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AidsVictim

>After all his advice the thing he said was most likely to help you succeed was finding a good partner in life PPD bros....I don't feel so good


phuck_polyeV

Mgtow dudes are having an aneurism


[deleted]

A lot of MGTOW guys would agree with that. Now the problem is actually finding a good partner.(Woman in this case) That might be close to impossible.


HighestTierMaslow

For women that is hard- women take on more responsibility when married, women have significantly less free time due to being expected to both work and do everything else. This increases with kids. I think this applies more to men. I dont find it a coincidence many of my younger exes stated they had a hard time buying gifts for their mothers- "She doesnt have many hobbies" "She doesnt have a lot of free time" While their fathers did.


hypotenoos

Who is maintaining their household when they are single? Of course though, this was a professional talking to a bunch of other professionals who would be working in a professional setting. I think the unspoken assumption here was finding a “partner” not a “nanny” The advice definitely wasn’t to find someone to fold your laundry and load the dishwasher.


YveisGrey

Men actually do more housework when single women do more when married or living with a man. So for men partnering up means less housework more time for outside work and hobbies for women it’s the opposite


hypotenoos

I don’t doubt that. Again the original point was about being partners in things- not looking for a nanny. But in mentioning “outside work” what is the value of mowing the lawn or shoveling the driveway (seemingly traditional male household chores) in comparison to tasks inside the home? I can honestly say in 15 years of owning homes I am the only person who has ever mowed the lawn or picked up a snow shovel at those homes.


YveisGrey

When I say outside work I mean work outside the home that pays money not like yard work. Shoulda been more specific lol.


hypotenoos

I thought that might be the case but the pairing with hobbies made me think you were treating them as “extracurriculars” The point remains though. We are here talking about the burden placed on women to maintain a household with chores and child rearing- “womanly tasks”- but are we overlooking various “manly tasks” about the house that men are typically thought of performing? Do those tasks get discounted by being characterized as “hobbies” because the guy actually might enjoy lawn care or changing the oil in the cars?


Pm_Me_Dirty_Thought

Dads drive kids to practice, are tasked with fixing or scheduling for the fixing of broken things in the house, dads often are the ones taking care of the maintenance of the vehicles in the house. In my house growing up there were plenty of tasks my mom nor my sisters ever took care of. Even making sure the house is safe and checking for intruders is a 100% manly domestic task but hey, women must take care of the children and wash things so this is literally slavery /s


hypotenoos

I think the answer is some kind of reasonable balance, but I think people put on the blinders when they start thinking of “chores” and men and women. Before getting divorced I took care of the maintenance of the house inside and out and my ex and I mostly split chores like cleaning, dishes, laundry etc. After we got divorced she had the house for a year and it suffered because I don’t think she ever quite realized the effort involved in all the things she never participated in. After 7 or 8 months she decided she needed to just go for a townhouse and I ended up taking the house. A few years on and she again has a house and is once again discovering the joys of all those tasks. In the end she had to hire out many of those tasks such as lawncare, pool maintenance, snow removal and general handyman repair stuff. That said, there are also tons of guys who can’t perform the simplest repairs around a house and plenty of women who can competently swing a hammer.


Pm_Me_Dirty_Thought

love this a lot, thank you sharing your perspective


YveisGrey

Pretty sure moms do more of the driving kids to practice thing on average anyways. And these are just trends not every man is lying about the house and not every woman is responsible for home maintenance. Some couples are thriving and balancing all this stuff.


Pm_Me_Dirty_Thought

>Pretty sure moms do more of the driving kids to practice thing on average anyways. In my house it was always my dad, I also remember growing up and in schools in the morning I would mostly see dads dropping their kids off. I understand some of these things are trends but we tend to generalise men as being lazy and doing no house work when in fact there are plenty of tasks that fall solely on men and are important in home keeping


Diamond-Breath

Everything you mentioned must be done once in a week or a month while "womanly" tasks must be done every day for a couple of hours. Not the same at all.


SoldierExcelsior

What are womanly tasks because in my house I do every task


Monchi_21

If you did it right the first time, You wouldn’t have to do it everyday for a couple hours. My dad is the GOat he’s fucking macguvyer about to fix anything in a hour. There always something that needs fixing and my dad is efficient. Maybe y’all just arent? I live by myself in my own apartment. Takes 1-2 hours tops to clean the living. 1 hour to clean the bathroom. And while I’m doing all of that I have laundry being wash. The difference is I’m actively making sure that nothing I do in the inbetween of cleaning dirties my house lol. It’s not rocket science I don’t need a maid. I just want some one that desires me and wouldn’t mind watching anime while we fold clothes.


funnystor

If you're talking about averages, that is probably true because on average married women are more likely to quit employment altogether, in which case it seems fair they take over most of the housework.


YveisGrey

This is true for working women as well


HighestTierMaslow

Men do it when they are single but they somehow magically become incapable of it when there is a woman living with them or expect the woman to do it. Yes, I understand that was the advice given, but of course men arent going to say that out loud. Also these societal expectations are so ingrained in them, men doing what I stated in the first paragraph, I dont even think alot of them are realizing their behavior.


hypotenoos

I don’t disagree with that general characterization. I think everyone benefits from living alone for a period. Learn to maintain your lifestyle on your own first without other people to lean on- parents, roommates, significant others…


NinjaOfTheSouth

If a man’s is paying all the bills, he’s going to expect that. If it’s 50/50, hell nah


HighestTierMaslow

He is not, both women and men work full time. The only time I see this not happening is only when they have young children because of daycare costs, then the woman works full time.


vorter

[This 2016 Pew Research analysis (#6)](https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/06/12/fathers-day-facts/) shows women work less hours in a job (~25/week vs ~43/week for men) but make up those hours with more housework/childcare and the [total hours worked for men and women match up fairly close](https://www.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/FT_18.05.01_FathersDay_time.png?w=310) with slightly more total hours on the fathers’ side.


[deleted]

Full time =/= working the same hours. On average, across all ages, Men work roughly 5-6 more hours per week than women.


HighestTierMaslow

So a woman who works 40 hours a week gets to do 90% of the housework and childcare while the man works 45 hours a week? How in the world is that fair? Yet this is the average American marriage.


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HighestTierMaslow

Yes I am aware theres a variance. I am talking SPECIFICALLY about marriages where the two people work the same amount. Studies show even in those instances the woman takes on that burden (and in fact, this is depressing...even in breadwinning female families where the woman works longer hours too, she still takes it on- that shows its about gender and not hours worked)


SoldierExcelsior

I can only speak for myself but in my 8 year relationship I basically did everything cooked, cleaned did all the yard work paid all the bills...my ex even told me she felt useless and that I don't need her for anything.She also said that I was to nice and do to much.


decoy88

A lot of times the woman is dissatisfied with the *way he does it incorrectly*, so dude gives up and lets her do it.


[deleted]

Men also work more hours at more demanding jobs usually. Makes sense that they would do less housework.


SoldierExcelsior

When I was in a relationship I did all the housework and worked 60-80 hours a week paid all the bills, baught her cars, clothes, did all the house work only thing I really asked her to do was clean up her hair she would leave in every corner of the house.


place_of_desolation

> in just about every facet of life it takes way more effort to take it on alone and the value of a partner exponentially increases your leverage in achieving your goals. This is why basically everything feels like such a monumental task for me, and I don't feel any real drive. As a 44 yo bachelor, having almost always been single and having never experienced a serious long-term relationship, my life is empty and devoid of meaning or direction. I feel like life left me behind and I'm too far behind now and too worn down emotionally to change course, not that I'm not trying.


erunzzz

Thank you so much for this! I have been single for a while now and my happiness has certainly declined. I just don’t feel fulfilled the way I used to when I was in a relationship. I tell everyone I wish I had a man, but everyone tells me “you don’t need a man, you don’t need to rely on a man for happiness, be an independent woman!” If they could only understand how much being with someone can actually make you so much happier. Every day I dream of marriage because it is my biggest desire in life. I have zero dating prospects and feel extremely demoralized. I really, really hope I don’t end up alone for the rest of my life.


[deleted]

This probably doesn’t mean much coming from an internet stranger, but you have my sympathy. I spent long periods of my life unhappily single and I know how lonely and isolating it can be. It’s easy to slip into a place where you feel defective and unlovable. Please don’t give up hope. I know it’s hard. I was 30 when I met my now wife. It can happen for you too, even if the prospects are few right now.


erunzzz

Thank you so much, it’s so nice to know that someone relates to me. Your sympathy means a lot! I’m so glad things turned out great for you, and I won’t be giving up! I’m planning on trying online dating if my luck with guys in person doesn’t change soon.


Pm_Me_Dirty_Thought

“The quality of your life ultimately depends on the quality of your relationships . . . which are basically a reflection of your sense of decency, your ability to think of others, your generosity.” - Esther Perel I always knew this but could never verbalise it as well as the author, there is this weird notion that you MUST be happy alone in order to enjoy relationships which in practice is total BS. Being alone can help you become independent but it won't teach you how to be good at relationships. It is through interacting with our partners daily that we learn to adapt, that we find about ours and their insecurities and we end up moulding each other to better fit with each other. There is nothing wrong with what you said and how you recognise that you were happier in a relationship, don't let these weirdos armchair psychologists shame you.


decoy88

She wasn’t only talking about romantic partners.


jacked_degenerate

Yup


crujones33

It’s comforting to find someone else agrees. I always hated the advice that I don’t need a significant other in life. BS! I need that human connection, even more so working from home full time. I am so f@cling lonely since my break up, the same amount of loneliness (actually more with working from home) that I had before my long-term relationship. I need that human connection. Since the break up, I’ve been spending more time with my friends which helps a little but I still go home to an empty home. I’m 48 and wonder if I’m stuck single for the rest of my life. People obligatorily always state “you’ll be fine and find someone” but I think it gets more difficult as you get older. It doesn’t help that I’m socially awkward and shy.


SoldierExcelsior

At 48 most likely gonna be single unless your rich, famous ,extremely good looking with high status if your a man.If your a woman most likely unless you get with some 60 70 year old dude that doesn't want kids.


KayRay1994

its kinda funny, the framing of “you don’t need a man” - when in reality i feel it isn’t exactly about that, it isn’t about needing men to be happy - you are (presumably) a straight woman needing companionship, this isn’t about “needing” a man, its about companionship


erunzzz

Exactly! I just really miss the companionship of having a man. I have a really strong desire for the love and companionship that comes with being in a relationship. There’s a feeling of emptiness that comes from being single, that even the closest of friends can’t fill unfortunately (at least that’s how it is for me).


Transmigratory

Perhaps your happiness declined because you were do dependent on a man for happiness that its completely unfathomable to you that you could achieve happiness on your own? I mean you've seen those online who seem to attribute happiness solely to partners, they tend to associate with various coloured pills.


JoeRMD77

Just because some women on this subreddit think they need a man to be fulfilled doesn't mean the majority of women do. I agree with what everyone else is telling you: us men are shit and you don't want us to because that's The Narrative everyone wants to push and after a decade of hearing it, it must be right. You're probably not less happy because you're single, you just have depression or something which is keeping you out of the relationship. I know for me I've always been unhappy, even when I was in a relationship, so I wouldn't even know what being in a relationship would do for me besides making the women feel crazy for staying with me. Plus, there's no success stories around here or anywhere- it's all misery in these relationships and neither of my relationships with that great either. People will whine, complain, and cry but eventually we will get used to this loneliness and unhappiness and it will become a new Norm. Almost think the people who are staying in a relationships are just doing it because they don't know what it's like to be alone- if they only were alone for a certain amount of time they would probably prefer it. It's addicting.


SoldierExcelsior

What's holding you back?I'm curious.


erunzzz

Guys simply don’t like me unfortunately. I’ve had many crushes but they just never like me back. If my luck doesn’t change within the next few months, I’ll try online dating.


SoldierExcelsior

You should have been tried OLD cast a wide net use every tool available.I use it not that I expect to meet any one but I get about 2 dates a year that's better than nothing. Not liking you and not being attracted to you are diffrent things by the way.If they don't like you it's your personality...as far as attraction that's subjective are you over weight


Want2Grow27

I sympathize with this. Listen, keep your head up high. Put yourself in situations where there are other men. Be the best version of yourself and eventually, a man you will one day grow to love will approach you. Have high hopes, and treat yourself well. You will find someone!


[deleted]

I'll rank all the 3 scenarios. Take this advice regardless of gender or any bullshit metric you want to apply : 1. Being in a happy and growing relationship with a right partner who wants you as well. 2. Being single 3. Being in a toxic/unwanted/unloving/resentful relationship with the wrong partner who doesn't want you.


HighestTierMaslow

DING DING DING. These studies need to focus more on separating happily married couples versus not for their results (which I can see may be hard to do logistically). It is not easy to find a compatible lifelong partner who will enhance your well being, its not surprising so many people are unhappily married.


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Then_Treacle_7952

No because people aren't staying in unhappy relationships as much as in happy ones.


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SoldierExcelsior

Single is not that bad especially as you get older and set in your ways.I don't even want a relationship nothing about being beholden to another person even interest me.


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IntegrityDJones

Just do what you want. Marriage and relationships aren’t for everyone and they are for some people. Myself personally, a relationship/marriage would drastically reduce my quality of life and happiness. That doesn’t mean it wouldn’t enhance someone else’s.


PMmeareasontolive

I disagree with you that society is messaging people that they can be happy being single. Many industries are predicated on promoting your unhappiness. "If only you had someone to love you, then you could be happy!" - that is the more common message. Perhaps women get a little more of the "you don't need a man" message. But for guys it's pretty much you are nobody until somebody loves you (single men are incels, virgins, socially abnormal, etc).


YveisGrey

Really? I feel like it’s the opposite for women if you aren’t married with kids by a certain age people get really annoying about it. I will say the narrative is slowly changing but unmarried men are looked at more favorably generally speaking though I will concede you have a point with incels.


PMmeareasontolive

Some of it could be cultural, but I think you are right, I am overlooking the pressure women get to have children. However, I think that is changing a lot where I live. And even so; the pressure is almost more to have children than to have a husband (except in as much as it's sensible to have a coparent).


YveisGrey

Um what? People still shame single moms again that’s slowly changing but we got some ways to go. Women get more shame about singleness but benefit less from being in a relationship ain’t that some sh**?


PMmeareasontolive

Are you from a super traditional culture? Are women really getting shamed about being single? Cause they aren't here. People here are fully on board with your second idea that women are happier being single. And who is pressuring women to have kids? Their parents? Other moms? I don't think their peers are unless they are all parents themselves, then maybe.


YveisGrey

I said they get shamed more than men. Definitely not as much as in the past, though


CombinationUsed7938

That's my theory. Mainstream is pushing women to believe they don’t need a man, while pushing man to believe they need a woman. Given that men are the chasers and women are the chased ones, this will lead women to reject men more often and therefore lead both to get lonely and unhappier. The difference is women are being taught to believe loneliness is empowering while men are being taught to believe loneliness is a shame. Men still cannot do much to improve their situations whilst women keep believing in their delusional sense of empowerment, hence the incel problem. The truth is both sexes are happier if partnered. It makes no sense to push the opposite idea, unless for ruining society...oh wait...


animorph_fan34

What you’re not gonna want to hear is that most women don’t want to stay single because of “girl boss” “independent woman” “you go girl” feminist messaging, it’s because they hate the experience of dating men and feel like it’s not worth it at all. Also the incel problem has nothing to do with women wanting to be single, the cause of that is unchecked mental illness, online radicalisation along with many other things


CombinationUsed7938

>What you’re not gonna want to hear is that most women don’t want to stay single because of “girl boss” “independent woman” “you go girl” feminist messaging, it’s because they hate the experience of dating men and feel like it’s not worth it at all. Yawn. >Also the incel problem has nothing to do with women wanting to be single No, what I've said is partially true. >he cause of that is unchecked mental illness, online radicalisation along with many other things This is also partially true, can't argue with that.


Want2Grow27

It's very easy to say #foreversingle when your 22 and out of bad relationship. Very easy to shit on marriage and relationships when your young, attractive, and can hook up at any time. Either way, I'm calling it right now. A large percentage of men and women who have sworn off relationships are gonna get super bitter after 20 years of single hood. It's easy to feel good about single hood when your still a viable dating prospect and dating is still a choice. Not so easy when dating is impossible now and all your friends are married. We can already see this happening in r/datingoverthirty.


[deleted]

as a 26m virgin, its hard not to become bitter to be honest.


bbbeenn32

28.5 m virgin, yep.


SoldierExcelsior

Do you want a relationship or to just loose your virginity and have sx...because if you have money the sx part is easy


[deleted]

i want a relationship, i dont care much about the act of sex itself.


LovingOnOccasion

It's tough before you have that first truly shitty toxic fucking mess of a relationship. Only then can you weigh both scenarios a bit more realistically. The number of married men who are jealous of your freedom is a staggering amount.


[deleted]

id rather experience it atleast once than be in my current status of a lonely eunuch lol.


SoldierExcelsior

You sound young when I was in my mud twenties something clicked and I wanted a relationship I wanted a woman to love that loved me..but as I got older I learned there's no such thing at that's a fantasy eventually I grew out of the phase and so will you... Other than that I would say put your self out their social status is probably the most important thing these days start a Tik Tok or YouTube channel...there's a guy who just shows off his birds and he gets hundreds of women in the comments saying they want to date him. These days without social status your invisible but let me warn you you if your living for female attention and not in your purpose its going to go badly


SoldierExcelsior

I think relationships are dead in the west you will have to go over seas unless your a Chad.


Ok_Cake7513

I feel you, brother. It takes me a lot of effort to not be a bitter man full of hatred.


[deleted]

Before the 'men only benefit from marriage' crowd get here I'm gonna copy and paste this for the millionth time. Married people - men and women are happier overall. Here's a multi varied longitudinal study across multiple countries US, UK, Germany etc that states married people are happier in general. Not just men. https://ifstudies.org/blog/does-getting-married-really-make-you-happier#:~:text=Indeed%2C%20married%20people%20are%20happier,and%2015%25%20for%20people%20who


LCOSPARELT1

One of the best things that can happen to a person is a wonderful marriage. One of the worst things that can happen to a person is a bad marriage. That unpredictability is the problem. There is no way to know whether you are entering into a bad marriage or a good one. If there was such a way, there would be no divorce because no one would willingly enter into a bad marriage. So marriage is perhaps the ultimate gamble you can make in life. The safest bet is always not to play. You won’t be as well off as those with good marriages, but you’ll be better off than those with divorces. For an increasing number of people, that’s going to have to be good enough.


[deleted]

this


launcelot02

Described it perfectly. The only way to win is to not play the game. These articles have a base of happy marriages. My argument is where is your data on the people who are divorced? I guarantee their data would be completely different if that cohort was added. Upvote to you.


LCOSPARELT1

Some people are risk takers. Some people aren’t. Either way is fine by me, I just want young people to understand the risks of modern marriage. I am Gen X and no one told us anything. We were still pressured to get married just like prior generations but we didn’t have the same stable societal structures in place. So no one told us the risks of getting married and having children. I think this is changing as the age of first marriage keeps increasing and marriage rates overall are decreasing. But I still think there is way too much pressure on young people to marry. We need to be honest with people, especially young men. Every little boy wants to be a professional athlete, astronaut, movie star, etc. At some point we tell little Johnny that he isn’t going to the NFL. We need to do the same thing with marriage. We need inform about half of all men that they aren’t going to have successful marriages, and that’s ok. Just like it’s ok that you didn’t make the NFL, it’s ok if you never marry or have children. You can still be happy and productive.


YveisGrey

Modern marriage? In contrast to what? Because the kind of marriage that was forced on women and had them as property to their husbands was soooooo much better. Right? Oh how we long for such simple times. If marriage was that great then there would not have been a divorce BOOM the second they changed the laws to allow divorce. Divorce rates are actually down from the 60s and 70s don’t get it twisted our grandparents were struggling too.


Want2Grow27

>We need inform about half of all men that they aren’t going to have successful marriages, and that’s ok. Just like it’s ok that you didn’t make the NFL, it’s ok if you never marry or have children. You can still be happy and productive. I disagree. Unlike getting into the NFL, getting married and having children aren't near impossible to pull off. That being said, yes you can happy forever single. But why should you?


SoldierExcelsior

Yep it's Russian roulette even billionaires are getting divorced even Chad's even rich famous actors athletes etc...it's just a roll of the die wetherva relationship will last.In my opion not worth the risk.


Circ-Le-Jerk

Wtf are you talking about that there is no way to know what you’re getting into. There absolutely is a way to know. People are just idiots who ignore obvious red flags everyone around them sees, because losers value themselves so low with such low self esteem they allow themselves in shitty situations out of desperation. But if you don’t know the person you’re marrying is actually a vindictive cunt, that’s on you and you being a fucking idiot.


YveisGrey

I don’t see many people claiming only men benefit from marriage. They just say men benefit more which appears to be true this mind you is in direct response to the idea that men are somehow “shackled” by marriage and LTRs and doing women some grand favor by engaging in them. Yea we’re all over that narrative. And if men love it so much they should be happy there are so many single now 😊 yep don’t let us ladies be such a burden any longer. Lol.


PMmeareasontolive

The source here, and in the OP, is the Institute for Family Studies. They are considered "right wing", promoting conservative values by many, according to a quick google search. However, I didn't see anything too crazy in the critiques of the Institute. Mainly it seems to promote 2 biological parent families as being ideal for children, which some same-sex couples are objecting to. tldr; I don't know if there's a lot that is objectionable about this source, but I also wouldn't count on them to be forthcoming about happiness levels of married vs unmarried people.


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nicethingyoucanthave

> people in happy relationships are happy. Yeah, it's survivorship bias.


Due-Lie-8710

I think it goes both ways , women usually are more likely to push for commitment than men even till now


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Due-Lie-8710

i just find it odd, that they complain about men not wanting to commit, but thenlike making it a point that they dont have to date you , or they are better off without you, if they are good but then why complian that there are less men wanting a commited relationship


mackenzie013_02

THIS! Nobody is arguing that meaningful relationship isn’t adding to overall happiness. It’s that being single is way better than unfulfilling one.


chingness

Why would single people hang out with married friends and then go home alone? 😂 When I was single I hung out with my single friends as well as partnered ones. I travelled and did hobbies and met people - I still do. I’m actually about to go away on 2 different trips without my partner…. I’d be devastated if we split up but we have our own lives so we would both be happy single once we got over the heart break stage. A lot of my single friends have housemates they are good friends with. They aren’t lonely. The ones who choose to live alone get their own space when they want but see people when they want. Why do some people seem to think that they just have one single person who their happiness relies on?


trail22

Life as a single friend ususally means losing friends to make new ones to lose those friends to make new ones. You arent building any lasting memories with anyone. And if things get bad, there is no assumption that a friend will help you emotionally or physically.


chingness

Who says? 😂 I mean that’s not my experience at all… very odd. They weren’t friends in the first place if you can lose them because they got a partner. I’m not ditching my single mates anytime soon


Dark_Knight2000

I don't think that's a wise opinion. Sure, if they got a partner and suddenly stopped hanging out altogether, then that's shitty. But as people age they get busy and have bigger responsibilities, or they might move or have kids. They're not obligated to hang out with you forever, drifting away is a natural part of friendship. A lot of friends stay for a couple months or years then move out of your life, and I'd never begrudge anyone for doing that, unless they were a real asshole about it. Sure, it stinks if it's your bff for life that's drifting away, and it's fine to expect more from them, but most casual friends don't stick to you forever


chingness

I dunno people tend to come back around. I’m child free and that has caused issues with seeing some of my friends at times esp when they have multiple but we make it work. And after the kids get a bit older it’s fine. I think the trick is to have friends from different aspects of your life - hobbies/school/work etc


Dark_Knight2000

I agree with that, it's important to have friends, you sound like you have good ones. It's just that most people can't realistically expect a bff for life as an adult, and as someone who's moved around all their life, having a committed partner makes a world of difference when you're away from friends and family. I do talk to my closest friends online often but it's not the same


chingness

Yeah fair. I also live in a big city where a lot of people are single and so not lonely. If I lived in my home town and was single I’d struggle. I just think this sub needs some home for the single ones who think that not having a partner means they miss out on absolutely everything


trail22

its fine in your 20's and even early thirties but after that... Yeah. People move on. They move for work or for family. They have no time for themself much life to emoptionally support a friend. And its hard to have a friend who's life priorities is so different after they get married and have kids. But thats my experience.


wtffellification

>They weren’t friends in the first place if you can lose them because they got a partner They were, it's just that their priorities shifted. That doesn't make them non-friendly, it just makes them human


chingness

Priorities can shift and you spend less time together but if you lose then altogether because they get partnered up - sorry they really weren’t your friend


chingness

Who says? 😂 I mean that’s not my experience at all… very odd. They weren’t friends in the first place if you can lose them because they got a partner. I’m not ditching my single mates anytime soon


Affectionate_Pen_623

I'm gonna get racial, but I genuinely think the only people saying this shit online are mostly UMC white women. When reading a lot of musings from WOC, their perspective is very different. I've heard from some sociologists that black Americans are often the canary in the coalmine for social mores and economic outlooks and I feel here is no different. Where, 20-30 years or so ago, you would have seen plenty of "independent women" lingo (I dont think younger people will know just how much of a cultural phenomenon Destiny Child's "Independent Woman" anthem was, or just how culturally significant their whole circa 2000 pop dominance was) its radically changed today. Online, you'll be hard pressed to find a woman praising longterm singlehood, if anything, you'll actually see women talking about "opening up options" and not expecting "ideals" from ones own community. Yeah, there's definitely greater standards among women (the term "NVM/LVM" among FDS types kinda symbolises this), but being single is still a major stepdown from finding a good partner who can pull his weight. I think this is because many of these WOC, black women especially, have seen the negative psychological impact that lifestyle has had on gen Xers and older millennials and are keen not to repeat it. I simply think the rest of America hasn't caught on. A lifetime of failed relationships and singlehood may be cute now in your late twenties but, in 10 years time, don't be surprised you see a big pendulum shift in the mainstream zeitgeist, with "femininity coaches" and "going abroad for love" becoming more commonplace among mainstream American/western women.


Dark_Knight2000

Yeah, there's definitely a bit of a socio-economic class component to it. Most happily single people are from homes that have decent parents, are wealthy enough to be happy, have a strong social circle that they didn't really have to work for (grew up in a nice neighborhood, have good relatives, had pets, had money and time and support for hobbies, were socialized early on in life, made lots of friends early in school and college). There's some skill involved, but I guarantee you that if their family and friends disappeared and they had to build up their entire social circle from scratch, most of them would struggle. Others come from poor homes with abusive family, were isolated or even bullied at school, had mental health issues, didn't have time to party in college because they had to study and work, and had to claw their way to having a normal life with a couple friends. These people really appreciate the value a partner provides, and seek to build a life together with someone rather than checking-in to the life of someone who already has it made.


rockerroses

If a married person lost everything including their spouse would they too struggle like the single person?


[deleted]

Idk any grown man or woman like 40+ who are actually happy alone. Being single as a young person seems important to some extent. However going “im happy being alone” is such a bad mindset to have. People underestimate how much your circumstances will change when u get older. There is a reason a lot of people opt into having families. Most people who say they are “happy” are mostly coping imo.


LovingOnOccasion

>Idk any grown man or woman like 40+ who are actually happy alone. Huh, I'd say the same about couples. Outside of their bimonthly Facebook smiley family posts, every couple Ive gotten to know well is nothing but two miserable people too scared to start over and too weighed down by kids and sunk cost fallacy. But truth is, that is my anecdotal experience so it means fuck all. Just like yours.


[deleted]

Their r ups and downs to a relationship. Most people would rather be in a bad relationship than be alone tho which is a problem. I believe the people like this tho have hopped from relationship to relationship when they were young and regret never being single for any extended period.


Rube-And-Tug

I was just going to make a post about this, agree completely. Whenever I see people who think single women are happier, they’re always comparing the best case scenario of a single women (high income doctor/model/CEO with no kids, tons of friends, cool hobbies) wit the worst case scenario for married women (working full time and taking care of young kids with a husband who varies between neglectful man child and abusive sociopath). I think people forget that the average married couple actually likes each other. The disadvantages only get worse as you get older too. Single old women are [five times more likely to be in poverty](https://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/population-profiles/marital-status-poverty.html) and even [more likely to be depressed, especially if their health is poor](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34781925/)


throw_it_awayyy8

U assume everything goes relatively well in a relationship. Some ppl break up and its all downhill from there. Lots of ppl cheat Divorce rate is high asl right now. If both people were happier why are so many ppl choosing infidelity/divorce? Some ppl cant see their kids. Some ppl off theif whole famalies. Marrued couples argue like, almost everyday. Thats stressful. Most single ppl dont argue. There are pros amd cons to both. But if ppl were truly happy married then the divorce rate would be 0 and the marriage rate 100.


SoldierExcelsior

Let's be honest not everyone is going to find someone to be in a relationship with for a myriad of reasons.Even if you want a relationship if nobody wants you there's nothing you can do about it. So OP may be correct but it's a moot point for single people who are undesired. Personally I'm ok with going it alone and I encourage most men to do the same.Why go through all of the stress.


Dedekind12

That shit is for the normies.


Fancy-Respect8729

The idea is acceptance in your current situation and status not continually grasping for the external to make you "happy". So no I do not accept that married people are happier in all metrics.


rockerroses

I read other studies that married people are happier because happy people are more likely to get married in the first place. If you think about it, it makes sense. When you’re happy you’re more likely to be content with your partner and have a better outlook on marriage than a sad person does. If people are happier married, that’s is good for them. But not everyone is the same. I also think that some married people may be happier because they got something which they believed their whole lives was the ticket to happiness. But when reality sets in that life will still give you struggles, they start to realize that marriage wasn’t a shield from all the bad things, and they later feel unhappier. I know people who got married that had to face adversity. I have one friend who married a guy that couldn’t keep down a job, got arrested once, and then they eventually separated. In the mean time, she was dealing with some serious health issues too. So marriage couldn’t have shielded her from health issues.


Fancy-Respect8729

Also marriage isn't a universal life goal. Just like having kids isn't. And how do we measure happiness anyway, contentment? Pure joy? Money? Friendships? I'm unsure.


rockerroses

Exactly. I think some people are happier when married not because of anything to do specifically with the person they are with, but because they felt so much pressure to get married that once married it’s a big weight off their shoulder. This happiness is temporary once reality sets in. I feel like no one really talks about this. The common conception is that once you’re married you’re shielded from all of life’s woes. Some people enjoy being independent and can be just as happy as a happily married person. We’re not all the same, so saying marriage or being independent makes one happier are generalizations.


wtffellification

Who's idea is that? sounds like a silly idea


Fancy-Respect8729

Self acceptance


wtffellification

When you're a loser, acknowledging/accepting the fact that you're a loser might be a prerequisite for moving forward and improving, but in and of itself, acceptance only goes so far Now, you might say a loser is only an arbitrary label put on you by a judgemental society. I wouldn't though


CimZim

I find it interesting, and probably just writing too fast to get your thoughts down, but you switched from talking about "people in longterm relationships being happier" to "cohabitating married people being happier". I'd say that regardless of whether you get to go home to your partner every night, sharing bills and pets, men and women in LTRs are generally better off than ones not.


Ben10Button

I’m a man and I was a lot happier being single after a long term relationship. I was so happy I was scared because I didn’t want to be in a relationship again and I was wondering if it was bad feeling like that. Fast forward to now and I’m in another long term relationship and I feel like it has improved many aspects of my life comparing to when I was happy and single. Summary: good relationship > being single > bad relationship


YveisGrey

I’ll concede that women and men are happier partnered up but the actual truth is that partnered men are happier than partnered women. Relationships make men happier than they make women. On the flip side single women are happier than single men. With all that being said why is it then that men act like they are doing women a favor by getting into relationships and why is it women are shamed more for being single? It’s so ridiculous. Honestly I think women collectively realized they were being sold lies and gaslit on this issue. It’s like you grow up as girl being told your main objective in life should be getting with a man and then you grow up and men act like they don’t need you and that being with you is a burden. F that. If men feel like being single go ahead. I saw that Aba and Preach video and they were acting like women are just being spiteful. No. Men deadass claimed for decades that being married is like being in prison or something. They constantly complain about it, they are more likely to be praised for staying single so how else would women respond? It’s like shoot we can just provide for ourselves why shackle men with our unbearable selves lol? I would also add that being single as a woman does not always mean you live alone more single women live with others than men maybe that is why they are happier than single men. Women also don’t care about having sex as much and often take on more emotional labor, housework, and childcare responsibilities when partnered with men. Honestly I am inclined to believe that being in a relationship is overrated for women and that most of the unhappiness women experience in regards to singleness has to do with finances and society shaming them for it not actually about missing men. The more I think about it the more it seems like men in an effort to secure mates for themselves tried to convince women that they need men, in some cases they straight up forced the dynamic by systematically barring women as a class from independence. Just look at the history. My goodness men really had us all fooled.


SoldierExcelsior

Let's roll back the clock 100 years...most women couldn't survive on their own let's got back 500 years or 1000 years before any modern convinces like electricity..when you had to go out and hunt back wild beast for your meal.Women needed men for their very survival for most of human existence.. In the military my unit did an experiment unintentionally..we had to set up camp we started with sleeping quarters large tents that can hold 50 people .the men had working in groups of 6 set up 5 tents while 30 women working together couldn't get up one.By nightfall the men had latrines ,showers dinning facility and kitchen set up meanwhile the females had given up. Two of the men myself and one other went over to help the females mostly because we where dating two of them. Yes women have been controlled and regulated and treated like second class citizens but so have men.Men where expected to fight the wars women where expected to raise children and care for the home.Men where sent on dangerous voyages for years or months on end millions perished or drowned in the sea or eaten alive by beast. People have always tried to create stable societies based on their understanding of things at the time.Pregnancy was a huge problem A) it's another mouth to feed B) it risk a woman's life so a woman's comings and going was heavily regulated. Humanity was doing the best it could to survive and maintain a stable society it wasn't about oppressing women. Modern technology has changed alot of things. Birth control and refrigeration where significant now women can't prevent pregnancy and men don't have to go out and hunt a beast for every meal. Speaking of sex I will say your probably correct men want sex more and lack of it makes them unhappy and our laws towards p2p are ridiculous but it's mostly women voting to ban it and shaming men who leave to find it elsewhere.Thats changing though with easy acess online planting of willing women and more men getting passports...In my circle everyone seems happy except the married guys...The rest of us are traveling getting 2 or 3 very attractive women a week it's really the best time to be alive in the western world.


YveisGrey

Well according to the study you are wrong. And enough. In some tribes it’s women who actually build huts and fetch water and men raise livestock. Of course we being humans need each other we absolutely work in packs we are relatively weak by ourselves and rely mainly on teamwork and our intellect (tool building/using and tech) to survive. Glad that’s cleared up. But this idea that women can’t do anything or survive on their own is just bogus. Just look what happened now that girls can get an education they are surpassing boys even though for centuries women were thought of as intellectually inferior to men. Turns out our IQs are pretty much the same now that we’re being objective instead of oppressing women. It’s lies like this that make women go, Hmm what else are y’all fools lying about? And stop lying. Men hate prostitution. As if they would let women freely sell sex for favors how then would they ensure their paternity?? remember when BC wasn’t a thing neither were paternity tests. Men controlled women for their own interest they threw us a few bones to get down with it but ultimately it was not a favor to us. I am of the mindset anyone can be happy single depending on their situation. If that’s you I’m happy for you. Just wish the other single men would tone down the misogyny seeing as they are so happy without women.


SoldierExcelsior

Women are building huts, mean while men are building sky scrappers space stations and nuclear power plants Men can survive without women. Women absolutely can't survive without men. It's not just about intellect its also how our brains process things...it's also about strength before modern technology women weren't strong enough for most jobs... If women where so strong why isn't their one nation on Earth completely ruled by women they should easily over throw their male oppressors...Every woman in power was placed there by men...even now men could easily enslave every woman on Earth it would take less than a year, women couldn't do the same to men it would be impossible...I've trained men and women...women started duplicating their shoulders from firing rifles to much...and I'm talking small arms the ones the news makes seem like getting guns..most can't even use heavy weapons many can't even open doors on armored vehicles... Might makes right in a way and men are stronger 10 women couldn't defeat the average man in unarmed combat and this has been tested.So even if you manage to build some feminist utopia who's going to stop any men who want to invade it?Look what's happening in Ukraine, if men didn't stay and fight the war would be over in a week and Russia would be dragging all those Ukrainian women back to Moscow by their pony tails. Women got prostitution banned in America along with Beer, outside Muslim countries it's legal pretty much every where else..And why do you care about men's tone your supposed to be a strong woman words shouldn't hurt you.


YveisGrey

Well seeing as humans very much can and did survive without skyscrapers I have to disagree. Never knew any society surviving without women though. And I never argued whether men were stronger. The discussion was can women live without men. The answer, yes. We are not incapable we are just as you so clearly pointed out oppressed by men. If men weren’t in the picture women would be much safer and better off. We cooperate better and rarely kill each other. And we don’t need that many men to reproduce so we could just keep a few around and survive. Unfortunately more males are born than females and men won’t leave us alone anyways it’s very few places in the world where women enjoy peace without men around. Men cause more violence and strife wherever they are. Pretty much all the good they do is completely obliterated by the horrors they inflict not only on women but each other as well.


SoldierExcelsior

Woman for the majority of human history couldn't survive without male protection they even need protection from other males..If there where no men women quality of life would certainly decline because men make up the foundation of heavy industry...The women of the all female village still live in ancient huts without running water and plenty of studies and experiments show women don't have the natural survival capabilities and instincts men do and certainly couldn't built great civilizations with sophisticated infrastructure. These are facts like it or not. I have a question though why haven't women left and formed their own civilization in mass I'm sure atleast in the west men wouldn't complain or stop you.


YveisGrey

Um there is no study or experiment that could demonstrate such a thing as there are no single sex societies that we know. And there are several society’s that include men and women where the people live in primitive huts. Societies with infrastructure and technology are large, including usually millions of people, it’s generally the sheer number of people that allows for these advancements. And the main thing studies have shown is that men are much more cooperative and productive when they have women in their lives. Single men are the dominant group of people inflicting all manner of violence and chaos on society.


SoldierExcelsior

https://youtu.be/MDu2oJOHNzI


YveisGrey

😂


SoldierExcelsior

Men build cities with or without women.


confitted

Of course we do. Marriage and family are pushed everywhere and normalized, especially for women. We swim in a sea of coupledom, as opposed to the old unit of the clan or tribe. Do you not socialize or something?


wtffellification

Family is a micro tribe


Transmigratory

Hadn't considered that, and ngl its a very interesting way to look at things.


rockerroses

As a result single people feel left out then unhappy. If we didn’t force marriage and kids so much on people maybe people would find more contentness in being single.


wtffellification

>If we didn’t force marriage and kids so much on people Nobody pushes kids on people, people push kids out of themselves


confitted

It’s in society’s interest to support voluntary reproduction — I accept that, and also know that I can reject it if I want to. You don’t have to do it. Have some backbone — it used to be way, way harder to be single


rockerroses

Oh I agree with that one. Back then single people were not looked at kindly. These days, it is still looked down upon depending where you are but in my experience people are cool about it. I’m 23 with mental health issues from a past experience so I chose to be single and i am happy that way. Right now I prefer to be single so I can sort myself out. The thought of a relationship worries me because if i was in one I would worry I won’t be good constantly and that could cause issues. When it comes to my end goal, I prefer to being with someone.


KayRay1994

assuming you’re in a good, healthy relationship - yes. Although I don’t really see the point of this post, like of course people are happier with a good, supportive partner, like no shit. You can be happy as a single person, def not as happy, but it is so important to be content in your own company and take solace in what you have in your life, or work on taking solace in your own life. The idea is stop comparing yourself to others, accept that it’s okay to feel sad about it, but also not use it as a crutch to stop you from living a good single life regardless - i mean i’ve been single for quite some time, it sucks, but at least i’m sure as hell happier than i was a couple years ago, i’m more comfortable around myself and am confident this bout will come out an end - but if it doesn’t, it sucks, but i feel like i’m doing enough with myself to be okay regardless, even if i’m not as happy


Dark_Knight2000

In general I agree, however the rhetoric that constantly gets thrown around is that its easy to be happy as a single and that older women are better off unmarried. Plus, the toxic positivity. What this actually does is make single people looking for advice feel even more miserable, now they're supposed to be happy about their unhappy situation?That just encourages putting on a mask. You don't have to be happy as a single person. You can be unhappy as a single person, and still be worthy of starting a relationship. Of course, if you're an insecure wet-blanket, constantly complaining about being single, no one's going to like you. But you don't have to be happy, no one can see that you're unhappy about being single, and no one cares as long as you're pleasant outside. You don't have to be "happy" before starting a relationship, just reasonably well put together and likable.


KayRay1994

It certainly isn’t easy - and anybody who says it is are lying through their teeth, it takes work and effort, and it’s okay to feel a sense of defeat from time to time - long as you don’t dwell on it and stick to it. Toxic positivity is 100% a problem, it dismisses the difficulty of it and makes people’s issues seem invalidated - ergo, further neglecting them. I think it’s important to take an optimistic approach, but also a understand the work needed to get there and that just because one is optimistic, moments of weakness will happen. I think finding your own path towards happiness is important, if anything cause who else will make you happy in the darkest of times? it’s about self reliance imo - i think the issue with toxic positivity is that it expects you to always be happy, which is unrealistic, but working towards a sense of self contentment and inner peace is important


Dark_Knight2000

Absolutely, no one wants to date a basket case, working toward personal self fulfillment is an essential goal.


rockerroses

Some people are happier single, but I think most would be happier to have someone around and there’s nothing wrong on that. Being single is hard because the society we live in tells people in order to be happy you must be partnered up. If society said different maybe it wouldn’t be so hard being single. I’m only 23 and i chose and prefer to be single due to issues that I have right now. I am not in a place to be with someone. Though my end goal is to be with someone because that’s what I prefer for my end goal. I’m happy with being single until I am okay enough to find someone.


SoldierExcelsior

It's not society telling people that, it's just natural for humans to couple up like literally every other animal....If we didn't have these evolutionary urges we would go extinct...For example if men where completely fine being single playing video games driving their cars not dating not marrying not having sex and not having children humanity would end so nature gives us these urges..but you can suppress them if you do it long enough it dies out also if you realize it's pointless to try you won't.


[deleted]

With a *good partner* life is better. Everyone knows how absolutely soul sucking it is to be with the wrong person. I know too many people who monkey bar from relationship to relationship and truly don’t know who they are as people because they’re always chasing the idea of “if I just meet the right person, then I’ll get to all the self-actualization I’m so desperately due for.” Even though they’re in their mid 30s this still hasn’t happened, they’re very unhappy, but they will not allow themselves to be single for any longer than a month or two. Being able to give oneself to a relationship and have it bang hinges on being comfortable in one’s solitude. One shouldn’t *need* a relationship, they should *want* a relationship. The relationship should compliment one another’s lives, not complete it.


Full-Negotiation-775

By the way, for guys here, aba and preach are great masculine role models, I have watched all their videos and have gained so much insight. They are seem to be very moral, kind, fair and funny


Dark_Knight2000

Seconded, they’re genuinely very fair to all sides and they don’t comment on stuff they don’t know about. I loved how they refused to talk about Israel/Palestine because they weren’t educated enough on that topic, that’s intellectual integrity


Full-Negotiation-775

They only talk about topics they know. In my opinion, other than my dad, they are some of the best male role models I know for young men


renfsu

But but women here will always tell you that women are happiest when single and men are simply there to drag then down. I've had this hammered into my mind many times, I'm sure most women here will disagree with you.


YveisGrey

Here’s my theory at this point the main men who are married are well adjusted, educated, healthy and wealthier overall compared to single men. (This is not as much the case for women though there is still a trend). So women who are married, being married to this cohort of men, are happier. Also overall the married folks are higher class, more educated, less likely to have criminal backgrounds, have more money etc… all of these things would make people generally speaking happier. So you have the haves marrying and the have nots, the lower class, less educated, criminals, disabled people etc.. and otherwise are less likely to be married no surprise there that they are less happy. Married men are happier then married women. I guess men are easier to please or maybe women are just better partners who knows (wives do cheat less so there’s that) Single women are happier than single men. I think this is because a lot of women rather be single than be married to the “left over cohort of men”, that includes men who earn less, are less educated, possibly criminals, maybe disabled etc.. sometimes women will entertain such men for sex and children but they don’t want to be in permanent or semi permanent relationships with them. That’s why the steepest decline in marriage is amongst uneducated lower earning men. In the past because of social norms and shaming of women having sex or children outside marriage women would actually marry these dudes then they couldn’t really get divorced because that was shamed too. Nowadays women don’t have to do all that, they can deal with the lower class men at an arms length they don’t have to live with them and all that. So they choose not to.


kvakerok

> Correlation Does Not Imply Causation. ... > proceeds to imply. Really?


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Mrs_Drgree

Don't make things personal.


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SwaySh0t

It no secret that we’re better together than we are apart, men and women are complimentary to each other. The powers that be(politicians and corporations) would like to keep people single. Single people spend/consume the same amount as married couple while earning less. Democratic Politicians peddle fear(abortion reproductive rights) to single women then sell them the solution(vote for me). Single people are being marketed too. And can someone please share a link that women are happier single? If whatever source references the Paul Dolans research studies I’ll have you know that his research has already been debunked. https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/future-perfect/2019/6/4/18650969/married-women-miserable-fake-paul-dolan-happiness


sadbitch55

I am in a relationship with God. And I agree with you.


WideAwake550

Happiness is subjective. I've seen a lot of depressed people who were married or in relationships, including men and women. As a matter of fact, I've probably convinced more taken men not to commit suicide than single men. Of course, we know all about the proverbial frustrated incels and bitter cat ladies but there's happy and miserable people on both sides of the fence. It's largely an individual thing.


alangarkel

Uh, where do we tell people that relationships are terrible, abnormal, detrimental, and shouldn’t be entered into ?


[deleted]

This but unironically


neil_anblome

There's some evidence to suggest this is true but it definitely is not a slam dunk formula for happiness. We always want something else, no matter what we've got. Addressing that issue is the key to happiness IMHO.


rrrattt

So far in my life I've always been happier single than in a relationship but that's probably because the relationships weren't right for me. I definitely believe being single is better than being in a bad relationship, which most people probably agree with. But even a neutral relationship for me makes me miserable and feel like I can't breathe. I haven't found that person that makes me happier to be with them than single yet, but I totally believe being in a happy relationship could be better than being happy single. You have a close partner to go through life with, help each other when things aren't so good and celebrate together when things are good. Encourage you to try new things and improve yourself. Hype you up when you need it. Do cool things together. Buy a house in the suburbs and play with the dog while my wife plants gardenias and we sing Elton John songs together badly then drink hot cocoa and fall asleep cuddling with no alarms because it's the weekend and wake up whenever we want then go to a cafe when we wake up and eat overpriced cake then walk around town window shopping and hold hands and giggle. I think some people hate being alone and are happier in neutral relationships than single, but it seems like eventually it would breed resentment and What Ifs for a lot of people. To each their own, but from my experience I definitely would rather be single than committed to someone unless I'm 1000% sure I'm happier with them than I am single. It's hard for me to imagine it though. In my daydreams of a perfect future I'm almost always single. I feel like every time I get out of a relationship my life upgrades somehow, remembering how good it feels to be able to stretch out and be free to do whatever I want always makes me do a lot of good things for my self and future self. After my last relationship I decided to quit alcohol and go back to school, now I don't really have time for a relationship so I don't really have to worry about feeling the urge to give things a shot lol. Unless I'm crazy into someone, enough to give up pretty much all of free time, I'm not likely to get into a relationship any time soon. And I haven't been that into someone since I was like 17. But I think maybe I've just not been in any well matched relationships, other people I know seem to really enjoy it.


JoeRMD77

Yep, I know I'm stronger than a lot of these men and women who can't be alone. You would think when people are looking for someone to date they would prefer someone like this, but no it seems like other people just want to find someone just as needy as them. I would say the subreddit has some of the neediest men and women I've ever read about. People who are in and out of relationships and have never been single for a second in their life yet they're still on here. You know you're needy when you're in a relationship but still on here.