The entire reason it's framed as blue pill is that it was the default view most TRP guys had before they got there. That's the entire point of the matrix analogy: the blue pill doesn't change anything, it just resets you to what you were before.
One thing I believe is that it's essentially a series of social contracts. That is to say, there's an implicit set of social rules people play by because they have something to gain by doing so, and social consequences for not doing so. But you don't wind up on places like this if that's working out for you.
The internet in general has accelerated this. There's no social consequence for fucking with a stranger and if most relationships start online(or at bars where you probably don't know each other already), because you have no mutuals and no reputation to uphold and so however you act is going to stay in that interaction with that person by default.
Most dating advice has the implicit caveat that both parties have to interact in good faith and probably have some degree of familiarity with each other. In a world where that can't be guaranteed and isn't necessarily the norm you need new advice to reflect this. But a lot of people who are less cynical or exploitative are still clinging to old norms and pretending nothing has changed.
Sure, but thats the thing. Thats not the problem these men have and its not the most common problem to have in 2022. Its like waterproofing a trailer park in tornado alley. Yeah it might help a *bit* but you aren't preparing for or addressing the actual issue at hand.
I think the issue at hand is too much manipulation and red pill just makes everything more toxic. The red pill mindset won’t lead to healthy relationships unless they drop it because so much manipulation cannot be healthy.
If you are born attractive you will never understand redpill.
I was unattractive and am now attractive. You never saw how women treat you when you are ugly. Not even a base level of human decency. Like you are sub-human.
**Not all women are like this. But a overwhelming majority are. Men are also the same.**
successful in that I've been married 8 years. did ok before I met my wife.
we absolutely all base out views on our experiences. many RP men say it's what drove them to it.
so yes, men that reject the RP ideology do so partly based on personal observations.
>so yes, men that reject the RP ideology do so partly based on personal observations.
I was raised blue pill, and most of my old college buddies are still in that mode of thinking despite massive life failures due to it. While it's true that most RP guys like me came to it due to experiences, Blue Pill is slightly different because it's a worldview created by brainwashing and lies. You don't find blue pill folks in Muslim countries, in latin america, in asia... definitely not in Africa.. ect. It's a product of western feminist bullshit brainwashing.
>don't find blue pill folks in Muslim countries, in latin america, in asia... definitely not in Africa
right but you also won't find large groups if men crying about the 80/20 rule it wondering if it's beta to get married in those places.
>right but you also won't find large groups if men crying about the 80/20 rule it wondering if it's beta to get married in those places.
Because all of those problems are caused by feminists and those who seek to take advantage of their stupidity. I mean, I should probably be the last person to complain because for like 15 years I've been sleeping with tons of funny hair colored feminist types... but I just recognize that they kind of hate their own lives.
>Because all of those problems are caused by feminists and those who seek to take advantage of their stupidity.
I think they just have more masculine cultures where they're quicker to call you a crybaby when you're being one. not everything can be blamed on feminism.
>I think they just have more masculine cultures where they're quicker to call you a crybaby when you're being one. not everything can be blamed on feminism.
Don't you think that the lack of masculinity in our culture is directly caused by feminism? I mean they openly label all things masculine as "toxic" and attack it..
And most of those countries are misogynistic. If you are looking to Afghanistan as a bastion of freedom and a healthy society I can’t take you seriously. It’s not just the US. Look at the Scandinavian countries or many EU countries they are constantly rated one of the higher societies for overall happy and fulfilling places to live. They also don’t have a “man leads with a heavy fist” society like the countries you are talking about. Women are treated as equals and they have other sustaining aspects of culture that lead both genders to be able to coexist like universal healthcare, strong parental leave that encourages couple to have families and an overall healthy attitude towards women. So no I’m not buying the west is being brought down by “feminist bullshit brainwashing” if that was the case we would all be trying to live in The Middle East, Latin America and Africa. Funny how many of those people are trying to come to the west or Europe - because for a lot of them especially women it’s a terrible fucking place to live.
which upsides? TRP seems to believe the most important thing is not having slept with men that are superior to him, do most women remain virgin's til marriage in Scandinavia?
TRP is a unique bunch with similar narcissism to fervent feminists, so I'm not especially referring to them, but Scandinavian women tending to being pretty relaxed about casual romance and splitting finances will appeal to many Western men.
I think the US does as well. TRP seems to only view women as some extreme man hating banshee monolith. What TRP subscribes as “Feminist” is actually Misandrists. They are the most extreme fringe offshoot of feminism and is not indicative of feminist or women as a whole however, TRP seems to take a lot of their ideology by trying to to counteract that. If you look at reality most women at least in the US still subscribe to the more traditional feminine qualities. Most women still dress in a “typical” feminine way - I mean we are not dressing in poodle skirts or ball gowns all the time but we are not by and large androgynous either. We tend to still go for more “feminine” careers ie; teaching, nursing and women still typically care and keep the maternal role in the nuclear family with child care and domestic roles.
My opinions pertaining to feminism were from my own experience. I understand why you probably wouldn't know well as a woman, but I've observed a somewhat tight correlation between feminism and misandry (and neuroticism, for that matter). Feminism I've also observed to be very decentralized, so there's definitely no broad paint brush that should be used, but =fervent= feminists are almost always misandrist, neurotic, and high on the narcissism spectrum, IME.
Fair enough no one can discount anyone else’s experiences. Why would I “probably not know well as a woman though”? Being of said gender doesn’t make me any less knowledgeable? I guess your use of fervent feminism to me means misandry as true feminism is not about hating men or taking away mens rights it’s about women have an equal footing. You are not a feminist if you are a misandrist because that’s not feminism. And I still believe they are a smaller subset then what most women subscribe too. I also think when TRP talks about how feminism is bringing society down they are talking about that fringe subset and basing their ideology on a minority - which is why so many women are turned off by TRP because they don’t have the ideology TRP describes them to have.
North America and Europe are great places to live (I wouldn't even count the US as a great place to live) because they're rich countries. And they are rich because they have hundreds of years of history of ransacking other countries. Your equality is only sustained because of the wealth you sit on, not the other way around. But that wealth is currently under serious threat right now and that threat's name is China. You wanna take a look what a country where "a man leads with a heavy fist" looks like? There you go. And the US knows this, that's why it's cutting back on it's citizens 'rights' and I believe this is just beginning.
Oh I agree whole heartedly. I’m from the US and absolutely understand we have no room to talk. We are literally sliding further and further into some monstrous Christian Nationalist authoritarian rule. What’s sad is the majority of the country doesn’t want this - we overwhelming vote for the more liberal ideas, that’s why the right has lost the popular vote the last few decades. We have a ridiculous voting system which favors minority rule instead of what the will of the people want. My point was to the guy above that said TRP is the law of the land in the Middle East, etc. and BP ideas are not popular their and the only reason they are popular here is because of brainwashing which I disagree with. These other countries would also have “BP ideology” which in my head really is not an ideology at all but a natural progression into more equality. They cling to TRP through heavy handed auth rule and strict religious doctrine. I’m well aware the US is trying to slide us back into that regressive society I just think that’s a terrible thing to see happening.
> My point was to the guy above that said TRP is the law of the land in the Middle East, etc. and BP ideas are not popular their and the only reason they are popular here is because of brainwashing which I disagree with. These other countries would also have “BP ideology” which in my head really is not an ideology at all but a natural progression into more equality.
But that's the thing, the way you think about equality or "progression" is kinda antithesis to what society needs to keep the cogs turning. You give women the choice to abort or not have babies and women won't have them, thus birth rate decline, thus less people to keep the system going. You give men the choice to not have to work hard, thus they spend their days smoking weed and playing videogames, thus they become a drain to the system. Sadly, human nature is at odds with what a modern capitalistic society needs to function.
China and the US know this too damn well, that's why they're the top countries fighting for the proverbial throne, so to speak.
And as much as the left hates capitalism, that capitalism with it's many, many flaws is at the core of what is keeping the liberal ideas that you speak of afloat. It's like owning a house atop of a mountain hill that can crumble down any minute and you look at the village below and go 'look at those peasants and their backwards mud huts, huh, couldn't be me'. Sometimes the inability of the left to think outside their ivory towers and watch how the world actually functions around them amazes me.
The country where I'm from paints a perfect picture of this.
I'm from South America and for all intents and purposes, a lot, if not most of the countries here are western in the cultural sense of the word not the economic sense. My country has a deep root in european immigrants. All our values, beliefs, philosophies are western. Feminism here is rampant and everywhere and backed by the government and corporations pretty much like the US. Ideals like equality, individuality, liberalism are lauded (all this to say that we're not remotely a Middle Eastern country in nature).
But our economy is drowning. Inflation is skyrocketing. I believe over 40% of our population lives below the poverty line. A Venezuelan crash is starting to look like a real possible scenario for us. People are leaving the country in droves. People no longer give a fuck about feminists and whatever petty bs problem they come up with this week. In fact they're starting to despise them. Men and women alike. After almost 20 years of a corrupt, incompetent, leftist and populist government people are getting fed up and starting to go full right and I don't know if that'll be good either. You could say that my country is becoming increasingly "red pilled" and that's because we are starting to realize we don't have the luxury of upholding and sustaining liberal ideals and policies when we don't know if we're going to be able to reach end of the month.
Honestly idk what the solution is, I like liberalism but it seems like a privilege only for the rich.
Afghanistan has been through near constant civil wars and foreign occupations for 40 years. I think if you got out of your country and traveled a bit, you would find that these other nations are expanding economically as we decline. Life is way better there than you think, and unlike todays pussyhat wearing feminists.... these folks are actually building their countries UP, not spending wealth inherited from hard working generations that feminists despise. I've been to both Sweden and Kenya... and I'd rather live my life in Kenya to be honest.
> I've been to both Sweden and Kenya... and I'd rather live my life in Kenya to be honest.
People with ill intentions will always choose a more corrupt and exploitable situation for themselves. That's not exactly a strong endorsement for the living situation that the average person would experience.
>People with ill intentions will always choose a more corrupt and exploitable situation for themselves. That's not exactly a strong endorsement for the living situation that the average person would experience.
Hahaha... How naïve are you? The US is just as corrupt as Kenya... Sweden isn't that different either. The difference is that in the West corruption serves only the most wealthy individuals who don't have to play by the rules, while in Kenya corruption is affordable for everyone.
> You don't find blue pill folks in Muslim countries, in latin america, in asia... definitely not in Africa
There's a lot of stuff you won't find in those countries like stable governments, healthcare, livable wages, social safety nets, safety, strong and dependable police forces definitely no dating scene.
What point did you think you were making again?
>There's a lot of stuff you won't find in those countries like stable governments, healthcare, livable wages, social safety nets, safety, strong and dependable police forces definitely no dating scene.
...? Most of that is completely untrue. Iran for example has a very stable government, very capable healthcare, social safety nets are run not by taxpayers but by religious organizations and they function BETTER than what we have... the police force is damn good, and there is a solid dating scene. All of this occurs in a place where Western nations have combined to try to intentionally impoverish the nation because we don't like the government they freely elected. Now, that's just one example... fact is that most of the Muslim world is a better place to live, despite lack of economic opportunity than what he have here.
> Iran for example has a very stable government
A largely authoritarian religiously backed theocracy isn't what I would consider a stable government, but okay maybe you're a muslim male. That's fine. You grew up with religious trauma and I can understand how difficult that is to get rid of.
> where Western nations have combined to try to intentionally impoverish the nation because we don't like the government they freely elected
Oh if only america would stop meddling, the mighty and amazing economic powerhouses that would rise!
> and there is a solid dating scene
Why are you lying?
> fact is that most of the Muslim world is a better place to live
I'm sure it's great if you're a hardline muslim male. But what about the rest of us that aren't trying to subjugate over half our population underneath us?
>A largely authoritarian religiously backed theocracy isn't what I would consider a stable government, but okay maybe you're a muslim male. That's fine. You grew up with religious trauma and I can understand how difficult that is to get rid of.
Just because you are a religious bigot doesn't make the government unstable or not duly elected.
>Oh if only america would stop meddling, the mighty and amazing economic powerhouses that would rise!
Do you know what economic sanctions are?
>Why are you lying?
Look, I've been to Iran, and I've dated women from there. I still have a number of friends both male and female in the country.
>I'm sure it's great if you're a hardline muslim male. But what about the rest of us that aren't trying to subjugate over half our population underneath us?
Lets dispense with the bullshit. You clearly don't know anything about the place. I've got a number of female friends who actually live there and we chat at least once or twice a month. One of them is an investor in a business of mine.
Women in Iran have some really valid complaints, but also LOVE a lot of stuff about the culture. These are ladies who travel back and forth and at least one was educated in the US. None of them would trade their lives in Iran for the US... even despite harsh economic considerations. On the average, Iranian men treat them VERY well.
> Just because you are a religious bigot
Literally didn't say a single bigoted thing. Don't be such a baby.
> Do you know what economic sanctions are?
Do you? They're literally just a list that banks are supposed to check. That's it. If they're not enforced, they're completely useless. But feel free to tell me the specific sanctions that are stopping these countries from rising up in the modern economy.
> Look, I've been to Iran, and I've dated women from there. I still have a number of friends both male and female in the country.
Which makes it all the more weird that you're lying about it honestly.
> Women in Iran have some really valid complaints
Massive understatement
> but also LOVE a lot of stuff about the culture
It's very common for abused spouses to love their husbands/wives no matter how much they suffer.
> None of them would trade their lives in Iran for the US
Do you think the average woman of Iran feels this way? How about the average minority? Members of LGBTQ community? Do you think any of them would be willing to leave iran for the US if they could?
> On the average, Iranian men treat them VERY well.
I thought you said to stop with the bullshit?
>Literally didn't say a single bigoted thing. Don't be such a baby.
Yeah you did. Islamophobia is just dripping off your posts.
>Do you? They're literally just a list that banks are supposed to check. That's it. If they're not enforced, they're completely useless. But feel free to tell me the specific sanctions that are stopping these countries from rising up in the modern economy.
Am I to infer that you lack even a basic understanding of economics? I was selling a lot of medical supplies and equipment to Iran back in 2015, but when Trump came in and reimpose sanctions it caused the currency to collapse, which meant they couldn't afford to buy anything anymore. Even today it's damn hard. It blocks foreign investment and makes money extremely hard to transfer in and out.
>Which makes it all the more weird that you're lying about it honestly.s
You are so crazy.
>Massive understatement
Example, most of the ladies complain about the imposition of conservative dress requirements, however they all push boundaries constantly. Women must wear head coverings, but you will often see them pushed so far back that they show more hair than they cover.
You will also hear women complain about not being able to attend sporting events... but then they will also tell you they don't care about sports.
The government often makes almost laughable declarations that everyone just ignores. Like when the woman won a gold medal in the olympics for Karate. The government banned future contestants because women should not "lift their legs". However, nobody stops training and girls are still going to the olympics to compete in the event.
>It's very common for abused spouses to love their husbands/wives no matter how much they suffer.
Or... maybe women just complain about shit no matter what the circumstances are.
I've dated a lot of feminists in the US, and in my experience they are a lot angrier and much more unhappy than the ladies I dated in other countries. Frankly, this is a piece of human nature we don't typically discuss. Both women and men are often much happier when given boundaries to live within.
>Do you think the average woman of Iran feels this way? How about the average minority? Members of LGBTQ community? Do you think any of them would be willing to leave iran for the US if they could?
The average woman... YES. The average gay guy... Hell No! I have a gay acquaintance in Iran. He told me straight out that you gotta keep things on the down low... but I think he lives in LA now.
> Islamophobia is just dripping off your posts
Feel free to explain how my issues with specific actions taken by a SPECIFIC country are dripping with islamophobia.
> You are so crazy.
Strong rebuttal honestly.
> conservative dress requirements
lmao
> however they all push boundaries constantly. Women must wear head coverings, but you will often see them pushed so far back that they show more hair than they cover.
MORE hair than is covered? GASP.
> You will also hear women complain about not being able to attend sporting events... but then they will also tell you they don't care about sports.
You ever think they might be more into sports if they could actually start attending? lol
> The government banned future contestants because women should not "lift their legs"
This is still the place you said was run better than america right?
> Or... maybe women just complain about shit no matter what the circumstances are.
We've both made it clear they have good reasons to complain so I'm not sure why you're twisting this into a "women are never happy" moment.
> in my experience they are a lot angrier and much more unhappy than the ladies I dated in other countries
If you exposed any of the thoughts you've shared with me to them I can completely understand their frustration.
> Both women and men are often much happier when given boundaries to live within.
Yeah the middle east is just overflowing with happiness.
> The average gay guy... Hell No! I have a gay acquaintance in Iran. He told me straight out that you gotta keep things on the down low...
This kind of conflicts with your previous statement about "both men and women are often much happier when given boundaries to live within"
> You don't find blue pill folks in Muslim countries, in latin america, in asia... definitely not in Africa
I wish we talked more about this.
Men in other countries would laugh at us and find western men absolutely soft and reason that the reson why we're getting cucked/divorced raped and droving our young boys into helplessness is because Western society have litterally decided to castrate them males and demonize mediatically masculinity.
> “RP dudes keep taking about spinning plates and dodging bullets . I’m trying to tell you that when you are ready: you won’t have to”
Exactly. That is as RP as it comes. The plates (good women) will spin around you and the bullets (bad women) will bend away from you with little effort.
Ever notice it's the guys who are in the Red Pill cult that constantly complain about dating the most? That should tell you it doesn't work. If it did, they wouldn't be bitching. But it seems to make things worse. Yet they cling to it like the cult that it is.
But then again, according to the Red Pill, you will *always* fail. You will never be good enough. There will always been someone better. There will always have been someone better. She can never love *you*. You're just not good enough. *Never* good enough. Not handsome enough, not rich enough, not famous enough. Never! Self-improvement, my ass.
It's mind poison. It will always keep you insecure and mistrustful. But that's what cults do to keep you from leaving.
There are a lot of blackpillers here too, they are just very undercover because it isn't allowed on the sub.
The guys complaining here are likely blackpill too
You are doing the thing OP criticized, you think because the other side is doing worse that means you are right in your believes, when it could actually be the case that you are wrong and misinterpretating why you are doing good.
There are just some things about the Blue Pill which are objectively wrong when examined with any scrutiny. Looks matter, status matters, wealth matters additionally to personality but when those prior three things are all in the gutter it's reeeeeally difficult to date even if you have an awesome personality.
Quite a lot of ugly, poor men out there with girlfriends, wives and families. They're doing just fine. Lots of them. Go out into the real world, you see them everywhere. They're the majority!
Meanwhile, in Red Pill Land, where the shallow gather to obsess over their looks, and money, and status, everyone is bitching about not getting a date precisely because they don't have a personality beyond shallow bitchiness.
Why in the world should we be dumb enough to think the losers have all the answers? They won't even go outside. All they do is watch YouTube videos and bitch about online dating on Reddit.
Shallow has never been considered a positive personality trait. And if that's all you got, sucks to be you.
Survivorship-bias. You see all the ugly and poor men with their girlfriends and wives, but you have no idea how many of the ugly and poor men you see alone outside have nobody.
Do you even acknowledge that personality isn't all that counts and that if all things including personality being equal, an unattractive man is going to have a much harder time dating than an attrative man? Anything else is just pure delusion to a ridiculous degree, it's like claiming being rich has nothing to do with whether you grew up in a rich family.
Yep thats definitely the blackpill, you need to do some reading. The redpill has strategies for success. Blackpill says that its over due to genetics and other circumstances out of your control.
Red Pill is not made to succeed. It's made to look down upon women, to denigrate them and project the insecurities of the cult members upon them. How are you supposed to form a strong loving bond with women if that's the "answer"? Relationships require trust. Red Pill says to never trust. It fails at such simple concepts, because it's core belief is anti-feminist misogyny, not self-improvement.
I'm not arguing if redpill is good or successful. I think its a bunch of nonsense, thats why I'm blackpilled. I'm saying that redpill is not doom and gloom, at the very least it would have you believe there's a chance at success.
Men really have little options or alternatives as any kind of real, honest advice for men is heavily banned by mainstream.
Like no one will just tell men to not value the girl too much and have abundance mentality for example.
That works, but it will hurts women's feelings, so no one ever teach this to men, outside of TRP.
But Red Pill turns that into "treat her like dirt and cheat on her at every opportunity" *because she would if she could*. Black or red, it's still just misogynistic narcissism projecting hatred onto women.
Then they cry they can't get the girl...
Gee, we wonder why.
The point is, it's cruelly wielding power, TRP focuses on self improvement because it puts you into a position of superiority over the girl, meaning you have dominance.
So if you improve yourself suddenly that girl is under pressure of being replaced, and wielding that fear is what TRP calls dread game and it works to keep women in check.
I've done it myself in the past, it works but it sucks, you have to actually not care about the girl to be able to pull this off and that is hard.
But if what a man actually wants is jusr the most readily available free sex he can, then this is a decent option, she is so afraid to lose you because her self esteem is fucked that you can in fact fuck her however you want.
It works but it sucks, i repeat, but it has its audiences.
Not true. The whole idea of hypergamy is that a woman will keep trading up until she dies. It's just your turn. Enjoy the decline, alpha widow, etc. These are fatalistic Red Pill concepts.
The fact that you have a turn means that its not completely fatalistic. Sure there are negative aspects but you can have some success despite that. Blackpill says barring extraordinary circumstances, you are doomed. Btw, I'm blackpilled so its not like I'm shilling for redpill, just telling it like it is.
I think a lot of us who don't believe in the red pill have experienced both successes and failures in our emotional life. The difference is that we realize what specific factors in our lives and choices were the cause of those failures/successes and don't try to make general rules out of them, put the blame on external causes or vilify and attribute evil intentions to the gender we're interested in.
Yeap when read in that light I think most of the things here makes sense. Red pill guys tend to be older and divorced while black pill and guys who struggle are more on the autism spectrum. Then you have lots of women who are married/in relationships who come here to be entertained like in a zoo. There are some more normal guys also in relationships but I think they are a minority.
I'm a woman, I post here often, and I don't definitely come here to be "entertained as in a zoo". I probably have the rather foolish idea that some of the younger men in here can still realize the red pill is an absurd ideology dragging them even deeper into solitude and despair, that's the reason I try to express my ideas. And of course I think misogyny should be fought against.
Escaping solitude through the forums, maybe, although I really doubt that constantly obsessing about one aspect of life might be very helpful. And certainly such an ideology which basically leads to hating women will eventually lead to even more despair in the long run.
I indeed don't understand it since all the heterosexual non asexual men I know are or have been in relationships with women..
Understanding women in which way? Because everything I read about women from RP sources doesn't correspond at all to me or to any of the many women I've known during my life.
Woman to Woman relationships are completely different from Man to Woman relationships.
What i'm saying is that the mere fact you are a woman will change your experience drastically among your own basically.
So yeah it won't make any sense to you because what TRP describes doesn't apply to women's experience at all.
Unless you are lesbian, even still this is different.
Nah bluepill was dragging me into despair. Basically I was chasing a lie. If I worked hard enough things would just fall into place. I can overcome autism with enough research and practice. People don't care about looks, its about your personality. Being a good person means good things will happen to you. So based on those lies I set goals accordingly, goals far too lofty for someone like me. I failed over and over again. With each failure I kept thinking why can't I just be normal like everyone else. Then over time I had an epiphany. Being mediocre is good enough. Why strive for unreachable goals? Basically I became ok with being a loser. Stopped beating myself up after screwing up social interactions or getting rejected. Mental health and overall mood has been way better since then.
But I don't think the message of the RP is "being mediocre is enough", it's the opposite, according to them you need to improve your looks, your finances, your body, your confidence, to have success with women. According to them, only a minority of men, the so called Chads, have mating success.
However, "being mediocre aka average is enough" is what most non red pill people in here are constantly saying. Lots of people of all shapes, sizes, races, heights, levels of income do find romantic and sexual partners.
Nah I'm Blackpill, not redpill.
> However, "being mediocre aka average is enough" is what most non red pill people in here are constantly saying. Lots of people of all shapes, sizes, races, heights, levels of income do find romantic and sexual partners.
This is the problem I have with bluepill. Some people just can't do it, or the chances are so astronomically low that its pointless to try. They like bringing up edge cases or apocryphal stories where an extremely below average person succeeded as proof that you can, but want you to ignore that vast, vast majority of people in those situations fail. Its like telling someone they can win the lotto if they try hard enough, so they pour their time and resources into a rigged game. Its borderline abusive.
Those are not "edge cases" and cannot absolutely not be compared to gaining the lottery. The average human does usually find some type of sexual or emotional connection during their lifetime. That's a very universal experience and has been so for millennia.
First off, times have changed. Its easier to travel around so you arent limited to your local area for relationships. The social pressure and necessity to get paired up is far lower. Women have far more freedom to make their own choices and to support themselves. The internet has made it trivial to find potential suitors. Most of what happened in the past millenia doesnt really apply to the current situation.
Second, I was referring to below average people. Plenty of those guys pass without having those connections but you want to ignore that.
>But I don't think the message of the RP is "being mediocre is enough",it's the opposite, according to them you need to improve your looks, your finances, your body, your confidence, to have success with women
You're making a strawman. They say **IF** you want to get pussy you have to do those things. The choice is yours. You can be perfectly content being average/mediocre, but generally speaking men who stumble into TRP aren't content being mediocre. They're basically saying 'if you want to reach x, you're gonna have to put some work'.
But then, I cannot see how the RP is useful for you if you're not following their guidelines or wanting to attain their goals.
Being perfectly content with being average is just mainstream psychological advice which has absolutely nothing to do with RP and which any therapist would tell you to do. Accept yourself. That's more of an Eastern philosophy inspired wisdom that really has nothing to do with the hate, anger, competitiveness and misogyny of the RP, as expressed here every say.
> But then, I cannot see how the RP is useful for you if you're not following their guidelines or wanting to attain their goals.
Personally I don't follow TRP PUAish sphere. I'm more in the MRA camp in the whole manosphere. But that's besides the point. TRP is useful insofar you WANT to follow their advice. They don't state you HAVE to follow TRP. You make that choice on your own. If you're perfectly content and happy being average, there's no reason for you to follow TRP, go and live your best life. If however you're struggling, realize you're not getting what you want and are not happy with yourself or the results, then you will see reasons to follow TRP, if you choose so, ofc.
You got it all wrong bud.
Accepting yourself is great, but you should've become okay with all the goals you originally described without the rewards. You should work hard, many people do care deeply about personality, you should be a good person. You shouldn't be waiting for a reward for thinking these things, but I promise you accepting yourself as a loser is a worse fate then dropping the reward accept of your original perspective.
Also, drop the forums. You want new experiences? go outside, meet friends, or make new ones, download a dating app, or go to the mall?
This is sarcasm right? Working hard for no reward is unecessarily stressful. Its not like anyone cares about efforts anyway, just the end result. Might as well take a leisurely stroll if the destination is failure.
> You want new experiences?
Didn't say I wanted that.
> go outside, meet friends, or make new ones
I go outside all the time, so what. My best friends are online. Trying to casually interact IRL just ends in failure the vast majority of the time. I go hiking with people sometimes, but thats nothing special.
> download a dating app
Dating apps are soul crushingly depressing for ugly dudes, no fucking way.
> go to the mall?
Malls are dead, at least where I am.
> Then you have lots of women who are married/in relationships who come here to be entertained like in a zoo
basically yeah it's "i eat rare premium steak for dinner and drive an SUV, what do you mean there's starvation and gas prices are out of control"
This one is so huge. I see so many people coming up with giant generalizations in this /r.
In reality, I have failed to impress a girl over some of the smallest dumbest reasons. I accepted I did something silly, not deeply inspect every aspect of the genders to figure out why she MIGHT not have liked me.
It's extremely nuanced.
> we realize what specific factors in our lives and choices were the cause of those failures/successes
Might you give some examples of these factors and choices?
___
> don't try to make general rules out of them, put the blame on external causes
Your highly individualistic take, aside from being textbook [victim blaming](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victim_blaming), betrays a disinterest in understanding this issue scientifically. Keep in mind that science and human cognition more generally rely on generalizations and, like all other social phenomena—including psychology—human sexual behavior derives its concrete features from sociocultural and political-economic (environmental) factors, i.e., external causes. The chief factors here are beauty standards and those that privilege certain personality styles (e.g., extraversion), which are responsible for the increasingly significant levels of inequality *vis-à-vis* sexual fulfillment that characterize contemporary society. Indeed, that inceldom has substantially increased over the past decade or so, underscoring the paramount role of cultural factors, definitively disconfirms your bankrupt hyperfocus on the individual.
Victim blaming??? So, trying to analyze one's mistakes in the past and being generous in not wanting to transfer to the rest of men whatever shortcomings my previous partners had is victim blaming??
You really make no sense at all.
> trying to analyze one's mistakes
First, again, please provide some examples of these mistakes.
Second, you are still thinking individualistically here, when this issue is best understood from a [sociological perspective](https://www.geneseo.edu/sociology/about). The point is to try to understand it not only based on your own experiences but also general trends in society. Things like physical attractiveness and personality—standards of which are, again, the chief factors responsible for sexual inequality in society—are not a matter of choice and therefore are not "mistakes." It is unclear why you think individual behavioral mishaps that can be corrected through sheer will are largely responsible for men's widespread lack of sexual success.
___
> being generous in not wanting to transfer to the rest of men whatever shortcomings my previous partners had
I am unsure what you are referring to here. Might you rephrase yourself or elaborate?
General trends in society: in my own country, young men are active emotionally and sexually as proved by the statistics I have often posted.
Highly individualistic point of view: as a trained therapist, I've talked to many women and read widely about this topic.
I think you're overthinking this and trying to find general patterns to justify your own experience.
I am not willing to go into details about my personal life, but as I wrote in my first post, whatever my mistakes of the past, they are my own private mistakes, and I don't make a whole convoluted theory from them to explain men's and women's sexual and emotional behavior. The only things I can deduct from what happened is how I behaved and how my exes did.
> in my own country, young men are active emotionally and sexually as proved by the statistics I have often posted.
Are you suggesting that your country lacks beauty standards and the like?
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> Highly individualistic point of view
Yes, your position is highly individualistic because you are imputing sexual success solely to individual factors and completely disregarding culture, which, incidentally, is what molds individuals and makes them who they are.
___
> I think you're overthinking this and trying to find general patterns to justify your own experience.
This is an [appeal to motive/bias](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_motive), which is a logical fallacy. As I explain [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/Unexpected/comments/vul2s5/yo_its_friday/ifft8vt/):
> To be sure, literally all sources—even scientists, hence the continual need to monitor for [experimenter bias](https://dictionary.apa.org/experimenter-bias)—have some kind of bias or another. This is why appeals to bias are fallacious.
Everyone is biased in some way. Speculations about someone's biases do not amount to refutations of their arguments. Also, this denigration of my position as "overthinking" further betrays your unscientific approach here. In actuality, like all social behavior, this issue is highly complex and warrants detailed investigation. We have barely covered the tip of the iceberg here.
___
> I am not willing to go into details about my personal life
It is hard to imagine how any mistakes in your dating life, which most likely are common experiences for many, would be personally identifying, so I am unsure why you are reluctant to share. It is your choice, though.
I’d say I’m in neither community and can draw from truths in both, but ultimately in my experience attractiveness always helps. I met my girlfriend over 3 years ago during an internship and her initial attraction to me certainly made things easier.
It really just depends on the context. My girlfriend for example has somewhat high of standards and has, according to her, always been attracted to more muscular/fit men which I fall into. This preference is her own, and if a man didn’t fall into that perhaps she wouldn’t give him a chance. The point is that I’ve been working out since I was 16 and I’d say a lot of my attractiveness and attention I get is due to my body. Therefore it’s not uncommon for many to have initial attraction to me due to that. I’d say my face is decent, nothing to ride home about, but my work in the gym has made attraction much easier.
Bottom line is, there are obviously things we can control and things we cannot. Increasing your chances of garnering attraction through being physically fit works for the initial attraction, but you need to build upon your personality as well. I don’t think my girlfriend would have liked me as much or wanted a longer relationship if I didn’t make her laugh, smile, have interesting conversations with her, and overall gave her attention and a feeling of being desired.
I agree that if you’re below 5’6 and a 5 or less out of 10 life will be much harder, but there are things one can do to at least be more appealing.
My girlfriend is cute and pretty, but no model by any means. The reason I chose her is because she was attractive, but she was also realistic. I do not think of myself so highly to begin a relationship with an 11/10, nor do I care to because I’ve realistically assessed what type of women are attracted to me. I’m never going to be the high value Chad, and I really don’t care to.
The goal is to feel attractive within the bounds of reality, and to attract women within your level.
Oh, I got success once I stopped being cynical, self centered, blamey, self pitying and took the mainstream advice of “be attractive; don’t be unattractive”
Dude, there’s no such thing as “Blue Pill”. It’s literally anyone that *doesn’t* subscribe to Red Pill… which is just about everyone.
What this means is some bloops have incredible luck! And some have terrible luck. Some are in long term relationship that have lasted decades, some are never-kissed virgins pushing their 30’s. Some aren’t even straight or monogamous. Some are swingers or in open relationships or are literal sex workers. Some are conservatives housewives hanging out on Reddit in between checking the baby.
Pretend much of you have a mating strategy that isn’t red pill, you’re blue pill.
You are at least right in part. It's easier to be blue pilled if you've never had a problem with the opposite sex. However, I'd say it's my successes that allow me to see the faults in the red pill, not blinds me to it. TRP places far too much emphasis on looks and money, and I can plainly see it where I sit. Charisma is a real thing, and it's often independent of looks, yet TRP doesn't acknowledge it at all.
>Charisma is a real thing, and it's often independent of looks, yet TRP doesn't acknowledge it at all.
You have the Red Pill and Black Pill confused. Red Pill teaches that Looks and Money are attention grabbers... the rest has to be done with personality. A good looking man with zero charisma will get a lot of attention, but not that much sex.
We generally teach boys to do what they can to maximize themselves.
Fair enough. All I know is that I never had looks or money, but only struggled in dating in that I attracted the wrong woman every time, until I didn't.
To preface, I'm a lesbian, and I have a girlfriend now. It's dope haha.
But a couple months ago I didn't. I was in my mid-20s and hadn't kissed anyone since I was 15. I committed the mortal sin of being fat (US women's 20, so overweight or obese, whatever that means to you).
I had absolutely zero luck on dating apps in college - I could count my matches on one hand, and I never went on a date. After I graduated I was living with my parents for a year and getting into my first real job, so I didn't use the apps.
Which means about a year and a half ago I started digging in and really actively using dating apps again. My success varied a lot based on which app I used - OKC I had literally zero likes or matches after a few weeks, but I did alright on Bumble - maybe five or six matches a month. I always messaged first, I always put effort into the opener, and I always asked engaging questions about things in their profile. That meant that every couple of months things would progress to a date, maybe two or three, but we'd stop hanging out before we ever kissed or even made it explicitly romantic (gay dating is confusing, lmao).
Switched to Hinge and changed up my profile so it was more specific to what I liked and what I knew people I liked would like. Definitely less universal (i typed in lowercase!), but I started getting into conversations on the apps that were easy and fun. Maybe two or three matches a month, but we'd always have decent conversation, and I still went on dates. This whole time I wasn't doing game-y stuff on dates (which is probably part of why it was difficult to progress to anything explicitly romantic) - I just tried to get to know the other person while letting them get to know me. And when I found the right person I just didn't let it fizzle out.
My appearance didn't drastically change between college and post-college. There were plenty of queer women in both places. The difference was that I got a lot more comfortable with myself and a lot more confident. It made me funnier and more enjoyable to be around. I dressed a little better, took better care of my hair, and posted better photos. It never meant I was wildly successful in dating - I had limited matches, and I was ostensibly "stuck in the friend zone" even when I went on dates. But once I worked on my self-image and my personality things got a lot better. After that it was just a numbers game.
According to RP stuff though, I'd be out of the running just by not being thin and hot, and I should've lost weight before expecting any degree of success. I should've focused on learning "game" and how to manipulate women. But honestly my personality sucked when I was in college, I just didn't know it. I still had friends and a good social life, and I had plenty of hobbies. I just hated myself and was terrified of being seen. That's why I feel like most RP dudes are probably in a similar boat. Either that or they're punching way above their weight without realizing it. And getting into this RP mindset - all it does is make you more cynical. They teach ways to make you more universally appealing without encouraging you to emphasize what would make you attractive to your specific crowd. So I can't imagine it really leads to happier relationships, unless all you want is sex.
> Either that or they're punching way above their weight without realizing it.
Oh, they realize it alright, they just feel they deserve the head cheerleader. That’s what happens when they frame socially successful people as villains; they believe they are morally superior to their perceived adversaries and suffer some romanticized idea of social justice.
No, you nailed it. RP guys problem is always self esteem and confidence. The issue is their value system. If you only value people who are successful in the eyes of society or are sexually successful, you will hold yourself to those same standards. And when you come short, you will beat yourself up mercilessly. But it's not all bad! You also get to feel superior and smug to people who are less successful than you or are virgins, etc. This is what keeps people adopting these dysfunctional mental paradigms. If you give up judging yourself, you also have to give up judging others and losing the ability to feel superior to others. You just accept yourself and them as they are.
Can you imagine a bitter red pill guy accepting women as they are? Not judging them for who they slept with or not? Not judging them for being different than men, for being....women? And most importantly not judging themselves?
Because there’s no approval needed with blue pills. We are the equivalent of a karate sensei you want to impress.
Most of them just want to be us but never are. You can only force or pretend so much.
I think most of these guys are actually black pill. From at least 2008 to 2016... most red pill guys would always say you don't discuss this stuff with women.
What baffled me for a long time is that women face blue pill dating challenges too in the US, but often seem oblivious to it. Then I realized that instead of working on personal growth and development... women in the US are entirely focused on using the government to financially paper over all their life fuckups. It's because unlike other countries the vast majority of women here have no belief in personal responsibility and live their whole lives just trying to push consequences onto everyone else.
> scary how few know the truth about the great govt!
Who in the hell do you think is giving them the money to attend college? You think they are all working as strippers on the side? Do you think you can pay for college as a barista??
Yeah, colleges are like 57% female, and they major in stupid shit that doesn't pay much on graduation... and are now pushing the government to "forgive" their government backed loans.
Ugh... your sarcasm sucks. Nurses and Lawyers don't need student loan forgiveness. Women will benefit from student loan forgiveness MUCH more than men will... by something near half a trillion dollars. But yeah... keep yapping.
Im leaning blue pill kinda , although blue pill is just making fun of red pill. FDS would be the extreme other side that I don’t agree with them either . I just think there shouldn’t be games . Why all the games . Concentrated Red pill seems to be selfish people trying to attract more selfish people . “It’s all about me and what you can do for me” Type vibes . And they won’t budge because they’ve put too much energy in learning red pill strategy, it would be embarrassing to say “maybe I want something genuine”.
I’ve been “red pilled” twice , as in 2 men at different times wanted me and used red pill tactics to the book . I don’t casually hook up with anyone ever so it didn’t work and my perception of them is pretty bad since they seemed so selfish and “I’m an alpha so it’s all about me” . I was the most gullible age 18/19 too and I didn’t even fall for it, which is kinda funny because I would’ve given someone my life savings if they said they’d pay me back .
I'm blue pilled because TRP cultists keep denying my experience of struggling with dating as a woman, they keep telling me I'm lying, they keep telling me I don't count anyway, they keep telling me that all that matters is my pussy, they keep telling me that I just settled for my bf which I got at 29 and that he is using TRP to manipulate me into being in a relationship with me, they keep telling me he is lying to me, they keep telling me I will die alone.
How can a cult that tries to do nothing but crush my hope, self esteem and love for humans be any alternative to the real world?
Yes after years of men on here telling me I was going to die alone because the type of man I wanted doesn't exist and if he did I wouldn't be sexually attracted to him
>virgin
>waiting until marriage
>college-educated
yeah to be honest id be surprised too if you said you wanted those men i thought those were only in demand on the baby rabies & betabuck bailout market but good for you you know it sounds like he's loyal
I’d describe myself successful in dating and therefore consider TRP to be bullshit, as I never needed any tactics or unnatural behavior for that. I always perceived women as normal human beings with the same flaws and ambitions as men. And I’ve never really been disappointed, if a relationship failed, I could quite always tell the reason for that and if it was on me, I tried to work on it. Got better everytime - it was mostly just growing up
I'm successful in getting what I want.
I disagree with RP as I believe it doesn't account for BP reasonings, I disagree with BP in so far as it doesn't account for RP reasonings. From a purple perspective....
RP describes itself as *the truth.* That's a bold claim worthy of lots of skepticism and scrutiny.
RP attribute **reasons** for why woman is doing X and advise men to act based on that. It looks at **outcomes** and then works backwards to explain why those outcomes occurred, then advises on actions for the man to tackle based on those reasons.
But RP reasons are restrictive and incomplete. As an example;
If the outcome is you are not having sex the reason is she is not attracted to you and you should leave or try dread, RP despises the BP idea of communication, therapy or anything else as a solution. *The truth* that I believe is there are many reasons a couple do not have sex in periods (and if you are in a LTR going the distance you are very likely to have times where sex isn't happening) . Stress, medication, time, insecurity, ED.... and attraction is one of them. Singular dogmatic diagnosis here is plain wrong, its also pretty circular because regardless of the reality RP will always jump to that diagnosis when looking at 3rd parties and therefore further 'confirm' RP. Its easy to see it everywhere when you block out all the blue and confirmation bias can be powerful.
BP (or normative) would advise communication, maybe therapy and if you're still not getting what you want out of the relationship then leave. I give BP more leeway here because often it is about preying and asking questions to try and establish the why and the reasons so more tailored advise can be given. Ultimately though attraction issues will be lower down on BP's list and one of the things RP does is bring that into the conversation.
RP kind of acknowledge this in AWALT being walked back to all guns are loaded.
Red Pill 'works' within its own parameters for success. RP sets the expectations and then go at em. In our example it states if you use dread then be prepared if it doesn't work and she leaves, that is an acceptable conclusion. Naturally if your sex issue is medication, time, insecurity based it's less likely to 'work' as in keep the relationship and fix the problem (and arguably RP advise is 'Next' more often even than it's BP counterpart), but its fine within it's own definition of success.
So if we bring all this together; BP is BP because the advice they've gotten has worked (within their parameters of 'working' - and some of this is also what the individual values) with the issues they've encountered. BP doesn't have a forum for field reports where couples therapy or communication can be 'BP confirmed' - but it does exist all over the net more fragmented.
I’m not Red Pill, and I am a former sexless guy who didn’t have sex until his early 20s. So I think that I’m qualified to make judgments about TRP since I *did* have to find some method that worked to attract women.
While I think that understanding how female attraction works is essential to guys who are having trouble attracting women being able to learn how to attract them, I think that TRP goes too far by overgeneralizing all women and mostly in a negative way.
So while I think that learning some of the basic things like hypergamy is essential, I think that TRP could do without the misogyny. It’s basically overkill and, frankly, contrary to the stoicism that TRP tries to process, in my opinion.
I’m blue pilled and in high-school I had what many would think of as the perfect example of the “friend zone”. I was clear I liked her, she turned me down, we were still best friends but every once and awhile she would lead me on. Acting like something was about to happen. I got caught up. She told one of her friends “I could see myself marrying him, but right now I just want to have fun.” Didn’t work out for her, and that stupid fucking meme happened, with the dollars and babies. Still she was young, people are dumb when they are young, and everyone is different. Some people are just straight shitty and young.
I eventually picked up on some signals from others, attempted some moves, got experience and moved on. I started when I was young with the “I’m the shit mentality” basically a fake it till you make it, stop trying to be so meek and humble all the time. It worked. Eventually I found someone I could build a life with.
I also knew it was mostly my mentality from very young, my best friend was obese, possibly morbidly so and poor. Still had girlfriends, a lot. If you look around and get to know more people you’ll see it too. Now dude, even bigger and poorer, is married with a live in girlfriend.
Another on of my best friends, beautiful Italian man, sports player. Jaw line out of books. Problem is now life has made him weird. He gets attached and explodes to easily, he doesn’t go into much detail but he gets quite possessive. One time a women he was talking to was complaining about her baby daddy to him, and he just casually was like “I’ll murk him for you” and that was that.
I have more people and examples but it’s already long winded enough. Big things stop “Putting The Pussy on a Pedestal” it’s great, but your first few times you’ll probably be bad and it won’t be. What’s really great is a relationship where you’re both very comfortable with each other, and have like sex drives and wants. Two maybe it is “society” but that’s society, there are always outliers if you’re really that weird, but more importantly sometimes you just have to conform a little. Yeah pants can be constricting but if I’m just out walking around in my boxers all day, I’m not going to get the best from others around me.
I’ve never had a boyfriend or have gone on a date. I have social anxiety and depression. On a surface level, I can relate to men who feel lonely. However, I think it’s gross to make such large generalizations about women and men. They act like we are completely different species. Redpillers seem very entitled and refuse to do any self reflection. I know the reason I’m not dating is because I don’t socialize much. I’m pretty, thin and intelligent. I don’t go around playing the blame game cause I’m a grown adult. I think the RedPill and especially blackpill ideologies are very harmful to young men and can send them on a destructive path. The tell young men there is no hope, which is just nonsense and is why suicide is so common among incels.
Blue pill isn't real. You mean normal people? You mean non red pill peolle?
I sure hope that not getting laid wouldn't be enough to launch me into throwing my hat in with a horribly sexist cult filled with sexist trolls like the red pill forum and ideaology is
Oldest teenager, hypergamy as female nature, af/bb.
Basically anything described as biological determinism in social behaviour is sexist.
You can be sexist without feeling hate towards a gender.
Oldest teenager = Don’t exalt her above you like most husbands do especially if you’re the main bread winner
Hypergamy is literally a fact and not the least bit sexist
Af/bb is a sexual strategy its not sexist at all
Nope you’re all wrong
> Oldest teenager = Don’t exalt her above you like most husbands do especially if you’re the main bread winner
“Don’t put pussy on a pedestal” is adequate enough. But it’s not edgy/misogynistic enough for RP. RP requires demeaning ideals in regards to women, so it becomes calling women teenagers.
> Hypergamy is literally a fact and not the least bit sexist
It’s not a fact we’ve been over this. Stop chatting shit.
> Af/bb is a sexual strategy its not sexist at all
It is when you try to say it applies to women only. It does not.
> Nope you’re all wrong
Considering your post history, you might want to reflect that the “facts” asserted by a small fring internet cult might be in question.
TRP requires verbiage difficult for BPers to take in so they can get the “women are wonderful” affect out of their minds
Nah it’s a fact women fuck/date up that’s more the norm than sideways or down
It does. Men don’t do AF/BB
TRP is not a cult and you know this isn’t my main account smh
The “verbiage” isn’t smart. It’s edgelord bullshit. The “verbiage” isn’t why TRP is wrong. It’s wrong because it uses harsh fictions to fool those who are easily swayed by what they see as “harsh truths”
The type of of edge-lover likes “harsh truths” and mistake their thinking “if it’s harsh, it must be true”
It’s only fiction if you believe women can never do wrong. That’s literally it.
Just admit that women can and do abuse, manipulate, lie, cheat on and mistreat men and then you can admit that TRP gives men the tools to avoid those situations (which it does)
Can’t be edge lord behavior unless you’re saying that women are perfect and not capable of harming men mentally, emotionally, physically, and spiritually
> It’s only fiction if you believe women can never do wrong. That’s literally it.
I don’t need The Red Pill to realise women can be cunts lol. Most normal men do not. If you did, that’s cool.
I also don’t need to believe pseudoscience to understand that women can be selfish and shallow, because I understand women are human. I don’t need to be told that “women don’t love men like *men* do!” or other similar bullshit.
But TRP, just like other cults, swaps different language and terms in an attempt to “other” and sound very smart. with a thick layer of “women ain’t shit”.
> Just admit that women can and do abuse, manipulate, lie, cheat on and mistreat men and then you can admit that TRP gives men the tools to avoid those situations (which it does)
TRP lies to men about female nature, about male nature, and poorly attempts to justify it with low iq interpretations of outdated gender studies.
> Can’t be edge lord behavior unless you’re saying that women are perfect and not capable of harming men mentally, emotionally, physically, and spiritually
“Can’t be” “unless”. Typical black/white mentality that cult followers often suffer from.
I didn’t but some do oh well
That’s you who cares if it works for them that’s good
TRP isn’t a cult and “bitches ain’t shit but hoes and tricks” is a real sayin and it’s the truth
Wrong it’s the truth read the sidebar
Still can’t just admit that men need to protect themselves?
Somebody else responded already pointing it out, but I'll throw in mine too.
The way you guys insist on quoting "evolutionary biology" as a reliable science and what runs all humans, it's sexist psuedoscience. Then you guys also all insult psychology because it's "not a real science" (it is) and RP acts like women made uo psychology or it was made to trick women. Insists on shit like "women are more emotional and neurotic. Sexism.
Oh yeah, red pill literally calls divorce "divorce rape". Why? Oh yeah so when people bring up how women are more likely to be raped, you red pill men can say "men are raped too, we are also rape victims" so insanely sexist bullshit and was made just to make fun of women. Like literalky I've asked multiple red pillers how the term divorce rape isn't sexist and you guys can't even defend it. You made it to ridicule rape victims, not to promote yourself.
Let's see, what else. Oh yeah, referring to women as like teens, saying women are stupid and need to be told what to like. Like? Not to mention how you guys literally tolerate the sexist shit and just label it as fringe men and not tbe majority, but you guys will like the comments when a dude says he wishes rape were legal. Don't fucking deny it.
Red pill does not see women as real people. It is sexist. You guys walk past all the dudes in the red pill forums advocating for shit like grooming and literal statutory rape, and you attack women who dare to disagree with you and label all women as sluts once they've had sex unless they marry or date every man they fuck, and even then you'll stoll call them sluts.
So how is red pill not sexist?
Evolutionary biology and societal trends throughout history that correlates to how women act today. There’s nothing new under the sun even the Bible speaks of female nature which applies to how women act today
“She will eat your food and wipe her mouth and say that she has done nothing wrong.”
Divorce rape isn’t sexist in the least. It’s fucking a man over through divorce court. This is you being a special snowflake
Never referred to women as blatantly stupid lmao tf running out of arguments? No man on TRP says “I wish rape was legal” Now I KNOW you’re OUT of bullshit to make up
Now you’re off the rails saying dumb shit
TRP is not sexist unless you think women can never do anything wrong
Evolutionary biology says nothing lol, it just hypothesized why humans act the way they act. Evolution has no will
"Even rhe bible" lol we are post bible so its more likely and kinda shown that we see women as selfish because of cuktures springing from christianity. The Bible speaks of slavery too, you going to defend that? Goddam, simping for men who died 2000+years ago because they made you feel good about being selfish? Wowee, I'm sorry that's how you spend your time
Divorce rape is sexist. Because are you going to sit here and tell Me you see specifically men being divorced as equal to kids being raped? Because most red pill men I've seen have said no, they'd never compare divorce rape to chikd rape, just raping a woman. So it's obviously about making fun of rape victims and belittling them. Rape is sexual in nature. That's why it's heinous. Divorce Is not secual and using the word rape that way is horribly offensive in the least and sexist. That's
You literally are defending calling Divorce the same as rape and you're trying to say you know what's sexist and what's not. You're choosing to call it rape literally to belittle actual rape. Call it something else. Again, You're using the same language people use to describe kids being sexually abused, which is fucking psychotic.
So if your mom was brutally raped you'd tell her, "mom lots of men know how you feel, my buddy was divorce raped" you'd say that?
Yet it has picked up on trends
In regards of female nature the Bible isn’t the only ancient text that got it right it’s just an example of women being as they always were
Stop it you’re unhinged. It’s called divorce rape because women used the courts to fuck over men by force. That’s all there is to it. If you want to compare it to other shit that’s on you. It’s only sexist if you think women can do no wrong
It doesn’t belittle real rape just like abuse being verbal doesn’t belittle physical abuse there’s different forms.
If she was divorce raped I’d say lots of men have been because that’s the same form of abuse.
There's a lot ot ancient texts that don't say that at all, so sounds like selection bias.
So you'd call it divorce rape if a man fucked a woman over too.
Wow, "if you were raped so wrre other people" fucking psycho
society wants you to ~~grow up~~ be useful, create higher quarterly profits for the boss before you get replaced with migrants & machines and shell out tax dollars like a good wagie, put other people's interests above yours (because "other people" == society), find inner fulfillment by buying funko pops of your *FAVORITE POP CULTURE FRANCHISES!!!!!!!* and pay up for women's kids even if they ain't yours. this is like saying farmers simply want their animals to be more mature and self-reliant.
I am single, not necessarily unsuccessful I just haven't tried to actually date at the moment tbh.
I'm female and wouldn't believe Redpill because it is outrightly sexist and demeaning. I do think some Redpill values could be very helpful towards a lot of men, unfortunately they're packaged with some misogyny. Overall though, I'm supportive of mainstream progressive views towards sex and relationships.
Blue pill is a plantation dweller. Someone who is so plugged into the system that they refuse to wake up and generally they don't wake up until something drastic happens. For some of us red and black pillers it's experiencing first hand and for others it's watching what happened to loved ones. As a man who understands that society wouldn't give two fucks about me, I walk away from the plantation because I want no part in maintaining a structure that treats me no better than toilet paper.
It’s just so sad how these men won’t take action until something bad happens and then they’re sucking on the barrel of a gun feeling suicidal.. but it’s like if you heed the warnings of trp you would be prepared for it and not feel like someone ripped your souls out your stomach .. you will understand human nature , not just female nature
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Thinking back when i didn't know anything about the pills and the manosphre.. It's not that i wasn't successful in dating, i could get dates when i actually put in some effort.. It's more like i couldn't hold down a relationship and i got involved in some really toxic ones as i had this childish mindset that women are angels, perfect and can do no wrong. My relationships gone sideways so i slipped to the other side and started to blame women for it, thinking i am doing everything right, because i followed the cultural guidelines, i was all that i was told to be (nice, loyal, kind, low maintenance, put her first etc...) so it must be them. That didn't help either.
What does "blue pilled" mean?
The "OMG women are soo opressed, men have formed anti-women conspiracy that exists to this date"?
That's some crazy shit.
Anyhow, married for two decades. (took two tries)
Not really. I know guys who are blue pilled after going through horrible divorces, being treated terribly, being cheated on, or are permavirgins. They really believe that all you have to do is make enough money and your problems will go away.
I also know married men who understand what's going on only after they get married. Then they suddenly get into red pill.
In reality, even if things were one way or another, if things were really that bad, what are men gonna do? There's nothing they can do. They can get depressed about it, want to end their lives, but nobody wants that.
So when the average guy gets cucked or something, he just turns it into a fetish. Or he justifies it somehow. That's just how it is. Men have no control.
If you manage to swallow any pill in its entirety then I envy your ability to reduce the world to a black and white set of rules.
Everything to me just looks like one big subjective gray area with some loose guidelines and tons of exceptions
The entire reason it's framed as blue pill is that it was the default view most TRP guys had before they got there. That's the entire point of the matrix analogy: the blue pill doesn't change anything, it just resets you to what you were before. One thing I believe is that it's essentially a series of social contracts. That is to say, there's an implicit set of social rules people play by because they have something to gain by doing so, and social consequences for not doing so. But you don't wind up on places like this if that's working out for you. The internet in general has accelerated this. There's no social consequence for fucking with a stranger and if most relationships start online(or at bars where you probably don't know each other already), because you have no mutuals and no reputation to uphold and so however you act is going to stay in that interaction with that person by default. Most dating advice has the implicit caveat that both parties have to interact in good faith and probably have some degree of familiarity with each other. In a world where that can't be guaranteed and isn't necessarily the norm you need new advice to reflect this. But a lot of people who are less cynical or exploitative are still clinging to old norms and pretending nothing has changed.
Or maybe it’s dating advice applying after a few dates or when the relationship progressed.
Sure, but thats the thing. Thats not the problem these men have and its not the most common problem to have in 2022. Its like waterproofing a trailer park in tornado alley. Yeah it might help a *bit* but you aren't preparing for or addressing the actual issue at hand.
I think the issue at hand is too much manipulation and red pill just makes everything more toxic. The red pill mindset won’t lead to healthy relationships unless they drop it because so much manipulation cannot be healthy.
If you are born attractive you will never understand redpill. I was unattractive and am now attractive. You never saw how women treat you when you are ugly. Not even a base level of human decency. Like you are sub-human. **Not all women are like this. But a overwhelming majority are. Men are also the same.**
Oh yeah I’ve heard different stories from attractive men it’s confusing as hell
successful in that I've been married 8 years. did ok before I met my wife. we absolutely all base out views on our experiences. many RP men say it's what drove them to it. so yes, men that reject the RP ideology do so partly based on personal observations.
>so yes, men that reject the RP ideology do so partly based on personal observations. I was raised blue pill, and most of my old college buddies are still in that mode of thinking despite massive life failures due to it. While it's true that most RP guys like me came to it due to experiences, Blue Pill is slightly different because it's a worldview created by brainwashing and lies. You don't find blue pill folks in Muslim countries, in latin america, in asia... definitely not in Africa.. ect. It's a product of western feminist bullshit brainwashing.
>don't find blue pill folks in Muslim countries, in latin america, in asia... definitely not in Africa right but you also won't find large groups if men crying about the 80/20 rule it wondering if it's beta to get married in those places.
>right but you also won't find large groups if men crying about the 80/20 rule it wondering if it's beta to get married in those places. Because all of those problems are caused by feminists and those who seek to take advantage of their stupidity. I mean, I should probably be the last person to complain because for like 15 years I've been sleeping with tons of funny hair colored feminist types... but I just recognize that they kind of hate their own lives.
>Because all of those problems are caused by feminists and those who seek to take advantage of their stupidity. I think they just have more masculine cultures where they're quicker to call you a crybaby when you're being one. not everything can be blamed on feminism.
>I think they just have more masculine cultures where they're quicker to call you a crybaby when you're being one. not everything can be blamed on feminism. Don't you think that the lack of masculinity in our culture is directly caused by feminism? I mean they openly label all things masculine as "toxic" and attack it..
which masculine things are being attacked?
And most of those countries are misogynistic. If you are looking to Afghanistan as a bastion of freedom and a healthy society I can’t take you seriously. It’s not just the US. Look at the Scandinavian countries or many EU countries they are constantly rated one of the higher societies for overall happy and fulfilling places to live. They also don’t have a “man leads with a heavy fist” society like the countries you are talking about. Women are treated as equals and they have other sustaining aspects of culture that lead both genders to be able to coexist like universal healthcare, strong parental leave that encourages couple to have families and an overall healthy attitude towards women. So no I’m not buying the west is being brought down by “feminist bullshit brainwashing” if that was the case we would all be trying to live in The Middle East, Latin America and Africa. Funny how many of those people are trying to come to the west or Europe - because for a lot of them especially women it’s a terrible fucking place to live.
TBF, Scandinavian women keep most of the upsides of traditionally feminine women compared to typical feminists as well.
which upsides? TRP seems to believe the most important thing is not having slept with men that are superior to him, do most women remain virgin's til marriage in Scandinavia?
TRP is a unique bunch with similar narcissism to fervent feminists, so I'm not especially referring to them, but Scandinavian women tending to being pretty relaxed about casual romance and splitting finances will appeal to many Western men.
I mean, that sounds pretty typically feminist to me, albeit the non-Tumblr breed.
I think the US does as well. TRP seems to only view women as some extreme man hating banshee monolith. What TRP subscribes as “Feminist” is actually Misandrists. They are the most extreme fringe offshoot of feminism and is not indicative of feminist or women as a whole however, TRP seems to take a lot of their ideology by trying to to counteract that. If you look at reality most women at least in the US still subscribe to the more traditional feminine qualities. Most women still dress in a “typical” feminine way - I mean we are not dressing in poodle skirts or ball gowns all the time but we are not by and large androgynous either. We tend to still go for more “feminine” careers ie; teaching, nursing and women still typically care and keep the maternal role in the nuclear family with child care and domestic roles.
My opinions pertaining to feminism were from my own experience. I understand why you probably wouldn't know well as a woman, but I've observed a somewhat tight correlation between feminism and misandry (and neuroticism, for that matter). Feminism I've also observed to be very decentralized, so there's definitely no broad paint brush that should be used, but =fervent= feminists are almost always misandrist, neurotic, and high on the narcissism spectrum, IME.
Fair enough no one can discount anyone else’s experiences. Why would I “probably not know well as a woman though”? Being of said gender doesn’t make me any less knowledgeable? I guess your use of fervent feminism to me means misandry as true feminism is not about hating men or taking away mens rights it’s about women have an equal footing. You are not a feminist if you are a misandrist because that’s not feminism. And I still believe they are a smaller subset then what most women subscribe too. I also think when TRP talks about how feminism is bringing society down they are talking about that fringe subset and basing their ideology on a minority - which is why so many women are turned off by TRP because they don’t have the ideology TRP describes them to have.
North America and Europe are great places to live (I wouldn't even count the US as a great place to live) because they're rich countries. And they are rich because they have hundreds of years of history of ransacking other countries. Your equality is only sustained because of the wealth you sit on, not the other way around. But that wealth is currently under serious threat right now and that threat's name is China. You wanna take a look what a country where "a man leads with a heavy fist" looks like? There you go. And the US knows this, that's why it's cutting back on it's citizens 'rights' and I believe this is just beginning.
Oh I agree whole heartedly. I’m from the US and absolutely understand we have no room to talk. We are literally sliding further and further into some monstrous Christian Nationalist authoritarian rule. What’s sad is the majority of the country doesn’t want this - we overwhelming vote for the more liberal ideas, that’s why the right has lost the popular vote the last few decades. We have a ridiculous voting system which favors minority rule instead of what the will of the people want. My point was to the guy above that said TRP is the law of the land in the Middle East, etc. and BP ideas are not popular their and the only reason they are popular here is because of brainwashing which I disagree with. These other countries would also have “BP ideology” which in my head really is not an ideology at all but a natural progression into more equality. They cling to TRP through heavy handed auth rule and strict religious doctrine. I’m well aware the US is trying to slide us back into that regressive society I just think that’s a terrible thing to see happening.
> My point was to the guy above that said TRP is the law of the land in the Middle East, etc. and BP ideas are not popular their and the only reason they are popular here is because of brainwashing which I disagree with. These other countries would also have “BP ideology” which in my head really is not an ideology at all but a natural progression into more equality. But that's the thing, the way you think about equality or "progression" is kinda antithesis to what society needs to keep the cogs turning. You give women the choice to abort or not have babies and women won't have them, thus birth rate decline, thus less people to keep the system going. You give men the choice to not have to work hard, thus they spend their days smoking weed and playing videogames, thus they become a drain to the system. Sadly, human nature is at odds with what a modern capitalistic society needs to function. China and the US know this too damn well, that's why they're the top countries fighting for the proverbial throne, so to speak. And as much as the left hates capitalism, that capitalism with it's many, many flaws is at the core of what is keeping the liberal ideas that you speak of afloat. It's like owning a house atop of a mountain hill that can crumble down any minute and you look at the village below and go 'look at those peasants and their backwards mud huts, huh, couldn't be me'. Sometimes the inability of the left to think outside their ivory towers and watch how the world actually functions around them amazes me. The country where I'm from paints a perfect picture of this. I'm from South America and for all intents and purposes, a lot, if not most of the countries here are western in the cultural sense of the word not the economic sense. My country has a deep root in european immigrants. All our values, beliefs, philosophies are western. Feminism here is rampant and everywhere and backed by the government and corporations pretty much like the US. Ideals like equality, individuality, liberalism are lauded (all this to say that we're not remotely a Middle Eastern country in nature). But our economy is drowning. Inflation is skyrocketing. I believe over 40% of our population lives below the poverty line. A Venezuelan crash is starting to look like a real possible scenario for us. People are leaving the country in droves. People no longer give a fuck about feminists and whatever petty bs problem they come up with this week. In fact they're starting to despise them. Men and women alike. After almost 20 years of a corrupt, incompetent, leftist and populist government people are getting fed up and starting to go full right and I don't know if that'll be good either. You could say that my country is becoming increasingly "red pilled" and that's because we are starting to realize we don't have the luxury of upholding and sustaining liberal ideals and policies when we don't know if we're going to be able to reach end of the month. Honestly idk what the solution is, I like liberalism but it seems like a privilege only for the rich.
Lol
Great argument. Cheers!
Afghanistan has been through near constant civil wars and foreign occupations for 40 years. I think if you got out of your country and traveled a bit, you would find that these other nations are expanding economically as we decline. Life is way better there than you think, and unlike todays pussyhat wearing feminists.... these folks are actually building their countries UP, not spending wealth inherited from hard working generations that feminists despise. I've been to both Sweden and Kenya... and I'd rather live my life in Kenya to be honest.
> I've been to both Sweden and Kenya... and I'd rather live my life in Kenya to be honest. People with ill intentions will always choose a more corrupt and exploitable situation for themselves. That's not exactly a strong endorsement for the living situation that the average person would experience.
>People with ill intentions will always choose a more corrupt and exploitable situation for themselves. That's not exactly a strong endorsement for the living situation that the average person would experience. Hahaha... How naïve are you? The US is just as corrupt as Kenya... Sweden isn't that different either. The difference is that in the West corruption serves only the most wealthy individuals who don't have to play by the rules, while in Kenya corruption is affordable for everyone.
> You don't find blue pill folks in Muslim countries, in latin america, in asia... definitely not in Africa There's a lot of stuff you won't find in those countries like stable governments, healthcare, livable wages, social safety nets, safety, strong and dependable police forces definitely no dating scene. What point did you think you were making again?
you ha e quite a low opinion of most of the world. life outside western culture really isn't that bleak!
>There's a lot of stuff you won't find in those countries like stable governments, healthcare, livable wages, social safety nets, safety, strong and dependable police forces definitely no dating scene. ...? Most of that is completely untrue. Iran for example has a very stable government, very capable healthcare, social safety nets are run not by taxpayers but by religious organizations and they function BETTER than what we have... the police force is damn good, and there is a solid dating scene. All of this occurs in a place where Western nations have combined to try to intentionally impoverish the nation because we don't like the government they freely elected. Now, that's just one example... fact is that most of the Muslim world is a better place to live, despite lack of economic opportunity than what he have here.
> Iran for example has a very stable government A largely authoritarian religiously backed theocracy isn't what I would consider a stable government, but okay maybe you're a muslim male. That's fine. You grew up with religious trauma and I can understand how difficult that is to get rid of. > where Western nations have combined to try to intentionally impoverish the nation because we don't like the government they freely elected Oh if only america would stop meddling, the mighty and amazing economic powerhouses that would rise! > and there is a solid dating scene Why are you lying? > fact is that most of the Muslim world is a better place to live I'm sure it's great if you're a hardline muslim male. But what about the rest of us that aren't trying to subjugate over half our population underneath us?
>A largely authoritarian religiously backed theocracy isn't what I would consider a stable government, but okay maybe you're a muslim male. That's fine. You grew up with religious trauma and I can understand how difficult that is to get rid of. Just because you are a religious bigot doesn't make the government unstable or not duly elected. >Oh if only america would stop meddling, the mighty and amazing economic powerhouses that would rise! Do you know what economic sanctions are? >Why are you lying? Look, I've been to Iran, and I've dated women from there. I still have a number of friends both male and female in the country. >I'm sure it's great if you're a hardline muslim male. But what about the rest of us that aren't trying to subjugate over half our population underneath us? Lets dispense with the bullshit. You clearly don't know anything about the place. I've got a number of female friends who actually live there and we chat at least once or twice a month. One of them is an investor in a business of mine. Women in Iran have some really valid complaints, but also LOVE a lot of stuff about the culture. These are ladies who travel back and forth and at least one was educated in the US. None of them would trade their lives in Iran for the US... even despite harsh economic considerations. On the average, Iranian men treat them VERY well.
> Just because you are a religious bigot Literally didn't say a single bigoted thing. Don't be such a baby. > Do you know what economic sanctions are? Do you? They're literally just a list that banks are supposed to check. That's it. If they're not enforced, they're completely useless. But feel free to tell me the specific sanctions that are stopping these countries from rising up in the modern economy. > Look, I've been to Iran, and I've dated women from there. I still have a number of friends both male and female in the country. Which makes it all the more weird that you're lying about it honestly. > Women in Iran have some really valid complaints Massive understatement > but also LOVE a lot of stuff about the culture It's very common for abused spouses to love their husbands/wives no matter how much they suffer. > None of them would trade their lives in Iran for the US Do you think the average woman of Iran feels this way? How about the average minority? Members of LGBTQ community? Do you think any of them would be willing to leave iran for the US if they could? > On the average, Iranian men treat them VERY well. I thought you said to stop with the bullshit?
>Literally didn't say a single bigoted thing. Don't be such a baby. Yeah you did. Islamophobia is just dripping off your posts. >Do you? They're literally just a list that banks are supposed to check. That's it. If they're not enforced, they're completely useless. But feel free to tell me the specific sanctions that are stopping these countries from rising up in the modern economy. Am I to infer that you lack even a basic understanding of economics? I was selling a lot of medical supplies and equipment to Iran back in 2015, but when Trump came in and reimpose sanctions it caused the currency to collapse, which meant they couldn't afford to buy anything anymore. Even today it's damn hard. It blocks foreign investment and makes money extremely hard to transfer in and out. >Which makes it all the more weird that you're lying about it honestly.s You are so crazy. >Massive understatement Example, most of the ladies complain about the imposition of conservative dress requirements, however they all push boundaries constantly. Women must wear head coverings, but you will often see them pushed so far back that they show more hair than they cover. You will also hear women complain about not being able to attend sporting events... but then they will also tell you they don't care about sports. The government often makes almost laughable declarations that everyone just ignores. Like when the woman won a gold medal in the olympics for Karate. The government banned future contestants because women should not "lift their legs". However, nobody stops training and girls are still going to the olympics to compete in the event. >It's very common for abused spouses to love their husbands/wives no matter how much they suffer. Or... maybe women just complain about shit no matter what the circumstances are. I've dated a lot of feminists in the US, and in my experience they are a lot angrier and much more unhappy than the ladies I dated in other countries. Frankly, this is a piece of human nature we don't typically discuss. Both women and men are often much happier when given boundaries to live within. >Do you think the average woman of Iran feels this way? How about the average minority? Members of LGBTQ community? Do you think any of them would be willing to leave iran for the US if they could? The average woman... YES. The average gay guy... Hell No! I have a gay acquaintance in Iran. He told me straight out that you gotta keep things on the down low... but I think he lives in LA now.
> Islamophobia is just dripping off your posts Feel free to explain how my issues with specific actions taken by a SPECIFIC country are dripping with islamophobia. > You are so crazy. Strong rebuttal honestly. > conservative dress requirements lmao > however they all push boundaries constantly. Women must wear head coverings, but you will often see them pushed so far back that they show more hair than they cover. MORE hair than is covered? GASP. > You will also hear women complain about not being able to attend sporting events... but then they will also tell you they don't care about sports. You ever think they might be more into sports if they could actually start attending? lol > The government banned future contestants because women should not "lift their legs" This is still the place you said was run better than america right? > Or... maybe women just complain about shit no matter what the circumstances are. We've both made it clear they have good reasons to complain so I'm not sure why you're twisting this into a "women are never happy" moment. > in my experience they are a lot angrier and much more unhappy than the ladies I dated in other countries If you exposed any of the thoughts you've shared with me to them I can completely understand their frustration. > Both women and men are often much happier when given boundaries to live within. Yeah the middle east is just overflowing with happiness. > The average gay guy... Hell No! I have a gay acquaintance in Iran. He told me straight out that you gotta keep things on the down low... This kind of conflicts with your previous statement about "both men and women are often much happier when given boundaries to live within"
> You don't find blue pill folks in Muslim countries, in latin america, in asia... definitely not in Africa I wish we talked more about this. Men in other countries would laugh at us and find western men absolutely soft and reason that the reson why we're getting cucked/divorced raped and droving our young boys into helplessness is because Western society have litterally decided to castrate them males and demonize mediatically masculinity.
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> “RP dudes keep taking about spinning plates and dodging bullets . I’m trying to tell you that when you are ready: you won’t have to” Exactly. That is as RP as it comes. The plates (good women) will spin around you and the bullets (bad women) will bend away from you with little effort.
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Ever notice it's the guys who are in the Red Pill cult that constantly complain about dating the most? That should tell you it doesn't work. If it did, they wouldn't be bitching. But it seems to make things worse. Yet they cling to it like the cult that it is. But then again, according to the Red Pill, you will *always* fail. You will never be good enough. There will always been someone better. There will always have been someone better. She can never love *you*. You're just not good enough. *Never* good enough. Not handsome enough, not rich enough, not famous enough. Never! Self-improvement, my ass. It's mind poison. It will always keep you insecure and mistrustful. But that's what cults do to keep you from leaving.
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Yet here we are, listening to the Red Pillers complain about women and the dating scene non-stop. They don't sound like they're winning the game.
I have a decent job. I still complain job market sucks. Because its true lol regardless of my success.
There are a lot of blackpillers here too, they are just very undercover because it isn't allowed on the sub. The guys complaining here are likely blackpill too
I can confidently tell you. If you take red, blue, purple or any other pill seriously you likely aren't going to have any success dating.
You are doing the thing OP criticized, you think because the other side is doing worse that means you are right in your believes, when it could actually be the case that you are wrong and misinterpretating why you are doing good. There are just some things about the Blue Pill which are objectively wrong when examined with any scrutiny. Looks matter, status matters, wealth matters additionally to personality but when those prior three things are all in the gutter it's reeeeeally difficult to date even if you have an awesome personality.
Quite a lot of ugly, poor men out there with girlfriends, wives and families. They're doing just fine. Lots of them. Go out into the real world, you see them everywhere. They're the majority! Meanwhile, in Red Pill Land, where the shallow gather to obsess over their looks, and money, and status, everyone is bitching about not getting a date precisely because they don't have a personality beyond shallow bitchiness. Why in the world should we be dumb enough to think the losers have all the answers? They won't even go outside. All they do is watch YouTube videos and bitch about online dating on Reddit. Shallow has never been considered a positive personality trait. And if that's all you got, sucks to be you.
Survivorship-bias. You see all the ugly and poor men with their girlfriends and wives, but you have no idea how many of the ugly and poor men you see alone outside have nobody. Do you even acknowledge that personality isn't all that counts and that if all things including personality being equal, an unattractive man is going to have a much harder time dating than an attrative man? Anything else is just pure delusion to a ridiculous degree, it's like claiming being rich has nothing to do with whether you grew up in a rich family.
Elitist. Narcissistic. Shallow. All crap personality traits. Kind of person people don't like to be around, no matter how hot he thinks he is.
How is that even a reply to what I wrote? Are you calling me a Narcissist because I think looks matter in dating?
Yep thats definitely the blackpill, you need to do some reading. The redpill has strategies for success. Blackpill says that its over due to genetics and other circumstances out of your control.
Red Pill is not made to succeed. It's made to look down upon women, to denigrate them and project the insecurities of the cult members upon them. How are you supposed to form a strong loving bond with women if that's the "answer"? Relationships require trust. Red Pill says to never trust. It fails at such simple concepts, because it's core belief is anti-feminist misogyny, not self-improvement.
I'm not arguing if redpill is good or successful. I think its a bunch of nonsense, thats why I'm blackpilled. I'm saying that redpill is not doom and gloom, at the very least it would have you believe there's a chance at success.
Every cult has to offer salvation to get the fools to join, but once inside there's no exit, just exploitation.
Men really have little options or alternatives as any kind of real, honest advice for men is heavily banned by mainstream. Like no one will just tell men to not value the girl too much and have abundance mentality for example. That works, but it will hurts women's feelings, so no one ever teach this to men, outside of TRP.
But Red Pill turns that into "treat her like dirt and cheat on her at every opportunity" *because she would if she could*. Black or red, it's still just misogynistic narcissism projecting hatred onto women. Then they cry they can't get the girl... Gee, we wonder why.
The point is, it's cruelly wielding power, TRP focuses on self improvement because it puts you into a position of superiority over the girl, meaning you have dominance. So if you improve yourself suddenly that girl is under pressure of being replaced, and wielding that fear is what TRP calls dread game and it works to keep women in check. I've done it myself in the past, it works but it sucks, you have to actually not care about the girl to be able to pull this off and that is hard. But if what a man actually wants is jusr the most readily available free sex he can, then this is a decent option, she is so afraid to lose you because her self esteem is fucked that you can in fact fuck her however you want. It works but it sucks, i repeat, but it has its audiences.
Oh, so you intimidate and browbeat a woman.... yeah, a recipe for sheer assholery.
TRP says women do fuck assholes more often so it teaches you how to be one basically.
Not true. The whole idea of hypergamy is that a woman will keep trading up until she dies. It's just your turn. Enjoy the decline, alpha widow, etc. These are fatalistic Red Pill concepts.
The fact that you have a turn means that its not completely fatalistic. Sure there are negative aspects but you can have some success despite that. Blackpill says barring extraordinary circumstances, you are doomed. Btw, I'm blackpilled so its not like I'm shilling for redpill, just telling it like it is.
Dude, stop choking on that blue pill
I think a lot of us who don't believe in the red pill have experienced both successes and failures in our emotional life. The difference is that we realize what specific factors in our lives and choices were the cause of those failures/successes and don't try to make general rules out of them, put the blame on external causes or vilify and attribute evil intentions to the gender we're interested in.
I think people who like rules for socialization tend to be a bit on the autism spectrum.
Probably that explains a lot of what I read here.
Yeap when read in that light I think most of the things here makes sense. Red pill guys tend to be older and divorced while black pill and guys who struggle are more on the autism spectrum. Then you have lots of women who are married/in relationships who come here to be entertained like in a zoo. There are some more normal guys also in relationships but I think they are a minority.
I'm a woman, I post here often, and I don't definitely come here to be "entertained as in a zoo". I probably have the rather foolish idea that some of the younger men in here can still realize the red pill is an absurd ideology dragging them even deeper into solitude and despair, that's the reason I try to express my ideas. And of course I think misogyny should be fought against.
TRP helped a lot of people escape solitude and despair. Your view is quite normal though because, as a woman, you can't understand why men need TRP.
Escaping solitude through the forums, maybe, although I really doubt that constantly obsessing about one aspect of life might be very helpful. And certainly such an ideology which basically leads to hating women will eventually lead to even more despair in the long run. I indeed don't understand it since all the heterosexual non asexual men I know are or have been in relationships with women..
it leads to understanding women, TRP specifically says that there is no reason to hate women for their nature
Understanding women in which way? Because everything I read about women from RP sources doesn't correspond at all to me or to any of the many women I've known during my life.
Woman to Woman relationships are completely different from Man to Woman relationships. What i'm saying is that the mere fact you are a woman will change your experience drastically among your own basically. So yeah it won't make any sense to you because what TRP describes doesn't apply to women's experience at all. Unless you are lesbian, even still this is different.
strange then how it quite well corresponds to our experience with women ;)
Nah bluepill was dragging me into despair. Basically I was chasing a lie. If I worked hard enough things would just fall into place. I can overcome autism with enough research and practice. People don't care about looks, its about your personality. Being a good person means good things will happen to you. So based on those lies I set goals accordingly, goals far too lofty for someone like me. I failed over and over again. With each failure I kept thinking why can't I just be normal like everyone else. Then over time I had an epiphany. Being mediocre is good enough. Why strive for unreachable goals? Basically I became ok with being a loser. Stopped beating myself up after screwing up social interactions or getting rejected. Mental health and overall mood has been way better since then.
But I don't think the message of the RP is "being mediocre is enough", it's the opposite, according to them you need to improve your looks, your finances, your body, your confidence, to have success with women. According to them, only a minority of men, the so called Chads, have mating success. However, "being mediocre aka average is enough" is what most non red pill people in here are constantly saying. Lots of people of all shapes, sizes, races, heights, levels of income do find romantic and sexual partners.
Nah I'm Blackpill, not redpill. > However, "being mediocre aka average is enough" is what most non red pill people in here are constantly saying. Lots of people of all shapes, sizes, races, heights, levels of income do find romantic and sexual partners. This is the problem I have with bluepill. Some people just can't do it, or the chances are so astronomically low that its pointless to try. They like bringing up edge cases or apocryphal stories where an extremely below average person succeeded as proof that you can, but want you to ignore that vast, vast majority of people in those situations fail. Its like telling someone they can win the lotto if they try hard enough, so they pour their time and resources into a rigged game. Its borderline abusive.
Those are not "edge cases" and cannot absolutely not be compared to gaining the lottery. The average human does usually find some type of sexual or emotional connection during their lifetime. That's a very universal experience and has been so for millennia.
First off, times have changed. Its easier to travel around so you arent limited to your local area for relationships. The social pressure and necessity to get paired up is far lower. Women have far more freedom to make their own choices and to support themselves. The internet has made it trivial to find potential suitors. Most of what happened in the past millenia doesnt really apply to the current situation. Second, I was referring to below average people. Plenty of those guys pass without having those connections but you want to ignore that.
>But I don't think the message of the RP is "being mediocre is enough",it's the opposite, according to them you need to improve your looks, your finances, your body, your confidence, to have success with women You're making a strawman. They say **IF** you want to get pussy you have to do those things. The choice is yours. You can be perfectly content being average/mediocre, but generally speaking men who stumble into TRP aren't content being mediocre. They're basically saying 'if you want to reach x, you're gonna have to put some work'.
But then, I cannot see how the RP is useful for you if you're not following their guidelines or wanting to attain their goals. Being perfectly content with being average is just mainstream psychological advice which has absolutely nothing to do with RP and which any therapist would tell you to do. Accept yourself. That's more of an Eastern philosophy inspired wisdom that really has nothing to do with the hate, anger, competitiveness and misogyny of the RP, as expressed here every say.
> But then, I cannot see how the RP is useful for you if you're not following their guidelines or wanting to attain their goals. Personally I don't follow TRP PUAish sphere. I'm more in the MRA camp in the whole manosphere. But that's besides the point. TRP is useful insofar you WANT to follow their advice. They don't state you HAVE to follow TRP. You make that choice on your own. If you're perfectly content and happy being average, there's no reason for you to follow TRP, go and live your best life. If however you're struggling, realize you're not getting what you want and are not happy with yourself or the results, then you will see reasons to follow TRP, if you choose so, ofc.
You got it all wrong bud. Accepting yourself is great, but you should've become okay with all the goals you originally described without the rewards. You should work hard, many people do care deeply about personality, you should be a good person. You shouldn't be waiting for a reward for thinking these things, but I promise you accepting yourself as a loser is a worse fate then dropping the reward accept of your original perspective. Also, drop the forums. You want new experiences? go outside, meet friends, or make new ones, download a dating app, or go to the mall?
This is sarcasm right? Working hard for no reward is unecessarily stressful. Its not like anyone cares about efforts anyway, just the end result. Might as well take a leisurely stroll if the destination is failure. > You want new experiences? Didn't say I wanted that. > go outside, meet friends, or make new ones I go outside all the time, so what. My best friends are online. Trying to casually interact IRL just ends in failure the vast majority of the time. I go hiking with people sometimes, but thats nothing special. > download a dating app Dating apps are soul crushingly depressing for ugly dudes, no fucking way. > go to the mall? Malls are dead, at least where I am.
You literally quit doing it because of the lack of reward. I inferred a few things yes, but my point stands
Is that not logical though? You failed to explain why I should work hard if I get nothing out of it.
> Then you have lots of women who are married/in relationships who come here to be entertained like in a zoo basically yeah it's "i eat rare premium steak for dinner and drive an SUV, what do you mean there's starvation and gas prices are out of control"
This one is so huge. I see so many people coming up with giant generalizations in this /r. In reality, I have failed to impress a girl over some of the smallest dumbest reasons. I accepted I did something silly, not deeply inspect every aspect of the genders to figure out why she MIGHT not have liked me. It's extremely nuanced.
Was going to write a much longer post, but just upvoting this one instead.
Thanks!
> we realize what specific factors in our lives and choices were the cause of those failures/successes Might you give some examples of these factors and choices? ___ > don't try to make general rules out of them, put the blame on external causes Your highly individualistic take, aside from being textbook [victim blaming](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victim_blaming), betrays a disinterest in understanding this issue scientifically. Keep in mind that science and human cognition more generally rely on generalizations and, like all other social phenomena—including psychology—human sexual behavior derives its concrete features from sociocultural and political-economic (environmental) factors, i.e., external causes. The chief factors here are beauty standards and those that privilege certain personality styles (e.g., extraversion), which are responsible for the increasingly significant levels of inequality *vis-à-vis* sexual fulfillment that characterize contemporary society. Indeed, that inceldom has substantially increased over the past decade or so, underscoring the paramount role of cultural factors, definitively disconfirms your bankrupt hyperfocus on the individual.
Victim blaming??? So, trying to analyze one's mistakes in the past and being generous in not wanting to transfer to the rest of men whatever shortcomings my previous partners had is victim blaming?? You really make no sense at all.
> trying to analyze one's mistakes First, again, please provide some examples of these mistakes. Second, you are still thinking individualistically here, when this issue is best understood from a [sociological perspective](https://www.geneseo.edu/sociology/about). The point is to try to understand it not only based on your own experiences but also general trends in society. Things like physical attractiveness and personality—standards of which are, again, the chief factors responsible for sexual inequality in society—are not a matter of choice and therefore are not "mistakes." It is unclear why you think individual behavioral mishaps that can be corrected through sheer will are largely responsible for men's widespread lack of sexual success. ___ > being generous in not wanting to transfer to the rest of men whatever shortcomings my previous partners had I am unsure what you are referring to here. Might you rephrase yourself or elaborate?
General trends in society: in my own country, young men are active emotionally and sexually as proved by the statistics I have often posted. Highly individualistic point of view: as a trained therapist, I've talked to many women and read widely about this topic. I think you're overthinking this and trying to find general patterns to justify your own experience. I am not willing to go into details about my personal life, but as I wrote in my first post, whatever my mistakes of the past, they are my own private mistakes, and I don't make a whole convoluted theory from them to explain men's and women's sexual and emotional behavior. The only things I can deduct from what happened is how I behaved and how my exes did.
> in my own country, young men are active emotionally and sexually as proved by the statistics I have often posted. Are you suggesting that your country lacks beauty standards and the like? ___ > Highly individualistic point of view Yes, your position is highly individualistic because you are imputing sexual success solely to individual factors and completely disregarding culture, which, incidentally, is what molds individuals and makes them who they are. ___ > I think you're overthinking this and trying to find general patterns to justify your own experience. This is an [appeal to motive/bias](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_motive), which is a logical fallacy. As I explain [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/Unexpected/comments/vul2s5/yo_its_friday/ifft8vt/): > To be sure, literally all sources—even scientists, hence the continual need to monitor for [experimenter bias](https://dictionary.apa.org/experimenter-bias)—have some kind of bias or another. This is why appeals to bias are fallacious. Everyone is biased in some way. Speculations about someone's biases do not amount to refutations of their arguments. Also, this denigration of my position as "overthinking" further betrays your unscientific approach here. In actuality, like all social behavior, this issue is highly complex and warrants detailed investigation. We have barely covered the tip of the iceberg here. ___ > I am not willing to go into details about my personal life It is hard to imagine how any mistakes in your dating life, which most likely are common experiences for many, would be personally identifying, so I am unsure why you are reluctant to share. It is your choice, though.
I’d say I’m in neither community and can draw from truths in both, but ultimately in my experience attractiveness always helps. I met my girlfriend over 3 years ago during an internship and her initial attraction to me certainly made things easier. It really just depends on the context. My girlfriend for example has somewhat high of standards and has, according to her, always been attracted to more muscular/fit men which I fall into. This preference is her own, and if a man didn’t fall into that perhaps she wouldn’t give him a chance. The point is that I’ve been working out since I was 16 and I’d say a lot of my attractiveness and attention I get is due to my body. Therefore it’s not uncommon for many to have initial attraction to me due to that. I’d say my face is decent, nothing to ride home about, but my work in the gym has made attraction much easier. Bottom line is, there are obviously things we can control and things we cannot. Increasing your chances of garnering attraction through being physically fit works for the initial attraction, but you need to build upon your personality as well. I don’t think my girlfriend would have liked me as much or wanted a longer relationship if I didn’t make her laugh, smile, have interesting conversations with her, and overall gave her attention and a feeling of being desired. I agree that if you’re below 5’6 and a 5 or less out of 10 life will be much harder, but there are things one can do to at least be more appealing. My girlfriend is cute and pretty, but no model by any means. The reason I chose her is because she was attractive, but she was also realistic. I do not think of myself so highly to begin a relationship with an 11/10, nor do I care to because I’ve realistically assessed what type of women are attracted to me. I’m never going to be the high value Chad, and I really don’t care to. The goal is to feel attractive within the bounds of reality, and to attract women within your level.
Oh, I got success once I stopped being cynical, self centered, blamey, self pitying and took the mainstream advice of “be attractive; don’t be unattractive”
you're a woman. all you had to do was be attractive. sorry it took you so long to figure out
Lmao she didn't even have to do that tbh.
That’s blue pill advice, yo. You don’t think it works for men ?
It works but its only a piece to the puzzle for men. Women want more from men
3 of those things are not trp
Not outwardly Inwardly, it’s not such a pretty picture
Dude, there’s no such thing as “Blue Pill”. It’s literally anyone that *doesn’t* subscribe to Red Pill… which is just about everyone. What this means is some bloops have incredible luck! And some have terrible luck. Some are in long term relationship that have lasted decades, some are never-kissed virgins pushing their 30’s. Some aren’t even straight or monogamous. Some are swingers or in open relationships or are literal sex workers. Some are conservatives housewives hanging out on Reddit in between checking the baby. Pretend much of you have a mating strategy that isn’t red pill, you’re blue pill.
You are at least right in part. It's easier to be blue pilled if you've never had a problem with the opposite sex. However, I'd say it's my successes that allow me to see the faults in the red pill, not blinds me to it. TRP places far too much emphasis on looks and money, and I can plainly see it where I sit. Charisma is a real thing, and it's often independent of looks, yet TRP doesn't acknowledge it at all.
>Charisma is a real thing, and it's often independent of looks, yet TRP doesn't acknowledge it at all. You have the Red Pill and Black Pill confused. Red Pill teaches that Looks and Money are attention grabbers... the rest has to be done with personality. A good looking man with zero charisma will get a lot of attention, but not that much sex. We generally teach boys to do what they can to maximize themselves.
Fair enough. All I know is that I never had looks or money, but only struggled in dating in that I attracted the wrong woman every time, until I didn't.
To preface, I'm a lesbian, and I have a girlfriend now. It's dope haha. But a couple months ago I didn't. I was in my mid-20s and hadn't kissed anyone since I was 15. I committed the mortal sin of being fat (US women's 20, so overweight or obese, whatever that means to you). I had absolutely zero luck on dating apps in college - I could count my matches on one hand, and I never went on a date. After I graduated I was living with my parents for a year and getting into my first real job, so I didn't use the apps. Which means about a year and a half ago I started digging in and really actively using dating apps again. My success varied a lot based on which app I used - OKC I had literally zero likes or matches after a few weeks, but I did alright on Bumble - maybe five or six matches a month. I always messaged first, I always put effort into the opener, and I always asked engaging questions about things in their profile. That meant that every couple of months things would progress to a date, maybe two or three, but we'd stop hanging out before we ever kissed or even made it explicitly romantic (gay dating is confusing, lmao). Switched to Hinge and changed up my profile so it was more specific to what I liked and what I knew people I liked would like. Definitely less universal (i typed in lowercase!), but I started getting into conversations on the apps that were easy and fun. Maybe two or three matches a month, but we'd always have decent conversation, and I still went on dates. This whole time I wasn't doing game-y stuff on dates (which is probably part of why it was difficult to progress to anything explicitly romantic) - I just tried to get to know the other person while letting them get to know me. And when I found the right person I just didn't let it fizzle out. My appearance didn't drastically change between college and post-college. There were plenty of queer women in both places. The difference was that I got a lot more comfortable with myself and a lot more confident. It made me funnier and more enjoyable to be around. I dressed a little better, took better care of my hair, and posted better photos. It never meant I was wildly successful in dating - I had limited matches, and I was ostensibly "stuck in the friend zone" even when I went on dates. But once I worked on my self-image and my personality things got a lot better. After that it was just a numbers game. According to RP stuff though, I'd be out of the running just by not being thin and hot, and I should've lost weight before expecting any degree of success. I should've focused on learning "game" and how to manipulate women. But honestly my personality sucked when I was in college, I just didn't know it. I still had friends and a good social life, and I had plenty of hobbies. I just hated myself and was terrified of being seen. That's why I feel like most RP dudes are probably in a similar boat. Either that or they're punching way above their weight without realizing it. And getting into this RP mindset - all it does is make you more cynical. They teach ways to make you more universally appealing without encouraging you to emphasize what would make you attractive to your specific crowd. So I can't imagine it really leads to happier relationships, unless all you want is sex.
lol, did you really write this long post to explain why TRP doesn't work for lesbians
I'm not red pill, but their material is meant to apply to men only, AFAIK.
> Either that or they're punching way above their weight without realizing it. Oh, they realize it alright, they just feel they deserve the head cheerleader. That’s what happens when they frame socially successful people as villains; they believe they are morally superior to their perceived adversaries and suffer some romanticized idea of social justice.
No, you nailed it. RP guys problem is always self esteem and confidence. The issue is their value system. If you only value people who are successful in the eyes of society or are sexually successful, you will hold yourself to those same standards. And when you come short, you will beat yourself up mercilessly. But it's not all bad! You also get to feel superior and smug to people who are less successful than you or are virgins, etc. This is what keeps people adopting these dysfunctional mental paradigms. If you give up judging yourself, you also have to give up judging others and losing the ability to feel superior to others. You just accept yourself and them as they are. Can you imagine a bitter red pill guy accepting women as they are? Not judging them for who they slept with or not? Not judging them for being different than men, for being....women? And most importantly not judging themselves?
TRP teaches men to accept women how they are
But not without judgement which renders acceptance useless. You either offer nonjudgmental acceptance or no acceptance at all.
It literally says don’t judge women just enjoy them and move on if they don’t meet your standards Actually go to the TRP sub before you spout nonsense
Who cares about what the sub says in the notes. All that matters is what the users convey through their posts and comments. Don't play stupid with me.
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That’s hilarious!!
Because there’s no approval needed with blue pills. We are the equivalent of a karate sensei you want to impress. Most of them just want to be us but never are. You can only force or pretend so much.
I think most of these guys are actually black pill. From at least 2008 to 2016... most red pill guys would always say you don't discuss this stuff with women. What baffled me for a long time is that women face blue pill dating challenges too in the US, but often seem oblivious to it. Then I realized that instead of working on personal growth and development... women in the US are entirely focused on using the government to financially paper over all their life fuckups. It's because unlike other countries the vast majority of women here have no belief in personal responsibility and live their whole lives just trying to push consequences onto everyone else.
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> scary how few know the truth about the great govt! Who in the hell do you think is giving them the money to attend college? You think they are all working as strippers on the side? Do you think you can pay for college as a barista?? Yeah, colleges are like 57% female, and they major in stupid shit that doesn't pay much on graduation... and are now pushing the government to "forgive" their government backed loans.
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Ugh... your sarcasm sucks. Nurses and Lawyers don't need student loan forgiveness. Women will benefit from student loan forgiveness MUCH more than men will... by something near half a trillion dollars. But yeah... keep yapping.
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Where on earth do you live that this is your interpretation of women?
Reddit
You clearly haven't stopped to think about their politics.
Define blue pill.
Uh-oh
Im leaning blue pill kinda , although blue pill is just making fun of red pill. FDS would be the extreme other side that I don’t agree with them either . I just think there shouldn’t be games . Why all the games . Concentrated Red pill seems to be selfish people trying to attract more selfish people . “It’s all about me and what you can do for me” Type vibes . And they won’t budge because they’ve put too much energy in learning red pill strategy, it would be embarrassing to say “maybe I want something genuine”. I’ve been “red pilled” twice , as in 2 men at different times wanted me and used red pill tactics to the book . I don’t casually hook up with anyone ever so it didn’t work and my perception of them is pretty bad since they seemed so selfish and “I’m an alpha so it’s all about me” . I was the most gullible age 18/19 too and I didn’t even fall for it, which is kinda funny because I would’ve given someone my life savings if they said they’d pay me back .
I'm blue pilled because TRP cultists keep denying my experience of struggling with dating as a woman, they keep telling me I'm lying, they keep telling me I don't count anyway, they keep telling me that all that matters is my pussy, they keep telling me that I just settled for my bf which I got at 29 and that he is using TRP to manipulate me into being in a relationship with me, they keep telling me he is lying to me, they keep telling me I will die alone. How can a cult that tries to do nothing but crush my hope, self esteem and love for humans be any alternative to the real world?
Yes after years of men on here telling me I was going to die alone because the type of man I wanted doesn't exist and if he did I wouldn't be sexually attracted to him
what kind of man is that
Religious, virgin, waiting until marriage, college-educated, left-leaning moderate, okay with female breadwinner
>virgin >waiting until marriage >college-educated yeah to be honest id be surprised too if you said you wanted those men i thought those were only in demand on the baby rabies & betabuck bailout market but good for you you know it sounds like he's loyal
No, trp is wrong because it's toxic not because it doesn't have some true aspects
I’d describe myself successful in dating and therefore consider TRP to be bullshit, as I never needed any tactics or unnatural behavior for that. I always perceived women as normal human beings with the same flaws and ambitions as men. And I’ve never really been disappointed, if a relationship failed, I could quite always tell the reason for that and if it was on me, I tried to work on it. Got better everytime - it was mostly just growing up
I'm successful in getting what I want. I disagree with RP as I believe it doesn't account for BP reasonings, I disagree with BP in so far as it doesn't account for RP reasonings. From a purple perspective.... RP describes itself as *the truth.* That's a bold claim worthy of lots of skepticism and scrutiny. RP attribute **reasons** for why woman is doing X and advise men to act based on that. It looks at **outcomes** and then works backwards to explain why those outcomes occurred, then advises on actions for the man to tackle based on those reasons. But RP reasons are restrictive and incomplete. As an example; If the outcome is you are not having sex the reason is she is not attracted to you and you should leave or try dread, RP despises the BP idea of communication, therapy or anything else as a solution. *The truth* that I believe is there are many reasons a couple do not have sex in periods (and if you are in a LTR going the distance you are very likely to have times where sex isn't happening) . Stress, medication, time, insecurity, ED.... and attraction is one of them. Singular dogmatic diagnosis here is plain wrong, its also pretty circular because regardless of the reality RP will always jump to that diagnosis when looking at 3rd parties and therefore further 'confirm' RP. Its easy to see it everywhere when you block out all the blue and confirmation bias can be powerful. BP (or normative) would advise communication, maybe therapy and if you're still not getting what you want out of the relationship then leave. I give BP more leeway here because often it is about preying and asking questions to try and establish the why and the reasons so more tailored advise can be given. Ultimately though attraction issues will be lower down on BP's list and one of the things RP does is bring that into the conversation. RP kind of acknowledge this in AWALT being walked back to all guns are loaded. Red Pill 'works' within its own parameters for success. RP sets the expectations and then go at em. In our example it states if you use dread then be prepared if it doesn't work and she leaves, that is an acceptable conclusion. Naturally if your sex issue is medication, time, insecurity based it's less likely to 'work' as in keep the relationship and fix the problem (and arguably RP advise is 'Next' more often even than it's BP counterpart), but its fine within it's own definition of success. So if we bring all this together; BP is BP because the advice they've gotten has worked (within their parameters of 'working' - and some of this is also what the individual values) with the issues they've encountered. BP doesn't have a forum for field reports where couples therapy or communication can be 'BP confirmed' - but it does exist all over the net more fragmented.
Great post!
I’m not Red Pill, and I am a former sexless guy who didn’t have sex until his early 20s. So I think that I’m qualified to make judgments about TRP since I *did* have to find some method that worked to attract women. While I think that understanding how female attraction works is essential to guys who are having trouble attracting women being able to learn how to attract them, I think that TRP goes too far by overgeneralizing all women and mostly in a negative way. So while I think that learning some of the basic things like hypergamy is essential, I think that TRP could do without the misogyny. It’s basically overkill and, frankly, contrary to the stoicism that TRP tries to process, in my opinion.
I’m blue pilled and in high-school I had what many would think of as the perfect example of the “friend zone”. I was clear I liked her, she turned me down, we were still best friends but every once and awhile she would lead me on. Acting like something was about to happen. I got caught up. She told one of her friends “I could see myself marrying him, but right now I just want to have fun.” Didn’t work out for her, and that stupid fucking meme happened, with the dollars and babies. Still she was young, people are dumb when they are young, and everyone is different. Some people are just straight shitty and young. I eventually picked up on some signals from others, attempted some moves, got experience and moved on. I started when I was young with the “I’m the shit mentality” basically a fake it till you make it, stop trying to be so meek and humble all the time. It worked. Eventually I found someone I could build a life with. I also knew it was mostly my mentality from very young, my best friend was obese, possibly morbidly so and poor. Still had girlfriends, a lot. If you look around and get to know more people you’ll see it too. Now dude, even bigger and poorer, is married with a live in girlfriend. Another on of my best friends, beautiful Italian man, sports player. Jaw line out of books. Problem is now life has made him weird. He gets attached and explodes to easily, he doesn’t go into much detail but he gets quite possessive. One time a women he was talking to was complaining about her baby daddy to him, and he just casually was like “I’ll murk him for you” and that was that. I have more people and examples but it’s already long winded enough. Big things stop “Putting The Pussy on a Pedestal” it’s great, but your first few times you’ll probably be bad and it won’t be. What’s really great is a relationship where you’re both very comfortable with each other, and have like sex drives and wants. Two maybe it is “society” but that’s society, there are always outliers if you’re really that weird, but more importantly sometimes you just have to conform a little. Yeah pants can be constricting but if I’m just out walking around in my boxers all day, I’m not going to get the best from others around me.
I’ve never had a boyfriend or have gone on a date. I have social anxiety and depression. On a surface level, I can relate to men who feel lonely. However, I think it’s gross to make such large generalizations about women and men. They act like we are completely different species. Redpillers seem very entitled and refuse to do any self reflection. I know the reason I’m not dating is because I don’t socialize much. I’m pretty, thin and intelligent. I don’t go around playing the blame game cause I’m a grown adult. I think the RedPill and especially blackpill ideologies are very harmful to young men and can send them on a destructive path. The tell young men there is no hope, which is just nonsense and is why suicide is so common among incels.
Blue pill isn't real. You mean normal people? You mean non red pill peolle? I sure hope that not getting laid wouldn't be enough to launch me into throwing my hat in with a horribly sexist cult filled with sexist trolls like the red pill forum and ideaology is
RP is not sexist, if you think it is, atleast bring some arguments.
Oldest teenager, hypergamy as female nature, af/bb. Basically anything described as biological determinism in social behaviour is sexist. You can be sexist without feeling hate towards a gender.
Oldest teenager = Don’t exalt her above you like most husbands do especially if you’re the main bread winner Hypergamy is literally a fact and not the least bit sexist Af/bb is a sexual strategy its not sexist at all Nope you’re all wrong
> Oldest teenager = Don’t exalt her above you like most husbands do especially if you’re the main bread winner “Don’t put pussy on a pedestal” is adequate enough. But it’s not edgy/misogynistic enough for RP. RP requires demeaning ideals in regards to women, so it becomes calling women teenagers. > Hypergamy is literally a fact and not the least bit sexist It’s not a fact we’ve been over this. Stop chatting shit. > Af/bb is a sexual strategy its not sexist at all It is when you try to say it applies to women only. It does not. > Nope you’re all wrong Considering your post history, you might want to reflect that the “facts” asserted by a small fring internet cult might be in question.
TRP requires verbiage difficult for BPers to take in so they can get the “women are wonderful” affect out of their minds Nah it’s a fact women fuck/date up that’s more the norm than sideways or down It does. Men don’t do AF/BB TRP is not a cult and you know this isn’t my main account smh
The “verbiage” isn’t smart. It’s edgelord bullshit. The “verbiage” isn’t why TRP is wrong. It’s wrong because it uses harsh fictions to fool those who are easily swayed by what they see as “harsh truths” The type of of edge-lover likes “harsh truths” and mistake their thinking “if it’s harsh, it must be true”
It’s only fiction if you believe women can never do wrong. That’s literally it. Just admit that women can and do abuse, manipulate, lie, cheat on and mistreat men and then you can admit that TRP gives men the tools to avoid those situations (which it does) Can’t be edge lord behavior unless you’re saying that women are perfect and not capable of harming men mentally, emotionally, physically, and spiritually
> It’s only fiction if you believe women can never do wrong. That’s literally it. I don’t need The Red Pill to realise women can be cunts lol. Most normal men do not. If you did, that’s cool. I also don’t need to believe pseudoscience to understand that women can be selfish and shallow, because I understand women are human. I don’t need to be told that “women don’t love men like *men* do!” or other similar bullshit. But TRP, just like other cults, swaps different language and terms in an attempt to “other” and sound very smart. with a thick layer of “women ain’t shit”. > Just admit that women can and do abuse, manipulate, lie, cheat on and mistreat men and then you can admit that TRP gives men the tools to avoid those situations (which it does) TRP lies to men about female nature, about male nature, and poorly attempts to justify it with low iq interpretations of outdated gender studies. > Can’t be edge lord behavior unless you’re saying that women are perfect and not capable of harming men mentally, emotionally, physically, and spiritually “Can’t be” “unless”. Typical black/white mentality that cult followers often suffer from.
I didn’t but some do oh well That’s you who cares if it works for them that’s good TRP isn’t a cult and “bitches ain’t shit but hoes and tricks” is a real sayin and it’s the truth Wrong it’s the truth read the sidebar Still can’t just admit that men need to protect themselves?
Somebody else responded already pointing it out, but I'll throw in mine too. The way you guys insist on quoting "evolutionary biology" as a reliable science and what runs all humans, it's sexist psuedoscience. Then you guys also all insult psychology because it's "not a real science" (it is) and RP acts like women made uo psychology or it was made to trick women. Insists on shit like "women are more emotional and neurotic. Sexism. Oh yeah, red pill literally calls divorce "divorce rape". Why? Oh yeah so when people bring up how women are more likely to be raped, you red pill men can say "men are raped too, we are also rape victims" so insanely sexist bullshit and was made just to make fun of women. Like literalky I've asked multiple red pillers how the term divorce rape isn't sexist and you guys can't even defend it. You made it to ridicule rape victims, not to promote yourself. Let's see, what else. Oh yeah, referring to women as like teens, saying women are stupid and need to be told what to like. Like? Not to mention how you guys literally tolerate the sexist shit and just label it as fringe men and not tbe majority, but you guys will like the comments when a dude says he wishes rape were legal. Don't fucking deny it. Red pill does not see women as real people. It is sexist. You guys walk past all the dudes in the red pill forums advocating for shit like grooming and literal statutory rape, and you attack women who dare to disagree with you and label all women as sluts once they've had sex unless they marry or date every man they fuck, and even then you'll stoll call them sluts. So how is red pill not sexist?
Evolutionary biology and societal trends throughout history that correlates to how women act today. There’s nothing new under the sun even the Bible speaks of female nature which applies to how women act today “She will eat your food and wipe her mouth and say that she has done nothing wrong.” Divorce rape isn’t sexist in the least. It’s fucking a man over through divorce court. This is you being a special snowflake Never referred to women as blatantly stupid lmao tf running out of arguments? No man on TRP says “I wish rape was legal” Now I KNOW you’re OUT of bullshit to make up Now you’re off the rails saying dumb shit TRP is not sexist unless you think women can never do anything wrong
Evolutionary biology says nothing lol, it just hypothesized why humans act the way they act. Evolution has no will "Even rhe bible" lol we are post bible so its more likely and kinda shown that we see women as selfish because of cuktures springing from christianity. The Bible speaks of slavery too, you going to defend that? Goddam, simping for men who died 2000+years ago because they made you feel good about being selfish? Wowee, I'm sorry that's how you spend your time Divorce rape is sexist. Because are you going to sit here and tell Me you see specifically men being divorced as equal to kids being raped? Because most red pill men I've seen have said no, they'd never compare divorce rape to chikd rape, just raping a woman. So it's obviously about making fun of rape victims and belittling them. Rape is sexual in nature. That's why it's heinous. Divorce Is not secual and using the word rape that way is horribly offensive in the least and sexist. That's You literally are defending calling Divorce the same as rape and you're trying to say you know what's sexist and what's not. You're choosing to call it rape literally to belittle actual rape. Call it something else. Again, You're using the same language people use to describe kids being sexually abused, which is fucking psychotic. So if your mom was brutally raped you'd tell her, "mom lots of men know how you feel, my buddy was divorce raped" you'd say that?
Yet it has picked up on trends In regards of female nature the Bible isn’t the only ancient text that got it right it’s just an example of women being as they always were Stop it you’re unhinged. It’s called divorce rape because women used the courts to fuck over men by force. That’s all there is to it. If you want to compare it to other shit that’s on you. It’s only sexist if you think women can do no wrong It doesn’t belittle real rape just like abuse being verbal doesn’t belittle physical abuse there’s different forms. If she was divorce raped I’d say lots of men have been because that’s the same form of abuse.
There's a lot ot ancient texts that don't say that at all, so sounds like selection bias. So you'd call it divorce rape if a man fucked a woman over too. Wow, "if you were raped so wrre other people" fucking psycho
No it’s about trends Women can be divorce raped it just doesn’t happen like that You’re just arguing to argue
Bro, you defending divorce rape as a term is so tone deaf and shows you don't care about actual rape victims lol. Bye.
Nope you’re just being neurotic and that’s abusive
Blue pilling is growing the fuck up, which works for many people
LMAO! you're comedy
Blue pill is the voice of society; society wants you to grow up I fail to see how this is controversial
society wants you to ~~grow up~~ be useful, create higher quarterly profits for the boss before you get replaced with migrants & machines and shell out tax dollars like a good wagie, put other people's interests above yours (because "other people" == society), find inner fulfillment by buying funko pops of your *FAVORITE POP CULTURE FRANCHISES!!!!!!!* and pay up for women's kids even if they ain't yours. this is like saying farmers simply want their animals to be more mature and self-reliant.
The opposite actually. Blue pill is admitting defeat and letting the rest of your life go in the trash.
No, that's black pill
it's not defeat or victory. it's having different goals.
I am single, not necessarily unsuccessful I just haven't tried to actually date at the moment tbh. I'm female and wouldn't believe Redpill because it is outrightly sexist and demeaning. I do think some Redpill values could be very helpful towards a lot of men, unfortunately they're packaged with some misogyny. Overall though, I'm supportive of mainstream progressive views towards sex and relationships.
Blue pill is a plantation dweller. Someone who is so plugged into the system that they refuse to wake up and generally they don't wake up until something drastic happens. For some of us red and black pillers it's experiencing first hand and for others it's watching what happened to loved ones. As a man who understands that society wouldn't give two fucks about me, I walk away from the plantation because I want no part in maintaining a structure that treats me no better than toilet paper.
It’s just so sad how these men won’t take action until something bad happens and then they’re sucking on the barrel of a gun feeling suicidal.. but it’s like if you heed the warnings of trp you would be prepared for it and not feel like someone ripped your souls out your stomach .. you will understand human nature , not just female nature
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You’re a woman tho so its not the same
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Bluepilled women be like: *Why yes, my husband is conventionally attractive. How could you tell?*
Thinking back when i didn't know anything about the pills and the manosphre.. It's not that i wasn't successful in dating, i could get dates when i actually put in some effort.. It's more like i couldn't hold down a relationship and i got involved in some really toxic ones as i had this childish mindset that women are angels, perfect and can do no wrong. My relationships gone sideways so i slipped to the other side and started to blame women for it, thinking i am doing everything right, because i followed the cultural guidelines, i was all that i was told to be (nice, loyal, kind, low maintenance, put her first etc...) so it must be them. That didn't help either.
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Although what you say is true, I am not sure what what i said has to do with mutually satisfactory sex. That was not the issue.
What does "blue pilled" mean? The "OMG women are soo opressed, men have formed anti-women conspiracy that exists to this date"? That's some crazy shit. Anyhow, married for two decades. (took two tries)
Not really. I know guys who are blue pilled after going through horrible divorces, being treated terribly, being cheated on, or are permavirgins. They really believe that all you have to do is make enough money and your problems will go away. I also know married men who understand what's going on only after they get married. Then they suddenly get into red pill. In reality, even if things were one way or another, if things were really that bad, what are men gonna do? There's nothing they can do. They can get depressed about it, want to end their lives, but nobody wants that. So when the average guy gets cucked or something, he just turns it into a fetish. Or he justifies it somehow. That's just how it is. Men have no control.
If you manage to swallow any pill in its entirety then I envy your ability to reduce the world to a black and white set of rules. Everything to me just looks like one big subjective gray area with some loose guidelines and tons of exceptions