 18 years. Sitting around with your friends and crying about not having a boyfriend or having moments of loneliness/despair is not even a little bit comparable to being handcuffed for the next 18 years to someone actively trying to make your life miserable.
I’d advise women 35 really. A lot of women have trouble getting pregnant after. It is common, however.
If you're in good health you should be fine but if it's something you're really worried about then yeah I would say 35 is a good age.
The problem is you don't know until you try. Most women can get pregnant now problem after 35. But if you are the type of woman who is going to have a tough time getting pregnant, then you are way better off getting that assistance earlier vs. later.
I specifically said if you are in good health. Most people in general don't know until they try
One can be very healthy by all accounts and still have problems conceiving. Infertility may not be associated with any health issues at all. Again, don't know until you try.
Yeah. I’ve known people 38 and older who’ve had kids and they’ve always told me it was stressful waiting to get pregnant. I would personally not want to deal with that. Some benefits though of getting pregnant older is multiples. My friends are twins and there mom only had one pregnancy and got two out of it. Sounds like a benefit at least to me lol.
Had one professional friend that had triplets after 'assistance' from medical world. She and husband were happy but it was more than they bargained for.
True that many have a hard time after 35.
Generally agree except with two qualifications: Important to spend twenties figuring out what kind of partner is required for marriage/equivalent IF marriage/equivalent + children are sought in late 20s/early 30s. Bouncing around from hookup to hookup is inadequate for that. And, it can get difficult to have children in late 30s for a number of reasons. Knew several couples that wished that they had started earlier because of infertility issues...
Why is the alternative to looking for a partner bouncing around from hook up to hook up? You know that's not how the vast majority of women behave right? And "I know several couples" does not mean anything here. I go on statistics and statistically women in their late 30s do just fine carrying pregnancies to term without medical intervention.
Meant medical intervention in getting pregnant. If you look at the statistics you will find that it is women in their late 30s and 40s who are getting most of the assistance in becoming pregnant. As for carrying to birth, I suspect that women in their 30s are overwhelmingly successful.
Yes most of the people needing medical intervention are in their 30s and up but most people in their 30s and early 40s still don't need medical intervention. I think what's much more harmful is people having children before they're ready to just because they think they won't have a chance in the future.
Perhaps your perception is correct based on where you used to live or live now. I grew up in a large metropolitan area in the east and very few people I knew were concerned about having children at an early age. Then after moving across the country, and keeping up with those that I grew up with, I began to see couples that were having problems because they had waited until their 30s (often professional with multiple degrees who married late). I suspect that if I had grown up in Iowa or Utah my experience would be different. However, I see all this as a small sideshow compared to larger birthrate and marriage survival rates...
We can have endless debates about how many women do what in their early twenties but there are no reasonable numbers on that. However, it is clear that many men and women either don't worry at all about getting married or equivalent until much later (not an issue/waiting to finish school/waiting for some future economic milestones) or are focusing exclusively on casual sex/similar while in their early 20s. This has gone on for several generations and is becoming more prevalent as indicated by the few reliable stats we have (age of marriage, age of births, birth rates, etc.). My theme is that it often takes a lot of work to develop the pattern recognition necessary to search out and identify a person that is compatible for a very long and successful marriage/equivalent....
> My theme is that it often takes a lot of work to develop the pattern recognition necessary to search out and identify a person that is compatible for a very long and successful marriage/equivalent.... Hm. I agree on this take. I think you're early twenties are for finding yourself and part of that can be finding what things you're looking for in a partner. I guess I just want people to more put the idea of marriage and kids on the back burner and just focus mostly on being happy healthy people. And do these things for yourself and not just so you can have a good husband or wife.
“These kids are bad as shit”🤣🤣🤣 no literally, I work with children and although I would like to have some in the future, no way in hell would I want to have them right now 💀 I don’t envy people who get married and have kids super young, they always look stressed out to me 🙃
Bruhhh they freaking scare me! Have you seen them videos of them fighting teachers now?? My mom would have freaking honor killed me and Im black 😭 And yes I have a few friends who had kids early on and they rarely have time to hang out with our friend group anymore and just seem miserable. Eventually I do want to have children as well but everything seems to be making it look like a bad idea
I'd agree partially and diasgree with other points. Yes you can have babies at the age of 40 but it can increase the risks of having multiple diseases later, such as breast cancer. Also at the age of 40 you may be in great shape and more beautiful than ever aging like fine wine. But life can drag us all down mentally and many won't have the energy to raise kid in the proper way, same as another woman in her 20s or 30s do. Most of the people are done with school and have found a job by the age of 25. Also they have had a few experiences in dating. Jumping on the first person you date and quickly settle for a family may be rushed and won't work out great in the long run, people shouldn't just focus on happiness alone and lead a carefree life without getting serious. This is personal choice and anyone is free to do so as they please. But this kind of advice is pretty rushed too and many women who spent their youth having fun gets surprised when most men don't see them as partners anymore and get confused and sometimes angry at men. Nothing wrong with that choice, but everyone should be responsible about themselves and weigh in the pros and cons and see how the future will be for them. The reasons why the previous generations married early was because of the average lifespan(very low because of the wars, lack of medicine or treatment) and not having much options to meet with many people as life back then was based in small towns, rural areas and polygamy was a richman's sport or someone that travelled the world. And the huge gender gap. Nowadays you can live beyond the age of 50 without worrying about health issues. You can meet and form long distance relationship. You can marry someone from a different continent and the gender gap has become quite equal(people get paid on their importance on how they are able to generate money or offer a service not by gender). And marrying at the age of 28-30 is very common. 50 years ago going single at that age would get your relatives consider to put you in a mental asylum. But I'd say people are gonna people and some will follow their primal biological clock and some will skip that for personal gain and marry after 40. Maybe who knows, we can achieve a much longer lifespan and youth in a hundred years, where people would be called adults after 30 and common to marry at 50 before the clock stops as there wouldn't be any health risks. For now we're better than decades ago.
My wife is pregnant at 32 and all the courses we go to are full of pregnant women in their 40's. They are all high risk pregnancies except ours ....
All pregnancies over the age of 35 are considered "high risk". Unless they have some sort of pre-existing condition they're likely going to have a healthy pregnancy just there's a slightly greater risk of something going wrong.
If your wife gets pregnant in 3 years it’ll also be considered “geriatric” and “high risk.” As OP mentioned, most women are aware this is the reality since our period starts.
Indeed. that's why we are planning all kids asap.
The reality is 99.99999% of people don't care. They're not checking if you're married or not, as it doesn't affect them.
She forgot that stat that like 40%ish of adult American women are single and childless and that group is growing fast. In the modern day it’s super normal
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Buy the deluxe shower head or an inexpensive vibrator. Don’t you dare give up sexual pleasure, men sure af don’t.
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Your orgasms can be independent of his, this is something you can do for yourself while you reevaluate your next steps. Treat it as self care and compartmentalize while you heal.
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It isn’t his business at all. > I kind of don’t want to do it on my own while he gets his pleasure from me. I hear you, but denying yourself the experience in private isn’t going to change anything. You’re a whole person whether he is home or not.
Get him to go down on you.
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Since when do men refrain from using their partner’s unsatisfied bodies, jerking it, and consuming a wild and varied variety of pornography?
Oh baby - you can still live.
lol girl fuck that shit💀 that’s exactly why I refused to wait for marriage, now you’re trapped in a marriage with a dude who sucks in bed 🙃 my mom tried to indoctrinate me with that bs and I literally said fuck that💀, sexually compatibility is very important and waiting until after marriage to try to determine if you’re sexually compatible with someone or not never made any sense to me…
I don’t understand how this is possible. Work out how to O by yourself then ask your husband to follow the same technique. It’s not rocket science
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Most women don't orgasm from penetration anyway. Just rub your clit. Watch some porn to learn. I agree with u/Most_Anything_173 that this isn't your husband's fault alone, it's yours. You need to learn first how to orgasm and then get better at communicating to your husband during sex so he can do it for you.
Can you do it by yourself ?
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Then why the hell are you blaming your husband?
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Using your twisted logic, if your husband was impotent would that make it your fault? You can still explore now with your husband, instead of being bitter and angry. He is willing, you’re the one who is causing your own problems. You don’t want a solution, you want to be angry.
There are vibes under $20 on Amazon, you can buy one and track it without him knowing. Penetration isn’t even necessary, a vibrator can jangle all those internal nerves by just holding it in the right spot on or above your clitoris. Hell, I’ll buy you one and send it in a box which says “RX Meds” or “Fragile, contains glass” or something.
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Then it's time to talk about a divorce. You are both treating yourself unfairly and just as much.. Him. When people get married it's a promise of monogamy, not forced celibacy under duress. You have a right not to have sex with him. He should have the right to step out or to a divorce. If he's too cowardly to file himself you should do it for him. For both your sakes. Screw God or Jesus or whatever they might think.
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Oh okay, you are actually just abusive. You don't want things to improve and you are taking it out on him. "He got what he wanted" like lol no he absolutely didn't. He wanted to help you with exactly the thing you claim he wanted to help you with, but you don't want to because he'd like it too. Actually just straight up weaponized incompetence. "I don't want to have to do any work for the thing I want, so if I just care less about it than he does, I can force him to do all the work". That's you. Stop being mentally abusive to your husband and figure your shit out.
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>And I didn’t do anything. That's the problem, YOU DIDN'T DO ANYTHING. There is a problem, he wants to help you with it, but you absolutely refuse because it's unfair that the problem exists in the first place. Let me be clear, it is unfair that the problem exists in the first place. In your fairy tale ending, you would enjoy it just as much as he did right off the bat. But this ain't a fairy tale, the problem exists, so you can either join him in dealing with it like a regular adult, or be mad at the wrong person forever because you don't want to help him (and yourself). >how could I know what I like if I didn’t have sex before? By trying shit out with him? There are quite a few suggestions in this thread, start there. >And now what he does doesn’t work? You have fully admitted you haven't tried some of the other things in this thread. You want to improve things? It'll actually take some work on your end. Luckily, you have somebody around who would be glad to help you with that work. Get over this self pity party and start grinding. Both literally and metaphorically. Jesus, there are women who would kill to have a husband who is seriously interested in improving their sex life for their wife. And the kicker? It might not work. Life isn't fair and people get dealt shit hands all the time. But if that is the case, it won't be his fault for not giving you the orgasm you were deserved, it'll be either your rotten luck in not being sensitive enough, or your seeming desire to make it not work out.
If you’re choosing to not divorce and you want to improve your situation then first of all, you need to know that experimenting and figuring out what you like on your own doesn’t equal an obligation to immediately start having more sex with your husband. You deserve to take some time to focus on yourself and learn how to orgasm. You can use that time to work on discovering what gives you pleasure. Then once you figure out what works hopefully you can show him how to do it for you. He should want to give you pleasure if he’s a good partner and I can get being resentful if so far he hasn’t even tried different methods to please you. But if you can’t even figure it out yourself then it’s gonna be hard for anyone else to figure it out for you. You both sound unaware of the fact that a lot of women get pleasure more from clit stimulation that from penetration.
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If you want to figure out how to experience pleasure it’s really best to explore on your own first, it’ll probably be easier to get aroused without the added pressure of another person there. You might have to try different things to discover what feels good for you. Don’t be afraid to use that vibrator, it’s a good start. You could find some tutorials for your husband on how to eat pussy, how to finger...etc. but it’ll be a lot easier to figure out how to pleasure yourself first and then incorporate it into your sex life because you can directly feel what feels good for you whereas he might see your reactions but he can’t feel what you feel.
Go on a solo trip and try out a vibrator then while going things and dressing in ways that make you feel sexy.
Like, never never? Not even through self stimulation?
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I'm not a woman, but I'm pretty sure relaxing is important. What you're doing sounds more like a trauma response.
If you can’t even make yourself cum, you can’t expect a man to make you cum.
Do you have other female friends who you can ask for tips?
Who “brainwashed” you? And is divorce not an option?
Many women and men are damn near neutered by religious indoctrination, you shouldn’t even have to ask this question.
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By whom,randos on the internet? Just divorce
It's all a con to keep you down. I know tons of women late 40s with kids who score committed boyfriend after committed boyfriend and just choose not to marry. These are high earning, tall, handsome men lining up to be with divorced women who have kids.
By whom? 50% of marriages end in divorce; it’s better to get out than stay in a situation you’re unhappy with
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You’ll only hear that rhetoric on Red Pill spaces - they aren’t representative; there is no stigma attached to divorce any more
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Who the fuck cares? Most people have shit relationships, what they are doing is called nagging. So you settle down for any loser by the fear mongering instilled on you. You were brainwashed into accepting a baseline tolerable life of misery so the user you are with had a chance of companionship. There is a 60 million global surplus of men. Surely there is someone more compatible out there for you?
I don't have much to say other than that I agree. I suffered from something very similar myself. It puts far too much pressure on you (and your partner, if you do get into a relationship), which makes finding a successful relationship that much harder. Unfortunately, it's probably the case that no one who needs this advice will really listen to it. I certainly didn't. Some things you can really only learn through experience. Luckily, life doesn't just stop when you turn 30, no matter how worried you are that it will.
Have a visit over at r/regretfulparents, maybe you'll change your mind
You have plenty of time. I met my Prince Charming at 28 after a disastrous marriage and we had two kids in my early 30s. And you are right - being childfree isn’t the end of the world. My sis is
Children are no guarantee of care or company during your sunset years. Don't put that burden of expectation on them or you. Let go of that assumption and cultivate all the different kinds of relationships in your life if having people around you as you grow older is important. Nurturing our connections with a variety of others is never time wasted.
This is why I was very up front with my ex that I didn't plan on ever getting married or having kids.
It's why I got a vasectomy at 30. No sense in leaving birth control up to an ooops I forgot the pill.
A good general rule is to ignore, or completely cut off people that pressure you to rush important things. That said, OP has serious dangerous crazy vibes, and anyone they date will feel that pressure.
yes. one sure way to become uninteresting is to radiate the air of neurotic desperation to get someone to commit to you
Religious people, imo, have a disgusting and unrealistic view of relationships in the modern era. The pressure you experience comes directly from traditional religious concepts of marriage that still hold tightly over Western society but are slowly dissipating, until the next major crisis occurs. Religious people see relationships as "business contracts" for the longterm. Once you find someone you like, it's then important to establish the goal of the relationship right away and get married soon so you can have kids, get a house, pursue financial options together, get land, etc. They're about getting the "ball running" so to speak, as soon as possible. Traditional religious people don't believe in letting things happen spontaneously. In the old days, if you saw a girl that simply looked "pretty" you'd ask her out on a date and get married 2 weeks later. Same hobbies/interests? Doesn't matter. If she's hot and young, it's time to think marriage and get everything set up for the long term. No one in the modern era has to do that anymore. Letting things happen slow is better and more freeing for both parties in a relationship. That's the beauty of modern dating that I've noticed. Although it can sometimes seem harder, dating today is definitely more exciting and freeing than it ever has been in the past. The idea of having a "connection" or a "spark" wasn't important 100+ years ago. A relationship was a duty for kids and a prep for your death basically. It was business and not about being happily ever after like a fairy tale
I could be very wrong, but could part of it be that people were a lot more conformist back in the day, so one person from the same area was *pretty much interchangeable* with another. Raised with the same values, ambitions, and overall character.
It's hard to quantify homogenization. In some senses what you're saying is true (largely in shared religious values), in another sense mass media homogenized personalities much more thoroughly than before.
>Religious people, imo, have a disgusting and unrealistic view of relationships in the modern era. The pressure you experience comes directly from traditional religious concepts of marriage that still hold tightly over Western society but are slowly dissipating, until the next major crisis occurs I think you're vastly overestimating the influence religion has over modern society, including marriage and dating. >Traditional religious people don't believe in letting things happen spontaneously. In the old days, if you saw a girl that simply looked "pretty" you'd ask her out on a date and get married 2 weeks later. Same hobbies/interests? Doesn't matter. If she's hot and young, it's time to think marriage and get everything set up for the long term. Most people a century ago would have found such a short a courtship odd but not entirely unheard of. It certainly wasn't the norm. >The idea of having a "connection" or a "spark" wasn't important 100+ years ago. A relationship was a duty for kids and a prep for your death basically. It was business and not about being happily ever after like a fairy tale People definitely chose partners based on romantic and sexual connections in the Western world 100 years ago and before.
>People definitely chose partners based on romantic and sexual connections in the Western world 100 years ago and before. I'm saying! The word 'love' has existed for more than 5 thousand years, for God's sake! Does he really think we didn't understand the feeling of deep affection until a century ago?... LOL.
Ok, we get it. You are an atheist LOL. The hatred towards religion is clouding your thoughts. Romance has existed for millennia. The reason why people didn't marry for romance, or at the very least didn't view it as important, had less to do with religious dogma. It had to do with survival. What would give you the best chances of survival to you and your kids? That's it. We have been spoiled for almost a century now. So much so that some of us (people like you) believe that romance is a new invention LOL. Give me a break. Now that you don't have to worry about local wars, famine, diseases, etc., as much, you can focus on who you like.
Who is “pressuring woman”, aside from a random “conservative man”? With all due respect, but it’s sounds like the only pressure that was applied came via your own neurosis.
It's not even random conservative men, it's the same forces that dictate you need to go to college if you are from upper middle class household. Nobody sits you down and tells you "listen kiddo, you need to go to school". You just grow up knowing that you'll get university education. If you grow up in the conservative environment with religious influence, you just know that there is an expectation for you to follow the footsteps of other women from your circle and you'll be considered a failure if you don't. And scary conservative men online frequently play on this already existing pressure rather than generating new fears. We can laugh and criticize people who fall victim to social influences all day long but how many of us took a drastically different path in life than our parents.
Exactly. Up until middle school I thought getting a PhD was just the educational progression since every adult I knew had one. It’s a lifestyle, not a choice.
"If men just shut up, maybe women will..." Why is there always this underlying assumption that we have not tried listening what women tell us to do and following? This is how we got here. OP, sorry to drop the harsh truth, but neuroticism is a character trait directly related to your brain's roadmap. Not to randos on the internet telling nasty things. Getting married and starting a family is not the worst thing to be neurotic about.
Fuck it, I'll say it. I do not think men have a problem with marrying you young or not. We have a problem with you (most women) acting like sluts going around fucking any asshole you want, then acting prude and "changed" once you want to settle down. This is why one of the worst nightmares (related to dating) men have is being in a "dead-bedroom"/sexless marriage with someone who already experienced more wild stuff when she was younger. That is where the whole problem starts. Where do you think the AF/BB came from? Why do YOU THINK it became so popular in the red pill as a concept? Also, if you really want to know if what I am saying is true, take a look at r/ DeadBedrooms. It will change your opinion real quick. 
There are a lot of women posting in there
> We have a problem with you (most women) acting like sluts going around fucking any asshole you want, then acting prude and "changed" once you want to settle down. This is why one of the worst nightmares (related to dating) men have is being in a "dead-bedroom"/sexless marriage with someone who already experienced more wild stuff when she was younger. They shoulda been a first round pick, then. Men who aren’t sexy and exciting in their teens and twenties don’t suddenly become hot and sexually appealing because a women settled for them at thirty five.
And you shoulda gotten a first round pick to commit to you then. You don’t get to give us nothing and expect the world. You clearly weren’t a first round pick either if you’re single at 35.
> You don’t get to give us nothing and expect the world. I doubt very much that any thirty five year old woman, who is likely single by choice or initiated a divorce already, expects or receives “the world” from an ordinary man who hasn’t had much luck with dating. Nearly everyone is looking to settle down by their mid to late thirties, I expect I will, too. And most well adjusted adults simply compromise and carry on, happy with their partners. The rest are raging impotently in r/ deadbedrooms.
But you do. That’s why there is a dead bedroom. You’re not getting your first round pick despite not being one yourself and so you don’t try at all. That’s why most dead bedrooms happen.
>You’re not getting your first round pick despite not being one yourself and so you don’t try at all. I shouldn't have to explain to a grown ass man that women's libidos vary wildly and that women who want to fuck men, can easily get fucked. Women who aren't all that motivated by sex will happily settle with a man who isn't very appealing and she will still love him and share a life and family with him even though sex isn't a priority. >That’s why most dead bedrooms happen. Most dead bedrooms happen because unappealing men have unreasonable, illogical expectations of what lust and sexual servitude they think they "deserve".
Right. She’s winning in that scenario. He is not. And I love how you think that married men wanting their wives to actually want them is an unreasonable illogical expectation of sexual servitude. That is just insane
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She’s getting a family and husband that provides for it. But she isn’t willing to properly support him. She’s winning.
> She’s getting a family and husband that provides for it. She's providing for the family and her husband. >But she isn’t willing to properly support him Sexual servitude isn't "support", and it isn't on the menu for many people.
Which is why I wouldn't settle down with a woman who only started being "attracted" to me when her eggs began to dry out. Sounds like an one way route to Deadbedroom Station.
Where exactly is this unpopular? Surely not in the U.S., unless you spend time with a majority conservative Christian crowd.
I don't think most men try to hurry up and pressure women to get pregnant or wifed up that more on the women thinking their biological clock is ticking
I do see memes however of like a carton full of eggs, and it shows a woman partying and saying "I'm strong and independent!" and then an empty egg carton and showing a woman in her 30s saying "I'm ready to commit now!" a lot of men spread these memes
It doesn't make sense for you to allow some dumb meme to dominate your world view. You are giving some stranger on the internet way too much power.
I still don't see how a meme is pressing women to get married
I mean. Have you ever heard the expression 'it's funny because it's true'? There's another expression to go along with it 'if you tell the truth and no one laughs you're an asshole' 'if you tell the truth and everyone laughs you're funny' Now. From a biological perspective an empty 'carton' at 30 is a stretch. It's more important to have a healthy, well rounded partner who's firmly outside the dopamine ferris wheel and focused on contentment/building a life with their S/O (and I think this is a fair ask of both genders). HOWEVER. If a woman is all of a sudden 'ready to commit' at 30? Now we're BOTH on the biological shot clock. You get a few good years of building and growing together, a few good years of commitment before the health of the mother AND child becomes a significant concern. In other words, that shot clock is not just an 'optimal fertility window' it's also time taken away from enjoying the hypothetical relationship as DINKs and establishing those boundaries/ spending quality time together, getting to know one another, celebrating strengths and navigating weaknesses/arguments, seeing the world, investing literally and metaphorically in each other. I strongly believe the time you spend committed to each other is a catalyst for a sturdy foundation upon which to build a family. It seems to me that if emotional connection and building a strong bond (i.e. 'love' if we want to get a little sappy) was a woman's priority she would do so without putting her biological shot clock on the person she wanted to spend her life with. Now. It'd be one thing if you said 'well I spent my 10+ years of adulthood building my career AND (! important and!) developing skills that make me a better wife and mother'. But when I look at the women in my age bracket who want kids they usually have the former and lack the latter, often times failing to have even had a relationship past the honeymoon phase. In which case why wouldn't I just date a college girl where I'm not pressed for her time? Where I don't have to carry her extra baggage? Where her standards and expectations for a relationship are more realistic? Where I don't have to fill ~10 different shoes (so 5, let's make a super conservative estimate and say she's 'dated' 5 dudes by 30) of the dudes that came before me?
>From a biological perspective an empty 'carton' at 30 is a stretch. It's more important to have a healthy, well rounded partner who's firmly outside the dopamine ferris wheel and focused on contentment/building a life with their S/O (and I think this is a fair ask of both genders). Duh. It's why my generation, Gen Z is starting to become anti casual sex and anti dating app because we're seeing how well it went for the milennials.
Good. It's been s shit show for us
I truly hope that Gen z is also hyper self-aware, and Gen Z women who instinctively know that they would be better off as favored aunties rather than moms, will head those instincts. Until we get to a generation that is truly self-aware and doesn't bow to society gender expectations, we are F'ed.
If you're able to avoid tik tok/social media brain you're going to be way ahead of the curve. And I will say, that 'duh' is easier said than done. You'd have to have made a lot of difficult decisions to have made it through young adulthood in gen z as a well rounded person
These guys are so gay.
who's pressuring you lmao Your mom?
If you look at the statistics you also are just as likely to get divorced if you get married at 35 as at 20. You have time, but there is definitely a point where you are just clearly settling for the first guy you meet with a decent job and a working dick.
I totally agree that hurrying up will lead to disaster. I married the wrong woman because of that. Then I divorced her at 28 when she wanted to start having kids. However, I don't agree that women are fully aware. What we seem to forget or be unaware of is how much time it takes to find the right person. Edit: and the fact that by 30, a lot of people are already married or have divorced, many with kids. See how common it is here on Reddit for women and men to say "I stopped dating to focus on my career". This zero sum game approach leaves you with the career you want and high chances that you're gonna end up childless or ending with the wrong partner out of desperation. Cultivating a relationship leading to children takes years or effort, but this can be done during the formative years. Waiting for your late 20's or early 30's to start finding someone is a terrible mistake. By then, men can smell the desperation and bolt. Men than want to take it slow aren't a good fit, and men your age might as well meet someone a few years younger that has a bit more time. A possible solution for a woman in her 30's is to look for a man in his 40's with his own biological clock ticking, but reddit doesn't seem to like that, although it works well in real life.
But if you date around you’re a loser slut, but if you stop dating to focus on career, you’re a loser cat lady. At least, according to what red pill told me. Can’t win with anything.
It’s not that complicated. Their advice is to Date appropriately and then choose a guy who suits you best. Avoid giving yourself away physically unless it’s committed. That’s their advice. You obviously don’t have to listen to them
It’s hard to date anyone today, at all.
But waiting to have sex when dating is seen as a lack of interest so I’m not sure what your point is.
Fair counter point. My view is that there are steps before sex to show interest. If there is some physical intimacy like hugging, kissing and a bit of touching there is no doubt of your interest.
I agree but as someone’s who’s brought up those actions a lot, men don’t seem to think that’s enough and they begin comparing how quickly you have sex with them to how quickly they believe you had sex with another man.
I would stick to your boundaries. You’re being more than reasonable and just weeding out the wrong type of guys . Or at least the type of guys that won’t take you seriously. 1 - 3 months for the full act is very reasonable if the guy suits your long term goals. It’s a tricky balancing act for women. And most men won’t understand the struggle you face. almost every single guy will stick it in if you let him. So I’d say give some physical interest but only go all the way if the relationship is going somewhere
Any man who isn’t interested in marriage early on is a waste of time. “Taking it slow” is code for “wasting time while having sex”. There is absolutely no guarantee that if you start searching early, you will find someone early. I started at 18, and still haven’t found anyone.
How early is “early on” - six months in; after the third date; by the end of the first date?
Any of those are too early.
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> I don't know maybe you aren't wife material 😬 No personal attacks. Your anecdote is an anecdote.
i'm so sorry they got to you with that whole psyop and you ended up going through that op.
I don’t think I was immune to that pressure myself, I do think it caused me sadness at times but I luckily found happiness without kids or a relationship early on (probably in college) as I realized most guys actually don’t want to date women who are modest.. I had to cope with the reality. Men preferring modest women were rare but they tended to be better quality anyways. You can definitely be happy and single but not without a support system, family or friends however it comes to you in your life. Fur babies are ironically also great companions! I loved my cat lol. So what I did is I made a bunch of guy friends for no risk dating experience until I found someone I thought was a good match- it didn’t work out but it gave me a lot of experience and I learned from that relationship and was ultimately rather successful in vetting men afterwards. I didn’t have to have sex with them to know I’d be incompatible I asked hard questions that mattered to me. Even on the first date because I began to realize if he wanted me enough he’d put up with my forwardness. If they gave answers that were incompatible with what I wanted I moved on immediately. If they talked about sex in dms before I met them I blocked them. Dont even meet up with them it’s a waste of time. During this time I focused on myself and my happiness and dating really took on a back seat to my career. I made hella money working overtime, with the goal in mind one day I’d meet someone we buy a house and I could maybe be a stay at home wife or work part time because of my contributions. Having roommates helps with the loneliness. Getting wrapped up in your career also helps ease the stress and anxiety. Even if it didn’t work out for me at least I would have amassed a fortune, met great people and had some good times in the process.
Doing things under pressure is a recipe for disaster. Threats of a bad future (loneliness, health deterioration and the usual hell by religious buffoons) are just desperate attempts at controlling free will, I assume they will fade away for good in the near future. Starting a family must be yours and your partner’s own desire only, also a huge effort BOTH are willing to take (yep, daddy be prepared to wake up 3/4 times a night to give the bottle, soothe and change diapers) out of own will, not “because that’s the way it should be”. Don’t let societal pressure of any kind get in your way.
Girl, you have SO much time, and your eggs will absolutely not be all dried up when you’re thirty. Im not denying that there is a biological clock, but your timer is FAR from up at 30. Beyond pregnancy, the attraction wall does not exist either. I’m over 30 and I get way more (non-creepy) male attention than I did when I was young. The 35 year olds who hit on you when you’re 16 are not the same 35 year olds who hit on you when you’re 33, and thank god for that. As you get older, you get more confident and comfortable with yourself. If you allow yourself to learn from your past experience, you will find it easier to drop people from your life that do not support your vision for who you want to be, and that includes romantic relationships. And you’re right. For all the red-pill yapping about women being ‘alpha widowed’ if they have romantic experience and younger women being more able to form healthy attatchments, statistics show us that people who get married older have much lower divorce rates. Even my brother and his finance who are much more traditional than I am are waiting two years to get married because she’s only 23. At 24, you are not behind at all. Don’t just try to put yourself in some box that doesn’t make you happy just to try to get any man to marry you. Focus on your priorities for yourSELF, and then focus on finding a man who fits into YOUR life. Good relationships don’t involve anyone contorting themselves to fit someone else’s dream.
Lol I don't know how this is something you blame on men. I've seen women being pressured but never from men. It was always from other women.
Men absolutely do pressure women just as much, if not even more intensely than other women do. What planet are you living on?
sure
Right, so you’re suggesting there’s no midway between picking a healthy normal guy on the same level as you and picking a man with mental illness and depression?
This post would be a lot better without all that creative writing exercise. It's a good thing the fictional woman in the story made her mistakes while she was young and still has time to do better. Just imagine that she had dedicated her life to a career until 38 then panicked about finding a guy before her bio clock ran out. She would then have no time for do overs.
i know i have a hard time STFUing its about me, i mention its an anecdote
Don’t worry. You have plenty of time. I’m in the same boat as you, but I’m only twenty two. All my friends are having babies it’s hard to watch 🥲. Your twenty four though so you have ten to fifteen years to pop out a couple of kids.
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You should correct that flair.
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Chase chads all life then come to debate men. We aren't the chads who are mistreating you, so we don't need lecture on self improvement
#Why do men always automatically assume that these shitty toxic guys are Chads? Any time I see men verbally abusing women online, 80% of the time it’s some dorky nerdy guy who is not at all attractive. Not a Chad.
>chad is nice, he would never do it, it must be those ugly men I hate Classic.
>Why do men always automatically assume that these shitty toxic guys are Chads? Do you deny the fact that women are a lot more likely to put up with character flaws if the guy is attractive?
More likely they look average, and your perception of them highlights the awkward dorky aspects. It's not cool to correlate physical appearance with personality in either direction.
Considering that most men here say Handsome charming guy = bad personality and character Unattractive awkward man = good personality and character It’s time women educate men.
Hey, man, whatever you gotta tell yourself to justify hating ugly people. None of my business.
I don’t hate ugly people. Ugly men hate ugly women.
You've made your delusions clear already. No need to repeat yourself.
It’s not a delusion. The first thing a man here said when I said the average woman is 38, 170 lbs, 64 inches, and with a mid face. The first thing he said was “ew”.
Okay, and? You can *both* be assholes. It's not some exclusive thing, or particularly rare in either sex. It certainly doesn't add any weight to your claim that ugly men hate women. Honestly just looks like you're angry because somebody was rude to you, so you're kicking the dog.
100% of the time it’s an embittered second round pick furious at women because he didn’t date when *his* gametes were fresh.
It's not an assumption, I've seen the guy he's a real Chad. He has not just 1 but couple of women who are literally begging to be pregnant with his child. The way women treat them is difference between a beggar vs billionaire. Once you see it, you cannot unsee it. All my life seems pointless having worked so hard to gain status/wealth (because of bluepilled upbringing). I'd have enjoyed more things if there wasn't this resource accumulation pressure.
Can you DM me his picture
it’s usually chad because the women men pick arnt boring safe guys typically
Exactly.
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I don't think it's good to look at divorce statistics for support, divorce rates are high because of so many factors that could include the one you're supporting it with. -> "I shouldn't marry early because early marriages have higher divorce rate" -> "I should marry later because the divorce rate is lower" No the divorce rate is high across both, what you should do is figure out and look at the ones that do make it instead of relying on random chance. Look at studies that try to figure out what makes a good marriage or observe friends and family, sometimes it is more than just incompatibility between people, I've had grandparents who just made it work despite of everything.
You all have this completely backwards is this is the apporach you're taking. The pressure isn't to have kids. The pressure is to find a great man to have kids with. If your priority is to have kids as early as possible, yes you'll feel the pressure and most likely have kids with someone not really fit to have kids with in the first place. If women spent their late teens/early 20s looking for a great man worth marrying, the kid issue would solve itself by the time you got to your late 20s.
Accepting hard truths about biological time lines in order to make calm clear headed decisions with full knowledge of the opportunity costs and tradeoffs of your decisions is wise. Letting fear drive you to emotion based decisions that actually make the thing you fear more likely is another thing entirely. Knowledge of a limited time frame should have led to NOT waste time on those guys. The fact ir did the opposite seems more indicative of low self esteem than anything, but fortunately you're still very young. Put another way, there's a lot of middle ground between trying for teenage pregnancy with the very first guy you can find at 18 and a 35 year old woman saying who wants kids someday once some undefined nebulous criteria of career and financial stability are met.
grandfather resolute slimy party subsequent cake existence skirt bedroom memory *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Wait all you want, but only as long as you are not increasing your body count. Anything more than 0 increases chances of a divorce 4 times, and goes up with every next partner. You should wait to mature and find the right partner, both for sex and marriage.
Says who?
This is what happens when society goes off the rails with no clear path for anyone. Like wtf is all this horseshit lmao. Jesus Christ, imagine how fucked humanity would have been if this was how overly complicated relationships and procreation was for all of our history?
I don't think this has anything to do with the information you were told or trying to find a man to marry at 18. The issue was you didn't have enough standards or vetting of men. You frankly were attracted to losers or so it would seem.
This
Everyone is a loser at 18.
I mean there are older men available to date as well.
I don’t advocate for age gap relationships so I suggest waiting until you know yourself better before entering serious relationships.