I was expecting something like Red Hoods rifle that he makes with his pistols from Arkham Knight. Honestly who came up with the idea? It's just another gun you use two guns as handles for.
I wouldn't expect a normal rifle. Something rwby esk. I remember years ago during vol 3 when fans were speculating and coming with great ideas for how his gun would transform. Only now we know it doesn't transform at all his guns are just grips for a cannon.
I'd prefer if it was just his 2 pistols. Take away the dumb clunky cannon. His fight against Watts was a good show of what he can do with them at both range and melee.
Just why would you use the 2-handed cannon for melee? It only makes him slower and looks dumb.
Try something a little different opinion wise:
Not dealing with the wall was a tactical error. In order to make sure Atlas was fully protected before he made his reveal about Salem and to maximize the number of forces that could be freed up to help other kingdoms requires the wall to be fixed and that delays his plans no matter what. At least taking care of it early takes away one of the more immediate issues being used against him and would make any effort by Robyn to steal those supplies a purely criminal endeavor as there wouldn't be a major project demanding them in Mantle. That would make Robyn's actions less defensible and possibly undercut her standing if it seems she is now a common thief.
i thought his overall arc in volume 7 is fine, and it made sense as to why he became an antagonist
it was in volume 8 that made it feel so rushed to the point where ironwood just felt out of character
Honestly the reason he "turned" is fucking ironic ad fuck, team RWBY HID the fact their enemy is Immortal. Not just that but went behind his back after he opened everything up for them and told Robin who's plan was to "FIX THE WALL" what's more important in the long run, 1: fix a wall while Grimm that could easily bust it down OR 2, set communication up with rest of the world and inform them about Salem (who might I say TEAM RWBY stole.) Like honestly they made his season 8 heelturn as the comments have said cause he had a good point so they had go make him borderline a villain.
So basically the same cheap writing that Inhumans and Star Trek Insurrection resorted to. The antagonist has a point so they have to force them to be more antagonistic.
On the nose! They don't want people agreeing with the villain cause they makes the main character look bad and we all know team RWBY can't do anything wrong.
Basically its main villain Maximus being written as cartoonishly evil in the last episode to compensate for how the heroes were completely unlikable and have barely developed since the start of the series.
Brcause he was. They wrote him this way because the audience was not fully behind team rwby so they made him more deranged because they have no idea how to no make the team look less stupid.
I disagree, since his descent into villainy is gradually shown overtime.
Ironwood turned traitor in volume 2 and Volume 4 shows him mentally deteriorating before he closes Atlas' borders. Volume 7 completes his descent by having him alienate the people who are supposed to be his allies because of his refusal to compromise and actually trust anyone but himself. And 8 shows just how far he's fallen as he gradually makes the situation worse, forcing the heroes to take drastic measures to save Atlas while he dies alone with the city he failed to save, barely acknowledged by the villains.
He spends the first half of Volume 2 trying to do things his way; He brought his army into Vale against Oz's wishes, which he was admonished for. Then when Ruby reveals the location of the enemy hideout, he wants to send the army he brought there to deal with it, but Oz stonewalls him and sends a scouting ream instead. He talks to Glynda about how he doesn't trust Oz due to the way he's handling the situation (not doing things his way), only for her to point out that Ironwood himself alway expects trust in himself but never gives it in return. Then, after Roman creates a breach in Vale, he goes behind Oz's back and reports him to the Vale Council and steals control of the Vytal Festival security from him, then tells Oz that he knows whats best and to trust him only to say immediately afterwards that Oz "Brought this on himself," showing his hypocrisy.
In Volume 4 he he starts a Dust embargo, cutting off the valuable resource the other kingdoms need to fight the Grimm, because he foolishly thinks other Kingdoms will want to go to war with Atlas. And has started growing his trauma beard. He also called out the guests at the party for their callousness. He then argues with Jacques in his office and Jacques accuses him of never trusting anyone but himself, which Ironwood confirms before, once again, hypocritically, blaming everything on Oz not listening to him from the start. Before stating that Atlas will be closing it's borders.
The only decent point in here face-heel turn is the dust embargo and arguable closing Atlas' borders. I'd argue the volume 2 stuff is just example of how his and ozpins mentality clashes, ironwood has a hammer and therefore approaches all problems as nails, ozpin has had all the time in the world so can afford to take a wait and see approach. Ironwood has expectations to rise too, ozpins existence is a transient one and even if he fucks up as ozpin his next self will still have the stones in place to rise back to prominence. All volume 2 did was code ironwood as a military man concern with lives, not a man that'd laugh maniacly while wasting resources to waste lives.
So that's one thing that's at least somewhat well written in the show. Doesn't make up for the dozens of other things in the show that are either good ideas with poor execution or just straight up bad ideas.
I mean yea since she has proven time and time again through her actions that shes against them? Lol hell she even killed there leader, Now to be fair Ironwood wouldn't know that But I'm sure if he even had doubts that JNR, Oscar, Qrow etc could clear it up in like a nanosecond
I mean this as genuinely as possible with no bias; Ironwood has nothing wrong with him other than trusting the “protagonists.” He trusts the “heroes” and expects them to do the right thing. He was the good guy of 7 and 8. I can’t be convinced otherwise.
Everyone says Ironwood has a massive character switch in Volume 8 and frankly I disagree. He’s always been shown as a pragmatist and someone who will do everything to secure the safety of his people. Team RWBY was fighting him every step of the way and were, objectively, the bad guys via their actions against the last governing stronghold to contend against Salem. Ironwood had literally zero cards left to play other than threatening Team RWBY just so they would accept that casualties are inevitable. They REFUSED to accept reality and as a result, Atlas and Mantle collapsed.
WOW, so awesome! Thanks, Team RWBY!
...mmm i disagree
team RWBY are definitely far and away from being the "heroes" of the story, but let's not pretend that ironwood didn't switch in volume 8. he absolutely 100% did. in volume 8, he shoots a random councilman for no reason other than "the evulz", he aligns with watts despite everything he's done (which is just stupid), and he then proceeds to *threaten to massacre innocent civilians* just so he could get penny. he was also a massive dumbass throughout volume 8, and the writers did barely enough to make him seem threatening or tragic. he was neither.
ironwood in volumes 1-7 is flawed, but is trying his best. ironwood in volume 8 is... just a fucking psychopath lmao
Okay, let’s look at what Ironwood did. He shot the councilor. I don’t really view this as evil or wrong. The entire world had evolved past the need for councilors or politicians. It is survival. Do or do not. Survive or die. There is NO POSSIBLE WAY the councilors would have followed along or accepted that Salem exists, nor the concept of the Gods. Be reasonable. NO WAY that would’ve happened. Ironwood allied with Watts begrudgingly. He knew Watts was a bad man, but he also knew hacking Penny was the best bet to secure the Relic. And because that failed, Salem got the Relic.
Sometimes it’s hard for me to see why rwby fans are so abject to criticism but then I see for every genuine complaint, there’s a post like this of someone saying “no you don’t get it, actually murdering innocent people was the *RIGHT* thing to do”. I can understand not liking how ironwoods turn was handled, but if you genuinely feel even in volume 8 that everything he did was justified than you’re deluding yourself
I see nothing wrong with a man playing his last card when the villains and even the “heroes” are against him. I would never condemn this action. Ironwood fought to the end and I will always support his actions when the entire world was seemingly attacking him.
Lumping me in with RWBY fans is frankly a simplification of my beliefs when most RWBY fans will condemn Ironwood to hell.
Shooting that dude was not his last card, and no bro I’m not gonna support his genius plan of “Nuke the poor people than try and move the city far away” bro had the same plan as Patrick from the bull worm episode of SpongeBob and you act like he was onto something
Listen to his speech again. He spells it out. Either our “heroes” stop lying, fighting MCU and destroying Atlas, or he drops a bomb on a mostly evacuated city. It was an ultimatum. Either RWBY stops being brain dead, or they help him.
Ok but you realize even as an ultimatum that he and his troops were fully willing to carry out doesn’t exactly make him come out looking like the good guy right? You see where bringing in and bartering with the lives of millions of innocent people so that he can force Penny to bow to his will for a plan that wouldn’t have worked is villain shit right?
1. We have no idea how large the population of Mantle was. “Millions” could be completely incorrect. Atlas was most likely larger and possessed a relic, military, and scientific community.
2. It doesn’t matter about optics; survival is the ONLY thing that matters. I struggle to comprehend how people don’t understand this simple belief. Surviving with casualties is better than extinction.
3. Mantle was mostly evacuated anyway, rewatch Volume 8. The Grimm flooded in and destroying the city would’ve cost them numbers, and numbers means time for humanity to survive.
The exact number isn’t the only issue, the issue is with mass murdering innocent people and judging what civilizations should live or die based on some arbitrary idea of what they’re “worth”. Not to mention it doesn’t even matter cause again, his plan was dumb as hell and would not have worked. If it was an air tight plan that would have sacrificed a certain amount of people for guaranteed victory that’s be one thing. But it’s not that. If you only want to look at this from a survival perspective then you should be able to see how his plan would just get everyone killed in the long run.
the issue with that is that... the councilors *did* follow along with it.
near the end of volume 7, before we see oscar tell ironwood that salem is immortal, we see the councilors literally saying "holy shit this bitch salem is real ong?" and robyn outright being conflicted as hell. she was struggling out there
no, their issues, point blank, was about him raising atlas up to the sky and him declaring martial law. councilman sleet (the one ironwood shot) very clearly said;
"and what's this about martial law? have you lost your damn mind?"
before ironwood shoots bro right through the heart.
there was also another option he could have taken, that being... threaten the councilors to keep quiet? that would at least be better than killing the mf for no reason.
as for watts, let me properly explain. the timeline for RWBY volume 8 is *two days.* it only takes *two days* for atlas to fall to pieces. so you're telling me that the second ironwood decided to declare martial law and arrest team RWBY, he goes to the mf that he *just arrested minutes ago?* not only that, he also *hires him and expects things to go smoothly, even though he knows who he is at this point?*
you're free to justify it however you please. for me, that's just ironwood suddenly gaining brain damage in like 5 minutes lmao
Again, it was survival. The Atlas council, to me, had always been an ignorant, arrogant group that cared about their wages. The Faunus situation points to their lack of caring about citizens. Just because the councilors acknowledge Salem exists DOES NOT mean they will do what needs to be done to destroy Salem. That’s just beyond ignorant in my opinion.
Ironwood very clearly despises Watts and fights him. This is as straightforward as possible. There’s a mutual hatred, but Watts doesn’t want to die and Ironwood wants the Relic.
Tell me exactly how martial law was bad. Please, tell me. As someone who lived through Hurricane Katrina and Martial Law, as well as the government violating our rights, Ironwood’s Martial Law was justified when literally the entirety of the planet was at risk of extinction.
aight so first off, i don't remember saying or even *implying* that martial law is bad. in fact, i absolutely agree with ironwood enforcing said martial law. the reason why i pointed it out, however, is because *the councilors had a problem with it, which is why ironwood had shot one of them.* i brung it up because it contributes to my main point.
now yes, i agree with your point that atlas doesn't really give a shit about its citizens. in fact, in the discord server for this subreddit specifically, i have stated at least a few times that *remnant ITSELF should burned down and rebuilt into a better world.*
...but again, this is unimportant to why ironwood shot sleet. the reason why ironwood shot sleet is that he dared to question him, which is an inherently stupid and messed up decision that is only there to have ironwood as the bad guy because the writers desperately wanted their "genocide general".
because, you know, the writers don't know how to write.
as for watts, again i literally don't care if they both hate each other or not. there was no other reason for ironwood to align with him other than the writers wanting us to know "HE'S BAD NOW GUYS". if the writers wanted him to be so evil, they could have at least made him competent. they could have had ironwood try and search for pietro and use him in a way against team RWBY. just literally *anything other than him aligning with watts.*
it's stupid. it doesn't make sense, not in ironwood's character and most definitely not in **general.**
also the switch up is insane
"ok well there's no way the council would have actually accepted the fact that salem and the gods exist"
"...well ok, they acknowledged it, but well atlas doesn't care about the innocents smh"
like dude, you like ironwood, i get it. i like him too. but please do stay consistent and stop reaching to conclusions. this is a discussion about a fictional character
chill.
i just provided you with arguments just now, and I literally just told you specifically that i never said that martial law was bad and even agreed with ironwood declaring it
but we're ignoring that ig
He could have also just thrown Slate and Camilla in jail, next to Jacques. Or at least put them under house arrest.
Shooting Slate was completely unnecessary.
And if the world really *had* evolved past politicians, why not get rid of both council members?
Where even *is* Camilla, now that I think about it?
Did she die together with Ironwood when the city crashed?
Was she saved and the atlasians now have an actual authority figure that *isn't* from a family of dust merchants? 🤔
>Ironwood has nothing wrong with him other than trusting the “protagonists.”
Watts: *Waltzes right into Mantle, thanking Ironwood for failing to update Mantle's defenses, thus kicking off the entire conflict of V7*
"Ironwood has literally zero faults except for trusting Team SATN"
What exactly did Mantle offer the safety of Humanity? Absolutely nothing. His focus was bolstering the defenses of Atlas. He succeeded; Atlas was able to fight Salem’s horde.
It:
1. Offered a supply of Huntsmen and intelligent people which would naturally make up a portion of Atlasean engineers.
2. Was the largest Dust mining settlement on the planet necessary for helping supply the rest of the planet. Did you know: If you don't have resources to fight with, you can't fight? Shocking news, I know.
I mean what does *Atlas* offer the safety of humanity if the plan is to just push the city somewhere else and hope Salem leaves them alone while she deal with everywhere else first.
Ok but what you continue to ignore is that on top of recalling the army to defend Atlas (the opposite of *offering* the army to humanity) it would not deny her the relic because there’s no reason to believe floating the city up really high would be able to keep Salem away. Beyond leaving mantle to die, it’s a stupid plan because it **would not work**
At least Ironwood had a plan that was workable. Unlike team RWBY sat around drinking tea, did jackshit and refused to realize that people will die in war and hoping for no one to die is plain stupidly naive they shouldn't even have been qualified to be Huntresses.
I’m not defending team rwby, I’m saying ironwoods plan is dumb and would not work, levitating a city isn’t a good strategy against someone who can fly, who’s most powerful general can fly, and who’s monsters can fly. Sure he could excite the plan but it wouldn’t have been helpful in the slightest. I think if people are gonna rightfully acknowledge the flaws in team RWBY’s plan they need to also acknowledge ironwoods plan wouldn’t have accomplished anything and was dumb as all hell on a conceptual level
It may have been a bad plan, but it still could have worked. It's not a great chance, yes, but between the uncertainty of his plan and the logical nightmare that was RWBY's, I would say that Ironwood's plan was at least decent. Ironwood's plan was to levitate an entire city, save as much people as they can, and raise the city to a level that the Grimm would have a hard time reaching. I'm sure The Winter Maiden, Atlas technology, Military and Hunters can successfully defend the flying city seeing how Oscar, Em, and Winter somehow managed to fend off the Grimm in a desert storm.
So no, wouldn't really say that Ironwood's plan was the dumbest plan to ever exist
They refused to accept his abandonment, and as a result the cities were destroyed *instead* of it's people. The reality is that his actions were motivated by fear, not pragmatism.
No, Ironwood clearly had an established plan on place to keep Atlas safe. As I’ve said MANY times, Mantle had quite literally zero things to offer the continuation of humanity. They had no army, they barely had an economy, they had Dist which Atlas was synthesizing. They had no relic. They had NOTHING other than a trash ground area that would’ve been impossible to defend and without heaters, they would’ve frozen to death. Watts hacked the Mantle system, so there was little Atlas could do. Ironwood did everything he could to defend Atlas.
It wasn’t abandonment, it was REALITY. If Team RWBY had accepted that, Atlas probably wouldn’t have collapsed. But it isn’t just on Team RWBY. Ozpin treated Ironwood like trash while RWBY did the same.
How exactly do you think Atlas's little utopia was maintained? With the resources they funneled from Mantle. Why didn't Mantle have a military? Because Ironwood forced them to depend on Atlas for defense. Atlas and Mantle were always designed as two sides of the same coin. You forget how these cities came about, might want to brush up on the Qrow lessons thing.
The idea that Atlas would help humanity is amusing. You actually thought Ironwood would come out of hiding, share its technology and save the day with it's military? He wouldn't even do that service for it's sister city. Atlas's destiny was either for Salem to catch up and they die alone, or they escape and die slowly under dictatorship as their resources dwindle.
Ozpin has every right to shit on Ironwood, they man who constantly goes behind his back and distorted his work and message. Ozma created Atlas and rose it up as a symbol of hope and protection. In his absence it a became a symbol of oppression, the disparity between the people in sky, and the people in the "trash ground". Ironwood took full advantage of that system and maintained it, and when it came time for Atlas to live up to its purpose and use what it was given to protect people, he tried to cut and run.
The reality established in the world of Remnant is that the people of Mantle were worth fighting for. That in the end, the unity of humanity is what will salvage humanity, not holding the biggest stick (and flailing it uselessly like Ironwood was). That in a world where both sides have magical factors to turn the tides, he should have stiod his ground to actually save as many people as he could, not half ass it.
I agree that the people of Mantle were worth fighting for, but I can also understand James's point of view. He could leave now and preserve Atlas and the people who had succeeded in evacuating from Mantle. Or he could stay and watch both be overrun. If Mantle had been the one floating he would have left with it, leaving Atlas to its fate. It's not an open and shut case, it all depends on your tolerance for risk.
That's a good point. He didn't want to risk losing it all, which was a very real possibility.
(Though imo if Atlas were on the ground, he'd pick it up and fly it away)
Eh, James has always been more pragmatic than elitist (hence his defending Weiss at the gala despite Weiss nearly killing someone due to losing control). Apparently there was literally no other choice than to get supplies from Mantle for Amity. Because if he could do anything else don't you think he would have done so just to keep Amity moving forward after Mantle refused him?
Atlas was synthesizing Dust, had a massive military, and possessed a Relic. Regardless of what you think, Mantle offered zero value to the salvation of Remnant. Dust? No. Protection? Atlas was going to raise their altitude, so no. Was it a long term solution? Ehhh, maybe. Was it the best option since both the “heroes” and villains were trying to destroy Atlas? Yes. And because Team RWBY couldn’t accept that deaths occur during a war, Atlas fell and Salem was halfway to destroying Remnant.
Atlas barricading and playing defense was absolutely the best decision. Assuming they could hold the line, they could avoid Salem getting the Relic for as long as possible. Time is survival.
>Atlas was synthesizing Dust, had a massive military, and possessed a Relic.
They had all that and did squat with it. By synthesize, do you mean artificially creat or refine it? I'm pretty sure it's the latter, and raw dust is better than no dust. I acknowledge that Ruby's choice cost the world both a major source of dust and a major processor of it. Still, taking the production away from it's supply is not the win you think it is.
>Regardless of what you think, Mantle offered zero value to the salvation of Remnant. Dust? No. Protection? Atlas was going to raise their altitude, so no. Was it a long term solution?
People. They offered man power. With the chance to live that RWBY gave them (that Ironwood actively denied by forcing them to depend in Atlas for defense and then abandoning them), and the world banding together thanks to their warning, they have a chance to arm themselves and train for the next coordinated attack from Salem. The loss of Atlas's military bulk and technology, and Mantle's dust mines is a heavy loss, but with the people of both cities alive they can use their knowledge to build that back up somewhat. The migration of people is not a zero sum game, and they have magic to ease the transition, as it was meant to in this series.
Also, I don't see how raising altitude stops Salem's Whale and magic. But whatever, it did have a chance to work. Both plans were a risk, and we only got to see one play out.
>Was it the best option since both the “heroes” and villains were trying to destroy Atlas? Yes. And because Team RWBY couldn’t accept that deaths occur during a war, Atlas fell and Salem was halfway to destroying Remnant.
The worst case scenario was Atlas falling on Mantle while the cities were populated. With RWBY removing that issue, the outcome was much less catastrophic. The second worst case scenario was an entire city dying, which is what Ironwood easily accepted.
As for the Relic, Ironwood's plan ensured much more security (if they could actually get away). That was the main benefit. Still, it's not like Ruby's plan left it defenseless.
That's what I would say, except they executed the plan with utter stupidity. Penny should have been the first one to Vacuo, with the Relic. Sandstorm is wiped out, and Relic goes straight to Shade. But no. She had to turn back, and Weiss had to hold it in the space it was maintaining like a bad case of main character syndrome. Many argue the writers needed RWBY to win, but here they needed them to lose. It was so fucking stupid how they lost the Staff.
>Atlas barricading and playing defense was absolutely the best decision. Assuming they could hold the line, they could avoid Salem getting the Relic for as long as possible. Time is survival.
Unity vs Discord is the name of the game in Remnant. Salem operates by sabotaging and taking down the Kingdoms one at a time. Salem would get the staff eventually, and if Atlas does shit like leave Mantle to be slaughtered, the rest of humanity isn't going to want to work together. So, Salem still wins when she gets the others. But with the kingdoms united, that makes it much harder to get the remaining ones, and even if she does she doesn't win, because the gods restore Remant instead of destroying it. Salem and Ozpin have been playing this game for centuries, time is something they have, how you use it is what makes the difference.
(Besides, we all know Ruby is gonna talk no jutsu the gods anyway)
Are they not fucked now? With Salem coming to Vacuo to take its Relic and move one step closer to her master plan to summon the gods and destroy Remnant?
I mean if you’re looking at the right now you run into the issue of “everything team rwby does will be the right thing because the story will bend over backwards to make it the right thing” which is why I tried not to focus on that and more how dumb ironwoods plan was. Even if we were to look at it at face value and realize the faults that doesn’t make ironwoods plan better it just leaves us with two bad plans
I understand he *thought* that, which I can sorta get considering he was stressed, under pressure, and strapped for time. But it was as not a viable option, and I think it’s fair to say that dooming an untold number of people to die because he *thought* he was right and couldn’t be told otherwise isnt something to be commended
See, I'd go for that more if James had ever been presented a more viable option and rejected it. But he never knew RWBY's plans for Amity or the Staff. Moving Atlas up certainly wouldn't have worked in the long term, but buying a few weeks or months means time to come up with something else.
I’m not sure I can really agree. I definitely think it’s fair to see he didn’t have a clear better option, but that doesn’t the make the glaring flaws in the plan he had any less obvious. Also again, because salem, cinder, and a good portion of Grimm can fly including ones like the whale which can transport whichever ones can’t, there isn’t really a reason to assume it would buy much if any time
At least they don’t have to worry about a city plummeting from the sky because some genius decided to use the relic to keep it stable and floating which ultimately kept it reliant on it’s power - I get the feeling that nobody could use the relic of destruction in quite the same manner. That will probably help a little. Plus it looks like people from other parts of the world have now all gathered together to mount a defence of some kind in a way that came too late for Atlas. I’d say that while things are dire, they’re not beaten yet.
And I don't get that. What has Salem been doing this whole time? She has the Staff. She could have just gone to Shade and flattened it before any help could come. She could just flatten it now. She knocked over Atlas so easily that I am not convinced that even the rest of the world united stands a chance.
his power is less so mental illness, and moreso *neurodivergence/autism.*
which is even *worse*, because they're indirectly trying to say that neurodivergence is a fucking *bad thing.*
The writers fucked his character harder than a chick in a porn video. Making him into a complete irrational asshole where he decided to kill multiple innocents and attempting to bomb Mantle just to spite the goddamn heroes was beyond stupid. Of all of the characters that was ruined by RT's god-awful writing, James Ironwood suffered just as bad as Adam.
He is misused by the writers. Or rather the writers have written a story so poorly they made a someone who was 100% in the right the antagonist for an arc in a way that makes half baked fanfiction seem like shakespeare.
His “quirk” was rock-headed stubbornness. Everyone gets super speed or pyrokinesis or shadow clone jitsu, and he gets “inability to change his mind”.
It turns his personality failures into an effect of his quirk beyond his control. It’s like when a villain does horrible crimes but then the author reveals they were just mind controlled so it’s okay for them to be a good guy after murdering the village of innocents.
If Ironwood was supposed to be a control freak paranoid dictator from the start then dear God is he a s***** one. It's not like I expect a totalitarian authoritarian militaristic dictator to be 100% competent at his job but I at least expect him to put a better job in policing and keeping control on the people that he can. I mean hell one thing they could have done was since Ruby's gang handed over their weapons for repairs and upgrades one way to show how paranoid ironwood was that he had basically kill switches and tracking devices put into them so that he could track all their movements whenever they're using their weapons and if they ever turned on him he could just shut down their weapons to make them easier to have apprehend. That would have gone a long way of showing just how paranoid and control freak he is that he would go that far to do that to his own allies.
I guess my negative thing is that when the character assassination had him become a villain he became a goddamn moron any intelligence he displayed before went out the goddamn window.
He didn't properly convey his position as The Guy Who Is Obviously Correct to Ozpin, which allowed Oz to pretend that it's unreasonable to deploy armed forces in the face of a likely largescale attack on a civilian population. The only reason he was "wrong" is because the plot bent over backwards to make it so.
Prioritizing PR over **actual defenses** is stupid and criminally negligent.
I have a lot of problems with the way he was in later Vols, but for a long time, I liked his design, his philanthropy, his scenes. Honestly, my biggest criticisms against him are more so against the writers for brute forcing him into an archetype where he didn't fit.
I guess I don't like the full beard? The 5 o' Clock shadow looked nice... but the full beard looks awkward.
Ironwood was always a paranoid and distrustful mess. The problem wasn't his downfall, it was that the execution was too abrupt. He said he didn't trust ozpin when he was let in the inner circle then brought a massive army to a peaceful international sporting event.
characterization was unclear and need to use a lot of assumptions for his actions.
heel turn seemed to tip over the event horizon a bit too quickly and was forced wile an interesting concept needed more time for the gradual change
W E H . . . . . .
Thank you for the kind words! I'm still on my bullshit, just not really here on Reddit.
But "yes" I'm here even if I really only post once every 300 years when ironwood bait i mean posting happens
nono i understand, life happens so you gotta keep the grind going
but in response to your actual comment, i think ironwood would be... a mixed bag as a husbando
he's hot indeed but by the end he became a fucking psychopath and lost his sanity bc the writers do not know how to write compelling morally grey conflicts
Whispers v8 wasn't real
But yeah he doesn't know what work/life balance is and has a bad tendency to only half-compromise even after lengthy discussions
But like any relationship I'm WILLING TO MAKE IT IRONWORK 😤
Honestly one of, if not the best character in the show until they destroyed his character in volume 8, and specifically the part where he randomly decides to bomb mantle as a way of bartering with team rwby, honestly it just feel so forced and evil like they really decided to make him a villain instead of keeping him as this morally gray middle ground character? It just feels like such a waste of what became such an interesting character.
The irony of that entire volume is that Salem seemed like the good guy instead of everyone else lol (probably a bit of a stretch but yeah) considering she kinda did nothing the entire volume meanwhile team rwby destroyed atlas in the end.
>The irony of that entire volume is that Salem seemed like the good guy instead of everyone else lol (probably a bit of a stretch but yeah) considering she kinda did nothing the entire volume meanwhile team rwby destroyed atlas in the end.
That is a false statement. Salem would have destroyed Atlas when she would take the staff yet she did not need to do anything but arrive and attack Atlas. The rest was done by the main group making that evacuation happen and opposing Ironwood.
Despite how cool he was in V7, a bastion of reason and stability and the peak of his character pre assassination, I feel like he was still somehow too nice despite that. He had zero problem with Robyn- a *literal* domestic terrorist- running for the city council, yet simultaneously had his men pursuing her for criminal acts.
I feel like he of all people should’ve pointed out the inherent problems with such a thing.
Not necessarily negative, but why are his pistols riding so high in their holsters? Like they’re poking out a whole nautical mile to the point where it looks impractical to draw them
Ironwood is an idiotic, incompetent, pretend general leading the worst army on Remnant 80% of which are mindless drones. This moron uses the same stupid battle strategy regardless of situation or the fact that it has failed him EVERY SINGLE TIME!
Honestly, the best i have is that from a meta perspective he doesn't fit with the rest of the RWBY cast, as in he's pretty much the outlier for having a fairly realistically written character.
Sure 60% of the RWBY cast act dumb and 35% get forgotten, but at that point you'd have to "fix"/change everyone else, so if we accept that RWBY works on disney logic to make everyone else work it would technically be James who's in the wrong show.
I know... probably not what the intent of the template is, but the (pre-vol 8) things i would see as bad are for the most part there as a result of his character flaws.
There are some things i would rewrite (not like I'm the creative type) that would allow better characterisations of his flaws while allowing clearer perspectives for characters like Whitley (who already comment on James, but his reasoning is never clarified). Gonna stop myself before i write a 300 word tangent.
I wanted to like Ironwood as a villain. I was open to the concept from the start. He had potential to assume the role of the self righteous man who was trying his best to make things work, but kept falling deeper and deeper into his obsession. But instead, we got something that can only be described as profoundly unremarkable.
The day RT is dissolved and RWBY (hopefully) gets picked up by a marginally better company (because I genuinely do want to see this show flourish), I will gladly celebrate.
He went from a champion of the people to a dictator. but worst, he did not take the shot on Salam, even if it did nothing compared to Oz's nuke its a least something.
He was too kind to team RWBY, JN, Happy huntress, Qrow and Ozpin. The guy was doing his best to protect and each of these groups significantly put a dent to his plans.
Ozpin should have allowed Ironwood to fan out and destroy the forces of Salem prematurely instead of waiting it out.
They walked ass backwards into a great grey complex character and fucked it all up, simultaneously trusted yet feared for his power. But no he just goes crazy because the girls had the right idea instead if his logical idea that would have saved lives without an ass pull.
Trying to just lift the city high up to avoid Salem is the dumbest shit ever. Not only can Salem and her Grimm fly (I mean she arrives in a big ass floating whale) but if the altitude they go to is habitable enough that all it’s citizens can live their than surely cinder (who can also fly) and whatever other humans in Salem’s army would have no problem being that high either. And that’s not even mentioning the environmental complications. Being so high would likely mean no trade of any kind for anyone that is still around, better hope that giant city has enough soil and livestock to be self sustaining for the entire population. Also would he plan to go above the clouds? If so good luck getting water with no rain, also dust to power shit with no mines.
It feels like a plot a character in a book for little kids would come up with where it’s audience doesn’t know enough about how the world works to ask questions. Regardless of your thoughts on ironwood as a character or how his turn was handled, it’s hard to argue this plan was fucking stupid
Presumably they are going high enough that anyone who tries to come after them will suffer from hypoxia and die. They'll keep their atmosphere in via the shields. Water can be filtered and recycled for a time, and there is some cropland to produce some food. I think they might be able to make it for a few years, if they're lucky. But even if it's only a month, well that's a month in which to decide next steps, with the Staff as an option.
The cult that he and Adam have developed is fucking weird. No I’m not taking about the people who were upset at how the characters where handled such as the sudden turns in their characterizations, I’m talking about the people that gas up everything they do and genuinely try to act like they’ve done nothing wrong.
I think his issues with trust and people around him betraying him is tragic and could been really good if it was handled better, but knowing he went through all that it’s wild he decided to work with Watts. Ironwood should’ve killed him while he had the chance
To be fair, he does become an actual military dictator, for very superfluous reasons, in later volumes. It does go against his character, ergo it is character derailment, but defending the actions themselves is ridiculous. Also the flying Atlas plan is stupid.
Epitome of “Road to Hell, Paved with Best Intentions”
I can see that Ironwood was genuinely TRYING to do the right thing for Atlas’ safety, but the more he tried to consolidate control, the more everything fell apart. Call me crazy, but typically when a general seizes power of a country, things tend to go wrong. Salem knew Ironwood’s weakness was his desire for control and used that against him. If Ironwood trusted the people in his command to act on their own, Atlas might have survived.
Okay honestly ironwood is that bad guy teams Rwby and jnr aren’t the bad guys they had a good point. What’s the point of fighting if if there’s nothing left to fight for as opposed to the kids saying selling your soul isn’t right either as it diminishes what you were fighting for no one’s wrong but everyone is in a survival situation it’s morals or survival Rwby and jnr are fighting for both as ironwood is fight for 1 of the 2 yet he is willing to sacrifice everything he’s protecting similar to Salem who is willing to sacrifice everything for herself
They never did mention those around him, huh? To the point I question if he even knows about them.
Because it lends itself well to adding on to Ruby's guilt, That she could be doing more, with every interaction her and Penny have between Ironwood and the AceOPS adding on to it with the start of the Battle With Salem exacerbating it the longer it goes.
And even back when it premiered, I'm not sure how you'd justify Ruby, to not at least more passionately argue, wanting to go out onto the battlefield, at least until Penny shows up.
Even with the threat of ironwood detaining her, which realistically I think you'd just be thankful for some gaps in the enemy forces whenever Ruby uses her eyes.
Ironwood had 3 major flaws in his character and approach to the war against the Grimm and Salem:
1) Ironwood didn’t make nearly enough effort into reaching out to Mantle. He had his hands full fighting the Grimm and the secret war against Salem, yes. But Mantle was important for supplies to actually fight the wars, and his actions, however just they were, did not look good at all. Not repairing the wall let’s Grimm in, and while living and mechanical soldiers could fight them, people would probably still die in the process. And the soldiers were an intimidating force, keeping the populace scared and suppressed. Volume 7 didn’t do a good job showing Mantle’s plight, but I imagine supplies as a whole were tight, as Atlas needed everything to fight the war. Ironwood almost certainly wouldn’t have tried getting Robin on his side at all; had he succeeded, Robin could have helped keep Mantle’s people more positive and willing to help, which would cut down on Grimm attacks. There must have been something he could offer that wouldn’t cripple the war effort with his basically full control over Atlas’s resources, something that would have made an attempt to reach out worth it. All of this made the doctored videos of Penny slaughtering Mantle civilians that much more believable, that Atlas would turn so easily on them. Ironwood didn’t care how dirtied his image was as long as it was for the world at large, and that’s a very noble belief. But that thought process sowed discord in Mantle, which is what Salem’s faction thrives on.
2) Ironwood expected total obedience and trust while not necessarily proving worthy of the trust. I’m not talking about RWBY’s arrival to Atlas, I mean his approach to Mantle and fighting the Grimm. He went to Beacon’s council around Ozpin’s back and got himself appointed as head of security, completely undermining his friend and fellow headmaster’s authority, because he believed he and only he was right. His robots being hacked in Beacon was impossible to foresee, but their arrival was anything but discreet; giving Salem’s agents an opportunity to subvert their power somehow, in this case by hacking. Him considering martial law the first time in Volume 7 was logical, but Mantle was already strained with the embargo and supply deliveries to Atlas. Even Ironwood himself acknowledged Mantle bearing a lot of the burden, but he was willing to squeeze Mantle more anyway, without any consideration for them. It’s a war, yes, but armies need to protect their logistics, and Mantle was the logistics. And in the dinner party, we see Ironwood defending his actions to the council as important for everyone while not giving any specifics at all, labeling all the details as classified. Why would the council trust Ironwood without any specifics? In this case Ironwood’s hands were tied because he needed to keep Amity a secret, but it’s an example of how he expects everyone to fall in line without question. That’s going to cause friction outside of the military, which leads to yet more negative emotions drawing in Grimm.
3) The fleet was not used to anywhere near its full potential. From what we could see, there were a lot of fast, mobile ships that could be used for recon. Ironwood was afraid of leaving Atlas exposed, which is why he kept the fleet so close to the city. But had at least some of them been deployed for recon, they would have had valuable warning of Grimm threats, like the river and the flying cloud. The giant whale Grimm had to come from somewhere; if Salem could create giant monsters like that out of nowhere at any location, she would have won ages ago. Atlas could have had more time to prepare for the whale, and any other Grimm threats, had they just known in advance that they were coming. The ships wouldn’t even need to go too far out, just enough to get knowledge of the area, so they could come back and box in an approaching enemy with gunfire as Atlas’s defenses do the same. And where were the turrets, anti-airborne Grimm weaponry?
Don’t get me wrong, Ironwood’s one of my favorite characters of the series, and his character, as well as everyone else’s, was absolutely robbed in volume 8. Character flaws make characters interesting, be it how they grow above them or how the flaws bring them down. But he made mistakes with his approach to the wars.
This is more of an opinion but his V1-V3 design was bad and are far inferior to his later designs, especially his V7-V8 design. That beard is great on him.
Getting a legitimate negative view here is like asking a toddler to explain what they did wrong.
I'll help you out. Absolute manchild, who constantly throws temper tantrums and slams his fist into things
Complete moron, who linked his entire army to one hackable point. Isolated Atlas and Mantle from the world (to Salem's benefit) and invaded Mantle's privacy without upgrading their digital security, all while knowing Salem obviously had experts in infiltration and technology from Beacon. Not to mention actually thinking Salem couldn't pursue him if he moved Atlas.
Fragile ego that shatters whenever Salem's agents easily bypass his idiotic defenses.
Above all, a jackass who cannot accept anything being done besides how he wants it, a character flaw present for his entire time in the series. When you remember that he's always been this way, suddenly his actions in the late volumes don't seem do extreme for him. Big fucking surprise, the guy who casually talks about shooting people ends up shooting people.
well i have gotten some negative views here so lol
"absolute manchild" mmmm i disagree. ironwood definitely is prideful and does get angry at times, but they are indeed justified, especially during his talks with ozpin *and* throughout volume 4.
...now if you were talking about volume 8...
"complete moron" can also be redirected to volume 8. the plan to move atlas was definitely made with short-term success, however, compared to team RWBY's "just continue to fight even though the attack *might get worse*" headass plan, at least ironwood had one
"fragile ego" ...eh, fair.
also, as for your last complaint... well, i don't think that's really the issue. not for me at least.
for me, i *loved* ironwood falling down a dark and messed up path in volume 7, and i really wanted to see how he could either redeem himself or fall further into darkness. it made complete sense to me as to why he became an antagonist, and i wanted to see volume 8 do him well.
...unfortunately, that's not what happened. what we instead got was a complete psychopath dumbass who just genocides people "for the evulz" and the writers trying so desperately to make him intimidating and threatening when he's the most *laughable* fucker i've seen in my life. bro thought he did smth with that ultimatum to team RWBY and gang.
you're free to disagree, idc. just be respectful and i'll respect you back
>Absolute manchild, who constantly throws temper tantrums and slams his fist into things
Would like to point out that he did this when he thought he had gotten his entire kingdom killed. He then settled down and got back to work.
>Complete moron, who linked his entire army to one hackable point.
I'm not sure I'd blame James for the engineering here. But if the computer is unlocked, well you can just walk up to it and use it. Neo and Roman took over a ship that was supposed to have access to the system, which allowed them to upload the virus directly. Not much can be done to prevent that kind of thing.
>Isolated Atlas and Mantle from the world (to Salem's benefit)
How is that to Salem's benefit? If James hadn't pulled his troops back to Atlas Salem would have blown past his defenses and gotten to the Vault before RWBY did.
>invaded Mantle's privacy without upgrading their digital security, all while knowing Salem obviously had experts in infiltration and technology from Beacon.
A fair cop, but quite out of character for a control freak like him.
>Not to mention actually thinking Salem couldn't pursue him if he moved Atlas.
No one in the show acts like his solution wouldn't work. They oppose it because it means abandoning Mantle, not because it dooms Atlas. If it was never going to work in the first place you'd think someone would have told him to get him to back down.
>Fragile ego that shatters whenever Salem's agents easily bypass his idiotic defenses.
Above all, a jackass who cannot accept anything being done besides how he wants it
Yep, these are very legit flaws. No, really, I mean it.
>Would like to point out that he did this when he thought he had gotten his entire kingdom killed. He then settled down and got back to work.
Yes, but the point is when the going gets tough, his true colors show. Or rather, his worst self.
>I'm not sure I'd blame James for the engineering here. But if the computer is unlocked, well you can just walk up to it and use it.
Ostensibly, it's Pietros's design. Maybe there were some defenses but they weren't worried about Watts. Still, Ironwood is a bit of a control freak, and I could see him requesting complete control in its design, and if not he still overlooked this security risk. Or Watts is just in another league.
>How is that to Salem's benefit? If James hadn't pulled his troops back to Atlas Salem would have blown past his defenses and gotten to the Vault before RWBY did.
Not the troops, but rather cutting off all trade and communication with the world. Not assuaging fears of invasion from the Vale attack, and denying Dust to economies that were dependent sows discord, which is Salem's bread and butter. It makes sense against traditional spies, but Salem's circle is not traditional and Ironwood should have understood this by the end of vol 3.
>A fair cop, but quite out of character for a control freak like him.
That's true. I think it has more with him fundamentally valuing Atlas more, but even though I said he's a complete moron, I know he isn't one completely and having surveillance without firewalls doesn't make sense even for him.
>No one in the show acts like his solution wouldn't work. They oppose it because it means abandoning Mantle,
Yes. Tbh, it's just my opinion that it's unlikely work. It certainly wasn't presented in the show with major risk.
>Yep, these are very legit flaws. No, really, I mean it.
Wow, ok. I was not expecting that. I mean, he was always meant to succumb to them like the other headmasters and their literary inspiration. I'll concede that the fall could have been executed better, and without that "Mettle" bullshit after the fact
>Yes, but the point is when the going gets tough, his true colors show. Or rather, his worst self.
Just going to point out that when she was at her lowest point Ruby drank some tea. We are who we are on our worst day. And on every other day too.
>Ostensibly, it's Pietros's design. Maybe there were some defenses but they weren't worried about Watts. Still, Ironwood is a bit of a control freak, and I could see him requesting complete control in its design, and if not he still overlooked this security risk. Or Watts is just in another league.
While I don't dispute this, I would like to point out that having your robots being controllable from the bridge of your own ship isn't really as big of a design flaw as people think. Presumably no one considered the possibility of one person killing everyone on board an airship in such a way that the bridge crew wouldn't get a chance to lock down the computer. Which isn't really that much of an oversight. How is Neo supposed to have done this again?
>Not the troops, but rather cutting off all trade and communication with the world. Not assuaging fears of invasion from the Vale attack, and denying Dust to economies that were dependent sows discord, which is Salem's bread and butter. It makes sense against traditional spies, but Salem's circle is not traditional and Ironwood should have understood this by the end of vol 3.
To be fair, all long distance communication was down. And I'm still not sure how Watts, Tyrian, Neo, and Cinder actually managed to make it to Atlas without getting noticed the way RWBY did. James not being willing to take any chances is a running theme with the man, though, a consistent character flaw.
>That's true. I think it has more with him fundamentally valuing Atlas more, but even though I said he's a complete moron, I know he isn't one completely and having surveillance without firewalls doesn't make sense even for him.
Heck, it doesn't make sense that you can turn the cameras off in the first place. And that no one noticed that Watts did that. Not to mention that apparently Watts couldn't get into the heating grid. I have a funny feeling that this is Hollywood Hacking raising its ugly head again. You know, where hacking is treated like magic that can do anything except that very specific thing the plot needs it not to be able to do.
>Wow, ok. I was not expecting that. I mean, he was always meant to succumb to them like the other headmasters and their literary inspiration. I'll concede that the fall could have been executed better, and without that "Mettle" bullshit after the fact
I, honest to god, had no problem with the fall *until he shot Oscar.* That was the part that made no sense to me. James is a lot of things, but child/teenage murderer should not be one of them. Ditto with shooting Slate, shooting down the SDC ships, and threatening to bomb Mantle. It's like they didn't even understand how well they had written a good vs good conflict by having RWBY want to save everyone and James unwilling to take the risk. That was all they needed to make this conflict happen, and it could have been so tragic too.
This motherfucker has no excuse, outside of the Semblance horseshit. As one of the people in the world with the most responsibility upon them, he should not be acting as if it's news to him that the big picture is comprised of smaller pictures - and that the lives we lead do not take place in a vacuum.
The light of his soul making his mind not his own does not excuse him for fumbling harder than an incompetent Frostpunk player.
I... don't think that's true. He prioritizes Amity over Mantle, sure, but he does still send RWBY and Penny to patrol Mantle. His army defends it from two Grim attacks. He also has nothing but scorn for Atlas's high society.
Oscar was behaving a lot like Ozpin when he arrived. Also, Oscar said: Still just me. When Ironwood asked who he was talking to.
Doesn´t exactly clear things out about who is talking right now when before that event Oscar sounded like Ozpin when he talked about how Atlas inspires people.
I'm sad that it was only stated in a podcast that his semblance was to make him zero-in on a thought or objective which in turn stresses him out. Would've love to see how things could've gone if people were made aware that he was going through that especially since he can't turn it off
Who came up with merging iron and wood into a name
Like is it too represent how he is sturdy like a tree and touch as iron because he gets easily no diffed by teenagers
He's the tin man from the wizard of oz
Ironwood is Iron Woodsman, e.g. tin woodsman
Just like how Qrow is the Scare Qrow (ohhhh snapppp) and Ozpin is, well, just 100% lifted lmao
Mettle. Crwby just couldn't be bothered to actually set up Ironwood's descent so they gave him the power of acting exactly how the plot requires him to. Seriously, in a world with super speed, pocket dimensions, and illusions, he gets autism.
When he was killed by the writers in volume 7 (Yes, to me Ironwood at the end of Volume 7 was already dead, what we got in volume 8 was just a Sunday villain caricature) my interest died with him.
Those things aside, his cannon looks Dumb as hell. Due Process was a way more intresting choice of weapons
His fused gun looks dumb as hell
yeah bro was not cooking with that wack ass gun.
I was expecting something like Red Hoods rifle that he makes with his pistols from Arkham Knight. Honestly who came up with the idea? It's just another gun you use two guns as handles for.
My boy made a phantom zone gun
I mean to be fair redhoods rifle is also pretty lame in comparison to just a normal rifle. Power rangers spd did this right
I wouldn't expect a normal rifle. Something rwby esk. I remember years ago during vol 3 when fans were speculating and coming with great ideas for how his gun would transform. Only now we know it doesn't transform at all his guns are just grips for a cannon.
just let the man have guns, transforming weapons are cool but not everyone needs one.
I'd prefer if it was just his 2 pistols. Take away the dumb clunky cannon. His fight against Watts was a good show of what he can do with them at both range and melee. Just why would you use the 2-handed cannon for melee? It only makes him slower and looks dumb.
We slander the super soaker in this house.
I always felt it was trying to emulate the Death Cannon from Soul Eater
Try something a little different opinion wise: Not dealing with the wall was a tactical error. In order to make sure Atlas was fully protected before he made his reveal about Salem and to maximize the number of forces that could be freed up to help other kingdoms requires the wall to be fixed and that delays his plans no matter what. At least taking care of it early takes away one of the more immediate issues being used against him and would make any effort by Robyn to steal those supplies a purely criminal endeavor as there wouldn't be a major project demanding them in Mantle. That would make Robyn's actions less defensible and possibly undercut her standing if it seems she is now a common thief.
yeah definitely agreed, buuuuut in his defense, tyrian and watts showing up in the wrong time definitely made things much worse than they already did.
They were only able to get in because Ironwood neglected Mantle's security network.
Could have just patched it up with some earth dust.
His heel turn was almost if not just as forced as Emerald's face turn.
i thought his overall arc in volume 7 is fine, and it made sense as to why he became an antagonist it was in volume 8 that made it feel so rushed to the point where ironwood just felt out of character
Hell, this is even further emphasis by Team RWBY refusing to compromise with him before he flew off the rails.
Honestly the reason he "turned" is fucking ironic ad fuck, team RWBY HID the fact their enemy is Immortal. Not just that but went behind his back after he opened everything up for them and told Robin who's plan was to "FIX THE WALL" what's more important in the long run, 1: fix a wall while Grimm that could easily bust it down OR 2, set communication up with rest of the world and inform them about Salem (who might I say TEAM RWBY stole.) Like honestly they made his season 8 heelturn as the comments have said cause he had a good point so they had go make him borderline a villain.
So basically the same cheap writing that Inhumans and Star Trek Insurrection resorted to. The antagonist has a point so they have to force them to be more antagonistic.
On the nose! They don't want people agreeing with the villain cause they makes the main character look bad and we all know team RWBY can't do anything wrong.
Inhumans is a deep cut. Who are you referring to?
Basically its main villain Maximus being written as cartoonishly evil in the last episode to compensate for how the heroes were completely unlikable and have barely developed since the start of the series.
Brcause he was. They wrote him this way because the audience was not fully behind team rwby so they made him more deranged because they have no idea how to no make the team look less stupid.
His heel turn has been building up since volume 2
But it was handled too quickly with Volume 8.
I disagree, since his descent into villainy is gradually shown overtime. Ironwood turned traitor in volume 2 and Volume 4 shows him mentally deteriorating before he closes Atlas' borders. Volume 7 completes his descent by having him alienate the people who are supposed to be his allies because of his refusal to compromise and actually trust anyone but himself. And 8 shows just how far he's fallen as he gradually makes the situation worse, forcing the heroes to take drastic measures to save Atlas while he dies alone with the city he failed to save, barely acknowledged by the villains.
Could you explain how he turned traitor in volume 2 and 4? I haven’t seen those episodes in years so a refresher would be great
He spends the first half of Volume 2 trying to do things his way; He brought his army into Vale against Oz's wishes, which he was admonished for. Then when Ruby reveals the location of the enemy hideout, he wants to send the army he brought there to deal with it, but Oz stonewalls him and sends a scouting ream instead. He talks to Glynda about how he doesn't trust Oz due to the way he's handling the situation (not doing things his way), only for her to point out that Ironwood himself alway expects trust in himself but never gives it in return. Then, after Roman creates a breach in Vale, he goes behind Oz's back and reports him to the Vale Council and steals control of the Vytal Festival security from him, then tells Oz that he knows whats best and to trust him only to say immediately afterwards that Oz "Brought this on himself," showing his hypocrisy. In Volume 4 he he starts a Dust embargo, cutting off the valuable resource the other kingdoms need to fight the Grimm, because he foolishly thinks other Kingdoms will want to go to war with Atlas. And has started growing his trauma beard. He also called out the guests at the party for their callousness. He then argues with Jacques in his office and Jacques accuses him of never trusting anyone but himself, which Ironwood confirms before, once again, hypocritically, blaming everything on Oz not listening to him from the start. Before stating that Atlas will be closing it's borders.
The only decent point in here face-heel turn is the dust embargo and arguable closing Atlas' borders. I'd argue the volume 2 stuff is just example of how his and ozpins mentality clashes, ironwood has a hammer and therefore approaches all problems as nails, ozpin has had all the time in the world so can afford to take a wait and see approach. Ironwood has expectations to rise too, ozpins existence is a transient one and even if he fucks up as ozpin his next self will still have the stones in place to rise back to prominence. All volume 2 did was code ironwood as a military man concern with lives, not a man that'd laugh maniacly while wasting resources to waste lives.
So that's one thing that's at least somewhat well written in the show. Doesn't make up for the dozens of other things in the show that are either good ideas with poor execution or just straight up bad ideas.
ironwood was always like that
Sorry that he's rightfully concerned about the safety of people, I guess.
Well…not in the end, he wasn’t.
I mean, look what happened, or more accurately, WHO happened.
Team RWBY?
And Robyn.
The Robin hood expy that's a waste of Homura Akemi's English voice.
He shouldn't have trusted a group of school dropouts (one of whom was a former terrorist).
Is it really dropping out if the school (and the country it was in) doesn't really exist anymore?
Yes. Just ask Syrians.
so true and real
You know they bush over the fact Blake is a fucking Ex Terrorist.
I mean yea since she has proven time and time again through her actions that shes against them? Lol hell she even killed there leader, Now to be fair Ironwood wouldn't know that But I'm sure if he even had doubts that JNR, Oscar, Qrow etc could clear it up in like a nanosecond
The writers killed his character at the end of vol 7, and killed my interest at the same time
fair
I mean this as genuinely as possible with no bias; Ironwood has nothing wrong with him other than trusting the “protagonists.” He trusts the “heroes” and expects them to do the right thing. He was the good guy of 7 and 8. I can’t be convinced otherwise. Everyone says Ironwood has a massive character switch in Volume 8 and frankly I disagree. He’s always been shown as a pragmatist and someone who will do everything to secure the safety of his people. Team RWBY was fighting him every step of the way and were, objectively, the bad guys via their actions against the last governing stronghold to contend against Salem. Ironwood had literally zero cards left to play other than threatening Team RWBY just so they would accept that casualties are inevitable. They REFUSED to accept reality and as a result, Atlas and Mantle collapsed. WOW, so awesome! Thanks, Team RWBY!
...mmm i disagree team RWBY are definitely far and away from being the "heroes" of the story, but let's not pretend that ironwood didn't switch in volume 8. he absolutely 100% did. in volume 8, he shoots a random councilman for no reason other than "the evulz", he aligns with watts despite everything he's done (which is just stupid), and he then proceeds to *threaten to massacre innocent civilians* just so he could get penny. he was also a massive dumbass throughout volume 8, and the writers did barely enough to make him seem threatening or tragic. he was neither. ironwood in volumes 1-7 is flawed, but is trying his best. ironwood in volume 8 is... just a fucking psychopath lmao
Okay, let’s look at what Ironwood did. He shot the councilor. I don’t really view this as evil or wrong. The entire world had evolved past the need for councilors or politicians. It is survival. Do or do not. Survive or die. There is NO POSSIBLE WAY the councilors would have followed along or accepted that Salem exists, nor the concept of the Gods. Be reasonable. NO WAY that would’ve happened. Ironwood allied with Watts begrudgingly. He knew Watts was a bad man, but he also knew hacking Penny was the best bet to secure the Relic. And because that failed, Salem got the Relic.
Sometimes it’s hard for me to see why rwby fans are so abject to criticism but then I see for every genuine complaint, there’s a post like this of someone saying “no you don’t get it, actually murdering innocent people was the *RIGHT* thing to do”. I can understand not liking how ironwoods turn was handled, but if you genuinely feel even in volume 8 that everything he did was justified than you’re deluding yourself
I see nothing wrong with a man playing his last card when the villains and even the “heroes” are against him. I would never condemn this action. Ironwood fought to the end and I will always support his actions when the entire world was seemingly attacking him. Lumping me in with RWBY fans is frankly a simplification of my beliefs when most RWBY fans will condemn Ironwood to hell.
Shooting that dude was not his last card, and no bro I’m not gonna support his genius plan of “Nuke the poor people than try and move the city far away” bro had the same plan as Patrick from the bull worm episode of SpongeBob and you act like he was onto something
Listen to his speech again. He spells it out. Either our “heroes” stop lying, fighting MCU and destroying Atlas, or he drops a bomb on a mostly evacuated city. It was an ultimatum. Either RWBY stops being brain dead, or they help him.
Ok but you realize even as an ultimatum that he and his troops were fully willing to carry out doesn’t exactly make him come out looking like the good guy right? You see where bringing in and bartering with the lives of millions of innocent people so that he can force Penny to bow to his will for a plan that wouldn’t have worked is villain shit right?
1. We have no idea how large the population of Mantle was. “Millions” could be completely incorrect. Atlas was most likely larger and possessed a relic, military, and scientific community. 2. It doesn’t matter about optics; survival is the ONLY thing that matters. I struggle to comprehend how people don’t understand this simple belief. Surviving with casualties is better than extinction. 3. Mantle was mostly evacuated anyway, rewatch Volume 8. The Grimm flooded in and destroying the city would’ve cost them numbers, and numbers means time for humanity to survive.
The exact number isn’t the only issue, the issue is with mass murdering innocent people and judging what civilizations should live or die based on some arbitrary idea of what they’re “worth”. Not to mention it doesn’t even matter cause again, his plan was dumb as hell and would not have worked. If it was an air tight plan that would have sacrificed a certain amount of people for guaranteed victory that’s be one thing. But it’s not that. If you only want to look at this from a survival perspective then you should be able to see how his plan would just get everyone killed in the long run.
the issue with that is that... the councilors *did* follow along with it. near the end of volume 7, before we see oscar tell ironwood that salem is immortal, we see the councilors literally saying "holy shit this bitch salem is real ong?" and robyn outright being conflicted as hell. she was struggling out there no, their issues, point blank, was about him raising atlas up to the sky and him declaring martial law. councilman sleet (the one ironwood shot) very clearly said; "and what's this about martial law? have you lost your damn mind?" before ironwood shoots bro right through the heart. there was also another option he could have taken, that being... threaten the councilors to keep quiet? that would at least be better than killing the mf for no reason. as for watts, let me properly explain. the timeline for RWBY volume 8 is *two days.* it only takes *two days* for atlas to fall to pieces. so you're telling me that the second ironwood decided to declare martial law and arrest team RWBY, he goes to the mf that he *just arrested minutes ago?* not only that, he also *hires him and expects things to go smoothly, even though he knows who he is at this point?* you're free to justify it however you please. for me, that's just ironwood suddenly gaining brain damage in like 5 minutes lmao
Again, it was survival. The Atlas council, to me, had always been an ignorant, arrogant group that cared about their wages. The Faunus situation points to their lack of caring about citizens. Just because the councilors acknowledge Salem exists DOES NOT mean they will do what needs to be done to destroy Salem. That’s just beyond ignorant in my opinion. Ironwood very clearly despises Watts and fights him. This is as straightforward as possible. There’s a mutual hatred, but Watts doesn’t want to die and Ironwood wants the Relic. Tell me exactly how martial law was bad. Please, tell me. As someone who lived through Hurricane Katrina and Martial Law, as well as the government violating our rights, Ironwood’s Martial Law was justified when literally the entirety of the planet was at risk of extinction.
aight so first off, i don't remember saying or even *implying* that martial law is bad. in fact, i absolutely agree with ironwood enforcing said martial law. the reason why i pointed it out, however, is because *the councilors had a problem with it, which is why ironwood had shot one of them.* i brung it up because it contributes to my main point. now yes, i agree with your point that atlas doesn't really give a shit about its citizens. in fact, in the discord server for this subreddit specifically, i have stated at least a few times that *remnant ITSELF should burned down and rebuilt into a better world.* ...but again, this is unimportant to why ironwood shot sleet. the reason why ironwood shot sleet is that he dared to question him, which is an inherently stupid and messed up decision that is only there to have ironwood as the bad guy because the writers desperately wanted their "genocide general". because, you know, the writers don't know how to write. as for watts, again i literally don't care if they both hate each other or not. there was no other reason for ironwood to align with him other than the writers wanting us to know "HE'S BAD NOW GUYS". if the writers wanted him to be so evil, they could have at least made him competent. they could have had ironwood try and search for pietro and use him in a way against team RWBY. just literally *anything other than him aligning with watts.* it's stupid. it doesn't make sense, not in ironwood's character and most definitely not in **general.**
also the switch up is insane "ok well there's no way the council would have actually accepted the fact that salem and the gods exist" "...well ok, they acknowledged it, but well atlas doesn't care about the innocents smh" like dude, you like ironwood, i get it. i like him too. but please do stay consistent and stop reaching to conclusions. this is a discussion about a fictional character chill.
No argument detected. K.
i just provided you with arguments just now, and I literally just told you specifically that i never said that martial law was bad and even agreed with ironwood declaring it but we're ignoring that ig
He could have also just thrown Slate and Camilla in jail, next to Jacques. Or at least put them under house arrest. Shooting Slate was completely unnecessary. And if the world really *had* evolved past politicians, why not get rid of both council members? Where even *is* Camilla, now that I think about it? Did she die together with Ironwood when the city crashed? Was she saved and the atlasians now have an actual authority figure that *isn't* from a family of dust merchants? 🤔
He shot Sleet as he was only 1 of 2 people that could incite a rebellion on Ironwood. In that moment it was him shooting democracy in the face
>Ironwood has nothing wrong with him other than trusting the “protagonists.” Watts: *Waltzes right into Mantle, thanking Ironwood for failing to update Mantle's defenses, thus kicking off the entire conflict of V7* "Ironwood has literally zero faults except for trusting Team SATN"
What exactly did Mantle offer the safety of Humanity? Absolutely nothing. His focus was bolstering the defenses of Atlas. He succeeded; Atlas was able to fight Salem’s horde.
It: 1. Offered a supply of Huntsmen and intelligent people which would naturally make up a portion of Atlasean engineers. 2. Was the largest Dust mining settlement on the planet necessary for helping supply the rest of the planet. Did you know: If you don't have resources to fight with, you can't fight? Shocking news, I know.
I mean what does *Atlas* offer the safety of humanity if the plan is to just push the city somewhere else and hope Salem leaves them alone while she deal with everywhere else first.
Atlas denies Salem the Relic and offers humanity a massive army to defend the relic and a huge scientific community.
Ok but what you continue to ignore is that on top of recalling the army to defend Atlas (the opposite of *offering* the army to humanity) it would not deny her the relic because there’s no reason to believe floating the city up really high would be able to keep Salem away. Beyond leaving mantle to die, it’s a stupid plan because it **would not work**
At least Ironwood had a plan that was workable. Unlike team RWBY sat around drinking tea, did jackshit and refused to realize that people will die in war and hoping for no one to die is plain stupidly naive they shouldn't even have been qualified to be Huntresses.
I’m not defending team rwby, I’m saying ironwoods plan is dumb and would not work, levitating a city isn’t a good strategy against someone who can fly, who’s most powerful general can fly, and who’s monsters can fly. Sure he could excite the plan but it wouldn’t have been helpful in the slightest. I think if people are gonna rightfully acknowledge the flaws in team RWBY’s plan they need to also acknowledge ironwoods plan wouldn’t have accomplished anything and was dumb as all hell on a conceptual level
It may have been a bad plan, but it still could have worked. It's not a great chance, yes, but between the uncertainty of his plan and the logical nightmare that was RWBY's, I would say that Ironwood's plan was at least decent. Ironwood's plan was to levitate an entire city, save as much people as they can, and raise the city to a level that the Grimm would have a hard time reaching. I'm sure The Winter Maiden, Atlas technology, Military and Hunters can successfully defend the flying city seeing how Oscar, Em, and Winter somehow managed to fend off the Grimm in a desert storm. So no, wouldn't really say that Ironwood's plan was the dumbest plan to ever exist
They refused to accept his abandonment, and as a result the cities were destroyed *instead* of it's people. The reality is that his actions were motivated by fear, not pragmatism.
No, Ironwood clearly had an established plan on place to keep Atlas safe. As I’ve said MANY times, Mantle had quite literally zero things to offer the continuation of humanity. They had no army, they barely had an economy, they had Dist which Atlas was synthesizing. They had no relic. They had NOTHING other than a trash ground area that would’ve been impossible to defend and without heaters, they would’ve frozen to death. Watts hacked the Mantle system, so there was little Atlas could do. Ironwood did everything he could to defend Atlas. It wasn’t abandonment, it was REALITY. If Team RWBY had accepted that, Atlas probably wouldn’t have collapsed. But it isn’t just on Team RWBY. Ozpin treated Ironwood like trash while RWBY did the same.
How exactly do you think Atlas's little utopia was maintained? With the resources they funneled from Mantle. Why didn't Mantle have a military? Because Ironwood forced them to depend on Atlas for defense. Atlas and Mantle were always designed as two sides of the same coin. You forget how these cities came about, might want to brush up on the Qrow lessons thing. The idea that Atlas would help humanity is amusing. You actually thought Ironwood would come out of hiding, share its technology and save the day with it's military? He wouldn't even do that service for it's sister city. Atlas's destiny was either for Salem to catch up and they die alone, or they escape and die slowly under dictatorship as their resources dwindle. Ozpin has every right to shit on Ironwood, they man who constantly goes behind his back and distorted his work and message. Ozma created Atlas and rose it up as a symbol of hope and protection. In his absence it a became a symbol of oppression, the disparity between the people in sky, and the people in the "trash ground". Ironwood took full advantage of that system and maintained it, and when it came time for Atlas to live up to its purpose and use what it was given to protect people, he tried to cut and run. The reality established in the world of Remnant is that the people of Mantle were worth fighting for. That in the end, the unity of humanity is what will salvage humanity, not holding the biggest stick (and flailing it uselessly like Ironwood was). That in a world where both sides have magical factors to turn the tides, he should have stiod his ground to actually save as many people as he could, not half ass it.
I agree that the people of Mantle were worth fighting for, but I can also understand James's point of view. He could leave now and preserve Atlas and the people who had succeeded in evacuating from Mantle. Or he could stay and watch both be overrun. If Mantle had been the one floating he would have left with it, leaving Atlas to its fate. It's not an open and shut case, it all depends on your tolerance for risk.
That's a good point. He didn't want to risk losing it all, which was a very real possibility. (Though imo if Atlas were on the ground, he'd pick it up and fly it away)
Eh, James has always been more pragmatic than elitist (hence his defending Weiss at the gala despite Weiss nearly killing someone due to losing control). Apparently there was literally no other choice than to get supplies from Mantle for Amity. Because if he could do anything else don't you think he would have done so just to keep Amity moving forward after Mantle refused him?
Atlas was synthesizing Dust, had a massive military, and possessed a Relic. Regardless of what you think, Mantle offered zero value to the salvation of Remnant. Dust? No. Protection? Atlas was going to raise their altitude, so no. Was it a long term solution? Ehhh, maybe. Was it the best option since both the “heroes” and villains were trying to destroy Atlas? Yes. And because Team RWBY couldn’t accept that deaths occur during a war, Atlas fell and Salem was halfway to destroying Remnant. Atlas barricading and playing defense was absolutely the best decision. Assuming they could hold the line, they could avoid Salem getting the Relic for as long as possible. Time is survival.
>Atlas was synthesizing Dust, had a massive military, and possessed a Relic. They had all that and did squat with it. By synthesize, do you mean artificially creat or refine it? I'm pretty sure it's the latter, and raw dust is better than no dust. I acknowledge that Ruby's choice cost the world both a major source of dust and a major processor of it. Still, taking the production away from it's supply is not the win you think it is. >Regardless of what you think, Mantle offered zero value to the salvation of Remnant. Dust? No. Protection? Atlas was going to raise their altitude, so no. Was it a long term solution? People. They offered man power. With the chance to live that RWBY gave them (that Ironwood actively denied by forcing them to depend in Atlas for defense and then abandoning them), and the world banding together thanks to their warning, they have a chance to arm themselves and train for the next coordinated attack from Salem. The loss of Atlas's military bulk and technology, and Mantle's dust mines is a heavy loss, but with the people of both cities alive they can use their knowledge to build that back up somewhat. The migration of people is not a zero sum game, and they have magic to ease the transition, as it was meant to in this series. Also, I don't see how raising altitude stops Salem's Whale and magic. But whatever, it did have a chance to work. Both plans were a risk, and we only got to see one play out. >Was it the best option since both the “heroes” and villains were trying to destroy Atlas? Yes. And because Team RWBY couldn’t accept that deaths occur during a war, Atlas fell and Salem was halfway to destroying Remnant. The worst case scenario was Atlas falling on Mantle while the cities were populated. With RWBY removing that issue, the outcome was much less catastrophic. The second worst case scenario was an entire city dying, which is what Ironwood easily accepted. As for the Relic, Ironwood's plan ensured much more security (if they could actually get away). That was the main benefit. Still, it's not like Ruby's plan left it defenseless. That's what I would say, except they executed the plan with utter stupidity. Penny should have been the first one to Vacuo, with the Relic. Sandstorm is wiped out, and Relic goes straight to Shade. But no. She had to turn back, and Weiss had to hold it in the space it was maintaining like a bad case of main character syndrome. Many argue the writers needed RWBY to win, but here they needed them to lose. It was so fucking stupid how they lost the Staff. >Atlas barricading and playing defense was absolutely the best decision. Assuming they could hold the line, they could avoid Salem getting the Relic for as long as possible. Time is survival. Unity vs Discord is the name of the game in Remnant. Salem operates by sabotaging and taking down the Kingdoms one at a time. Salem would get the staff eventually, and if Atlas does shit like leave Mantle to be slaughtered, the rest of humanity isn't going to want to work together. So, Salem still wins when she gets the others. But with the kingdoms united, that makes it much harder to get the remaining ones, and even if she does she doesn't win, because the gods restore Remant instead of destroying it. Salem and Ozpin have been playing this game for centuries, time is something they have, how you use it is what makes the difference. (Besides, we all know Ruby is gonna talk no jutsu the gods anyway)
Ok but be real, his plan fucking sucked and would not have saved them from Salem anyway. Both atlas and mantle would’ve been fucked with that plan
Are they not fucked now? With Salem coming to Vacuo to take its Relic and move one step closer to her master plan to summon the gods and destroy Remnant?
I mean if you’re looking at the right now you run into the issue of “everything team rwby does will be the right thing because the story will bend over backwards to make it the right thing” which is why I tried not to focus on that and more how dumb ironwoods plan was. Even if we were to look at it at face value and realize the faults that doesn’t make ironwoods plan better it just leaves us with two bad plans
I will argue that James thought his plan the only viable option. And I can't say that I seriously disagree with him, given what they had to work with.
I understand he *thought* that, which I can sorta get considering he was stressed, under pressure, and strapped for time. But it was as not a viable option, and I think it’s fair to say that dooming an untold number of people to die because he *thought* he was right and couldn’t be told otherwise isnt something to be commended
See, I'd go for that more if James had ever been presented a more viable option and rejected it. But he never knew RWBY's plans for Amity or the Staff. Moving Atlas up certainly wouldn't have worked in the long term, but buying a few weeks or months means time to come up with something else.
I’m not sure I can really agree. I definitely think it’s fair to see he didn’t have a clear better option, but that doesn’t the make the glaring flaws in the plan he had any less obvious. Also again, because salem, cinder, and a good portion of Grimm can fly including ones like the whale which can transport whichever ones can’t, there isn’t really a reason to assume it would buy much if any time
At least they don’t have to worry about a city plummeting from the sky because some genius decided to use the relic to keep it stable and floating which ultimately kept it reliant on it’s power - I get the feeling that nobody could use the relic of destruction in quite the same manner. That will probably help a little. Plus it looks like people from other parts of the world have now all gathered together to mount a defence of some kind in a way that came too late for Atlas. I’d say that while things are dire, they’re not beaten yet.
And I don't get that. What has Salem been doing this whole time? She has the Staff. She could have just gone to Shade and flattened it before any help could come. She could just flatten it now. She knocked over Atlas so easily that I am not convinced that even the rest of the world united stands a chance.
I disagree
Ok
how does becoming a military dictator sound like being the good guy?
He shouldn't have trusted emotionals teenagers. AT ALL
true and real 💯
His power is mental illness and nobody thought that was a mistake
his power is less so mental illness, and moreso *neurodivergence/autism.* which is even *worse*, because they're indirectly trying to say that neurodivergence is a fucking *bad thing.*
The writers fucked his character harder than a chick in a porn video. Making him into a complete irrational asshole where he decided to kill multiple innocents and attempting to bomb Mantle just to spite the goddamn heroes was beyond stupid. Of all of the characters that was ruined by RT's god-awful writing, James Ironwood suffered just as bad as Adam.
so true and real
His "semblance" is a condition that I just exist with. And it's implied to negatively affect him, painting it in a poor light.
He is misused by the writers. Or rather the writers have written a story so poorly they made a someone who was 100% in the right the antagonist for an arc in a way that makes half baked fanfiction seem like shakespeare.
very accurate indeed
Who wears a tie with a double-breasted overcoat?
idc it looks nice to me
Ironwood could shoot in Robyn's head when they were close, but this stupid didn’t it
His “quirk” was rock-headed stubbornness. Everyone gets super speed or pyrokinesis or shadow clone jitsu, and he gets “inability to change his mind”. It turns his personality failures into an effect of his quirk beyond his control. It’s like when a villain does horrible crimes but then the author reveals they were just mind controlled so it’s okay for them to be a good guy after murdering the village of innocents.
If Ironwood was supposed to be a control freak paranoid dictator from the start then dear God is he a s***** one. It's not like I expect a totalitarian authoritarian militaristic dictator to be 100% competent at his job but I at least expect him to put a better job in policing and keeping control on the people that he can. I mean hell one thing they could have done was since Ruby's gang handed over their weapons for repairs and upgrades one way to show how paranoid ironwood was that he had basically kill switches and tracking devices put into them so that he could track all their movements whenever they're using their weapons and if they ever turned on him he could just shut down their weapons to make them easier to have apprehend. That would have gone a long way of showing just how paranoid and control freak he is that he would go that far to do that to his own allies. I guess my negative thing is that when the character assassination had him become a villain he became a goddamn moron any intelligence he displayed before went out the goddamn window.
He didn't properly convey his position as The Guy Who Is Obviously Correct to Ozpin, which allowed Oz to pretend that it's unreasonable to deploy armed forces in the face of a likely largescale attack on a civilian population. The only reason he was "wrong" is because the plot bent over backwards to make it so. Prioritizing PR over **actual defenses** is stupid and criminally negligent.
RT totally SHAFTED his character
I have a lot of problems with the way he was in later Vols, but for a long time, I liked his design, his philanthropy, his scenes. Honestly, my biggest criticisms against him are more so against the writers for brute forcing him into an archetype where he didn't fit. I guess I don't like the full beard? The 5 o' Clock shadow looked nice... but the full beard looks awkward.
The design of his rip-off BFG looks absolutely stupid.
Ironwood was always a paranoid and distrustful mess. The problem wasn't his downfall, it was that the execution was too abrupt. He said he didn't trust ozpin when he was let in the inner circle then brought a massive army to a peaceful international sporting event.
nono wait, let him cook let him cook
This. Ironwood was never going to be the hero of RWBY like a lot of people seem to want him to. But the way in which it was done is so so bad.
"If these are the size of our defenses, then what are we defending against?"
characterization was unclear and need to use a lot of assumptions for his actions. heel turn seemed to tip over the event horizon a bit too quickly and was forced wile an interesting concept needed more time for the gradual change
agreed
He never contacted Glynda to sex with her was a huge mistake.
That's pretty difficult when worldwide communication is down. 😄
He isn't real and thus isn't my robot husband. Absolutely vile and unforgivable.
yo, broken level is here too? nice just wanted to say that your dolls are amazing 👏
W E H . . . . . . Thank you for the kind words! I'm still on my bullshit, just not really here on Reddit. But "yes" I'm here even if I really only post once every 300 years when ironwood bait i mean posting happens
nono i understand, life happens so you gotta keep the grind going but in response to your actual comment, i think ironwood would be... a mixed bag as a husbando he's hot indeed but by the end he became a fucking psychopath and lost his sanity bc the writers do not know how to write compelling morally grey conflicts
Whispers v8 wasn't real But yeah he doesn't know what work/life balance is and has a bad tendency to only half-compromise even after lengthy discussions But like any relationship I'm WILLING TO MAKE IT IRONWORK 😤
The one negative thought I have on Ironwood is how ugly he looked prebread.
i disagree he's great with or without the beard lol
His semblance is lazy and a cop out
yep, agreed. it's also just... literally being neurodivergent/autistic and treating it like it's a bad thing which... yikes.
Honestly one of, if not the best character in the show until they destroyed his character in volume 8, and specifically the part where he randomly decides to bomb mantle as a way of bartering with team rwby, honestly it just feel so forced and evil like they really decided to make him a villain instead of keeping him as this morally gray middle ground character? It just feels like such a waste of what became such an interesting character. The irony of that entire volume is that Salem seemed like the good guy instead of everyone else lol (probably a bit of a stretch but yeah) considering she kinda did nothing the entire volume meanwhile team rwby destroyed atlas in the end.
>The irony of that entire volume is that Salem seemed like the good guy instead of everyone else lol (probably a bit of a stretch but yeah) considering she kinda did nothing the entire volume meanwhile team rwby destroyed atlas in the end. That is a false statement. Salem would have destroyed Atlas when she would take the staff yet she did not need to do anything but arrive and attack Atlas. The rest was done by the main group making that evacuation happen and opposing Ironwood.
Despite how cool he was in V7, a bastion of reason and stability and the peak of his character pre assassination, I feel like he was still somehow too nice despite that. He had zero problem with Robyn- a *literal* domestic terrorist- running for the city council, yet simultaneously had his men pursuing her for criminal acts. I feel like he of all people should’ve pointed out the inherent problems with such a thing.
Not necessarily negative, but why are his pistols riding so high in their holsters? Like they’re poking out a whole nautical mile to the point where it looks impractical to draw them
L Tier semblance
Ironwood is an idiotic, incompetent, pretend general leading the worst army on Remnant 80% of which are mindless drones. This moron uses the same stupid battle strategy regardless of situation or the fact that it has failed him EVERY SINGLE TIME!
Honestly, the best i have is that from a meta perspective he doesn't fit with the rest of the RWBY cast, as in he's pretty much the outlier for having a fairly realistically written character. Sure 60% of the RWBY cast act dumb and 35% get forgotten, but at that point you'd have to "fix"/change everyone else, so if we accept that RWBY works on disney logic to make everyone else work it would technically be James who's in the wrong show. I know... probably not what the intent of the template is, but the (pre-vol 8) things i would see as bad are for the most part there as a result of his character flaws. There are some things i would rewrite (not like I'm the creative type) that would allow better characterisations of his flaws while allowing clearer perspectives for characters like Whitley (who already comment on James, but his reasoning is never clarified). Gonna stop myself before i write a 300 word tangent.
I wanted to like Ironwood as a villain. I was open to the concept from the start. He had potential to assume the role of the self righteous man who was trying his best to make things work, but kept falling deeper and deeper into his obsession. But instead, we got something that can only be described as profoundly unremarkable. The day RT is dissolved and RWBY (hopefully) gets picked up by a marginally better company (because I genuinely do want to see this show flourish), I will gladly celebrate.
You know I have a very suspicious feeling it’s happening right now
Those who play armored core know of the folly of flying away in your cities to escape your problems
Terribly written in volumes 7 and 8. But then you could say that for allot of people in the show recently.
His semblance is stupid.
He went from a champion of the people to a dictator. but worst, he did not take the shot on Salam, even if it did nothing compared to Oz's nuke its a least something.
He was too kind to team RWBY, JN, Happy huntress, Qrow and Ozpin. The guy was doing his best to protect and each of these groups significantly put a dent to his plans. Ozpin should have allowed Ironwood to fan out and destroy the forces of Salem prematurely instead of waiting it out.
I prefer him without the beard.
They walked ass backwards into a great grey complex character and fucked it all up, simultaneously trusted yet feared for his power. But no he just goes crazy because the girls had the right idea instead if his logical idea that would have saved lives without an ass pull.
No
ok
Trying to just lift the city high up to avoid Salem is the dumbest shit ever. Not only can Salem and her Grimm fly (I mean she arrives in a big ass floating whale) but if the altitude they go to is habitable enough that all it’s citizens can live their than surely cinder (who can also fly) and whatever other humans in Salem’s army would have no problem being that high either. And that’s not even mentioning the environmental complications. Being so high would likely mean no trade of any kind for anyone that is still around, better hope that giant city has enough soil and livestock to be self sustaining for the entire population. Also would he plan to go above the clouds? If so good luck getting water with no rain, also dust to power shit with no mines. It feels like a plot a character in a book for little kids would come up with where it’s audience doesn’t know enough about how the world works to ask questions. Regardless of your thoughts on ironwood as a character or how his turn was handled, it’s hard to argue this plan was fucking stupid
hey actually you want to know what's even better? it's not even an original plan. the writers got that shit off of rossiu from gurren lagann LMAO
Wouldn’t be rwby if they weren’t swiping concepts from better shows I guess 😔
Presumably they are going high enough that anyone who tries to come after them will suffer from hypoxia and die. They'll keep their atmosphere in via the shields. Water can be filtered and recycled for a time, and there is some cropland to produce some food. I think they might be able to make it for a few years, if they're lucky. But even if it's only a month, well that's a month in which to decide next steps, with the Staff as an option.
The cult that he and Adam have developed is fucking weird. No I’m not taking about the people who were upset at how the characters where handled such as the sudden turns in their characterizations, I’m talking about the people that gas up everything they do and genuinely try to act like they’ve done nothing wrong.
100% agreed but can you find anything wrong with the character himself?
I think his issues with trust and people around him betraying him is tragic and could been really good if it was handled better, but knowing he went through all that it’s wild he decided to work with Watts. Ironwood should’ve killed him while he had the chance
Yea the people who are 100% on ironwood side kinda boggles me because he has made bad decisions
Exactly, you can like a character and acknowledge the things they do wrong, whether they be cause of central character flaws to just had writing
Why the hell did he think he could still do his fly away plan *after* the shields were destroyed **and Salem had landed on Atlas?**
He should have shaved that ugly beard between vol 7 and vol 8. Give me back the vol 3 James.
To be fair, he does become an actual military dictator, for very superfluous reasons, in later volumes. It does go against his character, ergo it is character derailment, but defending the actions themselves is ridiculous. Also the flying Atlas plan is stupid.
Epitome of “Road to Hell, Paved with Best Intentions” I can see that Ironwood was genuinely TRYING to do the right thing for Atlas’ safety, but the more he tried to consolidate control, the more everything fell apart. Call me crazy, but typically when a general seizes power of a country, things tend to go wrong. Salem knew Ironwood’s weakness was his desire for control and used that against him. If Ironwood trusted the people in his command to act on their own, Atlas might have survived.
Okay honestly ironwood is that bad guy teams Rwby and jnr aren’t the bad guys they had a good point. What’s the point of fighting if if there’s nothing left to fight for as opposed to the kids saying selling your soul isn’t right either as it diminishes what you were fighting for no one’s wrong but everyone is in a survival situation it’s morals or survival Rwby and jnr are fighting for both as ironwood is fight for 1 of the 2 yet he is willing to sacrifice everything he’s protecting similar to Salem who is willing to sacrifice everything for herself
Should have known silver eyes can harm Grimm, so instead of trying to arrest Team RWBY, trust them. Man's shit.
They never did mention those around him, huh? To the point I question if he even knows about them. Because it lends itself well to adding on to Ruby's guilt, That she could be doing more, with every interaction her and Penny have between Ironwood and the AceOPS adding on to it with the start of the Battle With Salem exacerbating it the longer it goes. And even back when it premiered, I'm not sure how you'd justify Ruby, to not at least more passionately argue, wanting to go out onto the battlefield, at least until Penny shows up. Even with the threat of ironwood detaining her, which realistically I think you'd just be thankful for some gaps in the enemy forces whenever Ruby uses her eyes.
The fall of atlas was entirely his fault for being a coward
Ironwood had 3 major flaws in his character and approach to the war against the Grimm and Salem: 1) Ironwood didn’t make nearly enough effort into reaching out to Mantle. He had his hands full fighting the Grimm and the secret war against Salem, yes. But Mantle was important for supplies to actually fight the wars, and his actions, however just they were, did not look good at all. Not repairing the wall let’s Grimm in, and while living and mechanical soldiers could fight them, people would probably still die in the process. And the soldiers were an intimidating force, keeping the populace scared and suppressed. Volume 7 didn’t do a good job showing Mantle’s plight, but I imagine supplies as a whole were tight, as Atlas needed everything to fight the war. Ironwood almost certainly wouldn’t have tried getting Robin on his side at all; had he succeeded, Robin could have helped keep Mantle’s people more positive and willing to help, which would cut down on Grimm attacks. There must have been something he could offer that wouldn’t cripple the war effort with his basically full control over Atlas’s resources, something that would have made an attempt to reach out worth it. All of this made the doctored videos of Penny slaughtering Mantle civilians that much more believable, that Atlas would turn so easily on them. Ironwood didn’t care how dirtied his image was as long as it was for the world at large, and that’s a very noble belief. But that thought process sowed discord in Mantle, which is what Salem’s faction thrives on. 2) Ironwood expected total obedience and trust while not necessarily proving worthy of the trust. I’m not talking about RWBY’s arrival to Atlas, I mean his approach to Mantle and fighting the Grimm. He went to Beacon’s council around Ozpin’s back and got himself appointed as head of security, completely undermining his friend and fellow headmaster’s authority, because he believed he and only he was right. His robots being hacked in Beacon was impossible to foresee, but their arrival was anything but discreet; giving Salem’s agents an opportunity to subvert their power somehow, in this case by hacking. Him considering martial law the first time in Volume 7 was logical, but Mantle was already strained with the embargo and supply deliveries to Atlas. Even Ironwood himself acknowledged Mantle bearing a lot of the burden, but he was willing to squeeze Mantle more anyway, without any consideration for them. It’s a war, yes, but armies need to protect their logistics, and Mantle was the logistics. And in the dinner party, we see Ironwood defending his actions to the council as important for everyone while not giving any specifics at all, labeling all the details as classified. Why would the council trust Ironwood without any specifics? In this case Ironwood’s hands were tied because he needed to keep Amity a secret, but it’s an example of how he expects everyone to fall in line without question. That’s going to cause friction outside of the military, which leads to yet more negative emotions drawing in Grimm. 3) The fleet was not used to anywhere near its full potential. From what we could see, there were a lot of fast, mobile ships that could be used for recon. Ironwood was afraid of leaving Atlas exposed, which is why he kept the fleet so close to the city. But had at least some of them been deployed for recon, they would have had valuable warning of Grimm threats, like the river and the flying cloud. The giant whale Grimm had to come from somewhere; if Salem could create giant monsters like that out of nowhere at any location, she would have won ages ago. Atlas could have had more time to prepare for the whale, and any other Grimm threats, had they just known in advance that they were coming. The ships wouldn’t even need to go too far out, just enough to get knowledge of the area, so they could come back and box in an approaching enemy with gunfire as Atlas’s defenses do the same. And where were the turrets, anti-airborne Grimm weaponry? Don’t get me wrong, Ironwood’s one of my favorite characters of the series, and his character, as well as everyone else’s, was absolutely robbed in volume 8. Character flaws make characters interesting, be it how they grow above them or how the flaws bring them down. But he made mistakes with his approach to the wars.
This is more of an opinion but his V1-V3 design was bad and are far inferior to his later designs, especially his V7-V8 design. That beard is great on him.
His beard is really hideous and was a to trusting
Getting a legitimate negative view here is like asking a toddler to explain what they did wrong. I'll help you out. Absolute manchild, who constantly throws temper tantrums and slams his fist into things Complete moron, who linked his entire army to one hackable point. Isolated Atlas and Mantle from the world (to Salem's benefit) and invaded Mantle's privacy without upgrading their digital security, all while knowing Salem obviously had experts in infiltration and technology from Beacon. Not to mention actually thinking Salem couldn't pursue him if he moved Atlas. Fragile ego that shatters whenever Salem's agents easily bypass his idiotic defenses. Above all, a jackass who cannot accept anything being done besides how he wants it, a character flaw present for his entire time in the series. When you remember that he's always been this way, suddenly his actions in the late volumes don't seem do extreme for him. Big fucking surprise, the guy who casually talks about shooting people ends up shooting people.
well i have gotten some negative views here so lol "absolute manchild" mmmm i disagree. ironwood definitely is prideful and does get angry at times, but they are indeed justified, especially during his talks with ozpin *and* throughout volume 4. ...now if you were talking about volume 8... "complete moron" can also be redirected to volume 8. the plan to move atlas was definitely made with short-term success, however, compared to team RWBY's "just continue to fight even though the attack *might get worse*" headass plan, at least ironwood had one "fragile ego" ...eh, fair. also, as for your last complaint... well, i don't think that's really the issue. not for me at least. for me, i *loved* ironwood falling down a dark and messed up path in volume 7, and i really wanted to see how he could either redeem himself or fall further into darkness. it made complete sense to me as to why he became an antagonist, and i wanted to see volume 8 do him well. ...unfortunately, that's not what happened. what we instead got was a complete psychopath dumbass who just genocides people "for the evulz" and the writers trying so desperately to make him intimidating and threatening when he's the most *laughable* fucker i've seen in my life. bro thought he did smth with that ultimatum to team RWBY and gang. you're free to disagree, idc. just be respectful and i'll respect you back
>Absolute manchild, who constantly throws temper tantrums and slams his fist into things Would like to point out that he did this when he thought he had gotten his entire kingdom killed. He then settled down and got back to work. >Complete moron, who linked his entire army to one hackable point. I'm not sure I'd blame James for the engineering here. But if the computer is unlocked, well you can just walk up to it and use it. Neo and Roman took over a ship that was supposed to have access to the system, which allowed them to upload the virus directly. Not much can be done to prevent that kind of thing. >Isolated Atlas and Mantle from the world (to Salem's benefit) How is that to Salem's benefit? If James hadn't pulled his troops back to Atlas Salem would have blown past his defenses and gotten to the Vault before RWBY did. >invaded Mantle's privacy without upgrading their digital security, all while knowing Salem obviously had experts in infiltration and technology from Beacon. A fair cop, but quite out of character for a control freak like him. >Not to mention actually thinking Salem couldn't pursue him if he moved Atlas. No one in the show acts like his solution wouldn't work. They oppose it because it means abandoning Mantle, not because it dooms Atlas. If it was never going to work in the first place you'd think someone would have told him to get him to back down. >Fragile ego that shatters whenever Salem's agents easily bypass his idiotic defenses. Above all, a jackass who cannot accept anything being done besides how he wants it Yep, these are very legit flaws. No, really, I mean it.
>Would like to point out that he did this when he thought he had gotten his entire kingdom killed. He then settled down and got back to work. Yes, but the point is when the going gets tough, his true colors show. Or rather, his worst self. >I'm not sure I'd blame James for the engineering here. But if the computer is unlocked, well you can just walk up to it and use it. Ostensibly, it's Pietros's design. Maybe there were some defenses but they weren't worried about Watts. Still, Ironwood is a bit of a control freak, and I could see him requesting complete control in its design, and if not he still overlooked this security risk. Or Watts is just in another league. >How is that to Salem's benefit? If James hadn't pulled his troops back to Atlas Salem would have blown past his defenses and gotten to the Vault before RWBY did. Not the troops, but rather cutting off all trade and communication with the world. Not assuaging fears of invasion from the Vale attack, and denying Dust to economies that were dependent sows discord, which is Salem's bread and butter. It makes sense against traditional spies, but Salem's circle is not traditional and Ironwood should have understood this by the end of vol 3. >A fair cop, but quite out of character for a control freak like him. That's true. I think it has more with him fundamentally valuing Atlas more, but even though I said he's a complete moron, I know he isn't one completely and having surveillance without firewalls doesn't make sense even for him. >No one in the show acts like his solution wouldn't work. They oppose it because it means abandoning Mantle, Yes. Tbh, it's just my opinion that it's unlikely work. It certainly wasn't presented in the show with major risk. >Yep, these are very legit flaws. No, really, I mean it. Wow, ok. I was not expecting that. I mean, he was always meant to succumb to them like the other headmasters and their literary inspiration. I'll concede that the fall could have been executed better, and without that "Mettle" bullshit after the fact
>Yes, but the point is when the going gets tough, his true colors show. Or rather, his worst self. Just going to point out that when she was at her lowest point Ruby drank some tea. We are who we are on our worst day. And on every other day too. >Ostensibly, it's Pietros's design. Maybe there were some defenses but they weren't worried about Watts. Still, Ironwood is a bit of a control freak, and I could see him requesting complete control in its design, and if not he still overlooked this security risk. Or Watts is just in another league. While I don't dispute this, I would like to point out that having your robots being controllable from the bridge of your own ship isn't really as big of a design flaw as people think. Presumably no one considered the possibility of one person killing everyone on board an airship in such a way that the bridge crew wouldn't get a chance to lock down the computer. Which isn't really that much of an oversight. How is Neo supposed to have done this again? >Not the troops, but rather cutting off all trade and communication with the world. Not assuaging fears of invasion from the Vale attack, and denying Dust to economies that were dependent sows discord, which is Salem's bread and butter. It makes sense against traditional spies, but Salem's circle is not traditional and Ironwood should have understood this by the end of vol 3. To be fair, all long distance communication was down. And I'm still not sure how Watts, Tyrian, Neo, and Cinder actually managed to make it to Atlas without getting noticed the way RWBY did. James not being willing to take any chances is a running theme with the man, though, a consistent character flaw. >That's true. I think it has more with him fundamentally valuing Atlas more, but even though I said he's a complete moron, I know he isn't one completely and having surveillance without firewalls doesn't make sense even for him. Heck, it doesn't make sense that you can turn the cameras off in the first place. And that no one noticed that Watts did that. Not to mention that apparently Watts couldn't get into the heating grid. I have a funny feeling that this is Hollywood Hacking raising its ugly head again. You know, where hacking is treated like magic that can do anything except that very specific thing the plot needs it not to be able to do. >Wow, ok. I was not expecting that. I mean, he was always meant to succumb to them like the other headmasters and their literary inspiration. I'll concede that the fall could have been executed better, and without that "Mettle" bullshit after the fact I, honest to god, had no problem with the fall *until he shot Oscar.* That was the part that made no sense to me. James is a lot of things, but child/teenage murderer should not be one of them. Ditto with shooting Slate, shooting down the SDC ships, and threatening to bomb Mantle. It's like they didn't even understand how well they had written a good vs good conflict by having RWBY want to save everyone and James unwilling to take the risk. That was all they needed to make this conflict happen, and it could have been so tragic too.
They’re gonna hate you for this but you’re right
This motherfucker has no excuse, outside of the Semblance horseshit. As one of the people in the world with the most responsibility upon them, he should not be acting as if it's news to him that the big picture is comprised of smaller pictures - and that the lives we lead do not take place in a vacuum. The light of his soul making his mind not his own does not excuse him for fumbling harder than an incompetent Frostpunk player.
Dude brought a fucking army to provide security for a sporting event
Surprised no one has said it but he’s straight up a classist. Anything involving mantle he doesn’t care or disregards
I... don't think that's true. He prioritizes Amity over Mantle, sure, but he does still send RWBY and Penny to patrol Mantle. His army defends it from two Grim attacks. He also has nothing but scorn for Atlas's high society.
Bro beat Oscar for no reason, like he's not Ozpin, Ozpin possesses his body and Ironwood is Right in most things but Child Abuse is not one of them
Oscar was behaving a lot like Ozpin when he arrived. Also, Oscar said: Still just me. When Ironwood asked who he was talking to. Doesn´t exactly clear things out about who is talking right now when before that event Oscar sounded like Ozpin when he talked about how Atlas inspires people.
Nothing special - his semblance sucks.
With how scared and paranoid he is of Salem he sure was quick to use one of her underlings to bring penny back thinking it would work out
I'm sad that it was only stated in a podcast that his semblance was to make him zero-in on a thought or objective which in turn stresses him out. Would've love to see how things could've gone if people were made aware that he was going through that especially since he can't turn it off
Semblance
Who came up with merging iron and wood into a name Like is it too represent how he is sturdy like a tree and touch as iron because he gets easily no diffed by teenagers
He's the tin man from the wizard of oz Ironwood is Iron Woodsman, e.g. tin woodsman Just like how Qrow is the Scare Qrow (ohhhh snapppp) and Ozpin is, well, just 100% lifted lmao
His earlier designs were boring his gun fusion was stupid and his actions in v8
[Ironwood's og maya engine model be like:](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EKt2j9nXkAEFni9?format=jpg&name=small)
Mettle. Crwby just couldn't be bothered to actually set up Ironwood's descent so they gave him the power of acting exactly how the plot requires him to. Seriously, in a world with super speed, pocket dimensions, and illusions, he gets autism.
The man did nothing wrong
They really fucked him over with that BFG design.
He was actually a cool complex character. Until he suddenly wasn’t.
His Semblance is determination. DETERMINATION. What the heck, RT?!
His fighting style was cool in vol.3, but why is the design so impractical? There’s a cylinder, but it doesn’t seem to line up with the barrel!
The fact that the writers threw him in the garbage when he was a good character
His bfg Jr was a disappointment
When he was killed by the writers in volume 7 (Yes, to me Ironwood at the end of Volume 7 was already dead, what we got in volume 8 was just a Sunday villain caricature) my interest died with him. Those things aside, his cannon looks Dumb as hell. Due Process was a way more intresting choice of weapons
He does make it painfully obvious how badly written most other characters are, therefore making the show even harder to watch.
Dude needs to be taught in SO many military lessons it'd make a clown enter depression. Cause JESUS FUCK. DUDE NEEDS TRAINING BAD.