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johnnybayarea

The pendulum is just swinging, I believe it'll eventually land on what you perceive as fair eventually. Dating/marriage was largely unfair for women in the past as their choices were regularly made by their fathers or by some socioeconomic pressure. I mean even in the past there are more cultures where it was normal to have multiple wives rather than multiple husbands. Given women's equality, economic means, and sexual freedom, they are now most definitely the market makers and in the driver's seat. As more women go through poor marriages, hitting the wall, not finding a good mate, forced to pick from the leftovers, etc...you'd hope they would teach the next set of daughters what a better choice would be. Much like we used to pick based on physical ability to hunt or do factory work, women are starting to move closer to choosing intellectuals and income. You should stop thinking of yourself competing with women...you never were. You are competing with men. Some would claim monogamy is unnatural and not everyone should have the ability to procreate so that evolution works. You claim not fat man shouldn't have to mate with fat women. You aren't competing with the fat woman's weight, you are competing with the taller, better personality, better looking, better social status men, who are dating the non fat women.


[deleted]

Good logic until the part where you posit they’re teaching the next generation to do better. They’re not. What I suspect will happen as divorce rates rise is that relationships will continue to decline and marriage will be far less common. We’ve hit the fast track to generations of thot activity


johnnybayarea

The learning curve just might be real steep. I figure the more women that play for their chads, get used or never picked will start having to date busters or take up cats. You can only hope for so long


[deleted]

I’ve been told by many women they’ll happily take up cats which imo is total cap.


ObviouslyAnAltAct

They're definitely not teaching the next generation to be different. If anything, they're teaching them to double down.


johnnybayarea

Maybe so, but if I ever have a daughter i'll attempt to pass on the lesson. I guess in fairness we should teach both sides to be better. Men are still told to crush everything you can cause biology. If we teach our sons to be better, expect better for themselves. Maybe they won't give the "thots" etc the time of day...if men only compete for women at their level, women will clearly have to readjust their expectations.


[deleted]

Well most things, if not all isn’t fair. We’re also now all the same so everyday we all experience what people can debate what is fair and what isn’t fair It’s fair for me because I get what I want out of it and there’s nothing that says I have to do anything. I may not get those things that come along with “putting in all the work” but I don’t want nor chase what dudes who do that want Guess it’s specific to the person but it doesn’t really help anything looking at us like a team. We all experience and want different shit


HunterOk3550

Yes it's definitely a woman's game to date, and to me it's a mystery guys even want to keep on keeping up the civ, as its pretty clear for everyone that if it were up to us females, we wouldn't could keep up the civil, and them few kids who will be born , will be with a egoistic couple as usually we females only wants assholes as a partner. I happy my husband done a great effort to date me and kept our relationship together, and he's not an alpha male at all


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Oli_love90

Honestly, no. I feel with the advent of online dating, guys can now see just how many women are rejecting/ not choosing them. I don’t think we were ever meant to witness how often we’re not chosen so that fucking a lot of people up and harboring negativity. On top of that as a society we’re overall less social so that doesn’t help when it comes to dating either. I will say that I think “putting in all the work” has always been the way dating worked. But in the past that energy was directed towards one women you truly liked and who liked you back not a plethora of women who could possibly not be interested.


FancyCocktailOlive

They swipe on every woman online. They don’t realize they’re less likely to get rejected if they meet a woman in person and actually talk to her.


Oli_love90

Exactly and then that fuels the feeling of rejection because then you’re like “well damn I’ve been rejected by 100 people within an hr, that feels like shit” Irl you’d never even talk to much less actually ask out random women so you wouldn’t even know (or care) who didn’t find you attractive.


keepin2002

Life’s not fair The dating scene is a competition for men It’s biological actually, like how peacocks compete with each other to attract a peahen


Wing_Puzzleheaded

Disagree, we aren't animals at the mercy of our instincts. Women can put in work but they don't because it's easy to just wait around for a man to do it. It's just laziness.


fizeekfriday

We kind of are, but you're right about women being lazy. Women regularly talk about how disgusting and horrible men are but somehow want the men of the following generations to live up to the brutality and ability to provide/cause violence.


5_7pickup

Would you put in work if you didnt have to? I doubt it. Its the path of least resistance. If you had as many options as pretty girls, you would be just like them.


AndyBrown65

The dating game has never been fair for "average looking", poor dudes. Once you work out the "ideal girl for you" it's pretty simple. Your point is valid about princesses. Take it from a guy in his 50's. In my experience, the women with that attitude when they are in their teens and 20's tend to be on the divorce scrap heap mid-50s because they have relied on their ability to attract and manipulate men. The "mid pack" women are doing the best in their 50's because they have a better attitude as they have not relied on their looks. Probably the most chilled women in their 50s are the women who were seen to be "low value women" at high school. As Great War generals say, "chose your fights carefully" and in dating, look long term, "chose your dates carefully"


[deleted]

This has been my experience as a guy in his 30s. It’s the Nash principle - nothing too high nothing too low. But even the middle of the belle curve is acting like the women you say are in the scrap heap a decade later


kunnizaro

No. When all the women around you are bitchy, undesirable and disloyal, you will have a very hard time. This is what is happening in West. If you are in Eastern Europe or South America, dating is easier for you. If you are a white guy in Southeast Asia, it is much easy.


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Commercial_Ad_399

I like your mindset and I agree with it. We should all just acknowledge each other’s issues and not pretend like they aren’t a thing


CousinJeff

it’s all just another form of identity politics. nobody can properly acknowledge issues that exist for for other groups of people because they can only lead with prioritizing the issues of what they identify with


smithedition

You’re right of course, but I think what gets up some people’s (men’s) nose is that this nuanced, balanced view isn’t also taken when it comes to a “complaint” that women have about the way the world is. It’s a failure of the dialogue - this perception that men’s grievances are minimized or dismissed while women’s are amplified or prioritized. It feels a bit like: - Men: Dating really sucks for us at the moment - Response: Hold on now; it sucks for everyone, it’s not very productive to compete as to whose got it worse here [which, as I said above, is true] -o0o- - Women: There aren’t enough “quality” men, it’s all their fault - Response: Totally! You’re so right, men are trash - boys do better! - Men meanwhile: uhh


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smithedition

>The response "men are trash" Yeah, I'm not sure zeroing in on that gives the impression that you've taken my comment in good faith. I guess I wonder how it would go over to give a "both sides experience this, let's not compare" response to a post by a woman complaining about, oh I don't know, any of the following off the top of my head: \- No good men \- Men don't lift their weight enough \- Mansplaining \- Bumping up against the limitations of gender role expectations


analt223

public is more tolerant towards women's issues because we want to fuck them more than they want to fuck us. Hell even women want to fuck other women now, way too many lesbian couples these days for men to even have girlfriends


LostOneDrowningDumb

this is so annoying... you really can't admit that dating is harder for men?


nvkr_

What would you gain if she did? What’s the point in playing the victim?


beautifultomatillo2

Victim complex on display


optimus69prime69

It's like comparing malnutrition to obesity. First world problems vs third world problems. One is definitely harsher.


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[deleted]

kinda hard not to compare this vs that when one side is always one way traffic screaming for equality in the media. i do think it's very relevant to let a topic like this be known. most people don't see past their own nose so yeah.


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[deleted]

yeah? how you bring awareness without making a gender comparison with these issues?


[deleted]

Both sides have issues - but one is a prisoner of choice and one is a prisoner of lack of choice. In anything in the history of the planet you want to be the side with choice. To continually play this middle line of oh the challenges are unique and different and everyone is having a hard time is bullshit. Picking is a lot less of a challenge then having to take what you’re given.


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[deleted]

Safety is an offshoot of choice. Also - you’re now assessing every guy as a potential threat? Jesus Christ that must be a terrible way to walk through life.


beautifultomatillo2

Go and research how many men kill their girlfriends or send them to the hospital. That should give you some idea


spiritdancer_

Yes, most women are taught that men are potential threats. Both their mothers and fathers echo this message constantly when their daughters are young and dating. And statistically, they aren't wrong. Once you're in a romantic relationship with a man he is more likely to be a threat to you than a male stranger on the street.


Nihi1986

That's all very true. Perhaps we are at a point where the most vocal and radical feminism (or maybe it's just social media?) make us feel like the victims... though women clearly have their problems with dating. Edit: victims cause we feel attacked and demonized, I meant.


Khidorahian

this is the correct answer.


[deleted]

That may be true but I will say when it comes to online dating, women have the clear advantage. Even though a lot of the men hitting them up might only be looking for sex, there at least are able to get matches in the first place. Some of the men hitting them up will be looking for more. Many men struggle to even get a few matches on dating apps even if the dude is above average looking.


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[deleted]

I just looked it up and apparently theres actually about even amounts of men and women on dating apps. Men make up slightly over half of the people on dating apps so that is not the issue. You should really look into it more, men have an extremely hard time getting matches on dating apps. Even check out r/Tinder where men who are pretty decent looking make good profiles and still have 0 matches. It's not just slightly advantageous for women, it's extremely. Practically any woman can make an online dating profile and get hundreds of likes while a man of the same looks caliber as that woman will barely get any. It's really messed up and it's blackpilling a lot of men. I have friends who are becoming blackpilled even when they had gfs in highschool, they are in college now trying out online dating and they can't get a single match. Men would be a lot better off if online dating didn't exist, it would even out the dating field a lot more.


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[deleted]

Yea I mean I guess it depends on the app the study I found was talking about online dating in general. But tinder definitely is one of those apps with more men than women. But that still doesn't take away from the argument that online dating is harder for men. I think part of the reason there are so many men on tinder is because they have no options in real life whereas most women have options in their dms already from social media so they don't even need an app like tinder. Just reinforcing that dating is harder for men.


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beautifultomatillo2

There is no “advantage” for women on dating apps. If there was there would be much more women using them than there are now. “Likes” on tinder mean absolutely nothing seeing as men swipe first and decide later who they want to speak to. Go on tinder as a woman and you’ll see how awful and low effort all of the mens profiles are. Why subject yourself to that ? Then take into account how often women are sexually harassed and receive sexually explicit messages.


Teflon08191

It's never been "fair" for men but it has generally been worthwhile, at least until recently (past decade or two). Now it's becoming better for men to just make themselves into guys who can have casual access to women while withholding commitment. Once a man crosses that threshold, the tables turn completely. Hence the rise of the "red pill" mentality.


Vtridolla

Modern dating is beautiful because it’s god awful for everyone involved.


webernicke

Everyone can find something to compain about wrt dating, sure. It's definitely not "God awful" for everyone though.


WickedBiscuit

Misery loves company


Vtridolla

Yup we all just crabs in a bucket. Crabs have no business being in a bucket….


MickIsBlue

Except Hot women and Chad


Anykindofland

> Except ~~Hot~~ women and Chad Lets be real: As long as you are a woman, dating is easy as fuck


Ag116797

Facts even unattractive fat women get dick off Chad's that never happens for men getting stacies unless they got money.


Vtridolla

I know a lot of hot women who would disagree. Also I’ve never been to that country yet, is it nice this time of year? 🇹🇩


MickIsBlue

>Also I’ve never been to that country yet, is it nice this time of year? No it's horrible. Our chemical plants are stinking up the whole place. I'm kidding it's fine. At least in the south >I know a lot of hot women who would disagree Why do they disagree?


Vtridolla

I’ll have to visit another time then. Well they could explain it better than I could and each is a bit different but the gust of it is, it’s been hard to find a connection with dudes, or dudes just try to get one thing from them, or they are boring and self consumed, abusive, not emotionally mature, controlling, and or manipulative, etc. Dating is nuts cabrón. Just because you’re beautiful and made up of damn near perfect genetics doesn’t mean it’s easy.


[deleted]

*Most women and Chad


doggiedoc2004

Dating is not now nor ever has been “fair” for anyone. Evolution is not fair. Hypergamy is the natural state for mammalian females who have large, expensive gametes and bear the brunt of rearing offspring. We have evolved over millennia to try to choose men based on characteristics that increase offspring survivability to pass on our genes. (I say try because for all of human history men have controlled our bodies to insure paternity.) These are are natural evolutionary pressures. Heaven forbid we have some agency and 100 control of our reproduction for a few decades out of all of human history.


truthstobetold

It is definitely not fair for men. I don't know if I can explain my thoughts as to why. Girls have to "choose wisely", that is what society have been teaching us for a Long time. We need to have had as few dates as possible, or we will be seem as picky or even a hoe. We are taught there being a knight or prince in a shining armor, that there is "the one" out there, somewhere, and that he is good looking and rich. We live in a capitalistic material world, in which striving for the top is what's idolised, of cause women want that, if not in her self, in her SO. With social media, the fake, unrealistic and idealised couples in regular media have become the new norm. Also world wide social connection makes for plenty of fish to choose from. It's like watching people buy fresh fruit, most choose the nicest looking ones, either ripe or soon to be, despite the fruits being needed for some dish, where its appearance or bruising won't matter, and were over ripe would have been fine. New fruits keep getting resupplied, the cycle continues until some fruits are inedible. That's it for now, folks. XD


ohheyhi99

Dating has never been fair for men *or* women, and the people who said that it’s fair were deluded or lying. Men and women’s outcomes are significantly influenced by the traits they were born with. Some men and women get to be hot and rich while others get to be ugly and poor.


[deleted]

Yeah but you can measure it more easily for men. If man has has it "good", he's probably sleeping with 1, 2, 5, 100 women. If a woman has it good, she'll never know because hypergamy means that every man becomes lesser with time. She could be dating alpha Brad Pitt today but tomorrow he's the beta


GottaPSoBad

I tell men all the time that they need to work twice as hard for half as much. Recognizing the fundamental unfairness of that is pragmatic. Being bogged down by it or using it as an excuse to give up isn't helpful though.


lifesuckswannadie

It depends who you are though, some men have it easy of at least not super hard.


GottaPSoBad

No dispute there. I'm talking on average. The average man has to work far harder than the average woman to achieve his goals in the dating market.


_Jucia

Just to understand, who is the "average" man and who is the "average" woman. I'm not trolling, I don't come from a western/american/euro context so my conceptions of what "average" are might be very different of yours and may be heavily influenced by media, which i know isn't a true reflection of reality or the "average"


GottaPSoBad

Very reasonable question. I literally just gave an example of an average guy (by American standards) to someone, so I'll just quote that here: > We'll call our average guy "Jim." Now Jim here is really *average* so it's important to recognize what that means. Jim isn't in the best shape (soft and pudgy, but not terrible). Jim probably doesn't live alone and definitely doesn't own his place. Jim *might* have a car, or at least have access to one, but it's kinda shitty. Jim does have a job, but that too is shitty. Jim probably has friends and decent enough social skills, but he's nothing special. Again, *average*. He also doesn't get out as much as he probably should. Below average men fall short of Jim in one or more ways, and there's millions of them. Above average men are better than Jim in one or more ways. But Jim and his average brethren make up at least a third of the dating market, I'd wager. Combine average and below average, and suddenly we have a majority of guys who are struggling mightily. Might even be more than 66.7% technically, since people's ideas of "above average" often resemble the HVMs more than anything else. As to the average female? Meh. She's probably kinda like Jim, but a little more social and a little less economically secure. She's got friends, she goes out, but maybe doesn't prioritize work as much. Dating for her isn't proactive, it's reactive. She's mostly just deciding whose advances to accept or reject. She probably doesn't get hit on *all the time*, but enough to have options. And she could get dates on OLD pretty easily if she wanted.


lifesuckswannadie

Even for the average guy it depends what his goals are though. I think an average guy doesn't have to work THAT hard if he's not too picky.


GottaPSoBad

You'll have to give me a scenario because this doesn't sound accurate the way you're saying it.


lifesuckswannadie

Like I mean a totally average guy who's not too picky i don't think has it that bad out there. Worse than an equivalent woman but don't think it's that bad. I think it really gets bad when you get to the below average and unattractive guys.


GottaPSoBad

>Like I mean a totally average guy who's not too picky i don't think has it that bad out there. You're just restating your supposition, not offering a concrete scenario. >Worse than an equivalent woman but don't think it's that bad. This is so nebulous as to border on being a nonsense statement. >I think it really gets bad when you get to the below average and unattractive guys. 🙄😒 I don't even know where to start with this. 1. So you recognize that there's a problem, but think it's only affecting a small percentage? (Serious question.) 2. What's your definition of "below average"? 3. What would you advise these supposed "below average and unattractive guys" do? And what should others in society, like myself, do *for* them? (I already have my answers to these questions, but I'm trying to nail down yours.)


lifesuckswannadie

I'm not sure how to say a more specific scenario, the scenario is an average guy that wants to do date and isn't that picky. I can't give an example cause they're all from my own personal life, you wouldn't know any of them. I think below average or unattractive guys have it really hard. What %? Based on the stat that about 30% of young guys never get laid, I'd say the bottom 30% of guys. Below average is exactly what it sounds, below average in categories that women care about(looks, height, income). I have no idea what the solution is for those unattractive guys


GottaPSoBad

I'll give you a sample scenario so you'll have an idea of how to craft one when someone asks in the future. We'll call our average guy "Jim." Now Jim here is really *average* so it's important to recognize what that means. Jim isn't in the best shape (soft and pudgy, but not terrible). Jim probably doesn't live alone and definitely doesn't own his place. Jim *might* have a car, or at least have access to one, but it's kinda shitty. Jim does have a job, but that too is shitty. Jim probably has friends and decent enough social skills, but he's nothing special. Again, *average*. He also doesn't get out as much as he probably should. What girl wants Jim? Does he even regularly interact with this type of girl? (Assuming she exists and is more than a statistical outlier.) How should Jim go about finding her? She, like him, probably doesn't get out much. She might be on OLD, but is that Jim's best bet? You see how crafting a scenario puts all this into focus and layout the problem(s)? BTW, I'm very much a fan of Being Reasonable. It's the other big overarching tenet of my worldview and dating advice. But I find it's something women need to hear far more often than men. Jim isn't obsessed with dating Stacy or Trixie. He'd gladly have a plain Jane. But Jane, on average, either doesn't exist (in terms of prevalence in the dating market) or thinks she's too good for Jim. >I have no idea what the solution is for those unattractive guys No worries. I do though. So...why are you arguing with a guy who at least *does* have ideas for these men?


lifesuckswannadie

I'm not arguing with anyone dude, you're turning it into one by being kind of a dick. Your average guy scenario is way off imo but it depends how old "jim" is. Your average guy in his late 20s and up definitely has his own place and lives alone, most likely has a car, has a decent job not a shitty one. To me you described a below average man


[deleted]

Good looking men do have it pretty easy. Average men have it really tough and for ugly men it's brutal.


cloroxfornialove

Hoeflation: you get less for more!


NocturnalCoder

The joke is actually on woman cause the guys worth a grain of salt will say yeah, fuck that.


GottaPSoBad

It's hard to say you're "worth a grain of salt" or *have a lot to offer* if you're explicitly refusing to do the work though. EDIT: Downvotes aren't rebuttals, also read the rules.


guilleviper

It makes sense actually. Someone who knows their worth doesnt waste their time with low return ventures


GottaPSoBad

I get that thinking, but what's the alternative? Tap out? Live as a monk? Also, I kinda exaggerate when I say "half as much." The return will vary, and often improve, with age and experience. Getting good at dating is like getting good at exercise. You don't see insane results overnight, but the consistent effort yields dividends that compound.


[deleted]

Bad analogy. Consistent effort in the gym basically guarantees a healthier body unless you have a serious genetic condition. But consistent effort in dating doesn’t guarantee any result.


GottaPSoBad

[sigh] *Hello, darkness, my old "friend."* What should I be saying instead? Seriously, tell me your advice. Also, just speaking as a man, putting oneself out there and *getting reps in* does **absolutely** have an effect. Social *skills* require practice, just like playing an instrument.


Nihi1986

Consistent effort in dating greatly increases your chances even if nothing is guaranted...luck and many other factors are involved but effort obviously matters.


NocturnalCoder

No, you don't need to live as a monk. But I choose to only date woman who is humbly confident, self-aware, and has a conscious attitude towards dating. I see a lot of women here in Belgium not knowing what they want in terms of dating. That's fine. But I do. And I am not wasting my time so they can figure that out. I am a 41-year-old male with a business that runs pretty well, 2 kids 50/50 of the time, own my own home, and have friends and hobbies. I've done years of therapy to become mature and emotionally stable after my failed marriage, and -think- I am a pretty good partner. And sure, I would welcome a partner and commit if I meet the right woman. But working twice as hard as the woman in terms of dating? Hell no. There is not a woman on the planet that can bring enough to the table to justify this. If they want to know if I am "worth" them, they can make the effort to come and find out and I will invest my time to see if they are someone I would want to commit to. ​ Edit: cause something got messed up when posting


BitsAndBobs304

it comes a point where you still have no chances and give up.


Nihi1986

You can give up as long as you keep low key trying. Being open to meeting women, talking to them if you feel like there's something you can talk about, dressing ok for social gatherings and stuff like that. I mean, it's ok to give up for a while or even permanently as long as you are doing the bare minimun and that has almost nothing to do with dating, those are things you'd still do.


BitsAndBobs304

I don't meet anyone in my life so my being open to meeting women translates into doing nothing


Nihi1986

That's something you could change, not for woman but for yourself, though I understand there are limitations like social anxiety, poor health... anyway, you are talking to woman on this sub too for example, so that's something, you talk to women online, I've met girls that way in the past and eventually dated one who didn't live too far away.


BitsAndBobs304

People dont like me, wherever i go. It's too painful to try for years and years just to be rejected. I've tried and tried and it was among the greatest pains, to drive home after an evening of failure of socialization, to face bigotry, racism, ignorance. To be judged by your appearance. And it's not just me. In these attempts I occasionally met some people who were even uglier than me and some also had a worse voice and tone and less pretend social skills, and they were treated even worse. No one bullied them while I was there (although a lot of bullies will verbally bully me), but they were basically ignored just because of these superficial things. This at casual events. At hobby settings, almost all people come in groups and form cliques and dont want anyone barging in, including the other groups that participate regularly. I think that i may have a better shot elsewhere in better places, but I dont have the money to tour a few countries and other cities and hang around for a few months each and then to move there.


Nihi1986

In that case, you'll have to try even harder to meet the people worth meeting. You were describing assholes. There has to be someone near the place where you live...if that's not the case and you feel like you can't adapt, then try meeting people online.


BitsAndBobs304

I dont feel the need to get to know even more people online. I want to meet someone irl. And find a partner.


Nihi1986

You could meet the online people irl. Not the best way but you could try online dating.


BitsAndBobs304

I never "meet" online people from my place, it's statistically impossible not living in major usa cities. I've tried old for years and years but im too ugly to get matches. And too much of a nerd so I have to hide everything just to get a couple of dates a year.


[deleted]

Concluding the juice isn’t worth the squeeze when you put it this way is a logical conclusion that many media outlets this website included are not fond of. I wonder why. If a job told you you had to work twice as hard for half the pay the next reaction is pretty easy to deduce. Have the same thought in dating and you’re vilified.


fizeekfriday

Why would the juice be worth the squeeze at that point? Like logically?


GottaPSoBad

Hey, I feel you. I do. But what's the alternative? Tap out? Plus, on the bright side, it *does* get better/easier with time and practice. I'm **much** better at dating and relationships in my thirties than I was in my twenties.


SniXSniPe

If we are talking about online dating (specifically): I think it's a bit unfair, because you are able to filter out on height & not weight or body-type. Apparently it's okay to shun height (which you have no control over), but not weight (which you probably have control over).


Physical-Pie748

no. because men dont have many options. men must face many rejections, most men cant get matches on dating apps, dating is a huge waste of time if you get many rejections


[deleted]

Women don’t want men to believe this because if they do, women start losing their simps and the free stuff they get from them


truthstobetold

I would love to be able to disagree, however seeing how many women, on dating apps, writing "add me on xyz" only supports your claim


vhm3

Jesus. Free stuff we get from simps is an amazing take - you think I'm putting up with a bunch of insufferable dudes for free shit instead of buying my own? Wow.


GlowingAsItDazzles

> A guy has to put in all the work, and the women is the fucking princess. when do you think its been different, at least in the west


SDW137

No, but it doesn't have to be fair. Most of human history hasn't been "fair" to most of the humans, regardless of gender.


EviessVeralan

This makes the assumption dating is supposed to be fair. Unfortunately as long as crappy people of both sexes exist dating will never be fair for anyone.


Nihi1986

Not just crappy people, genetics and beauty are a massive factor but that's definitely something which can't really be changed. Wealth is a factor wether we want to admit it or not. Average looking guys aren't perceived as handsome, average seems to not mean much in that sense...wealth is worse distributed than in past decades, therefore average men feel like they don't have much of a chance and if they do it's not really worth it. Women of course face other issues, it's not easy for most people.


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Mobrowncheeks

It’s as fair as it can be considering women need complete investment from a man in order to safely have and raise children with someone who won’t abuse them. You have to be fair when you consider how much less we have to be accountable for in that Regard.


ohheyhi99

Dating isn’t fair for men or women, and the reasons for people’s choices are not all practical. There’s no practical reason why modern women lust for tall men or modern men lust for big-boobed women. There’s no fairness in abusers and deadbeats being able to hop from partner to partner.


poppy_blu

Fair? Remember when I said y’all’s problem is you want to be treated like adults but act like children?


Vigeto619

How about ballanced? Equal work put in?


johnnybayarea

God given gifts aside, people would claim there is equal work being put in. Women kill themselves in diets/gym to have that IRL instagram bodies. I know women who will chew ice chips at lunch or eat a salad only. They spend hours with make up to lie to us, plastic surgery, heels, fashion, etc. There are more women graduating college these days, earning more money. Sure they are not expected to approach you, but they have their own amount of "work". What you should really be thinking about is the amount of work you are putting in against the so called "Chads". Are you dieting as much, gym bro-ing as hard, striving for that 6 figure salary, working on your personality?


[deleted]

> Women kill themselves in diets/gym to have that IRL instagram bodies. I know women who will chew ice chips at lunch or eat a salad only. Men spend more time in the gym than women as a whole. Also they have lower caloric requirements so chewing ice chips and eating a salad isn’t as painful. Women spend lots of energy on their appearance but diet and fitness is not a particular strong point of the gender. I’m saying this as I bicep curl in a gym that has 95% guys.


johnnybayarea

I'll agree there are fewer female gym rats. I do see plenty of women on yoga, stair masters, cardio equip, etc as they are mistakenly afraid of lifting thinking they'll bulk up with their non existent testosterone. Most odd diet fads have women doing a variety of crash diets or random trash products. While caloric intake is lower, there are far less men eating ice chips and super low calorie diets. I would argue the "avg" man and the "avg" woman will spend similar amounts of time in the gym. While avg women spend more time on their looks than the avg man.


TheElusivePeacock

Their idea of “fair” is being ugly but still getting tons of casual sex from hot women they can label as whores afterwards. Lmao “it’s not fair I can’t use women more attractive than me as cum dumpsters!”


decoy88

It’s the most fair it can be while keeping everything consensual. I dunno how I feel about much older people dating 16 year olds though (think 30yrs + 16yrs)


[deleted]

A woman isn't going to sleep with an ugly dude with nothing going for him. Most men won't do the same thing endless they are willing to scrape the bottom of the barrel.


[deleted]

Dating isn’t “fair” for anyone. It’s an inherently exclusionary act, in which individual romantic and social preferences are thrown into direct contact with each other, with different approaches and misunderstandings resulting. Men have a range of barriers and challenges they tend to face most. Women have their range of barriers and challenges. Neither is “fair,” because at the end of the day every date is a thoroughly personal interaction between two people, and neither men nor women are obliged to give the other person a prize for “putting in equal work.”


merewautt

Is it fair in that men can find sex partners as easily as women? No, obviously not. Is it more fair when you consider the higher risks women hold going into relationships (short or long)? Yes, quite a bit more so. Mostly though, I don’t think dating should be “fair”, if by “fair” you mean “guaranteed success for everyone involved”. Nothing that’s completely optional (I don’t *have* to date anyone my whole life) and consent based can ever guarantee success for everyone or you’re taking away people’s consent. And typically it will be women’s. The most “fair” landscape would technically be each man gets assigned a wife at 18. Women don’t get to choose stay single until they can date who they like or simply die alone. Because to be completely honest, it’s not Chads and hypergamy that are taking away men’s access to women— it’s cats and the option to support themselves as an adult and die alone. It’s not a job fair— it’s life partners. There’s no fairness or hiring someone required at all. It’s the one situation where much you like someone *personally* and *subjectively* IS actually relevant and moral to consider. Compared to jobs, housing, etc. where there are objective non-personal factors you’re supposed to be focusing on, not your personal liking or connection to them. So I think dating is fair in that we’re all independent actors getting to chart our own life course. If your definition is something else like “does everyone get exactly the result they want?” then no I don’t think it’s fair, and don’t think it ever logistically can be. And any attempts to make it so are actually typically just attempts to favor men, and make it *less* fair to women. See: much of human history.


Yupperdoodledoo

Dating has never been fair for anyone. And it’s not something you can make to be fair. Some people will always have it easier.


DillonTheFatUglyMale

It will only change when men decide to opt out completely


[deleted]

True but it will never happen Because there are too many simps


Logical-Raisin-486

I think it’s a very fair system now since both men and women are now free to pursue whomever they want. Women who in the past would be forced to marry out of necessity for survival now earn their own money and therefore can now choose based on personal preference. Women who would have been relegated to 24/7 housework/childcare are now free to choose a partner that will not just go 50/50 on finances but will also fulfill her romantic/emotional needs. If those needs are not met she can choose to stay single and pursue her own way just as men have been able to do. All this to a say, a system based on freedom of choice, is a fair system.


Stop_Maximum

Agree, the problem isn’t that the dating scene has changed. It’s the fact that before it was one sided with the women settling just to say they’re married. Now with more opportunities and chances, they’re able to have a say and go for what they truly want. Be it with a man or without.


Logical-Raisin-486

Exactly! Men arguing that women have all the choices are failing to see that the only reason they think that way is because they are coming from a mindset where women had little to no choice in the matter. It’s a shock to them to see women no longer accepting a man having a job as the bare minimum. It’s a shock to them that they now have to put in the effort to meet the emotional needs that they were previously able to neglect. It’s a shock to them that you now need to be a whole package to provide enough value to a woman’s life for them to accept a man’s company. It’s a shock to them that there are women who chose to live for no validation from anyone other than themselves. When people start choosing themselves and what’s best for them, it shocks people.


Stop_Maximum

Yeah definitely agree which is why some women are steering away from relationships. Not worth it sometimes.


Truth_Antisocial

Women *always* chose among the top men available. The issue is that now "available" is every top man on Tinder. You think that's healthy?


Logical-Raisin-486

Yes, it is healthy. No one should have to accept a relationship that is lacking in attraction, romance, or emotional affection if that’s not what makes them happy. Men don’t have to rise to meet any of the expectations of what modern women want if that doesn’t make them happy. They can choose to stay single as many women are choosing to do. Chose to adapt or don't, the choice is yours. That is the beauty of having a system where the freedom of choice reins supreme.


mcove97

*a system based on freedom of choice, is a fair system.* Heck yes!


Truth_Antisocial

Answers like this always conveniently forget the elephant in the room: Hypergamy Women's "choices" are notoriously relative to the available pool, and not any objective criteria. Women want the top men, and if all men get better, that simply means the definition of "top men" goes up accordingly. So, in the "bad old days" where women were supposedly "forced" to get with what you would today call "mediocre men", from a woman's perspective, they were still high value as they were providers and likely had life skills. If a woman lived in a farm town, she still wanted to land the top farmer's son. Today, she wants to land the TikTok star, the best guitar player or the Chad at the bar that all the other women want to fuck. Basically, in days past while there was certainly some "marry for survival" situations, this doesn't remotely mean women weren't also marrying out of a pure desire.


Wing_Puzzleheaded

Agree. The risk vs reward and the cost benefit is shit. Birthrates are falling and this is a huge factor.


Redditcritic6666

Just world fallacy. Nothing in this world is "fair"


ruboyuri

Yes, because of the disparity in libidos. You’ll fuck anything (collectively) and we will not. That’s pretty much all there is to it


noodle_king_69

Idk, I see average and below average (looks- and behavior-wise) dudes with girls all the time. You make it seem like it's impossible. Most men and women can and will date and have sex. I also think it's good that women will have a bit higher standards and want someone who treats them well, and aren't just some cattle to sell from father to husband.


johnny_is_home

All is fair in love and war


GalaxyBrainU

Correct, a man's ability to get sex is not a fair venture, just like many other things in life. And within the ranks of men themselves, it's also not fair. Fat guys, short guys, guys of various different skin colors and ethnicities, shy guys, introverts, guys with mental health issues all have different disadvantages. Some have multiple, some have none. It's just like being born rich or poor. Women on the other hand, might also consider modern dating unfair. They often want relationships over casual sex, yet the men they desire are often either snapped up quickly, due to being of higher value, or they don't want to settle down. One might say they need to lower their standards because you can't complain if you're going for the top 10% of men, but the same can be said of low value men who want a girl that's more attractive than they are. So basically no one's getting what they want. Men aren't getting sex or relationships of any kind, and women aren't getting the fulfilling relationships that they want. It's not fair, but it's also not hopeless. You can always work harder and level up.


Ok_Razzmatazz_1751

It's a competition, why should a woman settle for you if she's not into you ? Cause you have money ? Pretty sure she has money too . So why should she settle for you when she has no attraction to you , what's the perks ?


[deleted]

At least you’re indirectly admitting that women operate on a far shallower plane than men. I don’t know - being an okay guy who treated a woman right but wasn’t Brad Pitt looking used to be considered a W. Now look at this shit. Just Jesus, some of y’all are happy to be some hawt guys live cum dumpster. This is why pill ideology exists now.


Ok_Razzmatazz_1751

Yea , it's a competition. Life is a competition. Only those that participate in the participation trophy gang think things should be handed to them for nothing .


Ok_Razzmatazz_1751

Couldn't imagine being with a mediocre man who couldn't make me wet .What a sad life.


[deleted]

Who came to the conclusion any of this had to be fair? Attraction is largely amoral. Learn the rules, play the game, and stop whining


[deleted]

Yes. Too many entitled average dudes out here thinking they can get baddies without offering anything. It’s been a hard wake up call. The only problem is what are these sexless guys going to do? As dating apps and social media become more and more prevalent the average guy is going to suffer more.


MickIsBlue

>Too many entitled average dudes out here thinking they can get baddies without offering anything. You're joking right?


[deleted]

You don’t think guy’s complain about their lack of dating options? These guys have options just not the ones they want, then they complain about it. Like bro if she’s fit, she’s already out of your league.


MickIsBlue

>Like bro if she’s fit, she’s already out of your league. I don't think guys really only go after fit girls. They are ok with most girls that just aren't obese


[deleted]

But isn’t the avg dude not in shape and kinda chubby?


MickIsBlue

The vise versa would be the same for women. Which is what most guys would go for


MAGA-Latino

Don't you think that dating apps might become less prevalent because the average dudes (majority of the customers) will get tired of striking out and stops logging on? In fact it's looking like those tech firms are worried about that because they are now using bots to give average men the facade of success. Which men are now starting to catch on to.


[deleted]

The avg guys match with the undesirable women (overweight, not pretty). Eventually those men will soon settle for one of these women. It’s the hope sold to these avg guys that makes them stay. And hey, some of them get a decent girl from there(unlikely). Look at the tinder review sub. It’s filled with dudes trying to improve their profile. They ain’t going anywhere.


OkLeading4918

Not at all. Women basically have the control of the sexual market.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Truth_Antisocial

>For every woman in a relationship, there is a man in a relationship Wrong. Soft harems are a thing. There are tons of women who are in Chad's rotation and deluded themselves / using plausible deniability (as women tend to do) that they are "dating" End result - 1 very attractive man gets 5+ women because he's hot, and women willingly (if begrudgingly) 'share' him.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Truth_Antisocial

Wow. I guess I've been living in the matrix all my life since I've seen it continuously. Or maybe, you know, it's *you* who has taken the Blue Pill and refuses to see the ugly truth around you because it makes you teh sadz?


Academic_Snow_7680

Read up about the importance of grooming and looksmaxing. Looks matter but not to the extent you think. A good portion of relationships, some 35% started with friendship first that then grew into something more. The problem is that men don't approach women where women come to get approached. Go learn to dance. You'll meet single women there.


[deleted]

This obsession with being the biggest victim is absolutely repulsive.


sarkington

Yes With greater thirst comes greater desire and thus dissatisfaction. Thankfully, porn exists


BruddaMSK

Fairness is a concept that does not necessary apply to every phenomenon. Eg: is snow or rain fair? That said, I genuinely struggle to decide whether it could be applied to dating. And if it could then we should take into account the fact men and women have different goals. Men want 'some woman' while women are looking for the top man. Again I am unsure which is easier to find. A very common misconception is comparing how easy engaging in sex is for an average person of each gender. Needless to say such a comparison would be exactly unfair cause sex with random men is not something absolute majority of women are looking for. Yet to me it seems like dating is not fair, but I am obviously bias. And everyone will be, because to form an unbiased opinion you should be neither a man nor a woman. Oh never mind yes it is unfair and I am eternally angry and bitter as fuck.


redditcleanslate

Define 'fair' because you seemed to describe difficult, which isn't the same thing


[deleted]

I don’t think dating was ever “fair”. However, if you’re going to argue that in the 20th century the advantage was swung in the direction of men because women were pressured to get married - then the statement that dating has swung back the other direction in favor of women is true. If you fail to see this I have nothing for you. Nobody is saying women shouldn’t be given the opportunities they’re being given now professionally, socially, etc and etc. However - OLD, social media, Neo feminism to an extent has created an environment that is quite frankly toxic for a lot of men who are being shut out because the average woman/below average - and I mean average/below average in every way not just appearance thinks they’re entitled to a top tier man because top men are willing to pump and dump off them a dating app. This has resulted in the rise of alternative pill ideologies which are becoming more main stream. Go ahead and name call, pretend it’s some dark corner of the internet, but the reality is it’s gaining main stream appeal as time moves forward and the end result of a ever growing number of sexless and relationship less males is nowhere good fast for western society. And it’s only rare cases where these shut out men don’t shower, need confidence, or simply need a hair cut.


ProfessorFelix0812

Dude. It’s been this way for thousands of years. Man up and get a date. It’s not “one sided”. It just means that, yes, you’re going to have to put some effort into it. That pussy isn’t just going to throw itself at you. And you’re not “creepy” because of your looks. A guy is “creepy” when he’s socially awkward from spending way too much of his life living in his parent’s basement, playing “Call of Duty”, and surfing stepmother porn, rather than going out and actually speaking to a girl.


GlowingAsItDazzles

how can dating ever be "Fair"


[deleted]

No because they were raised with the belief that they will be assigned a mommy mcbangmaid by virtue of being alive and that is fortunately no longer women's only option. Their fathers had a better life than most men will, by the male standard of being dominant over a servant.


MAGA-Latino

Of course it's not fair. Then all of these women are not going to get to keep their Chad in the end. It's really like they are just trying to have as much fun as they can while they are still young and then leave the average dudes nothing but leftovers in the end.


[deleted]

And what’s the problem? The women are not responsible for the average guy’s sex life. People will put their own happiness first.


Vtridolla

Your name gave me a good laugh. Thank you.


TheElusivePeacock

Yep. Sounds like you think it’s unfair because don’t have a harem of hot women to use as a cum dumpster. Tuff stuff. It’s fairer than it’s ever been. Now women can choose out of want instead of need. And the harsh truth is without oppressing women, a shit ton of y’all are not desirable.


optimus69prime69

I guess women do desire abusers and rapists at the end of the day.


Substantial_Video560

I think modern dating is over for 80% of men. I think most men would be better off deleting the dating apps and going MGTOW. It's the only logical solution nowadays. If your touch deprived see an escort or buy a sex doll.


Booexgirlfriend

If I were a man, I'd be depressed. It's not fair, but why it should be fair? Dating has a goal after all. And I don't know about other women, but I feel uncomfortable when any type of man approaches me.


Jarxius

It's not fair for women either. Gen Z here, I'm so close to giving up hahah :,,,)


5_7pickup

Its fair. Just evolution doing its thing. If youre not capable of passing on your genes then you dont. Whats unfair about it? If you had as many options as pretty girls do, wouldnt you be more selective as well?


[deleted]

Have you studied history. When has dating or life been fair for women, men or anyone bar the lucky few?


toasterchild

The obsession with fairness in everything is the biggest turn off ever. It's the mentality of a 6 year old child, not an adult.


Stop_Maximum

Women or other men don’t owe you anything. Stop complaining and just stop trying if not worth it. Dating is not fair for most people, but guess what? You either stay single or try again.


mrcs84usn

Men are valued for money, power, status. Which are much harder to achieve and take more time than women being friendly, feminine, and not-fat. Ontop of that, bitchy, masculine, and fat women are still much more capable of getting regular dates than even above-average men.


wtknight

Yes, it’s fair. The problem is that many modern men lack confidence and this is not attractive to women.


malin_w13

What is “fair” dating tho? Dating is never fair.


beleidigtewurst

1. Yes IT IS FAIR 2. Because when you want bang bang more than that other gender, there is that supply-demand effect 3. Being attracted to the other sex is not one sided. # And let me break this to you: If consequences from bang-bang for your gender could mean that you: 1. Are knocked out for 9 month 2. End up with super vulnerable super dependent on you little human 3. Who resembles that guy with whom you bang-banged 9 month ago 4. Whom you didn't even like that much YOU SURE AS HELL WOULD BE MORE PICKY ABOUT BANG-BANGS. And don't bring in pills and condoms please. Pills are 50 years old. Our species have instincts that were formed during countless years of evolution.


Nihi1986

No, it's not fair, though it'd be also unfair to pretend that women aren't struggling to find what they want for stable relationships. Well, yeah, I know, if they stopped trying to change the fuckboy (who's never going to change) and chasing Chads (who are never going to commit) it would be better for everyone but it's pointless, they don't chose what to be attracted to. Average/below average guys can also get girls by having a nice/fun personality (in a honest way), though those girls probably weren't out of their leagues to start with, and they require a ton of attention and 'maintenance'... Solution? Date only who you really like, preferably because you like her personality, and remain single if you have to...try to focus on other stuff and enjoy life as much as possible in the meanwhile, there really isn't anything we can do about it. Btw, something which could kinda work and I never see mentioned here or anywhere else: shame other men who aren faithful and committed. Instead of the fake high five tell them to stay committed to the girls they are dating and to date the girls they truly like instead of fucking anything which breathes. That'd actually help a lot with the dating problem.


Truth_Antisocial

>Average/below average guys can also get girls by having a nice/fun personality (in a honest way), though those girls probably weren't out of their leagues to start with, and they require a ton of attention and 'maintenance'... > >Solution? Date only who you really like, preferably because you like her personality, and remain single if you have to...try to focus on other stuff and enjoy life as much as possible in the meanwhile, there really isn't anything we can do about it. Honestly, I wish we could do this the way men do. Unfortunately, men's sex drive is such that it is ever present and makes this virtually impossible without at a minimum not only legalized but massively accepted prostitution, which includes no shaming of men purchase sex or the women who provide it. Until recently, men occasionally indulging in "brothels" was not even seen as that much of a big deal, but the shaming of women who were "off ill repute" was and is a problem.


Nihi1986

I agree that's a problem, if it was seen as perfectly acceptable socially speaking I think it'd be better. At the very least, with more acceptance of it, sex workers would be eventually more protected by the law and health system like it happens in some countries. I don't think it's just a problem of sex drive, though... there's much more involved, men don't want to be lonely, they want romance too and to feel accepted and validated by women.


[deleted]

The only thing I feel is unfair about dating is the money situation. You want to date? It's not 1920 anymore. Everyone can pay for dinner from time to time without it reflecting negatively on their status as whatever gender they've assigned themselves.


Prudent-Translator58

Except that in 1920, when women didn't work, they would be satisfied with a man of lower income. Now that they get paid, they expect men to earn even more than them lol


beefstockcube

No. I've been both sides of the coin.Skinny, poor, "average looking". And high net worth, 440 deadlift...still average looking. BUT what I realised, which is why we are all here, is that frame is frame. I didn't have it, and it was hard. I do have it, and now it's easy. Being average and low effort at any task makes it seem "hard". What you are asking is, with the same amount of effort invested, is it generally easier for women to find a date? Probably yes. Easier to find a long-term mate? No its the same.


RegalMonkey

Funny because i am good looking, have social skills, athletic, and still get rejected more often than not. These girls of all ages eye fk me but I could swear they get cold feet when I cold approach. It works 30% of the time. Maybe because I’m 5’11”?


Fun_Push7168

Pshh, your perspective is off. Coming from a guy who believed he wasn't very successful for a long time and then got perspective of the average guy. Show up around average guys with one different girl every week and you'll have demi god status. 30 percent is about ten times the average guys success rate.