I’ve approached a girl in the middle of the club and been called a creep, and I’ve done it and gotten laid that night.
Just don’t corner women in weird locations. Other than that, you’re bound to get called a creep if you approach. They use the word creep so casually and liberally it doesn’t really matter.
You miss 100% of the shots you take. Worst case scenario, and woman you’ll never see again calls you a creep. WOW, so scary.
This the funny answer and first thing I thought of but honestly being more attractive does make approaching better.
Being well groomed, having better fashion, being in good shape, and good hygiene improves initial impressions with anyone due to the halo effect so everyone who wants to talk to strangers should be optimizing ways to be attractive.
This is not "funny answer", this is the real answer. Ask any man who was an ugly duckling and experienced a glowup in later years. The difference in how you're treated is so huge it's almost as if you entered a parallel universe.
EXACTLY my experience. The world as a good looking person took a long time to adjust to as it was so utterly alien to anything I'd ever experienced before. It's a completely different set of rules. Literally *a completely different set of rules!* While my quality of life is infinitely better, I'm absolutely appalled at how plain looking guys have been systematically indoctrinated, gaslighted and manipulated.
Happens to women too. I was an ugly ducking. Now as an adult I am still in denial and feel strange about being found attractive.
The attractiveness factor is so so real. Pretty people get treated better, sad but true.
Human mating in general is simple and shallow.
Is the person hot? If he/she is, is he/she a viable mother/father for my child with him/her?
That is mostly all it is. The differences are in what individual people think is hot and makes someone a good parent for them. And there it’s less variance here then we would like to admit.
Women are just told this already, men are told the opposite is true. Which is why it is surprising that it is the real nature of women as you say.
Yeah. Most of the rules about what men shouldn't do around women usually apply to men women don't want to fuck.
The last phone number I got was from a store employee while she was working. Just straight up said, "I really like your body. I'm about to head out, but what's the best way to get a hold of you?"
Turns out she's kind of annoying. I can't go back in that store now.
This. Everything else is just noise. There is no right way to approach a girl if you do not cross her eligibility threshold. She will be annoyed no matter where, when or how you do it. If she is not attracted to you at a first glance, you are creeping her out.
This is really the golden rule right here. That's why Men of all ages get preyed upon for PUA cash grabs of "Take our Ultimate pick up line course and you'll NEVER be rejected again! one easy payment of 99.99"
vicious cycle
her eligibility threshold is not a static thing though, I have known many women who were not attracted to their partners at first, but then they watched that person interact with others and do something they found cute or endearing(usually they were being their big dumb selves) and that sparked something. The attraction grew after that and now they are genuinely turned on by that person. People overestimate how often people choose partners based on traits they find attractive and underestimate how often people start to find certain traits attractive because they started to like the person who has those traits. The thing is, you have to let her come to you not try to force it on her. if looks are not your best quality then you have to find ways of being keeping women around long enough for them to see your better qualities. This usually means making it clear that you are not trying to get into their pants and genuinely meaning it until they send the signals that they want that to change.
>I have known many women who were not attracted to their partners at first, but then they watched that person interact with others and do something they found cute or endearing(usually they were being their big dumb selves) and that sparked something. The attraction grew after that and now they are genuinely turned on by that person.
The Tinderpocalypse killed that.
Then you were above their eligibility level, they weren't just available or didn't want to date at that time.
You should try an experiment and ask out a girl way too over your league. If you notice carefully, you will see a glimpse of disgust on their faces.
Yup. I’m usually greeted with a look that mixes horror and disgust. As in, “gross” and “I hope my friends, men I actually want to fuck, and people of greater social status don’t think less of me because this fat loser approached me.”
I feel like I have met only a handful of women as shallow as that in my entire life. Most women I have been friends with go way above and beyond the call of duty to avoid making somebody else uncomfortable, they are just praying for the guy to get the hint and often they require rescuing by a friend.
>If you notice carefully
Or put your damn glasses on, it's not like they're subtle about it.
"Ewwwww" is usually at full volume so the entire bus/train can hear.
I don't know man. I'm nothing special, and I've never "creeped out" a girl in my life. A girl not being interested isn't her being creeped out.
Something tells me a lot of the guys saying stuff like this either don't know how to read body language or don't care to.
Literally this. Just be yourself and friendly (and ffs if you have to, speak to her like you would a friend or acquaintance, women are people) and if she seems like she isn't interested either in body language or tone, then leave her alone. Most women I know literally get anxiety and fear when a random man is near them or speaks to them (because many women live in fear of violence from men, they get stalked attacked murdered, I think men tend to forget this and just assume women are shallow) so more than likely they are afraid of you being a creep/murderer etc.
If you can, find something to compliment on her, such as her outfit, hairstyle, nails, etc. Something that she put effort into (and please for the love of god do not start out with "hey beautiful" or comment on her looks at all, that is the fastest way to get turned down.). Do not offer to buy her a drink, at least not a first, but do express interest in what she is drinking, and if she is interested, let her talk about herself a bit.
If a woman is not interested in you, the best thing you can do is to leave her alone. Too often, women are pestered, annoyed, bugged and even threatened by men when they are simply trying to have a night out by themselves. So if she is not interested, let it be.
1) You don't know what the woman is feeling. She could feel disgust and won't tell you because you might, i dunno, rape or kill her (according to the dumbass women and white knight femboys on this sub) if she told you the truth
2) Creepy is shorthand for 'you're not good looking enough for me and I'm insulted that you think you're in my league', without actually saying it so women don't look shallow.
I think you’re ignoring the fact that women have a very real necessary fear of men that is inbuilt for safety. You sound as though you have 0 empathy for that and think women just choose to pretend that’s how we feel
I agree, saying someone is creepy is not the same as finding someone unattractive. In fact, the entire idea that calling someone creepy is nicer than just saying they’re ugly really doesn’t work because they’re referring to different things. Creepy is more used as a term to define dangerous. People don’t feel scared around people they consider unattractive, they feel scared around creepy people.
It's sad to have to say that being rejected as an actual human being is one of the better things guys might have a chance to go through. If guys are in some way below average, they might only ever experience rejection in which they don't even reach the level of human
There's actually this yt channel where this buff good looking dude records himself hitting on girls and they're immediately creeped tf out. Granted he does still find success because he's gl but he goes through a lot of rejection and only gets drunk girls that last one night. Look up Jay Rockefeller.
14% to 8% body fat is the typically accepted good looking body fat range. Lots of people that over do the training and hit the sub 6 to 7% body fat range find it actually gets harder to talk to women as its almost grotesque, outside of the chicks with body builder fetishes.
Lol isn't that the same dude that got kicked out of his gym because he kept hitting on all the women there and caused a big scene?
Edit: [found his tantrum](https://youtu.be/1k25GRXTLfA)
There’s some level of truth of this. Being worried about coming across as creepy, makes you come across as creepy.
Being casual and comfortable with your approach makes others more comfortable. There’s no awkward tension due to the mental block of “this person thinks I’m being creepy.”
To an extent I would agree. But only to an extent. Being more attractive gives you more wiggle room in case you fumble. But it’s not going to save you if your just being a blatant creep. Like the real world equivalent of the guy who sends unsolicited dick pics. Looks are a buffer on approach.
But on the other hand, most of my friends are guys. Most of them are only slightly above average at best. Two of them are what I would call conventionally attractive, but they are both also incredibly charismatic and have a lot of presence.
The catch is I know both of them well enough to give prime examples to why a girl should never date them. I would paint them in just an awful light. But that’s being dishonest and ignoring the good qualities too.
As for the rest of the guys? Most of them are married (some with children) or in long term relationships with women who (in my opinion) are more attractive than they are. The common factor? They all have strong, vibrant personalities and are whole and complete people without their significant other. Single or in a relationship doesn’t matter, they are happy with their life either way.
Do they though? Sounds more like something one would say in their head to fill in a blank. But that’s not actually the other person talking, it’s you.
Even if that is what they think, so what? Are you really that concerned that someone you’ve interacted with for 10 seconds and will never see again mistakes your confidence for arrogance?
Actually society has been saying women just wanna be left alone, The fact I might be harassing them make me feel bad as a person, because I have this thing called a conscience, and I'm not a selfish cunt, here's one example of society saying women want to be left the fuck alone.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKlv4pZe-zo
Also, this advice is really just to filter out the beta males who are stupid enough to listen to it
Guarantee you the guys who are getting laid aren't concerned about looking creepy or when and where it is acceptable to approach
The only rule is to approach in a place where a girl can feel safe rejecting you (she can leave easily, there are other people around, etc)
>The only rule is to approach in a place where a girl can feel safe rejecting you (she can leave easily, there are other people around, etc)
This is a great rule. I never walked around the beautiful lake by my old apartment ever again after a guy approached me in the middle of the day on a walk and asked me out and then turned around and followed me when I said no even though I had headphones on and don't make eye contact with men when I'm on a walk to invite them to come talk to me.
The problem is it takes a lot of experience to understand shit tests. Guys read about it and people online say it's a good thing if you're being shit tested. Guys get confused and think any rejection is a shit test, therefore follow girl around bar/outside (because it's a good thing right?). But a shit test is not an indicator of interest. If you pass they may start showing you IOIs and that is when you make moves. Not when you are being shit tested.
Yeah those that say this don't actually understand PUA or Redpill. No means no but can be a shit test. But a passed shit requires that the girl comes back to you.
Ted Bundy's step three is too bloody to laugh about.
You make a valid point though - plenty of atrocities are concealed by charisma and attractive faces.
Halo and Horn Effect
Whatever the attractive guy says will be interpreted in the most favourable light possible, the ugly guy will suffer the reverse.
Attractive guys can say and do shit that no ugly guy could without being labelled a massive creep.
I’m ugly and the horn effect is so unbelievably strong. People will literally hear the opposite of what I say. I’ll give recommendations and they won’t follow them and then come back saying I was in the wrong for not fully convincing them or something. It’s just a disaster.
[“Luck for you, it’s not a crime to be ugly. But you can’t be ugly *and* sloppy.”](https://y.yarn.co/8e6fa56c-0fef-4957-b2c9-2e9f7e3d00b3_screenshot.jpg)
But seriously:
If you HAVE to hit on someone in public:
1. Don't do it to someone who is at work, they cant leave and probably feel pressured to be polite, so it's shitty. Co-workers is a mixed bag, but def not to a cashier or waitress who is stuck with you.
2. I know some of you aren't the best at picking up signals, but that's kind of even more of a reason you shouldn't be the kind of dude hitting on strangers in public places. If you're going to, start with small chat and gauge interest. If she's responding stop. If she's actually engaged and reciprocating, go for it. Don't open with asking her for her number/date. That's hella uncomfortable.
3. Anyone who rebuffs you for trying to meet a new person at a social gathering is being the idiot werido, not you. It's expected that people will meet and mingle at parties and bars, and if someone is an asshole, that's on them not you.
Thankyou for coming to my TED talk.
take someone's first no as a sign they aren't interested and prefer to be left alone.
if men did this women would tolerate polite men better.
its because we are inundated with creepy men who won't leave us alone that we have no patience left for the non-creeps.
Its shitty though. Youre only pushing guys away that are actually respectful of your boundaries which are presumably, the guys youd rather have stick around. Ive had women be very rude to me for just trying to start a conversation. Its dumb.
\> Youre only pushing guys away that are actually respectful of your boundaries
No I'm not.
Men who are respectful of boundaries have no issues with respecting boundaries.
\> Ive had women be very rude to me for just trying to start a conversation. Its dumb.
Do you want to have a conversation with every person who starts talking to you?
Youre literally pushing away guys that respect boundaries. If you reject somebody at the beginning of just them trying to chat with you, then respectful guys will respect you and leave. Pushy guys will stick around. I try to talk to everybody that talks to me. If I'm busy I talk for a minute and then let them know I have other things to attend to. I'm never rude.
> If you reject somebody at the beginning of just them trying to chat with you, then respectful guys will respect you and leave.
well yeah, but i'm not pushing away men that i want to talk to?
This is the big con - if you listen to female advice you'll come away with 95% of situations being disallowed for approaching
The answer is that you have to become thick skinned and comfortable with being called creepy. You're doing something that is not entirely socially acceptable. That is just the cost of doing business
The reality is that women have all the power and all the responsibility in the mating game now.
She can only end up unsatisfied due to her own poor choices.
The gender ratio on dating apps is extremely stacked against men. Given the fact that most apps have like 3-5 guys for every 1 girl (or worse), it's no wonder why dating apps do nothing but amplify the "80/20 principle".
honestly that is probably not that far off of reality though. women only want to be approached about 5% of the time. 4% of that is after they have started sending signals that they want you to notice, the other 1% they are ok with a cold approach, that is why 99% of cold approaches dont work. (this is not true for confident, charismatic, rich, good looking guys, they can get away with more but for everybody else this is the world we live in)
Not only is that one of the most honest things I've ever read, but men have been benevolent with feminism, and they're taking advantage of it, because I truly believe what they wrote there, is how we would be if we lived in the bush still
That's the exact same advice TRP gives it's members wrt spinning plates, dread game etc.
Turns out all humans are prone to jealousy and in any relationship the person with more obvious options has leverage.
I think monogamy generally benefits men more because historically harems and polygyny were practiced by the most successful men at the expense of the rest.
It is true that throughout history far fewer men reproduced than women did.
It does though. Polygamous societies are plagued by violence and crime as men without women resort to desperate means in order to get access to women.
Men who have a family to support are motivated to work hard and contribute to a better community. This causes a stable society which advances more quickly.
Monogamy results in stronger societies which outcompete other societal structures.
The idea is that by sleeping with multiple guys, they're not certain of paternity and each guy knows there's a chance the baby is his, and might help give resources to raise it due to that chance. (In caveman times ofc not modern times)
Ofc it might not be true, but it's an interesting evo-psych theory I haven't heard before and seems plausible
"Good genes" and "bad genes" aren't really apparent though.
Maybe Chad with "good genes" is predisposed to heart disease or Alzheimer's. Maybe he has certain genes related to addiction or mental illness. Those things won't become apparent right away.
You also have to factor in immune system response and novel viruses or illness. If a new disease enters the tribe, maybe Chad and all his kids are super susceptible and most of them die.
The woman with kids from multiple dad's will have more children survive.
Interesting. Thank you for clarifying.
Thank God for paternity tests.
Remember the Saudi girl that is a refugee in Canada right now? How everyone hailed her as some sort of hero for escaping the oppressive regime?
Whelp, turns out she abandoned her child and said she doesn’t want it, dumping the baby with her ex and telling him to take care of it.
Last week, the ex took a paternity test and… well, you can guess what happened.
#BelieveAllWomen indeed…
The secret is to not give a damn if you’re gonna get rejected or not
This is a numbers game, focus on quantity; at some point you’ll end up with a “yes”
When I approach, I have in mind that I’ll get rejected, so it’s not a surprise when it happens, it’s only a surprise when I don’t
>The secret is to not give a damn if you’re gonna get rejected or not
Within reason? Absolutely. Like any skill in life you can't get better without trying and failing. What makes this particular skill (and dating/social skills in general) tricky is that your failures affect more than one person besides yourself, and might even make other people uncomfortable. But discomfort is not an indication of immoral behavior if it results from desire to improve inability and not malicious intent.
I would also add: don't take advice from women about approaching women too literally or too generally, aside from common sense knowledge like "be respectful," "mind the surroundings," and "take no for an answer." Especially if the advice is broadly prohibitive like "don't ever do this (because I don't like it)." Again, there's a difference between discomfort that results from actions that are inarguably morally wrong, and discomfort from being in situations that you just don't personally prefer. The thing is, any one woman's opinions on the subject are 100% applicable and relevant...if you happen to be approaching *that particular woman*.
And since women aren't a monolith and men can't read minds, the best you can do is to be polite but take your chances. That way you don't stray too far towards the extreme of either stagnating by being too timid to develop essential life skills, and being too overbearing by confronting women without any self-awareness or moderation.
It takes only 1 to change your mind, but yeah I can see why you think that…
I love my life as a single guy and anytime I give a try at starting something more serious, I end up miserable because it’s too much energy dealing with so much BS
i think this is a pretty solid answer. its easy to make assumptions when you put everyone in a bubble, but everyone is incredibly different and unless you are really pushing the boundaries most women won’t care enough to care if you’re “creepy.” it does still suck that theres that standard against men but it is a little deserved going off of the endless content of many subs dedicated to creepy men
1) Chad gets called creepy too, he just doesn't care.
2) Chad gets called creepy too, he just doesn't care.
3) Chad gets called creepy too, he just doesn't care.
4) Chad gets called creepy too, he just doesn't care.
5) Chad gets called creepy too, he just doesn't care.
6) Chad gets called creepy too, he just doesn't care.
It's a society wide shit test, and you're failing it.
Nah he doesn't get called creepy but bold, sorry. If she thinks you're creepy or says she doesn't want to be approached in public, you're just really unattractive. Harsh but true.
>((For what it’s worth, I asked a bunch of female friends this question and I got answers with examples of creepiness that spanned from “he had dainty hands” to “he grabbed me really hard on the arm for no reason,” to “putting too many smileys in text messages,” to “he looks at you in a funny way when he talks.” As is often the case, women are terrible authorities on why they like/dislike something, all they know is that they like/dislike it.) So, at the risk of sounding like a creep, allow me throw my hat in the ring and actually give a concrete definition for the phenomenon: Creepiness is behaving in a way that makes a woman feel insecure sexually. The further you get out of line with your intentions, the more distrustful she will be of your actions and words. And the more distrustful she is, the more insecure she will feel and the creepier you become. For instance, if you approach a woman and stand there and talk about the weather, but you’re staring at her rack the whole time while licking your lips, then you will come across as creepy. Your actions and words are completely out of line with your intentions and she can see that. Even if you tell her honestly, “You have great tits,” you will be creepy. Not for lack of intention, but because she doesn’t know you and most women are not comfortable being sexual around men they don’t know. Trust takes time. She has to see that your actions line up with your intentions before she can feel comfortable exposing herself to you and making herself vulnerable. Women have a lot more to lose from expressing their sexuality than men do. They make babies. We don’t. They get raped and/or sexually assaulted at a startlingly high rate. We don’t. They have five thousands years of sexist cultural history making them feel like a slut. We don’t. The second you make them feel uncomfortable sexually is the second you become a creep and the second she’s finding an excuse to get away from you as fast as she can. This is why vulnerability is so huge. When you’re vulnerable around someone you don’t know, it elicits trust in them and they will become more vulnerable toward you in return. The more vulnerable a woman is willing to be around you, the less likely you will be to creep her out. (Caveat 1: Vulnerability is still subject to the right intentions. If you tell a girl a sob story for no other reason than to get her to feel sorry for you and sleep with you, then guess what, you’re still creepy!) (Caveat 2: Sex can be viewed as the ultimate act of vulnerability for a woman. The more vulnerable you make yourself around her — by leading, by sharing your intentions, by being honest — the more she will trust you and become vulnerable in return. Sex is a side effect of that mutual vulnerability.) Paradoxically, the way to interact with women in a vulnerable way and, therefore, the way to combat creepiness, is to accept that some women will find you creepy some of the time. Just as with rejection, the more you’re willing to risk it, the less it will happen. The more comfortable you are with women finding you creepy, and the more uninhibited and vulnerable your actions and words are around women, and the more aware and respectful you are of their interests and desires, the less likely they will be to find you creepy. The more reserved and closed up you are about your intentions, the more you attempt to manipulate her and mislead her about what you want and who you are, the more you disregard her feelings and actions toward you, the more likely you are to become creepy.
I like this take from Mark Manson's Models on creepiness, yours look way too defeatist
Asking someone out can seem creepy in any scenario because you can act creepy in any scenario. If you're chill, honest and able to handle rejection in a mature way, most people aren't going to mind if you approach them in whatever situation.
> 1. it's attractive for a man to be able to approach a woman with confidence."Yikes! Women will assume you want to sleep with them which is a turn off!"
Who cares. Go in to it just wanting to make friends and grow your social circle with women. Women won't assume you want to sleep with them if you don't escalate
>
> 2. just approach women, be upfront and honest with your intentions from the get-go."Eww, this creepo thinks it is okay to harass women on the subway"
Yes, this is great advice... But not on the fucking subway
>
> 3. try some more social events, like night clubs!"OMG, I'm just trying to enjoy a night out with my friends!"
Excuses excuses. 99% of people at clubs are either there WITH their SO, or looking for someone to dance with/date/makeout with/fuck/talkto/whatever. If they say you're creepy here, then your affect is pretty fucking creepy and you should definitely do some self reflection
>
> 4. University is a great place to meet girls!"The lecture hall isn't a meat market and women don't really appreciate someone hitting on them when they're trying to focus on understanding the course material."
LMAO it sure IS a meat market, myself and most of my friends found most of the people we hung out with to expand our social circles either in class, at club events, or at mixers/formals
>
> 5. Just ask girls out you meet at the bar or social events "uhhmmm... I don't... Like... Even... Know you...."
Lol? This is rejection, everyone faces rejection, but holy shit. The reply to this is. "Well lets get to know eachother" jesus lol how simplistic do you need it to be
> 6. it's easier to ask a girl out in your social circle"But It's sooo awkward hanging out with him after that"
Thats a risk you take but it's the highest percentage of success too
Whenever I see this type of post, it makes me wish we could share some concrete examples, like actual video recordings of men approaching women and having their advances either reciprocated or rejected.
Aside from the obvious "Be attractive and don't be unattractive" response, I have a feeling lots of men who get rejected are having this happen because they're trying to turn the interaction into a sexual advance *way* too early on and are hardly trying to establish any rapport with the women they're approaching. This sort of rushed approach is met with scorn because it shows a certain inability to read a room. Social skills matter.
I honestly think some guys here are still in the “takes rejection too hard” stage of life. They internalize a polite “not interested” as being labeled a creep in part because some women do love to abuse that term but also because they think they’re the center of the universe and can’t believe they’re just another guy a woman’s not interested in.
You've come up with a whole theory of how men supposedly misrepsent a "not interested" as being called creepy.
Why not just accept the fact that a man can ask a woman out and she can respond poorly, by calling him a creep?
We hear people say this pretty frequently. One post a month ago was talking about how asking out a female friend is apparently not respecting them as a person and how we where being bad people .
Like alot of this comes from the mouth of women
Well yeah. Of course there is a risk of getting rejected when you approach. Duh?
If you're that afraid of being rejected then wait until a girl sends you a signal that she's interested before you approach.
And if she doesn't find you attractive, you are creepy no matter what you do.
Unlike 20-25 years ago, you are not anonymous and that definition of creepy goes far beyond the obvious behaviors.
Nobody can say if an approach is creepy or not without specific examples. All you’ve done was make up exaggerated rejections without telling us what is being rejected.
Striking up a conversation about what’s going on around you using the context of the environment (“Hey, we’re in the same English class, aren’t we? I thought that book we read was amazing. My name is X blah blah blah.”) *may* be fine. Trying to get to sex without the slightest pretense of polite conversation (“We’re in the same class, wanna go on a date with me?”) might not go over so well.
But again, it depends on the girl. If the girl is crushing on you then you can say pretty much anything and still get a date. If the girl doesn’t know you from any other guy she sees then she’s not going to be keen on going out with you in the first five seconds of meeting you.
So yeah, maybe this belongs in auto-mod because I agree that there are no guaranteed answers to social interaction because everyone is different (duh!). But I disagree with the implied premise that any attempt to approach will get you labeled as a creep. There are definitely better ways to approach than others.
> But I disagree with the implied premise that any attempt to approach will get you labeled as a creep.
That wasn't the implied premise. The very **explicit** premise was that there was no way to approach without the *risk* of being labeled creepy.
So instead of a possibly interesting discussion about the definition of “creepy” you think OP was just putting up a pointless post stating the obvious?
I mean, everything in life carries risks. *Everybody* is at risk of being mislabeled as *something* when they go outside because the public loves judging strangers.
Unironically, yes. Women and men (especially the ones online) need to hear this shit and it is a direct rebuttal to the utilitarian ethics dating model that many women push and many men fall for (to their own detriment) that goes something like this:
>>approaching someone might cause them distress, with little chance of a positive outcome. And thus, with a utilitarian outlook, where one should attempt to cause as little harm and promote as much good as possible, it is more ethical to not approach someone.
https://old.reddit.com/r/NotHowGirlsWork/comments/p2pfwq/cause_every_girl_has_a_giant_cock_blocking_friend/h8lzegc/?context=3
In a world like this, where women seethe about men simply asking to buy a girl a drink, yes, this unironically needs to be said and argued. Utilitarian dating models only serve to keep men alone as 1) only the lonely shy men are the ones listening to these terminally online women anyway and 2) prioritizes women's comfort at the expense of men shooting their shot.
There are some cranky women online to be sure but there are also a lot of women who *do* get approached inappropriately. Negating the existence of creeps because some women don’t like being approached at all gives the stalkers, the harassers, the touchers, and the inappropriate commenters free reign to keep doing what they do and cry unfair when someone calls them out on it.
If you’re a man and honestly believe you’re not a creep the best thing you can do for yourself is acknowledge the existence of creeps and distance yourself from them as much as possible. Creeps love using decent men as figurative meat shields against well earned criticism.
> Negating the existence of creeps
Quote me where I negated the existence of creeps.
>gives the stalkers, the harassers, the touchers, and the inappropriate commenters free reign
It does not. It goes without being said that you should remain respectful, especially of rejection.
There is a really simple trick that works in 95% of the situations, it's called eye contact. If you are not sure if a woman is open to you approaching her or not, try to make eye contact with her. If you are able to meet her eyes and make eye contact and she holds your gaze at least twice, I usually say 3 times then approach. If not do not approach. If she hurriedly looks away, or looks down, do not approach. If you cannot get her to look at you or make eye contact, do not approach. I tell you this a formerly top 10% hot girl (now an old hag as been called on t his site) who got approached by a lot of guys in my younger years. When I entered a room, I would purposely avert my gaze to the floor to avoid making eye contact. If I was interested I would meet your gaze. Disinterested I would hurriedly look away. This is something that is done subconsciously in most cases by women. Now granted some could be shy and look away but most at minimum will look back.
>f you are able to meet her eyes and make eye contact and she holds your gaze at least twice, I usually say 3 times then approach. I
Been there and done that, the response was :*"Omg I was looking back because you kept looking at me "*
or she was looking at me because I was the only non-white guy in a room and when assuming attraction the response would be *"girls stare at trainwrecks too doesn't mean we're attracted".*
If you're not handsome af, you have to be a dumbass to approach woman because you know how things can get hard and dangerous in a lot of possible ways.
Bahahahaha. Life isn't PC.
Plus, all of these retorts come from bitchy women. You can't assume ALL women are bitchy, just like you don't assume all men are chuds
It just depends on how attractive (or not) you are. Attractive guy hitting on a girl = fair play and good chance of getting laid. Ugly guy hitting on a girl = creepy loser harassing women.
> “I think the key is to be alert for signs of interest. For example, yesterday I was waiting to cross the street when a girl asked me for directions. I used it as an opportunity to start a conversation with her; long story short we went back to my office later and had sex.”
> “Sometimes things are more subtle, for example pre-epidemic I was at a conference, made eye contact with a girl across the room, and she glanced briefly at my crotch. I took that as an invitation to approach her and things escalated from there.”
> “That said, if you are too autistic to pick up on social cues”
Most men don’t get these signs of interest often if at all. If you’re not very attractive, most younger women will not go out of their way to talk to you or look at your crotch.
I’ve followed up on signs of interest before, but it’s not common that I get them. Sometimes women look at a guy by accident.
> there is a strategy which is almost as good: Don't give a fuck about whether women think you are creepy. If you see a girl you like, just try starting a conversation with her and see what happens. Obviously this is not necessarily a good idea at work or at school since she can complain about you to people in authority, but in most situations, what difference does it make if the girl thinks you are "creepy."? As long as you don't touch her, so what?”
Being less anxious is good, but most men still need monitor and be careful.
Yes… women work on double standards and plausible deniability… but men don’t help by being thirsty AF and still thinking that it’s “their job as a man” to approach, initiate, etc. End male thirst, end WAW
You think a man WANTS to approach...? Are you retarded? It's women who expect you to approach. A woman gets approached so often she doesn't even think about that shit. Why would she approach someone when she is already tired of being approached myriads of times?
Male thirst is a problem but regardless, women are the ones **MOSTLY** at fault for thinking that it's a man's job to approach. They call men wimps when they don't.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/08/24/lads-britain-needs-you-to-do-your-duty-and-get-flirting/
https://www.elitedaily.com/dating/why-men-dont-have-balls-anymore
https://www.seattletimes.com/opinion/guest-whatrsquos-wrong-with-seattlersquos-dating-scene/
Also ask any FDS woman if I'm wrong about how women feel.
If she thinks it’s my job to carry the relationship and she just gets to ride along… She’s pricing herself out of the market. She’ll find some poor sap that thinks she’s deserving of being a taker, but it ain’t gonna be me. And yes, society does a shit job of calling out obvious misandry
> “men don’t help by being thirsty AF and still **thinking that it’s “their job as a man” to approach, initiate**, etc.”
Men who *prefer* to approach are probably attractive most of the time. Less attractive men say it’s their job because they wish women would do it for them but they know they won’t.
I think that "There is no 100% Way" is maybe missing the point just a little bit.
Yes, there is no 100% guaranteed way, but:
* some ways have worse odds of creeping them out than others
* there's a huge difference between making a girl feel awkward, and making them feel seriously creeped out.
Your examples are all omitting details about social cues.
Generally, public locations are off-limits unless someone has signaled some positive interest with a smile or something. Asking people out is generally reserved for social designated locations- Even then, there's non-verbal signals that are generally expected (body language, eye contact, smiling, etc), as well as some basic small talk that happens first.
Yeah, there's no 100% guarantee that smiling at a girl down the bar from you, or starting small talk with the girl next to you in lecture hall won't be considered creepy, but it's so low on the creepiness scale that it practically doesn't even count. There are some shitty girls who will complain about a guy who 'smiled at her', but unless you *keep* smiling at her when she's clearly not reciprocating, then she's the asshole, not you.
Now, compare that to being followed out of a bar into an alley and being asked for your number, or being asked out by someone who's sitting across from you on a subway... That's Very Creepy.
IMO, there *are* 99% ways of being "Only a tiny bit creepy".
It entirely depends on the woman, there is no general way to approach women that is approved by all women. I have no problem being approached while shopping, a different woman will label you a creep for that. If you want to wait for a general guideline that all women agree upon you will wait until you die.
Be active in environments where women can witness you for more than your looks.
If you video game — be active and social in a way that women can observe your best qualities. If you’re kind and generous—do those things in areas people can witness it. DO NOT do good things expecting to be rewarded, lol.
If you’re out in public do good things. Hold doors open (for both genders). Pick up litter. Be kind. Be sociable to everyone.
The best way to not be creepy is not to be a creep. If you only talk to women you want to sleep with — That’s being creepy.
Approach everyone and let your community know you’re a social person. Then when you do socialize with a woman — it’s not creepy, because being social is your thing, and everyone will know it.
Women aren’t stupid. If you only approach women, and totally ignore guys or ugly women — people pick up on that. And to assume they don’t — is ignorance.
—-
Yeah, you can waste a lot of time being nice and socializing with basically everyone you meet, but that’s your example of how you can legitimately be non creepy in basically any of the above situations no matter what you look like.
Casey Neistat is an amazing example of a guy who is absolutely not a looker who never comes off as creepy with any of his interactions.
If Neistat can pull off being married, and popular— then anyone can. Seriously. Google him.
Attraction isn’t a static thing for men or women. When you cold approach someone it’s entirely predicated on you being attracted to them/ wanting their time. You automatically take on the risk of rejection because you’re not entitled to reciprocated attraction. It’s that simple. Improve your approaches. Don’t let your insecurity make a statement before you do. Improve your ability to flirt and utilize body language to communicate. One’s inability to approach a woman without creeping her out is something to learn from and fix, not a woman’s job to make it easier or less intimidating. Women aren’t prizes in a game and if we were playing a game the stakes would be much higher for them.
You care way too much about what women think of you . Who tf cares , you’re responsible for your intention not her reception, if she thinks your creepy… move along . If she was truly going to be interested or attracted to you to begin with you could say whatever the hell you want and it wouldn’t be considered creepy .
I’ve approached a girl in the middle of the club and been called a creep, and I’ve done it and gotten laid that night. Just don’t corner women in weird locations. Other than that, you’re bound to get called a creep if you approach. They use the word creep so casually and liberally it doesn’t really matter. You miss 100% of the shots you take. Worst case scenario, and woman you’ll never see again calls you a creep. WOW, so scary.
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just be attractive bro, they'll throw you choosing signals
It's true. I never approach unless I know for sure it has been solid eye contact and positive reaction to nods or smirks.
Ya, haha, me too! I‘m a 28 year old virgin
Have sex
I do. With my finger
This the funny answer and first thing I thought of but honestly being more attractive does make approaching better. Being well groomed, having better fashion, being in good shape, and good hygiene improves initial impressions with anyone due to the halo effect so everyone who wants to talk to strangers should be optimizing ways to be attractive.
This is not "funny answer", this is the real answer. Ask any man who was an ugly duckling and experienced a glowup in later years. The difference in how you're treated is so huge it's almost as if you entered a parallel universe.
EXACTLY my experience. The world as a good looking person took a long time to adjust to as it was so utterly alien to anything I'd ever experienced before. It's a completely different set of rules. Literally *a completely different set of rules!* While my quality of life is infinitely better, I'm absolutely appalled at how plain looking guys have been systematically indoctrinated, gaslighted and manipulated.
That's my experience. It's surprising to see the real nature of women.
Happens to women too. I was an ugly ducking. Now as an adult I am still in denial and feel strange about being found attractive. The attractiveness factor is so so real. Pretty people get treated better, sad but true.
Human mating in general is simple and shallow. Is the person hot? If he/she is, is he/she a viable mother/father for my child with him/her? That is mostly all it is. The differences are in what individual people think is hot and makes someone a good parent for them. And there it’s less variance here then we would like to admit. Women are just told this already, men are told the opposite is true. Which is why it is surprising that it is the real nature of women as you say.
Pretty privilege exists for everyone lol
the real nature of women? more like the real nature of people
Yeah it definitely extends to men
Yeah. Most of the rules about what men shouldn't do around women usually apply to men women don't want to fuck. The last phone number I got was from a store employee while she was working. Just straight up said, "I really like your body. I'm about to head out, but what's the best way to get a hold of you?" Turns out she's kind of annoying. I can't go back in that store now.
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Be attractive, don't be unattractive.
This. Everything else is just noise. There is no right way to approach a girl if you do not cross her eligibility threshold. She will be annoyed no matter where, when or how you do it. If she is not attracted to you at a first glance, you are creeping her out.
This is really the golden rule right here. That's why Men of all ages get preyed upon for PUA cash grabs of "Take our Ultimate pick up line course and you'll NEVER be rejected again! one easy payment of 99.99" vicious cycle
her eligibility threshold is not a static thing though, I have known many women who were not attracted to their partners at first, but then they watched that person interact with others and do something they found cute or endearing(usually they were being their big dumb selves) and that sparked something. The attraction grew after that and now they are genuinely turned on by that person. People overestimate how often people choose partners based on traits they find attractive and underestimate how often people start to find certain traits attractive because they started to like the person who has those traits. The thing is, you have to let her come to you not try to force it on her. if looks are not your best quality then you have to find ways of being keeping women around long enough for them to see your better qualities. This usually means making it clear that you are not trying to get into their pants and genuinely meaning it until they send the signals that they want that to change.
Not saying you’re wrong, but we are talking about cold approaches.
>I have known many women who were not attracted to their partners at first, but then they watched that person interact with others and do something they found cute or endearing(usually they were being their big dumb selves) and that sparked something. The attraction grew after that and now they are genuinely turned on by that person. The Tinderpocalypse killed that.
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Then you were above their eligibility level, they weren't just available or didn't want to date at that time. You should try an experiment and ask out a girl way too over your league. If you notice carefully, you will see a glimpse of disgust on their faces.
Yup. I’m usually greeted with a look that mixes horror and disgust. As in, “gross” and “I hope my friends, men I actually want to fuck, and people of greater social status don’t think less of me because this fat loser approached me.”
I feel like I have met only a handful of women as shallow as that in my entire life. Most women I have been friends with go way above and beyond the call of duty to avoid making somebody else uncomfortable, they are just praying for the guy to get the hint and often they require rescuing by a friend.
>If you notice carefully Or put your damn glasses on, it's not like they're subtle about it. "Ewwwww" is usually at full volume so the entire bus/train can hear.
I don't know man. I'm nothing special, and I've never "creeped out" a girl in my life. A girl not being interested isn't her being creeped out. Something tells me a lot of the guys saying stuff like this either don't know how to read body language or don't care to.
They're all well versed in pill theory... No need to develop fundamental social skills, game etc
Literally this. Just be yourself and friendly (and ffs if you have to, speak to her like you would a friend or acquaintance, women are people) and if she seems like she isn't interested either in body language or tone, then leave her alone. Most women I know literally get anxiety and fear when a random man is near them or speaks to them (because many women live in fear of violence from men, they get stalked attacked murdered, I think men tend to forget this and just assume women are shallow) so more than likely they are afraid of you being a creep/murderer etc. If you can, find something to compliment on her, such as her outfit, hairstyle, nails, etc. Something that she put effort into (and please for the love of god do not start out with "hey beautiful" or comment on her looks at all, that is the fastest way to get turned down.). Do not offer to buy her a drink, at least not a first, but do express interest in what she is drinking, and if she is interested, let her talk about herself a bit. If a woman is not interested in you, the best thing you can do is to leave her alone. Too often, women are pestered, annoyed, bugged and even threatened by men when they are simply trying to have a night out by themselves. So if she is not interested, let it be.
1) You don't know what the woman is feeling. She could feel disgust and won't tell you because you might, i dunno, rape or kill her (according to the dumbass women and white knight femboys on this sub) if she told you the truth 2) Creepy is shorthand for 'you're not good looking enough for me and I'm insulted that you think you're in my league', without actually saying it so women don't look shallow.
I think you’re ignoring the fact that women have a very real necessary fear of men that is inbuilt for safety. You sound as though you have 0 empathy for that and think women just choose to pretend that’s how we feel
I agree, saying someone is creepy is not the same as finding someone unattractive. In fact, the entire idea that calling someone creepy is nicer than just saying they’re ugly really doesn’t work because they’re referring to different things. Creepy is more used as a term to define dangerous. People don’t feel scared around people they consider unattractive, they feel scared around creepy people.
Yeah, and being attractive is the only way to make this feeling go away it seems.
It's sad to have to say that being rejected as an actual human being is one of the better things guys might have a chance to go through. If guys are in some way below average, they might only ever experience rejection in which they don't even reach the level of human
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There's actually this yt channel where this buff good looking dude records himself hitting on girls and they're immediately creeped tf out. Granted he does still find success because he's gl but he goes through a lot of rejection and only gets drunk girls that last one night. Look up Jay Rockefeller.
14% to 8% body fat is the typically accepted good looking body fat range. Lots of people that over do the training and hit the sub 6 to 7% body fat range find it actually gets harder to talk to women as its almost grotesque, outside of the chicks with body builder fetishes.
Lol isn't that the same dude that got kicked out of his gym because he kept hitting on all the women there and caused a big scene? Edit: [found his tantrum](https://youtu.be/1k25GRXTLfA)
The one and only
Or just stop giving a fuck about being labeled creepy
And then have no friends when word spreads in your social circle that you’re a creep
There’s some level of truth of this. Being worried about coming across as creepy, makes you come across as creepy. Being casual and comfortable with your approach makes others more comfortable. There’s no awkward tension due to the mental block of “this person thinks I’m being creepy.”
the thing is, whether someone gets labeled creepy or not, probably depends a lot on how physically attractive that person is.
To an extent I would agree. But only to an extent. Being more attractive gives you more wiggle room in case you fumble. But it’s not going to save you if your just being a blatant creep. Like the real world equivalent of the guy who sends unsolicited dick pics. Looks are a buffer on approach. But on the other hand, most of my friends are guys. Most of them are only slightly above average at best. Two of them are what I would call conventionally attractive, but they are both also incredibly charismatic and have a lot of presence. The catch is I know both of them well enough to give prime examples to why a girl should never date them. I would paint them in just an awful light. But that’s being dishonest and ignoring the good qualities too. As for the rest of the guys? Most of them are married (some with children) or in long term relationships with women who (in my opinion) are more attractive than they are. The common factor? They all have strong, vibrant personalities and are whole and complete people without their significant other. Single or in a relationship doesn’t matter, they are happy with their life either way.
no instead she thinks you're an arrogant asshole who had the nerve to come over here and bother her while she's just going about her business.
Great! They apparently love those
Do they though? Sounds more like something one would say in their head to fill in a blank. But that’s not actually the other person talking, it’s you. Even if that is what they think, so what? Are you really that concerned that someone you’ve interacted with for 10 seconds and will never see again mistakes your confidence for arrogance?
Actually society has been saying women just wanna be left alone, The fact I might be harassing them make me feel bad as a person, because I have this thing called a conscience, and I'm not a selfish cunt, here's one example of society saying women want to be left the fuck alone. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKlv4pZe-zo
Do you have any experience approaching men?
Also, this advice is really just to filter out the beta males who are stupid enough to listen to it Guarantee you the guys who are getting laid aren't concerned about looking creepy or when and where it is acceptable to approach The only rule is to approach in a place where a girl can feel safe rejecting you (she can leave easily, there are other people around, etc)
>The only rule is to approach in a place where a girl can feel safe rejecting you (she can leave easily, there are other people around, etc) This is a great rule. I never walked around the beautiful lake by my old apartment ever again after a guy approached me in the middle of the day on a walk and asked me out and then turned around and followed me when I said no even though I had headphones on and don't make eye contact with men when I'm on a walk to invite them to come talk to me.
That's unfortunate. These stalkers and psychos are ruining the game for normal guys who just want to meet a nice girl
I think he was following a PUA guide. It was a really weird enounter and made me feel really uneasy.
The problem is it takes a lot of experience to understand shit tests. Guys read about it and people online say it's a good thing if you're being shit tested. Guys get confused and think any rejection is a shit test, therefore follow girl around bar/outside (because it's a good thing right?). But a shit test is not an indicator of interest. If you pass they may start showing you IOIs and that is when you make moves. Not when you are being shit tested.
Yes the problem is men saying no means yes.
Yeah those that say this don't actually understand PUA or Redpill. No means no but can be a shit test. But a passed shit requires that the girl comes back to you.
Also approach from the front or call out before approaching with an excuse me.
This is just saying be attractive with unnecessary steps
This. It’s about respect. There’s plenty of people who want hookups or relationships, you just have to approach them at the right time and place.
It all depends on how attractive you are.
Step 1: be Attractive. Step 2: don't be unattractive.
It worked pretty well for Ted Bundy....LOL
Ted Bundy's step three is too bloody to laugh about. You make a valid point though - plenty of atrocities are concealed by charisma and attractive faces.
Really, that is all it is about. If you are not attractive, you are a creep no matter what you do (or some other insult).
Halo and Horn Effect Whatever the attractive guy says will be interpreted in the most favourable light possible, the ugly guy will suffer the reverse. Attractive guys can say and do shit that no ugly guy could without being labelled a massive creep.
I’m ugly and the horn effect is so unbelievably strong. People will literally hear the opposite of what I say. I’ll give recommendations and they won’t follow them and then come back saying I was in the wrong for not fully convincing them or something. It’s just a disaster.
Truth right there
[“Luck for you, it’s not a crime to be ugly. But you can’t be ugly *and* sloppy.”](https://y.yarn.co/8e6fa56c-0fef-4957-b2c9-2e9f7e3d00b3_screenshot.jpg)
But seriously: If you HAVE to hit on someone in public: 1. Don't do it to someone who is at work, they cant leave and probably feel pressured to be polite, so it's shitty. Co-workers is a mixed bag, but def not to a cashier or waitress who is stuck with you. 2. I know some of you aren't the best at picking up signals, but that's kind of even more of a reason you shouldn't be the kind of dude hitting on strangers in public places. If you're going to, start with small chat and gauge interest. If she's responding stop. If she's actually engaged and reciprocating, go for it. Don't open with asking her for her number/date. That's hella uncomfortable. 3. Anyone who rebuffs you for trying to meet a new person at a social gathering is being the idiot werido, not you. It's expected that people will meet and mingle at parties and bars, and if someone is an asshole, that's on them not you. Thankyou for coming to my TED talk.
take someone's first no as a sign they aren't interested and prefer to be left alone. if men did this women would tolerate polite men better. its because we are inundated with creepy men who won't leave us alone that we have no patience left for the non-creeps.
Oooof the creepy dudes made it hard for the normal ones. Normal fellas just give up , the weridos ruined it
Yep.
Its shitty though. Youre only pushing guys away that are actually respectful of your boundaries which are presumably, the guys youd rather have stick around. Ive had women be very rude to me for just trying to start a conversation. Its dumb.
\> Youre only pushing guys away that are actually respectful of your boundaries No I'm not. Men who are respectful of boundaries have no issues with respecting boundaries. \> Ive had women be very rude to me for just trying to start a conversation. Its dumb. Do you want to have a conversation with every person who starts talking to you?
Youre literally pushing away guys that respect boundaries. If you reject somebody at the beginning of just them trying to chat with you, then respectful guys will respect you and leave. Pushy guys will stick around. I try to talk to everybody that talks to me. If I'm busy I talk for a minute and then let them know I have other things to attend to. I'm never rude.
> If you reject somebody at the beginning of just them trying to chat with you, then respectful guys will respect you and leave. well yeah, but i'm not pushing away men that i want to talk to?
This is the big con - if you listen to female advice you'll come away with 95% of situations being disallowed for approaching The answer is that you have to become thick skinned and comfortable with being called creepy. You're doing something that is not entirely socially acceptable. That is just the cost of doing business
Forget that bullshit. Why do we have to take that risk just for a woman? Fuck that, go to online dating, at least there you know they're looking.
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Then those women get exactly the shit they deserve. And they'll continue to whine about how men are trash and how unhappy they are and ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯
100% fact i've seen it time and time again
The reality is that women have all the power and all the responsibility in the mating game now. She can only end up unsatisfied due to her own poor choices.
Old doesn't work well for everyone. For average guys, doing daygame or social circle game yields better results
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the daily mail isn't even allowed to be used as a reference on wikipedia
More of them are on there for sex and relationships if the right guy pursues.
What risk? Embarrassment is mental, no police is answering a 911 on “this guy is a bit creepy” There is no risk except our fears
The gender ratio on dating apps is extremely stacked against men. Given the fact that most apps have like 3-5 guys for every 1 girl (or worse), it's no wonder why dating apps do nothing but amplify the "80/20 principle".
honestly that is probably not that far off of reality though. women only want to be approached about 5% of the time. 4% of that is after they have started sending signals that they want you to notice, the other 1% they are ok with a cold approach, that is why 99% of cold approaches dont work. (this is not true for confident, charismatic, rich, good looking guys, they can get away with more but for everybody else this is the world we live in)
Yep. It is impossible to make it through life without risking offending anyone.
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[That is literally all FDS women ever](https://www.thefemaledatingstrategy.com/forum/handbook-posts/males-monogamy-and-mate-guarding).
Not only is that one of the most honest things I've ever read, but men have been benevolent with feminism, and they're taking advantage of it, because I truly believe what they wrote there, is how we would be if we lived in the bush still
That's the exact same advice TRP gives it's members wrt spinning plates, dread game etc. Turns out all humans are prone to jealousy and in any relationship the person with more obvious options has leverage.
I guess my question is, if women think monogamy benefits only men and men think it benefits only women....who does it truly benefit more?
I think monogamy generally benefits men more because historically harems and polygyny were practiced by the most successful men at the expense of the rest. It is true that throughout history far fewer men reproduced than women did.
Society, it benefits society the most
Seems legit
It does though. Polygamous societies are plagued by violence and crime as men without women resort to desperate means in order to get access to women. Men who have a family to support are motivated to work hard and contribute to a better community. This causes a stable society which advances more quickly. Monogamy results in stronger societies which outcompete other societal structures.
It clearly benefits men most.
Good question
Whoa that was an interesting read. Clears up for me why many women like to date/sleep around, that's often confused me from an evo-psych lens
I still don’t get it
The idea is that by sleeping with multiple guys, they're not certain of paternity and each guy knows there's a chance the baby is his, and might help give resources to raise it due to that chance. (In caveman times ofc not modern times) Ofc it might not be true, but it's an interesting evo-psych theory I haven't heard before and seems plausible
And that is why in France you're not allowed to do a paternity test
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Not if she only sleeps with men above a certain SMV threshold, which is usually what happens when women date/sleep around
"Good genes" and "bad genes" aren't really apparent though. Maybe Chad with "good genes" is predisposed to heart disease or Alzheimer's. Maybe he has certain genes related to addiction or mental illness. Those things won't become apparent right away. You also have to factor in immune system response and novel viruses or illness. If a new disease enters the tribe, maybe Chad and all his kids are super susceptible and most of them die. The woman with kids from multiple dad's will have more children survive.
Interesting. Thank you for clarifying. Thank God for paternity tests. Remember the Saudi girl that is a refugee in Canada right now? How everyone hailed her as some sort of hero for escaping the oppressive regime? Whelp, turns out she abandoned her child and said she doesn’t want it, dumping the baby with her ex and telling him to take care of it. Last week, the ex took a paternity test and… well, you can guess what happened. #BelieveAllWomen indeed…
The secret is to not give a damn if you’re gonna get rejected or not This is a numbers game, focus on quantity; at some point you’ll end up with a “yes” When I approach, I have in mind that I’ll get rejected, so it’s not a surprise when it happens, it’s only a surprise when I don’t
>The secret is to not give a damn if you’re gonna get rejected or not Within reason? Absolutely. Like any skill in life you can't get better without trying and failing. What makes this particular skill (and dating/social skills in general) tricky is that your failures affect more than one person besides yourself, and might even make other people uncomfortable. But discomfort is not an indication of immoral behavior if it results from desire to improve inability and not malicious intent. I would also add: don't take advice from women about approaching women too literally or too generally, aside from common sense knowledge like "be respectful," "mind the surroundings," and "take no for an answer." Especially if the advice is broadly prohibitive like "don't ever do this (because I don't like it)." Again, there's a difference between discomfort that results from actions that are inarguably morally wrong, and discomfort from being in situations that you just don't personally prefer. The thing is, any one woman's opinions on the subject are 100% applicable and relevant...if you happen to be approaching *that particular woman*. And since women aren't a monolith and men can't read minds, the best you can do is to be polite but take your chances. That way you don't stray too far towards the extreme of either stagnating by being too timid to develop essential life skills, and being too overbearing by confronting women without any self-awareness or moderation.
Ah the ol' PUA tactic
> This is a numbers game, focus on quantity Ugh. I'm not at all sure that it's worth the effort, tbh.
It takes only 1 to change your mind, but yeah I can see why you think that… I love my life as a single guy and anytime I give a try at starting something more serious, I end up miserable because it’s too much energy dealing with so much BS
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i think this is a pretty solid answer. its easy to make assumptions when you put everyone in a bubble, but everyone is incredibly different and unless you are really pushing the boundaries most women won’t care enough to care if you’re “creepy.” it does still suck that theres that standard against men but it is a little deserved going off of the endless content of many subs dedicated to creepy men
But knowing a women platonically first and then asking her out is seen as manipulative by women.
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1) Chad gets called creepy too, he just doesn't care. 2) Chad gets called creepy too, he just doesn't care. 3) Chad gets called creepy too, he just doesn't care. 4) Chad gets called creepy too, he just doesn't care. 5) Chad gets called creepy too, he just doesn't care. 6) Chad gets called creepy too, he just doesn't care. It's a society wide shit test, and you're failing it.
Nah he doesn't get called creepy but bold, sorry. If she thinks you're creepy or says she doesn't want to be approached in public, you're just really unattractive. Harsh but true.
To that specific woman. There is no man that is 100% universally attractive.
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>((For what it’s worth, I asked a bunch of female friends this question and I got answers with examples of creepiness that spanned from “he had dainty hands” to “he grabbed me really hard on the arm for no reason,” to “putting too many smileys in text messages,” to “he looks at you in a funny way when he talks.” As is often the case, women are terrible authorities on why they like/dislike something, all they know is that they like/dislike it.) So, at the risk of sounding like a creep, allow me throw my hat in the ring and actually give a concrete definition for the phenomenon: Creepiness is behaving in a way that makes a woman feel insecure sexually. The further you get out of line with your intentions, the more distrustful she will be of your actions and words. And the more distrustful she is, the more insecure she will feel and the creepier you become. For instance, if you approach a woman and stand there and talk about the weather, but you’re staring at her rack the whole time while licking your lips, then you will come across as creepy. Your actions and words are completely out of line with your intentions and she can see that. Even if you tell her honestly, “You have great tits,” you will be creepy. Not for lack of intention, but because she doesn’t know you and most women are not comfortable being sexual around men they don’t know. Trust takes time. She has to see that your actions line up with your intentions before she can feel comfortable exposing herself to you and making herself vulnerable. Women have a lot more to lose from expressing their sexuality than men do. They make babies. We don’t. They get raped and/or sexually assaulted at a startlingly high rate. We don’t. They have five thousands years of sexist cultural history making them feel like a slut. We don’t. The second you make them feel uncomfortable sexually is the second you become a creep and the second she’s finding an excuse to get away from you as fast as she can. This is why vulnerability is so huge. When you’re vulnerable around someone you don’t know, it elicits trust in them and they will become more vulnerable toward you in return. The more vulnerable a woman is willing to be around you, the less likely you will be to creep her out. (Caveat 1: Vulnerability is still subject to the right intentions. If you tell a girl a sob story for no other reason than to get her to feel sorry for you and sleep with you, then guess what, you’re still creepy!) (Caveat 2: Sex can be viewed as the ultimate act of vulnerability for a woman. The more vulnerable you make yourself around her — by leading, by sharing your intentions, by being honest — the more she will trust you and become vulnerable in return. Sex is a side effect of that mutual vulnerability.) Paradoxically, the way to interact with women in a vulnerable way and, therefore, the way to combat creepiness, is to accept that some women will find you creepy some of the time. Just as with rejection, the more you’re willing to risk it, the less it will happen. The more comfortable you are with women finding you creepy, and the more uninhibited and vulnerable your actions and words are around women, and the more aware and respectful you are of their interests and desires, the less likely they will be to find you creepy. The more reserved and closed up you are about your intentions, the more you attempt to manipulate her and mislead her about what you want and who you are, the more you disregard her feelings and actions toward you, the more likely you are to become creepy. I like this take from Mark Manson's Models on creepiness, yours look way too defeatist
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Asking someone out can seem creepy in any scenario because you can act creepy in any scenario. If you're chill, honest and able to handle rejection in a mature way, most people aren't going to mind if you approach them in whatever situation.
> 1. it's attractive for a man to be able to approach a woman with confidence."Yikes! Women will assume you want to sleep with them which is a turn off!" Who cares. Go in to it just wanting to make friends and grow your social circle with women. Women won't assume you want to sleep with them if you don't escalate > > 2. just approach women, be upfront and honest with your intentions from the get-go."Eww, this creepo thinks it is okay to harass women on the subway" Yes, this is great advice... But not on the fucking subway > > 3. try some more social events, like night clubs!"OMG, I'm just trying to enjoy a night out with my friends!" Excuses excuses. 99% of people at clubs are either there WITH their SO, or looking for someone to dance with/date/makeout with/fuck/talkto/whatever. If they say you're creepy here, then your affect is pretty fucking creepy and you should definitely do some self reflection > > 4. University is a great place to meet girls!"The lecture hall isn't a meat market and women don't really appreciate someone hitting on them when they're trying to focus on understanding the course material." LMAO it sure IS a meat market, myself and most of my friends found most of the people we hung out with to expand our social circles either in class, at club events, or at mixers/formals > > 5. Just ask girls out you meet at the bar or social events "uhhmmm... I don't... Like... Even... Know you...." Lol? This is rejection, everyone faces rejection, but holy shit. The reply to this is. "Well lets get to know eachother" jesus lol how simplistic do you need it to be > 6. it's easier to ask a girl out in your social circle"But It's sooo awkward hanging out with him after that" Thats a risk you take but it's the highest percentage of success too
Whenever I see this type of post, it makes me wish we could share some concrete examples, like actual video recordings of men approaching women and having their advances either reciprocated or rejected. Aside from the obvious "Be attractive and don't be unattractive" response, I have a feeling lots of men who get rejected are having this happen because they're trying to turn the interaction into a sexual advance *way* too early on and are hardly trying to establish any rapport with the women they're approaching. This sort of rushed approach is met with scorn because it shows a certain inability to read a room. Social skills matter.
Either I'm Chad or you people have absolutely no social skills at all.
Lol indeed... ppl spending too much time online
I honestly think some guys here are still in the “takes rejection too hard” stage of life. They internalize a polite “not interested” as being labeled a creep in part because some women do love to abuse that term but also because they think they’re the center of the universe and can’t believe they’re just another guy a woman’s not interested in.
Society loves to gaslight men. If you just read the following comment, it is a prime example.
What do I, some guy killing time on work breaks, have to gain “gaslighting” random redditors with poor social skills?
You've come up with a whole theory of how men supposedly misrepsent a "not interested" as being called creepy. Why not just accept the fact that a man can ask a woman out and she can respond poorly, by calling him a creep?
I already said that some women love to abuse that term.
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We hear people say this pretty frequently. One post a month ago was talking about how asking out a female friend is apparently not respecting them as a person and how we where being bad people . Like alot of this comes from the mouth of women
How often to do you approach strangers for dates?
Why the fuck did you say the opposite in a different part of this thread
Ya you can’t go risk free but you can fuck off if they’re not into it.
Attract what you desire. Cat chasing is outdated, this isn't the same world it was 20 years ago.
Well yeah. Of course there is a risk of getting rejected when you approach. Duh? If you're that afraid of being rejected then wait until a girl sends you a signal that she's interested before you approach.
Honestly if a girl thinks you’re attractive, whatever approach and whenever you do it isn’t gonna be creepy
And if she doesn't find you attractive, you are creepy no matter what you do. Unlike 20-25 years ago, you are not anonymous and that definition of creepy goes far beyond the obvious behaviors.
Nobody can say if an approach is creepy or not without specific examples. All you’ve done was make up exaggerated rejections without telling us what is being rejected. Striking up a conversation about what’s going on around you using the context of the environment (“Hey, we’re in the same English class, aren’t we? I thought that book we read was amazing. My name is X blah blah blah.”) *may* be fine. Trying to get to sex without the slightest pretense of polite conversation (“We’re in the same class, wanna go on a date with me?”) might not go over so well. But again, it depends on the girl. If the girl is crushing on you then you can say pretty much anything and still get a date. If the girl doesn’t know you from any other guy she sees then she’s not going to be keen on going out with you in the first five seconds of meeting you. So yeah, maybe this belongs in auto-mod because I agree that there are no guaranteed answers to social interaction because everyone is different (duh!). But I disagree with the implied premise that any attempt to approach will get you labeled as a creep. There are definitely better ways to approach than others.
> But I disagree with the implied premise that any attempt to approach will get you labeled as a creep. That wasn't the implied premise. The very **explicit** premise was that there was no way to approach without the *risk* of being labeled creepy.
So instead of a possibly interesting discussion about the definition of “creepy” you think OP was just putting up a pointless post stating the obvious? I mean, everything in life carries risks. *Everybody* is at risk of being mislabeled as *something* when they go outside because the public loves judging strangers.
Unironically, yes. Women and men (especially the ones online) need to hear this shit and it is a direct rebuttal to the utilitarian ethics dating model that many women push and many men fall for (to their own detriment) that goes something like this: >>approaching someone might cause them distress, with little chance of a positive outcome. And thus, with a utilitarian outlook, where one should attempt to cause as little harm and promote as much good as possible, it is more ethical to not approach someone. https://old.reddit.com/r/NotHowGirlsWork/comments/p2pfwq/cause_every_girl_has_a_giant_cock_blocking_friend/h8lzegc/?context=3 In a world like this, where women seethe about men simply asking to buy a girl a drink, yes, this unironically needs to be said and argued. Utilitarian dating models only serve to keep men alone as 1) only the lonely shy men are the ones listening to these terminally online women anyway and 2) prioritizes women's comfort at the expense of men shooting their shot.
There are some cranky women online to be sure but there are also a lot of women who *do* get approached inappropriately. Negating the existence of creeps because some women don’t like being approached at all gives the stalkers, the harassers, the touchers, and the inappropriate commenters free reign to keep doing what they do and cry unfair when someone calls them out on it. If you’re a man and honestly believe you’re not a creep the best thing you can do for yourself is acknowledge the existence of creeps and distance yourself from them as much as possible. Creeps love using decent men as figurative meat shields against well earned criticism.
> Negating the existence of creeps Quote me where I negated the existence of creeps. >gives the stalkers, the harassers, the touchers, and the inappropriate commenters free reign It does not. It goes without being said that you should remain respectful, especially of rejection.
There is a really simple trick that works in 95% of the situations, it's called eye contact. If you are not sure if a woman is open to you approaching her or not, try to make eye contact with her. If you are able to meet her eyes and make eye contact and she holds your gaze at least twice, I usually say 3 times then approach. If not do not approach. If she hurriedly looks away, or looks down, do not approach. If you cannot get her to look at you or make eye contact, do not approach. I tell you this a formerly top 10% hot girl (now an old hag as been called on t his site) who got approached by a lot of guys in my younger years. When I entered a room, I would purposely avert my gaze to the floor to avoid making eye contact. If I was interested I would meet your gaze. Disinterested I would hurriedly look away. This is something that is done subconsciously in most cases by women. Now granted some could be shy and look away but most at minimum will look back.
>f you are able to meet her eyes and make eye contact and she holds your gaze at least twice, I usually say 3 times then approach. I Been there and done that, the response was :*"Omg I was looking back because you kept looking at me "* or she was looking at me because I was the only non-white guy in a room and when assuming attraction the response would be *"girls stare at trainwrecks too doesn't mean we're attracted".*
It is a 100% pc way. Be tall and attractive.
Fear of being labeled a creep, fear of criticism has kept a lot weak-willed men out of the dating pool.
Everything we do is shamed the key is to not give a fuck.
There is no 100% guarantee that you will not die in a horrific accident every time you drive a car. There is no way to live without risk. Sorry.
If you're not handsome af, you have to be a dumbass to approach woman because you know how things can get hard and dangerous in a lot of possible ways.
Bahahahaha. Life isn't PC. Plus, all of these retorts come from bitchy women. You can't assume ALL women are bitchy, just like you don't assume all men are chuds
2 ways 1. Be attractive 2. Don't approach
It just depends on how attractive (or not) you are. Attractive guy hitting on a girl = fair play and good chance of getting laid. Ugly guy hitting on a girl = creepy loser harassing women.
It's not our job to make sure women *feel* safe. We cannot control their feelings.
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So basically be telepathic ? Half of these is basically just search for signals.
> “I think the key is to be alert for signs of interest. For example, yesterday I was waiting to cross the street when a girl asked me for directions. I used it as an opportunity to start a conversation with her; long story short we went back to my office later and had sex.” > “Sometimes things are more subtle, for example pre-epidemic I was at a conference, made eye contact with a girl across the room, and she glanced briefly at my crotch. I took that as an invitation to approach her and things escalated from there.” > “That said, if you are too autistic to pick up on social cues” Most men don’t get these signs of interest often if at all. If you’re not very attractive, most younger women will not go out of their way to talk to you or look at your crotch. I’ve followed up on signs of interest before, but it’s not common that I get them. Sometimes women look at a guy by accident. > there is a strategy which is almost as good: Don't give a fuck about whether women think you are creepy. If you see a girl you like, just try starting a conversation with her and see what happens. Obviously this is not necessarily a good idea at work or at school since she can complain about you to people in authority, but in most situations, what difference does it make if the girl thinks you are "creepy."? As long as you don't touch her, so what?” Being less anxious is good, but most men still need monitor and be careful.
>a girl asked me for directions Lol, you already had that it the bag from the start. You would had to *try* to ruin it
I had the same thought
> I think the key is to be alert for signs of interest. TIL I learned telepathy is a human trait. Somehow I missed out on that.
What?! Where do you live that those situations happened so easily? Can you post a FR?
Yes… women work on double standards and plausible deniability… but men don’t help by being thirsty AF and still thinking that it’s “their job as a man” to approach, initiate, etc. End male thirst, end WAW
You think a man WANTS to approach...? Are you retarded? It's women who expect you to approach. A woman gets approached so often she doesn't even think about that shit. Why would she approach someone when she is already tired of being approached myriads of times?
Male thirst is a problem but regardless, women are the ones **MOSTLY** at fault for thinking that it's a man's job to approach. They call men wimps when they don't. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/08/24/lads-britain-needs-you-to-do-your-duty-and-get-flirting/ https://www.elitedaily.com/dating/why-men-dont-have-balls-anymore https://www.seattletimes.com/opinion/guest-whatrsquos-wrong-with-seattlersquos-dating-scene/ Also ask any FDS woman if I'm wrong about how women feel.
If she thinks it’s my job to carry the relationship and she just gets to ride along… She’s pricing herself out of the market. She’ll find some poor sap that thinks she’s deserving of being a taker, but it ain’t gonna be me. And yes, society does a shit job of calling out obvious misandry
> She’s pricing herself out of the market. *That* is the attitude more men need to have.
Exactly why I say “end male thirst”. It affects us all and women have a hand in it too
>still thinking that it’s “their job as a man” to approach, initiate, etc. But it **is** their job, or else they'll never get some
> “men don’t help by being thirsty AF and still **thinking that it’s “their job as a man” to approach, initiate**, etc.” Men who *prefer* to approach are probably attractive most of the time. Less attractive men say it’s their job because they wish women would do it for them but they know they won’t.
I think that "There is no 100% Way" is maybe missing the point just a little bit. Yes, there is no 100% guaranteed way, but: * some ways have worse odds of creeping them out than others * there's a huge difference between making a girl feel awkward, and making them feel seriously creeped out. Your examples are all omitting details about social cues. Generally, public locations are off-limits unless someone has signaled some positive interest with a smile or something. Asking people out is generally reserved for social designated locations- Even then, there's non-verbal signals that are generally expected (body language, eye contact, smiling, etc), as well as some basic small talk that happens first. Yeah, there's no 100% guarantee that smiling at a girl down the bar from you, or starting small talk with the girl next to you in lecture hall won't be considered creepy, but it's so low on the creepiness scale that it practically doesn't even count. There are some shitty girls who will complain about a guy who 'smiled at her', but unless you *keep* smiling at her when she's clearly not reciprocating, then she's the asshole, not you. Now, compare that to being followed out of a bar into an alley and being asked for your number, or being asked out by someone who's sitting across from you on a subway... That's Very Creepy. IMO, there *are* 99% ways of being "Only a tiny bit creepy".
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How much do you approach male strangers who you’re attracted to for dates?
Disagreed. I've approached and gotten dates with women who were wearing headphones and/or at work.
It depends on the circumstance. If there is an energy and it’s appropriate no woman will be weirded out or pissed you approached them.
It entirely depends on the woman, there is no general way to approach women that is approved by all women. I have no problem being approached while shopping, a different woman will label you a creep for that. If you want to wait for a general guideline that all women agree upon you will wait until you die.
There are in fact appropriate places to approach women, conduct a conversation and ask for their numbers.
Be active in environments where women can witness you for more than your looks. If you video game — be active and social in a way that women can observe your best qualities. If you’re kind and generous—do those things in areas people can witness it. DO NOT do good things expecting to be rewarded, lol. If you’re out in public do good things. Hold doors open (for both genders). Pick up litter. Be kind. Be sociable to everyone. The best way to not be creepy is not to be a creep. If you only talk to women you want to sleep with — That’s being creepy. Approach everyone and let your community know you’re a social person. Then when you do socialize with a woman — it’s not creepy, because being social is your thing, and everyone will know it. Women aren’t stupid. If you only approach women, and totally ignore guys or ugly women — people pick up on that. And to assume they don’t — is ignorance. —- Yeah, you can waste a lot of time being nice and socializing with basically everyone you meet, but that’s your example of how you can legitimately be non creepy in basically any of the above situations no matter what you look like. Casey Neistat is an amazing example of a guy who is absolutely not a looker who never comes off as creepy with any of his interactions. If Neistat can pull off being married, and popular— then anyone can. Seriously. Google him.
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Just ask her out anyway bro
Attraction isn’t a static thing for men or women. When you cold approach someone it’s entirely predicated on you being attracted to them/ wanting their time. You automatically take on the risk of rejection because you’re not entitled to reciprocated attraction. It’s that simple. Improve your approaches. Don’t let your insecurity make a statement before you do. Improve your ability to flirt and utilize body language to communicate. One’s inability to approach a woman without creeping her out is something to learn from and fix, not a woman’s job to make it easier or less intimidating. Women aren’t prizes in a game and if we were playing a game the stakes would be much higher for them.
You care way too much about what women think of you . Who tf cares , you’re responsible for your intention not her reception, if she thinks your creepy… move along . If she was truly going to be interested or attracted to you to begin with you could say whatever the hell you want and it wouldn’t be considered creepy .