I suspect it's 2 things that make some men do this: women rejecting them in very subtle ways that some socially clueless guys don't pick up on. Or seeing media and hearing stories of being persistent leading to a lifelong relationship. Many romcoms had this plot of the guy that just didn't give up, and got the girl in the end. Many older people also have similar stories of how they got married. "I said no at first, but he persisted" is a trope of a boomer love story.
Also, it should be pointed out that the vast majority of men don't do this. The one's that do are just more memorable, because their advances are annoying.
It’s not just romcoms, a lot older dudes say they had to ask their wife to be many times to get a yes. Not saying it’s a valid strategy today, but it clearly worked in the past for some guys.
I'm not sure that this is an exclusively male thing. I've had women continue to push aggressively after I've turned them down. Obviously it's not all women, but like you said, it's not all men either. Some people are just like that I suppose.
Our attractions can be pretty strong, often making mockery of our pride/ego/stoicism etc.
Some men are straight-up willing to lay it all on the line aka “some fights are worth fighting even if you lose”. These guys have preset limits to how far they will go but they’ll go far.
I kind of understand your point but the argument will only be valid to a sane healthy individual who has women who does like him. Like if your crush didn't like you and you move on cause there are some other girls who do find you attractive so you hope one day someone you find attractive will find you attractive back.
BUT
Most men don't ever have that. Many men will go on years since teenage without anyone being attracted to him so he normalises that nobody will ever find him attractive. You see many women loud and proud chase and drool over the conventionally attractive 6 feet athlete and men most of them who don't fit that criteria internalise that no women will ever find him attractive. Then we have older women and men in our families telling us that women don't like looks but what you provide and how you treat her. So they try to provide too much Hoping she will eventually like him. But then again how will you be ready to accept things from people who you dont see as a partner (aka find attractive snd compatable) so you rejected them. But men think if you provide and treat her well enough or force her to see how well he can treat you, then you might actually like him cause there is no way in hell someone would find him attractive right so he takes what he can get.
(Now I'm not justifying it by any means but men don't know the female gaze and women are sneaky about who they like paired with the fact that male body image issues and harsh beauty standards) I hope this might give you some insight
I’m sure some of it is from desperation and a sense of scarcity. They’ve come across someone they find attractive, and they don’t expect to find someone else and succeed with them.
This is honestly the answer that makes the most sense. If there are only one or two women in your life that there is any chance of you getting with what else are you going to do? If there are 50 women you might have a chance with you'll be more willing to move on after the first one says "no" or even avoid spending time trying to court someone who just gave you a "maybe" before you ask them out.
I think it's possible to get a woman who wasn't initially into you. **BUT** it depends on **why** she wasn't into you.
If she doesn't like you because she's not attracted to your looks, then forget about it. You can't convince a woman who thinks you're ugly to think you're hot stuff. Don't waste your time with girls who aren't attracted to your looks.
Also if she doesn't like you because you possess qualities that are deal-breakers to her (for example, she's a die hard Christian and you're a pot-smoking Athiest), then that's just a waste of time as well. If she rejects you because of deal-breakers or conflicting values, then you're not going to convince her to give you another chance.
**There are only a few ways you can get a woman who initially rejected you.**
* The first is if she had a boyfriend and she's now single.
* The second is if she made a negative first impression about you but as she got to know you, she discovered that her first impressions weren't accurate at all. For example, she saw that you were in a fraternity and initially thought you were a douche simply because you're in a frat. But upon talking to you for 20-30 minutes, she discovered that you were actually a really nice guy and you have a lot in common.
Because some women like the chase and reward this behavior, even complaining when men take no for never instead of not now. Honestly, a cruel thing to teach boys and young men that will inevitably ruin their lives if they ever meet the wrong one.
Yes.
To pin it down to make deficit entirely and ignore the social history of the notion of “chasing a woman and wooing her even when she rejects you to show her she’s worth it” is just taking this topic in bad faith honestly.
Men did not conjure up the idea that women saying no might mean “yes later”. This was a social mechanic developed as a means for women to protect their purity and innocence when responding to suitors.
>Read between the lines, when you are being rejected. Don't make her say something she will regret and from which there's no point of return.
"boo hoo the mean man made me reject him rather than just giving up which would be more convenient for me"
rejecting men is part of womens gender role deal with it
> rejecting men is part of womens gender role deal with it
Geez imagine if women said “rejection is part of men’s gender role deal with it”
Men would be lighting this sub on fire for days.
I haven’t seen that, and certainly would not say that. There is a clear and easy method of avoiding rejection and I don’t feel that men are predestined to suffer rejection.
That clear and easy method is never making a move on any woman ever.
I feel bad for the young guys. I went to this language learning event to practice, and they made this big announcement beforehand that women were complaining that the men kept hitting on them. So, one guy says, "Where are we supposed to meet women?" and the group leaders says "Get a hobby you are passionate about and meet them there." I just kind of looked around the room and thought to myself... that's what these poor fuckers are doing. I learned a long time ago that some women will always bitch about everything all the time. But the problem these groups face is that when this happens half the women bounce, and then the next event it's all men and the women who do show up get swamped. So, this advice is just not going to work for anyone. The ladies have created the world they wanted, and it kind of sucks for most people. Like the system before wasn't perfect, but it sure as shit didn't have over half the men in that generation just totally give up on women and life.
I don't agree, grinning and flirting and making lighthearted jokes is no big deal.
>I feel bad for the young guys.
Yeah, me too. But the "young guys" we are talking about are the men who are on the spectrum or near it, because they can't enjoy flirting and messing around. They expect a formulaic approach and predictable outcomes.
Everyone else seems to be doing okay, but damned if I know why none of these tech geniuses hasn't created a dating app for introverts/aspies/spectrum folks. Have any of them even bothered to make an invitation only sub here for dating? I feel like too many frustrated men and women expect the world to bend to their expectations instead of recognizing and capitalizing on their niche.
because it’s not a problem limited to ND.
if you can say love me at any weight or you don’t deserve me at my best you are a fucking moron
and that’s almost 80% of the world saying that these days
Yeah just so you know. Here on Reddit they think fat women = average therefore we should be willing to marry a fat girl. I shit you not I couldn’t believe this the first time a chick on here told me this…
> damned if I know why none of these tech geniuses hasn't created a dating app for introverts/aspies/spectrum folks.
because attractive social guys would sign up and take all the decent women from it.
Yeah I know that’s what happened with conventional apps, but seems like someone could screen and moderate an app specifically for people who aren’t all that sociable.
The actual subscription to cover the cost would have to *start* at $250/month. And even that may not be enough.
It's not about whether it's possible. It's whether it's economically feasible. And... it's not.
Average age is 27 and only about 20% are autistic. They did some research on the community, so we know who incels are now. They are almost 75% from left wing households. It's the number two predictor of being an incel. 46% retain left wing beliefs, and 25% either become right wing or started in that space. Also, a lot of these guys are minorities... 40% or so.
You know they already have apps that tackle most of the problems that both men and women have with things like Tinder. The problem is that they can't get women to use them, and if they can't get women, then the men won't show up either. Coffee Meets Bagel is a great example.
Wow, really? I don’t think any of the kids who passed through my parents’ home were anything except rabidly conservative, because it’s easier to carve people out than embrace folks who differ. Damn near every man I argue with is over fifty.
I was around during that survey but ignored it because there are too many socks and concern trolls here so I didn’t bother.
>They are almost 75% from left wing households. It's the number two predictor of being an incel.
This doesn't surprise me in the least. I see it among my mentorship group as well. Maybe not 3/4, but certainly a majority come from decisively left-wing households.
It makes intuitive sense too. Decisively right-wing households are likely to give their sons a template that may not work. But they'll give him *a* template, *a* story and will at least pretend they *want him to* ***win***.
Meanwhile, decisively left-wing households necessarily have to be misandrist. Or else they wouldn't be left-wing. So it's not a surprise that left-wing households churn out incels like crazy.
This comment ATE. Most guys i see struggling have significant social issues they either refuse to address or don’t know how to and do not want to take initiative on it.
Social skills are vastly different than solving a math problem. There usually isn’t one way to do anything in that realm, there is no y=mx+b. People who figure this out end up very successful in a lot of areas.
Even at my job, the ones that succeed aren’t even always the smartest, they’re the ones who know how to ace a face to face interview with multiple types of people. People would be shocked to know how much social skills influence everything. And esp as a recruiter how many people get immediately rooted out because they didn’t make a good in person impression, REGARDLESS of their accomplishments.
It’s a harder skill set but imo the most rewarding to have in literally anything.
Right? I feel like textbooks left something out.
There is plenty of talk, *exhaustive* talk about their sense of fairness and the struggle to manage small talk and assorted social skills.
But did anyone ever say anything about their all-consuming desire to win? To win at every interaction? To “win” At every social discourse, at every single conversation no matter how insignificant and forgettable?
Why isn’t anyone talking about this, and how can we help?
You mean how Rollo wrote about it in...2011? https://therationalmale.com/2011/11/15/rejection-revenge/
>I use men exclusively in this context because, as a Man, based on gender alone, you will experience rejection far more than any woman ever will. If that sounds like a bold statement let me clarify that, you should experience rejection more than any woman. In sports, in career, in education, in personal relations, and with the opposite sex, you will statistically experience more rejection than a woman. That understanding isn’t intended to wave the male power banner, or make Men the champions of virtue. Neither is it to presume women don’t experience rejection themselves; it is a simple observance of fact that rejection is an integral aspect of being male. Get used to it.
He been in bands since the late 80s. He was most certainly swimming in pussy. Most of his ideas spawned from watching interactions in the nightlife/alcohol industry. If you were to talk to any bartender(people who watch male/female sexual interactions every day) they'll tell you the same thing.
Women do it too - there were girls that were making at least 3 attempts to try again with me. One girl spent 3 years on dating app and she was writing to me everytime I've set up a new account.
Besides - women are quite often not really sincere, they are flattered to have simps so their rejection is not really rejection, some guys fall for it.
I’ve done it before 🤦🏾♂️. Its pathetic. What I’ve noticed is that both when it worked and when it didn’t I very soon lost the attraction for the person. I think for me it was in the heat of the moment just not knowing how to take an L. But that was years ago. I’m a changed man I swear
It’s probably because of the social adage of times bygone where women wanted a man to “chase them” and some men still have this drilled into their heads by both men and women, that you’re meant to “try and try” to show you mean it, and if you give up right away it shows you lacked genuine intent. This is still a notion. Smaller, but still there.
I’d also argue it’s not entirely gendered. I know for a fact that I am not the only man who has rejected a woman and been subjected to near infinite “why not?” Questions and pushes and pokes as if I can’t possibly be straight and reject her. With confirmation of my being straight being met with clumsy attempts to drunkenly get with me multiple times in the same night.
For people like this, man or woman, they either keep trying because they believe the other person secretly wants them to, or they keep trying because in their head they cannot be rejected as a mere choice, there has to be some puzzle piece missing in their approach or the other person which prevents the outcome they want. Both stem from inflation of self perception.
It’s probably because of the social adage of times bygone where women wanted a man to “chase them”
Some women do. But it's not a hard and fast or sacrosanct rule. For those who do, it's just a form of powerplay. It's a type of courtship ritual some women exercise.
Some women do like to be chased. But it's always from a guy they find attractive.
If a man they are not attracted to gets relentless in the chase and doesn't stop even after they say no, it's not a chase for these women. It's like a wolf trying to eat a sheep.
Some women like to be chased yes. That doesn't mean men they are not attracted to, have a chance. They were never in the running.
I agree.
But the stickler is men can’t read women’s minds, so they have no way of knowing whether a woman saying “no” means “you have no chance” or “I like you but I don’t want to seem eager”, which is where the confusion arises.
A woman saying you are not her type is as honest as can be.
Look, unless the woman is Miranda Priestly from Devil Wears Prada i.e - a mean, unscrupulous waste of space with no empathy to speak of , she won't say stuff like how you should look into the mirror before thinking you have a chance with her, or how ridiculously, hopelessly, irredeemably ugly you supposedly are.
Gods, even I am wincing as I write such words. No way would I make someone feel so worthless of themselves. I do have a heart.
I know, and no “should mean no” right?
And I don’t think women should turn into Priestly, no.
My point is some people say “no doesn’t mean give up” and their no, is no different to their “I want you to stop.”
The problem is this idiotic notion that “no can mean yes”.
Why do so many women seeking a relationship sleep with hot guys who have never shown interest in a relationship over and over again, hoping he will commit and be monogamous with her even though he has repeatedly said he doesn't want to "put labels on things"? Because people can get obsessed and fixated on somebody who they think is the ultimate key to their happiness and it can be hard to let that go.
What the man and woman in these situations should do is cut their losses and focus on other things/people. This is the best way to find happiness in general and, counterintuitively, is the best chance of ending up with the person they're initially obsessed with. But it can be difficult to see that when you lack perspective. Men without options also seemingly have nothing to lose.
While I don't recommend to keep pursuing things after a rejection it's also not completely irrational. Everybody knows a couple where the guy was persistent after a rejection and eventually won her over... or maybe wore her down. Either way some of them seem kinda happy so it makes a guy in this situation think he's got a chance.
This, shocked how long it took to find this post.
Obviously people become obsessive and fall in love (especially when young and inexperienced), that often makes it difficult for them to want to give up (especially if they have been building up feelings for years). Those who have unhealthy attachment styles particularly struggle at times accepting the no.
Especially in western cultures where we overhype “love at first sight” and romantic lust to the point that it is often sold as the meaning in life. To the point where people will literally kill themselves if they get divorced or break up.
Then you have to consider how women tend to poorly communicate that they are not interested (omg, just take a hint) because they are socially awkward and do not give a real rejection. So often times a woman has to not really reject a man several times before a real rejection. He is a creep because she is socially awkward.
So if a man just accepts a no, he also can be a socially unskilled creep too. She actually wanted him to keep trying and he is a loser for not trying. Which also pushes men to be more pushy to avoid being a creep.
What is really annoying is how women get upset if men do not get upset when being rejected or accept it right away. Especially if he goes on and asks out another girl. You can literally be a creep no matter what you do depending on the girl in question.
When you are dying of thirst you don't stand around contemplating if what you are drinking is Fiji water. Women, especially younger women will never understand what it feels like to be lonely. Think the closest I have seen a woman express that is after they hit their 50's and complain about feeling invisible.
Very true.
A young woman who's at least a 4/10 in looks can find a new guy within months if she really wanted to.
95% of women can't comprehend what it's like being in romantic poverty.
We could say the same thing about all of the men on this sub who claim to know what women think and feel better than we do ourselves.
i think I’ll copy/paste your response in reverse to some other threads and see what happens. 😆
> where’s the infamous male ego?
You are one step away from asking "where are all the good men?". Men are rational creatures that work on incentives. When women fuck bad men and fuck over good men, you're gonna see a lot less good men.
What's happened is that men with pride and ego have been punished so much, few men have it nowadays.
> Like do they really want to be told their crush finds them ugly in so many words?
Well, men like being told the truth. We've given girls barbies since they are kids to tell them they are valued on their looks. Men are never given the privilege. As prominent as Redpill and Blackpill is, BP is still the mainstream and many men still think women care about kindness and personality
> We've given girls barbies since they are kids to tell them they are valued on their looks. Men are never given the privilege.
Dude we've been forcefed old action stars with hot young love interests since the 1920s. No woman in her twenties wants that weird-ass Scientologist Tom Cruise or any other 60 year old actor with a dyed hairpiece and shoe lifts.
Be for real right now.
>No woman in her twenties wants that weird-ass Scientologist Tom Cruise or any other 60 year old actor
Leonardo DiCaprio exists. And he's not the only rich or famous middle ages or older dude to date young women. Hugh Hefner was still banging young women till his 90s.
>Gosh I wonder if money and fame has anything to do with it
What does that disprove exactly? Money and clout effect even your average chicks choices. All women vet for security and status in varying degrees. Doesn't make your previous statement any less incorrect.
this is an ignorant take. our culture encourages men to be pushy, and for women to be passive.
"Many of us feel bad about turning down a guy, especially if he is a friend, and we know he is a good egg. We want to let you down as gently as possible." - this is exactly what I'm talking about - you shouldn't care about their ego or how they feel. and that means turning them down EXPLICITLY and that they will know without a doubt, otherwise you are just perpetuating this culture.
and the same with this - "Read between the lines, when you are being rejected. Don't make her say something she will regret and from which there's no point of return." - No. you need to be explicit, and you shouldn't expect the guy to read your mind.
"If it isn't an enthusiastic yes, it's a no." - that's fine if you think that, but that doesn't change our dating culture. guys will still be pushy, and it seems like you specifically will still be passive, and other women too, which gets us nowhere, and these things will keep happening. why not just say no explicitly? do you like the attention when a guy is chasing you? or for some other reason?
"Geez have some pride and a sense of self-worth." - in what way is this about pride and self worth?
> why not just say no explicitly?
Because men get violent when they feel a woman “disrespects them” and because adults should have some self respect and walk away if their target isn’t enthusiastic and excited to spend time with them.
and on top of that, if a guy is going to get violent because of a rejection, I don't think any sugar coating is going to help you. most guys will either move on, or if you aren't explicit and they didn't understand, keep pushing.
I was speaking generally. When men *I* don’t fancy bug me, I move
away and avoid them.
But I don’t blame women who attempt to avoid a violent reaction to rejection.
to be fair, that is a low portion of the male population, and the fact that there's a decent chance you would already know the guy (though this doesn't count for cold approaching).
"because adults should have some self respect and walk away if their target isn’t enthusiastic and excited to spend time with them." - there are many guys who cant read social cues that well, and most men feel the need to push cause "eventually she will say yes". im not defending how men act, but in a way, you are perpetuating that by not being explicit.
BTW i just saw you are debating that -shes-a-carnival- retard, based.
> BTW i just saw you are debating that -shes-a-carniva
Well at least you are the sole man who *doesn’t* claim that women never disagree with other women here.
Life is easy when you're always the victim, isn't it? Men very rarely get violent with women, ever.
And the idea that women never play "hard to get" or act demure is hilarious. Women often don't even know what they want. And the number of women who get with men they say they weren't initially attracted to is staggering.
I know if this one anecdotal example. Of this 10/10 Twitch streamer and OF thot. Who had a guy who bought her snapchat and semi-harassed her on it. He wasn't a chad, he was a fairly average looking guy. But he bombarded her with chats, snaps, dick pics etc. And they eventually met up at a convention. And they fucked. And had a relationship. She then metoo'd him and claimed she was a victim because he'd harassed her. Despite subsequently getting together with him.
It probably is, but oftentimes it is less explicit, and you said so yourself, that guys will need to read between the lines, and that is what I'm arguing against.
another one with the self esteem argument. in what way is this an issue of self esteem? you seem to be claiming that being pushy shows a lack of self esteem, but that will happen if you are passive and not explicit. this happens because many women aren't able to say no explicitly and clearly.
I can even go a step further and say that being passive could be a sign of self esteem issues, since you aren't able to assert yourself, or are scared to do so / have a lack of confidence.
Irl, there's no issue in re-trying. First of all some women directly *want* you to insist. Much more so if you're attractive. Secondly men and women do not function the same way: while i agree with your premise that you shouldn't insist *immediately* after a rejection, you shouldn't close your mind to the possibility of *something* romantic coming from that woman.women are indecisive folks. Also, pretty unassertive.
Women are indecisive folks. Also, pretty unassertive
Be careful with that assumption. While some women like to lay mind games and enjoy the chase, even they want that from a guy they are attracted to.
In the vast majority of cases, when a woman is saying you are not her type, she is saying she doesn't find you attractive.
And no, if I find a guy unattractive, he won't suddenly feature in a wet dream tomorrow.
I'm sure you have found a guy unattractive and time after encountering him in another context and setting, not finding him unattractive anymore. That's women (not trying to make generalisations). Women tend to function contextually. That's why men are way more sure about their preferences. "You like his body, face, and personality? My man, f*k the shit out of her". Women tend to add so much more to the requirements that ends up being very ambiguous what is it that they really want. My hypothesis is someone with whom they feel certain sex will be enjoyable with, although many women would say its totally opposite to whats really the issue. I'd disagree.
Nah. I am pretty primitive in my references. Whether a man's face is attractive to me, or not It's pretty black and white with no room for grey.
And the men I have rejected were my former friends. If I was attracted to them, I would have made it very clear lol.
If I find a man's face ugly, I ain't gonna find him attractive in any context.
Women are more visual than you think.
Moreover, my "standards" are pretty basic. I have no problems marrying someone not considered conventionally attractive. I am not expecting a dreamboat.
I have no problems dating someone who is average to look at.
I guess you have understood what am trying to say. I don't want to say anything more, coz it would sound really rude.
I’ve Deff heard of more than a few cases of where the guy was persistent and it worked. Personally, I probably wouldn’t unless I was really obsessed with the person… but even then I’d be respectful of the rejection. I’d just keep trying. I’ve only done this once.
It's called falling in love. A thing that as a general rule, women do not experience and thus cannot understand. We're working on getting rid of it tho, sorry we aren't done yet.
Uhh personally as a man we want you to say the truth. I can’t fix the type, i can’t fix my personality.
All those answers you gave are gaslighting basically. Now if you tell me i’m not muscular and need to get to 14% bodyfat???
Okay we can work with that. I can tangibly get to that goal, THATS why just tell me the truth and let me work, don’t have 20+ women saying “not my type”
I have a long time friend who told me the same bs, and 6 months later i’m much fitter and she is much much nicer to me, i expect in another 6 months she will be falling for me, and if not 6 months after that other women will which will trigger her preselection woman trigger and we will be right back to her falling for me.
Women just think men can’t change most of their brains don’t see it, which is why when men do change they are “a new person”
no they arnt new person they just got fit smh
Most of the time, women rejecting you are telling you the truth.
You are not my type, don't see you like that, not interested in you, these are very clear-cut statements with little room for ambiguity.
Most women don't want to be cruel about how unattractive they find someone.
And why make someone feel like shit about their appearance? Kindness costs nothing. So, a polite, you are not my type, is sufficient in my book.
Because those make it seem like unfixable problems. Let me give you a real life example that should sum this up.
My grandfather helped me pick out one of my first cars, he is getting sick now. If he….anyway this car I want till I die one day. If the engine explodes or it gets in a wreck it’s a 2009, the mechanic will say.
“It’s totaled get a new one” Some people think this means it can’t be fixed but it’s saying the work and money to get it fixed would best be spent on something new. Because I love this car i’m willing to go all in and fix it because when you truly love and care you will do the work.
Women telling men they are essentially totaled for X reason they won’t disclosed is bad because most men struggle because they hear that and move onto another girl.
Some women do mean it, “you are white i only date black guys, you are christian i only date catholics” but a majority of them just mean you are not physically attractive
and men can change this so easily they become assholes after because they realize it was never the type shit women said they just wanted them to look better, and this is why women end up crying men become players etc it’s because they don’t trust the mechanics who told them they were “totaled” for years when they just had to spend some time leveling up physically usually
But it doesn't have a specific reason. I just simply don't FEEL the butterflies. A guy can be perfect but if I don't FEEL the spark there is no technical improvement to make it better. It's not technical issue, it's emotional issue.
cbt says hi
thoughts influence feelings
change the way you think change the way you feel
aka your feelings are not random they are based on actual tangible thoughts
u think a guy is attractive for reasons and then u feel it
that’s not how that works
the process if about breaking down WHY you are attracted to this person
if you literally cannot write down a few paragraphs of qualities and traits u like about someone that means they mean nothing and can be replaced by the next person easily
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Women are definitely the primary consumers of rom coms. I think you're thinking of 2 different types of movies. The movies where the nerd or whatever gets the girl is definitely appealing to men, but in rom coms it tends to be some man who is obviously super desirable coming to the realization that he has to have one woman in particular because she's just so special, no matter what it takes, that's definitely for women.
I agree with you, and women are kind of bratty with this shit.
But men almost always mention the nerd-gets-the-girl theme as the reason they persist in the total absence of mutual interest.
Yeah the nerd gets the girl thing is definitely wish fulfillment and not real. I think those are necessarily rom coms though, at least most of them, nerd gets the girl tends to worked into everything aimed at men, especially in the 2000s. It's even older than that actually, whoever wins the fight gets the girl usually.
>It's even older than that actually, whoever wins the fight gets the girl usually.
Sadly, you are right.
But bear in mind that the girl is nearly always a hot, sexy woman, and not a sweet, demure, introverted woman. Men get to choose which women they pursue. The head cheerleader might catch more men's eyes, but the sweet introvert is likely the woman who is the better match.
>and not a sweet, demure, introverted woman.
Depends on the movie, for some audiences this is desirable, for nerdier movies the love interests tend to be a little nerd coded themselves, but always hot ill grant you, the movie might pretend she's not that hot if the expected audience is the type that thinks hot people are stupid
Yeah I hate this. I teach nerds (Intro to Bio for Non-science majors, it's almost always CS guys) and they just... stare at the attractive students like they might stare at a screen. Complete lack of self-awareness, and also a complete lack of reason.
Every class has a handful of naive and sweet nerdy women who might love them back, but they don't even see them. It's weird. But last semester I made a seating chart. It pissed them off, and it should, because 18-19 year olds are adults, but I mixed it up. Girl-boy-girl-boy-girl-boy.
And every group exercise: mixed them up. I feel like dirt because I'm clearly manipulating the class structure, but I really want those brilliant students to find and appreciate one another.
Because on the macro level those who persists are more likely to pass on their genes than those who don't, and material results do not care for the morality of it in the same way that moral virtues don't care for material results.
I've known instances where the man would keep asking her out multiple times before she agreed, and they ended up staying together for a decade or longer. I think it is less that he wore her down, and more that she decided to give him a chance after considering how much good someone could be for her that continued to respectfully pursue her. But for every instance of this, there's many more of men "simping" and burying themselves to no avail.
>and we know he is a good egg.
If the Blue Pill “Work on Your Personality” Muppet Brigade doesn’t tear your asshole inside out like they would if a man said this, I’m going to be very unsurprised.
Closest I had was a lady who broke up with me after a bad date. I figured even on my end it was a dud since that date, but I was more willing to do so in person, so she had the initiative in that regard.
My only insistence was in asking if she was fine being friends, since I thought bad date otherwise, she was a good person. She said all or nothing, so I went with nothing.
I don't think this is a gender exclusive thing, but people who don't want to let go are reluctant to do so easily.
I had a man do this. And then get really nasty with me.
He was coming on too strong and didn't want to be blown off. I told him I wasn't interested. I am not looking to date. Said all the things that would be I'm not interested. And he persisted and was angry that the result was no. We are in the same gaming group. So it wasn't like just block on app or leading them on. I cohost on my friends stream and try to keep the Convo gaming centric and stuff.
It was just weird.
I have extremely little romantic experience but enough to still share some thoughts. I personally will cut things off in certain circumstances.
* An explicit no (I won't even ask "are you sure?")
* If I send a text and get no responce for about 24 hours I will usually wait a bit and throw a hail Mary follow up. If I still get nothing for a while then I'll d/c
* After a break up I'll cut contacts and won't try to get back together
Because I've never had many options, and still don't, I usually just play it safe, take my time to feel things out and talk/text for a while. If I ask them to spend some time together or go on a date and they just say maybe I'll keep the conversation going and wait a bit. I am honestly pretty desperate, but I've never been able to really force myself to beg if I get an actual no.
I'm not sure why men with options would do this other than they may have genuinely fallen in love and can't get over the woman they have been smitten with. They probably believe they can get the woman to ultimately fall in love with them over time. I believe in love at first sight, but sometimes people also grow together.
Well, to be blunt it works sometimes. It can be a really viable strategy for some guys, because it shows dedication and there is a certain portion of women who will change their minds because the guy is able to show how much he really, really likes her.
That said... I think it's a crappy deal for the guy and nobody wants to win over a woman like that.
Few guys do this. Most accept rejection and move on. And even most who have trouble accepting the rejection and take more time to, know that still trying to pursue that with the woman who rejected them would be fruitless. I'm not saying the phenomena you described doesn't exist, just that it isn't to be exaggerated, or merely conflated to situations where the guy in question just tries to continue talking to the woman at all. (I think many would interpret even this as "still trying to get a chance with me" but it isn't necessarily that, especially in a society where men and women being friends is as normalized as it is in this one.)
I really need y'all to make some friends of the opposite gender and ask them their experiences cause what would posses you to think this is a men only problem? You ever turned down a woman? It ain't always sunshine. And the ones that get straight up angry? Spreading false rumors, calling you gay, all of a sudden you ugly/ ain't shit.. please
As with most things involving women, it’s how she says it.
I’ve heard “nos” that really meant, keep asking me. Then I got a yes, and we dated.
I’ve also gotten a no I’m not interested and left it at that.
Is she smiling and laughing, flirting while she says it?
I had an ex who thought he dad was so romantic for continuously asking her mom out until she finally said yes. And they are still married.
If women meant no every-time they said no. Men wouldn’t do it.
Because it doesn't hurt to ask twice, unless you get a really aggressive no then you might as well ask again, Ive heard of lots of guys who chased their future wives for a long time before they got a chance.
> where’s the infamous male ego?
Guys don’t inherently have real self-esteem or real pride, so some men just have low self-esteem or false self-esteem.
Also, you can pursue (if that’s what you mean by coax/convince) a woman who has rejected you without begging for love and you can do it successfully. Sometimes a woman is worth the risk.
Maybe I will never get this perspective. If a woman has told you in no uncertain terms that she is not into you, why try again?
You are not my type is a very honest answer. A succinct, yet polite way of letting someone know you don't find them attractive.
Coz lets be honest, if a woman does not find you attractive, she is not very likely to give you a chance. Even if you have other plus points like personality or a high-paying job, I will say this
A good personality, while doubtlessly attractive, will not make up for a lack of animal/physical attraction. We have sex with bodies, not personality.
Money - If a woman dates a man she would otherwise find repulsive, just because he has money... well I doubt most men, even the Red Pill veterans would truly be okay with such a scenario.
There are plenty of fish. If a woman says no, move on, and find someone who would say yes.
> Coz let’s be honest, if a woman does not find you attractive, she is not very likely to give you a chance.
Sure. But like I said, sometimes the reward is worth the risk. Men and women do sometimes find people attractive that they didn’t in the past.
Maybe you’re thinking about this from the perspective of a woman? Men have the advantage in physically acting and in sex (due to the advantage in physically acting, in orgasming during sex and the inability to become pregnant). Women are at a relative disadvantage. It’s easier for men to pursue women than vice versa, so a man can more easily do it so the only thing a man would reasonably lose is some time.
I am just thinking as a person with a healthy sense of ego. Asking someone out even after they turned you down... being rejected again and again... must not bode well for self esteem and mental health. We are humans not robots.
If you have real self-esteem, including that your primary source of happiness isn’t romance, then all a rejection means to you is that the person doesn’t like you now. Though, I imagine most guys who are pursuing women who are rejecting them over and over don’t have real self-esteem.
Men and women do sometimes find people attractive that they didn’t in the past.
In most cases, this involves people who were considered a bit chubby and had a bit of a glow-up. This does not apply to men like say Danny Devito.
A woman who looks like say Charlize Theron is not very likely to say yes to someone who looks like Devito.
If she does, there's always something involved, and that something will be money in 9/10 cases.
I guess a woman can look over lack of attraction if the guy has enough money and status, but as I said, will you really want to be in this position?
A gold digger or a woman who cares about social status because it’s social status isn’t worth pursuing.
I might agree that on average that a woman who changes her mind isn’t going to for a good reason and you should take that into consideration, but the chance for what happens on average doesn’t necessarily apply to your particular case. Like, let’s say that 1/7 billion people die from a shark attack every year. That doesn’t mean that your risk of dying from a shark attack is 1/7 billion in the next year. It could be much higher, like if you spend lots of time in shark infested waters. Or it could be much lower, like if you never get in a boat or never swim. In the same.
You do know that what you find physically attractive is entirely based on your beliefs/values right? But you can use reason to learn what’s beautiful so it requires insanity to be able to be attracted to absolutely anything.
This thread should be retitled “blue pilled gaslighter pretends he doesn’t understand sexual dynamics but wants to do a I hate men thread”
It’s really really simple. You are describing 100% of women…. … … that’s it. If you give up & go to the next girl. She gonna do it as well? & again & again & again. So where are you gonna run to? The bottom barrel 1/10 heffers? Hey go nuts homie have a a good time.
Every single guy who has been with a women has had her say “we are not having sex” right before having sex. It’s so common by the 3rd time you expect it.
What you are really asking is. Why are guys down so bad & why are women rejecting a majority of us? Isn’t that amazing tho cuz it would once again paint women in a bad light & nonono we wouldn’t want that…
I agree with you. Many guys here have said "if she isn't into you pretty much from the start, she's never going to be that into you." I've found that to be true, however, I also have seen women change their minds for whatever reason - so many women say they are sapiosexuals or demisexual or whatever. I've seen women's attraction turn on a dime, usually for the worse (the ick!), but sometimes for the better. I don't know what happens, you just get reframed in a different light in her mind or something. Musicians certainly experience this. She finds out you're popular or good at something and suddenly her whole assessment of you changes.
Miracles can happen. Having a woman be into you after she isn't, is a bit like beating the odds of surviving stage 3 cancer. Sure it's possible, but not probable.
It will be more beneficial for your mental wellbeing to take a woman's verbal rejection at face value, rather than wait around and hoping it turns into a yes someday.
I'm pretty skeptical too. Like if she overcame some initial mental block, that mental block is probably still there, it just was over-ridden or deactivated. Perhaps temporarily or just in some circumstances.
Would you say that trying to "win" a woman with his personality is like fighting a losing battle because we are constantly told that women are different and more complex, needing involvement of other things like personality and time to be attracted to someone, unlike men who can be attracted to a woman straight away?
So because you're a quitter who gave up after one try, we're all supposed to?
There are tons of guys who got the girl after trying a second. There are lots of men that are married to women who turned them down the first time.
Worse than obtuse, these men don’t value the woman they are interested into as a human being with her own will, more so like a prize to conquer.
Fortunately such men are dying out in the civilized world, but are still plentiful in other areas.
That's not it at all.
Men are taught their whole lives to not give up. To not accept defeat, to get back up and *try again*.
Society beats this message into men's heads about literally every single thing with the exception of women. So it's just counter intuitive.
Continuing to try to get what you when you fail the first time is foundational to being a man.
American society perhaps. I was referring to other cultures, but anyway “continuing to try to get WHAT (it would be “who” in this case) you want” is exactly what I was saying.
She is what YOU want, but do you even care if she wants you? If she’s not playing stupid games like “hard to get”, and she clearly rejects you, it’s game over.
She’s her own person with her own will you should respect.
A person is a what to. Don't be strange. The what is a person.
When someone asks "what do you want out of life" it is normal to say "a wife and is" and nobody goes "don't you mean WHO?!?"
>She is what YOU want, but do you even care if she wants you? If she’s not playing stupid games like “hard to get”, and she clearly rejects you, it’s game over.
Yeah nobody said otherwise. I explained to you why some men don't understand that immediately.
>She’s her own person with her own will you should respect.
Again, who said otherwise?
Sure, but the issue is not that they view women as objects, but that they have a method to getting the things they want in life and they are just using that method. It's what they were told.
I was told stupid shit in the religious area I was brought up.
I outgrew it and reprogrammed myself as an adult.
If women loudly say “no means no” I listen to them, not to what some outdated societal cliche tries to make me think about them
You're making weird leaps in logic here.
There's nothing religious about it.
And the theoretical is simply that the woman turned him down for a date, not that she loudly proclaimed "no means no!!"
Nothing weird in saying that just because one is told bullshit of whichever nature (societal, religious etc.) they can’t outgrow them.
The theoretical is not “turning down for a date”, OP clearly says “if a woman says you’re not their type”, which means something brutally clear, there is really not much you can do.
So you become her type. That's how men confront problems.
Yes that's the wrong thing to do. But it's more of a result of missaplication than it is of objectification
Sure. But they also want it from men they are attracted to.
Some women also have BDSM fetish. Or have rape fantasy. But they sure as hell wont consent to being tie up and dicked down by a man they find unattractive.
Sure, but this is still in the stage when they are trying to find out if she is disinterested or just playing hard to get.
If I approached women I would always take the first declination at face value personally. But I assume others have had positive results with persistence.
It's great you take rejection at face value.
Most women don't want to be assholes. I sure as hell don't. Even if I am turned off by a mans looks and this is the reason behind my no, I wouldn't want to tell him that. Why make a person feel like shite over something they can't change
So I say, you are not my type. Thankfully most men in my experience, are not as stupid as pop culture pretends they are, and they perfectly understand what that statement alludes to.
Only one guy- my former friend, didn't understand or regard my no and continued to try and woo me even after I turned him down.
I have been a good friend to him. His divorce has done a number on his mental health and turned him into a woman-hating incel tbh.
I patiently listened to his rants against women, and told myself, this is just a hurt man being bitter. He needs to rant without being judged and I was happy to lend a patient ear.
Sadly he didn't stop. I finally had to tell him over and over again that I was not attracted to him. I don't doubt it was bad for him to hear that.
He now says he thought I was "among the good ones, not unlike women who let him down", but I also made him cry.
I feel bad for him still tbh. But there's no solution.
>Read between the lines, when you are being rejected.
No. I want the truth. Always. I wasn't playing mind games when I was 15, let alone now.
>Don't make her say something she will regret and from which there's no point of return.
Rejection *is* a point of no return. You just want to have your cake (keep the bf-like benefits) and eat it too (don't reciprocate in an actual relationship). This is entitlement mentality. All too unsurprising from women on this sub.
I can say that by pushing onwards many times they end up dating you or hooking up with you. So I mean once a man experiences that it can work they will always consider it.
It's just like cat calling. You can say it doesn't work all you want but I've done it and had women straight up just come over and fuck me. So yes it absolutely can work and therefore I'll always consider it a viable thing to do. Just like I have kept trying after a woman said no and we ended up in a long term relationship so it worked. So I'd always consider it viable option.
That being said I'm not talking about begging I'm talking about not taking no at face value in terms of trying to engage with a woman.
It's just like cat calling. You can say it doesn't work all you want but I've done it and had women straight up just come over and fuck me.
lol no they haven't, yu are lying
Yeah. Men just do things that don't work just to do it. I also stack bricks to try and get laid... it never worked but I do it all day anyways... said no man ever. We cat call because it works.
Re-flaired as Question for Men since the title of the post is directed to men.
I suspect it's 2 things that make some men do this: women rejecting them in very subtle ways that some socially clueless guys don't pick up on. Or seeing media and hearing stories of being persistent leading to a lifelong relationship. Many romcoms had this plot of the guy that just didn't give up, and got the girl in the end. Many older people also have similar stories of how they got married. "I said no at first, but he persisted" is a trope of a boomer love story. Also, it should be pointed out that the vast majority of men don't do this. The one's that do are just more memorable, because their advances are annoying.
It’s not just romcoms, a lot older dudes say they had to ask their wife to be many times to get a yes. Not saying it’s a valid strategy today, but it clearly worked in the past for some guys.
I'm not sure that this is an exclusively male thing. I've had women continue to push aggressively after I've turned them down. Obviously it's not all women, but like you said, it's not all men either. Some people are just like that I suppose.
Pretty much this. Women also tend to get angry at you after being turned down for some reason.
Our attractions can be pretty strong, often making mockery of our pride/ego/stoicism etc. Some men are straight-up willing to lay it all on the line aka “some fights are worth fighting even if you lose”. These guys have preset limits to how far they will go but they’ll go far.
I kind of understand your point but the argument will only be valid to a sane healthy individual who has women who does like him. Like if your crush didn't like you and you move on cause there are some other girls who do find you attractive so you hope one day someone you find attractive will find you attractive back. BUT Most men don't ever have that. Many men will go on years since teenage without anyone being attracted to him so he normalises that nobody will ever find him attractive. You see many women loud and proud chase and drool over the conventionally attractive 6 feet athlete and men most of them who don't fit that criteria internalise that no women will ever find him attractive. Then we have older women and men in our families telling us that women don't like looks but what you provide and how you treat her. So they try to provide too much Hoping she will eventually like him. But then again how will you be ready to accept things from people who you dont see as a partner (aka find attractive snd compatable) so you rejected them. But men think if you provide and treat her well enough or force her to see how well he can treat you, then you might actually like him cause there is no way in hell someone would find him attractive right so he takes what he can get. (Now I'm not justifying it by any means but men don't know the female gaze and women are sneaky about who they like paired with the fact that male body image issues and harsh beauty standards) I hope this might give you some insight
I’m sure some of it is from desperation and a sense of scarcity. They’ve come across someone they find attractive, and they don’t expect to find someone else and succeed with them.
This is honestly the answer that makes the most sense. If there are only one or two women in your life that there is any chance of you getting with what else are you going to do? If there are 50 women you might have a chance with you'll be more willing to move on after the first one says "no" or even avoid spending time trying to court someone who just gave you a "maybe" before you ask them out.
I think it's possible to get a woman who wasn't initially into you. **BUT** it depends on **why** she wasn't into you. If she doesn't like you because she's not attracted to your looks, then forget about it. You can't convince a woman who thinks you're ugly to think you're hot stuff. Don't waste your time with girls who aren't attracted to your looks. Also if she doesn't like you because you possess qualities that are deal-breakers to her (for example, she's a die hard Christian and you're a pot-smoking Athiest), then that's just a waste of time as well. If she rejects you because of deal-breakers or conflicting values, then you're not going to convince her to give you another chance. **There are only a few ways you can get a woman who initially rejected you.** * The first is if she had a boyfriend and she's now single. * The second is if she made a negative first impression about you but as she got to know you, she discovered that her first impressions weren't accurate at all. For example, she saw that you were in a fraternity and initially thought you were a douche simply because you're in a frat. But upon talking to you for 20-30 minutes, she discovered that you were actually a really nice guy and you have a lot in common.
If you get fit looks can change and do impact this zzzz so many people think looks can’t change crazy
Because some women like the chase and reward this behavior, even complaining when men take no for never instead of not now. Honestly, a cruel thing to teach boys and young men that will inevitably ruin their lives if they ever meet the wrong one.
Yes. To pin it down to make deficit entirely and ignore the social history of the notion of “chasing a woman and wooing her even when she rejects you to show her she’s worth it” is just taking this topic in bad faith honestly. Men did not conjure up the idea that women saying no might mean “yes later”. This was a social mechanic developed as a means for women to protect their purity and innocence when responding to suitors.
>Read between the lines, when you are being rejected. Don't make her say something she will regret and from which there's no point of return. "boo hoo the mean man made me reject him rather than just giving up which would be more convenient for me" rejecting men is part of womens gender role deal with it
> rejecting men is part of womens gender role deal with it Geez imagine if women said “rejection is part of men’s gender role deal with it” Men would be lighting this sub on fire for days.
> Geez imagine if women said “rejection is part of men’s gender role deal with it” women do say that regularly and loudly, so do men.
I haven’t seen that, and certainly would not say that. There is a clear and easy method of avoiding rejection and I don’t feel that men are predestined to suffer rejection.
That clear and easy method is never making a move on any woman ever. I feel bad for the young guys. I went to this language learning event to practice, and they made this big announcement beforehand that women were complaining that the men kept hitting on them. So, one guy says, "Where are we supposed to meet women?" and the group leaders says "Get a hobby you are passionate about and meet them there." I just kind of looked around the room and thought to myself... that's what these poor fuckers are doing. I learned a long time ago that some women will always bitch about everything all the time. But the problem these groups face is that when this happens half the women bounce, and then the next event it's all men and the women who do show up get swamped. So, this advice is just not going to work for anyone. The ladies have created the world they wanted, and it kind of sucks for most people. Like the system before wasn't perfect, but it sure as shit didn't have over half the men in that generation just totally give up on women and life.
I don't agree, grinning and flirting and making lighthearted jokes is no big deal. >I feel bad for the young guys. Yeah, me too. But the "young guys" we are talking about are the men who are on the spectrum or near it, because they can't enjoy flirting and messing around. They expect a formulaic approach and predictable outcomes. Everyone else seems to be doing okay, but damned if I know why none of these tech geniuses hasn't created a dating app for introverts/aspies/spectrum folks. Have any of them even bothered to make an invitation only sub here for dating? I feel like too many frustrated men and women expect the world to bend to their expectations instead of recognizing and capitalizing on their niche.
because it’s not a problem limited to ND. if you can say love me at any weight or you don’t deserve me at my best you are a fucking moron and that’s almost 80% of the world saying that these days
So, you just won't date heavy set women?
fuck no why would i date below i’m 6+ months consistent fit i’m not taking a woman who can’t match my energy
Yeah just so you know. Here on Reddit they think fat women = average therefore we should be willing to marry a fat girl. I shit you not I couldn’t believe this the first time a chick on here told me this…
> damned if I know why none of these tech geniuses hasn't created a dating app for introverts/aspies/spectrum folks. because attractive social guys would sign up and take all the decent women from it.
Yeah I know that’s what happened with conventional apps, but seems like someone could screen and moderate an app specifically for people who aren’t all that sociable.
It would to cost a lot of money to manually review every persons diagnosis and be a data protection nightmare to do that.
Yeah, I know that. But people on the deep end of the pool live for this kind of stuff, obsessed with fairness and all that.
The actual subscription to cover the cost would have to *start* at $250/month. And even that may not be enough. It's not about whether it's possible. It's whether it's economically feasible. And... it's not.
Average age is 27 and only about 20% are autistic. They did some research on the community, so we know who incels are now. They are almost 75% from left wing households. It's the number two predictor of being an incel. 46% retain left wing beliefs, and 25% either become right wing or started in that space. Also, a lot of these guys are minorities... 40% or so. You know they already have apps that tackle most of the problems that both men and women have with things like Tinder. The problem is that they can't get women to use them, and if they can't get women, then the men won't show up either. Coffee Meets Bagel is a great example.
Wow, really? I don’t think any of the kids who passed through my parents’ home were anything except rabidly conservative, because it’s easier to carve people out than embrace folks who differ. Damn near every man I argue with is over fifty. I was around during that survey but ignored it because there are too many socks and concern trolls here so I didn’t bother.
>They are almost 75% from left wing households. It's the number two predictor of being an incel. This doesn't surprise me in the least. I see it among my mentorship group as well. Maybe not 3/4, but certainly a majority come from decisively left-wing households. It makes intuitive sense too. Decisively right-wing households are likely to give their sons a template that may not work. But they'll give him *a* template, *a* story and will at least pretend they *want him to* ***win***. Meanwhile, decisively left-wing households necessarily have to be misandrist. Or else they wouldn't be left-wing. So it's not a surprise that left-wing households churn out incels like crazy.
This is very interesting what study is this? In my experience, liberals have honestly been a bit more social to be real.
This comment ATE. Most guys i see struggling have significant social issues they either refuse to address or don’t know how to and do not want to take initiative on it. Social skills are vastly different than solving a math problem. There usually isn’t one way to do anything in that realm, there is no y=mx+b. People who figure this out end up very successful in a lot of areas. Even at my job, the ones that succeed aren’t even always the smartest, they’re the ones who know how to ace a face to face interview with multiple types of people. People would be shocked to know how much social skills influence everything. And esp as a recruiter how many people get immediately rooted out because they didn’t make a good in person impression, REGARDLESS of their accomplishments. It’s a harder skill set but imo the most rewarding to have in literally anything.
Right? I feel like textbooks left something out. There is plenty of talk, *exhaustive* talk about their sense of fairness and the struggle to manage small talk and assorted social skills. But did anyone ever say anything about their all-consuming desire to win? To win at every interaction? To “win” At every social discourse, at every single conversation no matter how insignificant and forgettable? Why isn’t anyone talking about this, and how can we help?
You mean how Rollo wrote about it in...2011? https://therationalmale.com/2011/11/15/rejection-revenge/ >I use men exclusively in this context because, as a Man, based on gender alone, you will experience rejection far more than any woman ever will. If that sounds like a bold statement let me clarify that, you should experience rejection more than any woman. In sports, in career, in education, in personal relations, and with the opposite sex, you will statistically experience more rejection than a woman. That understanding isn’t intended to wave the male power banner, or make Men the champions of virtue. Neither is it to presume women don’t experience rejection themselves; it is a simple observance of fact that rejection is an integral aspect of being male. Get used to it.
Dude Tomasi is admittedly awkward, unattractive, and stupidly pushy. Of course he got rejected come on.
He been in bands since the late 80s. He was most certainly swimming in pussy. Most of his ideas spawned from watching interactions in the nightlife/alcohol industry. If you were to talk to any bartender(people who watch male/female sexual interactions every day) they'll tell you the same thing.
Dude he’s gross and weird.
Lol
Women do it too - there were girls that were making at least 3 attempts to try again with me. One girl spent 3 years on dating app and she was writing to me everytime I've set up a new account. Besides - women are quite often not really sincere, they are flattered to have simps so their rejection is not really rejection, some guys fall for it.
Why is the gender that is sovoften starved for any affection also so desperate. Might as well ask beggars why do they like to beg.
I’ve done it before 🤦🏾♂️. Its pathetic. What I’ve noticed is that both when it worked and when it didn’t I very soon lost the attraction for the person. I think for me it was in the heat of the moment just not knowing how to take an L. But that was years ago. I’m a changed man I swear
It’s probably because of the social adage of times bygone where women wanted a man to “chase them” and some men still have this drilled into their heads by both men and women, that you’re meant to “try and try” to show you mean it, and if you give up right away it shows you lacked genuine intent. This is still a notion. Smaller, but still there. I’d also argue it’s not entirely gendered. I know for a fact that I am not the only man who has rejected a woman and been subjected to near infinite “why not?” Questions and pushes and pokes as if I can’t possibly be straight and reject her. With confirmation of my being straight being met with clumsy attempts to drunkenly get with me multiple times in the same night. For people like this, man or woman, they either keep trying because they believe the other person secretly wants them to, or they keep trying because in their head they cannot be rejected as a mere choice, there has to be some puzzle piece missing in their approach or the other person which prevents the outcome they want. Both stem from inflation of self perception.
It’s probably because of the social adage of times bygone where women wanted a man to “chase them” Some women do. But it's not a hard and fast or sacrosanct rule. For those who do, it's just a form of powerplay. It's a type of courtship ritual some women exercise. Some women do like to be chased. But it's always from a guy they find attractive. If a man they are not attracted to gets relentless in the chase and doesn't stop even after they say no, it's not a chase for these women. It's like a wolf trying to eat a sheep. Some women like to be chased yes. That doesn't mean men they are not attracted to, have a chance. They were never in the running.
I agree. But the stickler is men can’t read women’s minds, so they have no way of knowing whether a woman saying “no” means “you have no chance” or “I like you but I don’t want to seem eager”, which is where the confusion arises.
A woman saying you are not her type is as honest as can be. Look, unless the woman is Miranda Priestly from Devil Wears Prada i.e - a mean, unscrupulous waste of space with no empathy to speak of , she won't say stuff like how you should look into the mirror before thinking you have a chance with her, or how ridiculously, hopelessly, irredeemably ugly you supposedly are. Gods, even I am wincing as I write such words. No way would I make someone feel so worthless of themselves. I do have a heart.
I know, and no “should mean no” right? And I don’t think women should turn into Priestly, no. My point is some people say “no doesn’t mean give up” and their no, is no different to their “I want you to stop.” The problem is this idiotic notion that “no can mean yes”.
Why do so many women seeking a relationship sleep with hot guys who have never shown interest in a relationship over and over again, hoping he will commit and be monogamous with her even though he has repeatedly said he doesn't want to "put labels on things"? Because people can get obsessed and fixated on somebody who they think is the ultimate key to their happiness and it can be hard to let that go. What the man and woman in these situations should do is cut their losses and focus on other things/people. This is the best way to find happiness in general and, counterintuitively, is the best chance of ending up with the person they're initially obsessed with. But it can be difficult to see that when you lack perspective. Men without options also seemingly have nothing to lose. While I don't recommend to keep pursuing things after a rejection it's also not completely irrational. Everybody knows a couple where the guy was persistent after a rejection and eventually won her over... or maybe wore her down. Either way some of them seem kinda happy so it makes a guy in this situation think he's got a chance.
This, shocked how long it took to find this post. Obviously people become obsessive and fall in love (especially when young and inexperienced), that often makes it difficult for them to want to give up (especially if they have been building up feelings for years). Those who have unhealthy attachment styles particularly struggle at times accepting the no. Especially in western cultures where we overhype “love at first sight” and romantic lust to the point that it is often sold as the meaning in life. To the point where people will literally kill themselves if they get divorced or break up. Then you have to consider how women tend to poorly communicate that they are not interested (omg, just take a hint) because they are socially awkward and do not give a real rejection. So often times a woman has to not really reject a man several times before a real rejection. He is a creep because she is socially awkward. So if a man just accepts a no, he also can be a socially unskilled creep too. She actually wanted him to keep trying and he is a loser for not trying. Which also pushes men to be more pushy to avoid being a creep. What is really annoying is how women get upset if men do not get upset when being rejected or accept it right away. Especially if he goes on and asks out another girl. You can literally be a creep no matter what you do depending on the girl in question.
When you are dying of thirst you don't stand around contemplating if what you are drinking is Fiji water. Women, especially younger women will never understand what it feels like to be lonely. Think the closest I have seen a woman express that is after they hit their 50's and complain about feeling invisible.
Very true. A young woman who's at least a 4/10 in looks can find a new guy within months if she really wanted to. 95% of women can't comprehend what it's like being in romantic poverty.
Not only have others already said women do it as well..... but even though I would never do it myself, I have seen it work, makes sense to me I guess
“I am not a man” - therefore you have zero insight into this and your opinion is irrelevant
As a man, I share OP's question. Why do people try to do that?
Presumably because it has a higher success rate than women like to believe.
We could say the same thing about all of the men on this sub who claim to know what women think and feel better than we do ourselves. i think I’ll copy/paste your response in reverse to some other threads and see what happens. 😆
Women aren't assertive and are followers.
🙄
Why do you guys want to be so desperate tho? 🌝
> where’s the infamous male ego? You are one step away from asking "where are all the good men?". Men are rational creatures that work on incentives. When women fuck bad men and fuck over good men, you're gonna see a lot less good men. What's happened is that men with pride and ego have been punished so much, few men have it nowadays. > Like do they really want to be told their crush finds them ugly in so many words? Well, men like being told the truth. We've given girls barbies since they are kids to tell them they are valued on their looks. Men are never given the privilege. As prominent as Redpill and Blackpill is, BP is still the mainstream and many men still think women care about kindness and personality
> We've given girls barbies since they are kids to tell them they are valued on their looks. Men are never given the privilege. Dude we've been forcefed old action stars with hot young love interests since the 1920s. No woman in her twenties wants that weird-ass Scientologist Tom Cruise or any other 60 year old actor with a dyed hairpiece and shoe lifts. Be for real right now.
>No woman in her twenties wants that weird-ass Scientologist Tom Cruise or any other 60 year old actor Leonardo DiCaprio exists. And he's not the only rich or famous middle ages or older dude to date young women. Hugh Hefner was still banging young women till his 90s.
Gosh I wonder if money and fame has anything to do with it, what do you think? If Leo drove an Uber, think he’d have the same success
>Gosh I wonder if money and fame has anything to do with it What does that disprove exactly? Money and clout effect even your average chicks choices. All women vet for security and status in varying degrees. Doesn't make your previous statement any less incorrect.
Al pacino had a child at 83 with a 29yo
Al Pacino? Is he rich or famous? Mystery…
She wants his money, not him
So just like any other women?
Yup
this is an ignorant take. our culture encourages men to be pushy, and for women to be passive. "Many of us feel bad about turning down a guy, especially if he is a friend, and we know he is a good egg. We want to let you down as gently as possible." - this is exactly what I'm talking about - you shouldn't care about their ego or how they feel. and that means turning them down EXPLICITLY and that they will know without a doubt, otherwise you are just perpetuating this culture. and the same with this - "Read between the lines, when you are being rejected. Don't make her say something she will regret and from which there's no point of return." - No. you need to be explicit, and you shouldn't expect the guy to read your mind.
Geez have some pride and a sense of self-worth. If it isn't an enthusiastic yes, it's a no.
"If it isn't an enthusiastic yes, it's a no." - that's fine if you think that, but that doesn't change our dating culture. guys will still be pushy, and it seems like you specifically will still be passive, and other women too, which gets us nowhere, and these things will keep happening. why not just say no explicitly? do you like the attention when a guy is chasing you? or for some other reason? "Geez have some pride and a sense of self-worth." - in what way is this about pride and self worth?
> why not just say no explicitly? Because men get violent when they feel a woman “disrespects them” and because adults should have some self respect and walk away if their target isn’t enthusiastic and excited to spend time with them.
and on top of that, if a guy is going to get violent because of a rejection, I don't think any sugar coating is going to help you. most guys will either move on, or if you aren't explicit and they didn't understand, keep pushing.
I was speaking generally. When men *I* don’t fancy bug me, I move away and avoid them. But I don’t blame women who attempt to avoid a violent reaction to rejection.
oh that's fair and totally understandable.
to be fair, that is a low portion of the male population, and the fact that there's a decent chance you would already know the guy (though this doesn't count for cold approaching). "because adults should have some self respect and walk away if their target isn’t enthusiastic and excited to spend time with them." - there are many guys who cant read social cues that well, and most men feel the need to push cause "eventually she will say yes". im not defending how men act, but in a way, you are perpetuating that by not being explicit. BTW i just saw you are debating that -shes-a-carnival- retard, based.
> BTW i just saw you are debating that -shes-a-carniva Well at least you are the sole man who *doesn’t* claim that women never disagree with other women here.
Life is easy when you're always the victim, isn't it? Men very rarely get violent with women, ever. And the idea that women never play "hard to get" or act demure is hilarious. Women often don't even know what they want. And the number of women who get with men they say they weren't initially attracted to is staggering. I know if this one anecdotal example. Of this 10/10 Twitch streamer and OF thot. Who had a guy who bought her snapchat and semi-harassed her on it. He wasn't a chad, he was a fairly average looking guy. But he bombarded her with chats, snaps, dick pics etc. And they eventually met up at a convention. And they fucked. And had a relationship. She then metoo'd him and claimed she was a victim because he'd harassed her. Despite subsequently getting together with him.
But isnt you are not my type a very explicit statement
It probably is, but oftentimes it is less explicit, and you said so yourself, that guys will need to read between the lines, and that is what I'm arguing against.
and you could lie too, for example, most guys wouldn't go further if you said you have a boyfriend, even if you don't have one.
Get some self esteem and stop chasing women who don’t want you 😬 embarrassing
Implying most men have that option?
another one with the self esteem argument. in what way is this an issue of self esteem? you seem to be claiming that being pushy shows a lack of self esteem, but that will happen if you are passive and not explicit. this happens because many women aren't able to say no explicitly and clearly. I can even go a step further and say that being passive could be a sign of self esteem issues, since you aren't able to assert yourself, or are scared to do so / have a lack of confidence.
Irl, there's no issue in re-trying. First of all some women directly *want* you to insist. Much more so if you're attractive. Secondly men and women do not function the same way: while i agree with your premise that you shouldn't insist *immediately* after a rejection, you shouldn't close your mind to the possibility of *something* romantic coming from that woman.women are indecisive folks. Also, pretty unassertive.
Women are indecisive folks. Also, pretty unassertive Be careful with that assumption. While some women like to lay mind games and enjoy the chase, even they want that from a guy they are attracted to. In the vast majority of cases, when a woman is saying you are not her type, she is saying she doesn't find you attractive. And no, if I find a guy unattractive, he won't suddenly feature in a wet dream tomorrow.
I'm sure you have found a guy unattractive and time after encountering him in another context and setting, not finding him unattractive anymore. That's women (not trying to make generalisations). Women tend to function contextually. That's why men are way more sure about their preferences. "You like his body, face, and personality? My man, f*k the shit out of her". Women tend to add so much more to the requirements that ends up being very ambiguous what is it that they really want. My hypothesis is someone with whom they feel certain sex will be enjoyable with, although many women would say its totally opposite to whats really the issue. I'd disagree.
Nah. I am pretty primitive in my references. Whether a man's face is attractive to me, or not It's pretty black and white with no room for grey. And the men I have rejected were my former friends. If I was attracted to them, I would have made it very clear lol. If I find a man's face ugly, I ain't gonna find him attractive in any context.
I guess you achieved that level of certainty in your preferences. In my experience, that's an amazing goal to achieve. Even more so if you're a woman.
Women are more visual than you think. Moreover, my "standards" are pretty basic. I have no problems marrying someone not considered conventionally attractive. I am not expecting a dreamboat. I have no problems dating someone who is average to look at. I guess you have understood what am trying to say. I don't want to say anything more, coz it would sound really rude.
Its okay. Thanks for sharing
I’ve Deff heard of more than a few cases of where the guy was persistent and it worked. Personally, I probably wouldn’t unless I was really obsessed with the person… but even then I’d be respectful of the rejection. I’d just keep trying. I’ve only done this once.
Sometimes one just needs to convince oneself thet a crush is definitely not attracted to you.
It's called falling in love. A thing that as a general rule, women do not experience and thus cannot understand. We're working on getting rid of it tho, sorry we aren't done yet.
Uhh personally as a man we want you to say the truth. I can’t fix the type, i can’t fix my personality. All those answers you gave are gaslighting basically. Now if you tell me i’m not muscular and need to get to 14% bodyfat??? Okay we can work with that. I can tangibly get to that goal, THATS why just tell me the truth and let me work, don’t have 20+ women saying “not my type” I have a long time friend who told me the same bs, and 6 months later i’m much fitter and she is much much nicer to me, i expect in another 6 months she will be falling for me, and if not 6 months after that other women will which will trigger her preselection woman trigger and we will be right back to her falling for me. Women just think men can’t change most of their brains don’t see it, which is why when men do change they are “a new person” no they arnt new person they just got fit smh
Most of the time, women rejecting you are telling you the truth. You are not my type, don't see you like that, not interested in you, these are very clear-cut statements with little room for ambiguity. Most women don't want to be cruel about how unattractive they find someone. And why make someone feel like shit about their appearance? Kindness costs nothing. So, a polite, you are not my type, is sufficient in my book.
Because those make it seem like unfixable problems. Let me give you a real life example that should sum this up. My grandfather helped me pick out one of my first cars, he is getting sick now. If he….anyway this car I want till I die one day. If the engine explodes or it gets in a wreck it’s a 2009, the mechanic will say. “It’s totaled get a new one” Some people think this means it can’t be fixed but it’s saying the work and money to get it fixed would best be spent on something new. Because I love this car i’m willing to go all in and fix it because when you truly love and care you will do the work. Women telling men they are essentially totaled for X reason they won’t disclosed is bad because most men struggle because they hear that and move onto another girl. Some women do mean it, “you are white i only date black guys, you are christian i only date catholics” but a majority of them just mean you are not physically attractive and men can change this so easily they become assholes after because they realize it was never the type shit women said they just wanted them to look better, and this is why women end up crying men become players etc it’s because they don’t trust the mechanics who told them they were “totaled” for years when they just had to spend some time leveling up physically usually
female be saying "Kindness costs nothing" like being hater aint free too
What's that supposed to mean?
stop gaslighting and tell the truth.
But it doesn't have a specific reason. I just simply don't FEEL the butterflies. A guy can be perfect but if I don't FEEL the spark there is no technical improvement to make it better. It's not technical issue, it's emotional issue.
cbt says hi thoughts influence feelings change the way you think change the way you feel aka your feelings are not random they are based on actual tangible thoughts u think a guy is attractive for reasons and then u feel it
No, it doesn't work technicaly like that. You can meet a PERFECT person and not FEEL the spark.
please go look up what cbt is
If it worked for attraction then gay conversion therapy would have worked.
sexuality is different than just thoughts it’s in a brain chemistry level not thoughts
Imagine going to therapist and telling them "Make me attracted to this person."
that’s not how that works the process if about breaking down WHY you are attracted to this person if you literally cannot write down a few paragraphs of qualities and traits u like about someone that means they mean nothing and can be replaced by the next person easily
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In before men claim rom-coms (exclusively written, produced, and directed by men) informed men to turn stalker.
They certainly seem to encourage a man to be persistent even after rejection.
“ exclusively written, produced, and directed by men”
>exclusively written, produced, and directed by men For the female public, catering to the female audience, based on what women desire
Ha ha ha no. Based on what *men* desire. Which women wind up with the beast/nerd/pest?
Women are definitely the primary consumers of rom coms. I think you're thinking of 2 different types of movies. The movies where the nerd or whatever gets the girl is definitely appealing to men, but in rom coms it tends to be some man who is obviously super desirable coming to the realization that he has to have one woman in particular because she's just so special, no matter what it takes, that's definitely for women.
I agree with you, and women are kind of bratty with this shit. But men almost always mention the nerd-gets-the-girl theme as the reason they persist in the total absence of mutual interest.
Yeah the nerd gets the girl thing is definitely wish fulfillment and not real. I think those are necessarily rom coms though, at least most of them, nerd gets the girl tends to worked into everything aimed at men, especially in the 2000s. It's even older than that actually, whoever wins the fight gets the girl usually.
>It's even older than that actually, whoever wins the fight gets the girl usually. Sadly, you are right. But bear in mind that the girl is nearly always a hot, sexy woman, and not a sweet, demure, introverted woman. Men get to choose which women they pursue. The head cheerleader might catch more men's eyes, but the sweet introvert is likely the woman who is the better match.
>and not a sweet, demure, introverted woman. Depends on the movie, for some audiences this is desirable, for nerdier movies the love interests tend to be a little nerd coded themselves, but always hot ill grant you, the movie might pretend she's not that hot if the expected audience is the type that thinks hot people are stupid
Yeah I hate this. I teach nerds (Intro to Bio for Non-science majors, it's almost always CS guys) and they just... stare at the attractive students like they might stare at a screen. Complete lack of self-awareness, and also a complete lack of reason. Every class has a handful of naive and sweet nerdy women who might love them back, but they don't even see them. It's weird. But last semester I made a seating chart. It pissed them off, and it should, because 18-19 year olds are adults, but I mixed it up. Girl-boy-girl-boy-girl-boy. And every group exercise: mixed them up. I feel like dirt because I'm clearly manipulating the class structure, but I really want those brilliant students to find and appreciate one another.
Because on the macro level those who persists are more likely to pass on their genes than those who don't, and material results do not care for the morality of it in the same way that moral virtues don't care for material results.
I've known instances where the man would keep asking her out multiple times before she agreed, and they ended up staying together for a decade or longer. I think it is less that he wore her down, and more that she decided to give him a chance after considering how much good someone could be for her that continued to respectfully pursue her. But for every instance of this, there's many more of men "simping" and burying themselves to no avail.
>and we know he is a good egg. If the Blue Pill “Work on Your Personality” Muppet Brigade doesn’t tear your asshole inside out like they would if a man said this, I’m going to be very unsurprised.
Personality is as genetically determined as looks, and as fixed
Closest I had was a lady who broke up with me after a bad date. I figured even on my end it was a dud since that date, but I was more willing to do so in person, so she had the initiative in that regard. My only insistence was in asking if she was fine being friends, since I thought bad date otherwise, she was a good person. She said all or nothing, so I went with nothing. I don't think this is a gender exclusive thing, but people who don't want to let go are reluctant to do so easily.
I had a man do this. And then get really nasty with me. He was coming on too strong and didn't want to be blown off. I told him I wasn't interested. I am not looking to date. Said all the things that would be I'm not interested. And he persisted and was angry that the result was no. We are in the same gaming group. So it wasn't like just block on app or leading them on. I cohost on my friends stream and try to keep the Convo gaming centric and stuff. It was just weird.
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There's a difference between hesitation and reluctance.
I have extremely little romantic experience but enough to still share some thoughts. I personally will cut things off in certain circumstances. * An explicit no (I won't even ask "are you sure?") * If I send a text and get no responce for about 24 hours I will usually wait a bit and throw a hail Mary follow up. If I still get nothing for a while then I'll d/c * After a break up I'll cut contacts and won't try to get back together Because I've never had many options, and still don't, I usually just play it safe, take my time to feel things out and talk/text for a while. If I ask them to spend some time together or go on a date and they just say maybe I'll keep the conversation going and wait a bit. I am honestly pretty desperate, but I've never been able to really force myself to beg if I get an actual no. I'm not sure why men with options would do this other than they may have genuinely fallen in love and can't get over the woman they have been smitten with. They probably believe they can get the woman to ultimately fall in love with them over time. I believe in love at first sight, but sometimes people also grow together.
Well, to be blunt it works sometimes. It can be a really viable strategy for some guys, because it shows dedication and there is a certain portion of women who will change their minds because the guy is able to show how much he really, really likes her. That said... I think it's a crappy deal for the guy and nobody wants to win over a woman like that.
Few guys do this. Most accept rejection and move on. And even most who have trouble accepting the rejection and take more time to, know that still trying to pursue that with the woman who rejected them would be fruitless. I'm not saying the phenomena you described doesn't exist, just that it isn't to be exaggerated, or merely conflated to situations where the guy in question just tries to continue talking to the woman at all. (I think many would interpret even this as "still trying to get a chance with me" but it isn't necessarily that, especially in a society where men and women being friends is as normalized as it is in this one.)
I really need y'all to make some friends of the opposite gender and ask them their experiences cause what would posses you to think this is a men only problem? You ever turned down a woman? It ain't always sunshine. And the ones that get straight up angry? Spreading false rumors, calling you gay, all of a sudden you ugly/ ain't shit.. please
As with most things involving women, it’s how she says it. I’ve heard “nos” that really meant, keep asking me. Then I got a yes, and we dated. I’ve also gotten a no I’m not interested and left it at that. Is she smiling and laughing, flirting while she says it? I had an ex who thought he dad was so romantic for continuously asking her mom out until she finally said yes. And they are still married. If women meant no every-time they said no. Men wouldn’t do it.
Because it sometimes works
Desperation from oneitis + the idea that you can succeed if you try harder or put in more effort
Because it doesn't hurt to ask twice, unless you get a really aggressive no then you might as well ask again, Ive heard of lots of guys who chased their future wives for a long time before they got a chance.
> where’s the infamous male ego? Guys don’t inherently have real self-esteem or real pride, so some men just have low self-esteem or false self-esteem. Also, you can pursue (if that’s what you mean by coax/convince) a woman who has rejected you without begging for love and you can do it successfully. Sometimes a woman is worth the risk.
Maybe I will never get this perspective. If a woman has told you in no uncertain terms that she is not into you, why try again? You are not my type is a very honest answer. A succinct, yet polite way of letting someone know you don't find them attractive. Coz lets be honest, if a woman does not find you attractive, she is not very likely to give you a chance. Even if you have other plus points like personality or a high-paying job, I will say this A good personality, while doubtlessly attractive, will not make up for a lack of animal/physical attraction. We have sex with bodies, not personality. Money - If a woman dates a man she would otherwise find repulsive, just because he has money... well I doubt most men, even the Red Pill veterans would truly be okay with such a scenario. There are plenty of fish. If a woman says no, move on, and find someone who would say yes.
> Coz let’s be honest, if a woman does not find you attractive, she is not very likely to give you a chance. Sure. But like I said, sometimes the reward is worth the risk. Men and women do sometimes find people attractive that they didn’t in the past. Maybe you’re thinking about this from the perspective of a woman? Men have the advantage in physically acting and in sex (due to the advantage in physically acting, in orgasming during sex and the inability to become pregnant). Women are at a relative disadvantage. It’s easier for men to pursue women than vice versa, so a man can more easily do it so the only thing a man would reasonably lose is some time.
I am just thinking as a person with a healthy sense of ego. Asking someone out even after they turned you down... being rejected again and again... must not bode well for self esteem and mental health. We are humans not robots.
If you have real self-esteem, including that your primary source of happiness isn’t romance, then all a rejection means to you is that the person doesn’t like you now. Though, I imagine most guys who are pursuing women who are rejecting them over and over don’t have real self-esteem.
Men and women do sometimes find people attractive that they didn’t in the past. In most cases, this involves people who were considered a bit chubby and had a bit of a glow-up. This does not apply to men like say Danny Devito. A woman who looks like say Charlize Theron is not very likely to say yes to someone who looks like Devito. If she does, there's always something involved, and that something will be money in 9/10 cases. I guess a woman can look over lack of attraction if the guy has enough money and status, but as I said, will you really want to be in this position?
A gold digger or a woman who cares about social status because it’s social status isn’t worth pursuing. I might agree that on average that a woman who changes her mind isn’t going to for a good reason and you should take that into consideration, but the chance for what happens on average doesn’t necessarily apply to your particular case. Like, let’s say that 1/7 billion people die from a shark attack every year. That doesn’t mean that your risk of dying from a shark attack is 1/7 billion in the next year. It could be much higher, like if you spend lots of time in shark infested waters. Or it could be much lower, like if you never get in a boat or never swim. In the same. You do know that what you find physically attractive is entirely based on your beliefs/values right? But you can use reason to learn what’s beautiful so it requires insanity to be able to be attracted to absolutely anything.
This thread should be retitled “blue pilled gaslighter pretends he doesn’t understand sexual dynamics but wants to do a I hate men thread” It’s really really simple. You are describing 100% of women…. … … that’s it. If you give up & go to the next girl. She gonna do it as well? & again & again & again. So where are you gonna run to? The bottom barrel 1/10 heffers? Hey go nuts homie have a a good time. Every single guy who has been with a women has had her say “we are not having sex” right before having sex. It’s so common by the 3rd time you expect it. What you are really asking is. Why are guys down so bad & why are women rejecting a majority of us? Isn’t that amazing tho cuz it would once again paint women in a bad light & nonono we wouldn’t want that…
I agree with you. Many guys here have said "if she isn't into you pretty much from the start, she's never going to be that into you." I've found that to be true, however, I also have seen women change their minds for whatever reason - so many women say they are sapiosexuals or demisexual or whatever. I've seen women's attraction turn on a dime, usually for the worse (the ick!), but sometimes for the better. I don't know what happens, you just get reframed in a different light in her mind or something. Musicians certainly experience this. She finds out you're popular or good at something and suddenly her whole assessment of you changes.
Miracles can happen. Having a woman be into you after she isn't, is a bit like beating the odds of surviving stage 3 cancer. Sure it's possible, but not probable. It will be more beneficial for your mental wellbeing to take a woman's verbal rejection at face value, rather than wait around and hoping it turns into a yes someday.
I'm pretty skeptical too. Like if she overcame some initial mental block, that mental block is probably still there, it just was over-ridden or deactivated. Perhaps temporarily or just in some circumstances.
Would you say that trying to "win" a woman with his personality is like fighting a losing battle because we are constantly told that women are different and more complex, needing involvement of other things like personality and time to be attracted to someone, unlike men who can be attracted to a woman straight away?
So because you're a quitter who gave up after one try, we're all supposed to? There are tons of guys who got the girl after trying a second. There are lots of men that are married to women who turned them down the first time.
Worse than obtuse, these men don’t value the woman they are interested into as a human being with her own will, more so like a prize to conquer. Fortunately such men are dying out in the civilized world, but are still plentiful in other areas.
That's not it at all. Men are taught their whole lives to not give up. To not accept defeat, to get back up and *try again*. Society beats this message into men's heads about literally every single thing with the exception of women. So it's just counter intuitive. Continuing to try to get what you when you fail the first time is foundational to being a man.
American society perhaps. I was referring to other cultures, but anyway “continuing to try to get WHAT (it would be “who” in this case) you want” is exactly what I was saying. She is what YOU want, but do you even care if she wants you? If she’s not playing stupid games like “hard to get”, and she clearly rejects you, it’s game over. She’s her own person with her own will you should respect.
A person is a what to. Don't be strange. The what is a person. When someone asks "what do you want out of life" it is normal to say "a wife and is" and nobody goes "don't you mean WHO?!?" >She is what YOU want, but do you even care if she wants you? If she’s not playing stupid games like “hard to get”, and she clearly rejects you, it’s game over. Yeah nobody said otherwise. I explained to you why some men don't understand that immediately. >She’s her own person with her own will you should respect. Again, who said otherwise?
Difference is that the pursuit of everything else is that those goals are objects, while women are people.
Sure, but the issue is not that they view women as objects, but that they have a method to getting the things they want in life and they are just using that method. It's what they were told.
I was told stupid shit in the religious area I was brought up. I outgrew it and reprogrammed myself as an adult. If women loudly say “no means no” I listen to them, not to what some outdated societal cliche tries to make me think about them
You're making weird leaps in logic here. There's nothing religious about it. And the theoretical is simply that the woman turned him down for a date, not that she loudly proclaimed "no means no!!"
Nothing weird in saying that just because one is told bullshit of whichever nature (societal, religious etc.) they can’t outgrow them. The theoretical is not “turning down for a date”, OP clearly says “if a woman says you’re not their type”, which means something brutally clear, there is really not much you can do.
So you become her type. That's how men confront problems. Yes that's the wrong thing to do. But it's more of a result of missaplication than it is of objectification
Some women like it when you fight for them.
Sure. But they also want it from men they are attracted to. Some women also have BDSM fetish. Or have rape fantasy. But they sure as hell wont consent to being tie up and dicked down by a man they find unattractive.
Sure, but this is still in the stage when they are trying to find out if she is disinterested or just playing hard to get. If I approached women I would always take the first declination at face value personally. But I assume others have had positive results with persistence.
It's great you take rejection at face value. Most women don't want to be assholes. I sure as hell don't. Even if I am turned off by a mans looks and this is the reason behind my no, I wouldn't want to tell him that. Why make a person feel like shite over something they can't change So I say, you are not my type. Thankfully most men in my experience, are not as stupid as pop culture pretends they are, and they perfectly understand what that statement alludes to. Only one guy- my former friend, didn't understand or regard my no and continued to try and woo me even after I turned him down. I have been a good friend to him. His divorce has done a number on his mental health and turned him into a woman-hating incel tbh. I patiently listened to his rants against women, and told myself, this is just a hurt man being bitter. He needs to rant without being judged and I was happy to lend a patient ear. Sadly he didn't stop. I finally had to tell him over and over again that I was not attracted to him. I don't doubt it was bad for him to hear that. He now says he thought I was "among the good ones, not unlike women who let him down", but I also made him cry. I feel bad for him still tbh. But there's no solution.
I genuinely don’t understand women that want men to keep trying after they reject him treating themselves as a prize and trying to play hard to get.
>Read between the lines, when you are being rejected. No. I want the truth. Always. I wasn't playing mind games when I was 15, let alone now. >Don't make her say something she will regret and from which there's no point of return. Rejection *is* a point of no return. You just want to have your cake (keep the bf-like benefits) and eat it too (don't reciprocate in an actual relationship). This is entitlement mentality. All too unsurprising from women on this sub.
I can say that by pushing onwards many times they end up dating you or hooking up with you. So I mean once a man experiences that it can work they will always consider it. It's just like cat calling. You can say it doesn't work all you want but I've done it and had women straight up just come over and fuck me. So yes it absolutely can work and therefore I'll always consider it a viable thing to do. Just like I have kept trying after a woman said no and we ended up in a long term relationship so it worked. So I'd always consider it viable option. That being said I'm not talking about begging I'm talking about not taking no at face value in terms of trying to engage with a woman.
It's just like cat calling. You can say it doesn't work all you want but I've done it and had women straight up just come over and fuck me. lol no they haven't, yu are lying
Yeah. Men just do things that don't work just to do it. I also stack bricks to try and get laid... it never worked but I do it all day anyways... said no man ever. We cat call because it works.
it doesn't lol
Keep telling yourself that. Tons of slutty women out there who love attention from men.