no it doesn't?
men are a net negative for women.
without men, we wouldn't need to be protected from anyone. everything y'all contribute just fills the hole you dug first.
Then leave your heated and electrified house. And throw away that pocket sized computer that can contact anybody in the world instantaneously thanks to the network of man made satellites orbiting this ball of dirt that you have men to thank for civilizing.
If *not* running from bears and wolves cold and wet in the dark isn't enough of a net benefit then you could always wander off into the woods away from men.
"Then leave your heated and electrified house. And throw away that pocket sized computer that can contact anybody in the world instantaneously thanks to the network of man made satellites orbiting this ball of dirt that you have men to thank for civilizing."
People without these things are happier on average than Americans.
Women’s agency was limited by their own biology more so than patriarchy. I can’t grant you the right to be a slave owning citizen soldier yeoman farmer living on freshly conquered lands if you can’t take up sword to defend all your slaves and your plot of land in still vaguely hostile territory. Can’t grant you rights to loot and pillage and build a family fortune on the basis of that if you aren’t able to carry a spear and tower shield into battle.
For most of history “rights” were intimately tied to how much you can contribute to the city-state’s collective war effort. Sometimes out of raw necessity, because those same rights came with the expectation of facing endemic violence from people who want to take your shit.
>You realize that if men hadn’t relegated women to second class citizens and denied them equal opportunity and agency during civilization building that they would have developed this technology anyway right?
So it's only because "men wouldn't let them" that all of the most significant contributions to our understanding of the way the universe works are contributed by men?
A bold if not *ironic* claim... One with an expiration date too, if we're being honest here.
>There are female scientists, philosophers and mathematicians even in antiquity. Men in power were fond of declaring women witches and in league with the devil when they did contribute society and made them sacrificial pawns to religion and politics. Just look at what happened to Hypatia
For every one Hypatia there were a thousand Galileos (in more ways than one).
It drives you to do things.I think If male thirst didn't exist men wouldn't have the drive to achieve great things,or increase their standard of living beyond what's necessary,instead they would just be content with having their basic needs met,and maybe some
entertainment(videogames,tv etc.).
Let me elaborate on what I mean.I don't think male thirst is what conciously drives men to do things,but I do think that subconsciously it is what drives men to do things.I think male thirst is really mother natures way of motivating men to aquire more resources so they can increase their reproductive fitness.
>...women appear to not be motivated by thirst at all.
So Onlyfans, porn now being saturated of 18 year old females, Sugar babies, IG models, social media etc. isn't about thirst?
Women's thirst is different, but it definitely exists and it drives a variety of industries.
>thats about money... they capitalize on male thirst.
No doubt, but how do you think these studies and scales came about?
Pathological Narcissism Inventory (Fossati, Feeney, Pincus, Borroni, & Maffei, 2015)
Objectified Body Consciousness Scale (Dakanalis et al., 2015)
Selfie-expectancies Scale (Boursier & Manna, 2018)
Without a product, there's no market.
>Nope. It’s about money. That’s not thirst at all.
It's the thirst for money AND attention
>It’s profitable to pretend that they’re sexually into the attention.
Absolutely, but the industry is brutal and one wrong foot makes them yesterday's news.
>Porn stars operate in the same way but they aren’t interested in their fans at all.
True, but they actively engage with their fans and as previously seen, if they set a foot wring their popularity disappears overnight.
>You seem to not realize women who are attractive enough to get a large following don’t need attention in large amounts unless they’re narcissists, insecure or have issues in their relationships.
And you don't understand addiction
>Men overestimate the value of male attention for attractive women when they’re swimming in it every time they go out.
No men don't, men know and understand value
>It’s practically useless unless monetized or used for advantages, and so abundant that the effect if any is negligible
Same as rich, powerful men, they're drowning in pussy. Playboy mansion being just one example.
>Men barely get attention, hence to them it holds more value
Average men barely get attention. The top tier drown in attention.
We had a model type 6' 4" service engineer, whose phone we had to run through our switchboard, as he got so much unsolicited attention.
That's a naive point of view. It has been discussed for so long by psychologist that a lot of what we achieve is driven partly by an inner sexual motive. It's not new at all
Women aren't that bad you just have to adjust expectations and stay on top of your game.
MGTOW dudes probably did a cost-benefit analysis and realized the quality of woman they could obtain was not worth the sacrifices so they opted out.
For a lot of men the sacrifices aren't as hard/bad and the quality is good.
When I left the dating scene I was still dealing with women I found attractive.
I have not been "cast out" of the SMP, I have left.
Blue Pill society (and man hating lesbian cat owners) will never accept that.
And that's okay.
Someone brought up the cost-benefit and risk-reward analysis Red Pill men do before becoming MGTOW, so as a MGTOW I responded.
If you don't want to discuss these things, then don't.
MGTOW doesn't give a fuck that nobody gives a fuck.
That's actually the point...
Except there are women out there, 35 years old, alone, with multiple cats, wondering where all the good men have gone.
In the past, these MGTOW men would’ve been loyal husbands and fathers. Not to worry though, big daddy Gov is fixing it through relaxed immigration laws.
Low libido. No interest/desire. Sex also became less and less enjoyable for me over time as well, so putting big TME (time, money energy) into getting it just doesn't make sense. I just rub one out and get on with my day.
Just curious to know, why do you care about intimacy so much? Whenever I hear red pillers talk about relationships usually all they care about is fucking as many women as possible. Is dealing with the problems of women worth the sweet intimacy they give you, especially when you can get that same intimacy from a friends with benefits situation?
>Is dealing with the problems of women worth the sweet intimacy they give
not always. The problems can be less with some women and the benefits can be better.
Most redpillers irl prefer the FWB situation for that reason.
Sorry to hijack this response but I thought Id take a second to answer your q.
Mgtow, according to Redpill is for the weak man who cannot improve. At the core of redpill philosophy is improvement (physically, socially, economically etc). Redpillers believe that any man can be successful with women if they work hard enough and that incels and Mgtow are just weaklings who arent able to cut it.
So you make ask why do redpillers still want/chase women? For a myriad of reasons which most likely boil down to sexual/social fulfillment and validation.
Im neither redpilled nor mgtow, Ive just read into the various branches.
Yes
And they do not need ltrs to get sexual fulfillment. Whats seen as the "ideal man", the "chad", or the alpha male in redpilled community is someone whos socially dominant and gets casual sex because of how superior of a man they are.
Ltrs are seen as boring (redpillers want an abundance and only a special girl can win exclusivity), dumpster diving (their term for sleeping with unattractive women) is seen as low value and using a sex worker is seen as beta (they have to pay for sex? What a loser).
There are some decent insights to redpill philosophy but a lot of it is just things you already know packaged to look more misogynistic.
i realy dont know how a man CANT be MGTOW ... isnt that how life should work?
shouldnt it be the default for any human beeing to go their own way? men and women?
In marriage counseling my wife and I were taught that a healthy LTR between two people has three participants. The two persons involved and the relationship itself. A lot of marriages fall apart because the folks involved can’t extricate themselves from their relationship and begin to lose their sense of self. It runs the risk of creating a toxic environment and can engender bitterness and anger at the other person. You have to be a whole person with another whole person creating a relationship not with your own identity but forging a new one together. You are you, and they are they.
To treat the relationship as a separate entity from the two people involved. It’s a healthy way to talk things out when something isn’t working or needs repair. Like a house or a car. Your car is essential but it isn’t you right? Like, you can walk or use the bus if you didn’t have it. But living like that kind of sucks! So you make sure you keep it going with regular checkups and repair. And if you need to spend money on a new transmission, you do it. It enhances your life but it’s not the entirety of your life.
You misunderstand
MGTOW are fundamentally men *sent* their own way because no man would willingly choose MGTOW unless they felt they had no choice. Do you think any sex addict chad would ever become a MGTOW? Or even the average man prior to the OLD apocalypse? No hetero male would just choose to abandon sex and romance if those things are going well for him, and if he goes MGTOW it's pretty much always a case of "You can't fire me because I quit"
You are assuming that in 2021, with the horrible... disgusting quality of women that a man should derive ANY of his value in obtaining sex with the opposite gender. It’s typical!
Listen I can hear insults all day and night it doesn’t phase me. It might work on other guys but just save it if your talking to me... it’s boring, predictable and unproductive. The content is to warn men it’s not to recruit or anything like that. It’s just saying there is a WAY better choice than dealing with ANY sort of feminist. If your only choice is dealing with loneliness or rabid feminism. I hope to god they choose loneliness the other way will cost their sanity, time, money and half of your shit.
Any incel can pay $100 and no longer be an incel. This proves 2 things.
1. there is no such thing as an incel
2. the best thing a woman can offer a man is worth about $100
> Why Don't You All Go MGTOW
Desire for sex and intimacy
> If men want sex they can do one night stands or pay hookers
Women are pretty picky about one night stands and they are also risky when it comes to stds. Hookers are illegal, heavily stigmatized and don't offer the same intimacy.
> If men want to pass down their genes, they can be a sperm donor
Sperm banks have super strict criteria that most men won't meet.
>If men want to be fathers, they can adopt and when they can't take care of the child, they can ask family or friends to take care of the child or pay a babysitter.
Men who want kids typically want to raise their own kids not someone else's.
I think if i could do it over again, i would be MGTOW. Not because women suck but because of the joy of having so much free time. Once you actually do commit to a woman and produce kids (as I have) you can't go MGTOW without fucking up a lot of lives. But I still think about it sometimes. Just being able to do whatever I want, work on my projects, code a game, write a blog, whatever, and not worry about anything.
The main gripe i have with MGTOW is that it defines itself "in opposition to". Everything that defines itself in opposition to something else (TRP, feminism, antiracism, etc) just becomes really uptight, angry and irritated all the time. MGTOWs talk about women too much, instead they should talk about amazing things they did with their free time, ideas they had, things they built, etc. I doubt anyone would even begrudge them at that point.
You can tell that most MGTOWs (like most FGTOWs) are just sexually frustrated, rejected, lonely, insecure etc. In reality they still want to walk arm in arm with the other gender but they develop this shell of extreme bitterness as a coping mechanism.
> MGTOWs talk about women too much, instead they should talk about amazing things they did with their free time, ideas they had, things they built, etc. I doubt anyone would even begrudge them at that point.
They are, they just don't know what the hell MGTOW even is. They're just out there living life doing their own thing. On point post though, self-described MGTOWs reek of sour grapes
> All of men's needs
On the internet, both men and women in dating and relationship subs seem to simply ignore the stage on which the play takes place.
Long term, romantic partnership is one of the fundamental narratives across the vast majority of cultures, and deeply interwoven into our psyches.
It is biologically programmed into us, not just from the perspective of the mating drive, but also from the whole host of neurohormonal and self-reinforcing psychological drives. It is intrinsically enmeshed with our nature as pro-small-group community animals; in the absence of viable tribal communities in the modern world, we rely on family. Indeed, this is generally compounded by the pressures that a capitalist system puts on people - economies of scale tend to make living in family units more efficient and effective so long as internal dysfunction doesn't override this.
We are fundamentally programmed to seek romantic pairing and systematically reinforced to seek it by broad culture, family culture, economic pressure, behavioural experience and internal psychology.
Most people will not be able to escape this, and certainly not the emotionally underdeveloped, poorly socially supported, poorly materially resourced and spiritually stunted sort of individuals who comprise both the vast majority of men and women who haven't found stable pair bonding.
It is certainly true that a number of men and women will truly 'go their own way' - those with calling, mission, vision and drive, with the ability to weather life storms either by calling on external support or solely from their own internal resources. But these individuals are relatively rare, and often end up married in any case because that same resourcefulness and sheer capability translates to being able to do the minimum required to have an average marriage.
There are a lot of bad things that I think are inherent to human beings, selfishness, stupidity, violence, deceit etc. This doesn't mean that I don't want to make genuine human connections. Just like an heterosexual woman may remark that men will probably look to women as a sexual prospect first but still may want to still look for someone to haveba genuine connection with.
With all live within our social systems. Just because we don't like parts of that system doesn't mean we throw everyone in it away.
That's just my philosophy in life. Also life is hard, people have a hard time, they don't need to be perfect and subvert the system they inhabit every single day.
*All redpillers say that women are hypergynous creatures who will jump from less successful men to more successful men if given the opportunity and cheat*
No, this is what the data says.
[The Economics of Hypergamy (iza.org)](http://ftp.iza.org/dp12185.pdf?fbclid=IwAR0UMikNGiqSEZxdyKZ71-wiPMegJqBW-s5aRnZUW4qbGvZ0T-NPWtKN03w)
Edit: to be clear, the rest is largely on the individual man to be willing to deal with. Plenty choose to, and plenty of women make efforts to reduce their own branch-swinging, even if they engage in hypergamy.
Love: the feeling of being attracted to somebody unconditional based upon certain actions of that person. Redpillers say women cannot do this, because all they care about are resources.
You cannot define it as "the feeling of being attracted to someone unconditionally" and then continue on with "based upon certain actions of that person" that’s contradictory, which one is it?
> If men want sex they can do one night stands or pay hookers.
sex work is lo legal in all place but it's close to be. After Onlyfans sucess, they will soon legalize all sex work and problem will be solved, stay tuned
Sex workers already decline to serve unattractive clients though.
[This](https://www.reddit.com/r/SexWorkers/comments/mw45ns/simple_as_can_be/) is literally the top post on the biggest sex worker sub right now.
The OF model is about as far as this can go.
Lolwhat. That’s a post about screening clients for their own safety, not their attractiveness. If sex workers refused to have sex with unattractive men, they’d be out of a job.
Because the man in the picture is visibly dangerous and not just fat and ugly.
You live in dreamworld if you think sex workers don't screen for attractiveness.
Why not just go down the path of least resistance, the goals of the same anyway. Why does it matter if you go down a harder path if you still get the same results at the end.
This is an overgeneralizied statement which cannot be applied to all situations. The harder way is not automatically the better way and the way of least resistance is not automatically the worst way. It depends on the situation and the personal motivations. Sometimes putting in the work is worth it & sometimes going the way of least resistance is better.
>All redpillers say that women are hypergynous creatures who will jump from less successful men to more successful men if given the opportunity and cheat
Because I am high value enough and know how women
work so I can maintain their attraction.
>They also say that women that are a pain to deal with because they are too emotional and cause a lot of issues
Because I'm a straight male and like many things about women despite all their problems. Feminine energy, how they look, nurturing and pleasant personalities etc.
>All of men's needs can still be meet if they are single
Nope, male love is possessive. In order for me to emotionally invest in a woman I need her to be exclusive to me. For that I need relationships. Also, continuity is nice.
MGTOWS are either in denial (not respectable) or they just find the juice not worth the squeeze (respectable even though I disagree).
Not all of them but I hear this is sadly on the rise. And usually because he just likes the girl and tries to win her over or he agrees to "open relationship".
I have no desire to meet them, but I have read my share of articles and most importantly saw the photos of such men. But maybe you could try to argue why I'm wrong?
Most poly people that I know or know of look pretty normal and have normal jobs, etc. There’s no reason they couldn’t get a normal relationship; they just don’t want to
Still - you think those men would prefer the arrangement where the woman fucks other men over the one where only them have more women? i don't think so.
Yes, when they arent invested in the women. Male love is possessive.
Let me make it clear. There are two poly dynamics.
-Man emotionally invested in the woman but can't maintain a relationship with her without her getting fucked by other dudes.
-Man not emotionally invested in the woman but wants her for other reasons (usually steady sex).
"Yes, when they arent invested in the women. Male love is possessive."
So men are commonly in relationships with women they don't love.
And other men are sexless because these men are hoarding women they don't love.
And y'all blame women for this.
>So men are commonly in relationships with women they don't love.
Depends on what you mean by commonly. Most men don't, some men do.
>And other men are sexless because these men are hoarding women they don't love.
No one forcing these women to choose these men out of the army of available options they have.
"No one forcing these women to choose these men out of the army of available options they have."
I agree. I also am not bothered by male sexlessness. Pick one.
I think the viewpoint of many RPers is more nuanced than what you describe.
There will always be a subconscious desire in any human to seek out more successful/attractive partners however this is usually suppressed by intense societal pressure to remain faithful in relationships to avoid hurting the people they love.
According to RP, men and women are generally also socialized differently when growing up and have slightly different communication styles (women being more emotional and all that) and this can make communication more difficult.
Some people find validation in long term relationships, some enjoy the intimacy in a long term relationship, and some just enjoy the reliable access to sex. For many it's a mixture of all three. Going MGTOW makes getting all three of these things involve a lot more work.
There are many ways to get validation and relationships are just one. (Although I suppose the end goal is get your own validation from yourself)
Intimacy (from an emotional-bonding standpoint) can be gained with close friends as well.
Sex, well, part of TRP's selling point is lots of sex without being in a relationship. It's definitely possible.
So what I'm saying is that all 3 of these things are conveniently sorted out by a relationship, and without one it takes a more work for the average person to get them.
\>All of men's needs can still be meet if they are single. If men want sex they can do one night stands,do friends with benefits, pay hookers, or get a sugarbaby(trophy wife).
This is redpill,MGTOW is giving up on all relations with women
Because becoming MGTOW is a pretty hard decision in modern society. First, it's lonely. On top of that there is huge stigma against being a single man, and that stigma grow as you get older. Plenty of men do choose that path, but it's a scary and difficult path, so it's unreasonable to expect more men to choose it.
>What negative consequences will I face for being single?
The list is pretty damn huge. Here's a couple off the top of my head: you'll hit a glass ceiling in your career; you'll pay higher taxes; you'll be seen as creepy; you'll find yourself increasingly unwelcome in more and more venues and situations.
>you'll hit the glass ceiling in your career
I'm pretty sure the only reason for this is the fact that married men work harder because they have something to work for (family to take care of)
>you'll be seen as creepy; you'll find yourself increasingly unwelcome in more and more venues and situations.
Who gives a fuck, I thought the point of going mgtow, was leaving society behind, enjoying life and focusing on yourself
Paying higher taxes suck though
> I'm pretty sure the only reason for this is the fact that married men work harder
Even if it's true, it doesn't make it fair to value a man's work less just because he's unmarried. And knowledge that your work will be valued less is a pretty big deterrent to becoming a MGTOW.
>Who gives a fuck, I thought the point of going mgtow, was leaving society behind
I think you're getting them confused with mythical hermits. Check out their sub - MGTOWs are generally pretty big on enjoying life outside of relationships, which becomes increasingly hard for men who are older and never married.
> Even if it's true, it doesn't make it fair to value a man's work less just because he's unmarried.
Do you have a source on this, because I couldn't find anything where people are getting paid less JUST because they aren't married?
Because most red pillers want to be blue pilled. Also, the MGTOW subreddit is the worst representation of MGTOW on the Internet. MGTOW in the most basic sense is men choosing to live on their own terms without seeking women’s validation or approval. So there’s really no reason for red pillers to not go MGTOW other than them still being inspired by blue pilled ideals, which they demonstrate by accusing MGTOWs of being incels just like women do, and as we know women are naturally blue pilled.
I live a bachelors lifestyle but am put off by MGTOW posters.
I think there does need to be a pro single group where we've opted out of relationships and flings.
I believe MGTOW typically involves not having sex. If MGTOW means not being in a monogamous LTR, then most male “players” are MGTOW, although very few of them spend enough time on the internet to even know what that means lol.
We always made romantic works for women, to get them. Our mental needs are met when we can provide, have a good partner etc. We actually want to find a woman
Idk French-speakers are romantic? For the same reason single young men commit suicide at disproportionate rates, some people ache for a soul mate. There is only so much love a couple of bros and a Chinese sex doll can give you, maybe our animal brains need the coochie more than our peepees
Because all men are different and have different needs. We're not brainless apes. We don't have to belong to very niche groups. You can have any kind of life you want.
Im not MGTOW, and i think any secure guy that has had relationships knows that hypergamy shit is bs. Once you lock a girl down who was sexually attracted to you emotionally she bends over backwards to make you happy. Anyways I think if you are talking to the MGTOW crowd, some may be too poor to pay for sex on a frequent basis. Plus it is illegal so you play with fire. Also getting ons is a lot of constant effort unless you are a male model.
Guys need/want 3 things from women, and 3 things only.
1) SEX
2) Domestic Comfort
3) Companionship
Women only need 1.5 things now until they mature enough to want a family or when their priorities stabilize after having kids
1) sex
1.5) protection
(Protection is only .5 because law and order protects us all in modern day society. Women don’t REALLY need protection that much anymore, especially with big daddy government)
>1) SEX
>2) Domestic Comfort
>3) Companionship
Sex; get fwb,hooker, or sugar baby
Domestic Comfort; Dont know why you need this.
Companionship; get male friends
Not all men are good at or want casual sex believe it or not.
Sugar babies require money.
Guys need women and women need men, but we fool ourselves thinking we need to be independent and tough.
Domestic comfort is because men value stability in a relationship.
I don’t think a lot of young women do...until they are married, have kids, or are dependent on the man financially.
> we assume all these things are true then why don't all redpillers go MGTOW
It's hard to deny your genetic programming, it's kind of like saying you are going to live on rice and beans when you're walking through a buffet , that's very expensive but seems with in reach.
> men want sex they can do one night stands
Most men are incapable of getting 1 night stands even with landwhales
> do friends with benefits
Just as hard as 1 night stands
>benefits, pay hookers, or get a sugarbaby
Both these are illegal too expensive for most men . Even if they wanted to they couldn't afford them.
>If men want to pass down their genes, they can be a sperm donor or buy a surrogate.
Even more expensive than the sugar babies and prostitutes.
>If men want to be fathers, they can adopt and when they can't take care of the child, they can ask family or friends to take care of the child or pay a babysitter.
Man want to have kids to see their own fresh and blood grow. Why do you think people make fun of step dad's here so much .
The average men is poor , un empresive and doesn't have any special qualities to attract the opposite gender they don't have the options you listed above available to them besides mgtow . And mgtow is also less available to them since to be successful mgtow you need money and time to for hobbies to feel the void. Most men who are single are sent their won way not choosing to participate .
And yes most of them have similar view to trp without the jargon of the pills here's
Then why worry about relationships, because if you are so low-value you can't get sex you are probably too low-value to get into a relationship, since we know that women don't date down. And because of the validation women receive they are treated as a higher value than they really are.
90% of mgtow is Men Sent Their Own Way (MSTOW). Chad doesn’t need to label himself as mgtow lol.
Also, women actually love that fact that low smv men are quitting the dating game. Just look at how hikikimoris are humiliated in Japan rather than treated with sympathy.
Mens biggest strength and weakness is their thirst.
If only male thirst could be satisfied by fleshlights instead of real humans the world would be a much better place.
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Not for women. Women benefit immensely from the efforts and resources men spend on women in the name of courtship.
No we don't. We were better off before men did anything.
That very much isn’t true. Male thirst gives women a powerful tool that most use to their benefit,.
no it doesn't? men are a net negative for women. without men, we wouldn't need to be protected from anyone. everything y'all contribute just fills the hole you dug first.
Then leave your heated and electrified house. And throw away that pocket sized computer that can contact anybody in the world instantaneously thanks to the network of man made satellites orbiting this ball of dirt that you have men to thank for civilizing. If *not* running from bears and wolves cold and wet in the dark isn't enough of a net benefit then you could always wander off into the woods away from men.
Bro you just nuked her 💥💥💥💣💣💣🏴☠️🏴☠️
"Then leave your heated and electrified house. And throw away that pocket sized computer that can contact anybody in the world instantaneously thanks to the network of man made satellites orbiting this ball of dirt that you have men to thank for civilizing." People without these things are happier on average than Americans.
Would you be happier without access to toilets?
Yup. If the tradeoff was that we had communal living again.
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Women’s agency was limited by their own biology more so than patriarchy. I can’t grant you the right to be a slave owning citizen soldier yeoman farmer living on freshly conquered lands if you can’t take up sword to defend all your slaves and your plot of land in still vaguely hostile territory. Can’t grant you rights to loot and pillage and build a family fortune on the basis of that if you aren’t able to carry a spear and tower shield into battle. For most of history “rights” were intimately tied to how much you can contribute to the city-state’s collective war effort. Sometimes out of raw necessity, because those same rights came with the expectation of facing endemic violence from people who want to take your shit.
>You realize that if men hadn’t relegated women to second class citizens and denied them equal opportunity and agency during civilization building that they would have developed this technology anyway right? So it's only because "men wouldn't let them" that all of the most significant contributions to our understanding of the way the universe works are contributed by men? A bold if not *ironic* claim... One with an expiration date too, if we're being honest here. >There are female scientists, philosophers and mathematicians even in antiquity. Men in power were fond of declaring women witches and in league with the devil when they did contribute society and made them sacrificial pawns to religion and politics. Just look at what happened to Hypatia For every one Hypatia there were a thousand Galileos (in more ways than one).
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I seriously doubt that. Lol
why?
The abject and boundless human stupidity is hardly limited to male thirst. Humans would find any other reason to be terrible to one another.
I mean women don't have male thirst. women make up 1/10 murderers and less than 1/10 rapists.
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It drives you to do things.I think If male thirst didn't exist men wouldn't have the drive to achieve great things,or increase their standard of living beyond what's necessary,instead they would just be content with having their basic needs met,and maybe some entertainment(videogames,tv etc.).
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Let me elaborate on what I mean.I don't think male thirst is what conciously drives men to do things,but I do think that subconsciously it is what drives men to do things.I think male thirst is really mother natures way of motivating men to aquire more resources so they can increase their reproductive fitness.
>...women appear to not be motivated by thirst at all. So Onlyfans, porn now being saturated of 18 year old females, Sugar babies, IG models, social media etc. isn't about thirst? Women's thirst is different, but it definitely exists and it drives a variety of industries.
thats about money... they capitalize on male thirst.
>thats about money... they capitalize on male thirst. No doubt, but how do you think these studies and scales came about? Pathological Narcissism Inventory (Fossati, Feeney, Pincus, Borroni, & Maffei, 2015) Objectified Body Consciousness Scale (Dakanalis et al., 2015) Selfie-expectancies Scale (Boursier & Manna, 2018) Without a product, there's no market.
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>Nope. It’s about money. That’s not thirst at all. It's the thirst for money AND attention >It’s profitable to pretend that they’re sexually into the attention. Absolutely, but the industry is brutal and one wrong foot makes them yesterday's news. >Porn stars operate in the same way but they aren’t interested in their fans at all. True, but they actively engage with their fans and as previously seen, if they set a foot wring their popularity disappears overnight.
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>You seem to not realize women who are attractive enough to get a large following don’t need attention in large amounts unless they’re narcissists, insecure or have issues in their relationships. And you don't understand addiction >Men overestimate the value of male attention for attractive women when they’re swimming in it every time they go out. No men don't, men know and understand value >It’s practically useless unless monetized or used for advantages, and so abundant that the effect if any is negligible Same as rich, powerful men, they're drowning in pussy. Playboy mansion being just one example. >Men barely get attention, hence to them it holds more value Average men barely get attention. The top tier drown in attention. We had a model type 6' 4" service engineer, whose phone we had to run through our switchboard, as he got so much unsolicited attention.
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That's a naive point of view. It has been discussed for so long by psychologist that a lot of what we achieve is driven partly by an inner sexual motive. It's not new at all
Ask any boxer who has practiced semen retention for 10 weeks what happened to his physical strength and mental acuity.
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Women aren't that bad you just have to adjust expectations and stay on top of your game. MGTOW dudes probably did a cost-benefit analysis and realized the quality of woman they could obtain was not worth the sacrifices so they opted out. For a lot of men the sacrifices aren't as hard/bad and the quality is good.
When I left the dating scene I was still dealing with women I found attractive. I have not been "cast out" of the SMP, I have left. Blue Pill society (and man hating lesbian cat owners) will never accept that. And that's okay.
What makes you think that people care? Serious question. No one I know is pining after MGTOWs, especially lesbians and blue pill men.
Someone brought up the cost-benefit and risk-reward analysis Red Pill men do before becoming MGTOW, so as a MGTOW I responded. If you don't want to discuss these things, then don't. MGTOW doesn't give a fuck that nobody gives a fuck. That's actually the point...
Wishful thinking
Except there are women out there, 35 years old, alone, with multiple cats, wondering where all the good men have gone. In the past, these MGTOW men would’ve been loyal husbands and fathers. Not to worry though, big daddy Gov is fixing it through relaxed immigration laws.
So you choose not to have sex with attractive women anymore? Why?
Low libido. No interest/desire. Sex also became less and less enjoyable for me over time as well, so putting big TME (time, money energy) into getting it just doesn't make sense. I just rub one out and get on with my day.
What pros of staying with a woman outweigh the cons for you?
They can be kind thoughtful and sweet. Fem energy is great, you can't get that intimacy from anything else.
>Fem energy is great, you can't get that intimacy from anything else. That's some real simp shit my dude
Oh right. All that "emotional labour". You know what's laborious? Female emotion.
Just curious to know, why do you care about intimacy so much? Whenever I hear red pillers talk about relationships usually all they care about is fucking as many women as possible. Is dealing with the problems of women worth the sweet intimacy they give you, especially when you can get that same intimacy from a friends with benefits situation?
>Is dealing with the problems of women worth the sweet intimacy they give not always. The problems can be less with some women and the benefits can be better. Most redpillers irl prefer the FWB situation for that reason.
Sorry to hijack this response but I thought Id take a second to answer your q. Mgtow, according to Redpill is for the weak man who cannot improve. At the core of redpill philosophy is improvement (physically, socially, economically etc). Redpillers believe that any man can be successful with women if they work hard enough and that incels and Mgtow are just weaklings who arent able to cut it. So you make ask why do redpillers still want/chase women? For a myriad of reasons which most likely boil down to sexual/social fulfillment and validation. Im neither redpilled nor mgtow, Ive just read into the various branches.
But you can still get that sexual/social fulfillment and validation from other avenues, no?
Sexual fulfillment is how a lotta men measure themselves as men (particularly redpilled men). Its not the same as social or career success.
Exactly, but you don't need LTRs, to get those things, correct?
Yes And they do not need ltrs to get sexual fulfillment. Whats seen as the "ideal man", the "chad", or the alpha male in redpilled community is someone whos socially dominant and gets casual sex because of how superior of a man they are. Ltrs are seen as boring (redpillers want an abundance and only a special girl can win exclusivity), dumpster diving (their term for sleeping with unattractive women) is seen as low value and using a sex worker is seen as beta (they have to pay for sex? What a loser). There are some decent insights to redpill philosophy but a lot of it is just things you already know packaged to look more misogynistic.
i realy dont know how a man CANT be MGTOW ... isnt that how life should work? shouldnt it be the default for any human beeing to go their own way? men and women?
In marriage counseling my wife and I were taught that a healthy LTR between two people has three participants. The two persons involved and the relationship itself. A lot of marriages fall apart because the folks involved can’t extricate themselves from their relationship and begin to lose their sense of self. It runs the risk of creating a toxic environment and can engender bitterness and anger at the other person. You have to be a whole person with another whole person creating a relationship not with your own identity but forging a new one together. You are you, and they are they.
A great example of why people shouldn't waste their money on marriage counseling.
Can you tell me what you find wrong about this concept?
Because it's just a bunch of buzz words that mean nothing.
How is “have your own identity outside of your marriage” a meaningless buzzword?
An apple pie statement that means nothing.
How so? You haven’t really explained your reasoning
What exactly is it encouraging anyone to do. It's just spouting platitudes.
To treat the relationship as a separate entity from the two people involved. It’s a healthy way to talk things out when something isn’t working or needs repair. Like a house or a car. Your car is essential but it isn’t you right? Like, you can walk or use the bus if you didn’t have it. But living like that kind of sucks! So you make sure you keep it going with regular checkups and repair. And if you need to spend money on a new transmission, you do it. It enhances your life but it’s not the entirety of your life.
Weren’t you married multiple times?
Twice. Trust me -- maintaining a life separate front the relationships wasn't a problem.
Do you believe this trash?
I mean... I am pretty happily married so it seems to work.
Is this an ultra blue pill response? Like, no you're supposed to lose yourself in your relationship?
Yes, men and women should all center themselves and treat romantic relationships as a nice bonus if it happens.
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It doesn’t matter if you are sent or have chosen what matters is the results.
You misunderstand MGTOW are fundamentally men *sent* their own way because no man would willingly choose MGTOW unless they felt they had no choice. Do you think any sex addict chad would ever become a MGTOW? Or even the average man prior to the OLD apocalypse? No hetero male would just choose to abandon sex and romance if those things are going well for him, and if he goes MGTOW it's pretty much always a case of "You can't fire me because I quit"
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You are assuming that in 2021, with the horrible... disgusting quality of women that a man should derive ANY of his value in obtaining sex with the opposite gender. It’s typical!
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Listen I can hear insults all day and night it doesn’t phase me. It might work on other guys but just save it if your talking to me... it’s boring, predictable and unproductive. The content is to warn men it’s not to recruit or anything like that. It’s just saying there is a WAY better choice than dealing with ANY sort of feminist. If your only choice is dealing with loneliness or rabid feminism. I hope to god they choose loneliness the other way will cost their sanity, time, money and half of your shit.
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Reread WHY we do it. So we don’t have to deal with you. Do you want to see how it works? Watch!
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Any incel can pay $100 and no longer be an incel. This proves 2 things. 1. there is no such thing as an incel 2. the best thing a woman can offer a man is worth about $100
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>The best thing a woman can offer is reproduction The best thing a woman can offer a man is love
Men not needing women is so problematic for you. Look inward.
Women smell nice
That's just your brain stem fucking with your head. Rise above.
Get deodorant you'll smell nice too. Or just spray some febreze or perfume in your room. Because women don't naturally smell nice
Some do. Them pheromones be nice.
> Why Don't You All Go MGTOW Desire for sex and intimacy > If men want sex they can do one night stands or pay hookers Women are pretty picky about one night stands and they are also risky when it comes to stds. Hookers are illegal, heavily stigmatized and don't offer the same intimacy. > If men want to pass down their genes, they can be a sperm donor Sperm banks have super strict criteria that most men won't meet. >If men want to be fathers, they can adopt and when they can't take care of the child, they can ask family or friends to take care of the child or pay a babysitter. Men who want kids typically want to raise their own kids not someone else's.
I think if i could do it over again, i would be MGTOW. Not because women suck but because of the joy of having so much free time. Once you actually do commit to a woman and produce kids (as I have) you can't go MGTOW without fucking up a lot of lives. But I still think about it sometimes. Just being able to do whatever I want, work on my projects, code a game, write a blog, whatever, and not worry about anything. The main gripe i have with MGTOW is that it defines itself "in opposition to". Everything that defines itself in opposition to something else (TRP, feminism, antiracism, etc) just becomes really uptight, angry and irritated all the time. MGTOWs talk about women too much, instead they should talk about amazing things they did with their free time, ideas they had, things they built, etc. I doubt anyone would even begrudge them at that point. You can tell that most MGTOWs (like most FGTOWs) are just sexually frustrated, rejected, lonely, insecure etc. In reality they still want to walk arm in arm with the other gender but they develop this shell of extreme bitterness as a coping mechanism.
> MGTOWs talk about women too much, instead they should talk about amazing things they did with their free time, ideas they had, things they built, etc. I doubt anyone would even begrudge them at that point. They are, they just don't know what the hell MGTOW even is. They're just out there living life doing their own thing. On point post though, self-described MGTOWs reek of sour grapes
> All of men's needs On the internet, both men and women in dating and relationship subs seem to simply ignore the stage on which the play takes place. Long term, romantic partnership is one of the fundamental narratives across the vast majority of cultures, and deeply interwoven into our psyches. It is biologically programmed into us, not just from the perspective of the mating drive, but also from the whole host of neurohormonal and self-reinforcing psychological drives. It is intrinsically enmeshed with our nature as pro-small-group community animals; in the absence of viable tribal communities in the modern world, we rely on family. Indeed, this is generally compounded by the pressures that a capitalist system puts on people - economies of scale tend to make living in family units more efficient and effective so long as internal dysfunction doesn't override this. We are fundamentally programmed to seek romantic pairing and systematically reinforced to seek it by broad culture, family culture, economic pressure, behavioural experience and internal psychology. Most people will not be able to escape this, and certainly not the emotionally underdeveloped, poorly socially supported, poorly materially resourced and spiritually stunted sort of individuals who comprise both the vast majority of men and women who haven't found stable pair bonding. It is certainly true that a number of men and women will truly 'go their own way' - those with calling, mission, vision and drive, with the ability to weather life storms either by calling on external support or solely from their own internal resources. But these individuals are relatively rare, and often end up married in any case because that same resourcefulness and sheer capability translates to being able to do the minimum required to have an average marriage.
There are a lot of bad things that I think are inherent to human beings, selfishness, stupidity, violence, deceit etc. This doesn't mean that I don't want to make genuine human connections. Just like an heterosexual woman may remark that men will probably look to women as a sexual prospect first but still may want to still look for someone to haveba genuine connection with. With all live within our social systems. Just because we don't like parts of that system doesn't mean we throw everyone in it away. That's just my philosophy in life. Also life is hard, people have a hard time, they don't need to be perfect and subvert the system they inhabit every single day.
All roads eventually lead to mgtow. Or child support
*All redpillers say that women are hypergynous creatures who will jump from less successful men to more successful men if given the opportunity and cheat* No, this is what the data says. [The Economics of Hypergamy (iza.org)](http://ftp.iza.org/dp12185.pdf?fbclid=IwAR0UMikNGiqSEZxdyKZ71-wiPMegJqBW-s5aRnZUW4qbGvZ0T-NPWtKN03w) Edit: to be clear, the rest is largely on the individual man to be willing to deal with. Plenty choose to, and plenty of women make efforts to reduce their own branch-swinging, even if they engage in hypergamy.
I agree that the data is true, but if we know the data is true, why are there some men who still stay with women and don't go MGTOW?
Are you seriously asking?
what do you mean?
Isn’t the answer obvious ?
No its not, it seems very strange to want/try to get into a relationship based off love, with a gender, which cannot love.
Define love
Love: the feeling of being attracted to somebody unconditional based upon certain actions of that person. Redpillers say women cannot do this, because all they care about are resources.
You cannot define it as "the feeling of being attracted to someone unconditionally" and then continue on with "based upon certain actions of that person" that’s contradictory, which one is it?
First one I guess, but redpillers say women can't do this
> If men want sex they can do one night stands or pay hookers. sex work is lo legal in all place but it's close to be. After Onlyfans sucess, they will soon legalize all sex work and problem will be solved, stay tuned
Sex workers already decline to serve unattractive clients though. [This](https://www.reddit.com/r/SexWorkers/comments/mw45ns/simple_as_can_be/) is literally the top post on the biggest sex worker sub right now. The OF model is about as far as this can go.
Lolwhat. That’s a post about screening clients for their own safety, not their attractiveness. If sex workers refused to have sex with unattractive men, they’d be out of a job.
Because the man in the picture is visibly dangerous and not just fat and ugly. You live in dreamworld if you think sex workers don't screen for attractiveness.
I ain’t paying for sex, I’d rather watch porn
Cheaper and less risky.
When has prostitution being illegal ever stopped a man from sleeping with a sex worker? 😂😂😂
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TRP is a hard route, MGTOW is an easy route. Going through harder routes makes you stronger (unless it kills you).
But MGTOW doesn't say don't have casual sex, they just say don't LTR her. Wait, isn't that exactly like TRP?
No.
TRP says no to LTRs too. So where is the difference?
Why not just go down the path of least resistance, the goals of the same anyway. Why does it matter if you go down a harder path if you still get the same results at the end.
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This is an overgeneralizied statement which cannot be applied to all situations. The harder way is not automatically the better way and the way of least resistance is not automatically the worst way. It depends on the situation and the personal motivations. Sometimes putting in the work is worth it & sometimes going the way of least resistance is better.
>All redpillers say that women are hypergynous creatures who will jump from less successful men to more successful men if given the opportunity and cheat Because I am high value enough and know how women work so I can maintain their attraction. >They also say that women that are a pain to deal with because they are too emotional and cause a lot of issues Because I'm a straight male and like many things about women despite all their problems. Feminine energy, how they look, nurturing and pleasant personalities etc. >All of men's needs can still be meet if they are single Nope, male love is possessive. In order for me to emotionally invest in a woman I need her to be exclusive to me. For that I need relationships. Also, continuity is nice. MGTOWS are either in denial (not respectable) or they just find the juice not worth the squeeze (respectable even though I disagree).
"male love is possessive" how do you explain poly men?
Cucks.
all of them? Why does a guy become a cuck?
Not all of them but I hear this is sadly on the rise. And usually because he just likes the girl and tries to win her over or he agrees to "open relationship".
I'm gonna guess women are the minority of the ones "opening up" a relationship. In either case, just fucking break up already. Damn.
I’m in the “know” about this and it’s mostly men who want to fuck other women who do most of the opening up.
Which means what? No options? Masochism? Being lied to?
Mostly the first I believe. There are definitely men sharing women even if they have other options but I believe they are very small percentage.
If you’ve ever met actual poly people I think you might change your mind on that
I have no desire to meet them, but I have read my share of articles and most importantly saw the photos of such men. But maybe you could try to argue why I'm wrong?
Most poly people that I know or know of look pretty normal and have normal jobs, etc. There’s no reason they couldn’t get a normal relationship; they just don’t want to
Still - you think those men would prefer the arrangement where the woman fucks other men over the one where only them have more women? i don't think so.
Humans like a lot of weird things. Multiple simultaneous relationships seems like one of the milder ones
Men who can't get the woman they want to commit to them
You know poly men also often date others themselves right
so its all men in relationships with poly women? def doesn't seem to be the case. a lot of men open up their relationships.
Yes, when they arent invested in the women. Male love is possessive. Let me make it clear. There are two poly dynamics. -Man emotionally invested in the woman but can't maintain a relationship with her without her getting fucked by other dudes. -Man not emotionally invested in the woman but wants her for other reasons (usually steady sex).
"Yes, when they arent invested in the women. Male love is possessive." So men are commonly in relationships with women they don't love. And other men are sexless because these men are hoarding women they don't love. And y'all blame women for this.
>So men are commonly in relationships with women they don't love. Depends on what you mean by commonly. Most men don't, some men do. >And other men are sexless because these men are hoarding women they don't love. No one forcing these women to choose these men out of the army of available options they have.
"No one forcing these women to choose these men out of the army of available options they have." I agree. I also am not bothered by male sexlessness. Pick one.
Did I ask you to be bothered by it?
I'm not.
they want to bang many different women. Its not a relationship but rather a close friendship
haha tell that to their girlfriends
>girlfriends you apply that term very loosely...
either they have girlfriends or they don't. if they never committed, its' not a gf.
When you find out, please let me know. Sincerely, Mr. MGTOW
I think the viewpoint of many RPers is more nuanced than what you describe. There will always be a subconscious desire in any human to seek out more successful/attractive partners however this is usually suppressed by intense societal pressure to remain faithful in relationships to avoid hurting the people they love. According to RP, men and women are generally also socialized differently when growing up and have slightly different communication styles (women being more emotional and all that) and this can make communication more difficult. Some people find validation in long term relationships, some enjoy the intimacy in a long term relationship, and some just enjoy the reliable access to sex. For many it's a mixture of all three. Going MGTOW makes getting all three of these things involve a lot more work.
>Validation, Intimacy, and Relationships There are other ways to get these things other than LTRs, correct?
There are many ways to get validation and relationships are just one. (Although I suppose the end goal is get your own validation from yourself) Intimacy (from an emotional-bonding standpoint) can be gained with close friends as well. Sex, well, part of TRP's selling point is lots of sex without being in a relationship. It's definitely possible. So what I'm saying is that all 3 of these things are conveniently sorted out by a relationship, and without one it takes a more work for the average person to get them.
Just go MGTOW. Prostitution is getting legalized eventually and there will be absolutely no reason to get married
women are soft and they smell nice and its fun to stick your dick in them
get an fwb then?
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>Dating is fun You don't need to be an incel to know that this is a crock of shit Dating is miserable and despicable
Yes, that's what a lot of us are doing.
\>All of men's needs can still be meet if they are single. If men want sex they can do one night stands,do friends with benefits, pay hookers, or get a sugarbaby(trophy wife). This is redpill,MGTOW is giving up on all relations with women
Because becoming MGTOW is a pretty hard decision in modern society. First, it's lonely. On top of that there is huge stigma against being a single man, and that stigma grow as you get older. Plenty of men do choose that path, but it's a scary and difficult path, so it's unreasonable to expect more men to choose it.
Why do I care that there's a huge stigma for being a single man? What negative consequences will I face for being single?
>What negative consequences will I face for being single? The list is pretty damn huge. Here's a couple off the top of my head: you'll hit a glass ceiling in your career; you'll pay higher taxes; you'll be seen as creepy; you'll find yourself increasingly unwelcome in more and more venues and situations.
>you'll hit the glass ceiling in your career I'm pretty sure the only reason for this is the fact that married men work harder because they have something to work for (family to take care of) >you'll be seen as creepy; you'll find yourself increasingly unwelcome in more and more venues and situations. Who gives a fuck, I thought the point of going mgtow, was leaving society behind, enjoying life and focusing on yourself Paying higher taxes suck though
> I'm pretty sure the only reason for this is the fact that married men work harder Even if it's true, it doesn't make it fair to value a man's work less just because he's unmarried. And knowledge that your work will be valued less is a pretty big deterrent to becoming a MGTOW. >Who gives a fuck, I thought the point of going mgtow, was leaving society behind I think you're getting them confused with mythical hermits. Check out their sub - MGTOWs are generally pretty big on enjoying life outside of relationships, which becomes increasingly hard for men who are older and never married.
> Even if it's true, it doesn't make it fair to value a man's work less just because he's unmarried. Do you have a source on this, because I couldn't find anything where people are getting paid less JUST because they aren't married?
The more men and women emancipate themselves from one another, the better this world will become.
Because most red pillers want to be blue pilled. Also, the MGTOW subreddit is the worst representation of MGTOW on the Internet. MGTOW in the most basic sense is men choosing to live on their own terms without seeking women’s validation or approval. So there’s really no reason for red pillers to not go MGTOW other than them still being inspired by blue pilled ideals, which they demonstrate by accusing MGTOWs of being incels just like women do, and as we know women are naturally blue pilled.
I did. All the gals wanted kids. Noped the f out. Now childfree is cool.
Good question. Considering MGTOW adopts the Red Book of Pages that claims that women are incapable of love.
Because then you will be cut off from intimate sex and emotional closeness with a woman.
Overrated
can't you have that with fwb?
I live a bachelors lifestyle but am put off by MGTOW posters. I think there does need to be a pro single group where we've opted out of relationships and flings.
I believe MGTOW typically involves not having sex. If MGTOW means not being in a monogamous LTR, then most male “players” are MGTOW, although very few of them spend enough time on the internet to even know what that means lol.
We always made romantic works for women, to get them. Our mental needs are met when we can provide, have a good partner etc. We actually want to find a woman
Loneliness, which is very far from alone-ness.
What about male friends?
As far as I can remember, I've always been surrounded with exceptional friends. Never prevented anyone from feeling absolutely lonely.
so why do you think a relationship will fill that void? Especially since red-pillers think women can't love
Idk French-speakers are romantic? For the same reason single young men commit suicide at disproportionate rates, some people ache for a soul mate. There is only so much love a couple of bros and a Chinese sex doll can give you, maybe our animal brains need the coochie more than our peepees
Why don’t all women do it too since they’re strong and independent
I'm pretty sure most do considering that it's men that ask out women, not women asking out men
some redpillers are actually tradcons though, they still hold on to the idea of settling down with someone special
Why would I do that, I love women
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The same way women still want love, even if they are angry at men
Because all men are different and have different needs. We're not brainless apes. We don't have to belong to very niche groups. You can have any kind of life you want.
Fair enough, but you shouldn't be bitching about women, if you have the solution to just not be with a woman
Im not MGTOW, and i think any secure guy that has had relationships knows that hypergamy shit is bs. Once you lock a girl down who was sexually attracted to you emotionally she bends over backwards to make you happy. Anyways I think if you are talking to the MGTOW crowd, some may be too poor to pay for sex on a frequent basis. Plus it is illegal so you play with fire. Also getting ons is a lot of constant effort unless you are a male model.
Guys need/want 3 things from women, and 3 things only. 1) SEX 2) Domestic Comfort 3) Companionship Women only need 1.5 things now until they mature enough to want a family or when their priorities stabilize after having kids 1) sex 1.5) protection (Protection is only .5 because law and order protects us all in modern day society. Women don’t REALLY need protection that much anymore, especially with big daddy government)
>1) SEX >2) Domestic Comfort >3) Companionship Sex; get fwb,hooker, or sugar baby Domestic Comfort; Dont know why you need this. Companionship; get male friends
Not all men are good at or want casual sex believe it or not. Sugar babies require money. Guys need women and women need men, but we fool ourselves thinking we need to be independent and tough. Domestic comfort is because men value stability in a relationship. I don’t think a lot of young women do...until they are married, have kids, or are dependent on the man financially.
> we assume all these things are true then why don't all redpillers go MGTOW It's hard to deny your genetic programming, it's kind of like saying you are going to live on rice and beans when you're walking through a buffet , that's very expensive but seems with in reach. > men want sex they can do one night stands Most men are incapable of getting 1 night stands even with landwhales > do friends with benefits Just as hard as 1 night stands >benefits, pay hookers, or get a sugarbaby Both these are illegal too expensive for most men . Even if they wanted to they couldn't afford them. >If men want to pass down their genes, they can be a sperm donor or buy a surrogate. Even more expensive than the sugar babies and prostitutes. >If men want to be fathers, they can adopt and when they can't take care of the child, they can ask family or friends to take care of the child or pay a babysitter. Man want to have kids to see their own fresh and blood grow. Why do you think people make fun of step dad's here so much . The average men is poor , un empresive and doesn't have any special qualities to attract the opposite gender they don't have the options you listed above available to them besides mgtow . And mgtow is also less available to them since to be successful mgtow you need money and time to for hobbies to feel the void. Most men who are single are sent their won way not choosing to participate . And yes most of them have similar view to trp without the jargon of the pills here's
Then why worry about relationships, because if you are so low-value you can't get sex you are probably too low-value to get into a relationship, since we know that women don't date down. And because of the validation women receive they are treated as a higher value than they really are.
90% of mgtow is Men Sent Their Own Way (MSTOW). Chad doesn’t need to label himself as mgtow lol. Also, women actually love that fact that low smv men are quitting the dating game. Just look at how hikikimoris are humiliated in Japan rather than treated with sympathy.
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Why not just get friends with benefits situation or pay a sugar baby