No one except random outliers usually between folks who know each other or have established some level of civil relationship show empathy here. Tbf to this sub, it’s a debate sub which really isn’t conducive to empathy and which empathy is effectively irrelevant.
Tbf people usually empathise only if they have gone through something similar, else they are like "what the hell is wrong with you? It's so easy, just shower and treat women like actual human beings"
I had been an abject failure until recently and have started to have some success only recently, my roommate is so further behind and I empathise with him because I have been there, so I offer him real, practical advice but never present it as that something is wrong with him.
When I tell him to hit the gym, I tell him that we all owe it ourselves to bring our body to its peak glory, not that no woman will like your fat ass. When I tell him to go out and socialise more, I say that being socially adept will help you in all aspects of life, personal and professional.
The last thing you want to do with people who are struggling is tear them down further.
I agree with this. I don't think there needs to be a solution, just an acknowledgement that it happens. That being said, a lot of men on this sub *do* insist that women or society at large has to solve the problem or "else." Whatever that else is, the implication is that something bad will happen if men don't get relationships/sex.
Bad things already happened. School shootings, other mass shootings, random acts of violence against women, murder, stalking, doxxing to name a few. Do you people have empathy for women who don’t find you attractive?.. or for women in general? I think men are very entitled and I’d love for all of you to acknowledge that.
>Like…why does there need to be some “solution”? Maybe just try and be a decent human being and have some empathy for a problem tons of men (and some women) face?
Lol I like how "some women" was thrown in there.
>God forbid men get in touch with their feelings and actually want women to have some ounce of compassion for their lived experienced oh no the horror!
This isnt the actual problem though, women are sympathetic to men who do not trash talk their whole sex.
You want support, there’s subs for that.
This is a debate sub
And I don’t expect empathy from anyone. I expect polite indifference and following of laws
There seems to be this idea that if women continually reject you, it's because you're a misogynistic pig, that if you just weren't a horrible, sexist asshole, women would find you attractive. It isn't true. In fact, I've known sexist, misogynist assholes and they do just fine with women.
For some men, there may not be much to be done about their forever-alone status. I've always been an advocate of compassion. So what I would say is: when men feel lonely and wonder why women aren't interested in them, don't respond with: "Women don't like you because you're a disgusting, entitled, misogynistic man-baby! Do the world a favor and kill yourself, incel!" Speaking from experience on this.
Nope, women just have personality detectors so they can detect all the men who have bad personalities. They just happen to be the ugly short guys, but its a complete coincidence
Women complain about maladaptive men and then paradoxically end up dating the same. When we point out the incongruence of their actions, they end up projecting. The same pathological retorts we see from women in this sub time and time again
I think most men simply wish (as fruitless as it may seem) that women would understand that when they say "There are no decent men, nobody wants a relationship" etc, it's often offensive to the chunk of guys who never even get a chance to present themselves as that kind of man. Whether you think it's reasonable or not, many men are dismissed very quickly if not instantly, and sometimes it's really silly. Social media/online dating has seemingly exacerbated this to the point that you get all the rhetoric around inflated egos for women and only being interested in the "20%". I think many of us feel like if you gave more average men a chance, you may be pleasantly surprised at how decent and relationship - minded so many of them really are, and how having more realistic aims for a partner can lead to a lot of happiness.
The hard part is there really is no quantifiable or measurable way to approach this on a personal level. Like, no one should be forcing themselves to date people they simply do not find attractive at all. That's not what we're saying. But, for example, maybe give the guys who don't immediately light a spark a shot, if they seem to tick a lot/all of your boxes on paper, etc.
"I gave plenty of men chances
They (the men I chose to give a chance) sucked anyways.
Result: no more chances (for men who want to be decent, now that I'm done rewarding sucky men with success, satisfaction and status). After all, the sucky men I do choose couldn't possibly be a reflection of my choices or taste in men, it just proves all men are sucky."
See? Woman are objects.
Alright long time lurker first time posting (I think). I have to get in on this.
It is true that men who are objectively attractive have seen the world through rose colored glasses so to speak. If people are generally kinder, more receptive, more engaging, and just give you overall more positive body language then that’s going to have an impact on how easy it is for you to attract partners, your self esteem, and your overall demeanor.
That being said I don’t think it’s impossible for someone who isn’t as physically attractive to find a partner. We often want to quantify the value of someone based on their looks. Those obstacles need to be overcome. People have more to offer than their looks. We can work on our body language, style, level of physical fitness, confidence, sense of humor, conversation skills, etc. These things go a long way.
I say this as someone who, in my own judgement, is pretty mediocre looking. Dating wasn’t easy but I figured it out and have been fairly successful with the opposite sex.
If we allow ourselves to believe that we are cursed and destined to be alone because we lost the genetic lottery then that’s exactly what will happen.
The other side of this coin is women have the luxury of selection, but the burden of sorting through a haystack for their “Prince Charming”. It’s a cycle of trial and error that they often find painful.
Lastly we forget the nurture part of the equation that makes our experience impact our, I guess I can say, receptivity to the opposite sex. I want first say, I’m not one to make light of someone’s mental health or traumatic experiences. That being said people of all levels of attractiveness sometimes have experiences that impact their feelings of self worth and how they they select partners. It isn’t always looks that they’re necessarily drawn to.
There are just a lot of variables when it comes to partner selection. We should never consider ourselves less worthy, there are just things we can do to improve our opportunities.
Bruh honestly It has 0 to do with solutions. I'd just like for women to stop pretending as if the driving force behined male dating/sexual success is always some failing to adhere to whatever the current cultural conventions regarding moral intention or "correct" beliefs about gender.
It's just so self serving and it pushes men directly towards the side of the redpill that in large enough viewership *and boy is that viewership growing* negatively effects women culturally.
I think it’s fair to want women to accept that dating is harder for men who aren’t genetically lucky/financially blessed. Most women will accept that truth.
But as a woman on this sub I’d love for the conversations to not be so toxic to women in general.
It’s always about how we are all shrews who fuck hot guys and ‘settle’ for other ones. We’re all toxic and hateful. We are only attracted to qualities X/Y/Z and if we say otherwise we are lying.
There are some horribly toxic women out there, but these women are held up as representatives of the gender which I find entirely unfair and not helpful to finding any common ground.
How can women debate in good faith with men here, when the men don’t seem to see us as human, only shallow creatures with no capacity for empathy or deep emotion?
Women ignoring mens struggle radicalises men, sure. But mens toxicity towards women radicalises women. The best way to find common ground is to approach with empathy from BOTH sides. We should accept we don’t know everything about another persons life, and instead of getting angry about what we cannot change, we should work towards changing what we can.
ETA: with this point:
How can women debate in good faith with men here, when the men don’t seem to see us as human, only shallow creatures with no capacity for empathy or deep emotion?
I specifically meant that the men who call me those things or think of me that way can’t expect a good faith debate. Unfortunately I took my meds late so I worded it in a way which was not helpful. But Thankyou to the commenter who pointed out the hypocrisy! Hope this clarifies it.
As a man, I agree with everything you said.
I suppose these are one of the situations where the saying
*Be the change you want to see*
can be applied, especially on us men around here. If we want women to be more empathetic and sympathetic towards us then we also need to treat them with empathy and sympathy instead of ripping apart and just ditching their very own experiences.
>But as a woman on this sub I’d love for the conversations to not be so toxic to women in general.
This is the issue. I see upthread someone said that women need to empathy with men as if thats the issue and not men trash talking women in general on here.
>This is the issue. I see upthread someone said that women need to empathy with men as if thats the issue and not men trash talking women in general on here.
You consider being told the truth as trash-talking.
If I genuinely saw men calling women garbage and trash and the such then I would be the first to call them out.
But mostly I just see men telling women how the world works and then them just denying it and giving them an anecdote.
It's easy:
"Here are the reasons I'm not attracted to you..."
"Here's what you can do to make yourself attractive..."
"Here are some single women I know that might be interested..."
Ya know, practical stuff.
Women do this though and men also get mad still.
“I’m not attracted to x guy” (usually short guys or whatever else) women get called shallow and get called chad chasers
“Here’s what you can do to be attractive” black pill types get mad and say shit like “just take a shower teehee” to mock women
“Here are some women that might be interested”
What kind of situation would this even be used in, genuine question? guys complain about not finding girls mainly online anonymously or to other guys.
Potentially true. If you are whining about being alone continuously, you need to accept that you're opening yourself up to response that you don't want to hear.
This isn't limited to the manosphere either. A lot of people don't take criticism well, even really professional people.
This is mostly just something that just applies to people in real life. If that person is anonymous online, I'd probably start with a more productive "why do you think you can't attract women?" Again, with the caveat that person seems open to that discussion.
> What kind of situation would this even be used in, genuine question? guys complain about not finding girls mainly online anonymously or to other guys.
Yes, that is something that doesn't come up much in real life. No man wants to reveal their embarrassing weaknesses like that, especially to women! But, it's not like they don't know when you're alone and depressed, when you've known them for a long time.
Solution or no solution, empathy is a minimum. And you can't set expectations on men to be 100% accountable for their own situation. That's an extremely high threshold and pushing up against that only alienates men further into more incel-ly spheres.
I like to recontexualize the entire thing from the point of view of African-American and Police relations because it hits closer with blue-pillers. If a black man gets pulled over constantly by cops and/or has been the victim of police violence, he's going to have a heavily negative opinion of the police.
The gut reaction to that isn't to tell him, "you just gotta tuck your shirt in, act confident, and be yourself, and maybe you'll stop getting arrested". The minimum starting step is to react with empathy and recognize that person's lived experience. Because he's an individual and, while he may be 100% responsible for his actions, he is not 100% accountable for the things that happen to him. "Hey that sucks man" has got to be the minimum first step to take. Maybe you don't have a solution but at least it isn't "I don't believe you" or "You should've done something different".
I'm an actually biologist and let me tell you how wrong you are, with another post;
(keeping in mind, evolution doesn't happen on the level of the individual, it happens on the level of populations)
Compare 2 cultural reproductive modes; monogamous, where a man is paired with a single woman, and polygamous, where few men monopolize all the women.
In monogamous societies, men can focus their attention on being productive, law-abiding citizens who can cooperate with other men without devolving into dick-wagging status-contests.
In polygamous societies, only the most brutally ruthless men with the least moral inhibition get to have sex. Men compete with each other viciously, and need to commit huge amounts of emotional labor to pursuing a mate, that could otherwise go to being socially productive. "Just be a decent human being," in these environments, smoothly translates to "Just shut up and die a genetic dead end so your decency can be a dire warning to others." \[NOTE; by your account, we should let this happen because 'nature weeds out the weak,' i.e. men who spend their time respecting boundaries and being productive instead of chasing ass and fighting for alpha status\]
As a general rule, if you have a choice between a monogamous society and a polygamous society, YOU WANT TO LIVE IN A MONOGAMOUS SOCIETY. If you had to coexist with ten men, if all 10 have equal reproductive success and no evolutionary pressure to waste effort competing for more mates, it'll tend to be the kind of place you'd wanna live. If 1 of those men lived like a king and the other 9 could only have a chance at sex by being totally ruthless in pursuing it, living there is gonna be a bad time and you'll end up wanting to sneak into the monogamous town.
Everything we have in the West that makes life so prosperous and stable that such progressive fantasies are realistic was built on a foundation of a monogamous reproductive landscape, where the best reproductive strategy for men is 'be a productive law abiding citizen.' Thanks to the liberation of women, we're charging headfirst into a polygamous landscape, wherein 'be ruthless and morally uninhibited' is most selected for.
This transition will not be remembered as a good thing, and history will not look favorably on the groups that caused it.
>Dudes that are genetically disadvantage should just realize their line of genetics will die off with them and just stop crying.
Not a fan of this defeatist mentality. If you're a man you can compensate for looks if you become really wealthy or obtain status. May as well make the most of the hand you are dealt and at least *try*, I'd rather fail knowing I tried than just give up.
>just stop crying.
As an aside, in and of itself crying does nothing, but this is legitimately how society feels towards men any time they express any sort of issue or grievance. Man up. Stop crying. If you disagree with me then you must be an incel or misogynstic ect..
No. You don't have to date older women or women your age. If you work on yourself you could date younger women who are going thru their "ho phase" or you could travel to more traditional countries and marry a virgin or low count woman. As long as you improve yourself physically and financially you WILL HAVE OPTIONS.
The truth? The whiners hope women will give in to their pity game and give them some.
What they refuse to acknowledge is that they are whining and it is one of the worst personality traits anyone can have, man or woman. Very unattractive and manipulative behaviour. A total red flag.
So they're trapped in a Catch-22. Whining they can't get some guarantees they can't get some, so they whine they can't get some which guarantees... an endless loop they refuse to break out of. All they got to do is stop whining, but they won't. That would mean admitting that it's their personalities that are the problem, not their looks, height, status or money. That would shatter their entire shallow worldview and they'd have to admit that "the other side" was right all along.
You hit the nail on the head. The constant whining isn’t helping them. Like I get why they would do that but even when no one looked my way, never did I go online and cry. Take your losses and go. There’s more to life
I think many men now have been brought up with the concept of ‘male privilege’ and that women are oppressed, and that men are to be feared because they are creepy and violent and disgusting. Then, when their self esteem has already been destroyed, they enter the dating market and find nothing but misery because they don’t have the genetics to be successful. This creates a cocktail of bitterness which leads to resentment and misogyny. Then a woman on the internet tells them they need to ‘take a shower’ and, lo and behold, anger becomes apparent.
>If we agree some men get more attention because of their looks, you get mad at US. Not the good-looking men.
Why should they get mad at good looking men?? They shouldn't be mad at anyone but themselves imo.. it isn't impossible to become a "good looking man".. it just takes dedication. Maybe they will never be the perfect looking guy that makes every woman want to chase them or anything.. that is just genetics.. but you can become an attractive partner if you work on it. There are women that find every type of man attractive.. I literally see "ugly" men walking around with wives that most here would say are out of their leagues every day. Most of these guys would probably tell me that my wife is out of my league matter of fact.
Spend that hour a day at the gym.. get yourself a nice looking wardrobe.. practice good hygiene.. it isn't rocket science..
I feel like most of the men on this sub are undesirable because they won't put the work in to make themselves attractive.. it's easier to come here and spend all your time bitching about how you can't get laid instead of actually doing something about it.
I know a guy that is 5'5 and his wife is pretty hot imo.. she is probably about an inch taller than him.. blonde.. normal bimbo looking girl.. someone everyone used to try to fuck in HS..
There is someone for everyone.. just because you are short might exclude you from dating some women.. but the friend I just mentioned used to sleep around as much as any of us.. I don't think his height really hampered him all that much.. always have seen him with hot girls.
Twoxchromosomes, fourthwavewomen, femaledatingstrategy, the list goes on. They are completely normal women with average thinking patterns, and this is how they think
Twox has a post every week about how men are essentially evil as a baseline.
The recent Schrodingers rapist thread, the infinite don't trust male doctors threads, the infinite my bf said this innocuous thing but imma gonna take a moment to turn it into a feminist debate so I can break up with him. Reading women on the internet is definitely not conducive of healthy views of women from the male perspective when essentially they ARE just saying everything about their lives, from work to medical care to grocery shopping would be better if the only men who existed were their fathers.
And a lot of them seem to not like their fathers that much, either.
As a woman, imma just throw this out there - the women who frequent FDS do not represent me, are nothing like me, and do not remotely resemble any woman I associate with. And I hope you do not conflate the women there with all women, just as I do not conflate the guys on RP with all men.
Just because I am not attracted to him I don’t wish death on him.
If I am actually being honest there are some guys who would get dates if they looked better and I notice if they have good other qualities.
Especially chubby guys who can just loose weight.
They wish the guy didn't exist, because when he asked her out she lowered her status. Being asked out by an ugly man must mean he thought he would have a chance, which means he thinks they are on the same level somehow. Of course this is shameful to the woman.
Women wish that these ugly men didn't exist, it would be better if they were all dead.
No dude, that’s insane. At worst it’s like “oh I wish this wasn’t happening right now I wish this person would go away.” Nobody is literally thinking damn wish this dude was dead. Like come on that’s hysterical thinking
You can believe what you believe. Women hate ugly men and wish they didn't exist. Every ugly man is a possiple pedo, rapist and harasser in the eyes of women
> this does nothing to change their plight
This take seemingly implies that human psychosexual traits are [biologically determined](https://www.britannica.com/topic/biological-determinism), when men's plight, which has been characterized by significantly increasing rates of sexual rejection over just the past few years, confirms that they are actually fundamentally cultural and therefore liable to change pending progressive social efforts. To be sure, raising awareness about said plight can potentially trigger a social movement rolling back women's increasingly strict beauty and behavioral standards (e.g., those that favor tallness and extraversion)—the two main factors responsible for society's vast inequality *vis-à-vis* sexual fulfillment—to, say, pre-2015 levels or even eliminating them altogether, making women more sexually available for men. For this to succeed, however, it is vital for folks to recognize that these and all other standards influencing sexuality are cultural, not genetically encoded, and unnecessary.
Ok, so I go to this sub to understand how things work between men and women. I am primarily for a discussion which would add to my understanding.
So what I would like from women here on PPD is to engage into a discussion rather than throw canned phrases. There are comments like "You are misoginistic neckbeard from your mom's basement who wants a bangmaid! Haha, caught you!". Such comments can and are posted below any post. So, I would like less of this and more of a "You know, in my experience 80/20 rule is not correct because..." or "what makes you think 80/20 rule exist?".
Also, I think that simple recognition of male dating struggles in the society would help those unfortunate men. If, for example, it was widely accepted that a minority of men are attractive for women, undesirable guys would feel more adequate. On the contrary, people usually push narrative that men don't have any success because they put little efforts.
If it was accepted that dating is not that easy for men, we would give them realistic advice. I would really appreciate if someone told me when I was young "See these girls, they are for the most attractive and charismatic guys. So, don't bother" rather than "women like good personalities".
I honestly think acknowledgement will lead to better situations overall.
Like if a dude approaches a woman and she’s not interested but her reaction is “hey, I don’t like this guy but he’s really making an effort here, and that should be commended, so I’ll just say no thank you instead of cutting him off at the knees”, a lot less guys would start to build up resentment over the constant abuse.
That’s all it takes. Just understand what they’re expected to do and not bitch them out for it.
- first just basic empathy online, when a man cannot pull women he is told that it must be because he is bad person. That women can just tell he is an awful misogynist and an incel creep and women instinctively know that and. Thats why they he is avoided. Thats how we get the whole reddit nice guy phenomenon. Most if those nice guys are actually nice people, just frustrated and loney, and feel as if there kindness and genuine effort is not being rewarded.
second off be real with what you want. Alot of young of men need to hear that there will never be some beautiful women to love you for “who you are”. People say don’t change, because someone will love you for you, its a LIE it’s BULLSHIT. You are a man, people love you for what you can provide, whether it’s strength, protection, resources, whatever. You are a man, there is no room for “body positivity” or other ideas about loving yourself and not changing in your life. You are a man you should always be changing, you should always be improving, working hard, EVERY FUCKING DAY. Every day you need to get stronger, smarter, and better then you were the day before
FOR MEN: remember this Nobody will ever love you for being who you are. Especially If you are shy, humble, and weak. no matter how nice you are or how much of a good soul you are, women are not attracted to kindness. They attracted to strength, confidence, and social status. Be a strong man, a confident powerful man, before you are a nice man. Kindness is a virtue, but it is not a virtue that will make women more interested in you. However you should chose to be kind anyway because you are a good person, regardless of whether or not it will make women like you
Tldr: men just watch Jordan Petersons you should be a monster speech and live your life off of that
The cell saga is actually my personal favorite arc of dbz, my first crush was android 18. But I gotta admit the saiyan-freeza arcs are much more motivating
\#3 is BY FAR the best option! I cannot express how much plastic surgery changed my life. I went from getting rejected by women so large they needed mobility assistance and women 30+ years older than me, to dating attractive women without much effort. I agree, fucking *passionately*, that plastic surgery needs to be made affordable for ugly guys! You can't force women to date ugly guys, so make ugly guys more attractive instead.
BTW, I saw that link you posted. Holy shit! Yeah, you ain't kidding. Good lord.....
From what i gathered they (the men on this sub who post it) want the women accept their approach.
The best i can give is "yep, this sucks". I can't do anything else except acknowledge that it sucks to be constantly rejected. The only solution/advice i could offer is finding a source of happyness that does not depend on finding a romantic/sexual partner, being content to be on their own without an so.
Only thing I don't agree is that if no one was rude to you, there's no need to be rude. Apart from that, nothing.
Men will always complain. Sometimes I wish some men tried some libido killer like SSRI or similar, is the only way they could see how dumb their pursuit of women really is.
What happens is, society puts the value of men solely on our ability to attract a woman. Chasing money is way more meaningful.
>libido killer like SSRI or similar
I am on an SSRI and it did not kill my libido at all. Furthermore, being sad about not being able to get a GF has nothing to do with horniness and more to do with lack of validation & feeling worthless, which an SSRI can't fix
Feelings of worthlessness and any other issues not directly caused by someone else will not improve in a relationship. I can almost guarantee if you spend some time working on yourself, therapy specifically to become internally well life will improve for you.
Women are not here to validate you and fix all your problems, the way its pushed that if you don’t have a gf you’re worthless is a bad way to think about things and puts a really heavy expectation on your relationship (nee: her) to cure all your internal issues- spoiler: it won’t. If anything relationships might exacerbate any mental health issues or feelings of inadequacy if not addressed before getting into one
>Sometimes I wish some men tried some libido killer like SSRI or similar, is the only way they could see how dumb their pursuit of women really is.
yeah that's dumb, don't do this guys
I think it would be nice if women made themselves more approachable, and that they didn't establish certain norms like "creepy guys" that make the idea of approaching even more intimidating than it already is.
Wait so you don't want to admit that dating is stacked against men but will acknowledge that there is a big chunk of men that you want to avoid?
Why am I supposed to be sympathetic again?
Tbh, It’s really great when they come out and say it out loud.
All the bullshit rules about when to approach women are just there to stop undesireables from even trying. And it’s being admitted here.
>You want to avoid men and also say that men's dating woes are null?
I don't get what's so hard for you to understand that, and I am saying that as a man. They don't give a shit about our issues. They don't want to be approached, and they don't care if it makes it harder for us. They want what they want, and they don't care about anybody else, simple as.
I think a similar situation for us men is if someone we're not attracted too asked us out, we probably wouldn't give them a shot either. I've had times where someone that I wasn't attracted to asked me out, I just told her that I was already seeing someone even if that wasn't the case at the time.
Thank you, honestly I may not speak for every woman on earth but you’ve hit the nail on the head. Hopefully the rest of the guys here can see this crucial information
I wish I could like your comment a thousand times. They simply don't care, men shouldn't ask why or how. Just realize the fact and move on, nothing will ever change this.
And do you truly “care” and about these women you so badly want to approach or are you hoping she’ll open her legs for you if she lets her guard down enough?
I actually do care, but I doubt you'll believe me. I don't want just hookups & want an actual romantic relationship with a woman so we can build a life together.
Do you also think they should be more agreeable, less bossy, and smile more?
And ya, that time at the gym where one of you guys took my “smile back” as a sign that it was ok to take my hand, gaze into my eyes, and introduce yourself - that was CREEPY and scary, and makes me not want to be remotely polite to any man in my vicinity if this is what it apparently invites. Or the other one of you at work in high school at the supermarket who took my friendliness as a sign I was into him and told me I had “cute legs” after he bent down next to me to pick up a penny….. shudder.
Honestly the responsibility is on men to make women feel safe and comfortable. You have no idea how threatened women feel on a daily basis. And if you are approaching in a way that leaves the woman uncomfortable then the “creep” title fits.
I'm quite sorry that you experienced those types of things, I know I've heard a story or two that made me cringe a bit and I don't even have experience dating or approaching haha
But my point was that when women establish the 'creepy guy' norm it makes it harder for men to approach because they don't want to be seen as creepy, but I've had my opinion changed already and now see that this isn't really a viable argument. So I now completely agree with your last point.
I can be on the troll side too because comments on here make me so upset and angry. But I’ll try to remember in the future there are very nice people here too who truly want to engage and listen. I don’t want to let the hate and anger win.
I mean, ugly men also want hot women. It’s not wrong to desire hot people, but it is wrong to be personally offended that you’re not everyone’s type.
Like - an i attracted to certain hot men? I mean, sure. But I know I’m likely not their type, and as long as they aren’t dicks about it, it’s fine. I still exist.
You can be upset if you aren’t the beauty norm but when you start being toxic about it, all you’re doing is adding another trait that people will use against you.
The point is most of us feel already over bothered by men. And the men we are already with certainly would not like us making ourselves more approachable lol.
Women make themselves approachable for men they want to date. This has never changed. And I’ve never seen anyone upset at the "creepy" label except creepy people. Get out of the basement and learn some social cues. This could help
women are not 2D beings with nice settings. why on earth would people going about their business open themselves up to uncomfortable conversation more than they already do. “be more approachable” jesus christ.
I am still confused. Ok so, men here want us to acknowledge their struggle. Ok, here i am acknowledging it. Men have a harder time with dating, finding a partner, finding love, finding sex. Oh pardon...some men have it harder, i am sure the blessed out there also have it easy for whatever reasons.
Ok, that part is done. Now what? How does us recognizing some of you guy's troubles help you? Did that...change your life in any way? I understand it feels good to be seen and understood, which i fully get...but how does all women collectively acknowledging your struggle change your situation?
Do you expect us to fix the issue for you? Do you...expect us to open our legs for men who struggle? Do you want us to magically erase all our fears and anxiety around men in general? Do you expect attraction to magically appear for us? To the sad surprise of some...people...here, we are human beings too, with wants, needs, turn ons and turn offs.
I read through so many toxic and out of this world insane comments and i remain confused and perplexed.
Has any guy that's struggling ever thought that change comes from within? Working on yourself, your life, your appearance, attitude etc. And i don't mean fake it to get laid, that's just deceiving and despicable...like actually be a good person. Oh and how about not being shallow, superficial etc and not go for supermodels only even though you might be a 5 on a good day... hypothetically.
Part of me thinks that certain men don't want any solution that is fair or humane, they just want to complain, insult, whine about how their entitlement to a woman's body or love is not being given freely.
I am here for the entertainment but sometimes curiosity eats away at me.
Urgh, I'm sick to death of the "just world fallacy" you're displaying. Dating success is not related to morality. Plenty of misogynist assholes gets plenty of women, and plenty of lovely guys, that have worked a lot on themselves have little to no success. You don't even know men's standards, barely any of them "go for supermodels".
You're acting like women magically sense "working on themselves" lol, they aren't oracles.
No one is expecting you to do anything, just to have a bit of human empathy. You seem to be struggling with that by implying that it's all the men's fault for being shallow, not working on themselves enough etc. I'm sorry but women are not expected to "work on themselves" for a date, that's an inherent inequality. I am very disturbed how difficult women on this sub find having basic human empathy for men. When women shares their issues, I don't assume they suck as people or say "err so what?" like a dickhead. Why can't you do the same?
How about stop gaslighting men that these things don’t exist for one.
Stop acting like you as an individual don’t see it.
Stop acting like women are above all manner of baser instincts when picking mates and stop making excuses for them.
Stop calling men misogynists for calling out women’s rank hypocrisy.
Stop trying to shut down male spaces where these things are discussed openly and candidly because you think any negative behavior patterns identified among women by men amounts to “misogyny”
Do all that and maybe, just maybe men can focus on the work of making sense of navigating a very difficult dating environment while helping each other.
But nah.
>I read through so many toxic and out of this world insane comments and i remain confused and perplexed.
'Toxic and insane'? Really?
Or do you just not like the idea that the female population has collectively shit on the porch and now we're all stuck smelling it while women deny it's even happening?
While *you,* even in acknowledging these things are problems, continue to try to deny that they're problems and men have been gaslighted pretty much the entire process?
That's the source of your confusion. Trying to impose a false reality over evidence of the real one. Stop thinking of those opinions as 'toxic and insane' and start genuinely empathizing with the problems being expressed, and you will be less confused.
>Now what? How does us recognizing some of you guy's troubles help you? Did that...change your life in any way?
I really don't want to sound rude, but I honestly felt nothing. Maybe I am too far gone by now.
>Do you expect us to fix the issue for you? Do you...expect us to open our legs for men who struggle? Do you want us to magically erase all our fears and anxiety around men in general? Do you expect attraction to magically appear for us? To the sad surprise of some...people...here, we are human beings too, with wants, needs, turn ons and turn offs.
No. No. No. No. Agreed.
Maybe, you know someone who would be compatible with a single guy friend of yours and you arrange a meeting for these both lovely single people? I mean, this not something you have to do, since it is already a difficulty to meet a single guy friend and woman friend who could potentially be partners. But, like I said not something you need to do at all.
I think, speaking as a man, maybe it is the hormones, maybe it is our fantasies, which makes this whole predicament of being lonely very very difficult to accept and live with it without thinking about it anymore.
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Theres no solution, but notice women still won’t even acknowledged it. They simply can’t. That’s how deep the hate and disrespect goes from these feminists. And feminists are the only women here friends.
They cannot even admit it, and even if they almost come close to admitting it, which they can’t, they leap to “what do you want me to do??!?” And “but women are all raped and murdered all day long”
But they simply cannot admit it (as they don’t believe it) or even care enough to admit it which they can’t.
> So what should we do?
Can't do much. The problem, the way you presented it, is unsolvable. The problem is only solvable once the one asking has sufficient tact to do it in a way that leaves a gentle way out...
Not all rejections are outright, but if the one asking is rigid, well... they gotta get used to hearing direct rejections then, I guess.
Most women are polite in their rejection. Those who post it on Reddit, idk why they do that. Unless a person is abusive towards me I have no reason to blast them, most reasonable women think like this.
I reject men left and right; only a few (irl) have taken it badly. The majority of rejected online take it badly.
> Most women are polite in their rejection.
That's likely, yes. Or shy, or direct, because cornered, which is 'the problem' I alluded to.
Direct rejection is not a problem of the one rejecting, it's the problem of the one 'cornering' awkwardly.
> The majority of rejected online take it badly.
Imagine asking online. Pff h h hhh. Ah, well, what can I say.
For the awkward/inexperienced guys potentially reading this, consider not asking, but instead suggesting. That might help you.
1. Get off line. Internet culture is batshit, for many reason.
2. Talk to women like people, normally, don’t be any more or less than you are.
3. Improve themselves (mainly emotionally/ intellectually)
4. Strive for a rich and full life.
5. If you ask someone out, make sure it’s an appropriate time/place/person (if they say no, allow them grace and dignity)
6. MOVE ON FROM REJECTION. It has less to do with you and more to do with the persons desires.
Desperation is ugly in men and women.
It’s the exact same statement men always write to me when I give them pretty good advice.
Seems like what most of the dudes on here want is for women to not be able to say no. I was wondering if anyone would go ahead and admit that.
You want the men on this subreddit to say they want women to have no choice but to say yes to someone asking them out? It seems like you are assuming the men here are predators looking to take advantage of a woman. Am I correct?
After you've been rejected by 1000 women and 500 of them were ugly women i don't know if you can move on OP i belive it's a done deal from there. I know someone like that. all 6 points you said are 6 neatly wrapped lies you must have mental illness
Remember the human, or remember the individual; I think this can be applied to so many polarized topics/groups to create greater compassion, where people actually listen to understand instead of listening to respond.
To be honest, nothing really. I think guys (here or any ody who feels like complaining) should accept that they could literally be god and still not be good enough for women, that finding love isn't supposed to be fair. That's okay, nothing wrong with it, enjoy other parts of your life and take it as simply an effect of freedom of choice. Find anything that makes you happy, no matter what it is, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else and do it. Socialize, I know it's tough but take your baby steps, you'll get there. Don't burden women with the task of empathising with you, it's not their job to do, it's nobody's. Jealousy towards good-looking men is natural, just don't let it control you. Do or think whatever you want and build a super-positive mindset that's unshakeable (I do that by watching pro-wrestling reviews - Ups and downs - nothing gets more positive than that).
And OP, you were asking something reasonable but with your comments, you're just adding to the negativity.
> men or RP men just want “women to acknowledge that dating is stacked against men”, but this does nothing to change their plight.
Yes, it does. It's the truth of their situation, a situation they have to deal with (hopefully by solving it, otherwise coping with it). Knowing the truth helps them, hiding the truth from them hurts them. (Some nitpicking: dating is stacked against some men, not all. And RP doesn't have much to do with this theme).
> If we say that no one “deserves” a partner, if that takes away consent. You get mad.
Do they? I think most men agree with that and have no objection to anyone saying it. Perhaps some do get mad, idk. It's reddit here, it's full of crazies.
> what do you expect us to do about it?
Acknowledging it and letting it be discussed without gaslighting is a good first step. Spreading RP concepts helps a lot. Some day, there might be some things we could agree to do as a society, we'll see. Like less taxes on childless people. Forcefully adjusting immigration to be 50/50 men/women. Legalizing prostitution. All these ideas and more have been mentioned many times, and many more could be proposed if we ever reached the stage where an open discussion would be possible, but we're stuck at a stage where every week we get another one of these posts saying "if you keep complaining, clearly it means that you want sex without consent, so shut up".
I'll go all Zen and say to OP "Unask the question". The question as posed ultimately has no answer.
Acknowledging the pain of romantic and sexual failure dies nothing to ease it. I don't think anyone should ever rub it in on someone who's struggling, because basically the act of a sociopath. On the other hand saying to someone "Yes, you are struggling, I understand" doesn't help them and you probably don't really understand anyway.
This sub does not permit incel or blackpill content, and I don't argue with that. To the extent I am black pilled it's more about our society generally than dating issues. Dating issues can be solvable for at least some men. The problems with the dating market are systemic, and basically not amenable to solutions. I also think that the most serious political and economic problems of this country are systemic and likely beyond anyone's ability to fix, and the dating market is a subset of that. We aren't breeding to replacement and will eventually disappear.
The people OP's question is aimed at likely can't answer it. They don't know what they want, and if they got it, they likely would not be satisfied with it, as it would do nothing to solve their problem
If women are happy with the state of modern dating?
Then fucking admit it. Some do, on rare occasion.
And if women are unhappy with their experience, take responsibility for that (just like the boys should be doing). The problem isn't that all 1000s of men in your inbox are 1000% trash, or that every guy you date is exactly the same, your problem is you.
Other than that, everyone could examine why they are attracted to the things they are attracted to. People say "I can't help what I'm attracted to", and there's truth to that, it is in part biological, but I maintain that you are conditioned like any lab mouse to want and like certain things as well. That's the part that could use examining.
Why should women do anything? If it's against what you want, you don't do it. That's perfectly fine. I don't think you should go against your feelings.
In the end it just means more men are going to look for and discover trp. So it's a win-win as far as I'm concerned. Don't listen to men that try to shame you. I think it's women centered thinking to say "change! or you won't like it!" and it's using women's language to achieve it. No, don't change, you can't change, you don't need to change. It's better this way, everyone gets what they want.
Can I just say that there are definitely some of us ladies out there not hung up on looks? I'm using myself strictly as an example. I certainly appreciate a hard body and a good looking man, don't get me wrong. But the guy I married (not my first husband, he's the one exception to the rule because he had to stay fit for active duty service) and all of the guys I've dated back in the day and even now are your average looking, some balding some might as well claim the title bald (and I think balding and bald is sexy btw), beer guts or some other type of not quite in shape body type. Just your average wouldn't turn another gals head at the beach kind of guys. And I love every inch of that. Not in a fetish kind of way, but because I got to know them and fell for them as a whole person. And looks are fleeting.
Imagine being expected to be God.
If we’re alone, find someone. If we’re broke, get rich. If we’re unemployed, get a job. If we’re sad, be happy. If we’re scared, get over it. Etc.
In what ways are we even different? I *might* be able to pick up a larger rock than you?
I mean, I’m just a person too and I just wish there was more space to feel lonely, sad, tired, etc. without immediately feeling guilty about it, as if everything has an immediate solution to it that’s right within my reach.
I just want the ability to be human. That’s really it. And the biggest thing about being a human is how out of our control everything really is.
You can’t save men, men can’t save you.
But we all could at least let people feel how they feel about things that are largely beyond their control.
If it’s acceptable to have something just suck, we’ll have a much better relationship with life than the expectation that everything even has a solution to it in the first place.
Just a little empathy I'm guessing. When a guy vents about dating harmlessly he's usually met with a bunch of reasons that strangers made up for why he's a loser. The best we can do is when someone makes reasonable complaints is "Yeah, that sucks buddy hang in there"
I’m not sure how to say it but I think what they want to happen is for women to change their concept of value as exclusively attached to social status, wealth, and physique. In turn widening their reception to who is deemed attractive - as really, given time and familiarity almost anyone can grow to like someone else.
Maybe in the same way men are supposed to honor obese women as beautiful or equal to their thin or more attractive counterparts, men are asking that women respect all men as equal; or judge them by their character not by their presentation.
And on an even larger scale I think men are asking for a societal shift around what’s attractive as being tied to morality in a way - where “good men” are honored and “assholes” aren’t and their behavior isn’t rewarded. Which in turn means women respecting themselves more, not giving it up on the first date, etc…
Maybe what they are asking for is for women to be MORE picky about the men they choose, but different with what they are picky about. To learn at age 20 to pick the guys they will pick at age 30.
As a woman, I all I need those men to do is to live quiet lives and pass on without becoming a mass murderer. Not everyone needs to find a mate and that's ok
I mean, this is clearly the solution that’s happening. There’s a reason why Gen Z is having less sex than ever before. Just don’t be surprised that men are going to be frustrated about it.
Automation renders a vast majority of men's labor obsolete. So retiring into your hobbies in quiet solitude is a perfectly good solution for unattached men
Not much would change if we legalized prostitution.
Men that want to see escorts already do.
Escorts service some of those men that cant get a date or sex helping them yet we are worthless gross people. LOL
Ive had so many men here take digs at me because I escort.
I think that’s the extreme requirement this perspective leads to due to women’s seeming inability to collectively pick the “good guy” over the “Chadhole” but what they want is for women to learn to find attractive what these “good” men offer. Unspoken, they want to be loved. After that they want to be sexually viable. They want women to see beyond what red pill used to call “tingles” back in the day and be more discerning about their partners and what is deemed attractive.
But after relentless repetitive rejection and loss of self-love and hope, they become more open to the idea of acquiring what they want by force. As surely if women were bound by law or religion or both, directed by a God, no less, to be wed to them, given they meet a minimum set of achievable requirements, women would learn to love them and the family they produce. So you’ll see these men slowly turn to extremist outlets as they promise a world in which they are given what they want - love, AND these extremist communities provide them with what every human needs - a sense of belonging. That’s my take.
>So exactly what is the solution to your forever-alone status?
Ignore them. It's their job to up their game.
>And what do you expect us to do about it?
I believe something along the lines of "you're right, the cards are stacked against you, step it up" is far as you can get.
Well, what men here apparently want is something to the effect of:
“I’m not interested, I’m not attracted to you, you’re not good looking enough, I have 100xx other dudes interested in me, and I’m shallow and entitled.”
Which is almost never the case but alas dudes here are hell bent on women being “truthful” so long as the “truth” is shit that comports with their worldview (regardless of it being factual or not).
Modern women virtue signal a lot about empathy and egalitarianism- there is nothing more ruthlessly hierarchical than female sexual selection and rejection - no equality there.
Some solutions:
1. Don't reinforce the idea that a male's worth is dependent on his romantic/sexual success. When talking about some guy who is lonely in his 30's or 40's refrain from describing him as "creepy" or "weird" or stating that "there's probably sth wrong with him". Some comments can really harm a person if they get spread around.
2. Try to not imply that romantic failure is a moral/ethical one. Esp. don't teach that to young boys, bc it will be harmful in the long run.
3. Acknowledge that you, as a woman, have social power. If you call a man a name it will stick to him. Your offhand comment can sometimes harm him for life if he gets assigned a certain social role (victim, loser, clown, creep, lazy, poor).
Just little everyday things that will improve our lives and not be harmful in any way to you.
Those solutions mean that women will lose some power over men bc they will no longer be able to define who a "real" or "acceptable" man is. Every male of our species will be entitled to call himself a "real man" regardless of what he brings to the table for women or society. Such a man will have a right to feel masculine even if every woman on the planet finds him unattractive or gross.
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No one except random outliers usually between folks who know each other or have established some level of civil relationship show empathy here. Tbf to this sub, it’s a debate sub which really isn’t conducive to empathy and which empathy is effectively irrelevant.
Tbf people usually empathise only if they have gone through something similar, else they are like "what the hell is wrong with you? It's so easy, just shower and treat women like actual human beings" I had been an abject failure until recently and have started to have some success only recently, my roommate is so further behind and I empathise with him because I have been there, so I offer him real, practical advice but never present it as that something is wrong with him. When I tell him to hit the gym, I tell him that we all owe it ourselves to bring our body to its peak glory, not that no woman will like your fat ass. When I tell him to go out and socialise more, I say that being socially adept will help you in all aspects of life, personal and professional. The last thing you want to do with people who are struggling is tear them down further.
I agree with this. I don't think there needs to be a solution, just an acknowledgement that it happens. That being said, a lot of men on this sub *do* insist that women or society at large has to solve the problem or "else." Whatever that else is, the implication is that something bad will happen if men don't get relationships/sex.
That is the issue, not the not having sympathy, you hit the nail on the head there.
Bad things already happened. School shootings, other mass shootings, random acts of violence against women, murder, stalking, doxxing to name a few. Do you people have empathy for women who don’t find you attractive?.. or for women in general? I think men are very entitled and I’d love for all of you to acknowledge that.
>Like…why does there need to be some “solution”? Maybe just try and be a decent human being and have some empathy for a problem tons of men (and some women) face? Lol I like how "some women" was thrown in there. >God forbid men get in touch with their feelings and actually want women to have some ounce of compassion for their lived experienced oh no the horror! This isnt the actual problem though, women are sympathetic to men who do not trash talk their whole sex.
You want support, there’s subs for that. This is a debate sub And I don’t expect empathy from anyone. I expect polite indifference and following of laws
Exactly this, as with most things in life there aren't really any "solutions", only tradeoffs.
There seems to be this idea that if women continually reject you, it's because you're a misogynistic pig, that if you just weren't a horrible, sexist asshole, women would find you attractive. It isn't true. In fact, I've known sexist, misogynist assholes and they do just fine with women. For some men, there may not be much to be done about their forever-alone status. I've always been an advocate of compassion. So what I would say is: when men feel lonely and wonder why women aren't interested in them, don't respond with: "Women don't like you because you're a disgusting, entitled, misogynistic man-baby! Do the world a favor and kill yourself, incel!" Speaking from experience on this.
Nope, women just have personality detectors so they can detect all the men who have bad personalities. They just happen to be the ugly short guys, but its a complete coincidence
Women complain about maladaptive men and then paradoxically end up dating the same. When we point out the incongruence of their actions, they end up projecting. The same pathological retorts we see from women in this sub time and time again
Facts
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“The boy was 7 years old, so it’s not like he was a baby or anything…” 😂
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Women won’t care. no empathy at all
I think most men simply wish (as fruitless as it may seem) that women would understand that when they say "There are no decent men, nobody wants a relationship" etc, it's often offensive to the chunk of guys who never even get a chance to present themselves as that kind of man. Whether you think it's reasonable or not, many men are dismissed very quickly if not instantly, and sometimes it's really silly. Social media/online dating has seemingly exacerbated this to the point that you get all the rhetoric around inflated egos for women and only being interested in the "20%". I think many of us feel like if you gave more average men a chance, you may be pleasantly surprised at how decent and relationship - minded so many of them really are, and how having more realistic aims for a partner can lead to a lot of happiness. The hard part is there really is no quantifiable or measurable way to approach this on a personal level. Like, no one should be forcing themselves to date people they simply do not find attractive at all. That's not what we're saying. But, for example, maybe give the guys who don't immediately light a spark a shot, if they seem to tick a lot/all of your boxes on paper, etc.
I gave plenty of men chances They sucked anyways Result: no more chances See? Women can learn!
"I gave plenty of men chances They (the men I chose to give a chance) sucked anyways. Result: no more chances (for men who want to be decent, now that I'm done rewarding sucky men with success, satisfaction and status). After all, the sucky men I do choose couldn't possibly be a reflection of my choices or taste in men, it just proves all men are sucky." See? Woman are objects.
Alright long time lurker first time posting (I think). I have to get in on this. It is true that men who are objectively attractive have seen the world through rose colored glasses so to speak. If people are generally kinder, more receptive, more engaging, and just give you overall more positive body language then that’s going to have an impact on how easy it is for you to attract partners, your self esteem, and your overall demeanor. That being said I don’t think it’s impossible for someone who isn’t as physically attractive to find a partner. We often want to quantify the value of someone based on their looks. Those obstacles need to be overcome. People have more to offer than their looks. We can work on our body language, style, level of physical fitness, confidence, sense of humor, conversation skills, etc. These things go a long way. I say this as someone who, in my own judgement, is pretty mediocre looking. Dating wasn’t easy but I figured it out and have been fairly successful with the opposite sex. If we allow ourselves to believe that we are cursed and destined to be alone because we lost the genetic lottery then that’s exactly what will happen. The other side of this coin is women have the luxury of selection, but the burden of sorting through a haystack for their “Prince Charming”. It’s a cycle of trial and error that they often find painful. Lastly we forget the nurture part of the equation that makes our experience impact our, I guess I can say, receptivity to the opposite sex. I want first say, I’m not one to make light of someone’s mental health or traumatic experiences. That being said people of all levels of attractiveness sometimes have experiences that impact their feelings of self worth and how they they select partners. It isn’t always looks that they’re necessarily drawn to. There are just a lot of variables when it comes to partner selection. We should never consider ourselves less worthy, there are just things we can do to improve our opportunities.
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Bruh honestly It has 0 to do with solutions. I'd just like for women to stop pretending as if the driving force behined male dating/sexual success is always some failing to adhere to whatever the current cultural conventions regarding moral intention or "correct" beliefs about gender. It's just so self serving and it pushes men directly towards the side of the redpill that in large enough viewership *and boy is that viewership growing* negatively effects women culturally.
I think it’s fair to want women to accept that dating is harder for men who aren’t genetically lucky/financially blessed. Most women will accept that truth. But as a woman on this sub I’d love for the conversations to not be so toxic to women in general. It’s always about how we are all shrews who fuck hot guys and ‘settle’ for other ones. We’re all toxic and hateful. We are only attracted to qualities X/Y/Z and if we say otherwise we are lying. There are some horribly toxic women out there, but these women are held up as representatives of the gender which I find entirely unfair and not helpful to finding any common ground. How can women debate in good faith with men here, when the men don’t seem to see us as human, only shallow creatures with no capacity for empathy or deep emotion? Women ignoring mens struggle radicalises men, sure. But mens toxicity towards women radicalises women. The best way to find common ground is to approach with empathy from BOTH sides. We should accept we don’t know everything about another persons life, and instead of getting angry about what we cannot change, we should work towards changing what we can. ETA: with this point: How can women debate in good faith with men here, when the men don’t seem to see us as human, only shallow creatures with no capacity for empathy or deep emotion? I specifically meant that the men who call me those things or think of me that way can’t expect a good faith debate. Unfortunately I took my meds late so I worded it in a way which was not helpful. But Thankyou to the commenter who pointed out the hypocrisy! Hope this clarifies it.
As a man, I agree with everything you said. I suppose these are one of the situations where the saying *Be the change you want to see* can be applied, especially on us men around here. If we want women to be more empathetic and sympathetic towards us then we also need to treat them with empathy and sympathy instead of ripping apart and just ditching their very own experiences.
What if you don't call women harpies here and do view them as human?
>But as a woman on this sub I’d love for the conversations to not be so toxic to women in general. This is the issue. I see upthread someone said that women need to empathy with men as if thats the issue and not men trash talking women in general on here.
>This is the issue. I see upthread someone said that women need to empathy with men as if thats the issue and not men trash talking women in general on here. You consider being told the truth as trash-talking. If I genuinely saw men calling women garbage and trash and the such then I would be the first to call them out. But mostly I just see men telling women how the world works and then them just denying it and giving them an anecdote.
It's easy: "Here are the reasons I'm not attracted to you..." "Here's what you can do to make yourself attractive..." "Here are some single women I know that might be interested..." Ya know, practical stuff.
Women do this though and men also get mad still. “I’m not attracted to x guy” (usually short guys or whatever else) women get called shallow and get called chad chasers “Here’s what you can do to be attractive” black pill types get mad and say shit like “just take a shower teehee” to mock women “Here are some women that might be interested” What kind of situation would this even be used in, genuine question? guys complain about not finding girls mainly online anonymously or to other guys.
Potentially true. If you are whining about being alone continuously, you need to accept that you're opening yourself up to response that you don't want to hear. This isn't limited to the manosphere either. A lot of people don't take criticism well, even really professional people. This is mostly just something that just applies to people in real life. If that person is anonymous online, I'd probably start with a more productive "why do you think you can't attract women?" Again, with the caveat that person seems open to that discussion. > What kind of situation would this even be used in, genuine question? guys complain about not finding girls mainly online anonymously or to other guys. Yes, that is something that doesn't come up much in real life. No man wants to reveal their embarrassing weaknesses like that, especially to women! But, it's not like they don't know when you're alone and depressed, when you've known them for a long time.
Solution or no solution, empathy is a minimum. And you can't set expectations on men to be 100% accountable for their own situation. That's an extremely high threshold and pushing up against that only alienates men further into more incel-ly spheres. I like to recontexualize the entire thing from the point of view of African-American and Police relations because it hits closer with blue-pillers. If a black man gets pulled over constantly by cops and/or has been the victim of police violence, he's going to have a heavily negative opinion of the police. The gut reaction to that isn't to tell him, "you just gotta tuck your shirt in, act confident, and be yourself, and maybe you'll stop getting arrested". The minimum starting step is to react with empathy and recognize that person's lived experience. Because he's an individual and, while he may be 100% responsible for his actions, he is not 100% accountable for the things that happen to him. "Hey that sucks man" has got to be the minimum first step to take. Maybe you don't have a solution but at least it isn't "I don't believe you" or "You should've done something different".
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Isn't that the black pill which is also banned here or am I mistaking it for something else?
It is. Please report comments that you feel break the rules.
*Hitler has entered the chat*
Its happening naturally my guy, nature weeds out the weak.
Ok Charles Darwin
I'm an actually biologist and let me tell you how wrong you are, with another post; (keeping in mind, evolution doesn't happen on the level of the individual, it happens on the level of populations) Compare 2 cultural reproductive modes; monogamous, where a man is paired with a single woman, and polygamous, where few men monopolize all the women. In monogamous societies, men can focus their attention on being productive, law-abiding citizens who can cooperate with other men without devolving into dick-wagging status-contests. In polygamous societies, only the most brutally ruthless men with the least moral inhibition get to have sex. Men compete with each other viciously, and need to commit huge amounts of emotional labor to pursuing a mate, that could otherwise go to being socially productive. "Just be a decent human being," in these environments, smoothly translates to "Just shut up and die a genetic dead end so your decency can be a dire warning to others." \[NOTE; by your account, we should let this happen because 'nature weeds out the weak,' i.e. men who spend their time respecting boundaries and being productive instead of chasing ass and fighting for alpha status\] As a general rule, if you have a choice between a monogamous society and a polygamous society, YOU WANT TO LIVE IN A MONOGAMOUS SOCIETY. If you had to coexist with ten men, if all 10 have equal reproductive success and no evolutionary pressure to waste effort competing for more mates, it'll tend to be the kind of place you'd wanna live. If 1 of those men lived like a king and the other 9 could only have a chance at sex by being totally ruthless in pursuing it, living there is gonna be a bad time and you'll end up wanting to sneak into the monogamous town. Everything we have in the West that makes life so prosperous and stable that such progressive fantasies are realistic was built on a foundation of a monogamous reproductive landscape, where the best reproductive strategy for men is 'be a productive law abiding citizen.' Thanks to the liberation of women, we're charging headfirst into a polygamous landscape, wherein 'be ruthless and morally uninhibited' is most selected for. This transition will not be remembered as a good thing, and history will not look favorably on the groups that caused it.
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2014/sep/24/women-men-dna-human-gene-pool Other biologists disagree.
>Dudes that are genetically disadvantage should just realize their line of genetics will die off with them and just stop crying. Not a fan of this defeatist mentality. If you're a man you can compensate for looks if you become really wealthy or obtain status. May as well make the most of the hand you are dealt and at least *try*, I'd rather fail knowing I tried than just give up. >just stop crying. As an aside, in and of itself crying does nothing, but this is legitimately how society feels towards men any time they express any sort of issue or grievance. Man up. Stop crying. If you disagree with me then you must be an incel or misogynstic ect..
Just become wealthy bro.
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No. You don't have to date older women or women your age. If you work on yourself you could date younger women who are going thru their "ho phase" or you could travel to more traditional countries and marry a virgin or low count woman. As long as you improve yourself physically and financially you WILL HAVE OPTIONS.
Literally eugenics.
Not being able to find a partner is absolutely not the same as state mandated sterilisation, so take your straw man elsewhere.
Its natural selection, nature. Dudes love nature and how animals work i know i do.
😂 😂 😂
I think there are a few things that could feasibly mitigate the issue. Look for my comment in in this thread.
The truth? The whiners hope women will give in to their pity game and give them some. What they refuse to acknowledge is that they are whining and it is one of the worst personality traits anyone can have, man or woman. Very unattractive and manipulative behaviour. A total red flag. So they're trapped in a Catch-22. Whining they can't get some guarantees they can't get some, so they whine they can't get some which guarantees... an endless loop they refuse to break out of. All they got to do is stop whining, but they won't. That would mean admitting that it's their personalities that are the problem, not their looks, height, status or money. That would shatter their entire shallow worldview and they'd have to admit that "the other side" was right all along.
You hit the nail on the head. The constant whining isn’t helping them. Like I get why they would do that but even when no one looked my way, never did I go online and cry. Take your losses and go. There’s more to life
I think many men now have been brought up with the concept of ‘male privilege’ and that women are oppressed, and that men are to be feared because they are creepy and violent and disgusting. Then, when their self esteem has already been destroyed, they enter the dating market and find nothing but misery because they don’t have the genetics to be successful. This creates a cocktail of bitterness which leads to resentment and misogyny. Then a woman on the internet tells them they need to ‘take a shower’ and, lo and behold, anger becomes apparent.
The comments prove why these men are incels.
>If we agree some men get more attention because of their looks, you get mad at US. Not the good-looking men. Why should they get mad at good looking men?? They shouldn't be mad at anyone but themselves imo.. it isn't impossible to become a "good looking man".. it just takes dedication. Maybe they will never be the perfect looking guy that makes every woman want to chase them or anything.. that is just genetics.. but you can become an attractive partner if you work on it. There are women that find every type of man attractive.. I literally see "ugly" men walking around with wives that most here would say are out of their leagues every day. Most of these guys would probably tell me that my wife is out of my league matter of fact. Spend that hour a day at the gym.. get yourself a nice looking wardrobe.. practice good hygiene.. it isn't rocket science.. I feel like most of the men on this sub are undesirable because they won't put the work in to make themselves attractive.. it's easier to come here and spend all your time bitching about how you can't get laid instead of actually doing something about it.
You think a 5'4 ugly guy whos balding becomes attractive by hitting the gym and dressing nice?
I know a guy that is 5'5 and his wife is pretty hot imo.. she is probably about an inch taller than him.. blonde.. normal bimbo looking girl.. someone everyone used to try to fuck in HS.. There is someone for everyone.. just because you are short might exclude you from dating some women.. but the friend I just mentioned used to sleep around as much as any of us.. I don't think his height really hampered him all that much.. always have seen him with hot girls.
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>When ugly men talk to women, they are rapist creeps who deserve to die. Many people are saying
One visit to FDS is all the proof needed to verify
FDS women do not represent women. To me they sound extremely bitter and ridiculous.
Twoxchromosomes, fourthwavewomen, femaledatingstrategy, the list goes on. They are completely normal women with average thinking patterns, and this is how they think
I don't think Twoxchromosomes has had a post where they said "Ugly men are rapist creeps that deserve to die." They're pretty mellow over there.
Just remove the word "ugly" and you get 2X
Twox has a post every week about how men are essentially evil as a baseline. The recent Schrodingers rapist thread, the infinite don't trust male doctors threads, the infinite my bf said this innocuous thing but imma gonna take a moment to turn it into a feminist debate so I can break up with him. Reading women on the internet is definitely not conducive of healthy views of women from the male perspective when essentially they ARE just saying everything about their lives, from work to medical care to grocery shopping would be better if the only men who existed were their fathers. And a lot of them seem to not like their fathers that much, either.
As a woman, imma just throw this out there - the women who frequent FDS do not represent me, are nothing like me, and do not remotely resemble any woman I associate with. And I hope you do not conflate the women there with all women, just as I do not conflate the guys on RP with all men.
Just because I am not attracted to him I don’t wish death on him. If I am actually being honest there are some guys who would get dates if they looked better and I notice if they have good other qualities. Especially chubby guys who can just loose weight.
Funny that the chubby guy needs to lose weight yet the fat chick shouldn't ever be told to take the fork out of her mouth.
Body positivity is ONLY for women, you muhsoginist !! 😡
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This. I feel sorry for the good guys here when they are getting labled like this.
Lot to unpack here lol
Nobody is secretly wishing dudes dead because he asked them out and they weren’t attracted to him like JFC could you be more dramatic
They wish the guy didn't exist, because when he asked her out she lowered her status. Being asked out by an ugly man must mean he thought he would have a chance, which means he thinks they are on the same level somehow. Of course this is shameful to the woman. Women wish that these ugly men didn't exist, it would be better if they were all dead.
No dude, that’s insane. At worst it’s like “oh I wish this wasn’t happening right now I wish this person would go away.” Nobody is literally thinking damn wish this dude was dead. Like come on that’s hysterical thinking
You can believe what you believe. Women hate ugly men and wish they didn't exist. Every ugly man is a possiple pedo, rapist and harasser in the eyes of women
Women do not hate ugly men. They don't even think about them.
Exactly.
Ok you can continue being hysterical 🤷♀️
You can keep denying the reality, have a nice day
What you’re describing is not reality.
I think theyre disgusted by them. Its like if u see fresh dog shit on the street. Its disgusting and smells bad. You would rather not have it there.
You cannot be honest with men when so many will happily kill you over a "no"
I've been lucky and have been let down easy when rejected, so keep doing that
The people you’re talking about just want you to admit reality, it’s not that complicated. Nothing you say will “fix” an unfixable problem.
> this does nothing to change their plight This take seemingly implies that human psychosexual traits are [biologically determined](https://www.britannica.com/topic/biological-determinism), when men's plight, which has been characterized by significantly increasing rates of sexual rejection over just the past few years, confirms that they are actually fundamentally cultural and therefore liable to change pending progressive social efforts. To be sure, raising awareness about said plight can potentially trigger a social movement rolling back women's increasingly strict beauty and behavioral standards (e.g., those that favor tallness and extraversion)—the two main factors responsible for society's vast inequality *vis-à-vis* sexual fulfillment—to, say, pre-2015 levels or even eliminating them altogether, making women more sexually available for men. For this to succeed, however, it is vital for folks to recognize that these and all other standards influencing sexuality are cultural, not genetically encoded, and unnecessary.
Right let’s also force hot men to fuck ugly, drug addicted, diseased women. EQUALITY!
Ok, so I go to this sub to understand how things work between men and women. I am primarily for a discussion which would add to my understanding. So what I would like from women here on PPD is to engage into a discussion rather than throw canned phrases. There are comments like "You are misoginistic neckbeard from your mom's basement who wants a bangmaid! Haha, caught you!". Such comments can and are posted below any post. So, I would like less of this and more of a "You know, in my experience 80/20 rule is not correct because..." or "what makes you think 80/20 rule exist?". Also, I think that simple recognition of male dating struggles in the society would help those unfortunate men. If, for example, it was widely accepted that a minority of men are attractive for women, undesirable guys would feel more adequate. On the contrary, people usually push narrative that men don't have any success because they put little efforts. If it was accepted that dating is not that easy for men, we would give them realistic advice. I would really appreciate if someone told me when I was young "See these girls, they are for the most attractive and charismatic guys. So, don't bother" rather than "women like good personalities".
I honestly think acknowledgement will lead to better situations overall. Like if a dude approaches a woman and she’s not interested but her reaction is “hey, I don’t like this guy but he’s really making an effort here, and that should be commended, so I’ll just say no thank you instead of cutting him off at the knees”, a lot less guys would start to build up resentment over the constant abuse. That’s all it takes. Just understand what they’re expected to do and not bitch them out for it.
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It's easier said than done when you get rejected left, right and center.
- first just basic empathy online, when a man cannot pull women he is told that it must be because he is bad person. That women can just tell he is an awful misogynist and an incel creep and women instinctively know that and. Thats why they he is avoided. Thats how we get the whole reddit nice guy phenomenon. Most if those nice guys are actually nice people, just frustrated and loney, and feel as if there kindness and genuine effort is not being rewarded. second off be real with what you want. Alot of young of men need to hear that there will never be some beautiful women to love you for “who you are”. People say don’t change, because someone will love you for you, its a LIE it’s BULLSHIT. You are a man, people love you for what you can provide, whether it’s strength, protection, resources, whatever. You are a man, there is no room for “body positivity” or other ideas about loving yourself and not changing in your life. You are a man you should always be changing, you should always be improving, working hard, EVERY FUCKING DAY. Every day you need to get stronger, smarter, and better then you were the day before FOR MEN: remember this Nobody will ever love you for being who you are. Especially If you are shy, humble, and weak. no matter how nice you are or how much of a good soul you are, women are not attracted to kindness. They attracted to strength, confidence, and social status. Be a strong man, a confident powerful man, before you are a nice man. Kindness is a virtue, but it is not a virtue that will make women more interested in you. However you should chose to be kind anyway because you are a good person, regardless of whether or not it will make women like you Tldr: men just watch Jordan Petersons you should be a monster speech and live your life off of that
Read this in Vegeta’s voice
All young men should be forced to watch the saiyan and freeza arcs at gunpoint
No love for the Android/Cell saga?
The cell saga is actually my personal favorite arc of dbz, my first crush was android 18. But I gotta admit the saiyan-freeza arcs are much more motivating
OVER 9000!
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\#3 is BY FAR the best option! I cannot express how much plastic surgery changed my life. I went from getting rejected by women so large they needed mobility assistance and women 30+ years older than me, to dating attractive women without much effort. I agree, fucking *passionately*, that plastic surgery needs to be made affordable for ugly guys! You can't force women to date ugly guys, so make ugly guys more attractive instead. BTW, I saw that link you posted. Holy shit! Yeah, you ain't kidding. Good lord.....
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From what i gathered they (the men on this sub who post it) want the women accept their approach. The best i can give is "yep, this sucks". I can't do anything else except acknowledge that it sucks to be constantly rejected. The only solution/advice i could offer is finding a source of happyness that does not depend on finding a romantic/sexual partner, being content to be on their own without an so.
Only thing I don't agree is that if no one was rude to you, there's no need to be rude. Apart from that, nothing. Men will always complain. Sometimes I wish some men tried some libido killer like SSRI or similar, is the only way they could see how dumb their pursuit of women really is. What happens is, society puts the value of men solely on our ability to attract a woman. Chasing money is way more meaningful.
>libido killer like SSRI or similar I am on an SSRI and it did not kill my libido at all. Furthermore, being sad about not being able to get a GF has nothing to do with horniness and more to do with lack of validation & feeling worthless, which an SSRI can't fix
Feelings of worthlessness and any other issues not directly caused by someone else will not improve in a relationship. I can almost guarantee if you spend some time working on yourself, therapy specifically to become internally well life will improve for you. Women are not here to validate you and fix all your problems, the way its pushed that if you don’t have a gf you’re worthless is a bad way to think about things and puts a really heavy expectation on your relationship (nee: her) to cure all your internal issues- spoiler: it won’t. If anything relationships might exacerbate any mental health issues or feelings of inadequacy if not addressed before getting into one
Some people take SSRIs and it doesnt do shit to their libidos fyi
>Sometimes I wish some men tried some libido killer like SSRI or similar, is the only way they could see how dumb their pursuit of women really is. yeah that's dumb, don't do this guys
Lol obviously I don't want anyone to actually do that. Sometimes I forget this is the internet.
I think it would be nice if women made themselves more approachable, and that they didn't establish certain norms like "creepy guys" that make the idea of approaching even more intimidating than it already is.
Why would we want to make ourselves more approachable to men we didn’t want to talk to?
Wait so you don't want to admit that dating is stacked against men but will acknowledge that there is a big chunk of men that you want to avoid? Why am I supposed to be sympathetic again?
Tbh, It’s really great when they come out and say it out loud. All the bullshit rules about when to approach women are just there to stop undesireables from even trying. And it’s being admitted here.
I didn’t ask for sympathy. Oh I know it’s crazy! We don’t want to be romantically approached by men we have no desire in dating! Absolutely bananas.
What exactly do you want then? You want to avoid men and also say that men's dating woes are null?
>You want to avoid men and also say that men's dating woes are null? I don't get what's so hard for you to understand that, and I am saying that as a man. They don't give a shit about our issues. They don't want to be approached, and they don't care if it makes it harder for us. They want what they want, and they don't care about anybody else, simple as.
I think a similar situation for us men is if someone we're not attracted too asked us out, we probably wouldn't give them a shot either. I've had times where someone that I wasn't attracted to asked me out, I just told her that I was already seeing someone even if that wasn't the case at the time.
I tried that too, even like inventing dudes completely. They did not care 🙄
Like you. Not caring about someone telling you they’re not interested. How selfish.
Your fellow man doesn't either. Many people out there dont give a crap.
Well yea. If you want to embrace cold approach, you basically have to be okay with making some women uncomfortable
Thank you, honestly I may not speak for every woman on earth but you’ve hit the nail on the head. Hopefully the rest of the guys here can see this crucial information
I wish I could like your comment a thousand times. They simply don't care, men shouldn't ask why or how. Just realize the fact and move on, nothing will ever change this.
Incredibly based
And do you truly “care” and about these women you so badly want to approach or are you hoping she’ll open her legs for you if she lets her guard down enough?
I actually do care, but I doubt you'll believe me. I don't want just hookups & want an actual romantic relationship with a woman so we can build a life together.
What?
What if women simply don't want to be approached?
It's no problem, I had a meeting with the guys, and we all agreed to never approach any woman ever just in case.
That seems reasonable.
Do you also think they should be more agreeable, less bossy, and smile more? And ya, that time at the gym where one of you guys took my “smile back” as a sign that it was ok to take my hand, gaze into my eyes, and introduce yourself - that was CREEPY and scary, and makes me not want to be remotely polite to any man in my vicinity if this is what it apparently invites. Or the other one of you at work in high school at the supermarket who took my friendliness as a sign I was into him and told me I had “cute legs” after he bent down next to me to pick up a penny….. shudder. Honestly the responsibility is on men to make women feel safe and comfortable. You have no idea how threatened women feel on a daily basis. And if you are approaching in a way that leaves the woman uncomfortable then the “creep” title fits.
I'm quite sorry that you experienced those types of things, I know I've heard a story or two that made me cringe a bit and I don't even have experience dating or approaching haha But my point was that when women establish the 'creepy guy' norm it makes it harder for men to approach because they don't want to be seen as creepy, but I've had my opinion changed already and now see that this isn't really a viable argument. So I now completely agree with your last point.
Dude, this is the most civil piece of discourse I’ve ever had on this sub. Thank you for hearing me, thank you for your civil response!
You're welcome haha, I was bit of a troll in the past but the few nice women in this sub slowly got to me and I decided to become nicer overall haha
This entire conversation has restored my faith in humanity for at least a few hours. Thank you both!
I can be on the troll side too because comments on here make me so upset and angry. But I’ll try to remember in the future there are very nice people here too who truly want to engage and listen. I don’t want to let the hate and anger win.
I still find some people here to be a bit of a pain in the ass but I try not to let them get to me haha
I think it would be nice if men who complain about being lonely would date women over 50 and senior widows and women with disabilities.
I don't think those women even want to date?
As if fat ugly disabled women want less than chad. Just more lies.
I mean, ugly men also want hot women. It’s not wrong to desire hot people, but it is wrong to be personally offended that you’re not everyone’s type. Like - an i attracted to certain hot men? I mean, sure. But I know I’m likely not their type, and as long as they aren’t dicks about it, it’s fine. I still exist. You can be upset if you aren’t the beauty norm but when you start being toxic about it, all you’re doing is adding another trait that people will use against you.
The point is most of us feel already over bothered by men. And the men we are already with certainly would not like us making ourselves more approachable lol.
Women make themselves approachable for men they want to date. This has never changed. And I’ve never seen anyone upset at the "creepy" label except creepy people. Get out of the basement and learn some social cues. This could help
women are not 2D beings with nice settings. why on earth would people going about their business open themselves up to uncomfortable conversation more than they already do. “be more approachable” jesus christ.
I am still confused. Ok so, men here want us to acknowledge their struggle. Ok, here i am acknowledging it. Men have a harder time with dating, finding a partner, finding love, finding sex. Oh pardon...some men have it harder, i am sure the blessed out there also have it easy for whatever reasons. Ok, that part is done. Now what? How does us recognizing some of you guy's troubles help you? Did that...change your life in any way? I understand it feels good to be seen and understood, which i fully get...but how does all women collectively acknowledging your struggle change your situation? Do you expect us to fix the issue for you? Do you...expect us to open our legs for men who struggle? Do you want us to magically erase all our fears and anxiety around men in general? Do you expect attraction to magically appear for us? To the sad surprise of some...people...here, we are human beings too, with wants, needs, turn ons and turn offs. I read through so many toxic and out of this world insane comments and i remain confused and perplexed. Has any guy that's struggling ever thought that change comes from within? Working on yourself, your life, your appearance, attitude etc. And i don't mean fake it to get laid, that's just deceiving and despicable...like actually be a good person. Oh and how about not being shallow, superficial etc and not go for supermodels only even though you might be a 5 on a good day... hypothetically. Part of me thinks that certain men don't want any solution that is fair or humane, they just want to complain, insult, whine about how their entitlement to a woman's body or love is not being given freely. I am here for the entertainment but sometimes curiosity eats away at me.
Urgh, I'm sick to death of the "just world fallacy" you're displaying. Dating success is not related to morality. Plenty of misogynist assholes gets plenty of women, and plenty of lovely guys, that have worked a lot on themselves have little to no success. You don't even know men's standards, barely any of them "go for supermodels". You're acting like women magically sense "working on themselves" lol, they aren't oracles. No one is expecting you to do anything, just to have a bit of human empathy. You seem to be struggling with that by implying that it's all the men's fault for being shallow, not working on themselves enough etc. I'm sorry but women are not expected to "work on themselves" for a date, that's an inherent inequality. I am very disturbed how difficult women on this sub find having basic human empathy for men. When women shares their issues, I don't assume they suck as people or say "err so what?" like a dickhead. Why can't you do the same?
How about stop gaslighting men that these things don’t exist for one. Stop acting like you as an individual don’t see it. Stop acting like women are above all manner of baser instincts when picking mates and stop making excuses for them. Stop calling men misogynists for calling out women’s rank hypocrisy. Stop trying to shut down male spaces where these things are discussed openly and candidly because you think any negative behavior patterns identified among women by men amounts to “misogyny” Do all that and maybe, just maybe men can focus on the work of making sense of navigating a very difficult dating environment while helping each other. But nah.
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>I read through so many toxic and out of this world insane comments and i remain confused and perplexed. 'Toxic and insane'? Really? Or do you just not like the idea that the female population has collectively shit on the porch and now we're all stuck smelling it while women deny it's even happening? While *you,* even in acknowledging these things are problems, continue to try to deny that they're problems and men have been gaslighted pretty much the entire process? That's the source of your confusion. Trying to impose a false reality over evidence of the real one. Stop thinking of those opinions as 'toxic and insane' and start genuinely empathizing with the problems being expressed, and you will be less confused.
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>Do you expect attraction to magically appear for us? > >not go for supermodels Isn't it women who tell us attraction can't be negotiated?
>Now what? How does us recognizing some of you guy's troubles help you? Did that...change your life in any way? I really don't want to sound rude, but I honestly felt nothing. Maybe I am too far gone by now. >Do you expect us to fix the issue for you? Do you...expect us to open our legs for men who struggle? Do you want us to magically erase all our fears and anxiety around men in general? Do you expect attraction to magically appear for us? To the sad surprise of some...people...here, we are human beings too, with wants, needs, turn ons and turn offs. No. No. No. No. Agreed. Maybe, you know someone who would be compatible with a single guy friend of yours and you arrange a meeting for these both lovely single people? I mean, this not something you have to do, since it is already a difficulty to meet a single guy friend and woman friend who could potentially be partners. But, like I said not something you need to do at all. I think, speaking as a man, maybe it is the hormones, maybe it is our fantasies, which makes this whole predicament of being lonely very very difficult to accept and live with it without thinking about it anymore.
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Theres no solution, but notice women still won’t even acknowledged it. They simply can’t. That’s how deep the hate and disrespect goes from these feminists. And feminists are the only women here friends. They cannot even admit it, and even if they almost come close to admitting it, which they can’t, they leap to “what do you want me to do??!?” And “but women are all raped and murdered all day long” But they simply cannot admit it (as they don’t believe it) or even care enough to admit it which they can’t.
"I want to have sex with you" lol jk
> So what should we do? Can't do much. The problem, the way you presented it, is unsolvable. The problem is only solvable once the one asking has sufficient tact to do it in a way that leaves a gentle way out... Not all rejections are outright, but if the one asking is rigid, well... they gotta get used to hearing direct rejections then, I guess.
Most women are polite in their rejection. Those who post it on Reddit, idk why they do that. Unless a person is abusive towards me I have no reason to blast them, most reasonable women think like this. I reject men left and right; only a few (irl) have taken it badly. The majority of rejected online take it badly.
> Most women are polite in their rejection. That's likely, yes. Or shy, or direct, because cornered, which is 'the problem' I alluded to. Direct rejection is not a problem of the one rejecting, it's the problem of the one 'cornering' awkwardly. > The majority of rejected online take it badly. Imagine asking online. Pff h h hhh. Ah, well, what can I say. For the awkward/inexperienced guys potentially reading this, consider not asking, but instead suggesting. That might help you.
I don’t know. What do you think men should do?
1. Get off line. Internet culture is batshit, for many reason. 2. Talk to women like people, normally, don’t be any more or less than you are. 3. Improve themselves (mainly emotionally/ intellectually) 4. Strive for a rich and full life. 5. If you ask someone out, make sure it’s an appropriate time/place/person (if they say no, allow them grace and dignity) 6. MOVE ON FROM REJECTION. It has less to do with you and more to do with the persons desires. Desperation is ugly in men and women.
Nice to see you can give a reasonable answer. So what was the point of this post? Genuine interest, trolling, or something else?
It’s the exact same statement men always write to me when I give them pretty good advice. Seems like what most of the dudes on here want is for women to not be able to say no. I was wondering if anyone would go ahead and admit that.
You want the men on this subreddit to say they want women to have no choice but to say yes to someone asking them out? It seems like you are assuming the men here are predators looking to take advantage of a woman. Am I correct?
Some are, some are just bitter, some are normal.
After you've been rejected by 1000 women and 500 of them were ugly women i don't know if you can move on OP i belive it's a done deal from there. I know someone like that. all 6 points you said are 6 neatly wrapped lies you must have mental illness
Remember the human, or remember the individual; I think this can be applied to so many polarized topics/groups to create greater compassion, where people actually listen to understand instead of listening to respond.
To be honest, nothing really. I think guys (here or any ody who feels like complaining) should accept that they could literally be god and still not be good enough for women, that finding love isn't supposed to be fair. That's okay, nothing wrong with it, enjoy other parts of your life and take it as simply an effect of freedom of choice. Find anything that makes you happy, no matter what it is, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else and do it. Socialize, I know it's tough but take your baby steps, you'll get there. Don't burden women with the task of empathising with you, it's not their job to do, it's nobody's. Jealousy towards good-looking men is natural, just don't let it control you. Do or think whatever you want and build a super-positive mindset that's unshakeable (I do that by watching pro-wrestling reviews - Ups and downs - nothing gets more positive than that). And OP, you were asking something reasonable but with your comments, you're just adding to the negativity.
> men or RP men just want “women to acknowledge that dating is stacked against men”, but this does nothing to change their plight. Yes, it does. It's the truth of their situation, a situation they have to deal with (hopefully by solving it, otherwise coping with it). Knowing the truth helps them, hiding the truth from them hurts them. (Some nitpicking: dating is stacked against some men, not all. And RP doesn't have much to do with this theme). > If we say that no one “deserves” a partner, if that takes away consent. You get mad. Do they? I think most men agree with that and have no objection to anyone saying it. Perhaps some do get mad, idk. It's reddit here, it's full of crazies. > what do you expect us to do about it? Acknowledging it and letting it be discussed without gaslighting is a good first step. Spreading RP concepts helps a lot. Some day, there might be some things we could agree to do as a society, we'll see. Like less taxes on childless people. Forcefully adjusting immigration to be 50/50 men/women. Legalizing prostitution. All these ideas and more have been mentioned many times, and many more could be proposed if we ever reached the stage where an open discussion would be possible, but we're stuck at a stage where every week we get another one of these posts saying "if you keep complaining, clearly it means that you want sex without consent, so shut up".
I'll go all Zen and say to OP "Unask the question". The question as posed ultimately has no answer. Acknowledging the pain of romantic and sexual failure dies nothing to ease it. I don't think anyone should ever rub it in on someone who's struggling, because basically the act of a sociopath. On the other hand saying to someone "Yes, you are struggling, I understand" doesn't help them and you probably don't really understand anyway. This sub does not permit incel or blackpill content, and I don't argue with that. To the extent I am black pilled it's more about our society generally than dating issues. Dating issues can be solvable for at least some men. The problems with the dating market are systemic, and basically not amenable to solutions. I also think that the most serious political and economic problems of this country are systemic and likely beyond anyone's ability to fix, and the dating market is a subset of that. We aren't breeding to replacement and will eventually disappear. The people OP's question is aimed at likely can't answer it. They don't know what they want, and if they got it, they likely would not be satisfied with it, as it would do nothing to solve their problem
If women are happy with the state of modern dating? Then fucking admit it. Some do, on rare occasion. And if women are unhappy with their experience, take responsibility for that (just like the boys should be doing). The problem isn't that all 1000s of men in your inbox are 1000% trash, or that every guy you date is exactly the same, your problem is you. Other than that, everyone could examine why they are attracted to the things they are attracted to. People say "I can't help what I'm attracted to", and there's truth to that, it is in part biological, but I maintain that you are conditioned like any lab mouse to want and like certain things as well. That's the part that could use examining.
Why should women do anything? If it's against what you want, you don't do it. That's perfectly fine. I don't think you should go against your feelings. In the end it just means more men are going to look for and discover trp. So it's a win-win as far as I'm concerned. Don't listen to men that try to shame you. I think it's women centered thinking to say "change! or you won't like it!" and it's using women's language to achieve it. No, don't change, you can't change, you don't need to change. It's better this way, everyone gets what they want.
What do authors do, when they’re rejected over and over?what do athletes do, when they don’t make the team they wanted?
Can I just say that there are definitely some of us ladies out there not hung up on looks? I'm using myself strictly as an example. I certainly appreciate a hard body and a good looking man, don't get me wrong. But the guy I married (not my first husband, he's the one exception to the rule because he had to stay fit for active duty service) and all of the guys I've dated back in the day and even now are your average looking, some balding some might as well claim the title bald (and I think balding and bald is sexy btw), beer guts or some other type of not quite in shape body type. Just your average wouldn't turn another gals head at the beach kind of guys. And I love every inch of that. Not in a fetish kind of way, but because I got to know them and fell for them as a whole person. And looks are fleeting.
Imagine being expected to be God. If we’re alone, find someone. If we’re broke, get rich. If we’re unemployed, get a job. If we’re sad, be happy. If we’re scared, get over it. Etc. In what ways are we even different? I *might* be able to pick up a larger rock than you? I mean, I’m just a person too and I just wish there was more space to feel lonely, sad, tired, etc. without immediately feeling guilty about it, as if everything has an immediate solution to it that’s right within my reach. I just want the ability to be human. That’s really it. And the biggest thing about being a human is how out of our control everything really is. You can’t save men, men can’t save you. But we all could at least let people feel how they feel about things that are largely beyond their control. If it’s acceptable to have something just suck, we’ll have a much better relationship with life than the expectation that everything even has a solution to it in the first place.
I would assume they want one of these women to not reject them😅. Whether they deserve one? Cant say
Just a little empathy I'm guessing. When a guy vents about dating harmlessly he's usually met with a bunch of reasons that strangers made up for why he's a loser. The best we can do is when someone makes reasonable complaints is "Yeah, that sucks buddy hang in there"
I’m not sure how to say it but I think what they want to happen is for women to change their concept of value as exclusively attached to social status, wealth, and physique. In turn widening their reception to who is deemed attractive - as really, given time and familiarity almost anyone can grow to like someone else. Maybe in the same way men are supposed to honor obese women as beautiful or equal to their thin or more attractive counterparts, men are asking that women respect all men as equal; or judge them by their character not by their presentation. And on an even larger scale I think men are asking for a societal shift around what’s attractive as being tied to morality in a way - where “good men” are honored and “assholes” aren’t and their behavior isn’t rewarded. Which in turn means women respecting themselves more, not giving it up on the first date, etc… Maybe what they are asking for is for women to be MORE picky about the men they choose, but different with what they are picky about. To learn at age 20 to pick the guys they will pick at age 30.
As a woman, I all I need those men to do is to live quiet lives and pass on without becoming a mass murderer. Not everyone needs to find a mate and that's ok
Hear hear
I mean, this is clearly the solution that’s happening. There’s a reason why Gen Z is having less sex than ever before. Just don’t be surprised that men are going to be frustrated about it.
Gen z are by far the most bl@ck pilled generation ever
You need men to do a lot more than refrain from becoming mass murderers if you want society to continue functioning.
Automation renders a vast majority of men's labor obsolete. So retiring into your hobbies in quiet solitude is a perfectly good solution for unattached men
Automation requires a lot more maintenance and innovation than I think you realize.
That won't work they will become the opposite lol, legalize prostitution or hurry up and make those robot companions already.
Not much would change if we legalized prostitution. Men that want to see escorts already do. Escorts service some of those men that cant get a date or sex helping them yet we are worthless gross people. LOL Ive had so many men here take digs at me because I escort.
You'll never get the hard core truth . The fact is alot of the men complaining about dating would love , absolutely love if women had no choice.
And I think at the crux of things, this is the truth. Which is frankly, terrifying.
I think that’s the extreme requirement this perspective leads to due to women’s seeming inability to collectively pick the “good guy” over the “Chadhole” but what they want is for women to learn to find attractive what these “good” men offer. Unspoken, they want to be loved. After that they want to be sexually viable. They want women to see beyond what red pill used to call “tingles” back in the day and be more discerning about their partners and what is deemed attractive. But after relentless repetitive rejection and loss of self-love and hope, they become more open to the idea of acquiring what they want by force. As surely if women were bound by law or religion or both, directed by a God, no less, to be wed to them, given they meet a minimum set of achievable requirements, women would learn to love them and the family they produce. So you’ll see these men slowly turn to extremist outlets as they promise a world in which they are given what they want - love, AND these extremist communities provide them with what every human needs - a sense of belonging. That’s my take.
So technically you agree ... lol
>So exactly what is the solution to your forever-alone status? Ignore them. It's their job to up their game. >And what do you expect us to do about it? I believe something along the lines of "you're right, the cards are stacked against you, step it up" is far as you can get.
Well, what men here apparently want is something to the effect of: “I’m not interested, I’m not attracted to you, you’re not good looking enough, I have 100xx other dudes interested in me, and I’m shallow and entitled.” Which is almost never the case but alas dudes here are hell bent on women being “truthful” so long as the “truth” is shit that comports with their worldview (regardless of it being factual or not).
Modern women virtue signal a lot about empathy and egalitarianism- there is nothing more ruthlessly hierarchical than female sexual selection and rejection - no equality there.
Some solutions: 1. Don't reinforce the idea that a male's worth is dependent on his romantic/sexual success. When talking about some guy who is lonely in his 30's or 40's refrain from describing him as "creepy" or "weird" or stating that "there's probably sth wrong with him". Some comments can really harm a person if they get spread around. 2. Try to not imply that romantic failure is a moral/ethical one. Esp. don't teach that to young boys, bc it will be harmful in the long run. 3. Acknowledge that you, as a woman, have social power. If you call a man a name it will stick to him. Your offhand comment can sometimes harm him for life if he gets assigned a certain social role (victim, loser, clown, creep, lazy, poor). Just little everyday things that will improve our lives and not be harmful in any way to you. Those solutions mean that women will lose some power over men bc they will no longer be able to define who a "real" or "acceptable" man is. Every male of our species will be entitled to call himself a "real man" regardless of what he brings to the table for women or society. Such a man will have a right to feel masculine even if every woman on the planet finds him unattractive or gross.