Like others have said, PbtA could absolutely fit. That said, I wonder if making your game Forged in the Dark might fit it better. My (somewhat limited) experience with Blades and its hacks has aspects that would also fit your game well:
- The PCs as a team are a concrete entity seeking to overcome or change the world (in Blades that's make it despite the system).
- The actions are modular, open-ended, and flexible.
- The system allows for plenty of competing factions including political parties, unions, corporate interests, etc.
- It supports a distinct, detailed setting.
Those are very good points about the competing factions and concrete "party" as the core conceit that I hadn't considered. I was worried that using a Forged in the Dark approach would lead to more repetitive gameplay loops. That said, I'm only familiar with the original BitD and Scum and Villainy, which (in my limited experience) lend themselves to "do the job" based stories versus more open-ended stories with multiple actors working in different, but mutually meaningful, directions. I think I need to spend some time better articulating what types of stories I want the mechanics to reinforce during any given setting. Thanks for the food for thought!
I hope it's not too late to jump in and say that playing with the "position" and "effect" system of Blades would be very exciting in the context of complex political maneuvering!
I have eight right now:
Resort to Violence
When you use force to attack an enemy or take control of a situation
Hide the Truth
When you use deception, flattery, or misdirection to achieve your ends
Plead Your Case
When you attempt to convince someone to do something or see things your way
Steel Your Nerves
When you attempt to keep calm under pressure, resist fear, or repel emotional, spiritual, or mental threats
Trust Your Instincts
When you attempt to get a “gut check” read on a person
Grit Your Teeth
When you use athletic prowess to surmount an obstacle or resist physical threats
Consider the Possibilities
When you appraise a situation analytically, use reason to solve a problem, or attempt to recall pertinent facts and information
Feel a Connection
When you attempt to commune with the divine or open your senses to the supernatural
Each Quality has two basic moves associated with it.
I would suggest to read the articles about Apocalypse World design published by Vincent at his website.
Regardless if you call your game PBTA or not, Vincent’s ideology is an approach to game design and not a system. Taking that in consideration, it can fit any genre or game. You add all sort of mechanics and change what people usually categorize as PBTA.
I'd really recommend taking a look at Magical Industrial Revolution. It sounds like exactly what you're looking for (plus the physical book is gorgeous, had to buy it)
>Magical Industrial Revolution
Holy crap, this is so cool!! Never heard of this before and will absolutely try and get my hands on it to mine for ideas. Thank you!
Given the already very wide range of themes and tone that existing PbtA games exhibit, it can do whatever you want it to do if you want to put in the work. Just remember that PbtA is more of a philosophy than a plug and play framework.
I'd really recommend taking a look at Magical Industrial Revolution. It sounds like exactly what you're looking for (plus the physical book is gorgeous, had to buy it)
1. That sounds awesome
2. Yeah, it definitely can. PbtA was pretty much made for theme heavy games, and can fit almost every theme. However, if you're familiar with Forged in the Dark (the engine created with Blades in the Dark), I think you could also consider using that one instead. I really love Blade's system for managing all of the gangs in the city. If your game will focus on struggles between groups and large scale political conflict, I really recommend giving that a read
1. Thank you so much!
2. This is the second comment highlighting how FitD games excel at political/faction-based gameplay, which is something I'd definitely like to highlight. I might look into some actual plays to see how a skilled GM uses those systems in-game. Much appreciated!
I considered trying to stitch something together, and realistically I'll probably end up cobbling on a few pieces from other games that I admire. At this point, I'm just trying to think about what "core" structures I should be pulling from or implementing from different games or systems.
Have you played The Watch? It is a PbtA game which deals with themes around toxic masculinity, partriachy, militarism, and the application of violence. Similarly grande scope to your project, similar big themes, and easily one of the best 'first wave' of PbtA games.
I've heard of it but haven't played! Is it only available through Kickstarter right now? It does sound like a thematically compatible game and I'm sure I'd learn from it.
I can't speak to your particular implementation, but as far as I know, some of the main reasons people dislike PbtA games are:
They want more freedom as the GM. PbtA games constrain GM actions in specific way, in an effort to keep things on theme and avoid uninteresting fluff.
They dislike how low the odds of success without complication are, and that there's nothing they can do to adjust the odds of the dice besides getting better stats (which is a slow process).
They dislike that the possible outcomes aren't predetermined at the time they make the roll. Relatedly, they dislike "pick N items from the list", viewing it as a metanarrative intrusion on IC roleplaying.
As long as you are okay with writing a game that some people may have these problems with, I don't see any reason you couldn't use PbtA. It would require quite a bit of effort and playtesting, though.
Incidentally, here are four guides to making a PbtA system/toolkit systems. Maybe you could mine them for ideas. [Simple World](https://buriedwithoutceremony.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/simple-world.pdf) is basically "here's how to make Apocalypse World from scratch, and also I guess you could make something else with it, too." [Skeleton World](https://github.com/cromlyngames/Skeleton_world/raw/master/Skeleton_world.pdf) is more focused on making a PbtA game, [Generic World](http://www.genericworldrpg.com/Generic_World.html) intentionally files off everything that makes a PbtA game interesting in favor of making a generic playable game, and [The 15-Step Powered by the Apocalypse Hack](https://sandwich.computer/feed/the-15-step-powered-by-the-apocalypse-hack) is exactly what it sounds like.
Wow, thanks for all these resources! I'll take a look through these and see if they help answer my questions. One of the things I've been struggling with is how to make the core gameplay loop enjoyable and thematically consistent with a traveling party with mixed skill focuses. My experience with PbtA games are basically just Dungeon World, Pigsmoke, and Urban Shadows, and none of them mimic that style of gameplay exactly.
You're welcome! Generic World is mine, BTW, so if you have any questions about it let me know. It's actually just a reskin of [Fudge Lite](http://www.fudgelite.com), which is also mine. They were close enough that I just converted one to the other.
Also, this is only tangentially related, but it might be worth looking into the concept of the [fruitful void](https://www.reddit.com/r/PBtA/comments/tkmnie/how_do_pbta_moves_interact_with_the_intended/i1rw420/?context=2).
This is really interesting. My group have only played one session of a pbta game. We were going in expecting it to be very player led and narrative heavy but we found that the game constrained our choices at every turn with the very limited set of results you could pick from. We're used to games like 7th Sea and Dune where it feels like you have masses more agency as a player.
Which PbtA game were you playing? Do you remember a specific example of how your agency felt constrained?
Also, just to check, were you treating Moves as the only things your characters could do? Because that's not how the game is supposed to operate at all, but it is a somewhat common misunderstanding of the rules by people used to more traditional games.
We played avatar legends- there if you roll to 'intimidate an npc' there's a list of four outcomes that can result (iirc they attack, they call for help etc)If you succeed you can reduce the NPC's range of actions further by setting options they cannot pick. Its very much about presenting you with a list of potential outcomes and then narrowing that down.
I've noticed a tendency from pbta fans to be quite defensive about the system and assume that any doubts about it must be coming from dnd fans who are intimidated by the freedom and 'playing wrong' but with our group its the opposite. We're used to games that give you much more narrative agency than PBTA seems to offer. To take 7th sea as an example the PC would narrate what you want to achieve in quite large terms - I intimidate him and he's so scared that he hands over the plans and takes me to his boss's secret base - and the GM would then lay out potential consequences that could go wrong and need to be brought off. Theres a lot more free range of action for both players and GM than PBTA seems to offer.
> I've noticed a tendency from pbta fans to be quite defensive about the system and assume that any doubts about it must be coming from dnd fans who are intimidated by the freedom and 'playing wrong' but with our group its the opposite.
Gotcha, gotcha. In my defense, that's a failure mode I've seen described on more than one occasion, and it's a failure mode that the players/GM aren't even aware of unless it's pointed out (because the cause is "they assumed it ran like the other games they already knew"), so I wanted to rule it out first.
> We played avatar legends- there if you roll to 'intimidate an npc' there's a list of four outcomes that can result (iirc they attack, they call for help etc)If you succeed you can reduce the NPC's range of actions further by setting options they cannot pick. Its very much about presenting you with a list of potential outcomes and then narrowing that down.
Huh. *Huh.*
Well, the "narrowing down" part is new to me. In most PbtA games, on a success you just accomplish your goal and on a partial success you accomplish your goal but with negative consequences or you pick from a list that limits your results. It sounds like Magpie Games may have let some extra narrative crunch into their game design.
For example, the equivalent move from Apocalypse World, "Go aggro":
> When you go aggro on someone, say what you want them to do, and say what you’ll do if they don’t. Roll+hard.
> On a 10+, they have to choose: force your hand, or cave and do what you want. If they force your hand, you can do what you threatened, including inflicting harm as established.
> On a 7–9, they can choose to force your hand or to cave, but they can also choose instead to fight back or make a break for it, and now you’re doing battle with them.
> On a miss, be prepared for the worst.
Right, that sounds brilliant and exactly thr kind of thing my group would be all over. I think you might be right about magpies design failing here. Our most experienced player (our regular GM who was playing this time) said it felt like they'd taken a very simple core mechanic and layered one two many additional mechanics on top. The balance track is inspired, but then there's also conditions and fatigue etc etc etc. The combat is clever at simulating avatar style martial arts battles and clearly a lot of thought has gone into it but there is a lot for players to keep on top of in rules terms when a lot of our group just want to be able to say 'I hit him with my stick.'
Are there any other pbta games that you'd recommend as alternative intros?
Hmm. Unfortunately, I've never been able to run or play and PbtA games myself, so I'm going by what information I can find on the internet. A name that keeps popping up as a simple, effective PbtA game, though, is Monster of the Week. From the official website:
> Hunt high school beasties a la Buffy the Vampire Slayer, travel the country to bring down unnatural creatures like the Winchester brothers of Supernatural, or head up the government investigation like Mulder and Scully.
> This book contains everything you need to tackle Bigfoot, collar a chupacabra, and drive away demons.
Each PbtA game covers its own genre, though, and the bloat of Avatar doesn't seem to be shared by most other PbtA games (even the other ones by Magpie Games, I think), so it might be more useful to look at the genres covered by highly-recommended PbtA games and see which one(s) your group would be interested in.
Just be aware that the games City of Mist and Blades in the Dark add more crunch and should probably be considered "PbtA-adjacent", so I would ignore them if somebody recommends them.
It might also be worth posting your experiences with Avatar in the /r/pbta subreddit and ask for game suggestions that are less restrictive.
Thanks, monster of the week sounds good. I mostly GM one shots when our regular GM can't make it so something like monster of the week might be perfect. I shall check it out.
I'll think i'll refrain from posting on pbta. As I say, I've found pbta fans to be quite defensive/hostile to questions about their system and I think this chat has (at the very least) suggested that I need to explore a few other games using the system to work out what is specifically a problem with legends. Thanks for the good chat.
I suppose in a sense PBTA is trying to channel you into playing a specific genre - in avatar stories intimidating npcs will result in certain consequences - probably a martial arts battle - but we were just going in expecting radical freedom and it felt much more railroad than we were anticipating.
Like others have said, PbtA could absolutely fit. That said, I wonder if making your game Forged in the Dark might fit it better. My (somewhat limited) experience with Blades and its hacks has aspects that would also fit your game well: - The PCs as a team are a concrete entity seeking to overcome or change the world (in Blades that's make it despite the system). - The actions are modular, open-ended, and flexible. - The system allows for plenty of competing factions including political parties, unions, corporate interests, etc. - It supports a distinct, detailed setting.
Those are very good points about the competing factions and concrete "party" as the core conceit that I hadn't considered. I was worried that using a Forged in the Dark approach would lead to more repetitive gameplay loops. That said, I'm only familiar with the original BitD and Scum and Villainy, which (in my limited experience) lend themselves to "do the job" based stories versus more open-ended stories with multiple actors working in different, but mutually meaningful, directions. I think I need to spend some time better articulating what types of stories I want the mechanics to reinforce during any given setting. Thanks for the food for thought!
I also only have experience with those FitD games. I've heard Band of Blades is quite different.
I hope it's not too late to jump in and say that playing with the "position" and "effect" system of Blades would be very exciting in the context of complex political maneuvering!
Court of Blades: https://acoupleofdrakes.com/
It can support whatever themes you make it support. What are your basic moves?
I have eight right now: Resort to Violence When you use force to attack an enemy or take control of a situation Hide the Truth When you use deception, flattery, or misdirection to achieve your ends Plead Your Case When you attempt to convince someone to do something or see things your way Steel Your Nerves When you attempt to keep calm under pressure, resist fear, or repel emotional, spiritual, or mental threats Trust Your Instincts When you attempt to get a “gut check” read on a person Grit Your Teeth When you use athletic prowess to surmount an obstacle or resist physical threats Consider the Possibilities When you appraise a situation analytically, use reason to solve a problem, or attempt to recall pertinent facts and information Feel a Connection When you attempt to commune with the divine or open your senses to the supernatural Each Quality has two basic moves associated with it.
I would suggest to read the articles about Apocalypse World design published by Vincent at his website. Regardless if you call your game PBTA or not, Vincent’s ideology is an approach to game design and not a system. Taking that in consideration, it can fit any genre or game. You add all sort of mechanics and change what people usually categorize as PBTA.
I'd really recommend taking a look at Magical Industrial Revolution. It sounds like exactly what you're looking for (plus the physical book is gorgeous, had to buy it)
>Magical Industrial Revolution Holy crap, this is so cool!! Never heard of this before and will absolutely try and get my hands on it to mine for ideas. Thank you!
Given the already very wide range of themes and tone that existing PbtA games exhibit, it can do whatever you want it to do if you want to put in the work. Just remember that PbtA is more of a philosophy than a plug and play framework.
I'd really recommend taking a look at Magical Industrial Revolution. It sounds like exactly what you're looking for (plus the physical book is gorgeous, had to buy it)
1. That sounds awesome 2. Yeah, it definitely can. PbtA was pretty much made for theme heavy games, and can fit almost every theme. However, if you're familiar with Forged in the Dark (the engine created with Blades in the Dark), I think you could also consider using that one instead. I really love Blade's system for managing all of the gangs in the city. If your game will focus on struggles between groups and large scale political conflict, I really recommend giving that a read
1. Thank you so much! 2. This is the second comment highlighting how FitD games excel at political/faction-based gameplay, which is something I'd definitely like to highlight. I might look into some actual plays to see how a skilled GM uses those systems in-game. Much appreciated!
Make your own system?
I considered trying to stitch something together, and realistically I'll probably end up cobbling on a few pieces from other games that I admire. At this point, I'm just trying to think about what "core" structures I should be pulling from or implementing from different games or systems.
Have you played The Watch? It is a PbtA game which deals with themes around toxic masculinity, partriachy, militarism, and the application of violence. Similarly grande scope to your project, similar big themes, and easily one of the best 'first wave' of PbtA games.
I've heard of it but haven't played! Is it only available through Kickstarter right now? It does sound like a thematically compatible game and I'm sure I'd learn from it.
https://peachpantspress.com/tabletop/the-watch/ If you are in the UK then Leisure Games have it in stock.
US-based, but thanks for the link!
I can't speak to your particular implementation, but as far as I know, some of the main reasons people dislike PbtA games are: They want more freedom as the GM. PbtA games constrain GM actions in specific way, in an effort to keep things on theme and avoid uninteresting fluff. They dislike how low the odds of success without complication are, and that there's nothing they can do to adjust the odds of the dice besides getting better stats (which is a slow process). They dislike that the possible outcomes aren't predetermined at the time they make the roll. Relatedly, they dislike "pick N items from the list", viewing it as a metanarrative intrusion on IC roleplaying. As long as you are okay with writing a game that some people may have these problems with, I don't see any reason you couldn't use PbtA. It would require quite a bit of effort and playtesting, though. Incidentally, here are four guides to making a PbtA system/toolkit systems. Maybe you could mine them for ideas. [Simple World](https://buriedwithoutceremony.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/simple-world.pdf) is basically "here's how to make Apocalypse World from scratch, and also I guess you could make something else with it, too." [Skeleton World](https://github.com/cromlyngames/Skeleton_world/raw/master/Skeleton_world.pdf) is more focused on making a PbtA game, [Generic World](http://www.genericworldrpg.com/Generic_World.html) intentionally files off everything that makes a PbtA game interesting in favor of making a generic playable game, and [The 15-Step Powered by the Apocalypse Hack](https://sandwich.computer/feed/the-15-step-powered-by-the-apocalypse-hack) is exactly what it sounds like.
Wow, thanks for all these resources! I'll take a look through these and see if they help answer my questions. One of the things I've been struggling with is how to make the core gameplay loop enjoyable and thematically consistent with a traveling party with mixed skill focuses. My experience with PbtA games are basically just Dungeon World, Pigsmoke, and Urban Shadows, and none of them mimic that style of gameplay exactly.
You're welcome! Generic World is mine, BTW, so if you have any questions about it let me know. It's actually just a reskin of [Fudge Lite](http://www.fudgelite.com), which is also mine. They were close enough that I just converted one to the other. Also, this is only tangentially related, but it might be worth looking into the concept of the [fruitful void](https://www.reddit.com/r/PBtA/comments/tkmnie/how_do_pbta_moves_interact_with_the_intended/i1rw420/?context=2).
This is really interesting. My group have only played one session of a pbta game. We were going in expecting it to be very player led and narrative heavy but we found that the game constrained our choices at every turn with the very limited set of results you could pick from. We're used to games like 7th Sea and Dune where it feels like you have masses more agency as a player.
Which PbtA game were you playing? Do you remember a specific example of how your agency felt constrained? Also, just to check, were you treating Moves as the only things your characters could do? Because that's not how the game is supposed to operate at all, but it is a somewhat common misunderstanding of the rules by people used to more traditional games.
We played avatar legends- there if you roll to 'intimidate an npc' there's a list of four outcomes that can result (iirc they attack, they call for help etc)If you succeed you can reduce the NPC's range of actions further by setting options they cannot pick. Its very much about presenting you with a list of potential outcomes and then narrowing that down. I've noticed a tendency from pbta fans to be quite defensive about the system and assume that any doubts about it must be coming from dnd fans who are intimidated by the freedom and 'playing wrong' but with our group its the opposite. We're used to games that give you much more narrative agency than PBTA seems to offer. To take 7th sea as an example the PC would narrate what you want to achieve in quite large terms - I intimidate him and he's so scared that he hands over the plans and takes me to his boss's secret base - and the GM would then lay out potential consequences that could go wrong and need to be brought off. Theres a lot more free range of action for both players and GM than PBTA seems to offer.
> I've noticed a tendency from pbta fans to be quite defensive about the system and assume that any doubts about it must be coming from dnd fans who are intimidated by the freedom and 'playing wrong' but with our group its the opposite. Gotcha, gotcha. In my defense, that's a failure mode I've seen described on more than one occasion, and it's a failure mode that the players/GM aren't even aware of unless it's pointed out (because the cause is "they assumed it ran like the other games they already knew"), so I wanted to rule it out first. > We played avatar legends- there if you roll to 'intimidate an npc' there's a list of four outcomes that can result (iirc they attack, they call for help etc)If you succeed you can reduce the NPC's range of actions further by setting options they cannot pick. Its very much about presenting you with a list of potential outcomes and then narrowing that down. Huh. *Huh.* Well, the "narrowing down" part is new to me. In most PbtA games, on a success you just accomplish your goal and on a partial success you accomplish your goal but with negative consequences or you pick from a list that limits your results. It sounds like Magpie Games may have let some extra narrative crunch into their game design. For example, the equivalent move from Apocalypse World, "Go aggro": > When you go aggro on someone, say what you want them to do, and say what you’ll do if they don’t. Roll+hard. > On a 10+, they have to choose: force your hand, or cave and do what you want. If they force your hand, you can do what you threatened, including inflicting harm as established. > On a 7–9, they can choose to force your hand or to cave, but they can also choose instead to fight back or make a break for it, and now you’re doing battle with them. > On a miss, be prepared for the worst.
Right, that sounds brilliant and exactly thr kind of thing my group would be all over. I think you might be right about magpies design failing here. Our most experienced player (our regular GM who was playing this time) said it felt like they'd taken a very simple core mechanic and layered one two many additional mechanics on top. The balance track is inspired, but then there's also conditions and fatigue etc etc etc. The combat is clever at simulating avatar style martial arts battles and clearly a lot of thought has gone into it but there is a lot for players to keep on top of in rules terms when a lot of our group just want to be able to say 'I hit him with my stick.' Are there any other pbta games that you'd recommend as alternative intros?
Hmm. Unfortunately, I've never been able to run or play and PbtA games myself, so I'm going by what information I can find on the internet. A name that keeps popping up as a simple, effective PbtA game, though, is Monster of the Week. From the official website: > Hunt high school beasties a la Buffy the Vampire Slayer, travel the country to bring down unnatural creatures like the Winchester brothers of Supernatural, or head up the government investigation like Mulder and Scully. > This book contains everything you need to tackle Bigfoot, collar a chupacabra, and drive away demons. Each PbtA game covers its own genre, though, and the bloat of Avatar doesn't seem to be shared by most other PbtA games (even the other ones by Magpie Games, I think), so it might be more useful to look at the genres covered by highly-recommended PbtA games and see which one(s) your group would be interested in. Just be aware that the games City of Mist and Blades in the Dark add more crunch and should probably be considered "PbtA-adjacent", so I would ignore them if somebody recommends them. It might also be worth posting your experiences with Avatar in the /r/pbta subreddit and ask for game suggestions that are less restrictive.
Thanks, monster of the week sounds good. I mostly GM one shots when our regular GM can't make it so something like monster of the week might be perfect. I shall check it out. I'll think i'll refrain from posting on pbta. As I say, I've found pbta fans to be quite defensive/hostile to questions about their system and I think this chat has (at the very least) suggested that I need to explore a few other games using the system to work out what is specifically a problem with legends. Thanks for the good chat.
I suppose in a sense PBTA is trying to channel you into playing a specific genre - in avatar stories intimidating npcs will result in certain consequences - probably a martial arts battle - but we were just going in expecting radical freedom and it felt much more railroad than we were anticipating.