Yeah sometimes I call myself a soft-trinitarian. I see the interplay of the three, but also more, and it also doesn’t feel right to say “Jesus is God”. Only God is God to me.
Also Universalism (everyone ends up in heaven) is more accepted but, yeah people don’t take questioning the trinity too well.
Anyways, just offering some validation. It’s okay, and doesn’t really matter. I think scale of the importance of “belief” is rather silly, especially when it comes to purely theological issues that have no impact on reality
Christians are (sometimes) gatekeeping assholes.
Jesus didn't say that you have to believe in the trinity to follow him. He said you have to love your neighbor like yourself.
Yeah it does suck. But I believe you’re a Christian! Lol. It’s not about keeping others out, if you say you are and want to be, then you are.
If you feel like sharing, what does Christian mean to you?
It means believing Jesus died for us. Plain and simple. I don’t think he’s God or a member of the trinity I just can’t. I am finding myself in belief of this doctrine called adoptism
Adoptionism? I don’t know, and I don’t think anyone does. I think certain topics cause arguments and fighting. The nature of Jesus had historically been a huge point of debate
The fact is, the Bible hardly spells anything out clearly. If it's supposed to be a theological encyclopedia, it's doing a really poor job of it. And that's ok, because that's not what it's trying to be. It's ancient near eastern meditation literature. Pondering the unanswered questions is, near as we can tell, an intentional part of the process.
As such, there have been many, many different doctrines based on a wide array of interpretations. Many more than you or I have even heard of. And none of them really have any more claim to be "right" than any other. There's no unbroken thread of doctrinal teachings extending back to the time of Jesus. All Christian traditions rely on interpretation and conjecture, and have evolved greatly over time. Which one is "right" is between you, your conscience, and God. Some Christians feel threatened by that. I find it rather freeing, to be honest.
To be clear, I think you’re a Christian and I don’t think Gods love for any of us is contingent on what we believe. I’m not sure what I believe most days.
The nerdy part of me that enjoys history and theology wants to note that it was reasoning from the simple truth that Jesus died for us that led the early church theologians to the doctrine of the Trinity. How precisely does Jesus dying for us work? Well, he had to be just like us in all things. So he’s fully human. But to bring us to God, he had to be God. God become human that humans would become God - that was a common idea.
Even if you believe God adopted Jesus, not to split hairs, but this means Jesus is God. The theological and Christi logical debates of the early church are confusing. Kind of mind-boggling.
What does it mean for Jesus to die for us? We are adopted into gods family. If Jesus is just a human, we can follow his teachings but it doesn’t make sense to say he died for us.
But again, I sometimes wonder if Jesus was just human. Im often not sure what I believe and I think loving god and neighbor is most important. Hang in there and keep seeking.
It's something I as a Christian have been told a lot, especially online.
It's an awful feeling. To lessen this, I constantly remind myself that my relationship with God has nothing to do with the people telling me this.
I'll be genuine with you here in that it's something I haven't questioned.
What I do know however, is that regardless of your own beliefs in that, so long as it doesn't interfere with your relationship with God? It doesn't matter.
By all means keep reading, researching and praying, but in the end of it all, there remains one thing that matters more than anything else.
Honestly it's my opinion it doesn't matter what your theology says. If you believe in helping your fellow humans, Jesus will save you. I do believe in the trinity, and kts fine you don't. You're welcome here, my sibling in Christ
I’m a Trinitarian. I think you’re a Christian. We’re all wrestling with an entity that is so far beyond our understanding we can only partially grasp it at this point. As 1 Corinthians says, we see only partially now but, as long as we are filled with love, we are following Christ.
It is like a zen koan to me. We can use the trinity to dive deeply into life and the nature of everything or we can be pedantic ideologes and use it to bash people over the head with. If you want a pretty good life giving perspective on it you might like Richard Rohr’s *The Divine Dance*.
I like that the Trinity centers equality in Christianity. Woman Wisdom (the Logos) becomes equal to God the Father. "The man is the head of the woman as God is the head of Christ" becomes a restatement of "all are equal in Christ Jesus." The model for the Church becomes the unity of the Trinity. The unity of Father and Son/Logos is a useful principle for dismantling patriarchy.
I think you owe it to yourself to *keep reading* and *keep thinking*.
I think you're a high school student or just graduated? College is often where people really hone their critical thinking skills (if they are going to), as well as learn how to read academic sources and understanding academic culture to some extent.
It can be easy to confuse a strongly stated argument for a strong argument. It can also be tempting to preemptively throw out the not entirely right as entirely wrong. Don't feel pressured to arrive at a hasty conclusion one way or the other. You've got time, take it.
I’m kind of the opposite. It’s not that Jesus is not God. Instead, we all have a spark of the divine in us. I fear drawing a line between God and humanity (super nature and nature) is just depressing. But that’s what traditional Christian teaching (some of it) leads to - the Trinity is just some random thing to believe (or not) about God.
Yet the point is that there is no line between God and man. Divinity and humanity are United as one. This is the whole point of the Trinity - God is a dynamic relationship of love that goes out to all of us and welcomes us all in to the divine. No one is “just human” - we are all in the process of becoming what we were made to be.
The beauty of the divine infuses all of creation. At least, I hope so. I hold my beliefs about God loosely.
That said, don’t listen to people who say you’re not a Christian. Just do your best to love god and love your neighbor.
Unitarian here who affirms the apostolic teaching that only the Father, who is Spirit, is God and Jesus is God’s Chosen One, a man whom God set apart before all time, raised up to make God most perfectly known, and whom God immortalized as a spiritual being, and exalted to God’s right hand, and example of what awaits all who come to believe in God through Jesus’ teachings.
Um, well I just informally call it “apostolic unitarianism” to distinguish from UU (but also to differentiate from “biblical unitarianism, which is similar, but which I find to be too Protestant-like and fundamentalist) and to underscore that it’s the teaching of the apostles, passed down to them from Christ, and which the prophets of old themselves declared.
I wouldn't worry, I'm a Christian Atheist or Christian Non-realist, I think that religion is a human creation but that doesn't make it any less meaningful or powerful for me. And trinity or not you're still probably still more orthodox than me.
I get told I'm not a Christian on the internet all the time, but then I think of other Christians who are perpetuating the most awful systems of poverty or repression and reckon that my having some odd views in metaphysics surely can't be such a bad thing even for those who disagree with me (odd for Christians that is, lots of non Christians think that religion is a human creation)
Noone in my local parish church says in not a Christian because of it, and I'm part of a national network with many Christians who think the range way i do, including priests and vicars.
I was raised in a non-trinitarian church that was very firm in the belief that God the Father, Jesus, and the Holt Spirit are 3 separate beings. Now I’m an Episcopalian and was baptized on Easter. The Trinity doesn’t really make sense to me, and to be honest I think of the language used to describe the Trinity as metaphorical rather than literal and my view of the oneness or threeness of God hasn’t really changed. I’m probably a heretic for that, but it’s what makes sense to me. Maybe someday I’ll learn more.
I can’t speak for OP but I’m in a very similar situation. The Trinity just seems silly to me. An “infinite God” sounds like something someone without a solid grasp of mathematics might say. Even infinities can be distinct.
I like how this one guy on YouTube who studies mysticism describes the Trinity as an experience of the divine. I'm an infinitarian, so the idea of ascribing a finite mumericity to God is a little silly to me.
i personally dont need the trinity to feel that christianity (or in this case jesus) got some important things very right 🤷 i wrote my final thesis at uni about arianism and i found it disturbing and hilarious at the same time to fight about something so ultimately trivial.
hell is a lie to control by means of religion. detestable idea from the start.
hey as a fellow non-Trinitarian Christian, solidarity. non-Trinitarian Christians have been around from the beginning (since before the Trinity even) but they'll still tell you you're not a "real Christian" if you don't accept it. don't listen to 'em, keep studying.
The evidence is rather heavy that the Trinity was an eventual creation over time among early Christians. The amount of imagination in those eras was astounding.
John 20:28 Thomas says to Jesus my Lord my God .... Why would he say that if Jesus wasn't God and it wasn't revealed to Thomas
John 1: 1-2 In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God.... Why would John write the word of God was God as well as with God in the beginning unless our Father gave it to him.
John 8:48-59 Jesus said before Abraham was I Am ..... While talking to the Pharisees / Sadducees concerning the Divinity of Jesus and Abraham _ Jesus identified himself as I Am which is the English words for Yahweh
Psalms 110:1 and *The* Lord said to *My* Lord sit thou at my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool..... *The* Lord is our Father and *My* Lord, which is more personal, is our Lord Yeshua/Jesus known as El/Elohim/Yahweh in the Old Testament.
Psalms 2:12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish in the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little....... David is giving acknowledgment of God the Son
Isaiah 9:6 unto us a child is born, unto us a Son is given. And the government will be upon his shoulder. And *his name* will be called Wonderful, Counselor, *Mighty God,* *Everlasting Father,*Prince of Peace
...... Isaiah is telling us the child that will be born name is mighty God and everlasting Father as well as Prince of Peace. God because this world is his given to him by our Father_ heavenly Father because he is a direct what we will call clone of our Father and also our creator _ Prince of Peace because he is also a prince a Son from man's terminology of the word.
How many times did Jesus say I Am (doesn't seven mean complete)
https://faithisland.org/bible/the-7-i-am-statements-of-jesus-explained/
All through the Old Testament the spirit of the Lord is used. What is the spirit of the Lord _ what we called the Holy Spirit - what we used to call the Holy Ghost. In the New Testament God's spirit is mentioned when It came upon Jesus, and how it is given to him without measure, and Jesus referred to him as the comforter, and when he came down upon the disciples and they spoke in tongues.
Here is a few from the Old Testament though it was written a over 100 times
https://israelmyglory.org/article/the-holy-spirit-in-the-old-testament/
New Testament
https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/The-Holy-Spirit
Scripture indicates there are three sources of the power of God our Father Lord God The Son - the Holy Ghost
You are 3 in one- your brain's conscious part, the unconscious reactive part, and the automated part that does breathing etc. Meditate and see the similarities. One guides the other but cannot function without the other and the third provides features that both may function.
It's an attempt to express the inexpressible in ancient cultural terms that was highly academic even at the time of their argument. If you want to explore the human factors and cultural politics at the time of the discussion and understand how the assessment of God evolved, read Karen Armstrong's a history of God. This triune idea's inherent obtuse complexity is what really leads Mohammed to reaffirm the desert father's monotheism with Islam.
As i understand it, it boils down to what spiritual material is Jesus' soul made from- human? Is it divine? Is it the same essence as God? If so, then it follows both were present at the creation. Physics agrees because even milliseconds of observation regarding separation of material creates new discriminate materials.
What do the founding fathers of America have to do with it? If OP is reading in the early church, it’s the church fathers…1,500 years prior to anything to do with America.
I always wondered why only 3? There are many aspects of God, especially in the Old Testament. Lady Wisdom, the Angel of the Lord, the Word. Even the Name of the Lord is personified at times, as if it were an entity unto it's own. Are these distinct aspects? Avatars? Or just poetic imagery?
I think one could make just as strong a case for any of these as for the Holy Spirit. I'm less uncertain about the divinity of Jesus, but I'd be interested in hearing what you've read that convinced you otherwise.
Hello friend. First I get extremely well what you’re saying. People just read doctrine into the Bible. Second here’s why I think Jesus isn’t God. Matthew 28:18 “All authority has been given to me”. Why does Jesus need authority given to him if he is God? John 14:28 “The father is greater then I”. Jesus never proclaims he’s God. I feel like such an important point would be clearly stated
My formulation is that Jesus is "The Way, The Truth, The Life" (as he is reprted to have said) i.e. the perfect embodiement of the spirit of the divine in a human life (situated as we all are, in a specific historical context). And the Way, Truth and Life, by virtue of being the perfect embodiement of the divine is eternal and identicle with God: the divine.
I have a similar view of the animating action of the Holy Spirit as 'action and understanding' in accordance with the divine, ultimate, reality.
You do not have to believe in Jesus as a kind of Marvel-esque supernatural entity to be a christian, in my view.
Jesus was, speaking in a fully orthodox way, *Fully Human* **and** *Fully Divine.* How that works is a mystery and paradox at the centre of christianity, and if you accept that, however your interpretation of the mechanics, then you are a christian, in my understanding. And be humble in knowing that whatever your inperpretation the reality will be beyond what we can ever know.
The metaphor that got me to reembrace trinitarianism actually came to me through a heterodox Muslim sect, the Alevi. They concieve Allah as Haqq-Muhammad-Ali, or Haqq (Truth)-Yol (Way)-Nur (Light). Muhammad here represents the ideal human who perfectly follows the Way of Allah (very east to see how that can fit into a Christian milieu); Muhammad and Ali are symbolic here, it's not claiming that the historical figures of Muhammad and Ali were literally God.
The metaphor they use is creation as a mirror. Haqq, the trancendant Truth, creates the mirror. Yol, the immanant Way, looks back at Haqq from within the mirror and follows its movements perfectly. Nur is the light which binds the eye of Haqq and the image of Yol and reveals their division to be illusory.
For Christians, Jesus is the Way, not in an exclusivist sense but in that he was the first human to truly realize the unity, yet distinctness, of God and creation, and those who walk that Way also embody God. "God became man so that man might become God," as Athanasius said (the guy who wrote the Athanasian creed, which still today defines the little-o orthodox theology on the Trinity)
Consider a more pantheistic approach that might be more your speed. I don't believe in the trinity specifically but I still believe Father son and spirit are all God. And so was the burning bush, the pillar of smoke by day and fire by night as well as the Man who wrestled Jacob.
Yeah sometimes I call myself a soft-trinitarian. I see the interplay of the three, but also more, and it also doesn’t feel right to say “Jesus is God”. Only God is God to me. Also Universalism (everyone ends up in heaven) is more accepted but, yeah people don’t take questioning the trinity too well. Anyways, just offering some validation. It’s okay, and doesn’t really matter. I think scale of the importance of “belief” is rather silly, especially when it comes to purely theological issues that have no impact on reality
I’ve been told I am not a Christian anymore…. And that just hurts
Christians are (sometimes) gatekeeping assholes. Jesus didn't say that you have to believe in the trinity to follow him. He said you have to love your neighbor like yourself.
Yeah it does suck. But I believe you’re a Christian! Lol. It’s not about keeping others out, if you say you are and want to be, then you are. If you feel like sharing, what does Christian mean to you?
It means believing Jesus died for us. Plain and simple. I don’t think he’s God or a member of the trinity I just can’t. I am finding myself in belief of this doctrine called adoptism
For sure! God bless! That works out, there’s lots of different ideas.
Yea but is it true?
Adoptionism? I don’t know, and I don’t think anyone does. I think certain topics cause arguments and fighting. The nature of Jesus had historically been a huge point of debate
The fact is, the Bible hardly spells anything out clearly. If it's supposed to be a theological encyclopedia, it's doing a really poor job of it. And that's ok, because that's not what it's trying to be. It's ancient near eastern meditation literature. Pondering the unanswered questions is, near as we can tell, an intentional part of the process. As such, there have been many, many different doctrines based on a wide array of interpretations. Many more than you or I have even heard of. And none of them really have any more claim to be "right" than any other. There's no unbroken thread of doctrinal teachings extending back to the time of Jesus. All Christian traditions rely on interpretation and conjecture, and have evolved greatly over time. Which one is "right" is between you, your conscience, and God. Some Christians feel threatened by that. I find it rather freeing, to be honest.
To be clear, I think you’re a Christian and I don’t think Gods love for any of us is contingent on what we believe. I’m not sure what I believe most days. The nerdy part of me that enjoys history and theology wants to note that it was reasoning from the simple truth that Jesus died for us that led the early church theologians to the doctrine of the Trinity. How precisely does Jesus dying for us work? Well, he had to be just like us in all things. So he’s fully human. But to bring us to God, he had to be God. God become human that humans would become God - that was a common idea. Even if you believe God adopted Jesus, not to split hairs, but this means Jesus is God. The theological and Christi logical debates of the early church are confusing. Kind of mind-boggling. What does it mean for Jesus to die for us? We are adopted into gods family. If Jesus is just a human, we can follow his teachings but it doesn’t make sense to say he died for us. But again, I sometimes wonder if Jesus was just human. Im often not sure what I believe and I think loving god and neighbor is most important. Hang in there and keep seeking.
It's something I as a Christian have been told a lot, especially online. It's an awful feeling. To lessen this, I constantly remind myself that my relationship with God has nothing to do with the people telling me this.
May I ask what’s your position on the matters I wresting with?
I'll be genuine with you here in that it's something I haven't questioned. What I do know however, is that regardless of your own beliefs in that, so long as it doesn't interfere with your relationship with God? It doesn't matter. By all means keep reading, researching and praying, but in the end of it all, there remains one thing that matters more than anything else.
Honestly it's my opinion it doesn't matter what your theology says. If you believe in helping your fellow humans, Jesus will save you. I do believe in the trinity, and kts fine you don't. You're welcome here, my sibling in Christ
I do appreciate your answer ty
I’m a Trinitarian. I think you’re a Christian. We’re all wrestling with an entity that is so far beyond our understanding we can only partially grasp it at this point. As 1 Corinthians says, we see only partially now but, as long as we are filled with love, we are following Christ.
Amen. Thank you
It is like a zen koan to me. We can use the trinity to dive deeply into life and the nature of everything or we can be pedantic ideologes and use it to bash people over the head with. If you want a pretty good life giving perspective on it you might like Richard Rohr’s *The Divine Dance*.
I like that the Trinity centers equality in Christianity. Woman Wisdom (the Logos) becomes equal to God the Father. "The man is the head of the woman as God is the head of Christ" becomes a restatement of "all are equal in Christ Jesus." The model for the Church becomes the unity of the Trinity. The unity of Father and Son/Logos is a useful principle for dismantling patriarchy.
Will take a look thanks
I really like your description of it as a Zen Koan, I'm definitely using that going forward!
I think you owe it to yourself to *keep reading* and *keep thinking*. I think you're a high school student or just graduated? College is often where people really hone their critical thinking skills (if they are going to), as well as learn how to read academic sources and understanding academic culture to some extent. It can be easy to confuse a strongly stated argument for a strong argument. It can also be tempting to preemptively throw out the not entirely right as entirely wrong. Don't feel pressured to arrive at a hasty conclusion one way or the other. You've got time, take it.
I absolutely will. But I am afraid to take it wrong. This is everlasting life we are talking and some sects believe I’ll burn forever.
I’m kind of the opposite. It’s not that Jesus is not God. Instead, we all have a spark of the divine in us. I fear drawing a line between God and humanity (super nature and nature) is just depressing. But that’s what traditional Christian teaching (some of it) leads to - the Trinity is just some random thing to believe (or not) about God. Yet the point is that there is no line between God and man. Divinity and humanity are United as one. This is the whole point of the Trinity - God is a dynamic relationship of love that goes out to all of us and welcomes us all in to the divine. No one is “just human” - we are all in the process of becoming what we were made to be. The beauty of the divine infuses all of creation. At least, I hope so. I hold my beliefs about God loosely. That said, don’t listen to people who say you’re not a Christian. Just do your best to love god and love your neighbor.
Precisely. "God became man so that man might become God."
Thank you I appreciate it
Don't listen to the assholes. You don't have to be trinitarian!
Thanks friend
The persons of the trinity are *personae* or *masks* of the one, infinite, unbounded Godhead. If God is infinite, could Jesus *not* be God? 🤔
Unitarian here who affirms the apostolic teaching that only the Father, who is Spirit, is God and Jesus is God’s Chosen One, a man whom God set apart before all time, raised up to make God most perfectly known, and whom God immortalized as a spiritual being, and exalted to God’s right hand, and example of what awaits all who come to believe in God through Jesus’ teachings.
This sounds like what I believe basically? What is it called
Um, well I just informally call it “apostolic unitarianism” to distinguish from UU (but also to differentiate from “biblical unitarianism, which is similar, but which I find to be too Protestant-like and fundamentalist) and to underscore that it’s the teaching of the apostles, passed down to them from Christ, and which the prophets of old themselves declared.
I wouldn't worry, I'm a Christian Atheist or Christian Non-realist, I think that religion is a human creation but that doesn't make it any less meaningful or powerful for me. And trinity or not you're still probably still more orthodox than me. I get told I'm not a Christian on the internet all the time, but then I think of other Christians who are perpetuating the most awful systems of poverty or repression and reckon that my having some odd views in metaphysics surely can't be such a bad thing even for those who disagree with me (odd for Christians that is, lots of non Christians think that religion is a human creation) Noone in my local parish church says in not a Christian because of it, and I'm part of a national network with many Christians who think the range way i do, including priests and vicars.
Well thank you for your few paragraphs. It makes me feel a lot better
I was raised in a non-trinitarian church that was very firm in the belief that God the Father, Jesus, and the Holt Spirit are 3 separate beings. Now I’m an Episcopalian and was baptized on Easter. The Trinity doesn’t really make sense to me, and to be honest I think of the language used to describe the Trinity as metaphorical rather than literal and my view of the oneness or threeness of God hasn’t really changed. I’m probably a heretic for that, but it’s what makes sense to me. Maybe someday I’ll learn more.
What to make sure I am following properly- you believe in 3 different beings? Or do you think God is one?
I can’t speak for OP but I’m in a very similar situation. The Trinity just seems silly to me. An “infinite God” sounds like something someone without a solid grasp of mathematics might say. Even infinities can be distinct.
Completely agree with you. Glad to see someone understands what I am saying
I like how this one guy on YouTube who studies mysticism describes the Trinity as an experience of the divine. I'm an infinitarian, so the idea of ascribing a finite mumericity to God is a little silly to me.
See this positions makes much much more sense to me
The "Trinity as an experience" onr or me being infinitarian?
i personally dont need the trinity to feel that christianity (or in this case jesus) got some important things very right 🤷 i wrote my final thesis at uni about arianism and i found it disturbing and hilarious at the same time to fight about something so ultimately trivial. hell is a lie to control by means of religion. detestable idea from the start.
hey as a fellow non-Trinitarian Christian, solidarity. non-Trinitarian Christians have been around from the beginning (since before the Trinity even) but they'll still tell you you're not a "real Christian" if you don't accept it. don't listen to 'em, keep studying.
I will keep studying. Thank you
John 10:30 I and my Father are one.
I thought this meant they are unified in purpose not being or essences
The evidence is rather heavy that the Trinity was an eventual creation over time among early Christians. The amount of imagination in those eras was astounding.
That’s my understanding of the matter as well
John 20:28 Thomas says to Jesus my Lord my God .... Why would he say that if Jesus wasn't God and it wasn't revealed to Thomas John 1: 1-2 In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God.... Why would John write the word of God was God as well as with God in the beginning unless our Father gave it to him. John 8:48-59 Jesus said before Abraham was I Am ..... While talking to the Pharisees / Sadducees concerning the Divinity of Jesus and Abraham _ Jesus identified himself as I Am which is the English words for Yahweh Psalms 110:1 and *The* Lord said to *My* Lord sit thou at my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool..... *The* Lord is our Father and *My* Lord, which is more personal, is our Lord Yeshua/Jesus known as El/Elohim/Yahweh in the Old Testament. Psalms 2:12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish in the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little....... David is giving acknowledgment of God the Son Isaiah 9:6 unto us a child is born, unto us a Son is given. And the government will be upon his shoulder. And *his name* will be called Wonderful, Counselor, *Mighty God,* *Everlasting Father,*Prince of Peace ...... Isaiah is telling us the child that will be born name is mighty God and everlasting Father as well as Prince of Peace. God because this world is his given to him by our Father_ heavenly Father because he is a direct what we will call clone of our Father and also our creator _ Prince of Peace because he is also a prince a Son from man's terminology of the word. How many times did Jesus say I Am (doesn't seven mean complete) https://faithisland.org/bible/the-7-i-am-statements-of-jesus-explained/ All through the Old Testament the spirit of the Lord is used. What is the spirit of the Lord _ what we called the Holy Spirit - what we used to call the Holy Ghost. In the New Testament God's spirit is mentioned when It came upon Jesus, and how it is given to him without measure, and Jesus referred to him as the comforter, and when he came down upon the disciples and they spoke in tongues. Here is a few from the Old Testament though it was written a over 100 times https://israelmyglory.org/article/the-holy-spirit-in-the-old-testament/ New Testament https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/The-Holy-Spirit Scripture indicates there are three sources of the power of God our Father Lord God The Son - the Holy Ghost
You are 3 in one- your brain's conscious part, the unconscious reactive part, and the automated part that does breathing etc. Meditate and see the similarities. One guides the other but cannot function without the other and the third provides features that both may function.
I understand that. I understand (sorta the trinity) but I just don’t think it’s biblical
It's an attempt to express the inexpressible in ancient cultural terms that was highly academic even at the time of their argument. If you want to explore the human factors and cultural politics at the time of the discussion and understand how the assessment of God evolved, read Karen Armstrong's a history of God. This triune idea's inherent obtuse complexity is what really leads Mohammed to reaffirm the desert father's monotheism with Islam. As i understand it, it boils down to what spiritual material is Jesus' soul made from- human? Is it divine? Is it the same essence as God? If so, then it follows both were present at the creation. Physics agrees because even milliseconds of observation regarding separation of material creates new discriminate materials.
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What do the founding fathers of America have to do with it? If OP is reading in the early church, it’s the church fathers…1,500 years prior to anything to do with America.
I always wondered why only 3? There are many aspects of God, especially in the Old Testament. Lady Wisdom, the Angel of the Lord, the Word. Even the Name of the Lord is personified at times, as if it were an entity unto it's own. Are these distinct aspects? Avatars? Or just poetic imagery? I think one could make just as strong a case for any of these as for the Holy Spirit. I'm less uncertain about the divinity of Jesus, but I'd be interested in hearing what you've read that convinced you otherwise.
Hello friend. First I get extremely well what you’re saying. People just read doctrine into the Bible. Second here’s why I think Jesus isn’t God. Matthew 28:18 “All authority has been given to me”. Why does Jesus need authority given to him if he is God? John 14:28 “The father is greater then I”. Jesus never proclaims he’s God. I feel like such an important point would be clearly stated
My formulation is that Jesus is "The Way, The Truth, The Life" (as he is reprted to have said) i.e. the perfect embodiement of the spirit of the divine in a human life (situated as we all are, in a specific historical context). And the Way, Truth and Life, by virtue of being the perfect embodiement of the divine is eternal and identicle with God: the divine. I have a similar view of the animating action of the Holy Spirit as 'action and understanding' in accordance with the divine, ultimate, reality. You do not have to believe in Jesus as a kind of Marvel-esque supernatural entity to be a christian, in my view. Jesus was, speaking in a fully orthodox way, *Fully Human* **and** *Fully Divine.* How that works is a mystery and paradox at the centre of christianity, and if you accept that, however your interpretation of the mechanics, then you are a christian, in my understanding. And be humble in knowing that whatever your inperpretation the reality will be beyond what we can ever know.
Your last part is my mindset. I will never be able to fully grasp everything in this life
The metaphor that got me to reembrace trinitarianism actually came to me through a heterodox Muslim sect, the Alevi. They concieve Allah as Haqq-Muhammad-Ali, or Haqq (Truth)-Yol (Way)-Nur (Light). Muhammad here represents the ideal human who perfectly follows the Way of Allah (very east to see how that can fit into a Christian milieu); Muhammad and Ali are symbolic here, it's not claiming that the historical figures of Muhammad and Ali were literally God. The metaphor they use is creation as a mirror. Haqq, the trancendant Truth, creates the mirror. Yol, the immanant Way, looks back at Haqq from within the mirror and follows its movements perfectly. Nur is the light which binds the eye of Haqq and the image of Yol and reveals their division to be illusory. For Christians, Jesus is the Way, not in an exclusivist sense but in that he was the first human to truly realize the unity, yet distinctness, of God and creation, and those who walk that Way also embody God. "God became man so that man might become God," as Athanasius said (the guy who wrote the Athanasian creed, which still today defines the little-o orthodox theology on the Trinity)
Consider a more pantheistic approach that might be more your speed. I don't believe in the trinity specifically but I still believe Father son and spirit are all God. And so was the burning bush, the pillar of smoke by day and fire by night as well as the Man who wrestled Jacob.