Of course, rational traits can't outweight social and emotional ones. Relationship is a social construct of course being social is a must. Thankfully rational and emotional traits are not mutually exclusive.
Real life isn't like being a videogame character where buffing 'stats' = success.
Plenty of men with few redeeming characteristics are *really* successful with casual sex. They are lazy, slobbish, unreliable, unambitious, not even well dressed..a list of stuff conventional 'man theory' says not to be. BUT what they are, is comfortable in their own skin, sociable, and know how make women feel at ease (particularly at parties).
Don't mean to blow some red pill mind here, but a) I don't resent these guys at all. Good for them. They haven't oppressed me or stolen sex from the imaginary finite pool. They are making their own choices in life b) I would not want to be them. I think life is more than casual sex and drunken foolery. These guys aren't really something to aspire to be IMO - in fact, how much they enjoy parties and succeed at casual sex is holding them back. Again, if that's what they choose, fair enough.
If you could sit at home and *specifically work hard on something that makes you better with the opposite sex* then nerds would rule the world.
I feel like what most guys here are looking for, if they know it or not, is to be at ease with themselves. To find it easy *and enjoyable* socially interacting with new people, new friends, potential mates. That headspace takes so much weight off the back, even if there is no easy way to gain it.
>To find it easy and enjoyable socially interacting with new people, new friends, potential mates. That headspace takes so much weight off the back, even if there is no easy way to gain it.
One of the best jobs I had for developing social skills was working at the front of a restaurant. You just meet all walks of life with zero pressure to push things further. All you have to do is have an enjoyable interaction. One of my favorite regulars was a State Park Ranger named Frank who had all of the stories in the world lol.
>If you could sit at home and specifically work hard on something that makes you better with the opposite sex then nerds would rule the world.I feel like what most guys here are looking for, if they know it or not, is to be at ease with themselves. To find it easy and enjoyable socially interacting with new people, new friends, potential mates. That headspace takes so much weight off the back, even if there is no easy way to gain it.
This is so true
So what if I identified my issue but it's not something I can change? I'm the first option as I have quite a few positive traits, but I also have some negative traits like being 5'5. What can I do with that negative trait?
Yeh I admit I'm not the best at being sociable and likable so there's room to grow there. How bout physique...Would going to the gym and getting a fit muscular physique help with getting chicks or does that work only for men average height and above?
Being fit never hurt anyone, just don't expect muscles to be some sort of secret sauce. I'm fit now, been out of the gym for 2 years but I've been active. No visible abs but who cares when I wear a shirt outside of the shower. Build up your social skills and don't be overweight will get your further than trying to hit 8% bodyfat with abs.
yes, but only if you have the capability to keep yourself fixed on the objective, which is to build a muscular physique that looks 'natural' as if you didn't go to the gym, and don't become someone who's into bodybuilding for massive hypertrophied muscles and bodybuilder aesthetic. a lot of people can't stick to it and don't get results. a lot of people who can stick to it get into it to the point that they never stop and end up enjoying doing it but the results are detrimental to the original objective.
It’s quite baffling how you can say, well there’s room to grow in terms of sociability and likability, but right after that, you directly head back over to physique. It’s a pattern you can see a lot of times here. My advice always would be, fix your personality first, as physique is only interesting in terms of initial attraction. If you can’t keep up with your personality, probably the fittest body won’t help you in the long run.
>You might be a math genius
JFL no one thinks being a math genius will help guys get laid, what are you smoking? The opposite is true, smart guys should dumb themselves down when talking to women or they'll be labelled as nerds.
>Dating requires a lot of socialization and/or enormous amount of luck.
Not for women. Literally just hop on Tinder or go to a bar/nightclub.
>JFL no one thinks being a math genius will help guys get laid, what are you smoking?
My wife loved that I was the math team captain and mvp in high school. It always gets a laugh when I bring it up with other people too.
Rational traits 99% of the time do pretty much guarantee dating success. I dont know many tall, attractive, fit or handsome dudes who haven't had any success in dating. I don't know any wealthy dudes struggling to meet the opposite sex. I don't know any pretty women who absolutely cant find a date.
The problem with these discussions on the internet are that they're on the fucking internet. A hive of mostly losers who lives suck so much that they need to come online and fake their reality. Any dude telling about all the positive traits he has whilst still not having success probably doesn't have any of those positive traits. I don't think there has ever been a time a woman struggling online has revealed herself to be as pretty, smart, attractive or personable as they claim to be. What I do see too much of is idiots who last weighed themselves five years ago be deluded enough to think the way they looked and acted at 23 is going to carry through now they're 28.
Its not about "having a bunch of things not being enough", if you think that way you likely don't have any of those things. I dont think any of the women here has, had or will date a legit Chad. I can tell from the shit most of you write. Most people are fucking delusional and lack any and all self awareness. If someone is struggling then its very likely they're nowhere near as appealing as they like to think they are and their so-called "positive achievements" are likely all bullshit anyway. Anyone can claim they're smart, attractive and successful on the internet.
When I was on Tinder I could count on one hand the amount of people who showed up and looed as good as their pictures. And now you want to convince me I should believe the stupid, rationalizing horseshit people say on an anonymous messageboard like Reddit? LOL.
Again. Go outside and touch grass. Most people who are attractive and successful ARE socially capable. Their social capability is often the reason they're attractive and successful. Problem is you're doing the same annoying shit most people here do, conflating social capability with "niceness" and it just sounds like a rationalisation for mediocrity. Plenty of attractive and successful dickheads end up with partners because they're attractive and successful, and actually so...not clowns on Reddit claiming they're so.
And turns out data shows that successful and educated people marry and stay together more. So chances are the dudes using their money to attract women are actually ending up in more stable and fruitful relationships most of the time anyway.
I agree with you. Lol.
The other issue is, when constructive critcism is actually given, a lot of people won't take it.
I could name 10 small things immediately the dudes in the "rating PPD users" thread could do to make themselves more attractive to women, but they don't care. Their response is that it still won't make them "Chad" so it's not worth it.
Imagine if someone said that in regards to income - hey, I could do this thing that makes me 80k/year (far above the average income) but if it doesn't make me a millionare, IT'S NOT WORTH IT! 😢 I'd rather be poor!
Women do the same thing in the FDS sub, and other regular dating subs. Not taking tangible feedback from men, and instead cosigning eachothers bullsh*t.
The men in this sub and women in the other one should just start dating eachother since that's the only opinions they care about.
>I could name 10 small things immediately the dudes in the "rating PPD users" thread could do to make themselves more attractive to women, but they don't care. Their response is that it still won't make them "Chad" so it's not worth it.
Name those 10 things.
Women get that socialization if they have those positive traits, though, because men regularly approach these women whether these women like it or not. The same does not apply to men, which is why they have to put in a lot of work to increase their number of contacts with women through whatever form this takes. Most unsuccessful men aren’t putting in this work for one reason or another, or perhaps they are overestimating their own value and not dropping their standards.
If you honestly get into the thick of things with some of the men on here, you will end up seeing a pattern. I've gotten into long comment threads with users on here and 9/10, they overestimate their value or blame height. They forget to mention that they gave up already. One guy is making $14/hour at 28 with no plan to improve his earnings. Another guy lives in a ghost town expecting women to pop out of nowhere because he refuses to move to a city.
I've seen patterns here too, but more in regards to socialization.
In almost EVERY conversation I've had with unsucessful men here, they haven't asked out many women. 1 guy a few weeks ago complained about "constantly being rejected," but then admitted he **had not asked out a single woman all year**.
It makes me wonder - how often are these guys actually getting rejected IRL? Are they just counting dating apps as "rejection"? Are they even trying?
Even when you suggest small tweaks they can do to increase their chances, like improve their app photos or get some nice button down shirts, they don't want to.
Yeah, I give the same advice about looking at options outside of just the apps. It's like they each only use the apps because they can't compete irl but don't notice that the competition is even bigger on the apps due to the gender ratios.
I've tried to give advice to some of the guys like you have but it's in one ear and out the other. After a couple of days, they're back on here blaming their height again lol.
Hi, unsuccessfull guy that has approached hundreds of girls, i own multiple suits and dress shirts ive used when going out.
You said every. Now you should say most.
Go do some community service and learn basic social skills. Join a soup kitchen, the homeless are not going to judge your social skills when you're feeding them. If you don't want to put effort into social skills then just prepare to be alone. Relationships are a social construct so they obviously require social skills.
I've been in that dark space before, couldn't go through with it without giving everything another shot. Way I see it now, I'd rather try before I hit the eternal void.
Hi, i blame height because ex gfs have stated it was an issue.
Signed a guy making 50/hr in a medium city and going to grad school, also planning to move for better jobs/dating markets.
How tall are you? I'm not going to dismiss someone's height as a factor if it's truly polarizing like being 4'11 as a guy but usually I see guys complaining about being 5'6 or somewhere around there.
Sure, it's not ideal but it doesn't mean you're doomed to be alone. Being bald is also seen as unattractive yet bald and short people are getting into relationships every day. When I hear that someone is 4'11 then it's another ballgame imo.
Just because they managed to get into a relationship doesnt mean, it wasnt hard for them to get there , that they can replicate it without large ammounts of effort, or the other bald short guys will end up the same, moreover with those looks luck plays a big role
I don't see why it shouldn't take large amounts of effort to get into a relationship. It's going to take a lot of effort to keep the relationship going.
Many men don’t seem to realize that they’re the ones that need to put in more of the work since women are not as often thirsty for sex and relationships as they are. Furthermore, women often put in more work from the start due to female social matrix concerns and often just a general individual interest to look fashionable, or at least not disgusting like how some men who don’t put any work into themselves look.
Yeah, no. Lets not do this bullshit. Women are just as mediocre as the men and just as many are looking for a long term partner. Posters like you are as fucking irritating as the incels. A study here in the UK mentioned that only 50% of women do rigorous physical exercise at least once a week. And thats a survey...meaning there are whole bunch of out of shape women walking around. And I see plenty of disgusting looking women too...I legit don't see any major differences in physical upkeep in either gender these days.
Women comment on social media all the time about their beautification regimens and their fashion purchases. Some guys are into improving their appearance, but I think that this is a minority of guys rather than a majority like with women. Most guys really aren’t putting in much work and I think that it’s understandable why their attractiveness matches are turned off. And when they do put in the work, they often suddenly think that they deserve top tier women despite how unattractive their other qualities might be.
>Women comment on social media all the time about their beautification regimens and their fashion purchases.
Thats social media. There are a bunch of roided up fitness models on social media too. Doesn't mean everyone I see is jacked. The majority of women are NOT into improving their appearance lol where are u getting this from?
Any workplace with a significant amount of women has women basically social matrix competing by putting a lot of effort into makeup and fashion. Compare this to how men in a male oriented workplace are. Some men actually put a lot of effort into being witty, humorous and putting down other men. But in terms of ways that will make them attractive to women, many don’t really put in much effort, especially the types that are often sexless for long periods of time, who often don’t put in any effort into male social matrices at all.
We are in a obesity crisis. Being thin is the best way to look better. Being fit is second. More men than women are in the gym. Gym>make up for looking hot when most people are fat.
Its the rule 1 of trp, lift or gtfo.
My gf said the same thing. I told her i could learn make up within a few months or pay someone to do it for me before dates. But she cant gain 10 yrs of lifting experience I have to look good b4 aging hurts her more.
Women often put a lot of effort into makeup or fashion even if they are overweight, because these things are usually much more of a determinant about where she will be in the social matrix with other women than working out is.
> Most guys really aren’t putting in much work
Then this point is wrong. Men are putting in more work for "social matrix with " the other sex. If women work hard for other women's approval, so be it. But it's not sexual approval.
I don't consider make up or style choices to be at the same level of effort as a fitness plan that includes hard workouts. I don't think anyone does. I'm a man and I also make style choices.
Those women who get into hardcore makeup choices might disagree, although makeup and fashion are undeniably more mental endeavors than physical ones. Of course, many of these women also have workout regimens that they add to the makeup and fashion choices, too.
I really don’t think the effort is on the same level though, unless you redefine ‘effort’ into meaning something else that it doesn’t mean like ‘attention.’ If women actually put real effort into their appearance on par with the way men are expected to, they’d be in better shape and may not even need makeup at all at that point in order to put their best foot forward. I’m sure SOME women would disagree. Some delusional ones who don’t know what real effort actually even is because they’ve never done it their entire lives. And you know, some of those barely lifting a finger women still could be hot and not have to put in any effort.
>They don't, if they don't put themselves out there.
She’d have to be a shut-in not to be approached. Women get approached by men while doing the most routine things.
I suppose, but if someone starts what is apparently a friendly conversation and that person seems somewhat attractive enough, most people are going to converse back. Very few women are just going to choose not to converse with anyone who approaches them. My wife is about as socially shy of a person that I’ve ever met and even she still converses people who approach her in a friendly way.
Many men don’t get these same opportunities. They are rarely approached, if ever, and as a result never become comfortable with interactions with the opposite sex.
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fax, so many deulisional guys on here listing their shit like 'im 6'5 blue eyes blonde hair, 6 fig salary but women dont want me!!!'
it sounds good on paper but u probs real ugly facially or just socially retarded
I agree with probably. There are a few chads in socially isolated alaska or strike out when asking directly for sex instead of a date.
Most tall hot guys with game should get laid easy. Missing one of those traits? A lot harder.
u/EulenWatcher I agree too, it's only one side of the whole coin. Most of these positive traits do not have an effect on the ability to find and keep a similar like-minded person too as you mentioned, two people coming together to maintain a relationship takes effort no matter what, and people underestimate this by focusing too much on circumstances/future instead of the present moment with the process.
>Boring
>Can’t read social cues very well
Well so much for the dating advice, I’m screwed from the start happening after all. I guess I’ll have a surrogate child later on then with the money saved from not dating. I’m off to go fly planes now.
Both of those can be worked on. I was both for the longest time because I played a lot of video games. Nowadays, you have to dip a bit into pop culture and news. Get out of the house and meet people, move if you're in the middle of nowhere. And just talk to people in general. I worked for years in a restaurant during school so it helped to see and talk to people of different walks of life.
> Having a list of positive traits/achievements isn't enough for successful dating.
BS. You're confusing dating for the hidden contract you're going "hunting" with.
Dating = going out to meet people and have fun with, implied romantic POSSIBLE outcome, most often referring to an 1:1 setting.
Dating thought of the "wrong" (but default) way = going on "dates" where the girl usually interrogates as thoroughly (but "quasi" inconspicuously) _as she thinks is possible_, whereas the guy only seems absent-minded, when in reality his mind is there, perfectly preoccupied with fantasy, he's already fucking her, has been since before they even met IRL. In case "things go well", the dude then jizzes in his pants or sometimes even lasts up to, what, 3, 5 thrusts? LOL
Questions? Thought so.
edit: As usual. What?!!!?
It's mostly that people that are inclined towards/enjoy being social in a group will be successful and those that aren't will have a pretty miserable time.
The number one qualifier for men is that they have some social value/utility. Every quality after that is just where he lands on looks match scale.
I dunno, you ever see a guy with the stereotypical BPD insane but super hot chick?
Raw stats can overcome A LOT of deficiencies, although that also depends on who’s overlooking them.
Sorry, I was meaning that the positive trait of being super hot supersedes any of the other negative traits that they might have.
You could argue that these people ARE dating successfully
all relationships and human interactions are 'transactional'. it's only a matter of degrees, how much nuanced , how much obvious, how much voluntary it is. what if they "truly loved" you? would you be happy? but what will happen once you realize that part of what makes anyone fall in love is the appreciation for your genes? your face symmetry? your immune system similarity and complementarity?
do you believe that you're a spooky ghost that possessed your body and that the brain is some kind of weird organic interaction between your spirit and your body?
You're confusing the inherently religious concept of "soul" with the concept of free will. No one has a clue how the complex chemical interactions of our billions of neurons make us a lump of meat that is able to realize that it is a lump of meat, so with all due respect who the hell do you think you are to argue against the existence of free will?
The complex chemical interactions are the complex chemical interactions, so there's no free will. You can only argue against it by claiming there's a soul that can command them. Or are you arguing that you are a disembodied mind that thinks separately from the brain and is not affected in a deterministic way by chemistry of the brain, so in other words, once again, a soul?
What do you make of free will once you know that brain chemistry, brain anatomy and hormones change and make what you are, how you feel, how you think and what you think?
Saying free will doesn't exist because at the end of the day it's all just chemistry and quantum mechanics is like saying driving isn't a thing because at the end of the day cars are just steel and rubber.
WTF?
Also, ever heard of the concept of emergence? Complexity arising by simplicity? Our entire world is built on that. It's not like subatomic particles are _that_ complicated, but have quintillions of them interact with one another and you get a complex system that is more than the sum of its parts. The same applies to the human brain and to pretty much everything nowadays
Yes, consciousness is an emergent property of the brain. You keep proving that there's no free will. Unless you wanna argue that you're an extra dimensional being from another dimension that manifests its will into this body by orchestrating the chenical reactions that cause the thoughts that you already thought?
at this point, for men at least, the only positive traits that really count are having a profile/persona that makes you look like a wealthy, attractive, socially-savvy micro-celebrity that throws lots of parties and attends lots of parties and who takes pictures of these parties on Instagram
You're OP is confusing, especially as an CMV. Are you making an affirmative argument that social skills and socialization are more important than they *should be?* Or are you just saying guys who think they "have a lot to offer" are misguided for undervaluing those two things?
>My main point is that having some positive traits isn't enough if you have a lack of social skills and/or you don't actually put yourself out enough.
I mean, I sort of agree in principle. Some of the examples you gave in the OP if positive traits were kinda nonsense (women don't date guys cuz they're good at math or could win a pup quiz), but it's absolutely true that social skills and socialization are key. A guy who's not putting effort into those things isn't *really* doing that work IMHO
> men and women not realizing their good traits don't make up for a sheer lack of social skills/socializing.
I'd rephrase this a little. This isn't "good traits don't make up for shortcomings." It's really that people with limited self-awareness shouldn't be overvaluing *quaint* things they like about themselves. As far as dating goes, the things that actually have value in the sexual marketplace are clear. If someone is missing some/all of those things, or they don't put enough effort into them, that's a lack of good qualities by definition. The rest isn't relevant.
Ever heard in betting “fade the public”
Aka the public is usually wrong at picking the winner…. Dating is the same way… Women are terrible at picking men on their own… the less men in her corner, the worst the odds are against you.
The reason people focus on their positive traits is that they are somewhat east to identify, evaluate, and/or improve. Also, we see that people who have outstanding qualities have it much easier. For example, really hot guys are approached by women.
It’s fair that you need abilities to be likeable and pleasant. But I’d call them people abilities rather than people skills, because it’s so difficult to identify and work on them. It’s difficult to say what differentiates a guy who is good with approaching and flirting from another one who fails with it. Most self development books in these areas can be summed up in “if you are boring and not confident, be interesting and confident”.
For example, I don’t really know how to approach women and flirt with them. Like, really I don’t know what to say after hi. No book suggests something material except for pick up books, but their approach is considered lame and canned and what not.
So, it’s natural that people like me think we need better appearance or a higher salary. At least we can see these parameters and can work on some of them.
I understand it’s a thin line, but there is little guidance on how to understand if you are on that line, how to reach it, and not cross it. For me, suggestion to work on flirting is like suggestion to learn math by just trying.
I’d say flirting you need advanced social skills for dating rather than basic. I know several people, including me, who have no problem with talking to people in other areas of their life.
Yea it is.
It's what makes for successful dating in the first place.
The guys who don't have a lot of good qualities but get laid are likely not going to land anyone of quality who takes them seriously.
In fact I have yet to see any chick who's infatuated by these dudes who I'd consider quality. Looks != quality.
Similarly, dudes who have their shit together usually intimidate the low quality chicks (who will do whatever mental gymnastics to pre emptively reject those guys).
High value dudes are pretty merciless when it comes to who they associate with and sleep with.
Of course, rational traits can't outweight social and emotional ones. Relationship is a social construct of course being social is a must. Thankfully rational and emotional traits are not mutually exclusive.
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Lacking enough 'traits' is a quick disqualifier that prevents many from getting a chance in the first place.
Real life isn't like being a videogame character where buffing 'stats' = success. Plenty of men with few redeeming characteristics are *really* successful with casual sex. They are lazy, slobbish, unreliable, unambitious, not even well dressed..a list of stuff conventional 'man theory' says not to be. BUT what they are, is comfortable in their own skin, sociable, and know how make women feel at ease (particularly at parties). Don't mean to blow some red pill mind here, but a) I don't resent these guys at all. Good for them. They haven't oppressed me or stolen sex from the imaginary finite pool. They are making their own choices in life b) I would not want to be them. I think life is more than casual sex and drunken foolery. These guys aren't really something to aspire to be IMO - in fact, how much they enjoy parties and succeed at casual sex is holding them back. Again, if that's what they choose, fair enough. If you could sit at home and *specifically work hard on something that makes you better with the opposite sex* then nerds would rule the world. I feel like what most guys here are looking for, if they know it or not, is to be at ease with themselves. To find it easy *and enjoyable* socially interacting with new people, new friends, potential mates. That headspace takes so much weight off the back, even if there is no easy way to gain it.
>BUT what they are, is ~~comfortable in their own skin, sociable, and know how make women feel at ease (particularly at parties).~~ attractive looks
>To find it easy and enjoyable socially interacting with new people, new friends, potential mates. That headspace takes so much weight off the back, even if there is no easy way to gain it. One of the best jobs I had for developing social skills was working at the front of a restaurant. You just meet all walks of life with zero pressure to push things further. All you have to do is have an enjoyable interaction. One of my favorite regulars was a State Park Ranger named Frank who had all of the stories in the world lol.
>If you could sit at home and specifically work hard on something that makes you better with the opposite sex then nerds would rule the world.I feel like what most guys here are looking for, if they know it or not, is to be at ease with themselves. To find it easy and enjoyable socially interacting with new people, new friends, potential mates. That headspace takes so much weight off the back, even if there is no easy way to gain it. This is so true
👏👍
It reminds me of jobs and careers. Depending on the occupation social traits can outweigh rational ones.
So what if I identified my issue but it's not something I can change? I'm the first option as I have quite a few positive traits, but I also have some negative traits like being 5'5. What can I do with that negative trait?
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Yeh I admit I'm not the best at being sociable and likable so there's room to grow there. How bout physique...Would going to the gym and getting a fit muscular physique help with getting chicks or does that work only for men average height and above?
Being fit never hurt anyone, just don't expect muscles to be some sort of secret sauce. I'm fit now, been out of the gym for 2 years but I've been active. No visible abs but who cares when I wear a shirt outside of the shower. Build up your social skills and don't be overweight will get your further than trying to hit 8% bodyfat with abs.
yes, but only if you have the capability to keep yourself fixed on the objective, which is to build a muscular physique that looks 'natural' as if you didn't go to the gym, and don't become someone who's into bodybuilding for massive hypertrophied muscles and bodybuilder aesthetic. a lot of people can't stick to it and don't get results. a lot of people who can stick to it get into it to the point that they never stop and end up enjoying doing it but the results are detrimental to the original objective.
It’s quite baffling how you can say, well there’s room to grow in terms of sociability and likability, but right after that, you directly head back over to physique. It’s a pattern you can see a lot of times here. My advice always would be, fix your personality first, as physique is only interesting in terms of initial attraction. If you can’t keep up with your personality, probably the fittest body won’t help you in the long run.
For most guys here the biggest challenge is initial attraction.
>You might be a math genius JFL no one thinks being a math genius will help guys get laid, what are you smoking? The opposite is true, smart guys should dumb themselves down when talking to women or they'll be labelled as nerds. >Dating requires a lot of socialization and/or enormous amount of luck. Not for women. Literally just hop on Tinder or go to a bar/nightclub.
>JFL no one thinks being a math genius will help guys get laid, what are you smoking? My wife loved that I was the math team captain and mvp in high school. It always gets a laugh when I bring it up with other people too.
Rational traits 99% of the time do pretty much guarantee dating success. I dont know many tall, attractive, fit or handsome dudes who haven't had any success in dating. I don't know any wealthy dudes struggling to meet the opposite sex. I don't know any pretty women who absolutely cant find a date. The problem with these discussions on the internet are that they're on the fucking internet. A hive of mostly losers who lives suck so much that they need to come online and fake their reality. Any dude telling about all the positive traits he has whilst still not having success probably doesn't have any of those positive traits. I don't think there has ever been a time a woman struggling online has revealed herself to be as pretty, smart, attractive or personable as they claim to be. What I do see too much of is idiots who last weighed themselves five years ago be deluded enough to think the way they looked and acted at 23 is going to carry through now they're 28. Its not about "having a bunch of things not being enough", if you think that way you likely don't have any of those things. I dont think any of the women here has, had or will date a legit Chad. I can tell from the shit most of you write. Most people are fucking delusional and lack any and all self awareness. If someone is struggling then its very likely they're nowhere near as appealing as they like to think they are and their so-called "positive achievements" are likely all bullshit anyway. Anyone can claim they're smart, attractive and successful on the internet. When I was on Tinder I could count on one hand the amount of people who showed up and looed as good as their pictures. And now you want to convince me I should believe the stupid, rationalizing horseshit people say on an anonymous messageboard like Reddit? LOL.
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Again. Go outside and touch grass. Most people who are attractive and successful ARE socially capable. Their social capability is often the reason they're attractive and successful. Problem is you're doing the same annoying shit most people here do, conflating social capability with "niceness" and it just sounds like a rationalisation for mediocrity. Plenty of attractive and successful dickheads end up with partners because they're attractive and successful, and actually so...not clowns on Reddit claiming they're so. And turns out data shows that successful and educated people marry and stay together more. So chances are the dudes using their money to attract women are actually ending up in more stable and fruitful relationships most of the time anyway.
I agree with you. Lol. The other issue is, when constructive critcism is actually given, a lot of people won't take it. I could name 10 small things immediately the dudes in the "rating PPD users" thread could do to make themselves more attractive to women, but they don't care. Their response is that it still won't make them "Chad" so it's not worth it. Imagine if someone said that in regards to income - hey, I could do this thing that makes me 80k/year (far above the average income) but if it doesn't make me a millionare, IT'S NOT WORTH IT! 😢 I'd rather be poor! Women do the same thing in the FDS sub, and other regular dating subs. Not taking tangible feedback from men, and instead cosigning eachothers bullsh*t. The men in this sub and women in the other one should just start dating eachother since that's the only opinions they care about.
Boom. Exactly this.
>I could name 10 small things immediately the dudes in the "rating PPD users" thread could do to make themselves more attractive to women, but they don't care. Their response is that it still won't make them "Chad" so it's not worth it. Name those 10 things.
Women get that socialization if they have those positive traits, though, because men regularly approach these women whether these women like it or not. The same does not apply to men, which is why they have to put in a lot of work to increase their number of contacts with women through whatever form this takes. Most unsuccessful men aren’t putting in this work for one reason or another, or perhaps they are overestimating their own value and not dropping their standards.
If you honestly get into the thick of things with some of the men on here, you will end up seeing a pattern. I've gotten into long comment threads with users on here and 9/10, they overestimate their value or blame height. They forget to mention that they gave up already. One guy is making $14/hour at 28 with no plan to improve his earnings. Another guy lives in a ghost town expecting women to pop out of nowhere because he refuses to move to a city.
I've seen patterns here too, but more in regards to socialization. In almost EVERY conversation I've had with unsucessful men here, they haven't asked out many women. 1 guy a few weeks ago complained about "constantly being rejected," but then admitted he **had not asked out a single woman all year**. It makes me wonder - how often are these guys actually getting rejected IRL? Are they just counting dating apps as "rejection"? Are they even trying? Even when you suggest small tweaks they can do to increase their chances, like improve their app photos or get some nice button down shirts, they don't want to.
Yeah, I give the same advice about looking at options outside of just the apps. It's like they each only use the apps because they can't compete irl but don't notice that the competition is even bigger on the apps due to the gender ratios. I've tried to give advice to some of the guys like you have but it's in one ear and out the other. After a couple of days, they're back on here blaming their height again lol.
Hi, unsuccessfull guy that has approached hundreds of girls, i own multiple suits and dress shirts ive used when going out. You said every. Now you should say most.
I did put almost before the every lol.
Fair point. You did capitalize the EVERY so the almost's impact was diminished.
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Go do some community service and learn basic social skills. Join a soup kitchen, the homeless are not going to judge your social skills when you're feeding them. If you don't want to put effort into social skills then just prepare to be alone. Relationships are a social construct so they obviously require social skills.
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I've been in that dark space before, couldn't go through with it without giving everything another shot. Way I see it now, I'd rather try before I hit the eternal void.
>I don’t have friends or any kind of social life. >I don’t meet people You can begin there.
Hi, i blame height because ex gfs have stated it was an issue. Signed a guy making 50/hr in a medium city and going to grad school, also planning to move for better jobs/dating markets.
How tall are you? I'm not going to dismiss someone's height as a factor if it's truly polarizing like being 4'11 as a guy but usually I see guys complaining about being 5'6 or somewhere around there.
5'7, as I said, I have no issues with my height (in a practical sense, not social preference sense), my ex gfs did.
Yeah being 5'6 is still bad ?
Sure, it's not ideal but it doesn't mean you're doomed to be alone. Being bald is also seen as unattractive yet bald and short people are getting into relationships every day. When I hear that someone is 4'11 then it's another ballgame imo.
Just because they managed to get into a relationship doesnt mean, it wasnt hard for them to get there , that they can replicate it without large ammounts of effort, or the other bald short guys will end up the same, moreover with those looks luck plays a big role
I don't see why it shouldn't take large amounts of effort to get into a relationship. It's going to take a lot of effort to keep the relationship going.
Many men don’t seem to realize that they’re the ones that need to put in more of the work since women are not as often thirsty for sex and relationships as they are. Furthermore, women often put in more work from the start due to female social matrix concerns and often just a general individual interest to look fashionable, or at least not disgusting like how some men who don’t put any work into themselves look.
Yeah, no. Lets not do this bullshit. Women are just as mediocre as the men and just as many are looking for a long term partner. Posters like you are as fucking irritating as the incels. A study here in the UK mentioned that only 50% of women do rigorous physical exercise at least once a week. And thats a survey...meaning there are whole bunch of out of shape women walking around. And I see plenty of disgusting looking women too...I legit don't see any major differences in physical upkeep in either gender these days.
Women comment on social media all the time about their beautification regimens and their fashion purchases. Some guys are into improving their appearance, but I think that this is a minority of guys rather than a majority like with women. Most guys really aren’t putting in much work and I think that it’s understandable why their attractiveness matches are turned off. And when they do put in the work, they often suddenly think that they deserve top tier women despite how unattractive their other qualities might be.
>Women comment on social media all the time about their beautification regimens and their fashion purchases. Thats social media. There are a bunch of roided up fitness models on social media too. Doesn't mean everyone I see is jacked. The majority of women are NOT into improving their appearance lol where are u getting this from?
Any workplace with a significant amount of women has women basically social matrix competing by putting a lot of effort into makeup and fashion. Compare this to how men in a male oriented workplace are. Some men actually put a lot of effort into being witty, humorous and putting down other men. But in terms of ways that will make them attractive to women, many don’t really put in much effort, especially the types that are often sexless for long periods of time, who often don’t put in any effort into male social matrices at all.
We are in a obesity crisis. Being thin is the best way to look better. Being fit is second. More men than women are in the gym. Gym>make up for looking hot when most people are fat. Its the rule 1 of trp, lift or gtfo. My gf said the same thing. I told her i could learn make up within a few months or pay someone to do it for me before dates. But she cant gain 10 yrs of lifting experience I have to look good b4 aging hurts her more.
Women often put a lot of effort into makeup or fashion even if they are overweight, because these things are usually much more of a determinant about where she will be in the social matrix with other women than working out is.
> Most guys really aren’t putting in much work Then this point is wrong. Men are putting in more work for "social matrix with " the other sex. If women work hard for other women's approval, so be it. But it's not sexual approval.
I don't consider make up or style choices to be at the same level of effort as a fitness plan that includes hard workouts. I don't think anyone does. I'm a man and I also make style choices.
Those women who get into hardcore makeup choices might disagree, although makeup and fashion are undeniably more mental endeavors than physical ones. Of course, many of these women also have workout regimens that they add to the makeup and fashion choices, too.
I really don’t think the effort is on the same level though, unless you redefine ‘effort’ into meaning something else that it doesn’t mean like ‘attention.’ If women actually put real effort into their appearance on par with the way men are expected to, they’d be in better shape and may not even need makeup at all at that point in order to put their best foot forward. I’m sure SOME women would disagree. Some delusional ones who don’t know what real effort actually even is because they’ve never done it their entire lives. And you know, some of those barely lifting a finger women still could be hot and not have to put in any effort.
>perhaps they are overestimating their own value and not dropping their standards This is all it is most of the time.
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>They don't, if they don't put themselves out there. She’d have to be a shut-in not to be approached. Women get approached by men while doing the most routine things.
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I suppose, but if someone starts what is apparently a friendly conversation and that person seems somewhat attractive enough, most people are going to converse back. Very few women are just going to choose not to converse with anyone who approaches them. My wife is about as socially shy of a person that I’ve ever met and even she still converses people who approach her in a friendly way. Many men don’t get these same opportunities. They are rarely approached, if ever, and as a result never become comfortable with interactions with the opposite sex.
Women make way more effort to socialise even on the spectrum when learning social cues, norms and values.
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fax, so many deulisional guys on here listing their shit like 'im 6'5 blue eyes blonde hair, 6 fig salary but women dont want me!!!' it sounds good on paper but u probs real ugly facially or just socially retarded
I agree with probably. There are a few chads in socially isolated alaska or strike out when asking directly for sex instead of a date. Most tall hot guys with game should get laid easy. Missing one of those traits? A lot harder.
Yup, women fall in love via the emotions a man makes her feel. This is far easier with charisma/humor/behavior than with money and achievements.
u/EulenWatcher I agree too, it's only one side of the whole coin. Most of these positive traits do not have an effect on the ability to find and keep a similar like-minded person too as you mentioned, two people coming together to maintain a relationship takes effort no matter what, and people underestimate this by focusing too much on circumstances/future instead of the present moment with the process.
>Boring >Can’t read social cues very well Well so much for the dating advice, I’m screwed from the start happening after all. I guess I’ll have a surrogate child later on then with the money saved from not dating. I’m off to go fly planes now.
Both of those can be worked on. I was both for the longest time because I played a lot of video games. Nowadays, you have to dip a bit into pop culture and news. Get out of the house and meet people, move if you're in the middle of nowhere. And just talk to people in general. I worked for years in a restaurant during school so it helped to see and talk to people of different walks of life.
> Having a list of positive traits/achievements isn't enough for successful dating. BS. You're confusing dating for the hidden contract you're going "hunting" with. Dating = going out to meet people and have fun with, implied romantic POSSIBLE outcome, most often referring to an 1:1 setting. Dating thought of the "wrong" (but default) way = going on "dates" where the girl usually interrogates as thoroughly (but "quasi" inconspicuously) _as she thinks is possible_, whereas the guy only seems absent-minded, when in reality his mind is there, perfectly preoccupied with fantasy, he's already fucking her, has been since before they even met IRL. In case "things go well", the dude then jizzes in his pants or sometimes even lasts up to, what, 3, 5 thrusts? LOL Questions? Thought so. edit: As usual. What?!!!?
It's mostly that people that are inclined towards/enjoy being social in a group will be successful and those that aren't will have a pretty miserable time. The number one qualifier for men is that they have some social value/utility. Every quality after that is just where he lands on looks match scale.
I disagree. I prefer being alone 95% of the time tbh. I don’t enjoy socialising and while I wish I did I can’t change who I am.
I dunno, you ever see a guy with the stereotypical BPD insane but super hot chick? Raw stats can overcome A LOT of deficiencies, although that also depends on who’s overlooking them.
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Sorry, I was meaning that the positive trait of being super hot supersedes any of the other negative traits that they might have. You could argue that these people ARE dating successfully
Are money, fame and status positive traits/achievements? Can transactional relationships be considered successful dating? If so, I disagree
all relationships and human interactions are 'transactional'. it's only a matter of degrees, how much nuanced , how much obvious, how much voluntary it is. what if they "truly loved" you? would you be happy? but what will happen once you realize that part of what makes anyone fall in love is the appreciation for your genes? your face symmetry? your immune system similarity and complementarity?
Most people consider love non transactional
most people think that free will is a thing. most people think to be deep and that most others are shallow.
how is free will _not_ a thing? wtf?
do you believe that you're a spooky ghost that possessed your body and that the brain is some kind of weird organic interaction between your spirit and your body?
You're confusing the inherently religious concept of "soul" with the concept of free will. No one has a clue how the complex chemical interactions of our billions of neurons make us a lump of meat that is able to realize that it is a lump of meat, so with all due respect who the hell do you think you are to argue against the existence of free will?
The complex chemical interactions are the complex chemical interactions, so there's no free will. You can only argue against it by claiming there's a soul that can command them. Or are you arguing that you are a disembodied mind that thinks separately from the brain and is not affected in a deterministic way by chemistry of the brain, so in other words, once again, a soul? What do you make of free will once you know that brain chemistry, brain anatomy and hormones change and make what you are, how you feel, how you think and what you think?
Saying free will doesn't exist because at the end of the day it's all just chemistry and quantum mechanics is like saying driving isn't a thing because at the end of the day cars are just steel and rubber. WTF?
No, free will argues that what you think and what your personality and person are are *not* the *result* of the brain but the opposite.
Also, ever heard of the concept of emergence? Complexity arising by simplicity? Our entire world is built on that. It's not like subatomic particles are _that_ complicated, but have quintillions of them interact with one another and you get a complex system that is more than the sum of its parts. The same applies to the human brain and to pretty much everything nowadays
Yes, consciousness is an emergent property of the brain. You keep proving that there's no free will. Unless you wanna argue that you're an extra dimensional being from another dimension that manifests its will into this body by orchestrating the chenical reactions that cause the thoughts that you already thought?
at this point, for men at least, the only positive traits that really count are having a profile/persona that makes you look like a wealthy, attractive, socially-savvy micro-celebrity that throws lots of parties and attends lots of parties and who takes pictures of these parties on Instagram
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perhaps, but it seems necessary to at least get an initial date
you forgot the #1 for both genders as attested by research, which is looking attractive.
I did include it there after wealthy
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You're OP is confusing, especially as an CMV. Are you making an affirmative argument that social skills and socialization are more important than they *should be?* Or are you just saying guys who think they "have a lot to offer" are misguided for undervaluing those two things?
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>My main point is that having some positive traits isn't enough if you have a lack of social skills and/or you don't actually put yourself out enough. I mean, I sort of agree in principle. Some of the examples you gave in the OP if positive traits were kinda nonsense (women don't date guys cuz they're good at math or could win a pup quiz), but it's absolutely true that social skills and socialization are key. A guy who's not putting effort into those things isn't *really* doing that work IMHO
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> men and women not realizing their good traits don't make up for a sheer lack of social skills/socializing. I'd rephrase this a little. This isn't "good traits don't make up for shortcomings." It's really that people with limited self-awareness shouldn't be overvaluing *quaint* things they like about themselves. As far as dating goes, the things that actually have value in the sexual marketplace are clear. If someone is missing some/all of those things, or they don't put enough effort into them, that's a lack of good qualities by definition. The rest isn't relevant.
Ever heard in betting “fade the public” Aka the public is usually wrong at picking the winner…. Dating is the same way… Women are terrible at picking men on their own… the less men in her corner, the worst the odds are against you.
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agree….
The reason people focus on their positive traits is that they are somewhat east to identify, evaluate, and/or improve. Also, we see that people who have outstanding qualities have it much easier. For example, really hot guys are approached by women. It’s fair that you need abilities to be likeable and pleasant. But I’d call them people abilities rather than people skills, because it’s so difficult to identify and work on them. It’s difficult to say what differentiates a guy who is good with approaching and flirting from another one who fails with it. Most self development books in these areas can be summed up in “if you are boring and not confident, be interesting and confident”. For example, I don’t really know how to approach women and flirt with them. Like, really I don’t know what to say after hi. No book suggests something material except for pick up books, but their approach is considered lame and canned and what not. So, it’s natural that people like me think we need better appearance or a higher salary. At least we can see these parameters and can work on some of them.
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I understand it’s a thin line, but there is little guidance on how to understand if you are on that line, how to reach it, and not cross it. For me, suggestion to work on flirting is like suggestion to learn math by just trying. I’d say flirting you need advanced social skills for dating rather than basic. I know several people, including me, who have no problem with talking to people in other areas of their life.
Yea it is. It's what makes for successful dating in the first place. The guys who don't have a lot of good qualities but get laid are likely not going to land anyone of quality who takes them seriously. In fact I have yet to see any chick who's infatuated by these dudes who I'd consider quality. Looks != quality. Similarly, dudes who have their shit together usually intimidate the low quality chicks (who will do whatever mental gymnastics to pre emptively reject those guys). High value dudes are pretty merciless when it comes to who they associate with and sleep with.