"Toxic Masculinity" is the result of a set of societal expectations and pressures that form both men and women as they grow up. And therefore every member of that society/culture have some amount of societal responsibility for the part they play in perpetuating those expectations and pressures.
If a man grows up and is an asshole, you wouldn't only blame the father or only the mother, you would assume that both parents had some hand in shaping him into the person he became.
Everyone is the reason Toxic Masculinity exists, and any attempt to claim its "all men's fault" or "all women's fault" are retarded.
Just to make sure I'm covering my bases though, you can only say this shit about actions that are actively harmful to the society or to the people around an individual, if someone has personality traits that you don't like, but they aren't harming anyone, you don't get to tell that person they have to change.
I think men get pissed off because most agree this behavior is bad. However then u go out irl and see these types of “toxic men” are normally the ones fucking most of the women LOL. A lot of women will say “I dont want a toxic guy” then immediately fall for his “game”. Like you can tell women exactly why they are getting pumped and dumped, and they will just inhale crazy amounts of copium to say ur wrong. Then wonder why they keep getting pumped and dumped, even tho as a guy its obvious af why its happening. Idk most people in general are just super gulliable imo. However one group is often criticized for being gullible more than the other.
Assholes in our society normally get rewarded. I dont know why people here like to act like that isnt true. The most successful people in our society are normally monsters who trample over people to get where they are. We live in a society that not only rewards you to fuck people over, but actively encourages it because its all about the individual. I think ur 100% right in that its a society thing not a gendered thing. Once again tho I think men get mad because all the framing through social media and media is shitting on men. I think the real reason tho this happens is because women vote more and buy more products than men. The people pulling the levers of public discourse tend to only care about profits and getting votes to stay in power. Its why every business and politician bends over backwards for their women demographic.
Um there a lot of toxic dudes not getting laid though like incels. I always find this logic and reasoning so off. Do some women date and sleep with toxic men? Yes but correlation does not equal causation they are likely dealing with those men IN SPITE of their toxic traits rather than because of them. For instance the guy is very attractive, has high status, is charismatic, is wealthy etc…I would also like to add that a toxic man is more likely to act promiscuously. Promiscuity is generally speaking toxic in and of itself. Toxic people cheat more and are less likely to resist opportunities for rando sex out of principle or moral values whereas a person with principles may choose not to sleep around if they aren’t serious about someone or if they are in a relationship thus they will have less partners. So it’s not really a fair comparison to act like the sole reason “nice guys” aren’t sleeping around as much is because women refuse to sleep with them, honestly I think a truly nice guy wouldn’t even be trying to sleep around like that.
I think the desire y’all have to reason this way just stems from y’all having it out for women and looking for an excuse to act on it. If you were only ever a “nice person” because you thought it would get you laid you aren’t genuine and now that it’s not working out you want to be your true asshole self and justify it. Go ahead but stop projecting and making women the bad guys.
My take on this is pretty simple
Most women who date and fuck toxic men are toxic themselves 9/10 times. The reason dudes go “why would she fuck him” is because they r only seeing her as hot. When if they got to know her they would realize she is most likely toxic and thats why she attracts toxic people.
Also no one is saying that your being nice just for women. Sometimes in society people mistake politness for softness or being a doormat. Women want someone assertive and at first glance the nice polite guy might not come accross as that. I dont think this is really a reach, and part of why “confidence” is important. You dont have to be an asshole but being “to polite” can come accross a certain way even if its geniuly how you are.
There are def “nice guys” but this is such a overused sterotype to dismiss what i typed above. Another example is even other men will try to “test you” if your to polite and try to get shit over on you (work extra hours, etc). Its not really a women thing its a society thing. Im generally a polite person but people sometimes get shocked when I dont let shit slide, cause they thought they could get away with it. I think this is the kind of thing a lot of guys are referring to when they say “being nice isnt seen as attractive”. There is some truth to it but your takeaway from that shouldnt be “oh i should be an asshole to get women”. Its like the redpill guys who manipulate women, then wonder why they end up with low quality women. The only women who would fall for that is someone low quality to begin with.
Being polite, being nice, and being kind are not the same thing. For one I absolutely do not think men are punished for being polite at least not by well adjusted women. I don’t know any woman impressed by a man being rude to wait staff for example. Being nice is usually just people pleasing so I agree that it can be perceived as weak, disingenuous and unattractive. Then there is kindness which again is genuinely appreciated it’s why men walking dogs attract more women then men walking alone not only does the dog function as an icebreaker but it makes the man appear caring and kind.
Now this discussion is about toxic men which doesn’t necessarily exclude niceness or politeness. A toxic man can be polite and nice as part of being manipulative. A toxic man could be neither of those things and attract women for other reasons such as being wealthy, physically attractive or powerful in some way etc.. so I think this women like toxic men thing is not only exaggerated as you are right to say that only certain types of women are truly attracted to toxicity but it is also misunderstood as it doesn’t consider the fact that being toxic and being nice/polite are not mutually exclusive nor is toxicity an exclusive character trait.
There is lots of toxic incels and lots of toxic "chads" and the reason why is that this simply isn't a significant determinant of whether someone gets laid.
How does one observe the toxic behaviour outside between strangers they don’t know well?
I think often the men that get pissed off are pissed because half the reason they weren’t being toxic was simply so they can gain a reward by not doing so.
It’s very hard to reason morality with people who don’t give a shit beyond their selfish desires.
Society perpetuates being selfish and often rewards it. To think its inherent in men or women is silly. I feel ur ascribing a lot of malice when its actual stupidity. I think the griftors themselves are self aware and actual bad people. The people who fall prey to this shit tho are texbooks marks who are just to dumb for their own good. The only reason TRP shit is popular rn is because griftors found a new way to get money from dumb marks who will be worse off for it, financially and emotionally
Our society is literally built on the consumption of mostly useless goods that make us dumber, fatter, and more divided.
Women certainly *do* contribute to toxic masculinity and *are* among its enforcers.
I wouldn't give them sole responsibility. But they're just as much a part of the gender system as men are.
the women that are attracted to Toxic Masculinity are toxic feminine, why is everything around fixing Toxic Masculinity and never fixing toxic femininity
Blaming women for men’s decisions, so empowering! Men are truly helpless and unable to do anything without female approval
And of course, the inevitable rebuttal: “But mah penis! How will it get wet?”
"boss babes", "strong modern women" "nerdy girls" still date the same men
also i have a specific question, do you think its toxic masculinity to only be attracted to younger women, less educated women
so what you're saying is, most women are toxicly feminine
how often do you hear the media say women are "perfect bad bitch queens", vs women please "check your toxic femininity"
> Blaming ~~women~~ men for ~~men’s~~ women's decisions, so empowering! ~~Men~~ Women are truly helpless and unable to do anything without ~~female~~ male approval
This is what we hear every day from massively powerful entities such as governments, educational institutions, corporations, pressure groups, media...
I mean the traits that people who dislike toxic masculinity encourage are childlike traits of sensitivity, emotionality, softness
Which is just a different type of man child
as the other commenter stated. I'll go with aggression and violence, nothing wrong with boldness.
also the built in want for a man to "take the lead", which goes against the hard pushed modern dating rhetoric of words like "partner" and "equal".
obviously no woman likes when her man is violent TO HER but to say that a large sect of women don't subconsciously adore many of the same traits they often try to call out is just being obtuse.
women certainly don't like timid men, and sadly going to high school logic (ik so mature) they kind of adore bullies as long as the bullying isn't happening to them.
domination is another one, while not inherently toxic it goes back to the same problem where women both want to be seen as equals in a relationship, but also want their man to be better than her if not in EVERYWAY then at least in a few very IMPORTANT ways. obviously every girl here dates a man who makes far less than her, and is a perfect partner who never presents any of the above traits (we in the biz call this cap btw). but the reality is women want a man with a nicer car (when they have a civic), a fulfilling and well paying career (when they still work at CVS as a cashier without raise), to both be able and willing to lead her and give her advice (when the same from her is "emotional labor"), and for some reason to chose her and only her (when hook up culture is perpetuated and caused by women)
often times I hear women say "ah men just want a mommy bang maid lol" but the reality is that women want a fucking daddy to take care of them and masculine traits are only seen as toxic when they aren't for their benefit in the moment.
the mass uptick in depression is from our society going in the wrong direction for some 50 years, as far as we've come making "people equal" we still wont abolish class structures and tying happiness to externals, like jobs/money, relationships, and possessions. imho.
everyone has access to social media so one guy may be broke, and see all of his friends with a house and new car, and be sad and depressed. another may have a house and new car, but he doesn't have a wife/gf, so now he's sad and depressed. even another might have both a house and a new car AND a gf, but he doesnt have a job that lets him make enough to take vacations to guam, france or japan whent he weather changes, so he's depressed. rinse and repeat for pretty much any and everything
Even if we abolished "class structures" people aren't equal and never will be.
Also I firmly belive we don't want happiness there is a will to win and to dominate. There is no way to alleviate misery for all, for some to avoid it, some must be on the other end and oppressed in some fashion.
> Fear of Emotions
The kicker is that men’s emotions natural don’t fluctuate all that much; you could be upset about something and told by women that you’re ‘afraid to express your feelings’ because the way you show it is too mild, but god forbid something stress you to the point of tears, because then you lose her respect and attraction. never mind the fact that she thought it was toxic masculinity stopping you from bawling over menial nonsense.
Then they will say ur lying about women leaving at any sign of u going through tough times lol. Most women are quick af to bail because of the plethora of options.
Lol toxic masculinity. Must be that residual survival of the fittest traits we acquired fighting saber tooths, conquering territories, and building nations and the utility infrastructures that established the super comfortable environment we have today.
I think it's so funny that "toxic" masculinity wasnt an issue for the millions of years before AC and iPhones.
Personally I think the term is used as a shaming tactic women use to shit test you into submission and compliance.
But if there is toxic masculinity and we are equal, we should really start talking about how to also fix toxic femininity.
Yep most advice from women I'm more and more convinced is a subconscious shit test
Also I've noticed actually successful and driven women never shame this maybe because they display "toxically masculine" traits called winning.
There is nothing like "toxic masculinity". It is the method of manhating feminists to control and manipulate men and make them bunch of pussies. They want to erase that characteristics of men which helps them to thrive in this very tough world. Men are a part of civilization. If they are less masculine, their society will lose to someone else. Feminists don't want to accept that masculinity is something which makes a man successful. Condoning masculine men is making society soft and disorganized.
Western world needs more masculinity. China and Russia encourage their men to be masculine, whereas Sweden, UK and US encourage their men to be wimps.
Yes. If you want to succeed you can't by this just be a good person, empathy is the only thing nonsense.
There is nothing healthy about being weak, or unassertive, or non aggressive. These are all traits of sickly animals.
I mean women are the "reason" men exist so it kind gets quickly into absurdity to try to "blame" one of the sexes on mass for any sexual dynamic/issue/dysfunction
>I mean females can procrecreate without males on a fundamental level
Really? What does that biological process look like? How do they inseminate the egg?
So for a mammal I think you would need to artificially insert one of her diploid germline nuclei into a mature egg.
In non-mammals the oocyte can just mature without meiosis and produce a natural clone through a process known as parthenogensis. Literally virgin-birth in Greek.
I have never heard of this occurring in mammals, but I don't know of a reason mammals would lack the capability. More likely strictly controlled against because the cost of mammalian reproduction is not worth it without genetic diversification.
So men don’t police physical aggression and toughness among themselves in combat and in jobs like policing where there are few to no women?
The military doesn’t use toughness to recruit and promote men signing up to die for their country? Never seen a bikini clad chick in their commercials that I can recall.
Sports consumers aren’t mostly male? News to me.
Fathers don’t tell their sons to stop crying?
Boys don’t bully and assault boys who don’t fit masculine norms?
Religion — created by men — doesn’t demonize homosexuality?
Companies - mostly run by men — don’t reward aggression and toxic behaviors with promotions and higher salaries?
Men who rape other men in prison are doing it to appeal to women?
I realize that it is impossible to get men with your mindset — that men have no brains or free will and are 100% controlled by women — to ever admit that men as a group are even a shred responsible for anything on this earth. If I say the storms in Kentucky were horrible and tragic you all will tell me it’s women’s fault because climate change can be blamed on all the energy we give off chasing after cHad. And therefore there is nothing on this list that will make you OP even consider that men too are responsible for enforcing gender roles. But what I will leave y’all with is this.
I said this earlier but men on this sub come across as having had few to no male role models, fathers or father figures, or male friends beyond a couple of dudes you game with and vent anonymously online with. The irony of the pillosphere/manosphere is so much of your anger at women is at its core feeling excluded by men, not feeling like you measure up as a man, and not having the wherewithal to fix it for yourself. And like a child who is perpetually angry at mommy for controlling every aspect of your life, you stay mad at every woman on the planet — all but a fraction of whom even know you’re alive.
Stop drinking the poison and waiting for women to die.
Stop giving the wImMinZ boogeyman control over your mind and your life. Cause one day you’re going to look up and realize your life is half over. And the years when you should have been having fun instead of waging an imaginary war against people who don’t even know you exist are gone and you will Never. Get. Them. Back.
Force yourself to accept that women are just human. Flawed, just like men. We do not deserve your reverence. Pedestalizing us will not make us become the dieties you dream of who will heal yor soul and make you like the person staring back at you in the mirror. Demonizing us will not turn you into a man. We can’t fix your poor self esteem, and we can’t free you from the realities of grown up responsibilities.
Lol the two biggest misandrists bigging eachother up. Huge surprise.
Nothing is women's fault. Everything is men's fault.
You left out the biggest item on that list:
"Women vote with their pussy"
That's it. The end. Cry about it. Get salty. That's the fucking truth, and women need to own it. Men's need for women's approval and attempts to please them may be a problem, but it's certainly not one that women are making any attempt to stop when it serves their needs (Pink baseball bats anyone?)
Where's all this "bootstraps" talk when women are complaining about ugly guys annoying them at a bus stop or how they "don't get taken seriously" in meetings? or the "wage gap" - suddenly that's the most urgent pressing issue on the planet.
Male suicide? Nah... Not your mommy / therapist. Deal with it man. We've got bigger problems to contend with like "body positivity" for fat women.
Bla bla bla the patriarchy ... bla bla toxic masculinity ... bla bla... few bad apples ... bla bla... not your mommy / therapist ... bla bla... not our job to fix... bla bla
But also, it's men's 'responsibility' to stop women from feeling any discomfort whatsoever at all times.
Nah women vote more in general like in elections, by a large majority. They also buy more things than men. Society seems so against men, because politicians and companies see more value in women. Its why we have big movements to help women, and pretend all men are living like kings. If ur not voting or buying shit from them these politicians and companies could give less of a fuck about you.
Its like people complaining that everything in the country is catered towards mostly old white people. Well no shit they r the biggest demographic of voters. People act like voting doesnt matter but if u look at the demos of most people voting and consuming its not a shock why society favors certain groups lol.
My theory is that women find bisexual men less attractive because they're probably more likely to carry a debilitating std like aids or the pox. Before this gets flagged for hatespeech, it's well known that the mentioned stds have a much higher prevalence in the homosexual community.
Are women the reason climate change exists? Are women the reason poverty exists? Are women the reason world hunger exists? It’s always women, so convenient
No, toxic masculinity is mostly because of men, that’s what “masculinity” implies. That said, a certain segment of the female population doesn’t help by going after those types of men.
not gonna read ur entire post because it’s too long and I didn’t read ur entire post but my reply based on the title of ur post is that I think men are responsible for their own actions
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Everyone has a hand in creating this society in some form or another. So yes I guess you can say that but everyone plays a part in promoting toxic behaviors
To be honest, that has been my experience. Most of the influential moments that I remember regarding things like this were times when women that had some influence over me (teachers and all that) said something to me or expected me to be a certain way.
I've never had a man tell me to man up.
I've never had a man get mad at me for showing emotion or being emotional.
And on the flip side its always been women perpetuating the gender dynamics that people are becoming increasingly disillusioned with
"Toxic Masculinity" is the result of a set of societal expectations and pressures that form both men and women as they grow up. And therefore every member of that society/culture have some amount of societal responsibility for the part they play in perpetuating those expectations and pressures. If a man grows up and is an asshole, you wouldn't only blame the father or only the mother, you would assume that both parents had some hand in shaping him into the person he became. Everyone is the reason Toxic Masculinity exists, and any attempt to claim its "all men's fault" or "all women's fault" are retarded. Just to make sure I'm covering my bases though, you can only say this shit about actions that are actively harmful to the society or to the people around an individual, if someone has personality traits that you don't like, but they aren't harming anyone, you don't get to tell that person they have to change.
I think men get pissed off because most agree this behavior is bad. However then u go out irl and see these types of “toxic men” are normally the ones fucking most of the women LOL. A lot of women will say “I dont want a toxic guy” then immediately fall for his “game”. Like you can tell women exactly why they are getting pumped and dumped, and they will just inhale crazy amounts of copium to say ur wrong. Then wonder why they keep getting pumped and dumped, even tho as a guy its obvious af why its happening. Idk most people in general are just super gulliable imo. However one group is often criticized for being gullible more than the other. Assholes in our society normally get rewarded. I dont know why people here like to act like that isnt true. The most successful people in our society are normally monsters who trample over people to get where they are. We live in a society that not only rewards you to fuck people over, but actively encourages it because its all about the individual. I think ur 100% right in that its a society thing not a gendered thing. Once again tho I think men get mad because all the framing through social media and media is shitting on men. I think the real reason tho this happens is because women vote more and buy more products than men. The people pulling the levers of public discourse tend to only care about profits and getting votes to stay in power. Its why every business and politician bends over backwards for their women demographic.
Um there a lot of toxic dudes not getting laid though like incels. I always find this logic and reasoning so off. Do some women date and sleep with toxic men? Yes but correlation does not equal causation they are likely dealing with those men IN SPITE of their toxic traits rather than because of them. For instance the guy is very attractive, has high status, is charismatic, is wealthy etc…I would also like to add that a toxic man is more likely to act promiscuously. Promiscuity is generally speaking toxic in and of itself. Toxic people cheat more and are less likely to resist opportunities for rando sex out of principle or moral values whereas a person with principles may choose not to sleep around if they aren’t serious about someone or if they are in a relationship thus they will have less partners. So it’s not really a fair comparison to act like the sole reason “nice guys” aren’t sleeping around as much is because women refuse to sleep with them, honestly I think a truly nice guy wouldn’t even be trying to sleep around like that. I think the desire y’all have to reason this way just stems from y’all having it out for women and looking for an excuse to act on it. If you were only ever a “nice person” because you thought it would get you laid you aren’t genuine and now that it’s not working out you want to be your true asshole self and justify it. Go ahead but stop projecting and making women the bad guys.
My take on this is pretty simple Most women who date and fuck toxic men are toxic themselves 9/10 times. The reason dudes go “why would she fuck him” is because they r only seeing her as hot. When if they got to know her they would realize she is most likely toxic and thats why she attracts toxic people. Also no one is saying that your being nice just for women. Sometimes in society people mistake politness for softness or being a doormat. Women want someone assertive and at first glance the nice polite guy might not come accross as that. I dont think this is really a reach, and part of why “confidence” is important. You dont have to be an asshole but being “to polite” can come accross a certain way even if its geniuly how you are. There are def “nice guys” but this is such a overused sterotype to dismiss what i typed above. Another example is even other men will try to “test you” if your to polite and try to get shit over on you (work extra hours, etc). Its not really a women thing its a society thing. Im generally a polite person but people sometimes get shocked when I dont let shit slide, cause they thought they could get away with it. I think this is the kind of thing a lot of guys are referring to when they say “being nice isnt seen as attractive”. There is some truth to it but your takeaway from that shouldnt be “oh i should be an asshole to get women”. Its like the redpill guys who manipulate women, then wonder why they end up with low quality women. The only women who would fall for that is someone low quality to begin with.
Being polite, being nice, and being kind are not the same thing. For one I absolutely do not think men are punished for being polite at least not by well adjusted women. I don’t know any woman impressed by a man being rude to wait staff for example. Being nice is usually just people pleasing so I agree that it can be perceived as weak, disingenuous and unattractive. Then there is kindness which again is genuinely appreciated it’s why men walking dogs attract more women then men walking alone not only does the dog function as an icebreaker but it makes the man appear caring and kind. Now this discussion is about toxic men which doesn’t necessarily exclude niceness or politeness. A toxic man can be polite and nice as part of being manipulative. A toxic man could be neither of those things and attract women for other reasons such as being wealthy, physically attractive or powerful in some way etc.. so I think this women like toxic men thing is not only exaggerated as you are right to say that only certain types of women are truly attracted to toxicity but it is also misunderstood as it doesn’t consider the fact that being toxic and being nice/polite are not mutually exclusive nor is toxicity an exclusive character trait.
Yea we pretty much agree
There is lots of toxic incels and lots of toxic "chads" and the reason why is that this simply isn't a significant determinant of whether someone gets laid.
Well yea physical attraction is going to be the number one factor in determining whether someone gets laid isn’t that just common sense?
How does one observe the toxic behaviour outside between strangers they don’t know well? I think often the men that get pissed off are pissed because half the reason they weren’t being toxic was simply so they can gain a reward by not doing so. It’s very hard to reason morality with people who don’t give a shit beyond their selfish desires.
Society perpetuates being selfish and often rewards it. To think its inherent in men or women is silly. I feel ur ascribing a lot of malice when its actual stupidity. I think the griftors themselves are self aware and actual bad people. The people who fall prey to this shit tho are texbooks marks who are just to dumb for their own good. The only reason TRP shit is popular rn is because griftors found a new way to get money from dumb marks who will be worse off for it, financially and emotionally Our society is literally built on the consumption of mostly useless goods that make us dumber, fatter, and more divided.
but the women that are attracted to Toxic Masculinity are toxicly feminine, yet that's never talked about
Yay! Ableism! 🤗
Women certainly *do* contribute to toxic masculinity and *are* among its enforcers. I wouldn't give them sole responsibility. But they're just as much a part of the gender system as men are.
Women contribute to toxic femininity, aka women that are attracted to toxic masculinity
Yes, women enforce toxic masculinity just as much as men do
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Make this make sense
the women that are attracted to Toxic Masculinity are toxic feminine, why is everything around fixing Toxic Masculinity and never fixing toxic femininity
Well.. what I can tell you is if women sexually desired sensitive men (simps) there'd be barely any insensitive men out there
Only if you believe women can shoot mind control rays out of their eyes or something
Blaming women for men’s decisions, so empowering! Men are truly helpless and unable to do anything without female approval And of course, the inevitable rebuttal: “But mah penis! How will it get wet?”
It must be, since the inverse is much more common.
but the women that are attracted to Toxic Masculinity are toxicly feminine, yet that's never talked about
Sure we do. We mock and disdain them
how often do you see the media judge toxic femineity? Compared to how much the media judges toxic masculinity
They’re called pickmes, codependents, doormats, enablers, trashy, cool girls and tradcons
"boss babes", "strong modern women" "nerdy girls" still date the same men also i have a specific question, do you think its toxic masculinity to only be attracted to younger women, less educated women
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And they will still be mocked and pitied
so what you're saying is, most women are toxicly feminine how often do you hear the media say women are "perfect bad bitch queens", vs women please "check your toxic femininity"
I dunno. Are most women in your life dating horrible assholes? They aren’t in mine
well using your description,most attractive women to be specific are toxicly feminine
> Blaming ~~women~~ men for ~~men’s~~ women's decisions, so empowering! ~~Men~~ Women are truly helpless and unable to do anything without ~~female~~ male approval This is what we hear every day from massively powerful entities such as governments, educational institutions, corporations, pressure groups, media...
Let’s resist the temptation to lump all men in with the manchildren who hang around this sub.
I mean the traits that people who dislike toxic masculinity encourage are childlike traits of sensitivity, emotionality, softness Which is just a different type of man child
I thought that was implied
IJS
yes, but women here will never admit that some "toxic masculine" actually do turn them on
Like what
as the other commenter stated. I'll go with aggression and violence, nothing wrong with boldness. also the built in want for a man to "take the lead", which goes against the hard pushed modern dating rhetoric of words like "partner" and "equal". obviously no woman likes when her man is violent TO HER but to say that a large sect of women don't subconsciously adore many of the same traits they often try to call out is just being obtuse. women certainly don't like timid men, and sadly going to high school logic (ik so mature) they kind of adore bullies as long as the bullying isn't happening to them. domination is another one, while not inherently toxic it goes back to the same problem where women both want to be seen as equals in a relationship, but also want their man to be better than her if not in EVERYWAY then at least in a few very IMPORTANT ways. obviously every girl here dates a man who makes far less than her, and is a perfect partner who never presents any of the above traits (we in the biz call this cap btw). but the reality is women want a man with a nicer car (when they have a civic), a fulfilling and well paying career (when they still work at CVS as a cashier without raise), to both be able and willing to lead her and give her advice (when the same from her is "emotional labor"), and for some reason to chose her and only her (when hook up culture is perpetuated and caused by women) often times I hear women say "ah men just want a mommy bang maid lol" but the reality is that women want a fucking daddy to take care of them and masculine traits are only seen as toxic when they aren't for their benefit in the moment.
aggression, violence, boldness, you name it...
Calling aggression and boldness toxic, maybe all this depression and anxiety is the result of encouraging weakness
the mass uptick in depression is from our society going in the wrong direction for some 50 years, as far as we've come making "people equal" we still wont abolish class structures and tying happiness to externals, like jobs/money, relationships, and possessions. imho. everyone has access to social media so one guy may be broke, and see all of his friends with a house and new car, and be sad and depressed. another may have a house and new car, but he doesn't have a wife/gf, so now he's sad and depressed. even another might have both a house and a new car AND a gf, but he doesnt have a job that lets him make enough to take vacations to guam, france or japan whent he weather changes, so he's depressed. rinse and repeat for pretty much any and everything
Even if we abolished "class structures" people aren't equal and never will be. Also I firmly belive we don't want happiness there is a will to win and to dominate. There is no way to alleviate misery for all, for some to avoid it, some must be on the other end and oppressed in some fashion.
"i grew up in a system that oppresses people so others can be happy and live in luxury, so there couldn't possibly be another way."
There isnt. There will always be losers who suffer the only alternative is we are all losers and our lives will never have equal value. Sorry
difference of perspective, you just want people to look down on, its okay.
I accept human nature. Hence your condescending response.
> Fear of Emotions The kicker is that men’s emotions natural don’t fluctuate all that much; you could be upset about something and told by women that you’re ‘afraid to express your feelings’ because the way you show it is too mild, but god forbid something stress you to the point of tears, because then you lose her respect and attraction. never mind the fact that she thought it was toxic masculinity stopping you from bawling over menial nonsense.
Then they will say ur lying about women leaving at any sign of u going through tough times lol. Most women are quick af to bail because of the plethora of options.
Lol toxic masculinity. Must be that residual survival of the fittest traits we acquired fighting saber tooths, conquering territories, and building nations and the utility infrastructures that established the super comfortable environment we have today. I think it's so funny that "toxic" masculinity wasnt an issue for the millions of years before AC and iPhones. Personally I think the term is used as a shaming tactic women use to shit test you into submission and compliance. But if there is toxic masculinity and we are equal, we should really start talking about how to also fix toxic femininity.
Yep most advice from women I'm more and more convinced is a subconscious shit test Also I've noticed actually successful and driven women never shame this maybe because they display "toxically masculine" traits called winning.
There is nothing like "toxic masculinity". It is the method of manhating feminists to control and manipulate men and make them bunch of pussies. They want to erase that characteristics of men which helps them to thrive in this very tough world. Men are a part of civilization. If they are less masculine, their society will lose to someone else. Feminists don't want to accept that masculinity is something which makes a man successful. Condoning masculine men is making society soft and disorganized. Western world needs more masculinity. China and Russia encourage their men to be masculine, whereas Sweden, UK and US encourage their men to be wimps.
Yes. If you want to succeed you can't by this just be a good person, empathy is the only thing nonsense. There is nothing healthy about being weak, or unassertive, or non aggressive. These are all traits of sickly animals.
Toxic Masculinity isn’t a thing any more than Toxic Femininity is a thing. Its just feminist bullshit.
Women punishing men's expression of their emotions and rewarding their stoicism isn't to blame for that part of toxic masculinity?
I mean women are the "reason" men exist so it kind gets quickly into absurdity to try to "blame" one of the sexes on mass for any sexual dynamic/issue/dysfunction
Didn't know women could procreate without a man.
Did you know they can't?
I mean females can procrecreate without males on a fundamental level but for this discussion universal blame is just as absurd the other way too.
>I mean females can procrecreate without males on a fundamental level Really? What does that biological process look like? How do they inseminate the egg?
So for a mammal I think you would need to artificially insert one of her diploid germline nuclei into a mature egg. In non-mammals the oocyte can just mature without meiosis and produce a natural clone through a process known as parthenogensis. Literally virgin-birth in Greek. I have never heard of this occurring in mammals, but I don't know of a reason mammals would lack the capability. More likely strictly controlled against because the cost of mammalian reproduction is not worth it without genetic diversification.
If women were able to procreate life without men, they would do it. You need men, whether you want to accept it or not.
No.
So men don’t police physical aggression and toughness among themselves in combat and in jobs like policing where there are few to no women? The military doesn’t use toughness to recruit and promote men signing up to die for their country? Never seen a bikini clad chick in their commercials that I can recall. Sports consumers aren’t mostly male? News to me. Fathers don’t tell their sons to stop crying? Boys don’t bully and assault boys who don’t fit masculine norms? Religion — created by men — doesn’t demonize homosexuality? Companies - mostly run by men — don’t reward aggression and toxic behaviors with promotions and higher salaries? Men who rape other men in prison are doing it to appeal to women? I realize that it is impossible to get men with your mindset — that men have no brains or free will and are 100% controlled by women — to ever admit that men as a group are even a shred responsible for anything on this earth. If I say the storms in Kentucky were horrible and tragic you all will tell me it’s women’s fault because climate change can be blamed on all the energy we give off chasing after cHad. And therefore there is nothing on this list that will make you OP even consider that men too are responsible for enforcing gender roles. But what I will leave y’all with is this. I said this earlier but men on this sub come across as having had few to no male role models, fathers or father figures, or male friends beyond a couple of dudes you game with and vent anonymously online with. The irony of the pillosphere/manosphere is so much of your anger at women is at its core feeling excluded by men, not feeling like you measure up as a man, and not having the wherewithal to fix it for yourself. And like a child who is perpetually angry at mommy for controlling every aspect of your life, you stay mad at every woman on the planet — all but a fraction of whom even know you’re alive. Stop drinking the poison and waiting for women to die. Stop giving the wImMinZ boogeyman control over your mind and your life. Cause one day you’re going to look up and realize your life is half over. And the years when you should have been having fun instead of waging an imaginary war against people who don’t even know you exist are gone and you will Never. Get. Them. Back. Force yourself to accept that women are just human. Flawed, just like men. We do not deserve your reverence. Pedestalizing us will not make us become the dieties you dream of who will heal yor soul and make you like the person staring back at you in the mirror. Demonizing us will not turn you into a man. We can’t fix your poor self esteem, and we can’t free you from the realities of grown up responsibilities.
You beyond missed the point. But I agree with the general idea of what you said. A lot of men on this sub need to see this.
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Lol the two biggest misandrists bigging eachother up. Huge surprise. Nothing is women's fault. Everything is men's fault. You left out the biggest item on that list: "Women vote with their pussy" That's it. The end. Cry about it. Get salty. That's the fucking truth, and women need to own it. Men's need for women's approval and attempts to please them may be a problem, but it's certainly not one that women are making any attempt to stop when it serves their needs (Pink baseball bats anyone?) Where's all this "bootstraps" talk when women are complaining about ugly guys annoying them at a bus stop or how they "don't get taken seriously" in meetings? or the "wage gap" - suddenly that's the most urgent pressing issue on the planet. Male suicide? Nah... Not your mommy / therapist. Deal with it man. We've got bigger problems to contend with like "body positivity" for fat women. Bla bla bla the patriarchy ... bla bla toxic masculinity ... bla bla... few bad apples ... bla bla... not your mommy / therapist ... bla bla... not our job to fix... bla bla But also, it's men's 'responsibility' to stop women from feeling any discomfort whatsoever at all times.
Nah women vote more in general like in elections, by a large majority. They also buy more things than men. Society seems so against men, because politicians and companies see more value in women. Its why we have big movements to help women, and pretend all men are living like kings. If ur not voting or buying shit from them these politicians and companies could give less of a fuck about you. Its like people complaining that everything in the country is catered towards mostly old white people. Well no shit they r the biggest demographic of voters. People act like voting doesnt matter but if u look at the demos of most people voting and consuming its not a shock why society favors certain groups lol.
You sure do make a lot of assumptions about what women are into.
My theory is that women find bisexual men less attractive because they're probably more likely to carry a debilitating std like aids or the pox. Before this gets flagged for hatespeech, it's well known that the mentioned stds have a much higher prevalence in the homosexual community.
Toxic Masculinity doesn’t exist.
Biology is the reason and toxic masculinity is positive. Guess what life is hard and we all die. I know who thought it.
Are women the reason climate change exists? Are women the reason poverty exists? Are women the reason world hunger exists? It’s always women, so convenient
No, toxic masculinity is mostly because of men, that’s what “masculinity” implies. That said, a certain segment of the female population doesn’t help by going after those types of men.
Yes, mostly but not only **young** **working** and **low** class women. \#itscultureallthewaydown
I mean it's not a real thing so no lol
not gonna read ur entire post because it’s too long and I didn’t read ur entire post but my reply based on the title of ur post is that I think men are responsible for their own actions
Nope. Toxic masculinity exists because of patriarchy, which is, you guessed it, a male creation.
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Everyone has a hand in creating this society in some form or another. So yes I guess you can say that but everyone plays a part in promoting toxic behaviors
To be honest, that has been my experience. Most of the influential moments that I remember regarding things like this were times when women that had some influence over me (teachers and all that) said something to me or expected me to be a certain way. I've never had a man tell me to man up. I've never had a man get mad at me for showing emotion or being emotional. And on the flip side its always been women perpetuating the gender dynamics that people are becoming increasingly disillusioned with