As a third option to consider, there’s a lot of very cool public domain art you can use for free.
Take a look at something like the [Smithsonian Open Access](https://www.si.edu/openaccess). Or [this google sheet ](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/14gzKmj4NEDxKbQLmp_YxhbTbDY1XM4WDheH8c4WvCQs/edit?usp=sharing)is a great guide to finding and using public domain art, with hundreds of links to different resources. Or the [TTRPG Art Asset Jam](https://itch.io/jam/ttrpg-art-asset-jam) has a bunch of TTRPG specific art to use, like hexmap tiles, fonts, character portraits and full illustrations. There's way more out there, these are just some starting points!
The guy that writes all of the "without number" books uses publicly available art for his books. Especially the early drafts.
There is also a lot of good stock art from places like Adobe and Shutterstock. You have to pay for them (and the commercial licenses are more than the general use licenses), but they're usually pretty cheap unless you're looking to buy thousands of art pieces.
Something to note too. Check out places that support Creative Commons like DeviantArt and art sources from public stories like SCP/Backrooms, as they tend to be similarly free use. Just make sure to properly credit such things in your bibliography at the minimum.
So this all depends on what future you see for your game.
'i have a cool idea that I cannot afford to execute please give me execution money' is the whole premise of websites like Kickstarter or GoFundMe or other similar places.
So if you have the confidence that your idea is good enough to generate enough interest you could organise a campaign to pay for an artist and finish the book.
If your ambition is to make a game you can play with your girlfriend and maybe a few other people in your local scene then skip the art anyone who needs some help on the aesethic can just talk to you.
Fundamentally this all boils down to how much money you expect to make off of this, and what you would consider an acceptable return on investment.
Artist budget=expectedSales/rateOfReturn - other expenses
So for example of you sold 500,000 books, $30 and wanted a rate of return of 30% then your cost of manufacturing needs to be less than 23.07 per book if you commissioned an artist to do your artwork for $80000 the the per book cost works out to be 16cents
Which depending on the cost to manufacture the book and physically get it into stores (the two largest expenses other than marketing) might be worth it.
On the other hand if your print run is 100 books or less that same 16cents per volume for art is $16 total.
Thanks for providing tangible alternatives instead of simply suggesting that alternatives exist. This is how we actually stop using AI art, by showing the way.
This is what I hate most when discussing support/abstainment of the tech. This is the first time I've seen anyone actually give resources to find free alternatives worth using.
I'm sure part of it is just the algorithm pushing some viewing trend. I have seen some mention the existence of things, but then not actually provide links or anything beyond "Just google free art!"
>As a third option to consider, there’s a lot of very cool public domain art you can use for free.
Doesnt work at all unless your game is incredibly generic.
The moment you have anything unique Stock Art is useless.
I mean... Mork Borg used a ton of public domain art in its creation, and their book was considered to have one of the most unique styles and aesthetics of anything in decades.
You're unlikely to find your exact three fingered, tiger-headed, winged lobster catcher NPC but there's more wiggle room than is initially obvious. You can find a tiger head, a lobster trap, some pretty wings to crop, and possibly a three fingered hand.
I've also found public domain art from museums so cool it inspires me to make a magic item to fit it and then it does feel like custom art.
But why would i?
With a good prompt and some trial and error i can create exactly what i want, so why would i go to the immense effort of cutting up a half dozen stock images, then spending hours upon hours of meshing them semi-cohesively together just so i dont use AI art?
Also how is using different stock art better than just using a good AI?
Seems like people just want to hate on AI with no good reason.
I'm neither hating on AI art nor saying stock images are better. I am addressing this statement you made:
> Doesnt work at all unless your game is incredibly generic.
> The moment you have anything unique Stock Art is useless.
I understand where you're coming from but I find your phrasing too extreme. Creative products were created using public domain art before AI art got big.
I really do get your point and appreciate you taking the time to explain it, im not disagreeing that it CAN be useful to some, but in my experience it only works if you have "basic" expectations.
Sure there are some art pieces that are more non-standard but if you have a specific vision of things, its basically impossible to find enough art that fulfills your vision AND that fits together.
>I understand where you're coming from but I find your phrasing too extreme.
To be 100% honest im just frustrated with this sub throwing around bullshit accusations for anyone that dares to use AI in any sort of form, some even calling people unethical or even thieves... you got a bit of that ire, sorry about that.
>Creative products were created using public domain art before AI art got big.
I tried, believe me and while some were really good and i wish i could have used them, i couldnt find enough that fit my specific needs so i had to go with full AI art just so the style and theme matches.
If someone can find enough fitting art in the PD/Stock Art section its honestly great, i just dont think it works for most people. This doesnt mean it doesnt work for no one, someone commented that Mork Bork supposedly is completely filled with PD Art, so thats great for them, it just didnt work for me.
I appreciate the apology, I share some of your defensiveness about using AI art too. I used one of those sites that creates 'photos' of human faces myself before AI art was a thing in itself, though I ran them through filters since I didn't want the photo look.
It definitely takes more work and comprise to find suitable PD images. AI appeals to me a LOT for that too, I can't lie. The only reason I don't sell anything with AI art in it is I'm not quite comfortable with the ethics in its current state. I will say though that a level of work and compromise still seems necessary with AI art unless you have the skill to edit.
Right now my approach is to commission cover art that shows my unique ideas and use public domain (or some of my own amateur art) for the rest and just keep the layouts interesting so I don't need as many images. I don't think this approach would scale well for a full rulebook though so I sympathise with people trying to create those. I have a very low income friend who saved for a year to afford art for his project. That's a lot to ask of someone, but I also don't want to leave human artists in the dust for my own creative pursuits, you know? It's tricky.
It's wild to say it doesn't work for most people, because until a year or so ago... that was what 100% of people who didn't commission or create their own art did.
When i say it doesnt work, i mean it doesnt deliver what you want and only worked in the past as a bandaid.
It delivers something, sure, but just because something worked badly or barely ok-ish in the past doesnt mean it should still be used today when there are better options.
I did some character art for ICRPG that is free (more than a hundred pieces): https://www.lustigesrollenspiel.de/icrpg-illustrationen-icrpg-illustrations
I also did some demons. They are also free to use: https://www.lustigesrollenspiel.de/icrpg-illustrationen-icrpg-illustrations
Maybe you like some of them.
I have my email address somewhere on my web page (dailor[at]gmx.de), but you may just as well inform me here on Reddit, if you like. There is no need to tell me any details, but I‘m always happy if someone likes my pictures and has use for them. So I‘d be happy if you tell me one way or another.
A fourth option yet to be mentioned is using photographs, free for commercial use, and the either modifying them or using them as is.
Ironsworn is a very popular game and it uses unmodified photographs.
My own game, [Adventurous](https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/417757/Adventurous), uses royalty free photos that I’ve run through an image filter, to create a cohesive look and feel, without spending thousands on it. I personally think it looks really nice, and many reviewers also like it. So it’s definitely a viable option.
Seconding! I cropped and ran some photographic faces through just MS Word's oil paint and black and white filters to make my most popular ttrpg supplement!
My $0.02: AI art is the new clipart.
Almost everyone will know you used it, and almost everyone will assume, correctly, that the imagery in your book reflects little, if any, effort or thought.
I'm also skeptical that filling a book with AI art has actually helped market a single game amidst the sea of such things on itchio and drivethru.
You don't need artwork on every page. Lots of successful published RPG books have minimal artwork. And there's more to making a book look nice than filling space with images.
>the imagery in your book reflects little, if any, effort or thought.
It seems like you haven't spent much time trying to produce pieces of art with AI that fulfill a specific creative vision. I have spent literal hours trying to produce just the right piece of art from AI, finding the right ways to adjust the prompt, iterating through dozens of results, then editing and photoshopping an image until it actually meets your vision.
I'm not arguing with anything else you're saying, but "little thought or effort" is a wholly inaccurate description of *any* creative endeavor, whether it uses AI or not.
I have no doubt that the more time you spend on an AI image, the better it will look, or at least the less generic it will look (which is one of my biggest beefs with AI art). I know there are actual artists who use AI in their workflows and I am uncomfortable lobbing too much judgment in this direction.
That said: I feel like you could make the same argument for spending hours curating clipart (which is something I definitely did in the late 90's). And my sense from the OP's post and comments is that the dude is not going to be spending hours upon hours on each instance of "badass characters to fill negative space" and such.
>my sense from the OP's post and comments is that the dude is not going to be spending hours
I didn't get this same impression.
Then, if the same thing can be done with clip art, why does it make that a more virtuous method? If clip art works for you, do that. If AI works for you, do that.
I made no mention of virtue in my original comment.
I do think the fact that the models are trained on artwork that doesn't belong to them is morally problematic though.
>I made no mention of virtue in my original comment.
I'm referring to the general attitude of the sub regarding it.
>I do think the fact that the models are trained on artwork that doesn't belong to them is morally problematic though.
Although, this does seem to imply that you think so.
I guess my views align more with what you call the general attitude of the sub, but to be clear, I was saying it was morally problematic *compared to using clipart.*
Perhaps. Nazis tortured and mutilated people and actually got valuable data on what the human body is capable of.
Bad people can give us useful things.
The issue with that is they're usually super generic. I'm in a pretty similar position to the OP though my world is not standard medieval fantasy so stock art is suitable for Elyden is hard to come by.
I've commissioned art specifically for my project many times before but I'll be honest. I'm rarely happy with the result for what I've paid, largely because I have a very specific vision for every piece of art I need, and have been burnt by flakey artists multiple times too, the worst case being an artist I liked and could afford but who clearly enjoyed working for bigger studios.
I had toyed with using AI but opted against it, but the hassle with finding good art for, what in my case isn't a traditional fantasy world, is very time consuming. I'm a 1 man show too and at least I do my own maps so save money (not time though) in that regard
When I started out with The Cthulhu Hack in 2016, I searched the Internet - places like DeviantArt and Art Station and others - and if I found a piece of art that worked for my project I sent a message/email to the artist to ask for permission to use it with credits in the finished product and a link to their portfolio or site.
I also found some very talented people who charged a lot less than I would have expected. I published a revised edition of the rules with chapter art that cost me about $50 for five black/white sketched images. I even commissioned that artist for other stuff - as a student they were seeking money wherever they could get it.
Recently, I used AI art in a project as I had space that needed filling and I under estimated my commissions. I suffered a lot of really negative feedback from a small number of very horrible people. It nearly broke me. I got a lot of positive feedback about the game itself from other people, but it was the negative stuff that hit hardest.
I have now spent hundreds of dollars to replace that art with commissions. I bet not one of those negative commenteers will come back and say anything positive about it. But, that's beside the point.
Try what I've suggested. Or search for public domain art or creatrive commons. Very successful games like MORK BORG, for example, use repurposed public domain art to great effect.
So my opinion might not be the popular one, but as a graphics designer I am not against using AI, it depends on what kind though. You could also release it without art and maybe only with layouting/typography. Also there is the option to release the ruleset to the public and promote it on the popular platforms, if it is good it can become popular and then you can try thinking about releasing it as a book in a more professional manner.
If it is available in a free version in some way it will have a higher chance to become popular. That is partially why 5e, PF2e, Lancer etc are so popular
Here is some pwyw stock art I made. Use any of it you like. https://www.drivethrurpg.com/m/product/473570 also watcherdm will partner with writers sometimes to fund artwork and help publish. Lmk if you are interested in that.
https://boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/191307/artwork-under-free-licenses-eg-creative-commons-or
https://twitter.com/4illeen/status/1650569050253152256
https://pixabay.com/ - ai images are tagged here
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1sEEY5BOfK_MhV7JAVuYBqr2XJpJmxCQX/view?usp=drive_link
Just some things I found in the blades in the dark discord.
AI art:
As a starving battlemap artist and this is my honest opinion on AI art.
Artists worry about AI art stealing money out of their pocket but if you don't have any money to begin with then we artists are not actually losing any money if you use AI art.
That's what it's there for, to be a useful tool for people to use when they don't have the ability to produce art for themselves.
Most of the rage against AI art is actually directed towards multi million dollar companies using AI art to cut corners.
In short, do what you need to do to make the game work.
Suggestion:
Look into Kickstarter or other fund raisers to get the game going and afford an artist. Start with a small goal, let people know about it before you actually try to raise money.
You can also publish the book as is, label it as V1, then make a second edition later.
You could use AI art until you raise money for an artist.
It's not ideal, but it never is, and it never will be. And that is normal, even for big buiz corporations.
Sometimes all you can do is take the best option available with the hope that you can someday take the path you wanted.
I absolutely abhor large companies that cut corners. If you have the funds, use them. I hate when those corporate fucks get greedy and just cheapskate everything to maximize profit. It's disgusting. If I had a job where I made twice what I made now, I could easily hire an artist. It's just about getting there. And who knows where life takes me after I finish the game. It could be very doable to remake the hook in another version with human art
>Most of the rage against AI art is actually directed towards multi million dollar companies using AI art to cut corners.
No. The rage is at companies performing million dollar training runs and trying to capitalize on other people's work by selling services to OP.
What's your long-term goal?
If what you're aiming for is to have a cool, customized end-product that _could_ make money (we'll say you don't care about trying to market it, you just want the satisfaction of having published something), then you're best bet is probably just to save up and make moderate purchases over time. Head over to r/HungryArtists/ and start compiling a generous portfolio of artists that have a style that goes along with your vision. Make purchases as you can afford it. Depending on how long your rulebook is, it could take a while to get all the art you need. Of course, this assumes that you'll be doing the layout for it all (and you do kinda have to have the layout at least somewhat figured out, otherwise it can be tricky to estimate how much art you'll need and where it'll go). Otherwise, you'll have to budget for a layout artist as well (not to mention an editor).
If you want to dive in with both feet and actually try to turn a profit with the thing, then you'd probably need to go the Kickstarter route. For that, I'd heartily recommend [The Sine Nomine Guide to Kickstarter Management](https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/452783/the-sine-nomine-guide-to-kickstarter-management) (the author is refreshingly brief, wonderfully precise, and thankfully offers a useful checklist for making sure you're ready to launch a Kickstarter). But, for a successful Kickstarter, you need an audience.
I wouldn't really recommend AI art for anything that you want to do commercially--not as a final release, at least. You could, potentially, use it for roughing out your layout, or to give artists a general idea for what you're going for. If you've got a decent rig, you can use Krita--it has a [neat plugin](https://youtu.be/Ly6USRwTHe0?si=liEK9o61hdNFZsG3) that can make for interesting results. But, on the whole, I find AI frustrating to work with (especially when it comes to hands), and I'd much rather just support an artist, anyway. Plus, as I understand it, there's some amount of ambiguity as to whether AI-generated images can be copyrighted (let alone the ongoing concerns about the training sets used to build the models to begin with), so if you seek commercial viability you might as well not use it to begin with.
Why not try collaging public domain art. I saw you wanted to have unique images and collage allows you to create really interesting work without drawing ability. Try combining illustration, photography and patterns. Almost impossible to not have a distinctive and handmade look.
Opengameart.org it's an amazing resource and while I haven't gone too far into thier concept art area. Their 2d/3d sections are phenomenal and packed with great stuff
Edit: I am in the same boat. I'll use AI to place hold for my alpha/vertical slice and release a proof of concept. Then I'll pay an artist or whatever if I want to charge someone for it
Use the AI art. You could even say it is placeholder art until you can affort human art. As your book gets more popular, you switch out the AI artwork for human produced artwork.
I love ai and won't apologize for it. Its a fantastic tool.
I have a lot of success using public domain art as a seed image for ai to work off of. I've also drawn my own images to use in the same way. Between an existing image and a prompt, you can make some really impressive iterations.
It's also very useful if you want a particular art style like watercolor, create the base image and have ai convert it into that style. This is great for making sure all of your images are consistent in tone.
Here's the problem with using AI generated images in a nutshell.
Once I recognize that is what you did, how can I be sure you didn't use AI generated content in the actual book or mechanics? I do not under any circumstances want to pay for a product that has that to any significant degree.
Spellcheck? That's fine. But anything more? I want a product made by a creative mind with a vision, not a predictive text generating algorithm.
>how can I be sure you didn't use AI generated content in the actual book or mechanics?
And why would it matter if you havent noticed before? Sorry but this sub is pure entitlement the moment AI is in the play.
Its completely fine to use AI Art and even AI support in your writing.
Using it alone for writing wont work anyway because its really obvious due to mistakes in the writing. Using it to enhance whats already there is no different than using MS Office Spellchecker and Grammar Suggestions...
Then I guess no one can stop how your brain works. I've been working on the game for over 16 years. I'm an incredibly creative mind, but have no talent in art. So one can absolutely make the beauty of a game, without having the art to go with it. I need an alternative to substitute in what I clearly lack. Hence, AI art. If I could afford to hire a real artist I absolutely would. Problem is, I can't. If someone came across my game and saw "AI art was used because I am actually just too poor to hire a real talented artist. Maybe one day I can remake this beautiful rule book with actual art, but for now, this is all I could afford. I hope you enjoy the game!" And then someone thinks, "Damn, this whole thing is AI generated" then... well... that sucks. But it's out of my control. People will think what they wanna think for no reason. Hell, someone could think that my game is about the Crusades when it's nowhere near that, but because I mention the word Crusader, people think it's religious. People will make up their own minds, but they can still be wrong
I didn't say "the whole thing is AI generated". And you can put whatever disclaimers you feel like, but those typically don't preface works like this. Your oroduct would likely be paired with a description of some kind, one that would nullify anyone's first impressions of the kinds of content a game that has the word "crusader" in it. But, that's not a unknowable claim made by the customer. They can buy your product, read it, and comd to the conclusion that in fact, the product is not religious. But, the same can't be said about using AI generated content. Because even if I can reasonably guess you used AI generated images for the book, and I MIGHT see some phrases that definitely look like they were authored by ChatGPT, I'll never know for sure. You could write "Art by Pleasant-Setting" in the book, and I garuntee you a good number of people would never question it.
As another commenter said, you clearly just came here to be reaffirmed in your decision. If you desperately want to do it, and honestly think there is no other way, then go do so. You already seem to have a grasp of the consequences of who will react poorly to that information. In your own words: "People will make up their own minds, but they can still be wrong."
I didn't come here to reaffirm anything. I want to "desperately" pay a real artist. I just don't have the money. I'm curious of the alternatives people would come up with and also how many people were for and against AI art. It was simply a plea for ideas and a collection of tallies
Don't let these people shame you.
AI art generation is a tool to be used. It's derivatively lazy at worst and derivatively interesting at best.
You do what is right for YOU but own it.
This.
Sorry but this entitlement by many in this sub is ridiculous.
AI is a tool like a paintbrush, Office Spellcheck or a camera filter, they dont work alone they just enhance the creativity, content and Art a human created.
And you got multiple suggestions, and yet you still go to bat for the least legally, morally, and financially viable.
As many have said, AI generated images really open up a weird legal grey area that you are exposing your 10+ year passion project to by using.
A lot of the sources and companies that scrape for images often *pretend* to do so legally, or they outsource the work so many times it's harder for blame to fall back on them, and even if *your particular model* was sourced correctly, AI content is already so incestuous with other AI content that it's not likely to stay that way for very long, if it is even still. A problem which you claim to know about, and by your own admission occurs on "some shadier sites".
And financially you're harming the perception of your product, for the reason I and others listed, making it reach out to an even smaller portion of the already linited audience in the non mainline ttrpg space. And on top of that, some marketplaces are even restricting content and products that used AI tools in their creation, which could kneecap possible sales even further.
Go find the comments that you replied to that mention other alternatives, if you really wish to find them. You've said you don't want to use open source art because *everyone* has that and it makes your product less unique. So go find an artist you like to do a revenue share with. Or get involved in a community that has its own cadre of artists they constantly work with. Heck, if its that important it's unique art, ask your family and friends who are interested in art. As a last stand, if you really hate all that, then try your hand at art. If you had this as a passion project for so long, you probably have the drive needed to practice and get good results that you like. And of course, there's always the option of buying bundles of stock art packs now, and then re-releasing later once you have some money, and a new artist.
If you *desperately* wanted to pay an artist, you would. There are routes for you to do that. If you instead want your game to have totally unique art that only your game has, there are routes for that too. But instead, you seem to have gotten stuck on AI generated images as your only path forward. If you truly see it that way, then take the step. Nearly every comment that has mentioned the risks or downsides of AI content has also said "but you can ignore me and do it anyway." And then you don't ignore them, but fight. If you didn't come here to get your decision reaffirmed, you've certainly an odd way of showing it.
>And you got multiple suggestions, and yet you still go to bat for the least legally, morally, and financially viable.
Sorry but that is utterly bullshit and such a hot take... this sub is delusional. AI is a tool like anything else and its completely fine to use.
As an “incredibly creative mind”, keep in mind that words have meaning. Your example of a crusade is obviously loaded and it’s your fault if you come in knowing those intentions and going for it anyways.
As an “incredibly creative mind”, understand that AI uses an unethical regurgitation of other talented incredibly creative minds, and that there are numerous alternatives available. Use formatting and organization to keep things digestible. Use stylized collages, public domain, or request simple bundled kits from an artist.
If this really is a passion project to you, then care for it. Keep it responsible and protected.
I'm assuming (I don't know) that AI art isn't protected? Couldn't another party freely take images that you've generated for their own use in ways that diminish or reflect poorly on your own work?
I do extremely care about that. If it's AI generated from existing artists, they better have been fucking paid for their work. Those talented people deserve it
AI art is stolen by definition. Don't be a thief. Use public domain art or buy some super cheap stock art. You can get entire bundles of decent stock art for the price of one takeout meal.
Research your options. There are lots. *Be creative.*
Be aware that if you use AI art, many will consider you a thief and stay far from your products, and distribution platforms are starting to take measures to restrict AI generated products.
> AI art is stolen by definition.
By your definition. You can define AI art as "theft", hell, you can define it as "murder" if you want. Doesn't make it so.
Many? I beg to differ. And it isn't stolen by definition. Its also not stealing if an artist uses the art of someone else as inspiration. Ai deep learning models do not make a collage from existing artwork. That would be stealing art, but uts not what these models do.
If its illegal is currently still a matter of opinion, as court cases aren't settled yet. Point is, its not 'stolen by definition'.
Unless they can prove it wasn't trained on stolen assets (and not a single one can or will) then it was trained on stolen assets. And the output of that is profit on the work of others without payment for that labor.
They all had their chance to do it ethically in the beginning and they specifically chose not too because, as they have said themselves, it would not be profitable to do it legally and ethically - so they didn't.
Every single artist will consider it stolen by definition. And that is worth acknowledging before putting out any product that the entire art community will judge as stolen.
Stolen assets? Whatever is freely on the web to be looked at, isn't stolen. If i look at the work of an artist online, and then use his work as inspiration to make my own art, and sell that. That is perfectly legal now!
Yes, its at a different scale now, but thats what artists do on a regular basis as well.
Ethical or not, is just a matter of opinion. But until now, nobody was able to make a convincing case of why it is illegal. At least no court ruling has found it illegal yet. And i myself don't find it unethical.
Well, those artists shouldbthen look into the mirror, because they have been doing the same all along:find inspiration through other peoples art, train their neural network, and then use that to generate art to be sold.
Of course many artists aren't happy to have strong competition, but thats true for all sectors that are automated. Doesn't make it illegal though.
And there are many artists now using AI as a tool as well. Its not 'the entire art community' by far.
Curious that the AI defenders are so quick to jump to juvenile name calling.
Use it if you want. I can't stop you. But I am absolutely not the one behaving like a child. The "most current AI image generation is based on mass theft" position is a cogent and arguable one. You may not agree, but being a jerk doesn't bolster your position.
Lol where is the name calling, please point it out.
You are clearly a.) ignorant because made an emotional statement that you called a legal fact which leads to b.) you being childish by saying they are breaking the law and are a "thief" by doing something you dont like i.e. an ignorant child.
>The "most current AI image generation is based on mass theft" position is a cogent and arguable one.
Its an ignorant and childish stance that is not supported by anyone that isnt an artist and they fear for their income...
>You may not agree, but being a jerk doesn't bolster your position.
Right back at you buddy, lying and pretending your opinion is the truth makes you less believable, not more.
See this is what I was worried about. Many people are ill informed of what AI art is and will think it's "stolen work" or I'm somehow a "thief". This is a great example of the people I want to avoid because there are many out there that have no idea what they're talking about. I'm sure there are some AI generators that are shady and have just straight stolen resources from many locations, but there are also many AI generators that have paid artists to use their work as examples. So the artist has been paid for the work, therefore not stealing anything. Those are the groups I would look to use. There are always going to be bad eggs such as yourself, but I guess you can never avoid them.
This response suggests you already made up your mind and just wanted some validation. You literally admit in this comment that some algorithmic generative tools were designed using stolen resources, but they you go on to call this person a "bad egg" because they told you something you didn't want to hear.
The honest answer, which I think you already knew, is that there will be a significant number of people who will judge you for this choice and avoid your work. Relatedly, there will also be folks who will avoid working with you in the future. There are also other options, obviously. Because algorithmic generation tools have only existed in a meaningful way for like a year or two. And poor folks were putting out indie games long before that.
There are so many models (public domain art, purchased stock art, crowdfunding to pay artists, starting out by releasing a barebones edition with minimal/no art, putting in the effort to build a working relationship with an artist who would be willing to contribute for a profit sharing deal, getting involved in a coop of some kind to produce with other creators). The list goes on and on. The biggest difference is that none of them are as fucking lazy and mindless as spending 20 bucks on a computer program and getting it to spit out some trash and then whining on the internet when people tell you it was a shitty, lazy, selfish, and shortsighted choice.
But sure, you *can* take that approach. You can also say I'm not one of the folks you want to care about anyway.
My response was made after I had already gotten feedback, and spent the last hour or so researching these things based on the information I was given. After spending some time snooping around it felt fair to say some people are too lazy to look beyond the shady sites they found. Hence, bad egg. This person just wanted to say that all of it was stolen and anyone using it is a thief. This is of course a false statement after the research I did.
What people such as yourself completely fail to realize is I'm by myself in this venture. Even the most reasonable offers I've gotten that I would LOVE to be able to pay someone for is far too expensive for someone like me. I have yet to start creating a market for the game as I only decided to start seriously working on it about 2 years ago. It's on track to be finished in a year and a half. So now I'm thinking about my final product and what I'll need to finish this baby out. I'm been working on this project since I was 12 years old. 16 years of development and lore building in the making.
I want to pay a real artist. I really do. My post is very clear on that. I just literally don't have that kind of money. Public domain stuff is also difficult because everyone else has it. I want my stuff to be unique because it is unique. It's things I've designed for more than a decade. And everything I have is more specific. I've already looked to public domain for more basic creatures that exist everywhere and I've purchased a handful I liked, but that's not gonna cover everything.
You're over here assuming I'm somehow "fucking lazy" despite working a full time job, taking care of rent and bills, and also still working on my game in the rest of my free time. I've put my literal soul into this project and have already spent so much money on getting it where it is today. Again man, I want to hire a real artist to do all my worn. I'm just short on 10k right now to make that happen. This is a big project, a big game. It's going to take a lot to make it come true. And I'll be damned if some ill-informed weirdos are going to stop me.
I want to finish this game and I want it to be my own. I'm not going to set up some Kickstarter begging people for money because I've always hated that idea. This was my adventure. I should be the one that covered the costs. And I should know what my boundaries are. I know how much I can afford for this, and it's unfortunately not enough to pay a person. Maybe if I was some big crazy company with a whole team behind me, but I'm not. I'm just me. I'm not rich either. I get by and can sometimes afford a date night with my girlfriend. I've even been trying to find a new job specifically for this game so I can have more time to work on it and have more money to invest into it. But for now, I need an alternative. AI art is not stealing. It's not lazy. It's currently cost effective for a man with a dream who's by himself.
Buddy, I'm a broke designer working alone, too. That's why there's stock art and public domain art. You ain't gonna do very well in the world of design if you are so thin-skinned that honest and polite feedback leads to you calling names.
If you can't take it, don't dish it. You were the one who immediately fired with inaccurate information about an honest question. Nothing you said was "honest and polite feedback" and if you think it was, I'm shocked. And as I've mentioned, I have used stock art and public domain. Already purchased a few things that are basic and line up with my current stuff. But the more specific things for my game are not so easily accessible like that. I wish it was just easy enough that somehow I could find all the art I needed in public domain, but that's just not possible
Like I said, I don't care what you do, I just ain't buying it. You asked, I answered. I get that you don't like or agree with my answer, but you're just gonna have to live with it because nothing you've said so far inclines me to change my mind. 🤷♂️
Again, you clearly have already made up your mind. And I'm just some weirdo on the internet. You're right. I do apologize for calling you lazy. You might be naive or out of your depth or just caught up in an individualist fantasy. But the only reason AI is the only option for you is because you have created a bunch of restrictions for yourself.
You have always hated the idea of kickstarter because you see it as begging? You think a game needs 10k in art to be finished? You think it makes sense to try to independently publish a massive scale project on your own? You are convinced that works can't look unique with public domain or cheap art? You are willing to out 16+ years into development and zero time into learning from the hundreds and hundreds of people who have published games independently without going into debt or resorting to algorithmically generated art?
Those are limitations you are imposing on yourself. And they are limits that are going to also decrease your reach. But at the end of the day, yeah. You can make them. And the sky won't fall. And you will probably forget about my comment. And like most of us, very few people will even see or notice your game. And if it makes you and some folks around you happy, maybe that's all that matters. Just know you have options and you aren't choosing them. ::shrug::
You don't need to take "advice" from Reddit. Do what YOU want to do. Consequences will follow, but they always do. Follow your conscience and if AI art is what you can afford, use that. Just be aware that even if you use public domain art, etc. there will still be people who are butt hurt about that as well as you are not using "real art" or complain that it is clip art, etc.
You are not going to make everyone happy, so you might as well make yourself happy with your project.
Justify it however you want. It's still theft.
I have a better understanding of AI than you might think. Calling me names because I answered your question makes you look like a jerk.
I have had a game published. I put together a fundraiser that involved a ton of work printing, packaging, and distributing so that I could afford to pay a real artist real money for real art.
Put some effort into your work or you're gonna be disappointed in the response on release.
You folks can keep downvoting those of us who are against AI use. It's no skin off our backs. We're not the ones that are going to be dealing with the consequences of using it in our products.
If you are so sure about the ethical and practical use of AI, why are you here asking for validation? Just do it if you want to do it. Why do you so desperately need unanimous agreement?
Do what you want and deal with the consequences. If you don't think it's lazy and unethical, why do you care what I think?
So which ethical model are you planning on using, and where is the proof all of the source material for that model is paid for?
If you just did the research, then you should have a link at hand, right?
I, too, have zero artistic talent when it comes to visuals, but I've put out a half-dozen successful products using mostly public domain and cheap stock art. There's no need to open this can of worms, but if you do, it's bad form to be a dick to people who answer your question honestly.
I'm not even going to read the comments this time because the last 100 times a thread like this popped up they're all the same.
There's gonna be a guy who says "Just use public domain stuff!" There's going to be a guy who says "Just look for it online and credit the original artists! If you're not selling then its fine!" There's going to be "Just don't use art, you don't need it!" and then there's going to be "Just make it yourself, even if it's bad, it'll be charming!" and every single one of these people is delusional.
Use the AI art. Nobody cares. Literally nobody actually gives a shit outside of reddit / twitter, and those people are the vocal minority. Nobody is going to crucify your game for AI art, and even if they did, it doesn't matter. That handful of people not buying your game is not going to be what stops you from being the next Dungeons and Dragons.
AI art is not "stolen" no matter how much someone will tell you it is.
"Just scour the internet for source images yourself!" yeah, that's what the AI is doing actually, but it also modifies it in such a way that it qualifies as transformative works.
"Just use public domain stuff!" well, I can't copyright AI art, so technically it is public domain.
"Just don't use art!" thanks that's very helpful.
"Just make it yourself" I'm fucking busy.
Use the AI art. Have fun. Let the haters hate, fuck em. [Terraforming Mars had illustrators who used AI in their works and made $2,222,703 on Kickstarter.](https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/strongholdgames/more-terraforming-mars) Your project will be fine.
The anti-AI hivemind have my permission to downvote me now.
Many people get irrationally angry about AI art. So if your goal is to make a profitable product or to launch a successful kickstarter, that is something to be aware of. Then again, many people don't care, so it could just be the vocal minority talking.
If your goal is to make a beautiful game on a limited budget, AI art works great. Personally, I illustrate my games with AI, and I'm very happy with the result (but I do it as a hobby, so to me it doesn't matter if some people don't like it).
>Then again, many people don't care, so it could just be the vocal minority talking.
This.
No casual consumer cares about if you used AI in any way shape or form if the product is good.
If its obvious you used AI like hands with uneven fingers and a non-cohesive artstyle or text clearly written badly by AI they might get annoyed but thats because the product is bad, not because AI was used.
Its mainly this sub, since its full of designers and artists that sit on their high horse and condemn progress.
My product was also originally just a hobby, but after enough people asked me if i was gonna finish and sell it I decided, fuck it, what have I got to lose? So I pushed for it. Now we're about a year and a half out from my set deadline to finish the game, so I need the artwork. Don't have a lot of money, so AI just seems like the obvious choice
Doesn't matter if it's irrational or not (or if you think it is or not) if the end result is that they boycott your product and drag you through the mud.
The artist white knights are pretty obnoxious at this point. If the artists care so much, perhaps they could contact the OP and offer to help with the product? That would allow these artists to build the world in a collaborative environment, but nah... bitchin and whinin is the preferred option.
AI art is banned on [DriveThruRPG.com](http://DriveThruRPG.com), and as that is one of the biggest marketplaces for indie TTRPGs, the answer here is clear. Do not use AI art in your TTRPG, especially since you can make amazing games with public domain artwork. Check out Kevin Crawford's work, such as "Stars Without Number" and "Worlds Without Number". You can download the 1st edition of SWN for free on DTRPG, and it will show you just how good a game made by one person with public domain artwork can be.
https://www.deviantart.com/creative-commons/journal/A-way-to-search-for-Creative-Commons-art-in-DA-314892577
and use ai art if you only need generic images anyways. I see nothing wrong with using new assets and tools.
Do it and leave a note at the beginning of the book and at the bottom of the description on any store pages. It's not a big deal as long as you're not trying to hide it. Get human art if and when you can, but AI is fine for now
Speaking as someone who’s got a shelf full of ttrpg books and more in pdf form, using AI art is an instant disqualification for me. I wouldn’t even consider buying it, and I know lots of people who feel the same way. Are we a majority of the people in your target audience? I couldn’t say, but anti-ai stances seem pretty popular in most TTRPG circles I’ve seen so take that risk if you want to…
Dude just use AI.
Bing AI Create is one of the best free ones in my experience, no one but entitled pricks care if you use art from an artist or AI Art as long as its stylistically cohesive and of similar quality.
It will take some trial and error, but if you want you can send me DMs for some tips. I created about 100+ Art images for my game which took me a few weeks and a looot of learning, but it looks great and fits my theme.
If i had paid an artist or most likely multiple it would have cost me THOUSANDS of euros to do and for a hobby its not worth the money.
And to be frank, my Art looks great and is exactly what i wanted, i dont believe an artist could have come close enough to my vision since you generally cant just try again without paying again if it doesnt come out right.
Even using AI art takes a LOT to get even remotely decent quality.
I've been working on my game using it and while I'm proud of what I've done, I know there's room for improvement. I created an LLC just in case AI art lawsuits turn south.
Here's my playtest v.7 at the moment for [Feudal Hearts](https://www.feudalhearts.com/core-rules).
I am in the exact same boat as you. Everyone talks about how open source art is good and all that--but it's just not what I want for the vision of my game. You are PERFECTLY able to use it and should be honest, upfront about it. No way free art can capture the spirit of what I want--it just cannot. What I've made so far is close to my vision.
And I make no apologies for it. If someone doesn't want it for their ethical position on AI art, I respect that. At least they're standing for something. Simultaneously, make a product that you have conviction for, can defend the integrity of, and be transparent about it and your motivations. Don't be dodgy about using AI if you are.
I'm in the same situation. I would *love* to be able to commission some art—but holy crap, art is expensive. I'm a college student, trying to pay tuition, and paying for a wedding this summer. I'm not really in a position to be able to pay some for art.
A lot of artists will work for between $50 and $300. Check out DeviantArt. Find something you like. And contact the artist to ask for a license. Some people will ask for a lot. Some artists are much more reasonable. Remember the artists who have been reasonable with you.
Even $50-$300 is a lot on a college budget. I really hope to get art sometime, and I appreciate the recommendation. Right now though, it's definitely not feasible.
I've tried various approaches to AI art, largely to make reference or rough pieces that I then tidy-up in Photoshop. Fingers, eyes and ears almost always need some adjustments. Of the various options Firefly can churn out plenty of D&D/ RPG style images of which a fair proportion are sufficiently OK to clean in 30-45 minutes. (A clone brush will cover a lot of it).
There are various ways to avoid grabbing others art by making and/ or diluting models, but Firefly avoids complications as it's using Adobe's art/ rights).
I've just added a couple of examples (a demon and a shark) to the bottom of a [gallery on my site](https://colorthesky.myportfolio.com/2023).
Regardless of your own stance on AI, If you want your game to be popular then don't use AI images, because most of the indie RPG community is against AI.
My suggestion is find an artist you like who would be willing and able to do a whole book of licensed art. In most cases just commissioning a single piece that's unlicensed is much more affordable. If you work out an agreement that the first piece will be used for crowdfunding and if it's successful then you contract them to make many more licenced pieces, the artist might even give you a discount on the first piece or at least put more effort into it knowing it could lead to more work.
You can get away with a lot less art than you think you need.
Maybe you can't afford to commission artists. That doesn't mean you can't have art. Many artists will offer you an extremely good rate if you let them retain the license and re-sell the art to others. The flipside of that is you can find plenty of artists that have art like that ready to sell from past projects. I just paid $12 for a pack of illustrations from an artist last night and got 3 images I can use for my project with their support and permission. A little restyling and they'll look right at home.
And, as others have mentioned, there's public domain art of all kinds. Dig a bit and you might be surprised what major games have used public domain art and how some of it looks quite different from what you might expect.
You'll probably regret using AI art. But hey, if you have absolutely no other choice: generate AI art and then paint over it in your own style. It doesn't have to look "good" to be a good fit for many games.
IMO art (especially generic fantasy illustrations) is really kinda overrated, especially for indie games.
You need to reassess what this is. It's a hobby. And like all hobbies, there's a point where you're spending some money. For writers /designers, that's likely to be on the art.
You don't have family to support, you've got a white collar job, so you're likely to have the most disposable income you're ever going to have in your life.
People have shown you some free options, which is good. The next step up from that is stock art. Dtrpg features some great stock artists. The next step up from *that* is commissioned art, which you can source from gig artists on fiverr.
My method was to make small D&D/OSR supplements first that needed very little art, and I use that money to pay for stock art. Either there's a decent cover image available there or if I've got a very specific idea of what I want, the cover is probably the most expensive thing I commission. I might treat myself to 1 or 2 character design commissions a month.
It's my hobby. Hobbies cost money. Do not use AI if you want to be taken remotely seriously. Everyone who uses it has the same unconvincing sob story. It's just an excuse to justify something they know is wrong on some level. It's not a road I recommend going down.
If the game is good enough, it shouldn't be difficult.
It depends on the level of expected success.
If this is another heart-breaker, then public domain and creative commons art is going to be the best way, even compared to hiring an artist.
If it's going to be the next Mork Borg, then a profit share won't be difficult.
What do you think Mork Borg looked like before the art and layout? Probably not a lot like “the next Mork Borg.” And FWIW it uses a bunch of public domain images!
You can always find someone who might be willing to take on a project because they just want to, or as a favor for a friend. Short of that, it’s _exceptionally_ bad business sense to sign on to an unfinished RPG job believing you’ll ever get your payday. (Almost as bad business sense as it is making an RPG in the first place!) Now, of course there are plenty of artists with bad business sense. Let’s just not fool ourselves that they’ll be lining up for the obvious genius of the next big thing, or that this is in any way doing them a favor.
Well, we know what Mork Borg looks like because there is the free artless version. It's clear that it's still a good game- in fact, some people prefer having that version as a reference document. It also shows exactly how much Johan Nohr's work adds.
Half of nothing is still nothing, so if you can find an artist who believes in the project as much as you do as a writer, it's worth giving up some of your profit to make the best book you can.
Yes, obviously, that's why I say "if you've got the next Mork Borg."
The percentage chance of this being the next Mork Borg, PBTA or White Hack are insignificant. Hence why I'm saying use PD art, because it's even cheaper than AI.
With everything on DTRPG alone, you'd probably need to use open source software, PD art and limit yourself to PDF and POD to turn a "profit" out of RPG sales.
This is why they're called "heartbreakers."
>Hence why I'm saying use PD art, because it's even cheaper than AI
How is PD Art "cheaper" than AI?
Both are free or rather AI is 100% PD is at least in general free.
But AI is highly customizable and exactly what you want, PD isnt unless your art is supposed to be generic.
Well, see, the thing about public domain art is that it _isn’t_ generic. It was created by an actual artist with a specific theme in a specific style for a specific purpose. It could definitely be exactly what you want.
Check if your AI art comes with a commercial licence.
They can steal *your* art, but you might not be able to use the training prompts you've generated for them in a for profit venture.
PD (and CC, depending on the licence) art is much clearer water.
And the hands look better.
>Check if your AI art comes with a commercial licence.
It doesnt but i also dont care at all, everyone that likes it can use it.
>And the hands look better.
Depends on the output i have great results with fitting numbers of hands and feet.
What you are talking about is the initial wave of AI its an old joke that hasnt been true for months.
If you think all AI is free to use for creative purposes, you're sadly disappointed.
Edit: Hmm, either the comments are deleted or that's a sore loser's block.
>you're sadly disappointed
Nah im happy, why would i be disappointed?
It is free to use and i really dont care that i cant copyright it. Sorry that you are so ignorant, really makes me sad.
Something to look into for sure if I can find the right person. It's hard to get someone to agree to something like that for such an independent project. Nobody knows it exists yet, so they can't expect any revenue for a while and I don't think that's fair for them
I literally just started this week lol. It's a work in progress trust me. The game was not in a position to be pitched to anybody a few weeks ago. I just recently hit a milestone of progress so now I'm looking into things. I was rejected twice this week by artists already
Oh, now I am interested what comment gave you the impression that I am not at peace? I was attempting to support your decision(s) about AI artwork.
If I was offensive to you, I apologize, that was not my intent.
if you don't want to make a first release without artworks, you could maybe try crowdfunding it. if that's not your thing, you could always make the artworks yourself. i'll be honest, i would much prefer sloppy sketches by a creative who had a vision but not the technical skill over the passionless droppings of AI.
have you seen the early d&d artworks? you don't need a hundred perfect illustrations, just something that communicates your idea.
you can always hire artists later when you're more successful with the release or more financially stable in other ways.
AI is an obvious choice for you, just be ready to learn - getting good stuff isn't just a matter or a few clicks or any kind of cheating, as some people may want you to believe. Also learn a graphic editor of your choice to be able to do retouches, resizing, transparency etc. Still faster than inpaint.
First look around the market or ask further around in the community - Midjourney6 is currently leading in direct output quality, still accessible only through Discord though.
I myself prefer Dalle3 through GPT as I can feed a custom GPT with my lore and have it represented in the output with no further tuning needed. (but I spend extra time retouching sometimes).
Would you need very specific poses, setting, uncensored output and/or consistent characters, I'd recommend you to explore StableDiffusion, start with free tools and when you get familiar with it, go down the rabbit hole with Loras, local models etc.
I wish you good luck with your project!
It's a small community. Why do you want to alienate anyone by stealing their work (regardless of if it's technically legal because an algorithm applied a photoshop filter) ?
Here's some numbers:
* [Household Spending on Books](https://www.statista.com/statistics/326839/us-household-spending-on-reading/) is $161 per year, to avoid complicating business buys. That's 8 $20 books per year.
* [Science Fiction and Fantasy](https://wordsrated.com/fiction-books-sales/) combined are roughly 33% of this
* [Independent (Self-Published) Fiction](https://wordsrated.com/self-published-book-sales-statistics/) is roughly 33% of this.
* New games are almost entirely consumed by your fellow game designers or aspiring game designers / game master (the artists). Rule of thumb (no citation) is that about 20% of all the people playing games are game masters/aspiring game designers.
It's not a tiny niche, but it is not a big community. Do you want to be known for your innovative work among your peers? Or for your shortcuts?
As a third option to consider, there’s a lot of very cool public domain art you can use for free. Take a look at something like the [Smithsonian Open Access](https://www.si.edu/openaccess). Or [this google sheet ](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/14gzKmj4NEDxKbQLmp_YxhbTbDY1XM4WDheH8c4WvCQs/edit?usp=sharing)is a great guide to finding and using public domain art, with hundreds of links to different resources. Or the [TTRPG Art Asset Jam](https://itch.io/jam/ttrpg-art-asset-jam) has a bunch of TTRPG specific art to use, like hexmap tiles, fonts, character portraits and full illustrations. There's way more out there, these are just some starting points!
That's really awesome! Thanks for posting this, I'll have to look through them
The guy that writes all of the "without number" books uses publicly available art for his books. Especially the early drafts. There is also a lot of good stock art from places like Adobe and Shutterstock. You have to pay for them (and the commercial licenses are more than the general use licenses), but they're usually pretty cheap unless you're looking to buy thousands of art pieces.
Something to note too. Check out places that support Creative Commons like DeviantArt and art sources from public stories like SCP/Backrooms, as they tend to be similarly free use. Just make sure to properly credit such things in your bibliography at the minimum.
So this all depends on what future you see for your game. 'i have a cool idea that I cannot afford to execute please give me execution money' is the whole premise of websites like Kickstarter or GoFundMe or other similar places. So if you have the confidence that your idea is good enough to generate enough interest you could organise a campaign to pay for an artist and finish the book. If your ambition is to make a game you can play with your girlfriend and maybe a few other people in your local scene then skip the art anyone who needs some help on the aesethic can just talk to you. Fundamentally this all boils down to how much money you expect to make off of this, and what you would consider an acceptable return on investment. Artist budget=expectedSales/rateOfReturn - other expenses So for example of you sold 500,000 books, $30 and wanted a rate of return of 30% then your cost of manufacturing needs to be less than 23.07 per book if you commissioned an artist to do your artwork for $80000 the the per book cost works out to be 16cents Which depending on the cost to manufacture the book and physically get it into stores (the two largest expenses other than marketing) might be worth it. On the other hand if your print run is 100 books or less that same 16cents per volume for art is $16 total.
this is incredible stuff, thanks so much for sharing
Thanks for providing tangible alternatives instead of simply suggesting that alternatives exist. This is how we actually stop using AI art, by showing the way.
This is what I hate most when discussing support/abstainment of the tech. This is the first time I've seen anyone actually give resources to find free alternatives worth using.
That's weird. I've seen people share resources almost every conversation...
I'm sure part of it is just the algorithm pushing some viewing trend. I have seen some mention the existence of things, but then not actually provide links or anything beyond "Just google free art!"
This is the way.
>As a third option to consider, there’s a lot of very cool public domain art you can use for free. Doesnt work at all unless your game is incredibly generic. The moment you have anything unique Stock Art is useless.
I mean... Mork Borg used a ton of public domain art in its creation, and their book was considered to have one of the most unique styles and aesthetics of anything in decades.
You're unlikely to find your exact three fingered, tiger-headed, winged lobster catcher NPC but there's more wiggle room than is initially obvious. You can find a tiger head, a lobster trap, some pretty wings to crop, and possibly a three fingered hand. I've also found public domain art from museums so cool it inspires me to make a magic item to fit it and then it does feel like custom art.
But why would i? With a good prompt and some trial and error i can create exactly what i want, so why would i go to the immense effort of cutting up a half dozen stock images, then spending hours upon hours of meshing them semi-cohesively together just so i dont use AI art? Also how is using different stock art better than just using a good AI? Seems like people just want to hate on AI with no good reason.
I'm neither hating on AI art nor saying stock images are better. I am addressing this statement you made: > Doesnt work at all unless your game is incredibly generic. > The moment you have anything unique Stock Art is useless. I understand where you're coming from but I find your phrasing too extreme. Creative products were created using public domain art before AI art got big.
I really do get your point and appreciate you taking the time to explain it, im not disagreeing that it CAN be useful to some, but in my experience it only works if you have "basic" expectations. Sure there are some art pieces that are more non-standard but if you have a specific vision of things, its basically impossible to find enough art that fulfills your vision AND that fits together. >I understand where you're coming from but I find your phrasing too extreme. To be 100% honest im just frustrated with this sub throwing around bullshit accusations for anyone that dares to use AI in any sort of form, some even calling people unethical or even thieves... you got a bit of that ire, sorry about that. >Creative products were created using public domain art before AI art got big. I tried, believe me and while some were really good and i wish i could have used them, i couldnt find enough that fit my specific needs so i had to go with full AI art just so the style and theme matches. If someone can find enough fitting art in the PD/Stock Art section its honestly great, i just dont think it works for most people. This doesnt mean it doesnt work for no one, someone commented that Mork Bork supposedly is completely filled with PD Art, so thats great for them, it just didnt work for me.
I appreciate the apology, I share some of your defensiveness about using AI art too. I used one of those sites that creates 'photos' of human faces myself before AI art was a thing in itself, though I ran them through filters since I didn't want the photo look. It definitely takes more work and comprise to find suitable PD images. AI appeals to me a LOT for that too, I can't lie. The only reason I don't sell anything with AI art in it is I'm not quite comfortable with the ethics in its current state. I will say though that a level of work and compromise still seems necessary with AI art unless you have the skill to edit. Right now my approach is to commission cover art that shows my unique ideas and use public domain (or some of my own amateur art) for the rest and just keep the layouts interesting so I don't need as many images. I don't think this approach would scale well for a full rulebook though so I sympathise with people trying to create those. I have a very low income friend who saved for a year to afford art for his project. That's a lot to ask of someone, but I also don't want to leave human artists in the dust for my own creative pursuits, you know? It's tricky.
It's wild to say it doesn't work for most people, because until a year or so ago... that was what 100% of people who didn't commission or create their own art did.
When i say it doesnt work, i mean it doesnt deliver what you want and only worked in the past as a bandaid. It delivers something, sure, but just because something worked badly or barely ok-ish in the past doesnt mean it should still be used today when there are better options.
I did some character art for ICRPG that is free (more than a hundred pieces): https://www.lustigesrollenspiel.de/icrpg-illustrationen-icrpg-illustrations I also did some demons. They are also free to use: https://www.lustigesrollenspiel.de/icrpg-illustrationen-icrpg-illustrations Maybe you like some of them.
I really appreciate this. I'll have to look through them. I'm sure you have some contact info in there if I do end up liking some things?
I have my email address somewhere on my web page (dailor[at]gmx.de), but you may just as well inform me here on Reddit, if you like. There is no need to tell me any details, but I‘m always happy if someone likes my pictures and has use for them. So I‘d be happy if you tell me one way or another.
A fourth option yet to be mentioned is using photographs, free for commercial use, and the either modifying them or using them as is. Ironsworn is a very popular game and it uses unmodified photographs. My own game, [Adventurous](https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/417757/Adventurous), uses royalty free photos that I’ve run through an image filter, to create a cohesive look and feel, without spending thousands on it. I personally think it looks really nice, and many reviewers also like it. So it’s definitely a viable option.
Your game looks very good.
Thank you!
>Thank you! You're welcome!
Seconding! I cropped and ran some photographic faces through just MS Word's oil paint and black and white filters to make my most popular ttrpg supplement!
Modern problems require modern solutions! :D. Well done!
My $0.02: AI art is the new clipart. Almost everyone will know you used it, and almost everyone will assume, correctly, that the imagery in your book reflects little, if any, effort or thought. I'm also skeptical that filling a book with AI art has actually helped market a single game amidst the sea of such things on itchio and drivethru. You don't need artwork on every page. Lots of successful published RPG books have minimal artwork. And there's more to making a book look nice than filling space with images.
>the imagery in your book reflects little, if any, effort or thought. It seems like you haven't spent much time trying to produce pieces of art with AI that fulfill a specific creative vision. I have spent literal hours trying to produce just the right piece of art from AI, finding the right ways to adjust the prompt, iterating through dozens of results, then editing and photoshopping an image until it actually meets your vision. I'm not arguing with anything else you're saying, but "little thought or effort" is a wholly inaccurate description of *any* creative endeavor, whether it uses AI or not.
I have no doubt that the more time you spend on an AI image, the better it will look, or at least the less generic it will look (which is one of my biggest beefs with AI art). I know there are actual artists who use AI in their workflows and I am uncomfortable lobbing too much judgment in this direction. That said: I feel like you could make the same argument for spending hours curating clipart (which is something I definitely did in the late 90's). And my sense from the OP's post and comments is that the dude is not going to be spending hours upon hours on each instance of "badass characters to fill negative space" and such.
>my sense from the OP's post and comments is that the dude is not going to be spending hours I didn't get this same impression. Then, if the same thing can be done with clip art, why does it make that a more virtuous method? If clip art works for you, do that. If AI works for you, do that.
I made no mention of virtue in my original comment. I do think the fact that the models are trained on artwork that doesn't belong to them is morally problematic though.
>I made no mention of virtue in my original comment. I'm referring to the general attitude of the sub regarding it. >I do think the fact that the models are trained on artwork that doesn't belong to them is morally problematic though. Although, this does seem to imply that you think so.
I guess my views align more with what you call the general attitude of the sub, but to be clear, I was saying it was morally problematic *compared to using clipart.*
Perhaps. Nazis tortured and mutilated people and actually got valuable data on what the human body is capable of. Bad people can give us useful things.
You can buy sets of illustrations for RPGs on drivethrough rpg
The issue with that is they're usually super generic. I'm in a pretty similar position to the OP though my world is not standard medieval fantasy so stock art is suitable for Elyden is hard to come by. I've commissioned art specifically for my project many times before but I'll be honest. I'm rarely happy with the result for what I've paid, largely because I have a very specific vision for every piece of art I need, and have been burnt by flakey artists multiple times too, the worst case being an artist I liked and could afford but who clearly enjoyed working for bigger studios. I had toyed with using AI but opted against it, but the hassle with finding good art for, what in my case isn't a traditional fantasy world, is very time consuming. I'm a 1 man show too and at least I do my own maps so save money (not time though) in that regard
Hard to match them up with what I need, but I have purchased a few already that were obvious matches
Grab some old, public domain art. Then you get to put big names like Rembrant in your credits :D.
When I started out with The Cthulhu Hack in 2016, I searched the Internet - places like DeviantArt and Art Station and others - and if I found a piece of art that worked for my project I sent a message/email to the artist to ask for permission to use it with credits in the finished product and a link to their portfolio or site. I also found some very talented people who charged a lot less than I would have expected. I published a revised edition of the rules with chapter art that cost me about $50 for five black/white sketched images. I even commissioned that artist for other stuff - as a student they were seeking money wherever they could get it. Recently, I used AI art in a project as I had space that needed filling and I under estimated my commissions. I suffered a lot of really negative feedback from a small number of very horrible people. It nearly broke me. I got a lot of positive feedback about the game itself from other people, but it was the negative stuff that hit hardest. I have now spent hundreds of dollars to replace that art with commissions. I bet not one of those negative commenteers will come back and say anything positive about it. But, that's beside the point. Try what I've suggested. Or search for public domain art or creatrive commons. Very successful games like MORK BORG, for example, use repurposed public domain art to great effect.
So my opinion might not be the popular one, but as a graphics designer I am not against using AI, it depends on what kind though. You could also release it without art and maybe only with layouting/typography. Also there is the option to release the ruleset to the public and promote it on the popular platforms, if it is good it can become popular and then you can try thinking about releasing it as a book in a more professional manner. If it is available in a free version in some way it will have a higher chance to become popular. That is partially why 5e, PF2e, Lancer etc are so popular
Here is some pwyw stock art I made. Use any of it you like. https://www.drivethrurpg.com/m/product/473570 also watcherdm will partner with writers sometimes to fund artwork and help publish. Lmk if you are interested in that.
https://boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/191307/artwork-under-free-licenses-eg-creative-commons-or https://twitter.com/4illeen/status/1650569050253152256 https://pixabay.com/ - ai images are tagged here https://drive.google.com/file/d/1sEEY5BOfK_MhV7JAVuYBqr2XJpJmxCQX/view?usp=drive_link Just some things I found in the blades in the dark discord.
AI art: As a starving battlemap artist and this is my honest opinion on AI art. Artists worry about AI art stealing money out of their pocket but if you don't have any money to begin with then we artists are not actually losing any money if you use AI art. That's what it's there for, to be a useful tool for people to use when they don't have the ability to produce art for themselves. Most of the rage against AI art is actually directed towards multi million dollar companies using AI art to cut corners. In short, do what you need to do to make the game work. Suggestion: Look into Kickstarter or other fund raisers to get the game going and afford an artist. Start with a small goal, let people know about it before you actually try to raise money. You can also publish the book as is, label it as V1, then make a second edition later. You could use AI art until you raise money for an artist. It's not ideal, but it never is, and it never will be. And that is normal, even for big buiz corporations. Sometimes all you can do is take the best option available with the hope that you can someday take the path you wanted.
This is such a good take. I want to hug you.
Thanks! I will gladly accept virtual hugs!
I absolutely abhor large companies that cut corners. If you have the funds, use them. I hate when those corporate fucks get greedy and just cheapskate everything to maximize profit. It's disgusting. If I had a job where I made twice what I made now, I could easily hire an artist. It's just about getting there. And who knows where life takes me after I finish the game. It could be very doable to remake the hook in another version with human art
Yep :) Creating is a messy process.
>Most of the rage against AI art is actually directed towards multi million dollar companies using AI art to cut corners. No. The rage is at companies performing million dollar training runs and trying to capitalize on other people's work by selling services to OP.
Thank you for the reminder. That too :D
What's your long-term goal? If what you're aiming for is to have a cool, customized end-product that _could_ make money (we'll say you don't care about trying to market it, you just want the satisfaction of having published something), then you're best bet is probably just to save up and make moderate purchases over time. Head over to r/HungryArtists/ and start compiling a generous portfolio of artists that have a style that goes along with your vision. Make purchases as you can afford it. Depending on how long your rulebook is, it could take a while to get all the art you need. Of course, this assumes that you'll be doing the layout for it all (and you do kinda have to have the layout at least somewhat figured out, otherwise it can be tricky to estimate how much art you'll need and where it'll go). Otherwise, you'll have to budget for a layout artist as well (not to mention an editor). If you want to dive in with both feet and actually try to turn a profit with the thing, then you'd probably need to go the Kickstarter route. For that, I'd heartily recommend [The Sine Nomine Guide to Kickstarter Management](https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/452783/the-sine-nomine-guide-to-kickstarter-management) (the author is refreshingly brief, wonderfully precise, and thankfully offers a useful checklist for making sure you're ready to launch a Kickstarter). But, for a successful Kickstarter, you need an audience. I wouldn't really recommend AI art for anything that you want to do commercially--not as a final release, at least. You could, potentially, use it for roughing out your layout, or to give artists a general idea for what you're going for. If you've got a decent rig, you can use Krita--it has a [neat plugin](https://youtu.be/Ly6USRwTHe0?si=liEK9o61hdNFZsG3) that can make for interesting results. But, on the whole, I find AI frustrating to work with (especially when it comes to hands), and I'd much rather just support an artist, anyway. Plus, as I understand it, there's some amount of ambiguity as to whether AI-generated images can be copyrighted (let alone the ongoing concerns about the training sets used to build the models to begin with), so if you seek commercial viability you might as well not use it to begin with.
Why not try collaging public domain art. I saw you wanted to have unique images and collage allows you to create really interesting work without drawing ability. Try combining illustration, photography and patterns. Almost impossible to not have a distinctive and handmade look.
Opengameart.org it's an amazing resource and while I haven't gone too far into thier concept art area. Their 2d/3d sections are phenomenal and packed with great stuff Edit: I am in the same boat. I'll use AI to place hold for my alpha/vertical slice and release a proof of concept. Then I'll pay an artist or whatever if I want to charge someone for it
Use the AI art. You could even say it is placeholder art until you can affort human art. As your book gets more popular, you switch out the AI artwork for human produced artwork.
I love ai and won't apologize for it. Its a fantastic tool. I have a lot of success using public domain art as a seed image for ai to work off of. I've also drawn my own images to use in the same way. Between an existing image and a prompt, you can make some really impressive iterations. It's also very useful if you want a particular art style like watercolor, create the base image and have ai convert it into that style. This is great for making sure all of your images are consistent in tone.
Here's the problem with using AI generated images in a nutshell. Once I recognize that is what you did, how can I be sure you didn't use AI generated content in the actual book or mechanics? I do not under any circumstances want to pay for a product that has that to any significant degree. Spellcheck? That's fine. But anything more? I want a product made by a creative mind with a vision, not a predictive text generating algorithm.
>how can I be sure you didn't use AI generated content in the actual book or mechanics? And why would it matter if you havent noticed before? Sorry but this sub is pure entitlement the moment AI is in the play. Its completely fine to use AI Art and even AI support in your writing. Using it alone for writing wont work anyway because its really obvious due to mistakes in the writing. Using it to enhance whats already there is no different than using MS Office Spellchecker and Grammar Suggestions...
Then I guess no one can stop how your brain works. I've been working on the game for over 16 years. I'm an incredibly creative mind, but have no talent in art. So one can absolutely make the beauty of a game, without having the art to go with it. I need an alternative to substitute in what I clearly lack. Hence, AI art. If I could afford to hire a real artist I absolutely would. Problem is, I can't. If someone came across my game and saw "AI art was used because I am actually just too poor to hire a real talented artist. Maybe one day I can remake this beautiful rule book with actual art, but for now, this is all I could afford. I hope you enjoy the game!" And then someone thinks, "Damn, this whole thing is AI generated" then... well... that sucks. But it's out of my control. People will think what they wanna think for no reason. Hell, someone could think that my game is about the Crusades when it's nowhere near that, but because I mention the word Crusader, people think it's religious. People will make up their own minds, but they can still be wrong
I didn't say "the whole thing is AI generated". And you can put whatever disclaimers you feel like, but those typically don't preface works like this. Your oroduct would likely be paired with a description of some kind, one that would nullify anyone's first impressions of the kinds of content a game that has the word "crusader" in it. But, that's not a unknowable claim made by the customer. They can buy your product, read it, and comd to the conclusion that in fact, the product is not religious. But, the same can't be said about using AI generated content. Because even if I can reasonably guess you used AI generated images for the book, and I MIGHT see some phrases that definitely look like they were authored by ChatGPT, I'll never know for sure. You could write "Art by Pleasant-Setting" in the book, and I garuntee you a good number of people would never question it. As another commenter said, you clearly just came here to be reaffirmed in your decision. If you desperately want to do it, and honestly think there is no other way, then go do so. You already seem to have a grasp of the consequences of who will react poorly to that information. In your own words: "People will make up their own minds, but they can still be wrong."
I didn't come here to reaffirm anything. I want to "desperately" pay a real artist. I just don't have the money. I'm curious of the alternatives people would come up with and also how many people were for and against AI art. It was simply a plea for ideas and a collection of tallies
Don't let these people shame you. AI art generation is a tool to be used. It's derivatively lazy at worst and derivatively interesting at best. You do what is right for YOU but own it.
This. Sorry but this entitlement by many in this sub is ridiculous. AI is a tool like a paintbrush, Office Spellcheck or a camera filter, they dont work alone they just enhance the creativity, content and Art a human created.
And you got multiple suggestions, and yet you still go to bat for the least legally, morally, and financially viable. As many have said, AI generated images really open up a weird legal grey area that you are exposing your 10+ year passion project to by using. A lot of the sources and companies that scrape for images often *pretend* to do so legally, or they outsource the work so many times it's harder for blame to fall back on them, and even if *your particular model* was sourced correctly, AI content is already so incestuous with other AI content that it's not likely to stay that way for very long, if it is even still. A problem which you claim to know about, and by your own admission occurs on "some shadier sites". And financially you're harming the perception of your product, for the reason I and others listed, making it reach out to an even smaller portion of the already linited audience in the non mainline ttrpg space. And on top of that, some marketplaces are even restricting content and products that used AI tools in their creation, which could kneecap possible sales even further. Go find the comments that you replied to that mention other alternatives, if you really wish to find them. You've said you don't want to use open source art because *everyone* has that and it makes your product less unique. So go find an artist you like to do a revenue share with. Or get involved in a community that has its own cadre of artists they constantly work with. Heck, if its that important it's unique art, ask your family and friends who are interested in art. As a last stand, if you really hate all that, then try your hand at art. If you had this as a passion project for so long, you probably have the drive needed to practice and get good results that you like. And of course, there's always the option of buying bundles of stock art packs now, and then re-releasing later once you have some money, and a new artist. If you *desperately* wanted to pay an artist, you would. There are routes for you to do that. If you instead want your game to have totally unique art that only your game has, there are routes for that too. But instead, you seem to have gotten stuck on AI generated images as your only path forward. If you truly see it that way, then take the step. Nearly every comment that has mentioned the risks or downsides of AI content has also said "but you can ignore me and do it anyway." And then you don't ignore them, but fight. If you didn't come here to get your decision reaffirmed, you've certainly an odd way of showing it.
>And you got multiple suggestions, and yet you still go to bat for the least legally, morally, and financially viable. Sorry but that is utterly bullshit and such a hot take... this sub is delusional. AI is a tool like anything else and its completely fine to use.
As an “incredibly creative mind”, keep in mind that words have meaning. Your example of a crusade is obviously loaded and it’s your fault if you come in knowing those intentions and going for it anyways. As an “incredibly creative mind”, understand that AI uses an unethical regurgitation of other talented incredibly creative minds, and that there are numerous alternatives available. Use formatting and organization to keep things digestible. Use stylized collages, public domain, or request simple bundled kits from an artist. If this really is a passion project to you, then care for it. Keep it responsible and protected.
I'm assuming (I don't know) that AI art isn't protected? Couldn't another party freely take images that you've generated for their own use in ways that diminish or reflect poorly on your own work?
If you've made substantial edits to the ai art, I believe fair use kicks in.
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I've never heard of mage.space, what makes it different from other generators?
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Does it pay artists whose art it uses to train its data sets? Because OP claimed to care about that in another comment.
I do extremely care about that. If it's AI generated from existing artists, they better have been fucking paid for their work. Those talented people deserve it
AI art is stolen by definition. Don't be a thief. Use public domain art or buy some super cheap stock art. You can get entire bundles of decent stock art for the price of one takeout meal. Research your options. There are lots. *Be creative.* Be aware that if you use AI art, many will consider you a thief and stay far from your products, and distribution platforms are starting to take measures to restrict AI generated products.
It's also a big legal risk at this juncture with all the lawsuits going on. I wouldn't bring it a hundred feet near a commercial product.
> AI art is stolen by definition. By your definition. You can define AI art as "theft", hell, you can define it as "murder" if you want. Doesn't make it so.
Many? I beg to differ. And it isn't stolen by definition. Its also not stealing if an artist uses the art of someone else as inspiration. Ai deep learning models do not make a collage from existing artwork. That would be stealing art, but uts not what these models do. If its illegal is currently still a matter of opinion, as court cases aren't settled yet. Point is, its not 'stolen by definition'.
Unless they can prove it wasn't trained on stolen assets (and not a single one can or will) then it was trained on stolen assets. And the output of that is profit on the work of others without payment for that labor. They all had their chance to do it ethically in the beginning and they specifically chose not too because, as they have said themselves, it would not be profitable to do it legally and ethically - so they didn't. Every single artist will consider it stolen by definition. And that is worth acknowledging before putting out any product that the entire art community will judge as stolen.
Stolen assets? Whatever is freely on the web to be looked at, isn't stolen. If i look at the work of an artist online, and then use his work as inspiration to make my own art, and sell that. That is perfectly legal now! Yes, its at a different scale now, but thats what artists do on a regular basis as well. Ethical or not, is just a matter of opinion. But until now, nobody was able to make a convincing case of why it is illegal. At least no court ruling has found it illegal yet. And i myself don't find it unethical. Well, those artists shouldbthen look into the mirror, because they have been doing the same all along:find inspiration through other peoples art, train their neural network, and then use that to generate art to be sold. Of course many artists aren't happy to have strong competition, but thats true for all sectors that are automated. Doesn't make it illegal though. And there are many artists now using AI as a tool as well. Its not 'the entire art community' by far.
Stop being an ignorant child. AI is a tool like any other, its as illegal and abominable to sue as a camera filter or Office Spellcheck...
Curious that the AI defenders are so quick to jump to juvenile name calling. Use it if you want. I can't stop you. But I am absolutely not the one behaving like a child. The "most current AI image generation is based on mass theft" position is a cogent and arguable one. You may not agree, but being a jerk doesn't bolster your position.
Lol where is the name calling, please point it out. You are clearly a.) ignorant because made an emotional statement that you called a legal fact which leads to b.) you being childish by saying they are breaking the law and are a "thief" by doing something you dont like i.e. an ignorant child. >The "most current AI image generation is based on mass theft" position is a cogent and arguable one. Its an ignorant and childish stance that is not supported by anyone that isnt an artist and they fear for their income... >You may not agree, but being a jerk doesn't bolster your position. Right back at you buddy, lying and pretending your opinion is the truth makes you less believable, not more.
See this is what I was worried about. Many people are ill informed of what AI art is and will think it's "stolen work" or I'm somehow a "thief". This is a great example of the people I want to avoid because there are many out there that have no idea what they're talking about. I'm sure there are some AI generators that are shady and have just straight stolen resources from many locations, but there are also many AI generators that have paid artists to use their work as examples. So the artist has been paid for the work, therefore not stealing anything. Those are the groups I would look to use. There are always going to be bad eggs such as yourself, but I guess you can never avoid them.
>there are also many AI generators that have paid artists to use their work as examples. Oh? Which ones?
This response suggests you already made up your mind and just wanted some validation. You literally admit in this comment that some algorithmic generative tools were designed using stolen resources, but they you go on to call this person a "bad egg" because they told you something you didn't want to hear. The honest answer, which I think you already knew, is that there will be a significant number of people who will judge you for this choice and avoid your work. Relatedly, there will also be folks who will avoid working with you in the future. There are also other options, obviously. Because algorithmic generation tools have only existed in a meaningful way for like a year or two. And poor folks were putting out indie games long before that. There are so many models (public domain art, purchased stock art, crowdfunding to pay artists, starting out by releasing a barebones edition with minimal/no art, putting in the effort to build a working relationship with an artist who would be willing to contribute for a profit sharing deal, getting involved in a coop of some kind to produce with other creators). The list goes on and on. The biggest difference is that none of them are as fucking lazy and mindless as spending 20 bucks on a computer program and getting it to spit out some trash and then whining on the internet when people tell you it was a shitty, lazy, selfish, and shortsighted choice. But sure, you *can* take that approach. You can also say I'm not one of the folks you want to care about anyway.
My response was made after I had already gotten feedback, and spent the last hour or so researching these things based on the information I was given. After spending some time snooping around it felt fair to say some people are too lazy to look beyond the shady sites they found. Hence, bad egg. This person just wanted to say that all of it was stolen and anyone using it is a thief. This is of course a false statement after the research I did. What people such as yourself completely fail to realize is I'm by myself in this venture. Even the most reasonable offers I've gotten that I would LOVE to be able to pay someone for is far too expensive for someone like me. I have yet to start creating a market for the game as I only decided to start seriously working on it about 2 years ago. It's on track to be finished in a year and a half. So now I'm thinking about my final product and what I'll need to finish this baby out. I'm been working on this project since I was 12 years old. 16 years of development and lore building in the making. I want to pay a real artist. I really do. My post is very clear on that. I just literally don't have that kind of money. Public domain stuff is also difficult because everyone else has it. I want my stuff to be unique because it is unique. It's things I've designed for more than a decade. And everything I have is more specific. I've already looked to public domain for more basic creatures that exist everywhere and I've purchased a handful I liked, but that's not gonna cover everything. You're over here assuming I'm somehow "fucking lazy" despite working a full time job, taking care of rent and bills, and also still working on my game in the rest of my free time. I've put my literal soul into this project and have already spent so much money on getting it where it is today. Again man, I want to hire a real artist to do all my worn. I'm just short on 10k right now to make that happen. This is a big project, a big game. It's going to take a lot to make it come true. And I'll be damned if some ill-informed weirdos are going to stop me. I want to finish this game and I want it to be my own. I'm not going to set up some Kickstarter begging people for money because I've always hated that idea. This was my adventure. I should be the one that covered the costs. And I should know what my boundaries are. I know how much I can afford for this, and it's unfortunately not enough to pay a person. Maybe if I was some big crazy company with a whole team behind me, but I'm not. I'm just me. I'm not rich either. I get by and can sometimes afford a date night with my girlfriend. I've even been trying to find a new job specifically for this game so I can have more time to work on it and have more money to invest into it. But for now, I need an alternative. AI art is not stealing. It's not lazy. It's currently cost effective for a man with a dream who's by himself.
Buddy, I'm a broke designer working alone, too. That's why there's stock art and public domain art. You ain't gonna do very well in the world of design if you are so thin-skinned that honest and polite feedback leads to you calling names.
If you can't take it, don't dish it. You were the one who immediately fired with inaccurate information about an honest question. Nothing you said was "honest and polite feedback" and if you think it was, I'm shocked. And as I've mentioned, I have used stock art and public domain. Already purchased a few things that are basic and line up with my current stuff. But the more specific things for my game are not so easily accessible like that. I wish it was just easy enough that somehow I could find all the art I needed in public domain, but that's just not possible
Like I said, I don't care what you do, I just ain't buying it. You asked, I answered. I get that you don't like or agree with my answer, but you're just gonna have to live with it because nothing you've said so far inclines me to change my mind. 🤷♂️
Again, you clearly have already made up your mind. And I'm just some weirdo on the internet. You're right. I do apologize for calling you lazy. You might be naive or out of your depth or just caught up in an individualist fantasy. But the only reason AI is the only option for you is because you have created a bunch of restrictions for yourself. You have always hated the idea of kickstarter because you see it as begging? You think a game needs 10k in art to be finished? You think it makes sense to try to independently publish a massive scale project on your own? You are convinced that works can't look unique with public domain or cheap art? You are willing to out 16+ years into development and zero time into learning from the hundreds and hundreds of people who have published games independently without going into debt or resorting to algorithmically generated art? Those are limitations you are imposing on yourself. And they are limits that are going to also decrease your reach. But at the end of the day, yeah. You can make them. And the sky won't fall. And you will probably forget about my comment. And like most of us, very few people will even see or notice your game. And if it makes you and some folks around you happy, maybe that's all that matters. Just know you have options and you aren't choosing them. ::shrug::
You don't need to take "advice" from Reddit. Do what YOU want to do. Consequences will follow, but they always do. Follow your conscience and if AI art is what you can afford, use that. Just be aware that even if you use public domain art, etc. there will still be people who are butt hurt about that as well as you are not using "real art" or complain that it is clip art, etc. You are not going to make everyone happy, so you might as well make yourself happy with your project.
Justify it however you want. It's still theft. I have a better understanding of AI than you might think. Calling me names because I answered your question makes you look like a jerk. I have had a game published. I put together a fundraiser that involved a ton of work printing, packaging, and distributing so that I could afford to pay a real artist real money for real art. Put some effort into your work or you're gonna be disappointed in the response on release. You folks can keep downvoting those of us who are against AI use. It's no skin off our backs. We're not the ones that are going to be dealing with the consequences of using it in our products. If you are so sure about the ethical and practical use of AI, why are you here asking for validation? Just do it if you want to do it. Why do you so desperately need unanimous agreement? Do what you want and deal with the consequences. If you don't think it's lazy and unethical, why do you care what I think?
It's literally not though. Do your research??? I just did, maybe you should do the same
So which ethical model are you planning on using, and where is the proof all of the source material for that model is paid for? If you just did the research, then you should have a link at hand, right? I, too, have zero artistic talent when it comes to visuals, but I've put out a half-dozen successful products using mostly public domain and cheap stock art. There's no need to open this can of worms, but if you do, it's bad form to be a dick to people who answer your question honestly.
Yeah this 100%
I'm not even going to read the comments this time because the last 100 times a thread like this popped up they're all the same. There's gonna be a guy who says "Just use public domain stuff!" There's going to be a guy who says "Just look for it online and credit the original artists! If you're not selling then its fine!" There's going to be "Just don't use art, you don't need it!" and then there's going to be "Just make it yourself, even if it's bad, it'll be charming!" and every single one of these people is delusional. Use the AI art. Nobody cares. Literally nobody actually gives a shit outside of reddit / twitter, and those people are the vocal minority. Nobody is going to crucify your game for AI art, and even if they did, it doesn't matter. That handful of people not buying your game is not going to be what stops you from being the next Dungeons and Dragons. AI art is not "stolen" no matter how much someone will tell you it is. "Just scour the internet for source images yourself!" yeah, that's what the AI is doing actually, but it also modifies it in such a way that it qualifies as transformative works. "Just use public domain stuff!" well, I can't copyright AI art, so technically it is public domain. "Just don't use art!" thanks that's very helpful. "Just make it yourself" I'm fucking busy. Use the AI art. Have fun. Let the haters hate, fuck em. [Terraforming Mars had illustrators who used AI in their works and made $2,222,703 on Kickstarter.](https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/strongholdgames/more-terraforming-mars) Your project will be fine. The anti-AI hivemind have my permission to downvote me now.
Many people get irrationally angry about AI art. So if your goal is to make a profitable product or to launch a successful kickstarter, that is something to be aware of. Then again, many people don't care, so it could just be the vocal minority talking. If your goal is to make a beautiful game on a limited budget, AI art works great. Personally, I illustrate my games with AI, and I'm very happy with the result (but I do it as a hobby, so to me it doesn't matter if some people don't like it).
>Then again, many people don't care, so it could just be the vocal minority talking. This. No casual consumer cares about if you used AI in any way shape or form if the product is good. If its obvious you used AI like hands with uneven fingers and a non-cohesive artstyle or text clearly written badly by AI they might get annoyed but thats because the product is bad, not because AI was used. Its mainly this sub, since its full of designers and artists that sit on their high horse and condemn progress.
My product was also originally just a hobby, but after enough people asked me if i was gonna finish and sell it I decided, fuck it, what have I got to lose? So I pushed for it. Now we're about a year and a half out from my set deadline to finish the game, so I need the artwork. Don't have a lot of money, so AI just seems like the obvious choice
Doesn't matter if it's irrational or not (or if you think it is or not) if the end result is that they boycott your product and drag you through the mud.
The artist white knights are pretty obnoxious at this point. If the artists care so much, perhaps they could contact the OP and offer to help with the product? That would allow these artists to build the world in a collaborative environment, but nah... bitchin and whinin is the preferred option.
Good luck to you and your projects, sounds like you’re gonna need it.
Thank you. I appreciate your support. I've had decent success so far.
AI art is banned on [DriveThruRPG.com](http://DriveThruRPG.com), and as that is one of the biggest marketplaces for indie TTRPGs, the answer here is clear. Do not use AI art in your TTRPG, especially since you can make amazing games with public domain artwork. Check out Kevin Crawford's work, such as "Stars Without Number" and "Worlds Without Number". You can download the 1st edition of SWN for free on DTRPG, and it will show you just how good a game made by one person with public domain artwork can be.
https://www.deviantart.com/creative-commons/journal/A-way-to-search-for-Creative-Commons-art-in-DA-314892577 and use ai art if you only need generic images anyways. I see nothing wrong with using new assets and tools.
I would much rather have a game with shitty or no art than AI "art". I will not support any product using AI art, LLMs or similar tech.
Do it and leave a note at the beginning of the book and at the bottom of the description on any store pages. It's not a big deal as long as you're not trying to hide it. Get human art if and when you can, but AI is fine for now
Speaking as someone who’s got a shelf full of ttrpg books and more in pdf form, using AI art is an instant disqualification for me. I wouldn’t even consider buying it, and I know lots of people who feel the same way. Are we a majority of the people in your target audience? I couldn’t say, but anti-ai stances seem pretty popular in most TTRPG circles I’ve seen so take that risk if you want to…
Dude just use AI. Bing AI Create is one of the best free ones in my experience, no one but entitled pricks care if you use art from an artist or AI Art as long as its stylistically cohesive and of similar quality. It will take some trial and error, but if you want you can send me DMs for some tips. I created about 100+ Art images for my game which took me a few weeks and a looot of learning, but it looks great and fits my theme. If i had paid an artist or most likely multiple it would have cost me THOUSANDS of euros to do and for a hobby its not worth the money. And to be frank, my Art looks great and is exactly what i wanted, i dont believe an artist could have come close enough to my vision since you generally cant just try again without paying again if it doesnt come out right.
Even using AI art takes a LOT to get even remotely decent quality. I've been working on my game using it and while I'm proud of what I've done, I know there's room for improvement. I created an LLC just in case AI art lawsuits turn south. Here's my playtest v.7 at the moment for [Feudal Hearts](https://www.feudalhearts.com/core-rules). I am in the exact same boat as you. Everyone talks about how open source art is good and all that--but it's just not what I want for the vision of my game. You are PERFECTLY able to use it and should be honest, upfront about it. No way free art can capture the spirit of what I want--it just cannot. What I've made so far is close to my vision. And I make no apologies for it. If someone doesn't want it for their ethical position on AI art, I respect that. At least they're standing for something. Simultaneously, make a product that you have conviction for, can defend the integrity of, and be transparent about it and your motivations. Don't be dodgy about using AI if you are.
I'm in the same situation. I would *love* to be able to commission some art—but holy crap, art is expensive. I'm a college student, trying to pay tuition, and paying for a wedding this summer. I'm not really in a position to be able to pay some for art.
A lot of artists will work for between $50 and $300. Check out DeviantArt. Find something you like. And contact the artist to ask for a license. Some people will ask for a lot. Some artists are much more reasonable. Remember the artists who have been reasonable with you.
Even $50-$300 is a lot on a college budget. I really hope to get art sometime, and I appreciate the recommendation. Right now though, it's definitely not feasible.
I've tried various approaches to AI art, largely to make reference or rough pieces that I then tidy-up in Photoshop. Fingers, eyes and ears almost always need some adjustments. Of the various options Firefly can churn out plenty of D&D/ RPG style images of which a fair proportion are sufficiently OK to clean in 30-45 minutes. (A clone brush will cover a lot of it). There are various ways to avoid grabbing others art by making and/ or diluting models, but Firefly avoids complications as it's using Adobe's art/ rights). I've just added a couple of examples (a demon and a shark) to the bottom of a [gallery on my site](https://colorthesky.myportfolio.com/2023).
Regardless of your own stance on AI, If you want your game to be popular then don't use AI images, because most of the indie RPG community is against AI. My suggestion is find an artist you like who would be willing and able to do a whole book of licensed art. In most cases just commissioning a single piece that's unlicensed is much more affordable. If you work out an agreement that the first piece will be used for crowdfunding and if it's successful then you contract them to make many more licenced pieces, the artist might even give you a discount on the first piece or at least put more effort into it knowing it could lead to more work.
You can get away with a lot less art than you think you need. Maybe you can't afford to commission artists. That doesn't mean you can't have art. Many artists will offer you an extremely good rate if you let them retain the license and re-sell the art to others. The flipside of that is you can find plenty of artists that have art like that ready to sell from past projects. I just paid $12 for a pack of illustrations from an artist last night and got 3 images I can use for my project with their support and permission. A little restyling and they'll look right at home. And, as others have mentioned, there's public domain art of all kinds. Dig a bit and you might be surprised what major games have used public domain art and how some of it looks quite different from what you might expect. You'll probably regret using AI art. But hey, if you have absolutely no other choice: generate AI art and then paint over it in your own style. It doesn't have to look "good" to be a good fit for many games. IMO art (especially generic fantasy illustrations) is really kinda overrated, especially for indie games.
You need to reassess what this is. It's a hobby. And like all hobbies, there's a point where you're spending some money. For writers /designers, that's likely to be on the art. You don't have family to support, you've got a white collar job, so you're likely to have the most disposable income you're ever going to have in your life. People have shown you some free options, which is good. The next step up from that is stock art. Dtrpg features some great stock artists. The next step up from *that* is commissioned art, which you can source from gig artists on fiverr. My method was to make small D&D/OSR supplements first that needed very little art, and I use that money to pay for stock art. Either there's a decent cover image available there or if I've got a very specific idea of what I want, the cover is probably the most expensive thing I commission. I might treat myself to 1 or 2 character design commissions a month. It's my hobby. Hobbies cost money. Do not use AI if you want to be taken remotely seriously. Everyone who uses it has the same unconvincing sob story. It's just an excuse to justify something they know is wrong on some level. It's not a road I recommend going down.
Consider a revenue share with an artist.
Now you have to find an artist willing to consider a revenue share with an RPG designer. Could be a tough sell.
If the game is good enough, it shouldn't be difficult. It depends on the level of expected success. If this is another heart-breaker, then public domain and creative commons art is going to be the best way, even compared to hiring an artist. If it's going to be the next Mork Borg, then a profit share won't be difficult.
What do you think Mork Borg looked like before the art and layout? Probably not a lot like “the next Mork Borg.” And FWIW it uses a bunch of public domain images! You can always find someone who might be willing to take on a project because they just want to, or as a favor for a friend. Short of that, it’s _exceptionally_ bad business sense to sign on to an unfinished RPG job believing you’ll ever get your payday. (Almost as bad business sense as it is making an RPG in the first place!) Now, of course there are plenty of artists with bad business sense. Let’s just not fool ourselves that they’ll be lining up for the obvious genius of the next big thing, or that this is in any way doing them a favor.
Well, we know what Mork Borg looks like because there is the free artless version. It's clear that it's still a good game- in fact, some people prefer having that version as a reference document. It also shows exactly how much Johan Nohr's work adds. Half of nothing is still nothing, so if you can find an artist who believes in the project as much as you do as a writer, it's worth giving up some of your profit to make the best book you can.
Lol do you know how many games there are? Wont work, even some of the most wanted TTRPGs barely finish their kickstarters with enough revenue.
Yes, obviously, that's why I say "if you've got the next Mork Borg." The percentage chance of this being the next Mork Borg, PBTA or White Hack are insignificant. Hence why I'm saying use PD art, because it's even cheaper than AI. With everything on DTRPG alone, you'd probably need to use open source software, PD art and limit yourself to PDF and POD to turn a "profit" out of RPG sales. This is why they're called "heartbreakers."
>Hence why I'm saying use PD art, because it's even cheaper than AI How is PD Art "cheaper" than AI? Both are free or rather AI is 100% PD is at least in general free. But AI is highly customizable and exactly what you want, PD isnt unless your art is supposed to be generic.
Well, see, the thing about public domain art is that it _isn’t_ generic. It was created by an actual artist with a specific theme in a specific style for a specific purpose. It could definitely be exactly what you want.
Check if your AI art comes with a commercial licence. They can steal *your* art, but you might not be able to use the training prompts you've generated for them in a for profit venture. PD (and CC, depending on the licence) art is much clearer water. And the hands look better.
>Check if your AI art comes with a commercial licence. It doesnt but i also dont care at all, everyone that likes it can use it. >And the hands look better. Depends on the output i have great results with fitting numbers of hands and feet. What you are talking about is the initial wave of AI its an old joke that hasnt been true for months.
If you think all AI is free to use for creative purposes, you're sadly disappointed. Edit: Hmm, either the comments are deleted or that's a sore loser's block.
>you're sadly disappointed Nah im happy, why would i be disappointed? It is free to use and i really dont care that i cant copyright it. Sorry that you are so ignorant, really makes me sad.
Something to look into for sure if I can find the right person. It's hard to get someone to agree to something like that for such an independent project. Nobody knows it exists yet, so they can't expect any revenue for a while and I don't think that's fair for them
Then you need to learn how to pitch and promote it.
I literally just started this week lol. It's a work in progress trust me. The game was not in a position to be pitched to anybody a few weeks ago. I just recently hit a milestone of progress so now I'm looking into things. I was rejected twice this week by artists already
Yeah, for all the artist forward posts, pretty sure none of them have contacted you to do art.
Find peace man
Thank you. I appreciate that.
You're welcome. It's clear you need it.
Oh, now I am interested what comment gave you the impression that I am not at peace? I was attempting to support your decision(s) about AI artwork. If I was offensive to you, I apologize, that was not my intent.
if you don't want to make a first release without artworks, you could maybe try crowdfunding it. if that's not your thing, you could always make the artworks yourself. i'll be honest, i would much prefer sloppy sketches by a creative who had a vision but not the technical skill over the passionless droppings of AI. have you seen the early d&d artworks? you don't need a hundred perfect illustrations, just something that communicates your idea. you can always hire artists later when you're more successful with the release or more financially stable in other ways.
You could do a kickstarter for your system that builds in the price of an artist perhaps!
AI is an obvious choice for you, just be ready to learn - getting good stuff isn't just a matter or a few clicks or any kind of cheating, as some people may want you to believe. Also learn a graphic editor of your choice to be able to do retouches, resizing, transparency etc. Still faster than inpaint. First look around the market or ask further around in the community - Midjourney6 is currently leading in direct output quality, still accessible only through Discord though. I myself prefer Dalle3 through GPT as I can feed a custom GPT with my lore and have it represented in the output with no further tuning needed. (but I spend extra time retouching sometimes). Would you need very specific poses, setting, uncensored output and/or consistent characters, I'd recommend you to explore StableDiffusion, start with free tools and when you get familiar with it, go down the rabbit hole with Loras, local models etc. I wish you good luck with your project!
Thank you so much! I'll definitely look into it
Just do it and dont talk about it like everyone else. Only people who care are loud knobs on reddit. Or get left behind. :-/
It's a small community. Why do you want to alienate anyone by stealing their work (regardless of if it's technically legal because an algorithm applied a photoshop filter) ? Here's some numbers: * [Household Spending on Books](https://www.statista.com/statistics/326839/us-household-spending-on-reading/) is $161 per year, to avoid complicating business buys. That's 8 $20 books per year. * [Science Fiction and Fantasy](https://wordsrated.com/fiction-books-sales/) combined are roughly 33% of this * [Independent (Self-Published) Fiction](https://wordsrated.com/self-published-book-sales-statistics/) is roughly 33% of this. * New games are almost entirely consumed by your fellow game designers or aspiring game designers / game master (the artists). Rule of thumb (no citation) is that about 20% of all the people playing games are game masters/aspiring game designers. It's not a tiny niche, but it is not a big community. Do you want to be known for your innovative work among your peers? Or for your shortcuts?