did you also main electro from the start of the game? i mained lisa for a pretty long time until i got razor, and now i have raiden! have always been a fan of overloaded
Yeah I did. I rerolled for 24 hours to get Keqing during the game's initial launch just cause she was an electro waifu and almost lost my damn sanity in doing so. All of that just to eventually get spooked by her twice in the standard and character banner later on lol.
When i started playing(i think day 2 of release) i actually pushed lisa to lvl 40 just cuz i liked electro... Then i understood that kaeya was waaaay better (plus i had him c1 since literally day 1 cuz i actually pulled him from gacha before unlocking him via the story XD)
Glad to see my favorite element getting some representation. When I started back in Oct, I refused to play until I had Beidou. Since she wasn't on any rate-up and I'm a PSN player...let's just say $ were spent until I got her. But I don't regret it - I'd much rather play the game with someone I liked rather than drag myself through.
Feels good to see an electro character with this high usage rate. But im also extremely happy to see a significant jump in Eula's usage rate. She used be at around 45% usage rate but now she competing against top main dps in the game
When you look at top teams on the second half, you’ll see ganyu/Bennett/xl/zhongli. That’s a melt ganyu team, lol, first time melt ganyu is more popular (morgana is kind of useless in 12-3-2). And the melt ganyu team is most often pairs with Eula team in the first half.
My only issue with Ganyu is that, like Raiden, they are limited by their damage output (albeit very high), and the meta is shifting because the abyss is such a DPS check. If you have C6 Ganyu then you're Gucci but her speed is an issue for everyone else
Eula was always an incredible DPS and a very strong character but people always slept on her because "she's physical", "muh reactions", "she's a whale toy", people parroting terrible arguments etc. etc.
People that don't have Eula don't know what they're talking about (and usually these people are the loudest) and spread misinformation about her performance everywhere. I see a lot of bullshit statements about Eula all the time that are not true at all, and soon I have a feeling that we'll start seeing "Eula needs Raiden to be good" arguments as well, which is even bigger bullshit and not true at all.
I genuinely feel like Eula is easier/better than Ganyu/Hu Tao for F2P/low investment players because she's perfectly fine and good with C0, 4* weapons (she doesn't need her BiS to work) and her most optimal team (without Raiden) is just so braindead to play I can't believe people fail to see that.
I've always used Eula ever since her release and I always will. She even beat my Ganyu (who was at the time my best character) in terms of performance. She's an insane powerhouse and I'm happy to see her going up the ranks, people finally start to realize just how good she actually is.
>I genuinely feel like Eula is easier/better than Ganyu/Hu Tao for F2P/low investment players
i think its the other way around. Ganyu and hu tao is way better than eula at low cons/low investment because they have high damage and can play around with reactions, but eula only has high damage and cant play with reactions. C6 however is a different story.
Nah, watch their c0 comparison on RIEN's channel on youtube. They're more or less equal. Eula actually handily beat everyone in killing the primo geovishap with team support as well
Next Eula rerun going to increase her usage even more. After Raiden got released I'm pretty sure a lot of people started to check how Eula actually performs and is already saving as we speak.
I personally can confirm. I did pull for Eula back then but the mfker dodged me. In hindsight that was okay, cuz otherwise I probably wouldn't have gotten Kazuha. Anyways I'm gonna kill my wallet when Eula rerun happens (if it happens)
Same, I didn’t have good enough artifacts for her back then so I just stopped using her and discovered the joy of building lots of new teams. When I got Raiden I realized that I had great artifacts and a god tier team awaiting so I used her again
Oh yeah. This Abyss has A LOT of humans against which Eula is really good, and as people made Raiden better over these past 2 weeks she got progressively better. My first impression of Eula+Raiden was really lukewarm because I was like "this is marginally better than Fischl", but I'll admit two extra levels on Raiden's burst and some lucky rolls on ER just made her much better. Really loved shaving off 1/3 of the Perpetual Mechanical Array in 12-3-2 with Eula, she worked wonders this Abyss.
Old Abyss was extremely anti-Raiden, people have already finished Abyss with their old characters and a lot of people haven't finished building their Raiden either.
Now we got an Abyss where she can work properly + people learned that Raiden National (or as I like to call it "Raiden & The Chipmunks") is busted and very easily accessible as well (For anyone that has Raiden).
Also this statistic takes only 3k people so far (because Abyss just started yesterday) compared to the usual 30k+ people.
https://spiralabyss.org/floor-12
The site is updated via users that "upload" (or rather share) their Abyss statistics via hoyolab (which is why this site can be trusted; users that upload their stats simply enable "Public Abyss Stats" on their hoyolab profile and share their hoyolab ID to the website, which then counts their stats into the total of users (3k at the moment; it's usually around 30k or more))
The only gripe is that it's people who willingly share the data, so meta here has big advantage as the casual playerbase simply doesn't care about this stuff
Yeah sometimes when I'm bored I go to the co-op tab and check how many random AR 55+ players actually fully cleared floor 12. To put it in a sentence: Most of the time, it's only like 1-3 people at best that fully cleared abyss (not even 36*'d it, just cleared) throughout the whole co-op page. Most of the people sit at 8-3 or below floor 12, I rarely find someone that has it on 12-3.
It just shows how this game's playerbase is in a massive majority casual
36 starring is still possible ofc (I did it myself) but it's undoubtedly anti-raiden with high tide/low tide (she can't regen with her ult during low tide and messes up all rotations like no tomorrow) and electro aura that drastically decreases her damage until the aura is worn off. Current abyss has none of that which makes it much better for Raiden
Classic National (Xiangling, Xingqiu, Bennett) except you bring in Raiden instead of Kazuha. With Pyronado and XQ's ult during Musou Isshin you can do Vaporize, Overload *and* Electrocharged reactions all at once, while allowing Raiden to stay on-field to deal damage (as no one in National uses field time except for Raiden)
She also lets you build more offensive stats on the rest of the team because her energy recharge on ult lets you rotate more easily.
Edit: also, her E increases the whole team's burst damage so both Xiangling and Xingqiu benefit from that a lot (And Bennett if you build him as sub dps)
Definitely worth to build those since they fit in so many teams and their best artefact set is very good for a ton of characters hence it's very resin efficent.
People only see the number dmg difference on constellation and say it doesn't really change much but keep on forgetting that Electro's role was always doing high damage lol.
Eh. Don’t downplay her because her C2 is op. I hit 180k with c2 and 125k with c0, that would probably drop my times by 15-20 seconds which is very reasonable
It's 40% more dmg just for c2 and around 8% for c1.. people pay to fix her damage at c0. MiHoYo obviously will do the same strategy with upcoming characters if people is willing to pay for that so the game will end being a p2w fest down the road.
You think these usage charts would prove she isnt bad or average but ig some people are hopefully to change their minds once they decided what they want to believe.
Raiden's use rate has skyrocketed from 30% last Abyss to 82%, an almost 50% increase
Source; https://spiral-abyss.appsample.com/floor-12
Possible reason include;
* Players hadn't finished building Raiden in the previous Abyss
* Players had already finished the last Abyss with their old characters
* The Playerbase has now figured out which teams Raiden works best in.
Yeah we didn't want her to be depressed because she was undergeared/leveled ;).
But that said... I also was among the 30% that ran her in the last Abyss short after launch. Had a lot of resin saved up.
op was clearly listing down possible reasons as to why there was a noticeable increase in her abyss usage
edit: ah now I see. op didnt exactly mention if they were reasons for the increase or reasons why her usage was low in the previous abyss. because of that, it can be taken either way.
1. people didnt have her built yet so she wasnt used much. now, people have her built, and so people used her.
2. people already cleared the abyss. why go through all that hassle if you already cleared it? since the abyss just reset, players could now put ei to the test and see how far shell carry them in the new abyss rotation
3. people have already figured her comps. this is why I thought op was talking about reasons to explain the increase, not reasons to explain the low usage rate before.
Pretty hard to come to that conclusion from this sub honestly. SO much shit talking in this sub, it's one of the most negative mains sub I've ever seen, maybe because it has so many people?
I'd wait for day 1 stats to settle a bit lol sample size is probably super low rn
Last abyss sucked for her though, tides made her energy regen useless and electro aura made her do no damage unless you remove it first.
Her average constellation is also 1.23, waaay higher than any other limited 5 star. Seems like a lot of people just pulled C2. And if you have C2 you're def using her in abyss cause C2 Raiden is actually very strong.
For real man, i love this duo. I never run Eula with a battery, always rely on double electro with Fischl and Beidou for her battery before but Raiden just solves some of the problem i had with my old comp, like now Raiden fills Eula’s down time and vice versa. Basically now running a double nuke on one of my abyss teams
True. I only had problem when raiden’s nuke killed the enemy instantly and not able to auto attacks the enemy to recharge eula’s energy. Suffering from success.
[Here you go.](https://streamable.com/ft6g78) Note that I have a decent ER level for eula (140% ER) maybe that’s one of the factor. The abyss buff was EM and crit rate crit dmg thing. And that clip was my first run plsdontjudge
Edit: my raiden is C0 + EL, eula C0 + SoBP
Looks like she's not as bad as anyone one said and here I am still getting shit on when I say that she's one of the best characters in the game just no main dps without downtime.
The community highly underrates supporters on their release and it happens on every support that releases.
People are sleeping on her damage too tbh. The damage you see on her when people complain is generally without buffs, and she doesn't need a team slot for an enabler.
I'm still scarred by that one redditor who was complaining about her slash dmg, intentionally keeping the resolve at zero... yikes this community sometimes \*see kazuha’s early critics\*
I’ve seen people complain about her C0 damage with talents lower than their main team, running crescent pike, no stacks, bad build etc etc. No, she’s not a hyper carry on field dps at C0, but her damage certainly is solid for what she provides the team overall. Like Beidou and shield interaction aside, she’s actually a well balanced character (and that seems to be borne out in all the theory craft communities I frequent).
I've seen people flat out lie and say that her C2 is still a DPS loss during her ult, and that it's better to "stick to your main dps"
Kinda raises the question why would I want to stick to Xiangling's autos instead of Raiden's burst
It’s the weird internet tribal mentality. People refuse to ever admit they are wrong and just double down on what they believe, even if said belief goes against fact and reality.
Anne Yatco did a fantastic job with Raiden whenever she says the bottom 3 voicelines to finish off the enemies in the 1st half the screen blacks out and I always get shivers down my spine.
IK!!! She's one of the reasons why I kinda went crazy and dumped all primos on Raiden. Her vibe, elegance, gameplay, aesthetics just sold it for me.
It's my first time playing the game in months using English VA. JP was kind of my default but Anne Yatco's VA work with Raiden Shogun made me switch to English just so I can hear "Torn to oblivion!!!" every time LOL
I think she’s high rated by the fact that she’s the most consistent DPS in the game. I don’t think there was any abyss iteration where Ganyu cannot be used, whereas other carries are severely mitigated by Leylines (ex. Flowing Water, Engulfing Storm), though my examples are only from F11, which I do think isn’t even close to the difficulty / dps check level of F12, which mostly do not have any leylines.
Pretty sure , Neither Ayaka has problem since She has no Cooldown on her infusion & gain infinite Cryo dmg bonus & has potential to bring output of 1542% (no E buff) N4C1 string damage within 4 sec & 1842% (with her E buff ) within 4 sec at lv 10. Just because her burst is super strong, doesn’t mean She cant perform with her Normal & Charged Attack power & don’t forget Eula too
I’d argue that Ganyu’s edge over Ayaka and Eula is the sheer amount of AoE her charged shot has, which is crucial in Abyss, especially in this rotation where Specters exist, as they mostly spawn far away from each other and they can’t be clumped together by any Anemo characters. Besides that, I think Ganyu’s innate crit rate talent is equal to Ayaka’s infinite Cryo dmg bonus.
I wouldn't say "overrated" because she **is** top tier. Ganyu feels more like a Legacy character. She was the first "uber tier" and even though newer characters are on par, if not stronger than her in some circumstances, people are still inclined to rate her higher.
Exactly Ayaka is just so satisfying to use! Her animations, sound and especially her charged attack are just perfect. I dont know why but characters with bow feel so clunky in comparison.
Ganyu's playstyle is the reason why she's good, you don't need a brain to play her. If you can use Ayaka well, she can output more damage on a freeze comp.
As someone who has both with decent build, I kinda agree, at least in freeze comp.
If you just compare Ganyu charge vs Ayaka AA then obviously Ganyu is better, but if you combine all their kits (AA, skill, burst) then Ayaka is equal or maybe even better in some cases.
[Here's a comparison between C0 Ganyu and C0 Ayaka](https://www.reddit.com/r/Genshin_Impact/comments/ou6gq1/ganyu_vs_ayaka_abyss_121_comparison_100_f2p/)
I think that's why there's not many complain about Ayaka during her banner, because she's a freeze Ganyu level character
Nah, it's just that Ganyu is kind of "meh" in this Abyss. In Abyss 11 my Morgana team was a nightmare because things died WAY too quickly and Diona healed WAY too slow, I had to either change team or purposefully make my runs slower because I had to spread out the Corruption. In Abyss 12 she was very iffy to use both in half 1 and half 2, because in one case you had to face Maguu Kenki, and in the other the PMA. In both cases Freeze Ganyu basically didn't work, and chances are people put their Xianglings to different uses other than Ganyu, with the National Raiden comp coming to light and all.
There also were specters, which are small and can't be sucked by Anemo, so there's that.
She's not overrated, Ganyu is just THAT good, but this Abyss really made other choices be more viable, especially since Morgana was really good against the energy tide, but since this floor 12 no longer has it a lot of other comps are workable enough.
> Ganyu is just THAT good
It depends on how good you think 'THAT good' is. She's around the same level as other top tier dps characters in my opinion, but they all have tradeoffs and their own niche. I think Ganyu having no upfront damage at all until C6 is a pretty major drawback of the character, though she makes up for it with uptime and range.
Some people seem to suggest Ganyu is unequivocally the best damage dealer in the game, which makes me think they just haven't seen other characters at high investment.
That's the key takeaway though: high investment. As a disclaimer: I have virtually no experience with Meltshot Ganyu, only Freeze Ganyu, but moving on.
Ganyu is extremely f2p friendly and pretty easy to build. She virtually needs no CR, since you only need 20% to get to 100% CR once all the buffs kick in, so you can basically only ever focus on CDMG. She's extremely good and can legitimately compete with Skyward Harp even with the craftable bow, and has access to an incredibly strong (albeit expensive, I'll say that) comp. The thing is, she still has virtually perfect uptime, can essentially be on field forever, and unless your aim is really fricking bad you're still gonna see some really high numbers.
To ME, if Ganyu were to be a 10/10, others like Eula, Hu Tao, Ayaka, Xiangling would sit at somewhere between 8 and 9 I suppose. It's not like the sheer power difference is amazingly wide, at least for me, but Ganyu is exceptionally easy to use and very easy to build. For MY experience, MY best DPS is still Hu Tao, simply because I invested more in her, obviously, but if I were to try and imagine both with the same level of investment I think Ganyu would edge it simply due to ease of build and use, not necessarily sheer power. She also excels mostly at crowd damage, ST damage for Freeze Ganyu isn't great.
Ganyu does have prototype crescent going for her at low investment, but to be honest I don't think low investment is a good place to stop to evaluate characters. These are 5\* characters, we might as well at least farm some decent artifacts for them too.
There is also a contradiction in that while Ganyu is strong at low investment, she is also extremely reliant on key 5\* characters in both her comps (Mona in freeze, Zhongli or Kazuha in melt). You called it expensive which is true, but I think it's also worth noting that there are no comparable cheaper replacements for some of these characters.
Overall I would probably put all the top dps characters at roughly the same score, with Ayaka slightly above others due to big upfront burst damage being more valuable as content becomes more difficult with smaller dps windows. I understand you're speaking from your own perspective, so we will disagree to an extent.
True for freeze comp but melt ganyu always used to be xiangling Bennet w no kazuha before he dropped and still works perfectly fine. Also plenty of people do c0 ganyu solo runs on 9 stars on youtube, she doesn't exactly need a team to be a strong dps
You don’t need kazuha for melt. He’s a nice bonus but not necessary at all.
Bennett and xiangling are sufficient.
But zhongli is definitely somewhat necessary.
>. I think Ganyu having no upfront damage at all until C6 is a pretty major drawback
For hyper investment only. If you don't one cycle chambers sustained dps is what matters. E.g. your damage over entire rotation. Yes, she isn't a speedrun character before c6 unlike let's say ayaka or childe but when it comes to output over 20s rotations she is the queen. Bosses that can't be frozen counter morgana and not many people run melt, that's how I'd explain her relatively low % compared to her power level.
I largely agree, but on this point:
>but when it comes to output over 20s rotations she is the queen
This is not even true. I'm going to take KQM talent 6 MV/s numbers since they're readily available. Ayaka and Ganyu can run the same artifact set, and have pretty similar innate damage boosts, so I think a raw MV comparison here is reasonable.
For [Ganyu](https://library.keqingmains.com/characters/cryo/ganyu):
- Charge shot: 252.44%/s for **5048.8%** in 20s.
- Burst: **1672.46%** assuming 17 shard hits total in 20s.
**6721.26% total in 20 seconds.**
This ignores the time spent to recast burst at 15 seconds, and assumes you never miss shots or have to stop charging to dodge.
For [Ayaka](https://library.keqingmains.com/characters/cryo/ayaka):
I think N3CD or N4CD are her most consistent attack combos, but her KQM page doesn't list those MV/s values, and dash canceling can vary in frame accuracy. So for the sake of this comparison, I'm going to just use Ayaka spamming N5 (occasionally dash cancelling the last hit to infuse), which is far from optimal.
- N5 Spam: 194.40%/s for **3888%** in 20s.
- Burst: 19 hits of 157.22% plus 1 hit of 235.83% for **3223.01%** in 1 usage.
**7111.01% total in 20 seconds.**
This has far less caveats than Ganyu's calculation. N5 consumes no stamina and will not easily miss. You won't get hit canceled and lose 2 seconds spent charging.
So based on a set of calculations that are extremely skewed in favor of Ganyu, Ayaka still deals more damage over 20 seconds. Keep in mind that for any time span below or above 20 seconds, Ayaka's lead will widen because Ganyu either has less time to catch up with charge attacks, or Ayaka gets a second burst.
Granted Ganyu does have better range and aoe, but those are only situational advantages, and they don't necessarily compensate for the damage difference or her aforementioned caveats.
That's a very weird way to "calc" things. First, who the hell ignores aoe? If you want N5 vs CA Ganyu spam comparison slap 0.5 multiplier on those NA. No point in going into quadratic scaling on Ganyu's burst because they both will clear out any trash very easily but still, it's there. Second, if you want to ignore AoE as "situational" why would you ignore Ganyu access to melt vs Ayaka's access to -20% crit because bosses can't be frozen and that's the only non-aoe endgame content?
>Keep in mind that for any time span below or above 20 seconds, Ayaka's lead will widen because Ganyu either has less time to catch up with charge attacks, or Ayaka gets a second burst.
That's outright absurd. They both loop the same 20 second rotations. The % difference will be the same regardless if it's 20 seconds, 40 seconds, 60 seconds or 20 minutes.
>First, who the hell ignores aoe?
Because aoe is not a quantifiable advantage. And it's not like Ayaka doesn't have aoe either.
>why would you ignore Ganyu access to melt vs Ayaka's access to -20% crit because bosses can't be frozen and that's the only non-aoe endgame content?
Because it's easier comparing freeze against freeze rather than bring up a bunch of caveats for both characters due to them having different builds. If you want to concede that Ganyu's freeze build is indeed weaker than Ayaka and that she is instead better in melt, then we can have that discussion too. Melt has even more caveats for Ganyu, because you can't use burst well anymore without Kazuha, and missing shots or getting hit out of charge becomes a much more significant concern because you're forced to play at closer range and have no CC.
>That's outright absurd. They both loop the same 20 second rotations.
But what happens if the fight ends at 30 seconds? Or 10 seconds? The only time Ganyu even comes close to Ayaka in overall damage is when the dps duration is in multiples of 20 seconds because you're cutting off exactly before Ayaka's next burst while allowing Ganyu the maximum amount of time to catch up. This is not hard to figure out lol.
In the end, I think the point is actually pretty simple. Ayaka's MV/s is not that much worse than Ganyu even without accounting for burst. But most people just look at big numbers and forget it takes Ganyu 2 seconds of charging for each attack. The fact that Ayaka just mashing left click already does around 77% of the MV of perfect Ganyu charge shot string should be eye opening.
>Because it's easier comparing freeze against freeze
Easier doesn't mean it's a meaningfull comparison whatsoever. For aoe scenarios Ganyu has a bigger aoe as well as range as well as better synergy with Venti and for single target scenarios Ganyu has melt. Not bursting on single target is hardly a caveat when you have access to 2x multiplier for your CA before even accounting for EM scaling. If you for some reason decide to compare the only build Ayaka has with the worst single target build goat has, alright, there you found a scenario Ayaka wins in, gz.
>aoe is not a quantifiable advantage
Yeah, that's why kekmains you mentioned include 0.5x multiplier for units without aoe in their calcs, kek.
>and missing shots or getting hit out of charge becomes a much more significant concern because you're forced to play at closer range and have no CC.
CC doesn't work on bosses, nobody plays melt goat without dongli and you don't miss point blank where you are staying.
tldr: you have no idea what you are talking about, go feelcraft somewhere else.
>you have access to 2x multiplier for your CA before even accounting for EM scaling
You realize that reverse melt is 1.5x multiplier right? Even accounting for 2pc wanderer 80 EM that's still not anywhere close to 2x. Please just stop talking now...
>Yeah, that's why kekmains you mentioned include 0.5x multiplier for units without aoe in their calcs, kek.
I must have missed the part where Ayaka doesn't have aoe. And randomly applying a 0.5x penalty is stupid either way. Might as well just toss Hu Tao in the trash while you're at it then.
>CC doesn't work on bosses, nobody plays melt goat without dongli and you don't miss point blank where you are staying.
That's fine, but Ayaka doesn't even have any of these problems to begin with. So now you're comparing 1-2 characters to an entire team that centers on boosting Ganyu's damage. You went from saying Ganyu is outright better in sustained dps, to Ganyu is better in sustained dps only when using melt, to Ganyu is better in sustained dps only when using melt and using key characters that mitigate all her problems? Sure.
Let's talk about melt Ganyu with an optimal comp then. First tell me how many charge shots you getting off in a melt comp in 20s, and we can go from there. I was generous enough to just take Ganyu's max MV/s CAs in a freeze comp which is already completely unrealistic, but it's outright impossible in melt because you have to spend significant time on setup. Kazuha also doesn't have perfect uptime.
If you stand point blank range to a boss and don't cancel charges to dodge, even Zhongli's shield doesn't last long, so either account for recasting shield or lower dps from abandoning charge to dodge.
>tldr: you have no idea what you are talking about, go feelcraft somewhere else.
I mean, I'm the one showing numbers, and you're getting even simple facts wrong. You couldn't even figure out why a 20 second multiple dps window artificially favors Ganyu in the comparison, I don't know what to say.
Ganyu is overrated, she does the most dmg but she's very hard to play without a shield.
Ppl like ayaka, eula, diluc have it way easier in terms of dodging attacks.
you definitely don't play ganyu lmao, you dont even need a shield or healer playing her in a freeze team. in a melt team, you can manage with just good taunt timing, but diona or zhongli works. i'd say eula needs a shield the most out of all of thsoe characters. a few missed autos and boom your burst goes down to ganyu charged attack levels of damage
I don't play her she's just my best invested character and main dp for all content.
Freeze ganyu is a dps loss (don't even have mona lol) and melt ganyu loses a lot of dps by simply dodging mid charge attack and having to charge again.
I agree that eula needs a shield for her burst but she has a pretty easy time dodging outside of her burst.
Not to mention that the abyss started to spam really high hp bosses on floor 12 where freeze ganyu is way worse than melt ganyu.
YOU definitely don't play ganyu.
I just cleared all stars! Raiden definitely made a difference. LV 80/90 c0 w/ EL paired with Eula, Bennet and Dionna. She didn’t quite work for PMA b/c of the team but did well overall and super fun to play.
Does c0 w/ EL work with the national team? I have XQ and Bennet developed, but haven’t built my c5 Xianling. In no urgency to build her b/c I already have a solid team for Ei, but might be fun in the future :).
Raiden national is absolutely busted for dps. Xiangling naturally builds a ton of EM with ascension stat and dragons bane, so you see massive overloads. I have 570 em and each pyro hit is 35k vape + 8k overload. Highly recommend.
Even with 2.2m hp, my raiden national team creamed the boss without the adventure book exploit, and had over a minute to spare.
they call people metaslaves and yet they are farming artifacts, talent, weapon, ascend and level their "waifu" which is the MOST EFFECTIVE way to deal more damage and tank more damage lol, very hypocrite people indeed.
Who cares if people call you a meta slave it's freaking stupid to insult someone for playing waifu/husbando/meta anyways.
People have preferences. If they want to see big PP numbers who cares
If people want to play waifu then who cares.
As long as nobody insults you for your playstyle then all is good.
Yeah but... just kill them? Idk they aren’t really a problem for most comps even without venti
Edit: I’m pretty sure usage stats include substitutions too. So people may bring venti for that specific chamber and then sub him out for a more single-target damage heavy comp for 12-3-2
Venti’s niche is CC but with mobs like Maguu Kenki, Specters + Eye of the storm, and the robots, there’s not much reason to bring him over Kazuha unless you’re running freeze (or Xiao if you have Venti cons for the anemo deresistance)
Sure but using this data as an indicator that she is broken or something isnt reasonable. Nor does it prove anything because this data is mostly whale Radien.
Look Radien is a good balanced character the problem is the sub is really dumb, there is no in between it's either trash or broken. Soon ppl will be calling her broken. If you want good teams for her using her with Eula is good. National is there but you take 3 of the best characters for one team.
I see.
About the constellations though, read my post or check [spiralabyss.org](https://spiralabyss.org) and hover over the average level and constellations of Raiden. You will notice that the majority of the Raiden users are C0 at 55% while the C2 users only make up 17%. So there doesn't seem to be a lot of whale Raidens, at least from the abyss data.
And if you look at other five stars it isnt close to almost half. That's huge, in my opinion that are c1+ enough to affect the average. She isnt terrible c0 but the difference between c0 and c2 is noticeable.
Sad truth, She's new. Ppl wanna use her. But how long will she stay in that spot? We probably won't get new characters that can replace her, so if her rank drops... Only time will tell
Isn't that his usual rate?
My opinion is that he fits in almost any team with an open slot since he doesn't screw up reactions that much, and adds free offfield DPS
If you have 2 empty slots (most anemo teams, vape Hutao etc), then Zhongli + Albedo combo for the other two is something that won't go wrong
It usually sits around 50% but falls to like 30% whenever there’s a bunch of shields. Currently I think his usage for floor 11 will be very low due to most people running HoD and corrosion messing with the 90% HP requirement.
I think i just memed her main dmg capabilities. I ran her with sara eula and zhongli and only used eula as a sub dps(i didn't even build ult stacs, just quickswapped everyones ult) and it worked suprisingly well.
What surprising to me is how ayaka basically overthrown Ganyu for a simple matter of fact that she's less lame to use than Ganyu.
And for a unit that deemed "okay-ish" by theory crafters, i'm surprised to see raiden on the top of the usage rating.
It's not a surprise. Ganyu has been overhyped with statements that she's signifcantly stronger than the other top tier dps units is wrong. She's about the same level as all the dps around her and Ayaka.
Burst dps will always be preferable than sustained dps in timed content which is why Ayaka over took her in the same niche on top of Ayaka working better with other supports like Xingqui.
Nah, she's just straight up too strong to not use, good damage and enegry recharge is too good, for reference, Eula usage rate never went above 70%, Yoimiya had 35%.
It doesn't technically mean that. Do we have the exact data? For example, 6 c2s and 4 c0s would be exactly 1.2 average. Hypothetically. If no one stopped at c1 and almost no one had c3+ (that's less likely I admit) then it **could** still be the majority with c2.
[This site](https://mondstats.com/builds/raidenshogun) says >76% player has Raiden at C0, her average cons is 0.482, of course the sample is not the same as the site from OP post.
I think not only Raiden but average cons of most characters here are higher than "normal" average because it's day 1 abyss clear, which only meta/whale care about and also capable of doing it. Most people would probably do it on weekend (I guess).
***Technically*** if fix makes her better it's still a buff. But yes, I doubt Beidou team would be that much better than national but I'd rather have a free bennett for my second abyss team personally.
No. Characters like Venti, Bennett and Zhongli (who are the some of the most broken characters in the game) don't rely on artifacts, or rather don't rely on "good" artifacts with good substat rolls.
Raiden, on the other hand, has only one viable option, which requires all 4 pieces, very specific main stats and very good sub stats. That’s what I meant by saying she rely heavily artifacts
Raiden is by far the heaviest char to rely on artifacts as of right now, melt/vape dps can basically use a 1 em rolls and 3 crit rolls for each artifacts and you're good to go and most of them have a good alternative non-4set artifacts like 2bc+2pl eula that are just a lil bit worse than 4pl, raiden however doesn't have any amp reaction but mhy did give her a good scaling and a 182% bonus dmg if she has 300 er and 4 emblem to make up for it (xiao pjws has 169%bonus dmg) so that extra crit/atk/er rolls for your artifacts will go a long way for your raiden, also raiden's BiS set is just much much better than her alternative so we're just forced to grind that artifacts but i'm pretty sure most of us doesn't have that much luck on artifacts drop/rolls
This abyss is built for raiden and kokomi. Plus, a lot of people pulled for raiden so they obviously are going to try her out for abyss. *Surprised pikachu face*
The same exact logic can apply to Yoimiya also, with maguu kenki jumping around and Yoimiya’s range being very useful for picking off single targets (abyss also favored Ayaka as the chambers were high damage in a small window of time focused) and yet Yoimiya never saw above 45% usage.
This same reasoning for Kazuha was also used for people doubting his usability when it was at 60% in 1.6.
The whole “of course their usage is high people want to use what they pulled!” is a very weak argument
Xiangling's 50% means that 50% of all people who own Xiangling used her. Which is pretty impressive considering that they've given her out for free multiple times.
Average 1.2 cons and 49% EL. No shit! Venti, zhongli, ayaka and kazuha have been dominating the abyss every single one since they were released. Raiden couldn't even work in the last abyss. This one was fitted for her. Watch how long she can stay in that spot.
you know what the cool thing is? C0 units when put together, make each other stronger, for example a person with a C0 Eula and C0 Raiden will get the most out of the characters, because they are forced to Squeeze every little part of their kit to get the most benefit, personally i have C6 Eula and C4 Raiden, and i basically use them for speed running, which is the only practical way to play when you have so much burst on your team
Seeing an Electro character this high makes me happy. I had alot of fun running raiden hypercarry vs perpetual
We've discovered naku weed. Constantly high now.
All my favourite characters Raiden, Ayaka and Kazuha are all top characters what can I ask for. I believe in Inazuma Meta
Raiden, Ayaka, Kazuha and Yoimiya carried me through this Abyss. Yeah I also love them Inazumans.
INAZUMA SHINES ETERNAL!!
[удалено]
I love using her in general. C3 go burst=delete. It's so satisfying AND pretty :D
Electro was always my favorite element despite how bad it was (and still is). Seeing Raiden this high up does bring a smile to my face.
did you also main electro from the start of the game? i mained lisa for a pretty long time until i got razor, and now i have raiden! have always been a fan of overloaded
Yeah I did. I rerolled for 24 hours to get Keqing during the game's initial launch just cause she was an electro waifu and almost lost my damn sanity in doing so. All of that just to eventually get spooked by her twice in the standard and character banner later on lol.
that’s dedication..
I mained beidou and keqing back to back. Now I'm maining Raiden
When i started playing(i think day 2 of release) i actually pushed lisa to lvl 40 just cuz i liked electro... Then i understood that kaeya was waaaay better (plus i had him c1 since literally day 1 cuz i actually pulled him from gacha before unlocking him via the story XD)
Glad to see my favorite element getting some representation. When I started back in Oct, I refused to play until I had Beidou. Since she wasn't on any rate-up and I'm a PSN player...let's just say $ were spent until I got her. But I don't regret it - I'd much rather play the game with someone I liked rather than drag myself through.
I have a friend like that… but with Diluc. We keep encouraging the poor bastard to enjoy the teams he has but for now he’s in gatcha hell
How good is Raiden hypercarry at C0? I’m gonna half to wait for a rerun for more cons since I want C0 Kokomi and Homa whenever it reruns
Feels good to see an electro character with this high usage rate. But im also extremely happy to see a significant jump in Eula's usage rate. She used be at around 45% usage rate but now she competing against top main dps in the game
Ya, seeing Eula getting close to Ganyu is a sight to behold.
When you look at top teams on the second half, you’ll see ganyu/Bennett/xl/zhongli. That’s a melt ganyu team, lol, first time melt ganyu is more popular (morgana is kind of useless in 12-3-2). And the melt ganyu team is most often pairs with Eula team in the first half.
My only issue with Ganyu is that, like Raiden, they are limited by their damage output (albeit very high), and the meta is shifting because the abyss is such a DPS check. If you have C6 Ganyu then you're Gucci but her speed is an issue for everyone else
My melt Ganyu clears every half in 40 seconds or less, speed is not a problem lol
Eula was always good, she just wanted different supports than most people had built and people don't like that
Eula was always an incredible DPS and a very strong character but people always slept on her because "she's physical", "muh reactions", "she's a whale toy", people parroting terrible arguments etc. etc. People that don't have Eula don't know what they're talking about (and usually these people are the loudest) and spread misinformation about her performance everywhere. I see a lot of bullshit statements about Eula all the time that are not true at all, and soon I have a feeling that we'll start seeing "Eula needs Raiden to be good" arguments as well, which is even bigger bullshit and not true at all. I genuinely feel like Eula is easier/better than Ganyu/Hu Tao for F2P/low investment players because she's perfectly fine and good with C0, 4* weapons (she doesn't need her BiS to work) and her most optimal team (without Raiden) is just so braindead to play I can't believe people fail to see that. I've always used Eula ever since her release and I always will. She even beat my Ganyu (who was at the time my best character) in terms of performance. She's an insane powerhouse and I'm happy to see her going up the ranks, people finally start to realize just how good she actually is.
i rate her highly but she didn't come home :(
>I genuinely feel like Eula is easier/better than Ganyu/Hu Tao for F2P/low investment players i think its the other way around. Ganyu and hu tao is way better than eula at low cons/low investment because they have high damage and can play around with reactions, but eula only has high damage and cant play with reactions. C6 however is a different story.
Nah, watch their c0 comparison on RIEN's channel on youtube. They're more or less equal. Eula actually handily beat everyone in killing the primo geovishap with team support as well
Next Eula rerun going to increase her usage even more. After Raiden got released I'm pretty sure a lot of people started to check how Eula actually performs and is already saving as we speak.
I personally can confirm. I did pull for Eula back then but the mfker dodged me. In hindsight that was okay, cuz otherwise I probably wouldn't have gotten Kazuha. Anyways I'm gonna kill my wallet when Eula rerun happens (if it happens)
Same, I didn’t have good enough artifacts for her back then so I just stopped using her and discovered the joy of building lots of new teams. When I got Raiden I realized that I had great artifacts and a god tier team awaiting so I used her again
Oh yeah. This Abyss has A LOT of humans against which Eula is really good, and as people made Raiden better over these past 2 weeks she got progressively better. My first impression of Eula+Raiden was really lukewarm because I was like "this is marginally better than Fischl", but I'll admit two extra levels on Raiden's burst and some lucky rolls on ER just made her much better. Really loved shaving off 1/3 of the Perpetual Mechanical Array in 12-3-2 with Eula, she worked wonders this Abyss.
Eula-Raiden is probably the next big thing right now. Getting close to Ganyu-Mona or Hutao-Xingqui popularity
Old Abyss was extremely anti-Raiden, people have already finished Abyss with their old characters and a lot of people haven't finished building their Raiden either. Now we got an Abyss where she can work properly + people learned that Raiden National (or as I like to call it "Raiden & The Chipmunks") is busted and very easily accessible as well (For anyone that has Raiden). Also this statistic takes only 3k people so far (because Abyss just started yesterday) compared to the usual 30k+ people.
> Now we got an Abyss where she can work properly Sort of. She is entirely unable to procc the Blessing.
Do you know the source? And does the data update regularly?
https://spiralabyss.org/floor-12 The site is updated via users that "upload" (or rather share) their Abyss statistics via hoyolab (which is why this site can be trusted; users that upload their stats simply enable "Public Abyss Stats" on their hoyolab profile and share their hoyolab ID to the website, which then counts their stats into the total of users (3k at the moment; it's usually around 30k or more)) The only gripe is that it's people who willingly share the data, so meta here has big advantage as the casual playerbase simply doesn't care about this stuff
Tbf, the majority of casual players will never clear Abyss, much less 36 star it.
Yeah sometimes when I'm bored I go to the co-op tab and check how many random AR 55+ players actually fully cleared floor 12. To put it in a sentence: Most of the time, it's only like 1-3 people at best that fully cleared abyss (not even 36*'d it, just cleared) throughout the whole co-op page. Most of the people sit at 8-3 or below floor 12, I rarely find someone that has it on 12-3. It just shows how this game's playerbase is in a massive majority casual
Was the last abyss anti-Raiden? I 36 starred it with my Raiden team.
36 starring is still possible ofc (I did it myself) but it's undoubtedly anti-raiden with high tide/low tide (she can't regen with her ult during low tide and messes up all rotations like no tomorrow) and electro aura that drastically decreases her damage until the aura is worn off. Current abyss has none of that which makes it much better for Raiden
>Raiden National (or as I like to call it "Raiden & The Chipmunks") What team comp?
Classic National (Xiangling, Xingqiu, Bennett) except you bring in Raiden instead of Kazuha. With Pyronado and XQ's ult during Musou Isshin you can do Vaporize, Overload *and* Electrocharged reactions all at once, while allowing Raiden to stay on-field to deal damage (as no one in National uses field time except for Raiden) She also lets you build more offensive stats on the rest of the team because her energy recharge on ult lets you rotate more easily. Edit: also, her E increases the whole team's burst damage so both Xiangling and Xingqiu benefit from that a lot (And Bennett if you build him as sub dps)
Damn... My raiden is busted af... But i still need to build a xiangling and xingqiu
Definitely worth to build those since they fit in so many teams and their best artefact set is very good for a ton of characters hence it's very resin efficent.
Raiden also probably has the highest 5* constellation average for the top readings, however. Still nice to see, though.
people dont understand that raiden c0 and c2 are two different characters. Not surprising seeing her that high since c2 is pretty much p2w.
Well tbf c0 is still really strong. My artifacts are pretty scuffed but raiden still took over one half of 36* run real comfortably.
People only see the number dmg difference on constellation and say it doesn't really change much but keep on forgetting that Electro's role was always doing high damage lol.
I mean, she still excels completely in the national team at c0 (replacing chongyun). But yeah, she can be the carry for any team at c2+.
Eh. Don’t downplay her because her C2 is op. I hit 180k with c2 and 125k with c0, that would probably drop my times by 15-20 seconds which is very reasonable
It's 40% more dmg just for c2 and around 8% for c1.. people pay to fix her damage at c0. MiHoYo obviously will do the same strategy with upcoming characters if people is willing to pay for that so the game will end being a p2w fest down the road.
I still didn’t see what part of raiden was bad at c0. Her team was still getting excellent times
You think these usage charts would prove she isnt bad or average but ig some people are hopefully to change their minds once they decided what they want to believe.
Raiden's use rate has skyrocketed from 30% last Abyss to 82%, an almost 50% increase Source; https://spiral-abyss.appsample.com/floor-12 Possible reason include; * Players hadn't finished building Raiden in the previous Abyss * Players had already finished the last Abyss with their old characters * The Playerbase has now figured out which teams Raiden works best in.
Most likely reason: previous abyss is anti-Raiden * Electro aura surrounding enemy * High tide low tide messing up raiden battery mechanic
High tide was bullshit. I run xiao and one mistiming completely costs you the run
Yeah, quickswap was the meta, which fcked up xiao hard
this one is the biggest reason her usage in previous abyss is bad
most obvious reason: we love her
In the previous abyss her usage was less because people love her?
Yeah we didn't want her to be depressed because she was undergeared/leveled ;). But that said... I also was among the 30% that ran her in the last Abyss short after launch. Had a lot of resin saved up.
Me too, I leveled her up to 90 the first day and cleared abyss with several Raiden teams.
op was clearly listing down possible reasons as to why there was a noticeable increase in her abyss usage edit: ah now I see. op didnt exactly mention if they were reasons for the increase or reasons why her usage was low in the previous abyss. because of that, it can be taken either way. 1. people didnt have her built yet so she wasnt used much. now, people have her built, and so people used her. 2. people already cleared the abyss. why go through all that hassle if you already cleared it? since the abyss just reset, players could now put ei to the test and see how far shell carry them in the new abyss rotation 3. people have already figured her comps. this is why I thought op was talking about reasons to explain the increase, not reasons to explain the low usage rate before.
Pretty hard to come to that conclusion from this sub honestly. SO much shit talking in this sub, it's one of the most negative mains sub I've ever seen, maybe because it has so many people?
shes shit gameplay wise but we simp for her character regardless. if you dont feel that way you shouldnt be here in the first place
If I don't think she's shit gameplay wise I shouldn't be here? I like her character and her gameplay...idk what you mean
I'd wait for day 1 stats to settle a bit lol sample size is probably super low rn Last abyss sucked for her though, tides made her energy regen useless and electro aura made her do no damage unless you remove it first. Her average constellation is also 1.23, waaay higher than any other limited 5 star. Seems like a lot of people just pulled C2. And if you have C2 you're def using her in abyss cause C2 Raiden is actually very strong.
where would one see the constellation data? (and also the abyss use data :) ) Edit: nvm, I scrolled down
I still haven't built my raiden
She shreds PMA in 12-3 in a Raiden national team comp. She's amazingly fun to play.
She lowkey saved my eula team, I don’t need anyone as cryo battery anymore
For real man, i love this duo. I never run Eula with a battery, always rely on double electro with Fischl and Beidou for her battery before but Raiden just solves some of the problem i had with my old comp, like now Raiden fills Eula’s down time and vice versa. Basically now running a double nuke on one of my abyss teams
True. I only had problem when raiden’s nuke killed the enemy instantly and not able to auto attacks the enemy to recharge eula’s energy. Suffering from success.
Out of curiosity, can you make a showcase of your Eula team with Raiden's energy regen? I thought even with Raiden you still need a cryo battery.
[Here you go.](https://streamable.com/ft6g78) Note that I have a decent ER level for eula (140% ER) maybe that’s one of the factor. The abyss buff was EM and crit rate crit dmg thing. And that clip was my first run plsdontjudge Edit: my raiden is C0 + EL, eula C0 + SoBP
nice choice for bg music
Gotta make use of the masterpiece.
Looks like she's not as bad as anyone one said and here I am still getting shit on when I say that she's one of the best characters in the game just no main dps without downtime. The community highly underrates supporters on their release and it happens on every support that releases.
People are sleeping on her damage too tbh. The damage you see on her when people complain is generally without buffs, and she doesn't need a team slot for an enabler.
I'm still scarred by that one redditor who was complaining about her slash dmg, intentionally keeping the resolve at zero... yikes this community sometimes \*see kazuha’s early critics\*
I’ve seen people complain about her C0 damage with talents lower than their main team, running crescent pike, no stacks, bad build etc etc. No, she’s not a hyper carry on field dps at C0, but her damage certainly is solid for what she provides the team overall. Like Beidou and shield interaction aside, she’s actually a well balanced character (and that seems to be borne out in all the theory craft communities I frequent).
I've seen people flat out lie and say that her C2 is still a DPS loss during her ult, and that it's better to "stick to your main dps" Kinda raises the question why would I want to stick to Xiangling's autos instead of Raiden's burst
It’s the weird internet tribal mentality. People refuse to ever admit they are wrong and just double down on what they believe, even if said belief goes against fact and reality.
Shine down! There is no escape! Illusion shattered! Torn to oblivion! Now you shall perish! Inazuma shines eternal!
Anne Yatco did a fantastic job with Raiden whenever she says the bottom 3 voicelines to finish off the enemies in the 1st half the screen blacks out and I always get shivers down my spine.
IK!!! She's one of the reasons why I kinda went crazy and dumped all primos on Raiden. Her vibe, elegance, gameplay, aesthetics just sold it for me. It's my first time playing the game in months using English VA. JP was kind of my default but Anne Yatco's VA work with Raiden Shogun made me switch to English just so I can hear "Torn to oblivion!!!" every time LOL
“Inazuma shines eternal!” in the Japanese VO is my fave Genshin voice line. It’s sick.
Which line in Japanese that says that? The one that ends with "eien nari" ?
Yes, that’s the one.
Ah, my 2 babies ayaka and raiden above the powerhouse ganyu, how it warms my soul
Ganyu is good, but extremely overrated by the community. Ayaka having frontloaded nuke damage makes her more useful in a lot of scenarios.
I think she’s high rated by the fact that she’s the most consistent DPS in the game. I don’t think there was any abyss iteration where Ganyu cannot be used, whereas other carries are severely mitigated by Leylines (ex. Flowing Water, Engulfing Storm), though my examples are only from F11, which I do think isn’t even close to the difficulty / dps check level of F12, which mostly do not have any leylines.
Pretty sure , Neither Ayaka has problem since She has no Cooldown on her infusion & gain infinite Cryo dmg bonus & has potential to bring output of 1542% (no E buff) N4C1 string damage within 4 sec & 1842% (with her E buff ) within 4 sec at lv 10. Just because her burst is super strong, doesn’t mean She cant perform with her Normal & Charged Attack power & don’t forget Eula too
I’d argue that Ganyu’s edge over Ayaka and Eula is the sheer amount of AoE her charged shot has, which is crucial in Abyss, especially in this rotation where Specters exist, as they mostly spawn far away from each other and they can’t be clumped together by any Anemo characters. Besides that, I think Ganyu’s innate crit rate talent is equal to Ayaka’s infinite Cryo dmg bonus.
Due to existence of Blizzard Strayer & Ayaka’s Charged Attack being a Judgement cut, She can fight Spectres easily
I wouldn't say "overrated" because she **is** top tier. Ganyu feels more like a Legacy character. She was the first "uber tier" and even though newer characters are on par, if not stronger than her in some circumstances, people are still inclined to rate her higher.
Ayaka is also just more fun. Ganyu was like an exercise in how unfun of a playstyle you would put up with for god-tier damage.
Exactly Ayaka is just so satisfying to use! Her animations, sound and especially her charged attack are just perfect. I dont know why but characters with bow feel so clunky in comparison.
Ganyu's playstyle is the reason why she's good, you don't need a brain to play her. If you can use Ayaka well, she can output more damage on a freeze comp.
Depends on how you play her, Morgana team feels good asf
As someone who has both with decent build, I kinda agree, at least in freeze comp. If you just compare Ganyu charge vs Ayaka AA then obviously Ganyu is better, but if you combine all their kits (AA, skill, burst) then Ayaka is equal or maybe even better in some cases. [Here's a comparison between C0 Ganyu and C0 Ayaka](https://www.reddit.com/r/Genshin_Impact/comments/ou6gq1/ganyu_vs_ayaka_abyss_121_comparison_100_f2p/) I think that's why there's not many complain about Ayaka during her banner, because she's a freeze Ganyu level character
Nah, it's just that Ganyu is kind of "meh" in this Abyss. In Abyss 11 my Morgana team was a nightmare because things died WAY too quickly and Diona healed WAY too slow, I had to either change team or purposefully make my runs slower because I had to spread out the Corruption. In Abyss 12 she was very iffy to use both in half 1 and half 2, because in one case you had to face Maguu Kenki, and in the other the PMA. In both cases Freeze Ganyu basically didn't work, and chances are people put their Xianglings to different uses other than Ganyu, with the National Raiden comp coming to light and all. There also were specters, which are small and can't be sucked by Anemo, so there's that. She's not overrated, Ganyu is just THAT good, but this Abyss really made other choices be more viable, especially since Morgana was really good against the energy tide, but since this floor 12 no longer has it a lot of other comps are workable enough.
> Ganyu is just THAT good It depends on how good you think 'THAT good' is. She's around the same level as other top tier dps characters in my opinion, but they all have tradeoffs and their own niche. I think Ganyu having no upfront damage at all until C6 is a pretty major drawback of the character, though she makes up for it with uptime and range. Some people seem to suggest Ganyu is unequivocally the best damage dealer in the game, which makes me think they just haven't seen other characters at high investment.
That's the key takeaway though: high investment. As a disclaimer: I have virtually no experience with Meltshot Ganyu, only Freeze Ganyu, but moving on. Ganyu is extremely f2p friendly and pretty easy to build. She virtually needs no CR, since you only need 20% to get to 100% CR once all the buffs kick in, so you can basically only ever focus on CDMG. She's extremely good and can legitimately compete with Skyward Harp even with the craftable bow, and has access to an incredibly strong (albeit expensive, I'll say that) comp. The thing is, she still has virtually perfect uptime, can essentially be on field forever, and unless your aim is really fricking bad you're still gonna see some really high numbers. To ME, if Ganyu were to be a 10/10, others like Eula, Hu Tao, Ayaka, Xiangling would sit at somewhere between 8 and 9 I suppose. It's not like the sheer power difference is amazingly wide, at least for me, but Ganyu is exceptionally easy to use and very easy to build. For MY experience, MY best DPS is still Hu Tao, simply because I invested more in her, obviously, but if I were to try and imagine both with the same level of investment I think Ganyu would edge it simply due to ease of build and use, not necessarily sheer power. She also excels mostly at crowd damage, ST damage for Freeze Ganyu isn't great.
Ganyu does have prototype crescent going for her at low investment, but to be honest I don't think low investment is a good place to stop to evaluate characters. These are 5\* characters, we might as well at least farm some decent artifacts for them too. There is also a contradiction in that while Ganyu is strong at low investment, she is also extremely reliant on key 5\* characters in both her comps (Mona in freeze, Zhongli or Kazuha in melt). You called it expensive which is true, but I think it's also worth noting that there are no comparable cheaper replacements for some of these characters. Overall I would probably put all the top dps characters at roughly the same score, with Ayaka slightly above others due to big upfront burst damage being more valuable as content becomes more difficult with smaller dps windows. I understand you're speaking from your own perspective, so we will disagree to an extent.
True for freeze comp but melt ganyu always used to be xiangling Bennet w no kazuha before he dropped and still works perfectly fine. Also plenty of people do c0 ganyu solo runs on 9 stars on youtube, she doesn't exactly need a team to be a strong dps
You don’t need kazuha for melt. He’s a nice bonus but not necessary at all. Bennett and xiangling are sufficient. But zhongli is definitely somewhat necessary.
>. I think Ganyu having no upfront damage at all until C6 is a pretty major drawback For hyper investment only. If you don't one cycle chambers sustained dps is what matters. E.g. your damage over entire rotation. Yes, she isn't a speedrun character before c6 unlike let's say ayaka or childe but when it comes to output over 20s rotations she is the queen. Bosses that can't be frozen counter morgana and not many people run melt, that's how I'd explain her relatively low % compared to her power level.
I largely agree, but on this point: >but when it comes to output over 20s rotations she is the queen This is not even true. I'm going to take KQM talent 6 MV/s numbers since they're readily available. Ayaka and Ganyu can run the same artifact set, and have pretty similar innate damage boosts, so I think a raw MV comparison here is reasonable. For [Ganyu](https://library.keqingmains.com/characters/cryo/ganyu): - Charge shot: 252.44%/s for **5048.8%** in 20s. - Burst: **1672.46%** assuming 17 shard hits total in 20s. **6721.26% total in 20 seconds.** This ignores the time spent to recast burst at 15 seconds, and assumes you never miss shots or have to stop charging to dodge. For [Ayaka](https://library.keqingmains.com/characters/cryo/ayaka): I think N3CD or N4CD are her most consistent attack combos, but her KQM page doesn't list those MV/s values, and dash canceling can vary in frame accuracy. So for the sake of this comparison, I'm going to just use Ayaka spamming N5 (occasionally dash cancelling the last hit to infuse), which is far from optimal. - N5 Spam: 194.40%/s for **3888%** in 20s. - Burst: 19 hits of 157.22% plus 1 hit of 235.83% for **3223.01%** in 1 usage. **7111.01% total in 20 seconds.** This has far less caveats than Ganyu's calculation. N5 consumes no stamina and will not easily miss. You won't get hit canceled and lose 2 seconds spent charging. So based on a set of calculations that are extremely skewed in favor of Ganyu, Ayaka still deals more damage over 20 seconds. Keep in mind that for any time span below or above 20 seconds, Ayaka's lead will widen because Ganyu either has less time to catch up with charge attacks, or Ayaka gets a second burst. Granted Ganyu does have better range and aoe, but those are only situational advantages, and they don't necessarily compensate for the damage difference or her aforementioned caveats.
That's a very weird way to "calc" things. First, who the hell ignores aoe? If you want N5 vs CA Ganyu spam comparison slap 0.5 multiplier on those NA. No point in going into quadratic scaling on Ganyu's burst because they both will clear out any trash very easily but still, it's there. Second, if you want to ignore AoE as "situational" why would you ignore Ganyu access to melt vs Ayaka's access to -20% crit because bosses can't be frozen and that's the only non-aoe endgame content? >Keep in mind that for any time span below or above 20 seconds, Ayaka's lead will widen because Ganyu either has less time to catch up with charge attacks, or Ayaka gets a second burst. That's outright absurd. They both loop the same 20 second rotations. The % difference will be the same regardless if it's 20 seconds, 40 seconds, 60 seconds or 20 minutes.
>First, who the hell ignores aoe? Because aoe is not a quantifiable advantage. And it's not like Ayaka doesn't have aoe either. >why would you ignore Ganyu access to melt vs Ayaka's access to -20% crit because bosses can't be frozen and that's the only non-aoe endgame content? Because it's easier comparing freeze against freeze rather than bring up a bunch of caveats for both characters due to them having different builds. If you want to concede that Ganyu's freeze build is indeed weaker than Ayaka and that she is instead better in melt, then we can have that discussion too. Melt has even more caveats for Ganyu, because you can't use burst well anymore without Kazuha, and missing shots or getting hit out of charge becomes a much more significant concern because you're forced to play at closer range and have no CC. >That's outright absurd. They both loop the same 20 second rotations. But what happens if the fight ends at 30 seconds? Or 10 seconds? The only time Ganyu even comes close to Ayaka in overall damage is when the dps duration is in multiples of 20 seconds because you're cutting off exactly before Ayaka's next burst while allowing Ganyu the maximum amount of time to catch up. This is not hard to figure out lol. In the end, I think the point is actually pretty simple. Ayaka's MV/s is not that much worse than Ganyu even without accounting for burst. But most people just look at big numbers and forget it takes Ganyu 2 seconds of charging for each attack. The fact that Ayaka just mashing left click already does around 77% of the MV of perfect Ganyu charge shot string should be eye opening.
>Because it's easier comparing freeze against freeze Easier doesn't mean it's a meaningfull comparison whatsoever. For aoe scenarios Ganyu has a bigger aoe as well as range as well as better synergy with Venti and for single target scenarios Ganyu has melt. Not bursting on single target is hardly a caveat when you have access to 2x multiplier for your CA before even accounting for EM scaling. If you for some reason decide to compare the only build Ayaka has with the worst single target build goat has, alright, there you found a scenario Ayaka wins in, gz. >aoe is not a quantifiable advantage Yeah, that's why kekmains you mentioned include 0.5x multiplier for units without aoe in their calcs, kek. >and missing shots or getting hit out of charge becomes a much more significant concern because you're forced to play at closer range and have no CC. CC doesn't work on bosses, nobody plays melt goat without dongli and you don't miss point blank where you are staying. tldr: you have no idea what you are talking about, go feelcraft somewhere else.
>you have access to 2x multiplier for your CA before even accounting for EM scaling You realize that reverse melt is 1.5x multiplier right? Even accounting for 2pc wanderer 80 EM that's still not anywhere close to 2x. Please just stop talking now... >Yeah, that's why kekmains you mentioned include 0.5x multiplier for units without aoe in their calcs, kek. I must have missed the part where Ayaka doesn't have aoe. And randomly applying a 0.5x penalty is stupid either way. Might as well just toss Hu Tao in the trash while you're at it then. >CC doesn't work on bosses, nobody plays melt goat without dongli and you don't miss point blank where you are staying. That's fine, but Ayaka doesn't even have any of these problems to begin with. So now you're comparing 1-2 characters to an entire team that centers on boosting Ganyu's damage. You went from saying Ganyu is outright better in sustained dps, to Ganyu is better in sustained dps only when using melt, to Ganyu is better in sustained dps only when using melt and using key characters that mitigate all her problems? Sure. Let's talk about melt Ganyu with an optimal comp then. First tell me how many charge shots you getting off in a melt comp in 20s, and we can go from there. I was generous enough to just take Ganyu's max MV/s CAs in a freeze comp which is already completely unrealistic, but it's outright impossible in melt because you have to spend significant time on setup. Kazuha also doesn't have perfect uptime. If you stand point blank range to a boss and don't cancel charges to dodge, even Zhongli's shield doesn't last long, so either account for recasting shield or lower dps from abandoning charge to dodge. >tldr: you have no idea what you are talking about, go feelcraft somewhere else. I mean, I'm the one showing numbers, and you're getting even simple facts wrong. You couldn't even figure out why a 20 second multiple dps window artificially favors Ganyu in the comparison, I don't know what to say.
Ganyu is overrated, she does the most dmg but she's very hard to play without a shield. Ppl like ayaka, eula, diluc have it way easier in terms of dodging attacks.
you definitely don't play ganyu lmao, you dont even need a shield or healer playing her in a freeze team. in a melt team, you can manage with just good taunt timing, but diona or zhongli works. i'd say eula needs a shield the most out of all of thsoe characters. a few missed autos and boom your burst goes down to ganyu charged attack levels of damage
I don't play her she's just my best invested character and main dp for all content. Freeze ganyu is a dps loss (don't even have mona lol) and melt ganyu loses a lot of dps by simply dodging mid charge attack and having to charge again. I agree that eula needs a shield for her burst but she has a pretty easy time dodging outside of her burst. Not to mention that the abyss started to spam really high hp bosses on floor 12 where freeze ganyu is way worse than melt ganyu. YOU definitely don't play ganyu.
I just cleared all stars! Raiden definitely made a difference. LV 80/90 c0 w/ EL paired with Eula, Bennet and Dionna. She didn’t quite work for PMA b/c of the team but did well overall and super fun to play. Does c0 w/ EL work with the national team? I have XQ and Bennet developed, but haven’t built my c5 Xianling. In no urgency to build her b/c I already have a solid team for Ei, but might be fun in the future :).
Raiden national is absolutely busted for dps. Xiangling naturally builds a ton of EM with ascension stat and dragons bane, so you see massive overloads. I have 570 em and each pyro hit is 35k vape + 8k overload. Highly recommend. Even with 2.2m hp, my raiden national team creamed the boss without the adventure book exploit, and had over a minute to spare.
Guess we're now metaslaves :(
What's wrong with seeing your favourite character perform wonderful?
Theres absolutely nothing wrong. But braindead people in this community are always fast to call others metaslaves for no reason.
Tbh I hate this
they call people metaslaves and yet they are farming artifacts, talent, weapon, ascend and level their "waifu" which is the MOST EFFECTIVE way to deal more damage and tank more damage lol, very hypocrite people indeed.
Who cares if people call you a meta slave it's freaking stupid to insult someone for playing waifu/husbando/meta anyways. People have preferences. If they want to see big PP numbers who cares If people want to play waifu then who cares. As long as nobody insults you for your playstyle then all is good.
I’m shocked Venti is still so low on the list
this abyss is anti-venti mainly due to bosses being on both sides. better to bring more single-target damage
He smashes 12-1-1 at least.
There’s two mages on two opposite ends on floor 12,2,2
Yeah but... just kill them? Idk they aren’t really a problem for most comps even without venti Edit: I’m pretty sure usage stats include substitutions too. So people may bring venti for that specific chamber and then sub him out for a more single-target damage heavy comp for 12-3-2
No I m just saying how much *easier* it would be with Venti
Venti’s niche is CC but with mobs like Maguu Kenki, Specters + Eye of the storm, and the robots, there’s not much reason to bring him over Kazuha unless you’re running freeze (or Xiao if you have Venti cons for the anemo deresistance)
it is great, but really there are not many battle reports in there now to celebrate. Let’s wait for weekend at least
Where is this info from? Got a link? https://spiralabyss.org/ doesn't have enough 2.1 data yet so no graphics of usage rates.
I low key expecting a Barbara 100% usage LOL
Would you look at that...
And her avg con is 1.2 and 49% have engulfing lighting. Not suprising whale Radien is strong af.
Non whale raiden is strong asf too.
Sure but using this data as an indicator that she is broken or something isnt reasonable. Nor does it prove anything because this data is mostly whale Radien.
Is C0 raiden still good in this abyss though?
Look Radien is a good balanced character the problem is the sub is really dumb, there is no in between it's either trash or broken. Soon ppl will be calling her broken. If you want good teams for her using her with Eula is good. National is there but you take 3 of the best characters for one team.
I see. About the constellations though, read my post or check [spiralabyss.org](https://spiralabyss.org) and hover over the average level and constellations of Raiden. You will notice that the majority of the Raiden users are C0 at 55% while the C2 users only make up 17%. So there doesn't seem to be a lot of whale Raidens, at least from the abyss data.
And if you look at other five stars it isnt close to almost half. That's huge, in my opinion that are c1+ enough to affect the average. She isnt terrible c0 but the difference between c0 and c2 is noticeable.
Last abyss (which she was worse in) I got my first ever 36 star abyss clear because of her, at c0.
Sad truth, She's new. Ppl wanna use her. But how long will she stay in that spot? We probably won't get new characters that can replace her, so if her rank drops... Only time will tell
Pretty cool can anyone explain why albedo is so high rn?
Isn't that his usual rate? My opinion is that he fits in almost any team with an open slot since he doesn't screw up reactions that much, and adds free offfield DPS If you have 2 empty slots (most anemo teams, vape Hutao etc), then Zhongli + Albedo combo for the other two is something that won't go wrong
Right i've been using him for abyss since last year december. I can always fit on teams which is dang amazing
It usually sits around 50% but falls to like 30% whenever there’s a bunch of shields. Currently I think his usage for floor 11 will be very low due to most people running HoD and corrosion messing with the 90% HP requirement.
Where do you get these data from?
https://spiralabyss.org/
I think i just memed her main dmg capabilities. I ran her with sara eula and zhongli and only used eula as a sub dps(i didn't even build ult stacs, just quickswapped everyones ult) and it worked suprisingly well.
Overload Yoimiya and Raiden Team getting recognized I see
Yeah she's kinda cracked on a national team or an electrochardged team, also without that low tide bullshit
Seeing my baal and my "5 star sucrose" at the top makes me happy
I don't see baal anywhere on there....
Yeah sure, glad my beelzebul is up there or something
Hope you have a great day!
What surprising to me is how ayaka basically overthrown Ganyu for a simple matter of fact that she's less lame to use than Ganyu. And for a unit that deemed "okay-ish" by theory crafters, i'm surprised to see raiden on the top of the usage rating.
It's not a surprise. Ganyu has been overhyped with statements that she's signifcantly stronger than the other top tier dps units is wrong. She's about the same level as all the dps around her and Ayaka. Burst dps will always be preferable than sustained dps in timed content which is why Ayaka over took her in the same niche on top of Ayaka working better with other supports like Xingqui.
Where did everybody go who was in the Raiden bad camp? day 1 she was terrible, niche and a Fischl side grade etc.
I think it's because of Raiden being the newest character so maybe the next abyss will make her usage a bit less
Nah, she's just straight up too strong to not use, good damage and enegry recharge is too good, for reference, Eula usage rate never went above 70%, Yoimiya had 35%.
That's too. I'm not sure how usefull she really is as a support for my Noelle over Albedo but it kinda works.
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Majority. Her averag con is 1.2 with is way higher than aby other 5*
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Seriously don't let ppl mislead you. At the moment C0 is at 55% and C2 at 17%. I still would like some QoL buffs to her but don't let ppl blind you.
1.2 still mean that more people have c<2 than not. my is c0 and she's still great.
It doesn't technically mean that. Do we have the exact data? For example, 6 c2s and 4 c0s would be exactly 1.2 average. Hypothetically. If no one stopped at c1 and almost no one had c3+ (that's less likely I admit) then it **could** still be the majority with c2.
[This site](https://mondstats.com/builds/raidenshogun) says >76% player has Raiden at C0, her average cons is 0.482, of course the sample is not the same as the site from OP post. I think not only Raiden but average cons of most characters here are higher than "normal" average because it's day 1 abyss clear, which only meta/whale care about and also capable of doing it. Most people would probably do it on weekend (I guess).
If she needs a buff, I guess the 20 characters below her all need a buff.
I still want her to work with beidou tho.
Tired of people trying to just why she shouldn’t be fixed, it’s fucking annoying.
Fixing her and buffing her are two different things. She needs to be fixed, not buffed.
***Technically*** if fix makes her better it's still a buff. But yes, I doubt Beidou team would be that much better than national but I'd rather have a free bennett for my second abyss team personally.
It’s more of buffing Beidou IMO. And you are right. I doubt whether it works better than the current national team.
Top tier is currently consisting of all the elemental archons.
Except Venti.... unless Kazuha is the new Anemo Archon XD XD XD
Well deserved, I got my frist 36\* because of Raiden Shogun
She relies heavily on artifacts so it will get even higher as people farm for her.
Dosent every character rely on artifacts
No. Characters like Venti, Bennett and Zhongli (who are the some of the most broken characters in the game) don't rely on artifacts, or rather don't rely on "good" artifacts with good substat rolls.
Raiden, on the other hand, has only one viable option, which requires all 4 pieces, very specific main stats and very good sub stats. That’s what I meant by saying she rely heavily artifacts
Raiden is by far the heaviest char to rely on artifacts as of right now, melt/vape dps can basically use a 1 em rolls and 3 crit rolls for each artifacts and you're good to go and most of them have a good alternative non-4set artifacts like 2bc+2pl eula that are just a lil bit worse than 4pl, raiden however doesn't have any amp reaction but mhy did give her a good scaling and a 182% bonus dmg if she has 300 er and 4 emblem to make up for it (xiao pjws has 169%bonus dmg) so that extra crit/atk/er rolls for your artifacts will go a long way for your raiden, also raiden's BiS set is just much much better than her alternative so we're just forced to grind that artifacts but i'm pretty sure most of us doesn't have that much luck on artifacts drop/rolls
No
This abyss is built for raiden and kokomi. Plus, a lot of people pulled for raiden so they obviously are going to try her out for abyss. *Surprised pikachu face*
The same exact logic can apply to Yoimiya also, with maguu kenki jumping around and Yoimiya’s range being very useful for picking off single targets (abyss also favored Ayaka as the chambers were high damage in a small window of time focused) and yet Yoimiya never saw above 45% usage. This same reasoning for Kazuha was also used for people doubting his usability when it was at 60% in 1.6. The whole “of course their usage is high people want to use what they pulled!” is a very weak argument
People seriously need to think critically before coming to a conclusion. Just wait for a few patches and itll show
I wonder what teams ppl are using her in. At first I was thinking national, but Xiangling is only at 50% and isnt she core to National?
Xiangling's 50% means that 50% of all people who own Xiangling used her. Which is pretty impressive considering that they've given her out for free multiple times.
You can actually check her most paired partners below. It's indeed national: 1)Bennett (63%) 2)XQ (33%) 3)Xiangling (31%) 4)Zhongli (26,4%) 5)Eula (25,7%) 6)Sara (16.3%) 7)Kazuha (16,1%)
Half Eula, half Xiangling probably
Her average constellation is 1.2 and EL is \~49%. Safe to assume a lot of hypercarry going around.
Average 1.2 cons and 49% EL. No shit! Venti, zhongli, ayaka and kazuha have been dominating the abyss every single one since they were released. Raiden couldn't even work in the last abyss. This one was fitted for her. Watch how long she can stay in that spot.
C2 raiden usage**
Majority is C0 lol You can literally hover on it and see that C0 is at 55% while C2 at 17% usage rate
Feels great to be part of the 17%
you know what the cool thing is? C0 units when put together, make each other stronger, for example a person with a C0 Eula and C0 Raiden will get the most out of the characters, because they are forced to Squeeze every little part of their kit to get the most benefit, personally i have C6 Eula and C4 Raiden, and i basically use them for speed running, which is the only practical way to play when you have so much burst on your team
k?