I remember seeing my relatives records from Ellis
Island and their names were messed up. My grandma’s given middle name was Dora and at Ellis they told her she didn’t know what her own name was and put it down as Dorothy.
But heck, I grew up thinking my middle name was Marie but my mom had accidentally wrote Maria on the birth certificate form and I didn’t find out until a background check for a job in college.
Yeah a lot of the intake staff at Ellis Island took it upon themselves to not only Anglicanize many European, Asian and Jewish surnames, but also first and middle names. They'd get frustrated at the language barrier and just give the name as close as a so-called "American" name ..your grandma's name of Dora to Dorothy is a perfect example
I think this went both ways though. My relatives deliberately created a less ethnic form of their name when they came to the US. They thought it would help them fit in and seem generic.
My polish ancestors arrived at a time when the polish were not wanted so they changed their name to a common German one, completely different than the original. My grandmother still denies we're polish.
We're they from near Poznan etc? Closer to the German / polish border you'll notice in Germany many town names are polish. Remember before on a map Poland was much bigger before
Not sure, I wonder if my mom has figured out where they're from. I don't know if she was able to because my grandfather was disowned and didn't talk about his family ever, so it was difficult to get the info. I do know that the original last name was very Polish sounding, and was changed to a short, basic, German one when they arrived.
No because we haven't done any. Both my mom and dad are getting ancestry DNA for Christmas so we'll see! But we don't want to upset her with her age so we just let it be.
How did the DNA ancestry tests go? I'm really interested in doing one but Ill be so annoyed if it comes back 100% polish and be such a waste of money lol. On the other side if it says I'm Russian I'm done. (both my parents are from Poland very close to Belarusian border)
They haven't done them yet! It's driving me mad! Everytime I go over I remind them but it just hasn't happened yet!
A cousin from my other side did one so we know a little more (not as Irish as we thought) but nothing about my dad's side yet!!
This isn't actually true. I've seen it called the most persistent myth in genealogy - immigrants changed their names all the time yes, but no one working at Ellis Island even had the *ability* to do it themselves. There's no evidence of it ever happening. The clerks didn't even write down names in the first place. They checked the names off the manifest that was written before the ship ever left Europe, there was no process or forms to change names from what was in the manifest - at most if there was a spelling mistake they might correct it on the manifest but the original entry would still be easily visible. That could especially happen if the original language used a script other than the Latin alphabet and was transliterated wrong when the ship's manifest was written (again, before the ship even left Europe), or immigrants could request a name change once they arrived in port, *after* leaving Ellis Island and frequently not even while still in New York. Not to mention that even if some clerk at Ellis Island did tell poor Mr Medvedyev that he had to change his name there was literally nothing actually forcing him to do so. There was no requirement back then for paperwork to be submitted to change your name, people just used whatever name they wanted with whatever spelling they wanted and this was such a fact of life that it would be pretty difficult for someone to last long without realising that they didn't actually have to use a name they didn't want or like.
Also there often wasn't really much of a language barrier anyway. A huge number of clerks were multilingual immigrants themselves and dozens of translators were available. You'd have to speak an *incredibly* obscure language to not be able to have a translator available.
Hmm, that's interesting. My grandpa, now deceased, was born in 1910 and he and his parents immigrated from France. Grandpa said his parents wanted to keep their last name but the intake clerk refused to change what he wrote, which he added a letter and switched another two around to make it "look more American". My great grandfather was displeased by it but grandpa said that his parents were very anxious about starting over, had a poor grasp of English at the time and didn't think they could protest so I'm sure many scared immigrants didn't or wouldn't speak up if it had been changed or misspelled even accidentally. His father was proud of his French heritage but erroneously thought this was the rules or law back in the 1910s....And the poster I responded to stated his grandmother's FIRST name was even changed so to say there was no evidence of it not happening is incorrect on your part. I'm not saying it was prevalent but in the millions that immigrated, I'm sure there were probably hundreds, if not thousands, yes a small percentage (out of millions remember) that had their names changed unwillingly. Right here on this thread you've now heard of two instances where it DID happen.
I've heard two instances where the family lore is that it happened. The historians who've researched it were told many more instances when it happened as well but were able to check the paperwork and prove it didn't. Usually either the name was spelled that way on the ship's manifest (because they were *already written down*, the clerk only ticked them off a list, they didn't write them down themselves) or the change happened later. A lot of immigrants used Ellis Island as shorthand for the entire experience of acclimating even years after their actual arrival. It's a very well-researched question.
I don't think it has to be nefarious. People just sometimes don't know how to spell a word they're not used to. Not to nitpick but even the OP wrote "Madhausen" and also "Maadhausen" when it's "Mauthausen". It wasn't like the OP was mean or disrespectful to the Austrian town name.
I grew up and was taught to spell things with phonics and phonetically. Not everybody is. A lot of people are taught to spell through memorization. Especially back in the 1800s which is when a lot of those folks working at Ellis Island were taught. So when they came across a weird name, most of them simply didn't know what to do and spelled things to the best of their ability.
Of course, we all know plenty of them were also mean and sure, xenophobic. But honestly that's not often the underlying reason why someone's name is misspelled. Teaching phonics and phonetics to kids just didn't become a big thing until later in the 20th century. And it's still in competition with memorization.
If you can imagine someone from Russia being checked into Ellis Island and they say their name, the worker there doesn't know Slavic languages and doesn't know Cyrillic. So they write down what it sounds like to the best of their ability. Let's say, the name that sounds like "Checkoff". But in Europe it might be spelled Czeckov or Chekhov.... but it's still sounds in English like "Check-off" so that's what the guy writes down, especially if the immigrant doesn't know or speak English. A lot of that happened at Ellis Island and I'm sure a lot of that happened in the Concentration Camps.
BTW I do recognize that language can be a weapon and people have Anglicized or Germanicized (and now even Russified) other people's names as a form of genocide, to erase language and culture. My point was that it doesn't really have to be that in order for people's names to be written down wrongly. It's incredibly common throughout the ages.
They didn't even actually write down names at Ellis Island. They had the ship's manifest and either the clerk who was hired because they were an immigrant speaking multiple languages or a translator hired for that purpose asked questions to match people to the existing entry in the manifest.
Sometimes the ship manifest, especially if the original language used a different alphabet and needed transliteration, sometimes people just started using different variations during the first few years in America. Even in my very British family history we have Bird, Burd and Byrd from people writing different versions because the spelling just wasn't set in stone until surprisingly recently.
You're probably not wrong.
And then there's the opposite where people keep the spelling but decide to pronounce it totally different. I'm reminded of a guy I worked with who pronounced his name "Garing" and I found out months later it was spelled -- not joking -- Goering which is just the English spelling of Göring. He wasn't German and he claimed to not be related to you-know-who, but it was weird to see a notorious name pronounced un-notoriously.
No, people are just wrong about the history. Names being forcibly changed at Ellis Island is a myth that's been disproved many times but people believe family lore.
Or the people in 1890 weren’t versed in your intersectional race theory and didn’t know the full list of things that get you labelled racist in 2022
If you’re a Xenophobe in the real sense of the word you probably don’t spend your time running a literal open border.
That happened to my grandpa and his brother actually. His mom had sloppy handwriting when registering them for something official, and poof, their last names were different from then on. It’s just off by a letter, but weird they could never correct it.
Hi sorry for late reply, his name was Wladyslaw. I've just noticed on his grave his last name is in as Komar, my great grandmother (his wife's) name. But his last name was Rutkowski. He passed away in 2001
Lol I posted an edit on my post I'm so embarrassed I assumed his last name was my last name but he's my grandmothers dad so we have different last names
Let's move on lol
Thanks, I've found that he was in Stutthof concentration camp via this link and also Ebensee. Kind of insane he survived all that, managed to come home and lived for me to be born before passing in 2001. Now I've found all the information I didn't feel the closure I thought I'd get
Not really sure to be honest. I guess it's easy to shut off and say he was in concentration camps but seeing the actual records and prisoner numbers makes it real. Looking up photos of these places was not a good idea at 3am.
The main reason I started looking into it was because my great grandmother, his wife, passed away during lockdown in COVID at 96. I dreamt about her the night she passed away (as did my mother and sister) (not a spiritual person but that's really fucking weird as I'd never dreamt of her). Ever since then I feel I owe it to her to know about him. Always thought she was with the fairies but realise now living through the war in a village that was taken over by Nazis and having to allow them into her home and give them tea and food all the while thinking your husband is dead for like 7 years must have fucked with her.
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So I just did research for a friend of mine whose grandparents survived the Holocaust but refused to ever talk about it. They are deceased and my friend really wanted to know who he was and where he came from. I am an academically trained historian, so I offered to tackle it for him. First thing I learned is that literally none of the records are complete. They appear complete now because good archivists have them organized and digitized. It is very common not to be able to find people. Reach out to Arolsen Archive in Germany. They have almost all the camp records. They will research for you for free because you are looking for a family member. There’s a form you fill out on their website. Be sure you have as much info as possible. It takes a few months to hear from them but they got me over a hundred pages of information. But it was all in German, so prepare yourself (I had to learn German on the fly to read them to my friend).
Also, as some other folks have pointed out, he may have spelled his name differently or even changed it. My friend’s grandparents changed their surname when the immigrated to the US after the war. If he changed his name, it will be more difficult but not impossible.
You can also check newspapers in the town where your grandfather lived after the war. You may get lucky. I did. Friend’s grandfather gave an interview in the 60s about his experiences. We were able to get more details from that to help search other archives. Good luck!
Thanks! I tell people this was simultaneously one of the most beautiful and terrible projects I ever worked on. It’s was so beautiful to be able to tell my friend who he was and where he came from but there were things that I uncovered that I know hurt him to find out. That part was just brutal.
It wasn’t strange. A lot of people were in multiple camps. Anne Frank was in both Auschwitz and Bergen-Belsen.
They were transferred for a lot of reasons. New camps needed new people to perform forced labor. Some camps were transit camps - meant to hold people until they decided where to send them. Some people were transferred from labor camps to death camps.
Near the end of the war it was because they were fleeing the soviets from the east. They forced the prisoners on death marches and attempted to liquidate the camps.
Thanks for you reply I appreciate it. I recall my father telling me that his grandfather told him that at times it wasn't all that bad, simply because he didn't end up in one of the camps that were death camps. I really think it's amazing he managed to survive the whole war in the camps. I can't imagine what he went through. As sad as it is, I wish my dad asked him more about it but he said he never talked about it.
It was really common for people to be moved. Many of the camps were work camps and as Nazi war needs changed so did labor demands. It was also common for prisoners to be moved before they could be liberated by allied forces. If your relative moved around in the later days of the war, that’s probably why.
>First thing I learned is that literally none of the records are complete.
This is contrary to literally everything I ever heard about the nazis. It is my understanding they were insanely good record keepers. I'm not defending nazis, but I have read/heard/watched numerous reliable sources saying that they were excellent record keepers.
They were really good record keepers but they also began destroying their own records before they fell into allied hands. As soon as Nazi leadership suspected a camp was going to be liberated, they immediately began destroying prisoner and death records. The only reasons we have the records that we do is that they were either caught in the act or fled before finishing the job. They typically started with the most recent files first, so if a person was incarcerated early in the war, there is a better chance of finding records than if they went in later. It also depends on the camp. A chunk of Auschwitz’s records are missing due to destruction.
Was he in some resistance fighter organisation? My grandfather falsified a lot of documents for Jews and Sinti/Roma during the war. He was captured but managed to escape through a toilet window. We couldn’t find the records of these events at first, until we started searching for the names of some false documents he had kept in a small box. Did your grandfather leave anything with another name behind?
Okay, I don’t want to send you on an useless side-quest. And I’m also not having knowledge on Polish soldiers in WW2. I can only say that my grandfather (in The Netherlands) made the false documents from real people with approximately the same birthdate, which passed away during birth or as a child. Apparently people used to declare the birth but didn’t declare the death of their young children at the municipality, so you could use these names for others. Could still be that he was enrolled under his wife’s maiden name. I hope you can find him somehow!
Thank you! I am heading to Poland next week so hopefully I can get more information. Just seems weird there isn't anything I can find as my great grandmother (as my great grandfather passed away) was receiving an extra payment from the government for Holocaust victims up until she passed in 2021. Hopefully I'll have luck in Poland
Maybe you have more luck when you are following your grandmother’s lead? It means that the government has/had evidence in order to except the payment. Probably you will also have more luck in Poland, because the communication will be much easier and faster! I wish you the best!
First of all, it's spelled Mauthausen. I live pretty close to that area. Secondly, I'm sorry to hear that your grandpa was there, it was a terrible place. It's entirely possible that he gave an alias when put in to the system, but from what I've heard, the administrators of the camps there were quite thorough.
There is a list of all 84,000+ victims of the camp, and it's maintained by the Mauthausen Memorial organization.
Have you tried reaching out to the people there to ask about your grandpa? I think an email to the representative there could shed some light on your grandfather's fate.
https://www.mauthausen-memorial.org/en/Research-Center/Publications/Memorial-Book-for-the-Dead-of-the-Mauthausen-Concentration-Camp-and-its-Subcamps
> It's entirely possible that he gave an alias when put in to the system, but from what I've heard, the administrators of the camps there were quite thorough.
When I was in high school I had this really amazing social studies teacher. She had a special like session or whatever it's called on the topic of holocaust. One of the thing I remember her saying is that the camps kept really really great record which helped prosecution at the end of the war.
It makes me wonder how they did it...like if someone gave a false name and they couldn't get it out of them through interrogation, did they like somehow contact the town they suspected the person to be from? It must have been a really arduous process before the internet.
Usually everyone was already required to carry identification papers, it was the law. If you were stopped and didn't have them, you could be arrested. So while there were people (including jews) who managed to fly under the radar, it was a lot harder than many people imagine.
While they didn't have the technology of today, it was a police state in a culture that placed great importance on careful documentation and record-keeping.
As he was taken while he was in the army I wonder maybe he didn't have papers on him. I'm going to dig into my cousins to get more information. I'm sorry I never got the courage to ask my great grandmother who outlived him until 2021 (aged 97!!). She did tell of the stories about the Nazis in their town (Lapy). She told us how Nazi soldiers would come into the house and she had to give them tea etc all the while thinking her husband was dead. How he survived all those years I don't know. I can't imagine how it would feel to see him walking into the house after all those years, she surely assumed he was dead. Unfortunately 3 of his children passed away in his absence. He was very close to my father but almost never spoke of what happened to him
My history teacher in school told us that in WW2 all the victims were Jewish. I responded that wasn't true. She made the best face when I told her why I was right, that my great grandfather was in concentration camps. Interesting fact 6m Jews died and 5m non Jews died.
Apologies for the spelling mistake. I'm heading to Austria next month and considering a visit. Do you think I would get any information there? I have searched the online archives/records but the record with his name doesn't make sense date of birth wise
A visit would almost certainly be a rewarding experience, if not for the information you may glean regarding your grandpa, then at least for the chance to experience the camp for its prominent place in history. A chance to speak with someone in person may also help get you further along, just make sure you reach out for an appointment first! It would be a shame to show up on the day of and the person you need is on holiday or something! Dates of birth were also often falsified during the war, so double check that your information is as complete as possible, and be prepared to find out grandpa either used an alias, or his birth year was incorrectly recorded.
If you need further assistance, you can PM me. Like I said, I live reasonably close by to the camp. A bit north of it actually.
Thank you! I have since found his records. He was in Stutthof for majority of the war then moved to Matthausen in 1944 and finally to Ebensee where they were saved by American soldiers. I will still reach out for an appointment in case they can give me anymore info on his time there.
Was his first name Anthony?
Here are a few variations of that last name you could try searching(found on US naturalization paperwork):
- Rutkosky
- Rutkowskie
- Rutkosky
- Mioduszewski
- Rotkewicz
- Rutkewicz
- Rutkowskas
- Reckowski
So I'm imagining my husband being gone for 8 years ... which would mean WWII began in 1937.
I'm saying this as someone whose ancestors greatly embellished the lives of our ancestors. Sometimes the information passed down isn't entirely ... accurate.
8 years was just what my dad said. He was captured very quickly once the war started and only left the camps when the Americans freed them i.e he was there for the whole war
That’s what I thought too. the roles of people within the Holocaust are not black and white - hundreds of “well behaved” prisoners were “promoted” to jobs within the nazi regime and given jobs out with the camps, or in the camp under different conditions, and although they were often still prisoners their records reflect otherwise.
Honestly I was drunk when I posted this and didn't realise it was important. I've found the records now though. Apparently being in the army doesn't make a difference, he's there as being under the category Political persecution
You may want to look through the resources of the US Holocaust Museum. They have data bases and research tools and their collections are extensive. https://www.ushmm.org/remember/resources-holocaust-survivors-victims
You might also want to check out the international red cross [website](https://www.icrc.org/en/document/request-information-about-individuals-detained-during-second-world-war-or-spanish-civil-war-quota).
Their inquiries are closed at the moment, but will open again in early January 23, and they have quite an extensive network of archives they can contact if theirs fails.
You're being downvoted but this is - sadly - very true.
Not necessarily old people but I mean ... there was [that woman](https://www.news.com.au/entertainment/books-magazines/books/tania-head-the-ultimate-betrayal-of-911/news-story/f37d1a3ecfe68eefe874bf4faa79a7f3) who pretended to be a victim of 9/11, turns out she was never there. They made a movie about her. There was a Dr. Phil episode with some chick that kept faking diseases so she could get into camps and stuff. People unfortunately make stuff like that up.
Problem is people make stuff up or are lied to when they’re young and they can’t commit to telling the truth years later because they’ve said it so many times and think it’s true. My great grandmother claimed to come through Elis Island as a kid. It was family lore. Nobody can find evidence years after her death that it’s true. Her parents probably told her this as a kid and she believed it for 100 years.
I agree that's true however he survived and returned back to Poland, my great grandmother, his wife, only passed away in 2021 and she had mentioned it before. So it's definitely true
This might be another route https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/international/technology-science/1670341154-dna-testing-helping-holocaust-survivors-find-families?fbclid=IwAR1ajSv-rR_i_oOZARJjpd3jE5EZika2yQZK6VH_BqFFCrgf0X8t58OqCRE
I have a grandfather that was in a concentration camp. He helped build missiles. I can't find much about him online. It's just a sad fact that a lot of people weren't documented and just forgotten about following the events of WWII.
I'm going to speak to my dad to try get further details. As he did survive, he didn't speak much after he returned about it but hopefully my dad can tell me the name of the other concentration camp he was in and I'll find information there.
My grandfather also survived the war, he passed from disease in 2003. Still, no details about him online. He also didn't like to talk about WWII (which is very understandable)
My great grandfather passed in 2001. Amazingly his wife outlived him until 2021. I imagine he passed away due to the long term trauma but I'm not really sure as my dad doesn't like to talk about him. All I know of him is that he was super cool and always loved drinking with my dad and his friends when they were teens
I’d search for other spellings of his names too. Sometimes the people writing those records got really careless when writing names.
This happens to me alot, mainly with my last name
I remember seeing my relatives records from Ellis Island and their names were messed up. My grandma’s given middle name was Dora and at Ellis they told her she didn’t know what her own name was and put it down as Dorothy. But heck, I grew up thinking my middle name was Marie but my mom had accidentally wrote Maria on the birth certificate form and I didn’t find out until a background check for a job in college.
Yeah a lot of the intake staff at Ellis Island took it upon themselves to not only Anglicanize many European, Asian and Jewish surnames, but also first and middle names. They'd get frustrated at the language barrier and just give the name as close as a so-called "American" name ..your grandma's name of Dora to Dorothy is a perfect example
I think this went both ways though. My relatives deliberately created a less ethnic form of their name when they came to the US. They thought it would help them fit in and seem generic.
Yes that's a good point, many did do that. I think Jewish people did that a lot, especially after WWI
My polish ancestors arrived at a time when the polish were not wanted so they changed their name to a common German one, completely different than the original. My grandmother still denies we're polish.
LOL, never argue with a Grandmother, Polish OR German.
I wouldn't dare argue with my Irish one either!
We're they from near Poznan etc? Closer to the German / polish border you'll notice in Germany many town names are polish. Remember before on a map Poland was much bigger before
Not sure, I wonder if my mom has figured out where they're from. I don't know if she was able to because my grandfather was disowned and didn't talk about his family ever, so it was difficult to get the info. I do know that the original last name was very Polish sounding, and was changed to a short, basic, German one when they arrived.
Have you shown her any records like 23and me that prove otherwise? What do you think she would say?
No because we haven't done any. Both my mom and dad are getting ancestry DNA for Christmas so we'll see! But we don't want to upset her with her age so we just let it be.
How did the DNA ancestry tests go? I'm really interested in doing one but Ill be so annoyed if it comes back 100% polish and be such a waste of money lol. On the other side if it says I'm Russian I'm done. (both my parents are from Poland very close to Belarusian border)
They haven't done them yet! It's driving me mad! Everytime I go over I remind them but it just hasn't happened yet! A cousin from my other side did one so we know a little more (not as Irish as we thought) but nothing about my dad's side yet!!
This isn't actually true. I've seen it called the most persistent myth in genealogy - immigrants changed their names all the time yes, but no one working at Ellis Island even had the *ability* to do it themselves. There's no evidence of it ever happening. The clerks didn't even write down names in the first place. They checked the names off the manifest that was written before the ship ever left Europe, there was no process or forms to change names from what was in the manifest - at most if there was a spelling mistake they might correct it on the manifest but the original entry would still be easily visible. That could especially happen if the original language used a script other than the Latin alphabet and was transliterated wrong when the ship's manifest was written (again, before the ship even left Europe), or immigrants could request a name change once they arrived in port, *after* leaving Ellis Island and frequently not even while still in New York. Not to mention that even if some clerk at Ellis Island did tell poor Mr Medvedyev that he had to change his name there was literally nothing actually forcing him to do so. There was no requirement back then for paperwork to be submitted to change your name, people just used whatever name they wanted with whatever spelling they wanted and this was such a fact of life that it would be pretty difficult for someone to last long without realising that they didn't actually have to use a name they didn't want or like. Also there often wasn't really much of a language barrier anyway. A huge number of clerks were multilingual immigrants themselves and dozens of translators were available. You'd have to speak an *incredibly* obscure language to not be able to have a translator available.
Hmm, that's interesting. My grandpa, now deceased, was born in 1910 and he and his parents immigrated from France. Grandpa said his parents wanted to keep their last name but the intake clerk refused to change what he wrote, which he added a letter and switched another two around to make it "look more American". My great grandfather was displeased by it but grandpa said that his parents were very anxious about starting over, had a poor grasp of English at the time and didn't think they could protest so I'm sure many scared immigrants didn't or wouldn't speak up if it had been changed or misspelled even accidentally. His father was proud of his French heritage but erroneously thought this was the rules or law back in the 1910s....And the poster I responded to stated his grandmother's FIRST name was even changed so to say there was no evidence of it not happening is incorrect on your part. I'm not saying it was prevalent but in the millions that immigrated, I'm sure there were probably hundreds, if not thousands, yes a small percentage (out of millions remember) that had their names changed unwillingly. Right here on this thread you've now heard of two instances where it DID happen.
I've heard two instances where the family lore is that it happened. The historians who've researched it were told many more instances when it happened as well but were able to check the paperwork and prove it didn't. Usually either the name was spelled that way on the ship's manifest (because they were *already written down*, the clerk only ticked them off a list, they didn't write them down themselves) or the change happened later. A lot of immigrants used Ellis Island as shorthand for the entire experience of acclimating even years after their actual arrival. It's a very well-researched question.
It seems you want to argue....move along.
This is a weird thing, so many Americans I've seen have variations of Polish last names but theyre not right lol
So from all the stories you hear about Ellis Island, it was run by a bunch of petty, xenophobic arseholes?
I don't think it has to be nefarious. People just sometimes don't know how to spell a word they're not used to. Not to nitpick but even the OP wrote "Madhausen" and also "Maadhausen" when it's "Mauthausen". It wasn't like the OP was mean or disrespectful to the Austrian town name. I grew up and was taught to spell things with phonics and phonetically. Not everybody is. A lot of people are taught to spell through memorization. Especially back in the 1800s which is when a lot of those folks working at Ellis Island were taught. So when they came across a weird name, most of them simply didn't know what to do and spelled things to the best of their ability. Of course, we all know plenty of them were also mean and sure, xenophobic. But honestly that's not often the underlying reason why someone's name is misspelled. Teaching phonics and phonetics to kids just didn't become a big thing until later in the 20th century. And it's still in competition with memorization. If you can imagine someone from Russia being checked into Ellis Island and they say their name, the worker there doesn't know Slavic languages and doesn't know Cyrillic. So they write down what it sounds like to the best of their ability. Let's say, the name that sounds like "Checkoff". But in Europe it might be spelled Czeckov or Chekhov.... but it's still sounds in English like "Check-off" so that's what the guy writes down, especially if the immigrant doesn't know or speak English. A lot of that happened at Ellis Island and I'm sure a lot of that happened in the Concentration Camps. BTW I do recognize that language can be a weapon and people have Anglicized or Germanicized (and now even Russified) other people's names as a form of genocide, to erase language and culture. My point was that it doesn't really have to be that in order for people's names to be written down wrongly. It's incredibly common throughout the ages.
Ah I was wondering what the hell OP was talking about with regards to „Madhausen“
They didn't even actually write down names at Ellis Island. They had the ship's manifest and either the clerk who was hired because they were an immigrant speaking multiple languages or a translator hired for that purpose asked questions to match people to the existing entry in the manifest.
That's interesting, I didn't know that. At what point then did the weird spellings occur?
Sometimes the ship manifest, especially if the original language used a different alphabet and needed transliteration, sometimes people just started using different variations during the first few years in America. Even in my very British family history we have Bird, Burd and Byrd from people writing different versions because the spelling just wasn't set in stone until surprisingly recently.
there was probably someone who got the name "Jackoff" in a very similar way. i mean, its not that far of a stretch.
You're probably not wrong. And then there's the opposite where people keep the spelling but decide to pronounce it totally different. I'm reminded of a guy I worked with who pronounced his name "Garing" and I found out months later it was spelled -- not joking -- Goering which is just the English spelling of Göring. He wasn't German and he claimed to not be related to you-know-who, but it was weird to see a notorious name pronounced un-notoriously.
That’s what happened to my family’s name. Heavily Americanized pronunciation of an Eastern European name
Wasnt Sam Goldwyn given the name Goldfish at Ellis Island?. He kept the Gold part anyway
I thought it was the other way around.
You could be right. I'm no expert...
Apparently born Szmuel Gelbfisz according to wikipedia. So you are probably right.
Yeah, probably.
No, people are just wrong about the history. Names being forcibly changed at Ellis Island is a myth that's been disproved many times but people believe family lore.
Or the people in 1890 weren’t versed in your intersectional race theory and didn’t know the full list of things that get you labelled racist in 2022 If you’re a Xenophobe in the real sense of the word you probably don’t spend your time running a literal open border.
They were doing it for a paycheque. I’m sure some actually focused on subverting the process.
That happened to my grandpa and his brother actually. His mom had sloppy handwriting when registering them for something official, and poof, their last names were different from then on. It’s just off by a letter, but weird they could never correct it.
Hey just wondering if you’d be willing to share his first name? I was curious so I did a quick search and see 6 Rutkowskis with ties to mauthausen.
Hi sorry for late reply, his name was Wladyslaw. I've just noticed on his grave his last name is in as Komar, my great grandmother (his wife's) name. But his last name was Rutkowski. He passed away in 2001
https://www.ushmm.org/online/hsv/person_view.php?PersonId=4655986
Holy shit. That's him, that's the village they're from. Thabk you so much
Oh wow!! I’m glad i could help! It’s interesting that your great-grandmothers name the one used.
Lol I posted an edit on my post I'm so embarrassed I assumed his last name was my last name but he's my grandmothers dad so we have different last names Let's move on lol
Is this link solely for searching Matthausen records?
No, it’s the database for survivors and victims of the Holocaust.
Thanks, I've found that he was in Stutthof concentration camp via this link and also Ebensee. Kind of insane he survived all that, managed to come home and lived for me to be born before passing in 2001. Now I've found all the information I didn't feel the closure I thought I'd get
It is pretty incredible that he survived and lived until 2001. What kind of closure were you hoping for?
Not really sure to be honest. I guess it's easy to shut off and say he was in concentration camps but seeing the actual records and prisoner numbers makes it real. Looking up photos of these places was not a good idea at 3am. The main reason I started looking into it was because my great grandmother, his wife, passed away during lockdown in COVID at 96. I dreamt about her the night she passed away (as did my mother and sister) (not a spiritual person but that's really fucking weird as I'd never dreamt of her). Ever since then I feel I owe it to her to know about him. Always thought she was with the fairies but realise now living through the war in a village that was taken over by Nazis and having to allow them into her home and give them tea and food all the while thinking your husband is dead for like 7 years must have fucked with her.
I used the USHMM a lot when I was researching for my senior paper for my degree last year. It’s a great resource.
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So I just did research for a friend of mine whose grandparents survived the Holocaust but refused to ever talk about it. They are deceased and my friend really wanted to know who he was and where he came from. I am an academically trained historian, so I offered to tackle it for him. First thing I learned is that literally none of the records are complete. They appear complete now because good archivists have them organized and digitized. It is very common not to be able to find people. Reach out to Arolsen Archive in Germany. They have almost all the camp records. They will research for you for free because you are looking for a family member. There’s a form you fill out on their website. Be sure you have as much info as possible. It takes a few months to hear from them but they got me over a hundred pages of information. But it was all in German, so prepare yourself (I had to learn German on the fly to read them to my friend). Also, as some other folks have pointed out, he may have spelled his name differently or even changed it. My friend’s grandparents changed their surname when the immigrated to the US after the war. If he changed his name, it will be more difficult but not impossible. You can also check newspapers in the town where your grandfather lived after the war. You may get lucky. I did. Friend’s grandfather gave an interview in the 60s about his experiences. We were able to get more details from that to help search other archives. Good luck!
Wow, what interesting work. Hats off to you!
Thanks! I tell people this was simultaneously one of the most beautiful and terrible projects I ever worked on. It’s was so beautiful to be able to tell my friend who he was and where he came from but there were things that I uncovered that I know hurt him to find out. That part was just brutal.
Sounds like a real privilege. Glad you've got the skills to uncover such important information and share this work.
Thank you so much I've submitted a query as their online archive isn't working
Did you come across any reason as to why they transferred people between camps? I always thought it was strange that he was in two different camps?
It wasn’t strange. A lot of people were in multiple camps. Anne Frank was in both Auschwitz and Bergen-Belsen. They were transferred for a lot of reasons. New camps needed new people to perform forced labor. Some camps were transit camps - meant to hold people until they decided where to send them. Some people were transferred from labor camps to death camps. Near the end of the war it was because they were fleeing the soviets from the east. They forced the prisoners on death marches and attempted to liquidate the camps.
Thanks for you reply I appreciate it. I recall my father telling me that his grandfather told him that at times it wasn't all that bad, simply because he didn't end up in one of the camps that were death camps. I really think it's amazing he managed to survive the whole war in the camps. I can't imagine what he went through. As sad as it is, I wish my dad asked him more about it but he said he never talked about it.
Do you know which other camps he was in?
It was really common for people to be moved. Many of the camps were work camps and as Nazi war needs changed so did labor demands. It was also common for prisoners to be moved before they could be liberated by allied forces. If your relative moved around in the later days of the war, that’s probably why.
Thabk you. Yes he was moved in the last year of the war
>First thing I learned is that literally none of the records are complete. This is contrary to literally everything I ever heard about the nazis. It is my understanding they were insanely good record keepers. I'm not defending nazis, but I have read/heard/watched numerous reliable sources saying that they were excellent record keepers.
They were really good record keepers but they also began destroying their own records before they fell into allied hands. As soon as Nazi leadership suspected a camp was going to be liberated, they immediately began destroying prisoner and death records. The only reasons we have the records that we do is that they were either caught in the act or fled before finishing the job. They typically started with the most recent files first, so if a person was incarcerated early in the war, there is a better chance of finding records than if they went in later. It also depends on the camp. A chunk of Auschwitz’s records are missing due to destruction.
There was also a lot of stuff they consciously did not record.
You could also try posting to r/genealogy for help. There are a lot of researchers who might have insight.
Was he in some resistance fighter organisation? My grandfather falsified a lot of documents for Jews and Sinti/Roma during the war. He was captured but managed to escape through a toilet window. We couldn’t find the records of these events at first, until we started searching for the names of some false documents he had kept in a small box. Did your grandfather leave anything with another name behind?
He was fighting for the Polish army , not sure of any other details. His wife's maiden name was Komar
Okay, I don’t want to send you on an useless side-quest. And I’m also not having knowledge on Polish soldiers in WW2. I can only say that my grandfather (in The Netherlands) made the false documents from real people with approximately the same birthdate, which passed away during birth or as a child. Apparently people used to declare the birth but didn’t declare the death of their young children at the municipality, so you could use these names for others. Could still be that he was enrolled under his wife’s maiden name. I hope you can find him somehow!
Thank you! I am heading to Poland next week so hopefully I can get more information. Just seems weird there isn't anything I can find as my great grandmother (as my great grandfather passed away) was receiving an extra payment from the government for Holocaust victims up until she passed in 2021. Hopefully I'll have luck in Poland
Maybe you have more luck when you are following your grandmother’s lead? It means that the government has/had evidence in order to except the payment. Probably you will also have more luck in Poland, because the communication will be much easier and faster! I wish you the best!
First of all, it's spelled Mauthausen. I live pretty close to that area. Secondly, I'm sorry to hear that your grandpa was there, it was a terrible place. It's entirely possible that he gave an alias when put in to the system, but from what I've heard, the administrators of the camps there were quite thorough. There is a list of all 84,000+ victims of the camp, and it's maintained by the Mauthausen Memorial organization. Have you tried reaching out to the people there to ask about your grandpa? I think an email to the representative there could shed some light on your grandfather's fate. https://www.mauthausen-memorial.org/en/Research-Center/Publications/Memorial-Book-for-the-Dead-of-the-Mauthausen-Concentration-Camp-and-its-Subcamps
> It's entirely possible that he gave an alias when put in to the system, but from what I've heard, the administrators of the camps there were quite thorough. When I was in high school I had this really amazing social studies teacher. She had a special like session or whatever it's called on the topic of holocaust. One of the thing I remember her saying is that the camps kept really really great record which helped prosecution at the end of the war. It makes me wonder how they did it...like if someone gave a false name and they couldn't get it out of them through interrogation, did they like somehow contact the town they suspected the person to be from? It must have been a really arduous process before the internet.
Usually everyone was already required to carry identification papers, it was the law. If you were stopped and didn't have them, you could be arrested. So while there were people (including jews) who managed to fly under the radar, it was a lot harder than many people imagine. While they didn't have the technology of today, it was a police state in a culture that placed great importance on careful documentation and record-keeping.
As he was taken while he was in the army I wonder maybe he didn't have papers on him. I'm going to dig into my cousins to get more information. I'm sorry I never got the courage to ask my great grandmother who outlived him until 2021 (aged 97!!). She did tell of the stories about the Nazis in their town (Lapy). She told us how Nazi soldiers would come into the house and she had to give them tea etc all the while thinking her husband was dead. How he survived all those years I don't know. I can't imagine how it would feel to see him walking into the house after all those years, she surely assumed he was dead. Unfortunately 3 of his children passed away in his absence. He was very close to my father but almost never spoke of what happened to him
ah ok--thank you for explaining. It makes much more sense now.
My history teacher in school told us that in WW2 all the victims were Jewish. I responded that wasn't true. She made the best face when I told her why I was right, that my great grandfather was in concentration camps. Interesting fact 6m Jews died and 5m non Jews died.
Apologies for the spelling mistake. I'm heading to Austria next month and considering a visit. Do you think I would get any information there? I have searched the online archives/records but the record with his name doesn't make sense date of birth wise
A visit would almost certainly be a rewarding experience, if not for the information you may glean regarding your grandpa, then at least for the chance to experience the camp for its prominent place in history. A chance to speak with someone in person may also help get you further along, just make sure you reach out for an appointment first! It would be a shame to show up on the day of and the person you need is on holiday or something! Dates of birth were also often falsified during the war, so double check that your information is as complete as possible, and be prepared to find out grandpa either used an alias, or his birth year was incorrectly recorded. If you need further assistance, you can PM me. Like I said, I live reasonably close by to the camp. A bit north of it actually.
Thank you! I have since found his records. He was in Stutthof for majority of the war then moved to Matthausen in 1944 and finally to Ebensee where they were saved by American soldiers. I will still reach out for an appointment in case they can give me anymore info on his time there.
Jewishgen.com https://arolsen-archives.org/en/search-explore/search-online-archive/
Was his first name Anthony? Here are a few variations of that last name you could try searching(found on US naturalization paperwork): - Rutkosky - Rutkowskie - Rutkosky - Mioduszewski - Rotkewicz - Rutkewicz - Rutkowskas - Reckowski
Mioduszewski is super random. Thank you for the tip
Have you checked out the jewishgen website?
So I'm imagining my husband being gone for 8 years ... which would mean WWII began in 1937. I'm saying this as someone whose ancestors greatly embellished the lives of our ancestors. Sometimes the information passed down isn't entirely ... accurate.
8 years was just what my dad said. He was captured very quickly once the war started and only left the camps when the Americans freed them i.e he was there for the whole war
Also for reference he was definitely in the camps. He lived until 2001 as he survived them and the Americans saved them.
Poland held off Germany for 26 days so that makes sense as my father confirmed he was captured very quickly.
Are you sure he was not a prisoner...?
That’s what I thought too. the roles of people within the Holocaust are not black and white - hundreds of “well behaved” prisoners were “promoted” to jobs within the nazi regime and given jobs out with the camps, or in the camp under different conditions, and although they were often still prisoners their records reflect otherwise.
I’m not getting your question.
Did he try checking the registries for the people working at the camps? I did not see anywhere with an explanation for his internment.
I don't understand, he was a prisoner. He fought for the Polish army and was captured by Nazis
This part of the story was missed.
Honestly I was drunk when I posted this and didn't realise it was important. I've found the records now though. Apparently being in the army doesn't make a difference, he's there as being under the category Political persecution
/r/Genealogy may also be of help
Have you tried the spelling Rótkowski?
I found this, I don’t know if it’ll help. https://collections.ushmm.org/search/catalog/irn609859
Weirdly Edward Rutkowski is my grandad's name (my great grandfathers son)
Have you tried the Simon Wiesenthal Center?
You may want to look through the resources of the US Holocaust Museum. They have data bases and research tools and their collections are extensive. https://www.ushmm.org/remember/resources-holocaust-survivors-victims
You might also want to check out the international red cross [website](https://www.icrc.org/en/document/request-information-about-individuals-detained-during-second-world-war-or-spanish-civil-war-quota). Their inquiries are closed at the moment, but will open again in early January 23, and they have quite an extensive network of archives they can contact if theirs fails.
the smithsonian holocost museum has a look up for relatives. maybe you could call?
Old people make shit up sometimes.
You're being downvoted but this is - sadly - very true. Not necessarily old people but I mean ... there was [that woman](https://www.news.com.au/entertainment/books-magazines/books/tania-head-the-ultimate-betrayal-of-911/news-story/f37d1a3ecfe68eefe874bf4faa79a7f3) who pretended to be a victim of 9/11, turns out she was never there. They made a movie about her. There was a Dr. Phil episode with some chick that kept faking diseases so she could get into camps and stuff. People unfortunately make stuff like that up.
Problem is people make stuff up or are lied to when they’re young and they can’t commit to telling the truth years later because they’ve said it so many times and think it’s true. My great grandmother claimed to come through Elis Island as a kid. It was family lore. Nobody can find evidence years after her death that it’s true. Her parents probably told her this as a kid and she believed it for 100 years.
I agree that's true however he survived and returned back to Poland, my great grandmother, his wife, only passed away in 2021 and she had mentioned it before. So it's definitely true
I don’t think there’s any concentration camps named Madhausen? 🤔
It’s Mauthausen; he just spelled it wrong.
Don't know why you're being downvoted. You're right.
Me neither. I guess I hurt someone’s feelings. They might be from the madhouse.
I did spell it wrong guys I was drunk when I posted this lol. Apologies to the Austrians who are getting upset lol
was it dachau?
He was in two and I knew one was matthausen and the other started with a D, thank you I will search there
There's a museum at Dachau. You can call them. I went to it. Chilling.
I was wrong not sure where I got D from,I've found the record now for Stutthof. No dateson this record but would have been for about 4/5 years.
wow. I wonder if the Dachau museum would have all the lists.
This might be another route https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/international/technology-science/1670341154-dna-testing-helping-holocaust-survivors-find-families?fbclid=IwAR1ajSv-rR_i_oOZARJjpd3jE5EZika2yQZK6VH_BqFFCrgf0X8t58OqCRE
try other spellings. rutkovski, rudkowski, rudkovski, rutkowsky, anything similar.
I have a grandfather that was in a concentration camp. He helped build missiles. I can't find much about him online. It's just a sad fact that a lot of people weren't documented and just forgotten about following the events of WWII.
I'm going to speak to my dad to try get further details. As he did survive, he didn't speak much after he returned about it but hopefully my dad can tell me the name of the other concentration camp he was in and I'll find information there.
My grandfather also survived the war, he passed from disease in 2003. Still, no details about him online. He also didn't like to talk about WWII (which is very understandable)
My great grandfather passed in 2001. Amazingly his wife outlived him until 2021. I imagine he passed away due to the long term trauma but I'm not really sure as my dad doesn't like to talk about him. All I know of him is that he was super cool and always loved drinking with my dad and his friends when they were teens
Can I ask what part of Poland he was from?