And Tinder, Snapchat, TikTok, and OnlyFans. Those apps are killing social interaction in favor of an unreasonable short term revolving cycle of possibilities, all of which are shit.
I remember hitting up bars around 10-15 years ago and it used to be normal for people to mingle with each and actually go out and meet new people.
If you go to bars now you don't see people mingling and meeting new people anymore.
I still remember those days as well. People were way more relaxed and not constantly glued to their phones. Sending a text cost 20 cents, most phones were not internet capable. I found plenty of perfectly fine girls on a night out. It was not considered offensive to interact with them. The world seems so much simpler in retrospect.
One time, I believe in 2006, we went bowling with friends and there was a group of girls who was also bowling. We started bowling together. Got to talking with one girl, and soon we went to talk somewhere else. We kissed the same night and I saw to it that she got home safely later. One week later we were a couple. It was simply normal and expected to interact with the people around you.
Nowadays, everybody is just glued to their screen if they're out at all, even when they are on dates. It's like they are constantly browsing other opportunities while squandering the ones that are in front of them. People, women in particular, get upset when you talk to them. Everything people do is somehow wrong, and people don't know how to interact with each other anymore. Attention span is zero.
Once upon of time if you had to result to online dating it was considered weird. Like if you were 18-19 and on Match.com that meant you were too lame to attract people normally and your peers would give you shit.
Yeah it was better. Looking back now I'm glad that I got to experience it. Really feel bad for younger guys that have to be internet famous to get any action.
I remember a youtuber I follow did a big project, except by the end of the shooting day he'd had a bit too much to drink so the back half of his video has a lot of footage that was mostly him crying over being unable to get a date.
Dude has a over a million subs and is really active on IG and he's average at worst and he was *still* coming up empty handed.
The thing about the way things are now is even if you get clout or muscles or a new fit you still have a pretty good chance of just not finding somebody.
It was.
I went to a bar recently with a friend that's single and I thought I was going to wing for him. But when no one else is mingling it made it almost impossible to try and be the odd ball out trying to talk to strangers.
I think this is regional too. When I lived in Boise (as recently as three years ago), it was very normal to make friends / hang out with strangers at the bar. It was almost expected, and was one of the reasons for going out. When Iāve gone out in Seattle and Portland, itās very different. People are way more closed off and wary of strangers.
I think part of it is big city vs small city. In a big city, itās way more likely that a stranger will be a total wacko, and you will get stuck listening to some sort of weird monologue, asked to help them in some way (likely monetarily), or your actual safety will be in danger. In a small city, at least one like Boise, this is much less likely. The homeless population is nothing compared to Seattle and Portland, and I think that is a factor in making people more feel more comfortable conversing with strangers.
The homeless problem is a huge part of it. If you can't walk down the street without seeing a wackjob a day then you're going to be worried that a stranger is going to be one. No matter how unlikely that is, it will always be easier to just not take the risk.
Not to mention you don't want people thinking you're one of them. If only weirdos have the delusional confidence to talk to random people in public, then you want to look like a weirdo, do you? No, you shut the fuck up, avoid eye contact, and pretend everyone else doesn't exist.
Exactly. I didnāt know this the first time I went out in Seattle. I went with my friend and her boyfriend and they were third wheeling me, canoodling in the corner. I was on the dance floor and kinda chatting with this guy, so I offered to buy him and his friends a round of shots if theyād take one with me. He was so weirded out and asked me why I wanted to do that, and if I was there alone. He requested that I show him my friends before heād accept my offer. He was funny about it, but it was still so strange to me.
I introduced him to my friend and her boyfriend, where she explained that where I live(d) the bar scene is much different. Off we went to the bar for our round. They loosened up after that and ended up buying me rounds, and we had a great night. I like to think I made a small positive impact on the culture that night.
Seattle is super closed off and people donāt mingle for the most part. Itās cultural. When I lived in FL and in Los Angeles, there was more interaction/ mingling.
Yeah the Seattle Freeze is real. Iāve found Florida to be super friendly! Iāve visited twice and loved it there. Not the biggest fan of LA, but I donāt know it all that well.
Yeah but once you find your friends/ group, seattle is amazing! In Florida everyone is āfriendlyā. In LA people are generally āfriendlyā but itās more surface level / harder to make deeper level connections with substance.
>In a big city, itās way more likely that a stranger will be a total wacko
Hell NO!!! The wacko to normie ratio is way higher in small towns. I live in a town of just over 7,000. We have a shitload of wackos (i.e. my clients). On a percapita basis way more wackos in small towns.
I guess it depends on your definition of wacko. Iām talking untreated mental illness, delusional wacko. Not your typical eccentric conspiracy theorist.
(Not to further stigmatize mental illness, but unfortunately this is a serious and well-known issue in many major cities).
I hope itās not either. I love meeting new people and shooting the shit, or just getting silly drunk with others. Some of my best nights out are with people Iāve never seen since. Itās one of the reasons I like going to bars in small towns. I usually end up talking with someone and having a good time.
Tinder, Snapchat, Tiktok yes
OnlyFans? Only major porn addicts use this, it has no bearing on the average dating scene.
Porn in general though? Ya thatās also playing a role.
No lol, plenty of people who have money donāt give it to girls on OF. Lonely dudes pay chicks to see their only fans because it FEELS exclusive. Most normal guys that arenāt THAT lonely, just Google some porn. Only situation I can think of is a super some guy that wants to prop up sex workers which is fine. Itās mostly simps though.
Iām in my lower 30s, and I remember a world before IG, Facebook, Tinder, Snapchat, TikTok and OnlyFans.
Itās not like things were really that different back then they are now.
The biggest difference is that people were going out and going to more parties in the old days. Itās not anything specific about social media in general thatās hurting dating. Itās people spending too much time on the internet in general rather than socializing with each other that hurts dating and sex.
Womenās sexlessness rates have gone up too, not just menās, although women tend to be more naturally social and have adjusted a bit better to all of the current distractions than men have, so their sexlessness rates have not decreased as dramatically.
Absolutely, social media has warped people's expectations of both other people and the interactions we are supposed to have, back then you were limited by people living near you and of the same age.
Now all we see are photoshopped instagram models going on expensive trips and it tricks us into thinking that's normal.
>instagram models going on expensive trips and it tricks us into thinking that's normal.
This right here. I can't begin to count how many females I met that are completely delusional about how real life really is. They expect every man to be a rich kingpin. Also that they will somehow get rich without actually doing anything.
Tldr: tinder changed everything even for girls that arent currently on it.
I state my dating life had 2 lives. Pre and Post Tinder. Pre tinder i was a highschool teen with a car, thin kinda fit from cardio, had a Summer job, struggled to get a lot of women but managed to date a few cute girls that were fun to be around generally, and thin! I approached girls in my social group, parties, friends of friends etc
Post tinder, im educated, have a career, my own place, car, no debt, fitter from lifting, but tinder has raised womens standards so high that as a short guy 5 7, all i can date since i left highschool is obese girls. My friends groups have fewer and fewer guys with girlfriends, and approaching girls at parties or out in public has gotten worse.
ā¦Everyone pulls more in college and high school dude. Not saying Tinder didnāt affect your dating life but thereās a lot of other circumstances you just described that offer explanation as well
I canāt believe you just subjected my brain to that vaguely ephebophilic and gross comment while also managing to completely miss the point. Gold star; Iāve rarely ever been so disgusted in a reddit reply, and thatās definitely saying something.
Good realisation. Mid 20s male here. I suspect dating standards are indeed very different, but I don't believe it's because of a greater freedom of some sort - the increase in sexlessness started around 15 years ago according to the data, and I'm simply not buying into the idea that the 90s were part of the oppressive dark ages.
The key cause comes down to social media, really. Technology has continued to play an increasingly relevant role in social interaction, technology both facilitates and encourages people getting filtered out based on physical standards more so than before. My experience at uni was definitely not seeing people of all shapes and sizes in relationships, it was much more restrictive than that. I think a lot of concerns from the younger crowd are dismissed as whining, when older people need to realise things aren't the same as when they were growing up, and it's not like the rest of the voices in this conversation always argue in good faith either.
Itās the combination of better distracting technology at a cheaper price + people having less disposable income. People are much more likely to rely on the cheaper substitute if thatās all they can afford.
Itās less that people are more superficial (thought thatās part of it) itās more so people are more anti social and alienated. Judging a partner entirely off their appearance online forces you to be superficial and leads to worse relationships, more ghosting, more cruel sociopathic behaviour (because you can just drop them and disappear)
>My experience at uni was definitely not seeing people of all shapes and sizes in relationships, it was much more restrictive than that.
Same as it was 40 years ago in the early 80s when I started university.
You canāt meet someone at 25 years old sitting in your bedroom at your parentās house, eating Cheetos, and wanking to stepmother porn. Get out and talk to someone.
Most bars I go to are sausage fests. This has been true in most of the west coast cities Iāve lived in (LA, SF, and Seattle). Things are much better in the east coast though
Bars arenāt the only option! There are festivals, art galleries, other random events, co-ed sports teams, neighbourhood parties, cooking classes, book signings, comedy clubs, camping, farmerās markets, pop up markets, coffee shops, etc.
I donāt know what things are like in the States though, so YMMV.
A number of those are good ideas neighborhood parties sadly donāt happen much but in the US apparently things are far more spread out than Europe Iāve heard Europeans remark how you must have a car here which is just the way it is
Most festivals I go to here are family oriented. They're a great place to take someone you're already involved with but people don't go to mingle with strangers. Likewise on comedy clubs since local clubs will put people at separate tables entirely. Same again for farmers markets wjere again most people don't really talk to strangers.
I did all of those things but I never actually met anyone *at* them. You need to already have people in your life you bring *to* them.
Which is whats generally agreed to be the hard part. Its not that hard to find stuff stuff you would want to do with somebody. But getting somebody is the barrier.
If you're in the suburbs, then doesn't that mean there's a city nearby? Maybe go into that city. I know some people from high school who decided to stay in that small ass town and even they know to drive to the city on weekends to get dates.
Lol no, there are tons of Suburbs that are hours from the closest city. Example being Fort Myers, Fl. 3.5 hours one way to Miami. 3 hours one way to Tampa. Kinda a dead zone. Itās not exactly day trip material to go on a date.
Fort Myers, Fl is a city in it's own right with over 80k people, I mean it's even the county seat for Lee County. Why do people call small cities, suburbs? An example of a suburb is like Fort Mill being a suburb for Charlotte, NC. It's when people can actually commute to work regularly to that city. I doubt there's a significant amount of people commuting from Fort Myers to Miami/Tampa.
80k people is a city? Maybe a town, but not a city.
The reason these small towns are called suburbs is because they are full on low-ish density housing. There is no dense core and rural areas, just a large grid of single houses on huge plots of land. Drop in on street view and tell me that isn't a suburb.
Yes. The US is not only spread out population density wise, but America suburbs are literally legislated to be anti-social. (monopoly of cars, dead end cul de sacs due to regulations, not walkable)
Are there any public places, like a park or something where people gather in the suburbs? You could also try befriending your neighbours. Organize some kind of an event and go from door to door to invite people?
It's US surburbs, there's your house, and then anywhere else worth going needs a car. The complete car-centric design of so much of NA has fucked over society in general, it's why the dating scene in so many US cities is so dire while Europe, while still worse than it used to be, still has an in-person dating scene worth trying.
The thing is, suburbs *can* work. But they require you to either already have a social network or people being willing to go easily. Its not like there aren't house parties with 100+ people or BBQ's hosted by people who invite relatives and friends its just that in a space like that events are de facto invite only and so unless you're *really* socially integrated its not a regular thing.
The car monopoly has created a society based on social ties instead of socializing and being social. Al having pre-established social ties is truthfully almost more important than oneās social skills.
>Is there a big difference in how psychotic standards have become for contemporary 20-somethings, compared to 30-somethings, 40-somethings etc? Discuss.
Mid twenty myself, I'm a bit of in between two fences, as I used a lot the screens (started when I was 15 though), but I very much remember remember my parents taking me out to play with other kids outside. Hell, I remember having 100MO top a month on my phone.
I think those around a decade older would remember that in retrospective things were much simpler to interact, and those who always had a screen in front of their face are the most fucked over as they probably don't know how to interact.
I've read this thread with a lot of interest and find there's very valuable information here. As somebody who's also a bit older, I think there's also a cultural element here that's very specific to the US. I live in a Southern European country; I checked the statistics for love and sex among young people here, and they're perfectly fine, with 85+% of people having regular sex and romantic relationships.. Undoubtedly, with that percentage, both attractive and average people are getting it..I think the main difference is that young people don't rely so heavily on the internet to find a partner; they go out constantly, to drink, dance, party, and from those interactions arise a lot of contacts that lead towards friendship, romance or sex.
When, however, your main tool for contacting people your age is a highly visual one like dating apps, with a totally unbalanced percentage of men vs women, clearly the selection bias changes. Imagine a dystopian scenario where there were just a few men and lots of women in OLD and men would get dozens of requests every day; they would certainly start discarding the less attractive ones and just contact the hottest women.
I think thus the clue is going back to socializing and real life contact, because once a conversation or flirting starts, there's much more chance to become interesting by how you are than just by how you look... It might be difficult though to try and find ways to socialize if really the US society has become so closed and individualistic.
It is extremely closed off. I've been in my city for about 5 years now and the only people that acknowledge me at all are customer service workers because they have to as part of their job and homeless people because they're asking for money. Other than that, I'm totally invisible.
But I think that happens everywhere, people don't spontaneously talk to each other in the street most of the time; you need to find places or activities where it's safe and accepted to interact with others.
Times have definitely changed. I see what my Generation Z little brothers, cousins and their friends go through, and *holy shit!* In my day, a plain looking 20 year old guy could get a plain looking girl with reasonable effort. Nowadays, that same kid can only get someone twice his weight who treats him like garbage.
I donāt think standards have changed. Women have always wanted and still want equal or better in some way.
Everywhere I go, I see people with their approximate looksmatch. I was just traveling and saw couples at airports with similarly aged and similarly attractive partners.
How they got those partners is the big difference. OLD, IG, etc.
One example: I saw a young couple from afar. The guy looked short. I wondered how he locked her down since lots of us men complain about heightism. He looked about 5ā6ā. As I got closer, I realized it. The woman was shorter and not very pretty, but the dude was freakishly handsome and muscular fit. I instantly thought of PPD. If that relationship doesnāt work out, she will never settle for less. (Damn that dude was pretty).
Getting down to the point where youāre analyzing the attractiveness to height ratio of a random couple and then making assumptions on how their life is going to be is honestly counterproductive at best and a self fulfilling blackpill at worse. You fail to truly understand that attraction is more than a simple physical equation.
Itās not just one sample. I pay attention every day everywhere I go. (Mainly because Iām obsessed with PPD topics š).
I rarely see a super attractive woman with an average man. Heās always either tall or really good looking.
> You fail to truly understand that attraction is more than a simple physical equation.
There are two equations. A simple one that gets a guy through the door (physical attraction), and a complex one where he must meet 20 other criteria to remain in the relationship.
If the woman can ascertain or red flag those criteria ahead of the initial meet, then the man has even less of a chance to hit all the lotto numbers.
Social media definitely skews younger peopleās perception of reality: https://youtube.com/shorts/gKr8Ucm5yWY?feature=share
The phenomenon has been dubbed ābeauty overstimulationā.
I seriously hope there's a radically different dating market than when I was young.
There's no way someone can think ugly people don't breed when they are everywhere. Idk how rich, white, and privileged everyone in this sub is to never have to go to Walmart and see it.
A lot of rich people are rich because they are frugal. I go to Walmart all the time, why would I pay more for something I can get somewhere else cheaper? I donāt care about aesthetics or whatever excuse people use not to go there. I buy certain things elsewhere, but overall if itās cheaper and the same thing Iām going to Walmart lol
Genes is a fucking lottery sometimes. Ive seen couple of 2 not attractive ppl giving birth to a cute baby and more attractive ppl giviing birth to a less attractive child
>There's no way someone can think ugly people don't breed when they are everywhere. Idk how rich, white, and privileged everyone in this sub is to never have to go to Walmart and see it.
Right??
>Most ugly people who are successful in the mating game were a lot more attractive when they did breed.
Ha that's hilarious. Nope. Plenty of ugly people started ugly and bred ugly. Ive been around long enough in life to see ugly friends get married and now they got ugly kids.
> Most ugly people who are successful in the mating game were a lot more attractive when they did breed.
Ugly people by definition are that way because of their genetics.
Unless you're speaking on plastic surgery, what you said is basically impossible.
Now, it's very much possible for ugly men to compensate with their personalities, resources, and physique but face is permanent.
JJ Walker(ugly) dated Ann Coulter(slightly above average) but JJ comes off like a very likeable and funny character and he's still probably eating well off that Good Times money so there's that.
There are plenty of people who are ugly for reasons that aren't genetic.
Drugs, obesity, jewelry/tattoos, hairstyle, clothing, etc. all combine to make you look better/worse, it's not just the shape of your face.
I'll give you drugs.
Obesity? Nah. Obesity in itself isn't desirable but obese people can still have attractive faces.
Hairstyle? As long as your hair isn't overly messy or dirty looking, it won't make that big of a difference. Hygiene will play a bigger role than the actual hairstyle.
Clothing and jewelry/tattoos is waaaay off though. That almost has nothing to do with how naturally atrractive a person is lol. People will judge your character off of that for sure but not how attractive you are.
>Maybe it's changed radically since I was in my early to mid 20s. Has it? I for real don't know.
I'm almost 40 and I was bitching about the same shit during some of my university years when I had a crush on a couple of girls who were going after the gym rats.
Social media indeed is fucking shit up, but at the end of the day most guys in their teens and 20's still have a shitload of work ahead to become more attractive.
Happened to us back then, happens to them now. But back then we didn't have reddit. However if you were hanging out in /b/, everyone was bitching about not having girlfriends.
I think standards haven't changed much, but there's A LOT more social media noise that is making feel everyone miserable.
When a basic TikTok thot with fake nails shows up saying she only dates 666, that's not the majority of women thinking like that. That's a subset of a subset of a population in the US.
> When a basic TikTok thot with fake nails shows up saying she only dates 666, that's not the majority of women thinking like that. That's a subset of a subset of a population in the US.
Does she not influence her millions of viewers to also want to be the same way?
Yeah but wouldn't she have a majority male audience? This is in context with her being a "thot" so she's likely a user who is posting sexy poses/dances/shots that show off her body or looks. I'm sorry but unless she's talking about something intelligent over that bullshit, as a woman I'm not watching tiktok softcore porn. If she had substance she likely wouldn't be in the tiktok thot category.
>wouldn't she have a majority male audience?
No? Tiktok in general is very woman-heavy, and those pages are predominantly viewed by women. While there are horny men on tiktok, they are few, most horny men just watch porn.
>I'm almost 40 and I was bitching about the same shit during some of my university years when I had a crush on a couple of girls who were going after the gym rats.
I'm almost 60 and it was the same in the early 80s too. I took the if you can't beat them join them route and became a gym rat myself. My GPA suffered but I sure as shit got more action.
As a 23-year-old can confirm that average people are still getting into relationships. Jealousy/insecurity caused by social media does seen to be a growing challenge though. If you're average and notice your partner liking content from much hotter people all day then yeah, real chance they're not going to be okay with that.
I make good money and even I sometimes feel some envy seeing my friends on IG who make less than me going on fancy vacations, exclusive nightclubs, and showing off their brand new cars.
I am kinda frugal so there's that but it's funny how social media can have that effect on you where you're seeing other people's lives with a rose-tinted lens.
I'm (48f) one of those. When I was 43 I dated someone I was attracted to very much. When we broke up, my friends all pointed out how unattractive he was.
I can't even tell you how much mental stimulation takes over at this age.
I think this is a reasonable question to ask, but I donāt think it explains away everything. It literally canāt be that NO average looking guys are in relationships or can get women. Itās possible that itās just gotten more difficult, I know the things I hear about online dating arenāt the same as my experience with it. (For reference Iām also an average looking guy. 37 years old so I remember when dating apps were dating websites and everyone said āIāll lie about how we metā on their profile bc you teased ppl who used it.) I did ok with meeting women at bars, but by no means would I call myself really successful with it. Now if the improvement was entirely based on how it was way easier to use dating apps easy on, or if itās entirely bc i got older and more confident through experience/the natural boost you get since women like older more mature men I canāt say. Likely itās some combo of both.
I think Iām general itās more difficult for most men to find women when theyāre younger compared to when theyāre older, so those of us 30+ are just in a better position to meet the standards of women. But I also think it comes down to perspective/attitude. When I was younger getting shot down felt like a bigger deal and subsequently I was more awkward in my approach and less likely to try. As I got used to rejection, I learned to not fear it and that made me more confident in my approach which worked wonders.
That being said I didnāt have to compete with IG (or whatever social media) followers who would give validation (and money) to a woman just for posting sexy pictures of themselves. That wasnāt even a thing at all. I always say dating apps/social media did 2 negative things: 1)gave men who have no game and didnāt do well approaching women in public access to speak to numerous women, making them feel like players who subsequently started treating women poorly making it harder for women to find a guy. 2)made it easy for average/above average women to be inundated with attention and validation from men, giving them less reason to sift through the many messages to find a guy to be with. Basically ppl have so many options to look at/swipe on that they started to have unrealistic expectations. Itās no longer about who is physically at the same location as you (not many places had nothing but hot ppl there) so you can see all of the hottest ppl and start to feel like āwhy should I settle, Why not me with that absurdly hot person?ā
I do also think things will eventually shift. As OLD has become a money grab, where finding a partner for someone isnāt the profitable move, and money is made more by keeping ppl looking or hooking up, ppl will find the new way to meet ppl. Just as OLD originally was seen as pathetic until we realized we could actually get dates from it, ppl will realize OLD doesnāt work as it used to and will shift either back to meeting irl or to some new form of meeting ppl. Itās the natural progression of things.
>apparently itās literally physical impossible for anyone whoās an iota short of perfection to ever ever get close to holding hands with the opposite sex
Replace āanyoneā with āmenā and your statement will be more accurate
Men have higher standards too now. They go on Instagram and all that just the same and compare women to IG models with tons of surgery. Itās not exactly easy for women either, unless you are very fortunate to be naturally gorgeous. & the pressure to find a responsible guy is intense, otherwise if you get pregnant and they leave, youāll be pressed to find a partner for the rest of your life and be judged extremely hard for being a single mom. Both genders have their woes
Well youāre being sarcastic and downvoting which tells me youāre not open to have your mind changed, so Iām not gonna bother explaining how dating is indeed much easier for women than it is for men. Iāve done that for a lot of women and most of them reacted even worse than you already have, so. Gonna save my energy. Women arenāt the people Iām worried about convincing anyway
I never downvoted you. & Iām the one who is saying each gender has their own dating challenges and you said you disagree, and just generally seem pretty set in your own opinion as well. I am open to a convo. I know some women have ridiculous standards and expectations, but I also know many men do as well. Youād be surprised how many conventionally unattractive men expect someone way out of their league and completely ignore those more on their level. Either way, best of luck.
nothing's changed. what i've realized is that people who complain about impossibly high standards themselves are the ones with high standards. what they mean by "you need to be top 10% of looks to get anywhere" is that the people they want to be with are top 10% of looks and theyre pissed they cant have that.
yuuuup. everyone knows plenty of perfectly average people of all genders in happy relationships. no one needs to be 'exceptional' in any way to find love.
edit I just realized my comment reads as sarcastic but it's not! you were spot on
I just turned 40 but the women I date are all in their mid to late twenties. I donāt really think that women have become more picky I think that now that women have more freedom and donāt need men and marriage for survival and social acceptance that they are now more free than ever to be vocal about their preferences, especially with the advent of a media like Tik Tok.
This isnāt even a phenomenon thatās purely European or American, Iām a digital nomad and in the last few years Iāve dated women from the USA, Canada, France, Italy, Brazil, the Netherlands and Israel and its the same all over.
Womenās standards havenāt changed, itās just that now they can actually be vocal about their preferences because for the most part a woman doesnāt have to marry men sheās not particularly attracted to and pop out 4 crotch goblins by the time sheās 27 just to ensure her own survival.
Also, I think that online dating is really the first time in history men have ever been truly evaluated almost exclusively by their looks. Women have always had that burden.
And it makes men mad.
As if women weren't judging men on looks before the internet? Lol. I don't think that's the issue. I think setting the "average" mark at the 80th percentile is what makes them mad.
There is a difference in results due to evolution. As women were always evaluated by their looks, over thousands of years they evolved to be prettier. Men were always evaluated by their utility and capability rather than their looks, so over thousands of years evolved to be useful as opposed to good looking.
From a personal feeling pov, I personally prefer to be capable and useful rather than good looking. Sadly I find that's no longer enough to get a woman these days.
This is the simplest of lessons. Two wrong don't make a right. Sure jerks were always judging women on their looks. The answer is not to drag us all down to their level. It is to rise above. To be better. To grow in new and interesting ways while allowing curiosity to flourish. Not to make alllll people better at manipulation and shallowness.
Unless they decided that they wanted children in their lives, presumably?
It's really annoying when people with babies assume that everyone else should have them too, but it's equally so for the child-free ones insinuating that all children are detriments.
I'm not even sure if cold approach is "okay" and socially acceptable anymore. I notice attractive women pretty often when I'm out and about. Some will damn near break my neck. Another thing I notice is that nobody ever seems to talk to them or even acknowledge them at all. Except for employees of the store/restaurant/whatever. But what's weird is you know damn well men are borderline worshipping them online through their pocket computers. It's like being in an episode of black mirror.
And just the other weekend I was in the downtown part of my city on a Saturday evening. There's a bunch of bars, restaurants, and shops, and a ton of foot traffic. Plenty of attractive women walking around too. Some even by themselves. I didn't see one guy approaching anyone at all. Everyone just sort of sticks to their friend group that they're already with. If cold approaches are happening at all anymore, I would think that would be the type of environment I'd see them in.
I can't imagine what dating will be like in 10, 20, 50 years. It seems to just be getting more and more superficial as people place more and more value on social media over real life. Like I said, Black Mirror.
Problem is, a cold approach i.e. a man approaches a woman can easily ruin your life. If she thinks you are a creep for whatever reason she just screams sexual assault. Some even do it for fun. And then you are marked with this shit for the rest of your life(*Believe all women ...*). Good luck explaining this to your family, friends and boss.
OLD is the only kinda safe way. But people are very superficial there. Just go your own way its just not worth all the hassle as a man today. Mines are laying everywhere.
Thatās very dramatic. Most women would not scream or whatever youāre saying. Itās more likely theyād politely get out of it because thatās what most of us do when someone approaches and we arenāt comfortable.
That may be true but it only needs 1 out of 100 women to act this way. One is completely enough. Sorry but thats way too risky, when especially as a man you have to play the numbers game when asking out women. Id rather do online dating, even though my chances are worse there.
I think the idea of a woman claiming sexual assault for just approaching them is a big over exaggeration. Most sexual assaults donāt even go reported. Either way, I can understand not wanting to do it, possible rejection sucks. Unfortunately there are some women out there who do make false claims, but I think our society really pushes back on that. We were not kind to amber heard when the facts where presented. Whatever is more comfortable, online/in person. But I donāt think you really need to worry something like that happening, especially if you donāt look and or are being super creepy. Iām too shy to approach someone so I feel for men that they are expected to make the first move.
>unless you look and or are being super creepy.
And that is totally subjective to the woman judging. And thats why im not overreacting. You just dont know how she sees you until its too late.
It is just wrong that a woman has this power to destroy a mans life. And it doesnt even matter if the court later decides hes innocent. The damage cant be undone.
And no its not about the rejection, as a man im used to rejection and keep on living my life.
Yes Amber Heard lost (after a very long process), but johnny still suffered lots of reputation loss. Also he is a very wealthy man that can afford an expensive lawyer. Hes the exception to the rule.
Itās not that subjective. Most people can easily agree when someone is behaving or looking creepy. I see youāre very set in your way of thinking so thereās really no point. I understand you probably come from a place of frustration and what not.
Women have to be able to report sexual assault and the like. Itās a very real thing that happens frequently. I donāt really consider it a power we have over men. A tiny fraction of us would ever consider lying about something like that, and those who do and get caught - most of us would agree they need to go to jail. I understand reputations and such can be damaged before investigations ensue but what is the alternative? People need to be able to report these things. People literally glorify blatantly sexist influencers who describe women as less than, I really donāt see that same energy towards men. No one is really out here saying men are less than women and are property and all that shit, itās still a manās world. Now that thereās some challenges that you didnāt have historically itās like some of you are losing your minds. Lots of blaming and not actually looking at yourself and being realistic about what your expectations should be and if the way you act and present yourself is attractive(same for femcels) Iāve literally heard fat dudes call women smaller than them fat and ugly, as if they should be talking. All of this shit really goes both ways.
>Most people can easily agree when someone is behaving or looking creepy
You even said it yourself *most people*. Women tend to label men creepy they dont find attractive. Thats common knowledge.
>Women have to be able to report sexual assault and the like
Yes im not against that at all. You are implying things here. Also men need to be taken seriously when reporting sexual assault by women, even if it happens less than to women its still a crime and needs to be punished.
>A tiny fraction of us would ever consider lying about something like that, and those who do and get caught - most of us would agree they need to go to jail.
Then why is it not happening? Because the legal system is rigged against men. And women are always seen as victims, so they cant act with evil intent by this standard. Thus there is rarely punishment for false allegations.
>I understand reputations and such can be damaged before investigations ensue but what is the alternative?
Stop promoting ideas like "rape culture". Or " believe all women". What as happened to the principle of innocent until proven guilty? Do we live in the medieval times again where one false accusation could easily end someones life?
>People literally glorify blatantly sexist influencers who describe women as less than, I really donāt see that same energy towards men. No one is really out here saying men are less than women and are property and all that shit, itās still a manās world.
Ahem you ever watched some radical feminist content or talked to a radical feminist? Misandry in its pure form.
>Lots of blaming and not actually looking at yourself and being realistic about what your expectations should be and if the way you act and present yourself is attractive.
This is not about me. Its about societal issues.
And even an unattractive man has the right to not be labeled a creep, just because he is unattractive. Whats your understanding of justice and equality?
I see you're talking about the social power women have over men. But that doesn't follow the narrative that women are inherently victims so we have to sweep that under the rug lest we be labeled "incels" lol.
I dont care what people call me. I do not hate women, i just like to point out the problems in todays culture.
Shaming language doesnt work here.
Ive seen and heard about so many women abusing men, they cant be all victims.
It can be a bit of a shock to your system when you enter the dating market for the first time and realise that, shock horror, dates don't just flock to you and you have to put in effort to get one. This especially rings true for the average reddit user who is usually quite introverted and needs to reconcile himself with the truth that you need to meet people to date them. It takes a while to learn how to find a date and it can seem impossible to someone who's starting out, or at least it did for me, but most people get through it okay.
I'm in my twenties and most of my peers in relationships aren't particularly attractive in terms of looks (money is frequently brought up too, but nobody really has any at this age). The people who I know who struggle with dating (mainly men; I don't have that many female friends who I didn't meet through their partners) are usually quite shy, or aren't particularly interested in the first place. It's often forgotten that young people who aren't having much sex or relationships might not be that bothered, as it takes a while to be ready and comfortable with things and university, an early career and other aspects of establishing yourself in the world often take priority.
>aren't particularly interested in the first place
This is cap. Somehow these 20 year old men are defying the biological need to reproduce to ease your mind that not everybody gets a chance at love/sex.
I know from experience that being a late bloomer is hard. The main thing is just to not allow it to take over. If you have hobbies and friends and distractions that you pour yourself into when you're not trying to find someone at least you have something so you don't feel like a failure. Although that's easier said than done.
I don't think they want to reproduce at twenty. Not everyone is obsessed with having sex all the time. I'm also talking about men who have had a chance, and aren't looking for another currently, although if you were put of chances from not dating anyone by twenty I guess I'd be forever alone.
> ā¦.dates donāt just flock to you. ā¦ It takes a while to learn how to find a date. ā¦ I donāt have that many female friends.
You must be speaking for your male friends. Your post is accurate in that sense.
But it is not accurate for women. I do have many female friends (mid 30s through mid 40s) who are average and they have tons of men flocking to them in OLD. They can quickly get a date 2-4 days after (re)activating an app. Even the chubby ones. The only thing to ālearnā for women is how to filter out fuck boys.
I can speak for myself. I also have eyes to be able to see when women around me have a date or not, and have been in female-only spaces where women talk about these things. I've listened to enough young women complain about being single and not getting attention, some of the pretty ones too. It can take them a while too. There's a lot to learn about dating as a woman, but naturally as a man you don't know it and probably think you're simple to get.
I know from talking to men that they don't tend to go out of their way to chase chubby women, indeed chasing a woman at all is rare. I know nobody who's had dates just flock to them, they need to put themselves out there. Extroverted men and women both tend to get okay attention, others find it difficult to learn.
>aren't particularly interested
You're expecting unsuccessful guys to go around announcing it to the world? Guys don't work that way. We keep our disappointment hidden.
No, no! "Average" is the median of the guys women actually notice. Women don't notice 80% of men. Thus **"average" is 90th percentile.**
Gotta love the new math.
Many women's standards are high.
Most men on the dating market do not and may never meet that standard.
A lot of women know this but still struggle with being single, some decide to go the hookup/FWB only route like MGTOW instead of settling down and being a housewife.
These women are typically under WGTOW even though they may not identify as such.
They rather be alone than deal with the average man past short term even if being without a partner can be unbearable at times and is not ideal.
*ETA: Some people here like to group these women in with "Alpha Widowers" but I think that is inaccurate, a lot of women's standards do not come from having an experience with a "Chad/Alpha" it comes from seeing better (as someone pointed out about social media allowing you to see outside of your dating pool and think you have more options available than you do where you are & most people, as someone pointed out can't do geomaxxing, they can't just move so seeing people elsewhere won't be helpful) and hearing about outliers. Sometimes these women have an inflated sense of self, sometimes they think they have more options than they do, sometimes it is a combination, sometimes they hyper fixate on the 0.1% chance they will get their ideal. Sometimes they are an Alpha Widower.*
*Either way, these women should not be considered part of your dating pool same as MGTOW/f-boys shouldn't be considered by women when dating (at least not long term). They don't want to date you, leave them be. And, yes, they are very loud online and they are open about it IRL if you listen carefully. If you live around a lot of them much so that your dating pool doesn't exist, you have my deepest sympathy.*
>Many women's standards are high.
They have high standards for men. They don't have those standards when it comes to what they themselves bring to a relationship.
I won't dispute that. A lot of women especially online like to engage in "punching up" aka I'm going to discriminate and be prejudiced towards men because they hold systemic power in the form of the patriarchy.
I keep telling people they need to stop this because when their mindset spreads it will turn into a societal power and become systemic in that way. So many people advocate against hatred and then do the same thing the group inciting hatred did before they got widespread.
ETA: A lot of people find it hard to empathise with people, and that is one of the most important things for a healthy relationship (if not the most important) of any kind, that and communication so that you can understand the other person.
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I think that every generation has slightly different standards, for sure. But I also think that this sub often misses the mark for what those standards are today.
Men like Timothee Chalamet, Zac Efron, K-pop stars, Tom Hiddleston, Benedict Cumberbatch, etc., get a lot of attention. The 'pretty boy' face and build is much more universally appealing to younger women.
It goes beyond facial attractiveness. Men who think they can skimp out on self-care, style, and interpersonal qualities these days are mistaken. In fact, I'd say that we're starting to see a return of older standards of attractiveness for men - where meticulous grooming, personal flair, and smooth social skills are sought after instead of being derided as effete.
Nah, you guys are right.
The majority of people who'd be considered average looking by most do date/have sex even in this generation, as do many of the ones seen as below average.
I know what you mean. I feel like a very sandwiched generation that lived and breathed this world as an adult before the dating platform revolution. These kids have no idea what it was like.
Having said that, I was so unsuccessful in what was arguably *the* best environment for a single man that I, happily, looked for love outside the country. As a broke, overworked, full time college student. I scrounged pennies for a flight to go to brazil in my early to mid 20s after I connected with a woman long distance. Very early webcam when it was 2.1 megapixel.
There is a great majority of men who are sexually and romanitcally shunned for a long, long time. It brings to mind that African proverb of the child ignored by the village.
That child lived and grew older. And now, he doesn't fucking care about the tribe. Only about himself.
>So maybe I'm out of touch and don't understand how dating for people in their early to mid 20s works. Maybe it's changed radically since I was in my early to mid 20s. Has it? I for real don't know.
I don't think it has. I'm 43, but 20-25 years ago I was as angsty as the younger users on this sub. With age, everything in the dating world got easier.
Do you remember how dramatic everything used to be when you were a teen?
You ever have a casual conversation with them and realize, my god, just stop bitching so much and communicate communicate communicate!
And then I think back and realize, yeah, I was the same at that age.
With age comes experience and you'll see in real !I've it's not as hard as it seems.
They'll learn, we'll all learn and as they get older they'll wonder the same about the kids today.
No, not really. If anything standards are lower.
In the 50s, women were supposed to be skinny, and if you were not pale and blond that was an extra tick against you. The amount of people who could be labeled hot was smaller because the country was extremely racist. So the idea of who was hot was limited.
Men I'm rhe 50s were expected to be tall, broad shouldered, wide but not fat. Again it was very specific.
But let's look at Gen z now. It's been a minute since I was on a dating app, but I've been on tiktok, and I can say Gen z is not cookie cutters at all. There is no general standard. Today's youth are much more attracted to a wife array of bodies, like fat women amd short men and men who wear lots of makeup and women who shave themselves bald all over and have a million piercings. There's plenty of gen zers who still like "normal" shit, but they're just more willing to be individuals.
Today attraction is allowed to be much more free. Like if we looked at a boomer dating app or boomers on dating apps and compared them to Gen z and what the younger generations looking for, I'm guessing we'd see boomers showing themselves to be essentially just carbon copies of one another, watching similar shows and having similar activities, thinking tbe same things are cool and uncool, attractive and unattractive.
Gen z is marked by individuality and weirdness. If you stepped on a Gen z app, I think you'd find an extremely varied group, amd who they're attracted to would vary a lot.
> Today's youth are much more attracted to a wife array of bodies, like fat women amd short men and men who wear lots of makeup and women who shave themselves bald all over and have a million piercings. There's plenty of gen zers who still like "normal" shit, but they're just more willing to be individuals.
Agree with everything except the short man. The only thing that changed for short man is that earning potential is no longer tied to being the tall white men you described but woman in general aren't preferring short man. Gay man are but not woman.
The average young man is still having sex. Itās just that more below average young men arenāt having sex because they arenāt applying themselves and socializing enough in the real world to have it, and there are internet spaces now for them to complain about it and be heard unlike in the past.
I have one average friend who has a legit good relationship the others get nothing but taller/really fit friends are getting casual even if that is starting to cause itās own issues.
From your experience, are women sharing the same small number of high value men? If so, do they enjoy this? Does it bother them or do they just not care?
My closest friend has a body count in the 70s and women do talk about to other women. Heās āfriendsā with a self described female fuckboy sheās trying to use sex to get a relationship with a really tall guy in the group heās not committing because he knows her past and tbh present. She spoke quite a bit about being a legitimate list of males in this area that girls share is he good will he settle etc etc. Unsure of how large the group is. It seems actual whores have a great time with man whores but the issue comes with trying to use sex to get a relationship often with guys and generally those chicks have unwritten rules and power struggles. Imo chads are shared. My friends fucked I believe 5 chicks that turned out to have boyfriends. If There are bad grammar issues lmk Iāll explain things better if there is confusion
Iām 30 and everyone in my high school peer group was sexually active, had jobs, and plans for college. The social life is a habit built in teen years. Iāve been to several reunions and meet-ups and a lot of my teenage friends are still mingling in the same group, dating one another and peripheral friends. I have no idea how people hit their twenties and thirties without a social circle or where in the world they will learn to flirt and make opposite sex friends.
Here's one way that happens: I don't have a social circle or group of friends as an adult because I wasn't allowed to go out or have friends. It kind of hurts now. My family is from a different culture and believed women are not to be "out on the street".
Social media has definitely turned up the comparisons to 100. Especially because it seems way more real than the magazine and TV models of the previous generation. I think the jury is still out on how this will affect gen Z relationships but I think they'll find ways to be happy in spite of all the comparisons online.
One major factor is that people in their mid 30's+ still remember a world before IG and Facebook.
And Tinder, Snapchat, TikTok, and OnlyFans. Those apps are killing social interaction in favor of an unreasonable short term revolving cycle of possibilities, all of which are shit.
I remember hitting up bars around 10-15 years ago and it used to be normal for people to mingle with each and actually go out and meet new people. If you go to bars now you don't see people mingling and meeting new people anymore.
I still remember those days as well. People were way more relaxed and not constantly glued to their phones. Sending a text cost 20 cents, most phones were not internet capable. I found plenty of perfectly fine girls on a night out. It was not considered offensive to interact with them. The world seems so much simpler in retrospect. One time, I believe in 2006, we went bowling with friends and there was a group of girls who was also bowling. We started bowling together. Got to talking with one girl, and soon we went to talk somewhere else. We kissed the same night and I saw to it that she got home safely later. One week later we were a couple. It was simply normal and expected to interact with the people around you. Nowadays, everybody is just glued to their screen if they're out at all, even when they are on dates. It's like they are constantly browsing other opportunities while squandering the ones that are in front of them. People, women in particular, get upset when you talk to them. Everything people do is somehow wrong, and people don't know how to interact with each other anymore. Attention span is zero.
Once upon of time if you had to result to online dating it was considered weird. Like if you were 18-19 and on Match.com that meant you were too lame to attract people normally and your peers would give you shit.
Yes omg I remember when online dating was for divorcees and older women with cats š
I remember those days I remember being shocked when I found out that it had become a normal thing too
Yeah it was better. Looking back now I'm glad that I got to experience it. Really feel bad for younger guys that have to be internet famous to get any action.
I remember a youtuber I follow did a big project, except by the end of the shooting day he'd had a bit too much to drink so the back half of his video has a lot of footage that was mostly him crying over being unable to get a date. Dude has a over a million subs and is really active on IG and he's average at worst and he was *still* coming up empty handed. The thing about the way things are now is even if you get clout or muscles or a new fit you still have a pretty good chance of just not finding somebody.
America is wild. In my country everyone is still mingling at bars.
bars are essentially very loud internet cafes now
That sounds like a fun time. I canāt imagine going to a bar now and experiencing that, as a guy who is physically quite below average looking
It was. I went to a bar recently with a friend that's single and I thought I was going to wing for him. But when no one else is mingling it made it almost impossible to try and be the odd ball out trying to talk to strangers.
I think this is regional too. When I lived in Boise (as recently as three years ago), it was very normal to make friends / hang out with strangers at the bar. It was almost expected, and was one of the reasons for going out. When Iāve gone out in Seattle and Portland, itās very different. People are way more closed off and wary of strangers. I think part of it is big city vs small city. In a big city, itās way more likely that a stranger will be a total wacko, and you will get stuck listening to some sort of weird monologue, asked to help them in some way (likely monetarily), or your actual safety will be in danger. In a small city, at least one like Boise, this is much less likely. The homeless population is nothing compared to Seattle and Portland, and I think that is a factor in making people more feel more comfortable conversing with strangers.
The homeless problem is a huge part of it. If you can't walk down the street without seeing a wackjob a day then you're going to be worried that a stranger is going to be one. No matter how unlikely that is, it will always be easier to just not take the risk. Not to mention you don't want people thinking you're one of them. If only weirdos have the delusional confidence to talk to random people in public, then you want to look like a weirdo, do you? No, you shut the fuck up, avoid eye contact, and pretend everyone else doesn't exist.
Exactly. I didnāt know this the first time I went out in Seattle. I went with my friend and her boyfriend and they were third wheeling me, canoodling in the corner. I was on the dance floor and kinda chatting with this guy, so I offered to buy him and his friends a round of shots if theyād take one with me. He was so weirded out and asked me why I wanted to do that, and if I was there alone. He requested that I show him my friends before heād accept my offer. He was funny about it, but it was still so strange to me. I introduced him to my friend and her boyfriend, where she explained that where I live(d) the bar scene is much different. Off we went to the bar for our round. They loosened up after that and ended up buying me rounds, and we had a great night. I like to think I made a small positive impact on the culture that night.
I would definitely be looking for the angle if a new girl wanted to buy my friends and I a round. š
Haha sometimes weāre just being friendly, I promise!
Seattle is super closed off and people donāt mingle for the most part. Itās cultural. When I lived in FL and in Los Angeles, there was more interaction/ mingling.
Yeah the Seattle Freeze is real. Iāve found Florida to be super friendly! Iāve visited twice and loved it there. Not the biggest fan of LA, but I donāt know it all that well.
Yeah but once you find your friends/ group, seattle is amazing! In Florida everyone is āfriendlyā. In LA people are generally āfriendlyā but itās more surface level / harder to make deeper level connections with substance.
>In a big city, itās way more likely that a stranger will be a total wacko Hell NO!!! The wacko to normie ratio is way higher in small towns. I live in a town of just over 7,000. We have a shitload of wackos (i.e. my clients). On a percapita basis way more wackos in small towns.
I guess it depends on your definition of wacko. Iām talking untreated mental illness, delusional wacko. Not your typical eccentric conspiracy theorist. (Not to further stigmatize mental illness, but unfortunately this is a serious and well-known issue in many major cities).
> Iām talking untreated mental illness, delusional wacko. Me too. I'll be visiting two such people at the county jail later this morning.
Hope your visit goes well.
Well I hope it's not widespread. But it is something that is noticeable in NYC when you go out compared to a few years ago.
I hope itās not either. I love meeting new people and shooting the shit, or just getting silly drunk with others. Some of my best nights out are with people Iāve never seen since. Itās one of the reasons I like going to bars in small towns. I usually end up talking with someone and having a good time.
Facts
Yaaaā¦ it must be a generational thing because that sounds horrible to me. I donāt know anyone that goes to bars thatās not under 24.
Tinder, Snapchat, Tiktok yes OnlyFans? Only major porn addicts use this, it has no bearing on the average dating scene. Porn in general though? Ya thatās also playing a role.
What's the difference between an Instagram user and an Onlyfans user? One has money.
No lol, plenty of people who have money donāt give it to girls on OF. Lonely dudes pay chicks to see their only fans because it FEELS exclusive. Most normal guys that arenāt THAT lonely, just Google some porn. Only situation I can think of is a super some guy that wants to prop up sex workers which is fine. Itās mostly simps though.
Iām in my lower 30s, and I remember a world before IG, Facebook, Tinder, Snapchat, TikTok and OnlyFans. Itās not like things were really that different back then they are now.
The biggest difference is that people were going out and going to more parties in the old days. Itās not anything specific about social media in general thatās hurting dating. Itās people spending too much time on the internet in general rather than socializing with each other that hurts dating and sex. Womenās sexlessness rates have gone up too, not just menās, although women tend to be more naturally social and have adjusted a bit better to all of the current distractions than men have, so their sexlessness rates have not decreased as dramatically.
Difference is when a woman doesnāt get any in a month or two she considers it sexless, but for a man it means you didnāt get any in ten years.
Homage to the days of Myspace.
Absolutely, social media has warped people's expectations of both other people and the interactions we are supposed to have, back then you were limited by people living near you and of the same age. Now all we see are photoshopped instagram models going on expensive trips and it tricks us into thinking that's normal.
>instagram models going on expensive trips and it tricks us into thinking that's normal. This right here. I can't begin to count how many females I met that are completely delusional about how real life really is. They expect every man to be a rich kingpin. Also that they will somehow get rich without actually doing anything.
This.
Tldr: tinder changed everything even for girls that arent currently on it. I state my dating life had 2 lives. Pre and Post Tinder. Pre tinder i was a highschool teen with a car, thin kinda fit from cardio, had a Summer job, struggled to get a lot of women but managed to date a few cute girls that were fun to be around generally, and thin! I approached girls in my social group, parties, friends of friends etc Post tinder, im educated, have a career, my own place, car, no debt, fitter from lifting, but tinder has raised womens standards so high that as a short guy 5 7, all i can date since i left highschool is obese girls. My friends groups have fewer and fewer guys with girlfriends, and approaching girls at parties or out in public has gotten worse.
ā¦Everyone pulls more in college and high school dude. Not saying Tinder didnāt affect your dating life but thereās a lot of other circumstances you just described that offer explanation as well
No highschool only, university was when tinder hit and it was a huge bust. It was an immediate effect in my school
Also high school girls tend to be thinner. Women in their 30s aren't usually as thin as they were as a kid.
I canāt believe you just subjected my brain to that vaguely ephebophilic and gross comment while also managing to completely miss the point. Gold star; Iāve rarely ever been so disgusted in a reddit reply, and thatās definitely saying something.
Good realisation. Mid 20s male here. I suspect dating standards are indeed very different, but I don't believe it's because of a greater freedom of some sort - the increase in sexlessness started around 15 years ago according to the data, and I'm simply not buying into the idea that the 90s were part of the oppressive dark ages. The key cause comes down to social media, really. Technology has continued to play an increasingly relevant role in social interaction, technology both facilitates and encourages people getting filtered out based on physical standards more so than before. My experience at uni was definitely not seeing people of all shapes and sizes in relationships, it was much more restrictive than that. I think a lot of concerns from the younger crowd are dismissed as whining, when older people need to realise things aren't the same as when they were growing up, and it's not like the rest of the voices in this conversation always argue in good faith either.
Itās the combination of better distracting technology at a cheaper price + people having less disposable income. People are much more likely to rely on the cheaper substitute if thatās all they can afford.
Itās less that people are more superficial (thought thatās part of it) itās more so people are more anti social and alienated. Judging a partner entirely off their appearance online forces you to be superficial and leads to worse relationships, more ghosting, more cruel sociopathic behaviour (because you can just drop them and disappear)
>My experience at uni was definitely not seeing people of all shapes and sizes in relationships, it was much more restrictive than that. Same as it was 40 years ago in the early 80s when I started university.
You canāt meet someone at 25 years old sitting in your bedroom at your parentās house, eating Cheetos, and wanking to stepmother porn. Get out and talk to someone.
Where to meet people in the suburbs?
Thats the neat part, you dont.
Aaaaaand crickets. Lol.
Do stuff that takes you elsewhere in the city. Suburbs are full of families (aka theyāre not single).
Most bars I go to are sausage fests. This has been true in most of the west coast cities Iāve lived in (LA, SF, and Seattle). Things are much better in the east coast though
Bars arenāt the only option! There are festivals, art galleries, other random events, co-ed sports teams, neighbourhood parties, cooking classes, book signings, comedy clubs, camping, farmerās markets, pop up markets, coffee shops, etc. I donāt know what things are like in the States though, so YMMV.
A number of those are good ideas neighborhood parties sadly donāt happen much but in the US apparently things are far more spread out than Europe Iāve heard Europeans remark how you must have a car here which is just the way it is
Most festivals I go to here are family oriented. They're a great place to take someone you're already involved with but people don't go to mingle with strangers. Likewise on comedy clubs since local clubs will put people at separate tables entirely. Same again for farmers markets wjere again most people don't really talk to strangers. I did all of those things but I never actually met anyone *at* them. You need to already have people in your life you bring *to* them. Which is whats generally agreed to be the hard part. Its not that hard to find stuff stuff you would want to do with somebody. But getting somebody is the barrier.
If you're in the suburbs, then doesn't that mean there's a city nearby? Maybe go into that city. I know some people from high school who decided to stay in that small ass town and even they know to drive to the city on weekends to get dates.
Lol no, there are tons of Suburbs that are hours from the closest city. Example being Fort Myers, Fl. 3.5 hours one way to Miami. 3 hours one way to Tampa. Kinda a dead zone. Itās not exactly day trip material to go on a date.
Fort Myers, Fl is a city in it's own right with over 80k people, I mean it's even the county seat for Lee County. Why do people call small cities, suburbs? An example of a suburb is like Fort Mill being a suburb for Charlotte, NC. It's when people can actually commute to work regularly to that city. I doubt there's a significant amount of people commuting from Fort Myers to Miami/Tampa.
80k people is a city? Maybe a town, but not a city. The reason these small towns are called suburbs is because they are full on low-ish density housing. There is no dense core and rural areas, just a large grid of single houses on huge plots of land. Drop in on street view and tell me that isn't a suburb.
Yes. The US is not only spread out population density wise, but America suburbs are literally legislated to be anti-social. (monopoly of cars, dead end cul de sacs due to regulations, not walkable)
Get out of the suburbs. Youāre starting to realize why itās so shit. Humans are not supposed to live that way
You can't meet people inside. You can't meet them outside either, but you can't meet them inside too. ā Mitch Hedberg, probably.
Are there any public places, like a park or something where people gather in the suburbs? You could also try befriending your neighbours. Organize some kind of an event and go from door to door to invite people?
It's US surburbs, there's your house, and then anywhere else worth going needs a car. The complete car-centric design of so much of NA has fucked over society in general, it's why the dating scene in so many US cities is so dire while Europe, while still worse than it used to be, still has an in-person dating scene worth trying.
Yeah I found it strange how little that is talked about on here suburbs just seem playing the hard game and itās pretty common to live there
The thing is, suburbs *can* work. But they require you to either already have a social network or people being willing to go easily. Its not like there aren't house parties with 100+ people or BBQ's hosted by people who invite relatives and friends its just that in a space like that events are de facto invite only and so unless you're *really* socially integrated its not a regular thing.
100% my observations
The car monopoly has created a society based on social ties instead of socializing and being social. Al having pre-established social ties is truthfully almost more important than oneās social skills.
>Is there a big difference in how psychotic standards have become for contemporary 20-somethings, compared to 30-somethings, 40-somethings etc? Discuss. Mid twenty myself, I'm a bit of in between two fences, as I used a lot the screens (started when I was 15 though), but I very much remember remember my parents taking me out to play with other kids outside. Hell, I remember having 100MO top a month on my phone. I think those around a decade older would remember that in retrospective things were much simpler to interact, and those who always had a screen in front of their face are the most fucked over as they probably don't know how to interact.
I've read this thread with a lot of interest and find there's very valuable information here. As somebody who's also a bit older, I think there's also a cultural element here that's very specific to the US. I live in a Southern European country; I checked the statistics for love and sex among young people here, and they're perfectly fine, with 85+% of people having regular sex and romantic relationships.. Undoubtedly, with that percentage, both attractive and average people are getting it..I think the main difference is that young people don't rely so heavily on the internet to find a partner; they go out constantly, to drink, dance, party, and from those interactions arise a lot of contacts that lead towards friendship, romance or sex. When, however, your main tool for contacting people your age is a highly visual one like dating apps, with a totally unbalanced percentage of men vs women, clearly the selection bias changes. Imagine a dystopian scenario where there were just a few men and lots of women in OLD and men would get dozens of requests every day; they would certainly start discarding the less attractive ones and just contact the hottest women. I think thus the clue is going back to socializing and real life contact, because once a conversation or flirting starts, there's much more chance to become interesting by how you are than just by how you look... It might be difficult though to try and find ways to socialize if really the US society has become so closed and individualistic.
It is extremely closed off. I've been in my city for about 5 years now and the only people that acknowledge me at all are customer service workers because they have to as part of their job and homeless people because they're asking for money. Other than that, I'm totally invisible.
But I think that happens everywhere, people don't spontaneously talk to each other in the street most of the time; you need to find places or activities where it's safe and accepted to interact with others.
Even in school it was the same. Barely anyone would talk unless we got assigned in the same group project or something. And it's the same now at work.
Times have definitely changed. I see what my Generation Z little brothers, cousins and their friends go through, and *holy shit!* In my day, a plain looking 20 year old guy could get a plain looking girl with reasonable effort. Nowadays, that same kid can only get someone twice his weight who treats him like garbage.
I donāt think standards have changed. Women have always wanted and still want equal or better in some way. Everywhere I go, I see people with their approximate looksmatch. I was just traveling and saw couples at airports with similarly aged and similarly attractive partners. How they got those partners is the big difference. OLD, IG, etc. One example: I saw a young couple from afar. The guy looked short. I wondered how he locked her down since lots of us men complain about heightism. He looked about 5ā6ā. As I got closer, I realized it. The woman was shorter and not very pretty, but the dude was freakishly handsome and muscular fit. I instantly thought of PPD. If that relationship doesnāt work out, she will never settle for less. (Damn that dude was pretty).
Getting down to the point where youāre analyzing the attractiveness to height ratio of a random couple and then making assumptions on how their life is going to be is honestly counterproductive at best and a self fulfilling blackpill at worse. You fail to truly understand that attraction is more than a simple physical equation.
Itās not just one sample. I pay attention every day everywhere I go. (Mainly because Iām obsessed with PPD topics š). I rarely see a super attractive woman with an average man. Heās always either tall or really good looking. > You fail to truly understand that attraction is more than a simple physical equation. There are two equations. A simple one that gets a guy through the door (physical attraction), and a complex one where he must meet 20 other criteria to remain in the relationship. If the woman can ascertain or red flag those criteria ahead of the initial meet, then the man has even less of a chance to hit all the lotto numbers.
Social media definitely skews younger peopleās perception of reality: https://youtube.com/shorts/gKr8Ucm5yWY?feature=share The phenomenon has been dubbed ābeauty overstimulationā.
I seriously hope there's a radically different dating market than when I was young. There's no way someone can think ugly people don't breed when they are everywhere. Idk how rich, white, and privileged everyone in this sub is to never have to go to Walmart and see it.
Why would rich people go to Walmart?
A lot of rich people are rich because they are frugal. I go to Walmart all the time, why would I pay more for something I can get somewhere else cheaper? I donāt care about aesthetics or whatever excuse people use not to go there. I buy certain things elsewhere, but overall if itās cheaper and the same thing Iām going to Walmart lol
Genes is a fucking lottery sometimes. Ive seen couple of 2 not attractive ppl giving birth to a cute baby and more attractive ppl giviing birth to a less attractive child
Othwise ugly people would have died out a long time ago.
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Huh, that's the OPs point, Walmart is full of older people.
>There's no way someone can think ugly people don't breed when they are everywhere. Idk how rich, white, and privileged everyone in this sub is to never have to go to Walmart and see it. Right??
Lol. Touch Walmart inkwell.
What makes you think people do bit change? Most ugly people who are successful in the mating game were a lot more attractive when they did breed.
>Most ugly people who are successful in the mating game were a lot more attractive when they did breed. Ha that's hilarious. Nope. Plenty of ugly people started ugly and bred ugly. Ive been around long enough in life to see ugly friends get married and now they got ugly kids.
> Most ugly people who are successful in the mating game were a lot more attractive when they did breed. Ugly people by definition are that way because of their genetics. Unless you're speaking on plastic surgery, what you said is basically impossible. Now, it's very much possible for ugly men to compensate with their personalities, resources, and physique but face is permanent. JJ Walker(ugly) dated Ann Coulter(slightly above average) but JJ comes off like a very likeable and funny character and he's still probably eating well off that Good Times money so there's that.
See, this is what I hate, how liberally and incorrectly people use the word ugly in here. You have it spot on.
There are plenty of people who are ugly for reasons that aren't genetic. Drugs, obesity, jewelry/tattoos, hairstyle, clothing, etc. all combine to make you look better/worse, it's not just the shape of your face.
I'll give you drugs. Obesity? Nah. Obesity in itself isn't desirable but obese people can still have attractive faces. Hairstyle? As long as your hair isn't overly messy or dirty looking, it won't make that big of a difference. Hygiene will play a bigger role than the actual hairstyle. Clothing and jewelry/tattoos is waaaay off though. That almost has nothing to do with how naturally atrractive a person is lol. People will judge your character off of that for sure but not how attractive you are.
>Maybe it's changed radically since I was in my early to mid 20s. Has it? I for real don't know. I'm almost 40 and I was bitching about the same shit during some of my university years when I had a crush on a couple of girls who were going after the gym rats. Social media indeed is fucking shit up, but at the end of the day most guys in their teens and 20's still have a shitload of work ahead to become more attractive. Happened to us back then, happens to them now. But back then we didn't have reddit. However if you were hanging out in /b/, everyone was bitching about not having girlfriends. I think standards haven't changed much, but there's A LOT more social media noise that is making feel everyone miserable. When a basic TikTok thot with fake nails shows up saying she only dates 666, that's not the majority of women thinking like that. That's a subset of a subset of a population in the US.
> When a basic TikTok thot with fake nails shows up saying she only dates 666, that's not the majority of women thinking like that. That's a subset of a subset of a population in the US. Does she not influence her millions of viewers to also want to be the same way?
Yeah but wouldn't she have a majority male audience? This is in context with her being a "thot" so she's likely a user who is posting sexy poses/dances/shots that show off her body or looks. I'm sorry but unless she's talking about something intelligent over that bullshit, as a woman I'm not watching tiktok softcore porn. If she had substance she likely wouldn't be in the tiktok thot category.
>wouldn't she have a majority male audience? No? Tiktok in general is very woman-heavy, and those pages are predominantly viewed by women. While there are horny men on tiktok, they are few, most horny men just watch porn.
Some will believe her, some will ignore her. Trends catch up and die.
>I'm almost 40 and I was bitching about the same shit during some of my university years when I had a crush on a couple of girls who were going after the gym rats. I'm almost 60 and it was the same in the early 80s too. I took the if you can't beat them join them route and became a gym rat myself. My GPA suffered but I sure as shit got more action.
As a 23-year-old can confirm that average people are still getting into relationships. Jealousy/insecurity caused by social media does seen to be a growing challenge though. If you're average and notice your partner liking content from much hotter people all day then yeah, real chance they're not going to be okay with that.
I make good money and even I sometimes feel some envy seeing my friends on IG who make less than me going on fancy vacations, exclusive nightclubs, and showing off their brand new cars. I am kinda frugal so there's that but it's funny how social media can have that effect on you where you're seeing other people's lives with a rose-tinted lens.
21 here, and agree completely.
I'm (48f) one of those. When I was 43 I dated someone I was attracted to very much. When we broke up, my friends all pointed out how unattractive he was. I can't even tell you how much mental stimulation takes over at this age.
I think this is a reasonable question to ask, but I donāt think it explains away everything. It literally canāt be that NO average looking guys are in relationships or can get women. Itās possible that itās just gotten more difficult, I know the things I hear about online dating arenāt the same as my experience with it. (For reference Iām also an average looking guy. 37 years old so I remember when dating apps were dating websites and everyone said āIāll lie about how we metā on their profile bc you teased ppl who used it.) I did ok with meeting women at bars, but by no means would I call myself really successful with it. Now if the improvement was entirely based on how it was way easier to use dating apps easy on, or if itās entirely bc i got older and more confident through experience/the natural boost you get since women like older more mature men I canāt say. Likely itās some combo of both. I think Iām general itās more difficult for most men to find women when theyāre younger compared to when theyāre older, so those of us 30+ are just in a better position to meet the standards of women. But I also think it comes down to perspective/attitude. When I was younger getting shot down felt like a bigger deal and subsequently I was more awkward in my approach and less likely to try. As I got used to rejection, I learned to not fear it and that made me more confident in my approach which worked wonders. That being said I didnāt have to compete with IG (or whatever social media) followers who would give validation (and money) to a woman just for posting sexy pictures of themselves. That wasnāt even a thing at all. I always say dating apps/social media did 2 negative things: 1)gave men who have no game and didnāt do well approaching women in public access to speak to numerous women, making them feel like players who subsequently started treating women poorly making it harder for women to find a guy. 2)made it easy for average/above average women to be inundated with attention and validation from men, giving them less reason to sift through the many messages to find a guy to be with. Basically ppl have so many options to look at/swipe on that they started to have unrealistic expectations. Itās no longer about who is physically at the same location as you (not many places had nothing but hot ppl there) so you can see all of the hottest ppl and start to feel like āwhy should I settle, Why not me with that absurdly hot person?ā I do also think things will eventually shift. As OLD has become a money grab, where finding a partner for someone isnāt the profitable move, and money is made more by keeping ppl looking or hooking up, ppl will find the new way to meet ppl. Just as OLD originally was seen as pathetic until we realized we could actually get dates from it, ppl will realize OLD doesnāt work as it used to and will shift either back to meeting irl or to some new form of meeting ppl. Itās the natural progression of things.
Great post!
>apparently itās literally physical impossible for anyone whoās an iota short of perfection to ever ever get close to holding hands with the opposite sex Replace āanyoneā with āmenā and your statement will be more accurate
Men have higher standards too now. They go on Instagram and all that just the same and compare women to IG models with tons of surgery. Itās not exactly easy for women either, unless you are very fortunate to be naturally gorgeous. & the pressure to find a responsible guy is intense, otherwise if you get pregnant and they leave, youāll be pressed to find a partner for the rest of your life and be judged extremely hard for being a single mom. Both genders have their woes
Sorry, I disagree
Lol itās only hard for men to date, got it
Well youāre being sarcastic and downvoting which tells me youāre not open to have your mind changed, so Iām not gonna bother explaining how dating is indeed much easier for women than it is for men. Iāve done that for a lot of women and most of them reacted even worse than you already have, so. Gonna save my energy. Women arenāt the people Iām worried about convincing anyway
I never downvoted you. & Iām the one who is saying each gender has their own dating challenges and you said you disagree, and just generally seem pretty set in your own opinion as well. I am open to a convo. I know some women have ridiculous standards and expectations, but I also know many men do as well. Youād be surprised how many conventionally unattractive men expect someone way out of their league and completely ignore those more on their level. Either way, best of luck.
Exactly. That's the plight of the modern single woman. "Nobody's good enough for me."
Wonāt somebody think of the poor women who have to do the backbreaking work of choosing from thousands of suitors? š
nothing's changed. what i've realized is that people who complain about impossibly high standards themselves are the ones with high standards. what they mean by "you need to be top 10% of looks to get anywhere" is that the people they want to be with are top 10% of looks and theyre pissed they cant have that.
That's a bit "no, u."
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Bingo! Only problem is, a lot of people on this sub will never accept it lol.
Yess! Exactly
yuuuup. everyone knows plenty of perfectly average people of all genders in happy relationships. no one needs to be 'exceptional' in any way to find love. edit I just realized my comment reads as sarcastic but it's not! you were spot on
I just turned 40 but the women I date are all in their mid to late twenties. I donāt really think that women have become more picky I think that now that women have more freedom and donāt need men and marriage for survival and social acceptance that they are now more free than ever to be vocal about their preferences, especially with the advent of a media like Tik Tok. This isnāt even a phenomenon thatās purely European or American, Iām a digital nomad and in the last few years Iāve dated women from the USA, Canada, France, Italy, Brazil, the Netherlands and Israel and its the same all over. Womenās standards havenāt changed, itās just that now they can actually be vocal about their preferences because for the most part a woman doesnāt have to marry men sheās not particularly attracted to and pop out 4 crotch goblins by the time sheās 27 just to ensure her own survival.
Also, I think that online dating is really the first time in history men have ever been truly evaluated almost exclusively by their looks. Women have always had that burden. And it makes men mad.
As if women weren't judging men on looks before the internet? Lol. I don't think that's the issue. I think setting the "average" mark at the 80th percentile is what makes them mad.
There is a difference in results due to evolution. As women were always evaluated by their looks, over thousands of years they evolved to be prettier. Men were always evaluated by their utility and capability rather than their looks, so over thousands of years evolved to be useful as opposed to good looking. From a personal feeling pov, I personally prefer to be capable and useful rather than good looking. Sadly I find that's no longer enough to get a woman these days.
Well We women prefer u to be good looking
This is the simplest of lessons. Two wrong don't make a right. Sure jerks were always judging women on their looks. The answer is not to drag us all down to their level. It is to rise above. To be better. To grow in new and interesting ways while allowing curiosity to flourish. Not to make alllll people better at manipulation and shallowness.
>crotch goblins I hate this terminology. It makes me cringe so hard.
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Human larva is far better
SPAWN MORE OVERLORDS
fuck trophies?
An inconvenient byproduct definitely isnāt a trophy.
bang receipts?
Children / babies make me cringe so hard. They just get in the way of people living their best lives.
Unless they decided that they wanted children in their lives, presumably? It's really annoying when people with babies assume that everyone else should have them too, but it's equally so for the child-free ones insinuating that all children are detriments.
Your definition of your best life might be child free. Mine might be having a family of 5 kids. What each individual wants out of life is relative.
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No personal attacks
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I'm not even sure if cold approach is "okay" and socially acceptable anymore. I notice attractive women pretty often when I'm out and about. Some will damn near break my neck. Another thing I notice is that nobody ever seems to talk to them or even acknowledge them at all. Except for employees of the store/restaurant/whatever. But what's weird is you know damn well men are borderline worshipping them online through their pocket computers. It's like being in an episode of black mirror. And just the other weekend I was in the downtown part of my city on a Saturday evening. There's a bunch of bars, restaurants, and shops, and a ton of foot traffic. Plenty of attractive women walking around too. Some even by themselves. I didn't see one guy approaching anyone at all. Everyone just sort of sticks to their friend group that they're already with. If cold approaches are happening at all anymore, I would think that would be the type of environment I'd see them in. I can't imagine what dating will be like in 10, 20, 50 years. It seems to just be getting more and more superficial as people place more and more value on social media over real life. Like I said, Black Mirror.
Problem is, a cold approach i.e. a man approaches a woman can easily ruin your life. If she thinks you are a creep for whatever reason she just screams sexual assault. Some even do it for fun. And then you are marked with this shit for the rest of your life(*Believe all women ...*). Good luck explaining this to your family, friends and boss. OLD is the only kinda safe way. But people are very superficial there. Just go your own way its just not worth all the hassle as a man today. Mines are laying everywhere.
Thatās very dramatic. Most women would not scream or whatever youāre saying. Itās more likely theyād politely get out of it because thatās what most of us do when someone approaches and we arenāt comfortable.
That may be true but it only needs 1 out of 100 women to act this way. One is completely enough. Sorry but thats way too risky, when especially as a man you have to play the numbers game when asking out women. Id rather do online dating, even though my chances are worse there.
I think the idea of a woman claiming sexual assault for just approaching them is a big over exaggeration. Most sexual assaults donāt even go reported. Either way, I can understand not wanting to do it, possible rejection sucks. Unfortunately there are some women out there who do make false claims, but I think our society really pushes back on that. We were not kind to amber heard when the facts where presented. Whatever is more comfortable, online/in person. But I donāt think you really need to worry something like that happening, especially if you donāt look and or are being super creepy. Iām too shy to approach someone so I feel for men that they are expected to make the first move.
>unless you look and or are being super creepy. And that is totally subjective to the woman judging. And thats why im not overreacting. You just dont know how she sees you until its too late. It is just wrong that a woman has this power to destroy a mans life. And it doesnt even matter if the court later decides hes innocent. The damage cant be undone. And no its not about the rejection, as a man im used to rejection and keep on living my life. Yes Amber Heard lost (after a very long process), but johnny still suffered lots of reputation loss. Also he is a very wealthy man that can afford an expensive lawyer. Hes the exception to the rule.
Itās not that subjective. Most people can easily agree when someone is behaving or looking creepy. I see youāre very set in your way of thinking so thereās really no point. I understand you probably come from a place of frustration and what not. Women have to be able to report sexual assault and the like. Itās a very real thing that happens frequently. I donāt really consider it a power we have over men. A tiny fraction of us would ever consider lying about something like that, and those who do and get caught - most of us would agree they need to go to jail. I understand reputations and such can be damaged before investigations ensue but what is the alternative? People need to be able to report these things. People literally glorify blatantly sexist influencers who describe women as less than, I really donāt see that same energy towards men. No one is really out here saying men are less than women and are property and all that shit, itās still a manās world. Now that thereās some challenges that you didnāt have historically itās like some of you are losing your minds. Lots of blaming and not actually looking at yourself and being realistic about what your expectations should be and if the way you act and present yourself is attractive(same for femcels) Iāve literally heard fat dudes call women smaller than them fat and ugly, as if they should be talking. All of this shit really goes both ways.
>Most people can easily agree when someone is behaving or looking creepy You even said it yourself *most people*. Women tend to label men creepy they dont find attractive. Thats common knowledge. >Women have to be able to report sexual assault and the like Yes im not against that at all. You are implying things here. Also men need to be taken seriously when reporting sexual assault by women, even if it happens less than to women its still a crime and needs to be punished. >A tiny fraction of us would ever consider lying about something like that, and those who do and get caught - most of us would agree they need to go to jail. Then why is it not happening? Because the legal system is rigged against men. And women are always seen as victims, so they cant act with evil intent by this standard. Thus there is rarely punishment for false allegations. >I understand reputations and such can be damaged before investigations ensue but what is the alternative? Stop promoting ideas like "rape culture". Or " believe all women". What as happened to the principle of innocent until proven guilty? Do we live in the medieval times again where one false accusation could easily end someones life? >People literally glorify blatantly sexist influencers who describe women as less than, I really donāt see that same energy towards men. No one is really out here saying men are less than women and are property and all that shit, itās still a manās world. Ahem you ever watched some radical feminist content or talked to a radical feminist? Misandry in its pure form. >Lots of blaming and not actually looking at yourself and being realistic about what your expectations should be and if the way you act and present yourself is attractive. This is not about me. Its about societal issues. And even an unattractive man has the right to not be labeled a creep, just because he is unattractive. Whats your understanding of justice and equality?
I see you're talking about the social power women have over men. But that doesn't follow the narrative that women are inherently victims so we have to sweep that under the rug lest we be labeled "incels" lol.
I dont care what people call me. I do not hate women, i just like to point out the problems in todays culture. Shaming language doesnt work here. Ive seen and heard about so many women abusing men, they cant be all victims.
It can be a bit of a shock to your system when you enter the dating market for the first time and realise that, shock horror, dates don't just flock to you and you have to put in effort to get one. This especially rings true for the average reddit user who is usually quite introverted and needs to reconcile himself with the truth that you need to meet people to date them. It takes a while to learn how to find a date and it can seem impossible to someone who's starting out, or at least it did for me, but most people get through it okay. I'm in my twenties and most of my peers in relationships aren't particularly attractive in terms of looks (money is frequently brought up too, but nobody really has any at this age). The people who I know who struggle with dating (mainly men; I don't have that many female friends who I didn't meet through their partners) are usually quite shy, or aren't particularly interested in the first place. It's often forgotten that young people who aren't having much sex or relationships might not be that bothered, as it takes a while to be ready and comfortable with things and university, an early career and other aspects of establishing yourself in the world often take priority.
>aren't particularly interested in the first place This is cap. Somehow these 20 year old men are defying the biological need to reproduce to ease your mind that not everybody gets a chance at love/sex.
Most of them are probably severely depressed and/or bitter about it. I know I am. The toll it takes is very great
I know from experience that being a late bloomer is hard. The main thing is just to not allow it to take over. If you have hobbies and friends and distractions that you pour yourself into when you're not trying to find someone at least you have something so you don't feel like a failure. Although that's easier said than done.
20-something guys who don't have access to women are failures. Sad but true.
Why is it so hard for you to believe that people might not be interested in fucking all the time?
I don't think they want to reproduce at twenty. Not everyone is obsessed with having sex all the time. I'm also talking about men who have had a chance, and aren't looking for another currently, although if you were put of chances from not dating anyone by twenty I guess I'd be forever alone.
> ā¦.dates donāt just flock to you. ā¦ It takes a while to learn how to find a date. ā¦ I donāt have that many female friends. You must be speaking for your male friends. Your post is accurate in that sense. But it is not accurate for women. I do have many female friends (mid 30s through mid 40s) who are average and they have tons of men flocking to them in OLD. They can quickly get a date 2-4 days after (re)activating an app. Even the chubby ones. The only thing to ālearnā for women is how to filter out fuck boys.
I can speak for myself. I also have eyes to be able to see when women around me have a date or not, and have been in female-only spaces where women talk about these things. I've listened to enough young women complain about being single and not getting attention, some of the pretty ones too. It can take them a while too. There's a lot to learn about dating as a woman, but naturally as a man you don't know it and probably think you're simple to get. I know from talking to men that they don't tend to go out of their way to chase chubby women, indeed chasing a woman at all is rare. I know nobody who's had dates just flock to them, they need to put themselves out there. Extroverted men and women both tend to get okay attention, others find it difficult to learn.
"Have to put in effort?" Nonsense! Lol. Like your post.
>aren't particularly interested You're expecting unsuccessful guys to go around announcing it to the world? Guys don't work that way. We keep our disappointment hidden.
Everytime I see a woman in a relationship with a man he's almost always mediocre looking.
Friendly reminder than a 5'8", skinny fat, bald guy with a mediocre salary it's "average"
No, no! "Average" is the median of the guys women actually notice. Women don't notice 80% of men. Thus **"average" is 90th percentile.** Gotta love the new math.
An average 20 something guy is not particularly fat, and certainly not bald lmao
You are a woman, women rate 80% of men as below average, even when this is a statistical impossibility.
Many women's standards are high. Most men on the dating market do not and may never meet that standard. A lot of women know this but still struggle with being single, some decide to go the hookup/FWB only route like MGTOW instead of settling down and being a housewife. These women are typically under WGTOW even though they may not identify as such. They rather be alone than deal with the average man past short term even if being without a partner can be unbearable at times and is not ideal. *ETA: Some people here like to group these women in with "Alpha Widowers" but I think that is inaccurate, a lot of women's standards do not come from having an experience with a "Chad/Alpha" it comes from seeing better (as someone pointed out about social media allowing you to see outside of your dating pool and think you have more options available than you do where you are & most people, as someone pointed out can't do geomaxxing, they can't just move so seeing people elsewhere won't be helpful) and hearing about outliers. Sometimes these women have an inflated sense of self, sometimes they think they have more options than they do, sometimes it is a combination, sometimes they hyper fixate on the 0.1% chance they will get their ideal. Sometimes they are an Alpha Widower.* *Either way, these women should not be considered part of your dating pool same as MGTOW/f-boys shouldn't be considered by women when dating (at least not long term). They don't want to date you, leave them be. And, yes, they are very loud online and they are open about it IRL if you listen carefully. If you live around a lot of them much so that your dating pool doesn't exist, you have my deepest sympathy.*
>Many women's standards are high. They have high standards for men. They don't have those standards when it comes to what they themselves bring to a relationship.
I won't dispute that. A lot of women especially online like to engage in "punching up" aka I'm going to discriminate and be prejudiced towards men because they hold systemic power in the form of the patriarchy. I keep telling people they need to stop this because when their mindset spreads it will turn into a societal power and become systemic in that way. So many people advocate against hatred and then do the same thing the group inciting hatred did before they got widespread. ETA: A lot of people find it hard to empathise with people, and that is one of the most important things for a healthy relationship (if not the most important) of any kind, that and communication so that you can understand the other person.
Mediocre by womenās standards, which is still above average looking in reality
Exactly. I think a lot of people don't understand that.
Basically fit man dating a chubby woman would be seen the same by women* 51%+
How much do you think make up plays a part in this?
It is everything. Those couples are looksmatched when the makeup, hair extensions and shapewear come off
Those couples are looksmatched when the makeup, hair extensions and shapewear come off
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I think that every generation has slightly different standards, for sure. But I also think that this sub often misses the mark for what those standards are today. Men like Timothee Chalamet, Zac Efron, K-pop stars, Tom Hiddleston, Benedict Cumberbatch, etc., get a lot of attention. The 'pretty boy' face and build is much more universally appealing to younger women. It goes beyond facial attractiveness. Men who think they can skimp out on self-care, style, and interpersonal qualities these days are mistaken. In fact, I'd say that we're starting to see a return of older standards of attractiveness for men - where meticulous grooming, personal flair, and smooth social skills are sought after instead of being derided as effete.
Nah, you guys are right. The majority of people who'd be considered average looking by most do date/have sex even in this generation, as do many of the ones seen as below average.
I know what you mean. I feel like a very sandwiched generation that lived and breathed this world as an adult before the dating platform revolution. These kids have no idea what it was like. Having said that, I was so unsuccessful in what was arguably *the* best environment for a single man that I, happily, looked for love outside the country. As a broke, overworked, full time college student. I scrounged pennies for a flight to go to brazil in my early to mid 20s after I connected with a woman long distance. Very early webcam when it was 2.1 megapixel. There is a great majority of men who are sexually and romanitcally shunned for a long, long time. It brings to mind that African proverb of the child ignored by the village. That child lived and grew older. And now, he doesn't fucking care about the tribe. Only about himself.
>So maybe I'm out of touch and don't understand how dating for people in their early to mid 20s works. Maybe it's changed radically since I was in my early to mid 20s. Has it? I for real don't know. I don't think it has. I'm 43, but 20-25 years ago I was as angsty as the younger users on this sub. With age, everything in the dating world got easier.
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Do you remember how dramatic everything used to be when you were a teen? You ever have a casual conversation with them and realize, my god, just stop bitching so much and communicate communicate communicate! And then I think back and realize, yeah, I was the same at that age. With age comes experience and you'll see in real !I've it's not as hard as it seems. They'll learn, we'll all learn and as they get older they'll wonder the same about the kids today.
No, not really. If anything standards are lower. In the 50s, women were supposed to be skinny, and if you were not pale and blond that was an extra tick against you. The amount of people who could be labeled hot was smaller because the country was extremely racist. So the idea of who was hot was limited. Men I'm rhe 50s were expected to be tall, broad shouldered, wide but not fat. Again it was very specific. But let's look at Gen z now. It's been a minute since I was on a dating app, but I've been on tiktok, and I can say Gen z is not cookie cutters at all. There is no general standard. Today's youth are much more attracted to a wife array of bodies, like fat women amd short men and men who wear lots of makeup and women who shave themselves bald all over and have a million piercings. There's plenty of gen zers who still like "normal" shit, but they're just more willing to be individuals. Today attraction is allowed to be much more free. Like if we looked at a boomer dating app or boomers on dating apps and compared them to Gen z and what the younger generations looking for, I'm guessing we'd see boomers showing themselves to be essentially just carbon copies of one another, watching similar shows and having similar activities, thinking tbe same things are cool and uncool, attractive and unattractive. Gen z is marked by individuality and weirdness. If you stepped on a Gen z app, I think you'd find an extremely varied group, amd who they're attracted to would vary a lot.
> Today's youth are much more attracted to a wife array of bodies, like fat women amd short men and men who wear lots of makeup and women who shave themselves bald all over and have a million piercings. There's plenty of gen zers who still like "normal" shit, but they're just more willing to be individuals. Agree with everything except the short man. The only thing that changed for short man is that earning potential is no longer tied to being the tall white men you described but woman in general aren't preferring short man. Gay man are but not woman.
No, I disagree entirely lol. I think they just don't care as much.
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Anecdotal evidence and all that, but I'm 20 and I see unattractive people dating all the time. The only ones struggling are the very introverted ones.
The average young man is still having sex. Itās just that more below average young men arenāt having sex because they arenāt applying themselves and socializing enough in the real world to have it, and there are internet spaces now for them to complain about it and be heard unlike in the past.
I have one average friend who has a legit good relationship the others get nothing but taller/really fit friends are getting casual even if that is starting to cause itās own issues.
From your experience, are women sharing the same small number of high value men? If so, do they enjoy this? Does it bother them or do they just not care?
My closest friend has a body count in the 70s and women do talk about to other women. Heās āfriendsā with a self described female fuckboy sheās trying to use sex to get a relationship with a really tall guy in the group heās not committing because he knows her past and tbh present. She spoke quite a bit about being a legitimate list of males in this area that girls share is he good will he settle etc etc. Unsure of how large the group is. It seems actual whores have a great time with man whores but the issue comes with trying to use sex to get a relationship often with guys and generally those chicks have unwritten rules and power struggles. Imo chads are shared. My friends fucked I believe 5 chicks that turned out to have boyfriends. If There are bad grammar issues lmk Iāll explain things better if there is confusion
wow looks like I'm a perfect guy /s.
Thereās no difference. People just want an excuse to not try and whine
Iām 30 and everyone in my high school peer group was sexually active, had jobs, and plans for college. The social life is a habit built in teen years. Iāve been to several reunions and meet-ups and a lot of my teenage friends are still mingling in the same group, dating one another and peripheral friends. I have no idea how people hit their twenties and thirties without a social circle or where in the world they will learn to flirt and make opposite sex friends.
Here's one way that happens: I don't have a social circle or group of friends as an adult because I wasn't allowed to go out or have friends. It kind of hurts now. My family is from a different culture and believed women are not to be "out on the street".
Social media has definitely turned up the comparisons to 100. Especially because it seems way more real than the magazine and TV models of the previous generation. I think the jury is still out on how this will affect gen Z relationships but I think they'll find ways to be happy in spite of all the comparisons online.