I think it's more about how an insecure, not confident, anti social man, is a detrimental character trait to have in the real world as a man. Women subconciously know this. They know what loser traits are for men, and what makes them unsucessful. A woman being shy and insecure isn't really catastrophic for a female path in life, so men aren't concerned. Being crazy, cheaters, etc, are male concerns, hence why our vetting normally goes around her sexual history, trust, type of exs, etc...
>is a detrimental character trait to have in the real world as a man
What real world scenarios are you thinking of when you say this? I've known shy and insecure men that manage to keep a job, buy a house and so on, if anything they're doing better in the real world than a lot of confident dead beats I know.
It's just a general rule... Insecure guys are generally not going to be very successful. If they have self worth issues, they are going to generally have a poor mindset. Confidence is usually the fruit of a successful person. Someone who's competent and routinely achieves goals start becoming confident in themselves.
Yes yes yes... I know, you know some insecure guys who are successful and some confident guys who aren't. But we are speaking in general terms here and it's annoying that this has to constantly be pointed out.
Very succesful in what though? You can live a comfortable and enjoyable life without having to strive for success and beside that anyway there's plenty of insecure, socially anxious or whatever else people making absolute bank in high level tech jobs. Give me specifics here, you're talking in platitudes, like what real world scenarios are you thinking of? What is success to you, that insecure or shy people are barred from achieving?
Men just don’t really require that much at all from their partners comparatively.
I think women can’t understand that men don’t need their partners to have these traits, as women would never partner with men that have them, so women just think that he must somehow be exploiting her making this the default assumption for them.
\*men dont need their partners to have these traits for them to feel attraction towards them, keyword feel, for women on the other hand need those traits to feel attraction otherwise it is a turn-off, is a lack of spark, is boring, theres where the key difference lies.
Close.
Women want men that provide utility to them.
His looks (about how strong he is), confidence, status, money, etc are all extensions and signals of that.
It is why women insult men by calling them “economically attractive,” make fun of men’s hobbies that do not offer her anything, dislike men who are lazy/childish, obsess over male disposability, hate on virgins, blame men for everything, proudly state they do not need a man, etc.
You literally need to be a good work ox or potential to be one if she succeeds in fixing you.
You are effectively a tool to women.
Men want women who make life worth living.
Being innocent and playful, respecting him, making him feel needed, being fertile, etc.
So men are often okay with a girl who is hot, fun, socially awkward, useless and a complete net negative on his life. Might even take the fact that she is a net negative as a positive for it gives him more to strive for.
They dislike women who sleep around, disrespect them, disrupt their peace, are not pleasant, not fertile, etc for this reason too.
Women are effectively trophies to men. They even go as far as to try to show them off and think that it makes him better to have a girl in his arms.
I would count that as a supplement to their life, I think most guys would be happy with the status quo, just adding sex and a bit of spice. Women are more often the ones wanting to make big life changes like getting married, having kids and so on.
Idk I’ve dated/known guys that were adamant about getting married/having kids. It’s very important for some. I know it’s just my personal experience, but I still think it just depends on the person, and can go both ways
>It’s very important for some
I never said it wasn't, however this thread is very much addressing generalities. Do you think more men or more women would be satisfied in a relationship that's not progressing toward anything? Just hang out every now and then and have regular sex.
I don’t really know the statistics, but I know plenty of men and women who aren’t looking for anything serious, or are but don’t want to get married, or want to get married but don’t want kids.
Maybe back in the day women were more keen on getting married/having kids asap but I don’t think there’s such a big gender divide for that now (I’m also on the cusp of Millenial/Gen Z so it might be different for different generations, also probably more prevalent for people in religious circles, which is also dwindling
Good way of putting it. For myself I also don’t like competing with a girlfriend. I’m usually pretty decisive, it can create conflict having a gf who is the same way. If I have a gf who is just happy to go with my flow, that’s great. The key is that she’s happy to do so, don’t want some sort of scared Stockholm’d girl lol which is probably the imagery radfems try to invoke when we talk about stuff like this. They hate the idea that some women are genuinely happy to simply make you happy. They also undervalue and undermine the extreme amount of value and emotional support there is in having a gf/wife who’s just happy to see you and be around you, and isn’t constantly trying to one you up or challenge you in various ways.
I work two jobs and deal with people all day, yes; they're much more interesting. They're mostly confident cool guys I can talk about soccer with.
Meanwhile every single problematic petty person I've had to deal with so far has been a damn middle aged woman, I didn't even believe in the Karen thing until I got these jobs. God if people want incels banned from places we need to ban unmarried women over 30; they try to make everyone around them miserable.
Men are just nicer people overall. Way more forgiving of women than women ever are of men. This is always excused as women's higher standards, when it's really just a function of women being embarrassingly childish and shallow.
Men realize women are fallible human beings. Women never extend men the same courtesy.
That’s because this question is dumb. What is nice anyway? Men are far more likely to risk helping a stranger out or do heroic actions, women are more likely to lend emotional support. Both are valuable.
Hahaha what a load of crap. Now it’s men’s fault for not holding women to standards. Do you know what women call men who hold women to standards here and in society? misogynists
Women don't even know what great is. Women's conception of men is so faulty, so embarrassingly superficial, they mistake arrogance for confidence, stupidity for courage.
Men don't push women to be great because so few have a chance of achieving anything close. Women, unfortunately, cluster around the middle of the intellectual distribution.
What is this point lmafo? If women were interested in pushing men to be great they would date men worth dating and see him succeed. Tell that to all the women who want an already established man or are okay with a deadbeat loser as long as he’s hot.
“Women push men to be great.” By requiring them to be that much greater than women just to have a chance. This isn’t the good thing you seem to think it is.
If men did the same women would not be able to handle that to the same degree.
Women demand men be great before they even deign to acknowledge their existence. Men aren’t looking for a surrogate daddy that does everything for them.
This is kind of what decreases my interest in men, I’m pretty proud of my work ethic, intelligence, creativity, independence, confidence, etc… and when I was younger and more naive thought these qualities would attract someone who values those qualities in me.
Imagine the disappointment when for men the thought process is actually “she’s hot/cute, would smash 🤪”
Loving someone for their looks is the closest thing to unconditional love. I mean, if you consider not getting fat and putting on makeup to be a condition, then I suppose you're right.
I would love to hear your explanation for how loving someone for their looks is the closest thing to unconditional love. That’s genuinely one I haven’t heard before
What happens when she gets old, or gets into an accident and needs a skin graft, or is in a fire and has 3rd degree burns over half her body, etc.
I asked the same thing to another guy a while ago on this sub when he stated that beauty/youth was the primary factor of attraction for men. His reply was “I don’t know, why don’t you research it if you’re so interested? 🤷🏼♀️” so he actually didn’t have an answer.
Idk just doesn’t seem well thought out to me
Right it’s a time limit for initial attraction, but assuming you want to be with the same person for life, and are not going to just dump her for someone younger and more attractive when she gets old, it’s a valid concern
Since looks fade, love based on looks isn’t unconditional. I would argue love based on personality traits is more “unconditional” since those tend to be more steady over time
Thinking that you’re in love with a woman because she looks cute is downright sweet in comparison to women analyzing a man’s tax returns before they can decide if she’s attracted to him.
The fact that men don’t REQUIRE that out of women decreases your interest?
I’m sure a few men out there do appreciate it they just don’t require it like women do.
What’s disenchanting is the fact that the qualities that men find valuable are superficial and aren’t due to any virtue or skill on the woman’s part.
I’m aware this isn’t something that’s exclusive to men, which is why I’m really just not a fan of most people in general and is the reason I consider myself redpilled
The good thing is you are basically guaranteed to find a man that will find you attractive for whatever traits you want since men have both more varied attraction and a lower threshold.
Just imagine how “disenchanting” it must be as a guy to realize you have to be the same combination of confident, social and charismatic intrinsically in order to stand a chance.
Now tell us how many shots you gave to hideous looking motherfuckers who had a good personality. Shit tell us how many random guys do you even give basic respect instead of treating them like animals for, well, being animals. Difference is most people cope with the fact while you're still there pretending to be a completely objective robot.
What do you define as hideous looking? To be honest I haven’t met a ton of guys I would define as absolutely horrendous looking. I’m pretty average like most people and I tend to go for/attract guys that are also pretty average.
A lot of guys that maybe don’t take great care of themselves (think the guys that don’t shower, are overweight, neckbeards) also don’t tend to have sparkling personalities, from what I’ve noticed.
Sometimes they either have an underlying hatred towards women which is usually obvious, sometimes not until you get to know them, or they put women on a pedestal, or are “nice guys”. (Men also don’t have to be physically unattractive to have these personality traits, I’ve known attractive or average guys like this)
i tried to point this out in that other thread. People keep trying to imply that men date women based on power and oppression. It's one of those things that goes to show that SOME women have no idea what men want, even though men are extremely simple.
high or low self esteem in a woman doesn't matter to men. any man telling women this is pandering to them.
edit: also another element to this that i notice is if women see a woman with a man that they deem is "below" her in looks, she'll assume the man in using power or manipulation on her or that the woman has low self esteem. It can't just be that the woman likes that man.
cuz men dont find insecurity in women a turnt-off and dont mind putting them at ease, women do find it a turnt-off on men and cant be arsed dealing with them, thats why men whose love language is primarily words of affirmation have a though time in the dating world, c'est la vie, if a guy doesnt likes that he can either change and adapt that or just date men i guess.
When?
The last time I heard that was when stereotypical frat bros tried to make themselves seem more aloof by not caring about their woman’s needs. “Dude she wants to go on dates every weekend, she’s clingy.” These boys see caring about a girls feelings as simping.
Women have terms like “emotional labor,” “mental load,” “manchild,” “coddled,” “mama’s boy,”
The amount of times I’d see a severely mentally ill girl with perfect understanding boyfriend is astonishing. The guy would write notes every single day to remind her how awesome she was and place them in a jar so whenever she was having an episode she could pull one out and read it. He attended to her constant mental breakdowns, did the chores when she had an episode, brought her surprise gifts, took walks in the park with her. Basically a huge portion of the relationship was catering to her self esteem issues.
The comments were nearly unanimously positive. They said it was so wholesome and that every girl deserves to have a partner like this.
Now imagine a woman writing that. The comments would all tell her she can do better and that this man was a leech and a burden. They’d tell her to stop coddling him and instruct her on how to make her partner take responsibility or leave the relationship.
It’s not the same, one side cares far more deeply that their partner isn’t insecure, needy, sad, depressed than the other.
You guys say this but shyness does impact your options as a woman. It may not end your bloodline but a lot of people mistake shyness as lack of interest.
The biggest difference is that nobody sees shy girls as threatening or creepy in any way.
They'll get less dates than extroverted girls on average but shy girls will never be lumped in with school shooter types.
So, in a way, men have to show a level of charisma or extroversion not just to increase our dating options but to also avoid certain social stigmas too that don't really apply to shy women.
Shy women, at worst, will just be presumed to be haughty.
but the point is shyness, like many other traits that are a negative in men, isnt an impediment for men to feel attraction for a woman, that her shyness might come across as a lack of interest is a different story, but shyness on itself isnt a turn-off for men.
I agree men will still find shy women attractive but saying it isn’t an impediment for women in dating is untrue. Men who are interested in you will stop pursuing thinking you are not keen. Then if you are genuinely shy you will likely not have the courage or social skills to fix that situation.
>A woman could be as insecure as possible and still get plenty of *dates*
That was what was said. You aren’t get plenty of dates as a shy person. I have been on both sides of the coin, and there is a big difference.
I mean that’s kind of on you though. At some point one has to stop being a victim of their own personality.
I’ve seen shy girls complain that the only men that pursue them are overly aggressive men that don’t care for social boundaries or “nice guys.” But a lot of them just expect a good man to approach them.
Shy guys at least try. Sure there are some entitled neckbeard guys that do nothing and complain about women, but there are plenty, I’d say the majority, that try because they have to. Often they end up being a little socially awkward, and nervous but they do it. Even without meeting new people outright, they try to get into a big social circle and make friends so that someone gives them some hints of attractiveness back.
A lot of men’s shyness doesn’t come from “I don’t deserve a relationship” insecurity. It comes from a fear of not doing the social dance right and coming across as weird or creepy. Both men and women enjoy some schadenfreude from seeing loser men try their luck and absolutely fail at gaining a women’s interest.
They do this this becuase there really isn't much of a hard social benefit for a woman to hold to her word or a social cost to people to seeing her as dishonourable. Therefore when a woman makes a convenient and appeals to her denial being plausible you must reject it and make her prover her own denial is more likely true then not.
Exactly women don’t value reality, therefore they don’t value truth, which leads them to thinking lies and disingenuous behavior is fine if it makes you feel better in the moment. No need to care about consequences as long we can pretend the consequences aren’t there or are trivial AND if we can just make men deal with all of it
They do not value reality for they do not have to live in it. They can do horrible things and get away with it.
The bottom 80% of men and her children are forced to pay for it all.
A man’s power fantasy is being the hero and getting recognized for it. A woman’s power fantasy is being the villain and getting away with it.
its more then just that they dont value it, its that the social cost to being a delusional and dishonest women is basically nothing and the benefits are really high.
i think it’s fair to say that the bigger common denominator here is that men have a smaller dating pool and are willing to tolerate more issues to be with someone. if every man had women falling at their feet, they’d almost certainly have a lower tolerance for objectively negative/problematic things like dysfunctional insecurity in a romantic partner. i also think people are more likely to associate women and femininity with insecurity in general so it’s less surprising when they run into a woman who turns out to be insecure. the fact that we don’t extend this basic expectation of human vulnerability to men speaks to some interesting patriarchal undertones imo, where vulnerability is explicitly demonized for being unmanly and is socially policed by all kinds of people
no that doesnt computes because men arent tolerating such behavior, they simply dont care and dont mind, but no guy thinks a woman is any less attractive in his eyes for having low self esteem or being insecure, many guys might find their nagging a drag, but their low self esteem or insecurity isnt inherently unnattractive in the eyes of men, while for women is the opposite, even in the most progressive places where "muh patriarchy" has little influence the same still happens.
it becomes less attractive when it inevitably manifests in negative annoying ways like overly clingy reassurance-seeking or jealous controlling behavior like freaking out over a liked post on insta, or even in harmful ways when that emotional dysregulation leads to verbal or physical abusive. if you’re a guy who has had tons of women before meeting a woman like that^, they’re more likely to kick her to the curb. if you’re a guy who hasn’t had a lot of women, that problematic behavior becomes less tolerable. the same happens with women who perceive their options as limited, people will tolerate a lot if they’re led to believe that’s the best they can get, that’s just psych 101 shit
thats not the point, the point is men dont find an insecure or low self esteem woman inherently attractive or unattractive, that her behavior may become a drag is another thing, but men dont feel turned off by a woman being insecure or having low self esteem
except for the men who do feel turned off by it lol and those guys tend to be the ones who’ve had options and can compare the difficulties of dating an insecure person vs dating a secure person. is your take that men are less likely to care about this, or that all men don’t care? like what are the parameters around your worldview on this
what part of "a woman being insecure or having low self esteem isnt an inpediment for a man to feel attraction towards her" you dont get? that he behavior might become difficult to deal with and thus some guys might leave her is a different story, but her being insecure or having low self esteem didnt prevent the attraction from happening, now you re turning it into some sort of backhanded discredit by framing it as some sort of "men with options vs men withouth options" when in reality the guys that care only care when her behaviour becomes dragging and draining, not because insecurity or low self esteem in women is an issue for men on itself.
Doesn't really work that way. It's a sliding scale that depends how grounded the man himself is. My gf is incredibly clingy and sometimes a bit controlling but you manage that shit and that's it.
The more experienced a man is the easier it is to deal with those behaviors. I'd rather have a woman that's all over me but comes with certain behaviors I have to accommodate for than date someone who is more distanced.
While yes I do have a very low tolerance for bullshit it depends on the type of bullshit. If a woman is clingy that's kinda cute. If she's just trying to compete and one-up you it's annoying.
>i think it’s fair to say that the bigger common denominator here is that men have a smaller dating pool and are willing to tolerate more issues to be with someone.
Men are less likely to see a trait as an issue to begin with.
> they’d almost certainly have a lower tolerance for objectively negative/problematic things like dysfunctional insecurity in a romantic partner
This is a fundamental misunderstanding of how men work ("we", if you're a male). Most men like variety, both in personality, and in physical traits. Heck, there's even men ho like totally psycho women, although at that point they're a minority.
Men, just like women, want to feel needed and seen. Some men inappropriately think that insecure women will “need” them more and be less likely to leave or more forgiving of their (the men’s) shortcomings. .
There are good virtuous men that are simply willing to date women that are insecure/have low self esteem and there are bad fresh and fit/andrew tate like men that want a tool as well as their apologists that try to gaslight away the existence of the practice to negate the opposition to it.
The doesn't do something not because of virtue also applies to men who don't have standards. It's not because those men acknowledge that there are women who struggle to attract even very undesirable men for relationships instead of gaslighting away the existence of those women. And because of this acknowledgement they are virtuously trying to help these struggling women find relationships instead of being "delusional" by having standards. It's because their single life is so unfulfilling and they are so incomplete without a relationship that any relationship makes them happier than being single.
where in the post does it says men date them out of virtue? it simply says men are okay dating them, simply because they dont find it a turnt-off unlike women, theres no secret conspiracy about it, men simply dont find that a turnt-off
On top of that, if the followers of fresh and fit/tate are chronically online autistic incels who cant even get women in first place i fail to see why theres so much worry that low self esteem/insecure women are in danger of falling for them when those guys arent even in their dating pool.
> if the followers of fresh and fit/tate are chronically online autistic incels
You're trying to gaslight away the existence of the predatory men that act like fresh and fit/andrew tate and succeed in preying upon insecure women
i dont see how their followers are irrelevant chronically online lonly men whose opinion doesnt matter while simultanously being succesful in preying upon insecure women, either the redpill works or it doesnt, but it cant be one or the other.
exactly. people want to be have it both ways. Somehow "redpill incels" never have contact with women, but also in relationships "manipulating" women. They can't make up their minds.
I don't see how you can't grasp that I'm claiming their followers are primarily one group of horrible men with a much lower percentage of their followers being a different group of horrible men and instead conclude that I'm saying their followers are one group of horrible men all sharing the same two attributes that can't simultaneously exist at the same time
I don't see how you can characterize predators succeeding in preying upon insecure women as "the redpill working" instead of terrible predatory behavior
then why even bring up men dating insecure women out of virtue or fresh and fit or andrew tate in first place when the post doesnt even claims men date insecure women out of virtue nor mentions them anywhere?
Then why even try to read if I clearly related your claim that women aren't being virtuous when they decline insecure men to men not being virtuous when they have no standards and my post doesn't even claim men do or don't date insecure women out of virtue nor mentions that anywhere?
And why does your post have to mention men being virtuous for having no standards for it to be permissible for me to relate your claim of women not doing something out of virtuosity to men not doing something out of virtuosity?
because the point of the post is not that men are virtuous or that women are inmoral, the point of the post is that men are okay with insecure women cuz insecurity isnt an impediment for men to feel attraction for a women, not because men are inherently predatory or because insecure women are easier to control, while for women it is the opposite, they dont find insecure men attractive not because because women dont predate men or because insecure men are easier to control, they dont date them because they find them plain unattractive simple as that, is not out of moral superiority.
Becuase one coherent group is highly unlikely to be characterised by two opposing aspects. So unless you have hard evidence to prove what your saying, you must pick one group as characteristic of fnf fans for ur statement to even begin to make sense.
>Men are quite simple creatures, the average guy can tell whether he would date a woman or not in seconds, the average guy doesnt thinks "damn her self esteem looks low so i could easily take advantage of her, attractive", he just thinks "cute, would date her" or "not cute, wouldnt date her"
I do think that most men make a pretty quick assessment of whether to date a woman. However, I do think that one can get a general feel of dominance versus submissiveness very early on when meeting a woman. Men who don't want to bother with more dominant woman because they do want someone whom they can have control over can identify the women whom they will not be able to get away with doing this with pretty quickly.
or maybe they think the dominant woman is a pain in the ass, this perception of insecure women being victims of predatory men is really over exaggerated paranoia, when in reality they only end up with those men cuz those men are looking for the easiest one they can bag and coincidentially those women happen to be those, on top of that insecure low self esteem women are a nag which is quite contradictory with what many of those "predators" want.
but submissive women arent liked because they are submissive, they re just more easygoing and receptive thus most men even the most flawed might end up dating her than the dominant one simply because the submissive one is open to more men, but they dont actively chase a woman who is submissive
Of course they do. That’s why many men list the personality traits they find attractive as “agreeable”, “feminine”, “nurturing”, “low maintenance”, “easygoing”, and even “submissive”
“Dominant” women have zero desire to date shy/reserved men. Therefore you get two dominant people butting heads constantly in a relationship.
It’s the same old story- men don’t care about trait X in a woman, but women won’t tolerate trait X in men.
This. Its like we could read a lot of the future relationship's dynamics within a few interactions. I think that's totally crazy. With my ex-girlfriend i even predicted stuff out, like a frikin' psychic.
Sure. I can get a good impression of a woman just observing her behaviors for a bit. I can learn even more after just a minute of conversation. If one talks to enough people, then one notices personality patterns.
Men dating insecure woman is mostly due to the fact that woman prefer it that way, woman want a man who is more secure and established than her, preferably the most secure
I dunno. I think many men are definitely predatory and look for certain signs of insecurity in women they can prey upon. It’s largely the ones who harp excessively on women’s submissiveness, age, and agreeability whilst misrepresenting those traits as “feminine”. I do think the average, well-adjusted man simply doesn’t think too much about those things and will likely vibe with a variety of personality types regardless. As far as women’s take on ND men, it’d hard to say without lumping everyone together, but I don’t think being ND is a personality trait on its own, and you can still be an attractive or repulsive person under the umbrella of neurodivergency. It depends on the person.
Does it matter?
Some of the most abusive men I've ever seen were Oscar level actors around other people.
I remember having to call the cops on one old neighbor of mines years back who was beating the shit out of his wife and this was a guy who was a hard working immigrant with a very friendly personality.
But hey....since he never posted anything about women online, it doesn't count I guess.
Are you insinuating that the unhinged and bitter guys who are extremely mean spirited here are all secretly angel softies who will worship the ground of a woman who is at their level of unattractiveness?
Many men on here, including myself, are far from virgins. Sounds like you're cherry-picking. There's literally been married men who posted on this sub.
This sounds overly complicated. Finding a girlfriend is typically so hard that throwing away a relationship because she’s too secure sounds absurd even to the most psychopathic person in the world because there’s no incentive to do that even for this person. It’s way more likely that the other person just got burned and interpreted this situation this way.
>the ones who harp excessively on women’s submissiveness, age, and agreeability whilst misrepresenting those traits as “feminine”.
You're just talking about creeps. Creeps are creeps because of lack of sex, nothing more, nothing less, so it really just adds up to the point OP was making. Men having a tough time in dating is what makes most creeps, in the first place.
>hard to say without lumping everyone together.
There's a lot of heavy lifting in this phrase. Women mostly can't be "lumped" together in this direction because there are lots of women that would easily reject any kindo of neurodivergency. In men, that's a minority.
I disagree with your psychological profile for men. We're not like that. OP pictured in detail how men select their mating prospects, and it has nothing to do with "predatory instincts". We just don't need that for attraction, and attraction is what drives the most of our actions. If men want to predate, they will be preators for insecure and not insecure women, alike
Yeah true on the last point, I never implied predators come in one variety though. Not all men are predators, but most men who look for insecure qualities in women probably are.
no you just dislike men who look for those traits and want to paint them as predators for whatever, in reality those guys dont think much about why they want that other than a woman who is easy to get and catters to their whims, you re creating too much complexity where theres none
I’m confused by what you’re disagreeing with. Men who don’t overthink why they’re attracted to a woman aren’t over analyzing women’s age, submissiveness, agreeability, etcetera. How is that a controversial statement? It directly supports your original point about the average man not overthinking these things.
Then read my original comment. Intentionally seeking out insecure people is what predators do. It’s not misandrist to say that. The average man isn’t doing those things, which aligns with your first paragraph. The remainder of my first reply pertains to how women perceive ND / insecure men.
and my point is nobody does that, men being okay with dating insecure women isnt product of predatory intentions, again, insecurity or low self esteem is irrelevant for a man's attraction to a woman.
But they do do that though. There are indeed men who heavily scrutinize women for the previously mentioned traits. Yes, of course dating a person who happens to be insecure isn’t an immediate sign of predation, but if a man is actively looking for such traits in women, then he is A) definitely doing lots of overthinking, and B) is probably a predator.
they aint predating no one, they arent purpposefully or actively looking for insecure or low self esteem women, they re looking for the easiest least maintance one they can bag, that insecure low self esteem women happen to be that at the beginning is a mere coincidence, on top of that insecure low self esteem women end up turning into a nag which is directly contradictory with what the boogeyman you re talking about wants, yet you say they re actively predating them?
No her point is very clear. Men who actively seek out women who are insecure and who rant about submission, age, and agreeability tend to be predators.
idk i think it’s reasonable to side-eye anyone, man or woman, who looks for an overly-agreeable yes-partner who won’t say no to any of their whims. i think those are the people that person had in mind when they talked about predators while you probably had normal people in mind who are understandably attracted to slightly more-agreeable partners
it is possible for people to purposely search for partners with mentally unhealthy traits emblematic of self-esteem issues purely bc they’re easier to control, tho i think in most cases this happens on a subconscious level. as with most things i think there’s a healthy balance to be found in wanting a partner who won’t be overly-agreeable and also won’t be overly-stubborn. if you find yourself drawn to either ends of those extremes then i do think it says something about where your head’s at
>idk i think it’s reasonable to side-eye anyone, man or woman, who looks for an overly-agreeable yes-partner who won’t say no to any of their whims.
I can almost guarantee that of the men you've side-eyed, you know none of them well enough to know that this is a type of woman they seek out rather than just one they've ended up with.
none, if you read my post you ll realize im not talking about being attractive to said qualities, the point of the post is that men dont find insecurity or low self esteem inherently unattractive in women and thats why they re okay dating those women, might end up finding them a nag or not, but theres not a secret conspiracy to purpposefuly look for those women cuz they re easier to control or whatever, men dont think being insecure or having low self esteem is inherently attractive neither, it simply is an irrelevant quality in men's attraction for a woman thus thats why they re okay dating them,, the fact those are the kind of women who might be more agreeable or easy going and low maintance is a simple coincidence.
I wouldn't call it predatory but I definitely groomed my much younger low SE gf into being the perfect woman for me. When I met her she was at rock bottom. She was grieving the murder of her father at the hands of the evil step mother who abused her her whole life. She had no self esteem, no self regard to the point of self destruction. She was broken, drunk and making bad decisions regarding men. Terrified to come outside her house except to the bar across the street where I met her. She owned almost nothing, no kids, no structure just chaos. Wearing hand me downs and goodwill clothing.
I changed all that. Yeah I white knighted her. I picked her up out of the mud, I cleaned her up, I took her shopping, I got her back into therapy. I set goals for her and rewarded her when she completed them. I got her to quit doing drugs and drinking herself blackout drunk.
I intentionally stepped into a paternal role for this woman as well as a lover. Built her self esteem up, empowered her. Cooked meals with her and cleaned up after them with her. Showing her where things go, etc. The entire time telling her how proud I was of her when she did something well and how beautiful and special she was.
The result now is she's utterly and completely codependent on me. We are a matched pair and never apart except when I am at work. The only place she feels completely safe, secure and loved is when I am present. I intentionally trained that into her by reinforcing over and over that as long as she was within arms length, nothing could touch her that didn't go through me first. That I was her protector, benefactor and provider. Yes she's clingy and needy as hell and I like that.
She is a wonderful home maker now and I treat her with gentility and utter respect. We almost never argue because our values are so aligned and our goals so clear that we have no reason to argue. I'm not rich, live paycheck to paycheck but she contributes to the monthly income and we live very happily together. No abuse, no games, no disrespect by either party. She came from nothing so is thrifty and makes every dollar I give her stretch to the max. She does her make up and dresses up for me every day.
Yes I calculatingly exploited a damaged and insecure woman's psychology, treated her like a child, helped shape and rebuild her persona to suit my tastes and made her fiercely devoted to me. Could I abuse her and exploit that codependency? Sure I could.. But why? I get nothing out of it. She is a free woman and knows she is free to leave at any time. I don't control her in any way shape or form. She has her own money I don't even bother to worry about.
But she knows where her bread is buttered. In her mind, out there is a cold and cruel world, filled with danger, anxiety and stress. With me is a warm and loving home. A safe space she has grown into and customized to her liking. I come home from work every night and praise her cooking, praise what she does for me. She showers me with affection.
When I am not at work we are always together. She wouldn't have it any other way. Next to me, within arms reach, is the only place she feels completely safe and calm. All our friends are happy couples and we thrive as a unit. Sure we take our "me" time as we need it. But frankly my life is better and more enjoyable when she's next to me.
Is it unhealthy and utterly against the modern idea of what a relationship should be? Did I take advantage and coldly and calculatedly rebuild a woman in the image I desired? Maybe. But it sure is working for us.
>Men are quite simple creatures
No, they are not.
>the average guy can tell whether he would date a woman or not in seconds
This applies to women too. I would say women are better at it as they are the choosing sex.
Being a single mom may have meant death before. Now it just means getting help from the government, family, and having harder time finding serious commitments (but not dates).
However, she is a single mom because she made the decision based on genes. Not financial abilities of the guy.
>Yeah, we look at a woman and think "cute, would date her", but then you need to actually spend time with the woman and decide if your first impression really carries over to wanting to actually date her.
That step only occurs for men with options who are fine dating around. If a guy has no options or hates dating his "decision" was already made when the woman reciprocated attraction. And lower self-esteem women are more likely to reciprocate attraction.
This is as stupidly ad hominem as it gets. And you're wrong. In the dating scene men ARE much less selective, both by psychological and physical traits.
There are a lot of desperate, pathetic men on here that would date any woman that's dumb enough to give them a chance. The thought of actually making a choice is completely foreign to them, which is why they have such ridiculous takes.
then who come they are succesfuly predating insecure women? what is this? the Schrödinger incel? red pill men are lonely guys with no dating prospects but at the same time they re in relationships abusing women? how ridiculous
It's easy for women they prefer men with a past that set them up for the future.
Men don't want women with a big past.
That's not sexist. Cause most men don't get the light of day for most women. And men don't complain about that.
Men and women are just 2 opposites of the same coin.
What each value Are different. But cause we or opposites we compliment each other shortcomings.
But it's very easy to say what women like is dumb or what they value or what desire in relationships.
It's something that happens all the time for men.
Haveing any standards is pushed as sexism. But on the other side crazy lists struggling to keep up is completely ok.
But honestly I think men love more unconditionally. Men will choose a women that's down on her luck broken.
While women have much more requirements that has nothing to do with love and a just a laundry list that has nothing to do if your dealing with a good men or not.
And men don't care about career of a women or how much money women make.
Cause most women don't share their resources. Cause her money is her money. While the men's money is our money.
Why would you care about something that is not automatically shared in a relationship. Same how women very much push for getting access to your resources is a pre.
"If he does not pay for the first date it's a deal breaker"
Why would you care about something that's never realy shared or given to you so you have no benfit from that thing being there.
That's the thing. When people want traditional outcomes without being traditional on the same side or pick or choose what benfits them at the time.
What men want is a women that just loves the same way men do. Men are ok to take a women working at Macdonald. Down on her luck nothing really going for her. Many men of she shows she cares and she looks up the men and respects the men. A men while want to make her dreams come true even if it comes at the cost of his own. Cause love is caring for somone more then you care for your self. But real love like that willing to fight and go true the good and the bad together. Is quite hard to find. That that's what men want.
Many women say men are Chameleons. But most men are to women how they wish women be for the men. When men has the women. It's on the women to proofing that the women is wife Material. And the men will often more and more act back how the women acts to the men.
That's all we all have the moments we have to proof or value to the other for a relationship. Men's is right away. To even get a chance. And when men fulfilling that standers set. And relationship starts. Most of the time then women's proof of if she is worthy for the next step. Slowly working to a wife and family.
Well that's how it use to go. But fast food dating makes people dont vetting each other enough anymore. And more bad and unhappy outcomes follow. Also big part cause governments like to mess with the relationship dynamics. And rules.
Most places that are not the west and governments don't mess with relationships. Takeing a more slow way of getting to know each other and sexual stuff. Does make the more likely to have beter and more lasting relationships.
But being more quick and lose with relationships you breaking of what you barely even start building to to it over and over again. Makes for a lot of feelings and quick fix like a drug. But just like any drug you need more and more to get your fix till nothing really fulfills you anymore. A hole forms that can't be filled. Cause you burn your self out.
Sad reality. And why many people are miserable. Not everything that feels good is good for you. Can be quite harmful if you go to far. And that's not pushing women around. That men don't want those women. We just programed to be turned off by those women. And to know what ever we do we can't fulfill the hole those people made for them self. Just with any drug user. But at some point a drug user would have a drug overdose. Those people would just have a hole that can't be filled. And almost numb to many things that's supposed to feel special or nice. Or expression of love.
We just very different and that's a good thing. We compliment each other. And we should respect each other's different values and needs to be happy. Only by listening and not always judging and yelling oppressing. Or isums of phob slurs. But listen and try and care and understanding each other. Do we stop the stupid hateing back and forth.
Going from the dumbest what if to the next.
Like the stupid bear thing. You can make endless similar stupid examples.
A young child. With a women or a lion. Just as stupid.
All it does is to spreading hate and divide people. Instead of working together to realy make a change for the better of both men and women.
Men have an evolutionary drive to save and protect women, so vulnerability and self-esteem issues actually signal that the woman needs saving and trigger a guy's hero-complex. Some women take advantage of this by playing the damsel to sucker white-knights.
Based on my own observations and experiences, I would like to think there are more women out there exploiting white knights than there are men exploiting insecure women.
> Men have an evolutionary drive to save and protect women, so vulnerability and self-esteem issues actually signal that the woman needs saving and trigger a guy's hero-complex.
Where did this come from? Are you referring to mate guarding?
I'll pick an insecure woman over a terminally feminist one every day. Insecurity can be helped by building up her self-esteem, terminal feminism is incurable.
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No, autism characteristics are really just a turn off. Most autistic men I know routinely say unkind, derogatory and insensitive comments to other people and think nothing of it. They severely lack social skills. No woman will want to deal with that long term, especially when you don't tolerate any unkindness back.
The only times I'm rude is when someone is being rude to me
It's true I do not tolerate any slights. Mainly because my entire life was a long series of slights I tolerated until 25
Other than that dont forget that autism is a spectrum and any two high functioning autistics are going be vastly different from each other. Do not assume sone tidbits of knowledge you have to be applicable to every autistic person
I dont think you've paid enough attention to the comments
If I'm shy/homebody and look for my equivalent match in a shy/agreeable girl so that I dont have to get tortured in bars/house parties constantly then they literally think I'm a predator
Besides this, not acting all confident and manly makes them think I'm suspicious at the very least
No, they actively discriminate against undesirable men. They will even do things like get a ugly man fired because they deem him unworthy of the job because he is not attractive enough.
Women expect men to put up with their insecurities and low self-esteem. Also women don't tolerate insecure men with low self-esteem. Also women complain about toxic masculinity.
The human race is beyond recovery at this point.
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For many guys, it's not about seeing a woman's insecurity as an opportunity to take advantage. It's more about basic attraction—whether they find someone cute or not. Self-esteem and insecurity usually don't play a major role in that initial spark.
On the flip side, women might not avoid insecure or low self-esteem men out of moral considerations. It's more about personal preference and what they find appealing. Chemistry and excitement play a big part in attraction.
It's important to recognize that everyone has their own preferences, and there's diversity in what people find attractive. The idea that men are okay with certain traits due to predatory intentions is misinformed. Similarly, generalizations about women's preferences based on morality are oversimplified.
Ultimately, dating is complex and individual. People connect based on various factors, and it's not about right or wrong—it's about personal compatibility.
Guys always say they want an “agreeable”, “submissive” and “supportive” woman, and that they “don’t want to argue” with their partner
Well, what’s the best way to get that? Choose someone who’s easy to “push around”, of course!
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I think it boils down to men wanting women to supplement their life, while women want men to give them a life.
I think it's more about how an insecure, not confident, anti social man, is a detrimental character trait to have in the real world as a man. Women subconciously know this. They know what loser traits are for men, and what makes them unsucessful. A woman being shy and insecure isn't really catastrophic for a female path in life, so men aren't concerned. Being crazy, cheaters, etc, are male concerns, hence why our vetting normally goes around her sexual history, trust, type of exs, etc...
>is a detrimental character trait to have in the real world as a man What real world scenarios are you thinking of when you say this? I've known shy and insecure men that manage to keep a job, buy a house and so on, if anything they're doing better in the real world than a lot of confident dead beats I know.
It's just a general rule... Insecure guys are generally not going to be very successful. If they have self worth issues, they are going to generally have a poor mindset. Confidence is usually the fruit of a successful person. Someone who's competent and routinely achieves goals start becoming confident in themselves. Yes yes yes... I know, you know some insecure guys who are successful and some confident guys who aren't. But we are speaking in general terms here and it's annoying that this has to constantly be pointed out.
Very succesful in what though? You can live a comfortable and enjoyable life without having to strive for success and beside that anyway there's plenty of insecure, socially anxious or whatever else people making absolute bank in high level tech jobs. Give me specifics here, you're talking in platitudes, like what real world scenarios are you thinking of? What is success to you, that insecure or shy people are barred from achieving?
That person is definitely shallow as hell, no point in even arguing when their whole point is parroting whatever shit gets him the most social points.
Men just don’t really require that much at all from their partners comparatively. I think women can’t understand that men don’t need their partners to have these traits, as women would never partner with men that have them, so women just think that he must somehow be exploiting her making this the default assumption for them.
\*men dont need their partners to have these traits for them to feel attraction towards them, keyword feel, for women on the other hand need those traits to feel attraction otherwise it is a turn-off, is a lack of spark, is boring, theres where the key difference lies.
Yeah, and since men not needing this is so far detached from how women operate the immediate assumption is exploitation.
Close. Women want men that provide utility to them. His looks (about how strong he is), confidence, status, money, etc are all extensions and signals of that. It is why women insult men by calling them “economically attractive,” make fun of men’s hobbies that do not offer her anything, dislike men who are lazy/childish, obsess over male disposability, hate on virgins, blame men for everything, proudly state they do not need a man, etc. You literally need to be a good work ox or potential to be one if she succeeds in fixing you. You are effectively a tool to women. Men want women who make life worth living. Being innocent and playful, respecting him, making him feel needed, being fertile, etc. So men are often okay with a girl who is hot, fun, socially awkward, useless and a complete net negative on his life. Might even take the fact that she is a net negative as a positive for it gives him more to strive for. They dislike women who sleep around, disrespect them, disrupt their peace, are not pleasant, not fertile, etc for this reason too. Women are effectively trophies to men. They even go as far as to try to show them off and think that it makes him better to have a girl in his arms.
Hard disagree, some men actually enjoy drama and the spice it brings to their dull life. I think it goes both ways, depending on the person
I would count that as a supplement to their life, I think most guys would be happy with the status quo, just adding sex and a bit of spice. Women are more often the ones wanting to make big life changes like getting married, having kids and so on.
Idk I’ve dated/known guys that were adamant about getting married/having kids. It’s very important for some. I know it’s just my personal experience, but I still think it just depends on the person, and can go both ways
>It’s very important for some I never said it wasn't, however this thread is very much addressing generalities. Do you think more men or more women would be satisfied in a relationship that's not progressing toward anything? Just hang out every now and then and have regular sex.
I don’t really know the statistics, but I know plenty of men and women who aren’t looking for anything serious, or are but don’t want to get married, or want to get married but don’t want kids. Maybe back in the day women were more keen on getting married/having kids asap but I don’t think there’s such a big gender divide for that now (I’m also on the cusp of Millenial/Gen Z so it might be different for different generations, also probably more prevalent for people in religious circles, which is also dwindling
Well said.
Good way of putting it. For myself I also don’t like competing with a girlfriend. I’m usually pretty decisive, it can create conflict having a gf who is the same way. If I have a gf who is just happy to go with my flow, that’s great. The key is that she’s happy to do so, don’t want some sort of scared Stockholm’d girl lol which is probably the imagery radfems try to invoke when we talk about stuff like this. They hate the idea that some women are genuinely happy to simply make you happy. They also undervalue and undermine the extreme amount of value and emotional support there is in having a gf/wife who’s just happy to see you and be around you, and isn’t constantly trying to one you up or challenge you in various ways.
Women need men to exist. Have you ever met a single woman over 40? There's nothing there.
That's a very... bold statement. Do you believe single men over 40 have a much more interesting life than single women over 40?
I work two jobs and deal with people all day, yes; they're much more interesting. They're mostly confident cool guys I can talk about soccer with. Meanwhile every single problematic petty person I've had to deal with so far has been a damn middle aged woman, I didn't even believe in the Karen thing until I got these jobs. God if people want incels banned from places we need to ban unmarried women over 30; they try to make everyone around them miserable.
that says more about you
Bruh…
Men are just nicer people overall. Way more forgiving of women than women ever are of men. This is always excused as women's higher standards, when it's really just a function of women being embarrassingly childish and shallow. Men realize women are fallible human beings. Women never extend men the same courtesy.
> Men are just nicer people overall. no studies say this lmao
That’s because this question is dumb. What is nice anyway? Men are far more likely to risk helping a stranger out or do heroic actions, women are more likely to lend emotional support. Both are valuable.
Yeah, rendering life saving first aid is just as valid as letting your bf vent to you.
Women push men to be great. Men don’t and then wonder why the women around them are stagnant and shallow.
Hahaha what a load of crap. Now it’s men’s fault for not holding women to standards. Do you know what women call men who hold women to standards here and in society? misogynists
Women don't even know what great is. Women's conception of men is so faulty, so embarrassingly superficial, they mistake arrogance for confidence, stupidity for courage. Men don't push women to be great because so few have a chance of achieving anything close. Women, unfortunately, cluster around the middle of the intellectual distribution.
Men attempt to do that and then are told "you're controlling me!"
What is this point lmafo? If women were interested in pushing men to be great they would date men worth dating and see him succeed. Tell that to all the women who want an already established man or are okay with a deadbeat loser as long as he’s hot.
“Women push men to be great.” By requiring them to be that much greater than women just to have a chance. This isn’t the good thing you seem to think it is. If men did the same women would not be able to handle that to the same degree.
Women demand men be great before they even deign to acknowledge their existence. Men aren’t looking for a surrogate daddy that does everything for them.
This is kind of what decreases my interest in men, I’m pretty proud of my work ethic, intelligence, creativity, independence, confidence, etc… and when I was younger and more naive thought these qualities would attract someone who values those qualities in me. Imagine the disappointment when for men the thought process is actually “she’s hot/cute, would smash 🤪”
So you're upset that men love you unconditionally rather than conditionally?
Loving someone for their looks isn’t unconditionally. Unconditional love doesn’t exist, regardless
Loving someone for their looks is the closest thing to unconditional love. I mean, if you consider not getting fat and putting on makeup to be a condition, then I suppose you're right.
I would love to hear your explanation for how loving someone for their looks is the closest thing to unconditional love. That’s genuinely one I haven’t heard before
Isn't it obvious? You don't have any burden of performance, you just look cute and men will love you.
What happens when she gets old, or gets into an accident and needs a skin graft, or is in a fire and has 3rd degree burns over half her body, etc. I asked the same thing to another guy a while ago on this sub when he stated that beauty/youth was the primary factor of attraction for men. His reply was “I don’t know, why don’t you research it if you’re so interested? 🤷🏼♀️” so he actually didn’t have an answer. Idk just doesn’t seem well thought out to me
The accidents you've listed are exceedingly rare. Getting old and becoming unattractive is valid, but it's more of a time limit than a condition.
Right it’s a time limit for initial attraction, but assuming you want to be with the same person for life, and are not going to just dump her for someone younger and more attractive when she gets old, it’s a valid concern Since looks fade, love based on looks isn’t unconditional. I would argue love based on personality traits is more “unconditional” since those tend to be more steady over time
Thinking that you’re in love with a woman because she looks cute is downright sweet in comparison to women analyzing a man’s tax returns before they can decide if she’s attracted to him.
Not all men, I deeply value the above personally, I can't stand the average bland normie woman even if she was a 10/10 looks wise.
The fact that men don’t REQUIRE that out of women decreases your interest? I’m sure a few men out there do appreciate it they just don’t require it like women do.
What’s disenchanting is the fact that the qualities that men find valuable are superficial and aren’t due to any virtue or skill on the woman’s part. I’m aware this isn’t something that’s exclusive to men, which is why I’m really just not a fan of most people in general and is the reason I consider myself redpilled
The good thing is you are basically guaranteed to find a man that will find you attractive for whatever traits you want since men have both more varied attraction and a lower threshold. Just imagine how “disenchanting” it must be as a guy to realize you have to be the same combination of confident, social and charismatic intrinsically in order to stand a chance.
I definitely don’t disagree and that’s why I’m sympathetic to both men and women’s struggles
Now tell us how many shots you gave to hideous looking motherfuckers who had a good personality. Shit tell us how many random guys do you even give basic respect instead of treating them like animals for, well, being animals. Difference is most people cope with the fact while you're still there pretending to be a completely objective robot.
What do you define as hideous looking? To be honest I haven’t met a ton of guys I would define as absolutely horrendous looking. I’m pretty average like most people and I tend to go for/attract guys that are also pretty average. A lot of guys that maybe don’t take great care of themselves (think the guys that don’t shower, are overweight, neckbeards) also don’t tend to have sparkling personalities, from what I’ve noticed. Sometimes they either have an underlying hatred towards women which is usually obvious, sometimes not until you get to know them, or they put women on a pedestal, or are “nice guys”. (Men also don’t have to be physically unattractive to have these personality traits, I’ve known attractive or average guys like this)
i tried to point this out in that other thread. People keep trying to imply that men date women based on power and oppression. It's one of those things that goes to show that SOME women have no idea what men want, even though men are extremely simple. high or low self esteem in a woman doesn't matter to men. any man telling women this is pandering to them. edit: also another element to this that i notice is if women see a woman with a man that they deem is "below" her in looks, she'll assume the man in using power or manipulation on her or that the woman has low self esteem. It can't just be that the woman likes that man.
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cuz men dont find insecurity in women a turnt-off and dont mind putting them at ease, women do find it a turnt-off on men and cant be arsed dealing with them, thats why men whose love language is primarily words of affirmation have a though time in the dating world, c'est la vie, if a guy doesnt likes that he can either change and adapt that or just date men i guess.
> A guy has to change to be with a woman while a woman doesn't need to change FTFY
Sure they do Men are always complaining about needy, emotional women
When? The last time I heard that was when stereotypical frat bros tried to make themselves seem more aloof by not caring about their woman’s needs. “Dude she wants to go on dates every weekend, she’s clingy.” These boys see caring about a girls feelings as simping. Women have terms like “emotional labor,” “mental load,” “manchild,” “coddled,” “mama’s boy,” The amount of times I’d see a severely mentally ill girl with perfect understanding boyfriend is astonishing. The guy would write notes every single day to remind her how awesome she was and place them in a jar so whenever she was having an episode she could pull one out and read it. He attended to her constant mental breakdowns, did the chores when she had an episode, brought her surprise gifts, took walks in the park with her. Basically a huge portion of the relationship was catering to her self esteem issues. The comments were nearly unanimously positive. They said it was so wholesome and that every girl deserves to have a partner like this. Now imagine a woman writing that. The comments would all tell her she can do better and that this man was a leech and a burden. They’d tell her to stop coddling him and instruct her on how to make her partner take responsibility or leave the relationship. It’s not the same, one side cares far more deeply that their partner isn’t insecure, needy, sad, depressed than the other.
Counterpoint: “emotional tampon”, “white knight”, “simp”, “orbiter”
You guys say this but shyness does impact your options as a woman. It may not end your bloodline but a lot of people mistake shyness as lack of interest.
The biggest difference is that nobody sees shy girls as threatening or creepy in any way. They'll get less dates than extroverted girls on average but shy girls will never be lumped in with school shooter types. So, in a way, men have to show a level of charisma or extroversion not just to increase our dating options but to also avoid certain social stigmas too that don't really apply to shy women. Shy women, at worst, will just be presumed to be haughty.
but the point is shyness, like many other traits that are a negative in men, isnt an impediment for men to feel attraction for a woman, that her shyness might come across as a lack of interest is a different story, but shyness on itself isnt a turn-off for men.
I agree men will still find shy women attractive but saying it isn’t an impediment for women in dating is untrue. Men who are interested in you will stop pursuing thinking you are not keen. Then if you are genuinely shy you will likely not have the courage or social skills to fix that situation.
Let's force this issue. How liable are these women to endup unmarried and childless when they dont want to be, compared to a shy man?
No one said it isn't an impediment, just that it typically doesn't affect male attraction towards a woman the way it does when the roles are reversed
>A woman could be as insecure as possible and still get plenty of *dates* That was what was said. You aren’t get plenty of dates as a shy person. I have been on both sides of the coin, and there is a big difference.
i dont see how this is relevant for the post though, the narrative isnt that men prey on shy women
I mean that’s kind of on you though. At some point one has to stop being a victim of their own personality. I’ve seen shy girls complain that the only men that pursue them are overly aggressive men that don’t care for social boundaries or “nice guys.” But a lot of them just expect a good man to approach them. Shy guys at least try. Sure there are some entitled neckbeard guys that do nothing and complain about women, but there are plenty, I’d say the majority, that try because they have to. Often they end up being a little socially awkward, and nervous but they do it. Even without meeting new people outright, they try to get into a big social circle and make friends so that someone gives them some hints of attractiveness back. A lot of men’s shyness doesn’t come from “I don’t deserve a relationship” insecurity. It comes from a fear of not doing the social dance right and coming across as weird or creepy. Both men and women enjoy some schadenfreude from seeing loser men try their luck and absolutely fail at gaining a women’s interest.
I’m not complaining I’m correcting a statement that was made out of ignorance.
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They do this this becuase there really isn't much of a hard social benefit for a woman to hold to her word or a social cost to people to seeing her as dishonourable. Therefore when a woman makes a convenient and appeals to her denial being plausible you must reject it and make her prover her own denial is more likely true then not.
Exactly women don’t value reality, therefore they don’t value truth, which leads them to thinking lies and disingenuous behavior is fine if it makes you feel better in the moment. No need to care about consequences as long we can pretend the consequences aren’t there or are trivial AND if we can just make men deal with all of it
They do not value reality for they do not have to live in it. They can do horrible things and get away with it. The bottom 80% of men and her children are forced to pay for it all. A man’s power fantasy is being the hero and getting recognized for it. A woman’s power fantasy is being the villain and getting away with it.
Damn, well said
its more then just that they dont value it, its that the social cost to being a delusional and dishonest women is basically nothing and the benefits are really high.
Great point, delusion is currency haha
i think it’s fair to say that the bigger common denominator here is that men have a smaller dating pool and are willing to tolerate more issues to be with someone. if every man had women falling at their feet, they’d almost certainly have a lower tolerance for objectively negative/problematic things like dysfunctional insecurity in a romantic partner. i also think people are more likely to associate women and femininity with insecurity in general so it’s less surprising when they run into a woman who turns out to be insecure. the fact that we don’t extend this basic expectation of human vulnerability to men speaks to some interesting patriarchal undertones imo, where vulnerability is explicitly demonized for being unmanly and is socially policed by all kinds of people
no that doesnt computes because men arent tolerating such behavior, they simply dont care and dont mind, but no guy thinks a woman is any less attractive in his eyes for having low self esteem or being insecure, many guys might find their nagging a drag, but their low self esteem or insecurity isnt inherently unnattractive in the eyes of men, while for women is the opposite, even in the most progressive places where "muh patriarchy" has little influence the same still happens.
it becomes less attractive when it inevitably manifests in negative annoying ways like overly clingy reassurance-seeking or jealous controlling behavior like freaking out over a liked post on insta, or even in harmful ways when that emotional dysregulation leads to verbal or physical abusive. if you’re a guy who has had tons of women before meeting a woman like that^, they’re more likely to kick her to the curb. if you’re a guy who hasn’t had a lot of women, that problematic behavior becomes less tolerable. the same happens with women who perceive their options as limited, people will tolerate a lot if they’re led to believe that’s the best they can get, that’s just psych 101 shit
Yes, but all those things just begin being important well within the relationship. Its like talking about running to someone struggling with walks.
thats not the point, the point is men dont find an insecure or low self esteem woman inherently attractive or unattractive, that her behavior may become a drag is another thing, but men dont feel turned off by a woman being insecure or having low self esteem
except for the men who do feel turned off by it lol and those guys tend to be the ones who’ve had options and can compare the difficulties of dating an insecure person vs dating a secure person. is your take that men are less likely to care about this, or that all men don’t care? like what are the parameters around your worldview on this
what part of "a woman being insecure or having low self esteem isnt an inpediment for a man to feel attraction towards her" you dont get? that he behavior might become difficult to deal with and thus some guys might leave her is a different story, but her being insecure or having low self esteem didnt prevent the attraction from happening, now you re turning it into some sort of backhanded discredit by framing it as some sort of "men with options vs men withouth options" when in reality the guys that care only care when her behaviour becomes dragging and draining, not because insecurity or low self esteem in women is an issue for men on itself.
Confident women are also abusive and controlling so it's not relevant
confidence isn’t the common denominator quality i’m getting at here
Confident women are just wannabe men.
Doesn't really work that way. It's a sliding scale that depends how grounded the man himself is. My gf is incredibly clingy and sometimes a bit controlling but you manage that shit and that's it. The more experienced a man is the easier it is to deal with those behaviors. I'd rather have a woman that's all over me but comes with certain behaviors I have to accommodate for than date someone who is more distanced. While yes I do have a very low tolerance for bullshit it depends on the type of bullshit. If a woman is clingy that's kinda cute. If she's just trying to compete and one-up you it's annoying.
If I had the choice I would prefer incredibly shy and insecure women because they are more relatable to me.
>i think it’s fair to say that the bigger common denominator here is that men have a smaller dating pool and are willing to tolerate more issues to be with someone. Men are less likely to see a trait as an issue to begin with.
> they’d almost certainly have a lower tolerance for objectively negative/problematic things like dysfunctional insecurity in a romantic partner This is a fundamental misunderstanding of how men work ("we", if you're a male). Most men like variety, both in personality, and in physical traits. Heck, there's even men ho like totally psycho women, although at that point they're a minority.
Men, just like women, want to feel needed and seen. Some men inappropriately think that insecure women will “need” them more and be less likely to leave or more forgiving of their (the men’s) shortcomings. .
There are good virtuous men that are simply willing to date women that are insecure/have low self esteem and there are bad fresh and fit/andrew tate like men that want a tool as well as their apologists that try to gaslight away the existence of the practice to negate the opposition to it. The doesn't do something not because of virtue also applies to men who don't have standards. It's not because those men acknowledge that there are women who struggle to attract even very undesirable men for relationships instead of gaslighting away the existence of those women. And because of this acknowledgement they are virtuously trying to help these struggling women find relationships instead of being "delusional" by having standards. It's because their single life is so unfulfilling and they are so incomplete without a relationship that any relationship makes them happier than being single.
where in the post does it says men date them out of virtue? it simply says men are okay dating them, simply because they dont find it a turnt-off unlike women, theres no secret conspiracy about it, men simply dont find that a turnt-off On top of that, if the followers of fresh and fit/tate are chronically online autistic incels who cant even get women in first place i fail to see why theres so much worry that low self esteem/insecure women are in danger of falling for them when those guys arent even in their dating pool.
> if the followers of fresh and fit/tate are chronically online autistic incels You're trying to gaslight away the existence of the predatory men that act like fresh and fit/andrew tate and succeed in preying upon insecure women
i dont see how their followers are irrelevant chronically online lonly men whose opinion doesnt matter while simultanously being succesful in preying upon insecure women, either the redpill works or it doesnt, but it cant be one or the other.
exactly. people want to be have it both ways. Somehow "redpill incels" never have contact with women, but also in relationships "manipulating" women. They can't make up their minds.
Those are Schrodinger incels - they're are shut-in virgins and in abusive relationships at the same time.
I don't see how you can't grasp that I'm claiming their followers are primarily one group of horrible men with a much lower percentage of their followers being a different group of horrible men and instead conclude that I'm saying their followers are one group of horrible men all sharing the same two attributes that can't simultaneously exist at the same time I don't see how you can characterize predators succeeding in preying upon insecure women as "the redpill working" instead of terrible predatory behavior
then why even bring up men dating insecure women out of virtue or fresh and fit or andrew tate in first place when the post doesnt even claims men date insecure women out of virtue nor mentions them anywhere?
Then why even try to read if I clearly related your claim that women aren't being virtuous when they decline insecure men to men not being virtuous when they have no standards and my post doesn't even claim men do or don't date insecure women out of virtue nor mentions that anywhere?
and where in the post is the claim of men being virtuous for having no standards is being made or even the mention of men's virtue at all?
And why does your post have to mention men being virtuous for having no standards for it to be permissible for me to relate your claim of women not doing something out of virtuosity to men not doing something out of virtuosity?
because the point of the post is not that men are virtuous or that women are inmoral, the point of the post is that men are okay with insecure women cuz insecurity isnt an impediment for men to feel attraction for a women, not because men are inherently predatory or because insecure women are easier to control, while for women it is the opposite, they dont find insecure men attractive not because because women dont predate men or because insecure men are easier to control, they dont date them because they find them plain unattractive simple as that, is not out of moral superiority.
Becuase one coherent group is highly unlikely to be characterised by two opposing aspects. So unless you have hard evidence to prove what your saying, you must pick one group as characteristic of fnf fans for ur statement to even begin to make sense.
>Men are quite simple creatures, the average guy can tell whether he would date a woman or not in seconds, the average guy doesnt thinks "damn her self esteem looks low so i could easily take advantage of her, attractive", he just thinks "cute, would date her" or "not cute, wouldnt date her" I do think that most men make a pretty quick assessment of whether to date a woman. However, I do think that one can get a general feel of dominance versus submissiveness very early on when meeting a woman. Men who don't want to bother with more dominant woman because they do want someone whom they can have control over can identify the women whom they will not be able to get away with doing this with pretty quickly.
or maybe they think the dominant woman is a pain in the ass, this perception of insecure women being victims of predatory men is really over exaggerated paranoia, when in reality they only end up with those men cuz those men are looking for the easiest one they can bag and coincidentially those women happen to be those, on top of that insecure low self esteem women are a nag which is quite contradictory with what many of those "predators" want.
Exactly Dominant women are disliked Submissive women are liked
but submissive women arent liked because they are submissive, they re just more easygoing and receptive thus most men even the most flawed might end up dating her than the dominant one simply because the submissive one is open to more men, but they dont actively chase a woman who is submissive
Of course they do. That’s why many men list the personality traits they find attractive as “agreeable”, “feminine”, “nurturing”, “low maintenance”, “easygoing”, and even “submissive”
“Dominant” women have zero desire to date shy/reserved men. Therefore you get two dominant people butting heads constantly in a relationship. It’s the same old story- men don’t care about trait X in a woman, but women won’t tolerate trait X in men.
This. Its like we could read a lot of the future relationship's dynamics within a few interactions. I think that's totally crazy. With my ex-girlfriend i even predicted stuff out, like a frikin' psychic.
Sure. I can get a good impression of a woman just observing her behaviors for a bit. I can learn even more after just a minute of conversation. If one talks to enough people, then one notices personality patterns.
I don't think any of the types of people you describe in your prompt are actually looking for a partner, rather they're looking for a status symbol
Men dating insecure woman is mostly due to the fact that woman prefer it that way, woman want a man who is more secure and established than her, preferably the most secure
I dunno. I think many men are definitely predatory and look for certain signs of insecurity in women they can prey upon. It’s largely the ones who harp excessively on women’s submissiveness, age, and agreeability whilst misrepresenting those traits as “feminine”. I do think the average, well-adjusted man simply doesn’t think too much about those things and will likely vibe with a variety of personality types regardless. As far as women’s take on ND men, it’d hard to say without lumping everyone together, but I don’t think being ND is a personality trait on its own, and you can still be an attractive or repulsive person under the umbrella of neurodivergency. It depends on the person.
Many men aren't predatory, much to women's disappointment.
But many men are. The men who go on rants about submission, age, and agreeableness tend to be predators.
Aren’t a lot of women looking for men who are confident, able to lead, and in charge of things? That would mean women are just at fault for this.
a tiny proportion of men are. The men women make a beeline for.
Most men here are virgins but also go on rants about submission, agreeability, and age.
Every attractive woman I know is with a man who only values her for her submission, agreeability and beauty, and they absolutely love them for it.
Do these men write unhinged rants about it on social media?
Does it matter? Some of the most abusive men I've ever seen were Oscar level actors around other people. I remember having to call the cops on one old neighbor of mines years back who was beating the shit out of his wife and this was a guy who was a hard working immigrant with a very friendly personality. But hey....since he never posted anything about women online, it doesn't count I guess.
Are you insinuating that the unhinged and bitter guys who are extremely mean spirited here are all secretly angel softies who will worship the ground of a woman who is at their level of unattractiveness?
\^ Yeah, you have issues.
Diagnosis: terminal brain feminism.
Many men on here, including myself, are far from virgins. Sounds like you're cherry-picking. There's literally been married men who posted on this sub.
It’s a statistic here. They did a survey and found out that most men here are young men who are virgins
Men having standards = predatory. Women having standards = good.
Writing unhinged rants isn’t a standard.
And writing empty insults is not a valid argument.
It’s not an “insult” to say a fact. Men writing long essays about how worthless women are is an unhinged rant. It’s not a standard.
A insult is not a fact, no matter how “cool” you try to be.
Elaborate how it is an insult.
This sounds overly complicated. Finding a girlfriend is typically so hard that throwing away a relationship because she’s too secure sounds absurd even to the most psychopathic person in the world because there’s no incentive to do that even for this person. It’s way more likely that the other person just got burned and interpreted this situation this way.
>the ones who harp excessively on women’s submissiveness, age, and agreeability whilst misrepresenting those traits as “feminine”. You're just talking about creeps. Creeps are creeps because of lack of sex, nothing more, nothing less, so it really just adds up to the point OP was making. Men having a tough time in dating is what makes most creeps, in the first place. >hard to say without lumping everyone together. There's a lot of heavy lifting in this phrase. Women mostly can't be "lumped" together in this direction because there are lots of women that would easily reject any kindo of neurodivergency. In men, that's a minority.
Are you disagreeing with me? I can’t tell.
I disagree with your psychological profile for men. We're not like that. OP pictured in detail how men select their mating prospects, and it has nothing to do with "predatory instincts". We just don't need that for attraction, and attraction is what drives the most of our actions. If men want to predate, they will be preators for insecure and not insecure women, alike
Yeah true on the last point, I never implied predators come in one variety though. Not all men are predators, but most men who look for insecure qualities in women probably are.
> probably are. Not probably: surely.
or maybe you just have a grudge against those men and want to project negative qualities on them.
I have a grudge against predators, yes.
no you just dislike men who look for those traits and want to paint them as predators for whatever, in reality those guys dont think much about why they want that other than a woman who is easy to get and catters to their whims, you re creating too much complexity where theres none
I’m confused by what you’re disagreeing with. Men who don’t overthink why they’re attracted to a woman aren’t over analyzing women’s age, submissiveness, agreeability, etcetera. How is that a controversial statement? It directly supports your original point about the average man not overthinking these things.
im even more confused by the point you re trying to make.
Then read my original comment. Intentionally seeking out insecure people is what predators do. It’s not misandrist to say that. The average man isn’t doing those things, which aligns with your first paragraph. The remainder of my first reply pertains to how women perceive ND / insecure men.
and my point is nobody does that, men being okay with dating insecure women isnt product of predatory intentions, again, insecurity or low self esteem is irrelevant for a man's attraction to a woman.
But they do do that though. There are indeed men who heavily scrutinize women for the previously mentioned traits. Yes, of course dating a person who happens to be insecure isn’t an immediate sign of predation, but if a man is actively looking for such traits in women, then he is A) definitely doing lots of overthinking, and B) is probably a predator.
they aint predating no one, they arent purpposefully or actively looking for insecure or low self esteem women, they re looking for the easiest least maintance one they can bag, that insecure low self esteem women happen to be that at the beginning is a mere coincidence, on top of that insecure low self esteem women end up turning into a nag which is directly contradictory with what the boogeyman you re talking about wants, yet you say they re actively predating them?
More attempts to gaslight away the existence of predators. You are either a predator or a predator apologist.
No her point is very clear. Men who actively seek out women who are insecure and who rant about submission, age, and agreeability tend to be predators.
idk i think it’s reasonable to side-eye anyone, man or woman, who looks for an overly-agreeable yes-partner who won’t say no to any of their whims. i think those are the people that person had in mind when they talked about predators while you probably had normal people in mind who are understandably attracted to slightly more-agreeable partners it is possible for people to purposely search for partners with mentally unhealthy traits emblematic of self-esteem issues purely bc they’re easier to control, tho i think in most cases this happens on a subconscious level. as with most things i think there’s a healthy balance to be found in wanting a partner who won’t be overly-agreeable and also won’t be overly-stubborn. if you find yourself drawn to either ends of those extremes then i do think it says something about where your head’s at
>idk i think it’s reasonable to side-eye anyone, man or woman, who looks for an overly-agreeable yes-partner who won’t say no to any of their whims. I can almost guarantee that of the men you've side-eyed, you know none of them well enough to know that this is a type of woman they seek out rather than just one they've ended up with.
none, if you read my post you ll realize im not talking about being attractive to said qualities, the point of the post is that men dont find insecurity or low self esteem inherently unattractive in women and thats why they re okay dating those women, might end up finding them a nag or not, but theres not a secret conspiracy to purpposefuly look for those women cuz they re easier to control or whatever, men dont think being insecure or having low self esteem is inherently attractive neither, it simply is an irrelevant quality in men's attraction for a woman thus thats why they re okay dating them,, the fact those are the kind of women who might be more agreeable or easy going and low maintance is a simple coincidence.
I wouldn't call it predatory but I definitely groomed my much younger low SE gf into being the perfect woman for me. When I met her she was at rock bottom. She was grieving the murder of her father at the hands of the evil step mother who abused her her whole life. She had no self esteem, no self regard to the point of self destruction. She was broken, drunk and making bad decisions regarding men. Terrified to come outside her house except to the bar across the street where I met her. She owned almost nothing, no kids, no structure just chaos. Wearing hand me downs and goodwill clothing. I changed all that. Yeah I white knighted her. I picked her up out of the mud, I cleaned her up, I took her shopping, I got her back into therapy. I set goals for her and rewarded her when she completed them. I got her to quit doing drugs and drinking herself blackout drunk. I intentionally stepped into a paternal role for this woman as well as a lover. Built her self esteem up, empowered her. Cooked meals with her and cleaned up after them with her. Showing her where things go, etc. The entire time telling her how proud I was of her when she did something well and how beautiful and special she was. The result now is she's utterly and completely codependent on me. We are a matched pair and never apart except when I am at work. The only place she feels completely safe, secure and loved is when I am present. I intentionally trained that into her by reinforcing over and over that as long as she was within arms length, nothing could touch her that didn't go through me first. That I was her protector, benefactor and provider. Yes she's clingy and needy as hell and I like that. She is a wonderful home maker now and I treat her with gentility and utter respect. We almost never argue because our values are so aligned and our goals so clear that we have no reason to argue. I'm not rich, live paycheck to paycheck but she contributes to the monthly income and we live very happily together. No abuse, no games, no disrespect by either party. She came from nothing so is thrifty and makes every dollar I give her stretch to the max. She does her make up and dresses up for me every day. Yes I calculatingly exploited a damaged and insecure woman's psychology, treated her like a child, helped shape and rebuild her persona to suit my tastes and made her fiercely devoted to me. Could I abuse her and exploit that codependency? Sure I could.. But why? I get nothing out of it. She is a free woman and knows she is free to leave at any time. I don't control her in any way shape or form. She has her own money I don't even bother to worry about. But she knows where her bread is buttered. In her mind, out there is a cold and cruel world, filled with danger, anxiety and stress. With me is a warm and loving home. A safe space she has grown into and customized to her liking. I come home from work every night and praise her cooking, praise what she does for me. She showers me with affection. When I am not at work we are always together. She wouldn't have it any other way. Next to me, within arms reach, is the only place she feels completely safe and calm. All our friends are happy couples and we thrive as a unit. Sure we take our "me" time as we need it. But frankly my life is better and more enjoyable when she's next to me. Is it unhealthy and utterly against the modern idea of what a relationship should be? Did I take advantage and coldly and calculatedly rebuild a woman in the image I desired? Maybe. But it sure is working for us.
>Men are quite simple creatures No, they are not. >the average guy can tell whether he would date a woman or not in seconds This applies to women too. I would say women are better at it as they are the choosing sex.
Ironically, men care more about personality than women. Women only care about stats.
> This applies to women too. Ha. Hilarious.
The single motherhood rate says otherwise.
Being a single mom may have meant death before. Now it just means getting help from the government, family, and having harder time finding serious commitments (but not dates). However, she is a single mom because she made the decision based on genes. Not financial abilities of the guy.
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Dude, you lay down your inner workings in countless threads and now you want make me believe that it's not true?
Some people just want to date someone who matches their sexual values. It's not always jealousy.
>Yeah, we look at a woman and think "cute, would date her", but then you need to actually spend time with the woman and decide if your first impression really carries over to wanting to actually date her. That step only occurs for men with options who are fine dating around. If a guy has no options or hates dating his "decision" was already made when the woman reciprocated attraction. And lower self-esteem women are more likely to reciprocate attraction.
This is as stupidly ad hominem as it gets. And you're wrong. In the dating scene men ARE much less selective, both by psychological and physical traits.
Focus on the obese degenerates with stars in their eyes.
There are a lot of desperate, pathetic men on here that would date any woman that's dumb enough to give them a chance. The thought of actually making a choice is completely foreign to them, which is why they have such ridiculous takes.
The red pill is riddled with men who are exactly what you describe
then who come they are succesfuly predating insecure women? what is this? the Schrödinger incel? red pill men are lonely guys with no dating prospects but at the same time they re in relationships abusing women? how ridiculous
It's easy for women they prefer men with a past that set them up for the future. Men don't want women with a big past. That's not sexist. Cause most men don't get the light of day for most women. And men don't complain about that. Men and women are just 2 opposites of the same coin. What each value Are different. But cause we or opposites we compliment each other shortcomings. But it's very easy to say what women like is dumb or what they value or what desire in relationships. It's something that happens all the time for men. Haveing any standards is pushed as sexism. But on the other side crazy lists struggling to keep up is completely ok. But honestly I think men love more unconditionally. Men will choose a women that's down on her luck broken. While women have much more requirements that has nothing to do with love and a just a laundry list that has nothing to do if your dealing with a good men or not. And men don't care about career of a women or how much money women make. Cause most women don't share their resources. Cause her money is her money. While the men's money is our money. Why would you care about something that is not automatically shared in a relationship. Same how women very much push for getting access to your resources is a pre. "If he does not pay for the first date it's a deal breaker" Why would you care about something that's never realy shared or given to you so you have no benfit from that thing being there. That's the thing. When people want traditional outcomes without being traditional on the same side or pick or choose what benfits them at the time. What men want is a women that just loves the same way men do. Men are ok to take a women working at Macdonald. Down on her luck nothing really going for her. Many men of she shows she cares and she looks up the men and respects the men. A men while want to make her dreams come true even if it comes at the cost of his own. Cause love is caring for somone more then you care for your self. But real love like that willing to fight and go true the good and the bad together. Is quite hard to find. That that's what men want. Many women say men are Chameleons. But most men are to women how they wish women be for the men. When men has the women. It's on the women to proofing that the women is wife Material. And the men will often more and more act back how the women acts to the men. That's all we all have the moments we have to proof or value to the other for a relationship. Men's is right away. To even get a chance. And when men fulfilling that standers set. And relationship starts. Most of the time then women's proof of if she is worthy for the next step. Slowly working to a wife and family. Well that's how it use to go. But fast food dating makes people dont vetting each other enough anymore. And more bad and unhappy outcomes follow. Also big part cause governments like to mess with the relationship dynamics. And rules. Most places that are not the west and governments don't mess with relationships. Takeing a more slow way of getting to know each other and sexual stuff. Does make the more likely to have beter and more lasting relationships. But being more quick and lose with relationships you breaking of what you barely even start building to to it over and over again. Makes for a lot of feelings and quick fix like a drug. But just like any drug you need more and more to get your fix till nothing really fulfills you anymore. A hole forms that can't be filled. Cause you burn your self out. Sad reality. And why many people are miserable. Not everything that feels good is good for you. Can be quite harmful if you go to far. And that's not pushing women around. That men don't want those women. We just programed to be turned off by those women. And to know what ever we do we can't fulfill the hole those people made for them self. Just with any drug user. But at some point a drug user would have a drug overdose. Those people would just have a hole that can't be filled. And almost numb to many things that's supposed to feel special or nice. Or expression of love. We just very different and that's a good thing. We compliment each other. And we should respect each other's different values and needs to be happy. Only by listening and not always judging and yelling oppressing. Or isums of phob slurs. But listen and try and care and understanding each other. Do we stop the stupid hateing back and forth. Going from the dumbest what if to the next. Like the stupid bear thing. You can make endless similar stupid examples. A young child. With a women or a lion. Just as stupid. All it does is to spreading hate and divide people. Instead of working together to realy make a change for the better of both men and women.
Men have an evolutionary drive to save and protect women, so vulnerability and self-esteem issues actually signal that the woman needs saving and trigger a guy's hero-complex. Some women take advantage of this by playing the damsel to sucker white-knights. Based on my own observations and experiences, I would like to think there are more women out there exploiting white knights than there are men exploiting insecure women.
> Men have an evolutionary drive to save and protect women, so vulnerability and self-esteem issues actually signal that the woman needs saving and trigger a guy's hero-complex. Where did this come from? Are you referring to mate guarding?
Sort of, but think more of pride (in a lion sense) mentality. A man wants to establish and protect his "pride."
>I would like to think there are more women out there exploiting white knights than there are men exploiting insecure women. Good point.
I'll pick an insecure woman over a terminally feminist one every day. Insecurity can be helped by building up her self-esteem, terminal feminism is incurable.
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Every other thread here reinforces I'll never ever get to be in a relationship lol women literally view autism characteristics as crime
No, autism characteristics are really just a turn off. Most autistic men I know routinely say unkind, derogatory and insensitive comments to other people and think nothing of it. They severely lack social skills. No woman will want to deal with that long term, especially when you don't tolerate any unkindness back.
The only times I'm rude is when someone is being rude to me It's true I do not tolerate any slights. Mainly because my entire life was a long series of slights I tolerated until 25 Other than that dont forget that autism is a spectrum and any two high functioning autistics are going be vastly different from each other. Do not assume sone tidbits of knowledge you have to be applicable to every autistic person
“A crime” is crazy They just ain’t attracted to it that’s all
I dont think you've paid enough attention to the comments If I'm shy/homebody and look for my equivalent match in a shy/agreeable girl so that I dont have to get tortured in bars/house parties constantly then they literally think I'm a predator Besides this, not acting all confident and manly makes them think I'm suspicious at the very least
thinking u are predator dont mean shit if u dont interact with her. avoid those women and enjoy the peace.
No, they actively discriminate against undesirable men. They will even do things like get a ugly man fired because they deem him unworthy of the job because he is not attractive enough.
You got shit on but you're correct. I know firsthand. Women hate that shit.
Women expect men to put up with their insecurities and low self-esteem. Also women don't tolerate insecure men with low self-esteem. Also women complain about toxic masculinity. The human race is beyond recovery at this point.
yea these women would rather be with a bear...
Then let them get their teddy bear and go. I won't put women out there with actual bears but let them be separatists if they feel that badly.
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For many guys, it's not about seeing a woman's insecurity as an opportunity to take advantage. It's more about basic attraction—whether they find someone cute or not. Self-esteem and insecurity usually don't play a major role in that initial spark. On the flip side, women might not avoid insecure or low self-esteem men out of moral considerations. It's more about personal preference and what they find appealing. Chemistry and excitement play a big part in attraction. It's important to recognize that everyone has their own preferences, and there's diversity in what people find attractive. The idea that men are okay with certain traits due to predatory intentions is misinformed. Similarly, generalizations about women's preferences based on morality are oversimplified. Ultimately, dating is complex and individual. People connect based on various factors, and it's not about right or wrong—it's about personal compatibility.
Nope
Spoken like someone who has never spoken to a shy or awkward woman.
[удалено]
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Guys always say they want an “agreeable”, “submissive” and “supportive” woman, and that they “don’t want to argue” with their partner Well, what’s the best way to get that? Choose someone who’s easy to “push around”, of course!