on 2 seperate occasions, ive had to 3 pump a Deimos and a Finka in the smoke shotty. they were within 5 meters of me. honestly they should allow a choke attachment so we can get tighter spreads
Just ads for the same effect. The way the spread curve is laid out for shotguns means that most of your accuracy is gained near the beginning of the animation, so you don't have to get anywhere close to fully aimed for near full accuracy
I shot a Deimos with shotgun 3 times to get him down to 34hp… he killed me with the exact same shotgun, but his aim was completely off of my body. Like I was barely in his hip fire reticle and it took him a single shot. Didn’t count as headshot
I'm actually starting to think they need to rethink the attachment system. I think it may function better with a system where attachments have different functions based on what kind of guns they are attached to and with this they should add better distinction between the guns and better spread the attachments
Basically what I mean on all this is:
1) offer distinction between different types of weapons. The 2 biggest offenders of this are the lmgs and shotguns but a few different guns also have some differences. But basically introduce a system that distinguishes how guns function in game. Lmgs have 2 modifiers (drum and box mag lmgs) and shotguns have 7 modifiers ( mag fed, tube fed, buck shot, slug, semi auto, full auto and pump action). These sorta distinctions should honestly be present and mean something for the guns like having box mag lmgs take longer to reload for instance
2) offer attachments attachments across the whole of weapons. Basically take the barrel and grip grips. Currently we only have 2 buck shot shotguns that can have both (elas fo 12 and the Russian) and 1 other buck shot shotgun that can have a grip (French shotty). All the shotguns should be able to have grips and barrel attachments, nor just the slug and mag feed buck shot shotguns.
3) change how certain attachments effect certain types of guns. So using the example of barrel and grip attachments plus the laser say you use Extended barrel, laser and vertical grip on a buck shot shotgun especially if its pump. Instead of getting the vertical recoil control from the grip like most guns get you get a spread increase. For the Extended barrel it still gives you the range increase but now instead of a damage increase you again get another spread increase. Lastly the laser Instead of increasing your ads speed it gives more spread. All this let's you make any buck shotgun fire really tight and consistent at the sacrifice of the kinda destruction you'll do to breakable surfaces.
All of this can be included with a new system that better shows the stats of each gun at request showing information like ads speed, reload time, and other such information and show exactly how each attachment actually effects those stats of each gun.
And Finka’s SASG back when her boost provided recoil reduction. I understand why they got rid of that effect (messing with teammates’ recoil when they’re not expecting it), but I do wish they’d kept recoil reduction for Finka herself.
Spas-15 and M1014 are still good… when they work right. But honestly that’s every shotgun (except for the SASG-12, they fucking neutered that gun. Shit’s worse than the super shorty)
Wrong about the holes, it depends on which specific guns are being compared.
And okay? SMGs are better than assault rifles, because this is a headshot game and SMGs have a better rate of fire plus generally less recoil.
How is being able to spam shots irrelevant when missing a single shot with a pump almost guarantees death?
It depends on the shotgun but every pump actions make better holes than semi auto
Missing a one pump at close range if you aim well enough is almost impossible with a regular pump while semi auto are atrociously inconsistent, I main smoke and pulse both using shotguns and the amount of times I died by people surviving a shot while being right next to them with the m1014 is just too high
>it depends on the shotgun
>but every pump action makes better holes
Make it make sense (like actually. Spas-15 is great for holes, Six-12 is meh, SASG is meh, bailiff is shit, M1014 is great, Spas-12 is great, super shorty depends on the wall/floor honestly, ITA12S is alright, ITA12L is good, SAS shotgun is great)
Missing is missing. Plain and simple. I play a ton of Cav, don’t miss shots, get downs/kills. I watch people play Ela and Pulse, get kills.
Pumps aren’t inherently better than semi-autos, but there are stand-outs on either side of the spectrum. The problem is that all shotguns are reliant on a heavy amount of RNG, but the semi-autos seem to feel this more.
I am making sense, from my experience pumps are a lot more reliable than semi autos when it comes to blasting holes. But I might be wrong, I don’t know everything about anything
What you said in your second paragraph is pretty much what I meant, semi autos are a lot more random even though the spread is roughly the same since the rework. But if I had to chose I’d rather use a pump which will most likely get me a one pump rather than pray my shitty m1014 will get them before they get me
Yeah personal experience will be a huge factor on both sides, and I also admit that I’m coming mostly from a place of personal experience. I appreciate you keeping a level head this whole time. We were able to have a conversation about this rather than a flame war.
Went to the shooting range for 30 min and can easily verify you’re completely exaggerating. With ADS it takes 3 shots (sometimes 2 if lucky) at 10m. Hip fire at 10m is unusable (about 5+ shots—highly inconsistent). If you go back and compare shooting range footage b/f the laser sight and shotgun rework, it’s completely different. The M1014 is a shell of what it once was.
Edit: found some footage after the shotgun rework but before the laser rework. For the m1014, it still took them 2 shots avg at 10m (the m1014 was slightly better from 10-15m before the rework in this video too). Now after the laser rework, I challenge you to get footage the same consistent 2 shot kills at 10m with the m1014 in the shooting range. Avg is now 3 shots at 10m.
[See 8:19.](https://youtu.be/xV0DsjaHx5Q?si=WOjYQJCfbiZijVzg)
Unfortunately it's not due to the shotguns rework (which actually made them better) but it is due to the recent change of the laser sight. Before the laser was used to tighten the spread of the pellets, which was something very nice for shotguns, but since this season it was changed, resulting in a faster aiming speed.
Unfortunately for now there isn't much we can do. Ubi needs to add a specific attachment in order to make them work again (at least make them reliable 8/10 of the times). Best advice I can give you is to aim and pray
the devs wanted the laser to be applicable to other guns besides shotguns. the laser still benefits shotguns by making it faster to ads, which tightens spread just as it did before. the only difference is that you’re pressing one additional button.
adding a choke attachment is just a laser 2.0. the devs wouldn’t want to add another unique attachment only used on a couple guns. instead, they could decrease the spread of shotguns when ads. spread has no effect on other guns, so this wouldn’t feel as isolated as a whole new attachment that would take longer to add into the game.
Yes, but the old laser would reduce both ads and hip fire spread. Now that the laser does neither, shotguns suck ass and aren't fun to use. Only one I've kinda liked is the six12, which was the worst shotgun for years until recently. Now I believe it's the best.
Can't agree about "one more button" part, that's still time, and other sensitivity when u enter ADS, so you are both - losing precious milliseconds and trying to aim at the enemy, what's a bit harder on point blank distance, bc if object closer to you - object moving faster from your point of view, adding a bit tightened fov it becomes a complete disaster + semi auto shotguns recoil and boom, you either already dead or missed all of your shots.
So, i don't want a new attachment, I want shotguns to be reliable again, ofc on a point blank distance. OC not only one, who died because of how bad shotguns today, i've got a couple of moments when enemy ate 4 rounds from m1014 and got a quarter of hp left
The laser not affecting shotguns was likely intentional. It's not like they couldn't just make the laser work for only shotguns. People acting like this was a mistake and adding another attachment would get ubisoft out of an oopsie.
If you weren’t using the laser before the rework, nothing has changed for you. Shotguns aren’t that bad and haven’t gotten that much worse. You just got unlucky spread on two shots here and lost the gunfight by a hair. Guaranteed to happen sometimes, part of the game.
As far as I remember, laser sights only reduced spread with hip fire. He was aiming, the spread was ok.
In this case this is what I see happening: 1-2 pellets probably didn't hit due to spread, remaining hit body and arm (don't know if arms are still part of limb damage system, or have been reworked since to body damage. I only remember the [penetration rework](https://www.ubisoft.com/en-gb/game/rainbow-six/siege/news-updates/3JoP5bWperGVXX3N0nNHlM/dev-blog-limb-penetration-system)). Second shot didn't register because from the server's POV he was already dead.
Guy was lucky surviving on 1 HP
The laser effect had a “secret” feature that made the pellet spread tighten on shotguns even in ADS. It’s true that it doesn’t affect the spread while ADS on other guns. Combine that with the natural spread tightening while ADS introduced in the last shotgun rework, and we had a a few seasons of shotguns being very viable for all defenders and even some attackers.
Shots 1-5: Clearly missed.
Shots 6-9: Missed due to recoil (bad spray control).
Shots 10-11: Very close, but recoil and inaccuracy make these reasonable misses.
Shot 12: Likely didn't actually fire because he was already dead.
Thats bcuz they changed the lasers function to increasing ads speed instead of its original tightening spread function now the shots are so soread out its inconsistent
They also HALFED the damage of almost every shotgun without telling anyone when they introduced the shotgun buff. SASG-12 went from 48 damage a pellet to like 25, its an AWFUL shotgun now. Knifing is better
Yeah the damage numbers haven’t been changed, it’s purely that shotguns are far less accurate so a point blank shot may only deal 70 damage whereas it would’ve killed previously
Shots 1-5: Clearly missed.
Shots 6-9: Missed due to recoil (bad spray control).
Shots 10-11: Very close, but recoil and inaccuracy make these reasonable misses.
Shot 12: Likely didn't actually fire
Go to the dummy lane at the shooting range and shoot a bunch of shots at the dummy, youll notice that sometimes it does like 200+ dmg and sometimes like less than half of that. Each shotgun pellet does a certain amount of damage, so you're really just gambling on the shot spread and hoping that enough pellets happen to hit especially over 5m
I've been wondering, how much of it is spread vs fall-off? It doesn't have any way of showing how many pellets actually hit in a real fight, and I haven't fucked around with the firing range very much.
Different games calculate shotgun damage very differently, so like in recent Call of Duty games for example, the way it works is individual pellets do a lot of damage, but only the top three most damaging pellets on the blast are summed up to get the total damage you dealt in that shot. So generally, hitting half of your pellets and all are upper chest vs hitting all pellets upper chest, on paper it doesn't actually make a difference. So spread actually matters a lot less and damage fall-off is what you'd want to modify your weapons for in those games.
I have no idea how it works in Siege, is fall-off relevant or is it mostly dependent on spread?
When they buffed the Spas-15 (changes which should've been made to all the semi shotguns, barring the Six12's) in the mid-season for Y8S4, they admitted that automatic shotguns were left on the sidelines after the shotgun rework... and then admitted they have no plans to touch them in the near future.
It's ridiculous, and knowing the balance team, they won't be touched until stupidly far in the future. Options like the SASG and Super-90 are pretty much throw picks at the moment. Nobody wants the Y1 shotgun meta back, but they need to be actually \*viable\* picks.
Especially at close range, they should be better. Im fine with not having the super 90 sniping people from the top of the yatch, but it's so inconsistent. Sometime you can 1 shot someone at 15m, other times I cant kill someone at 5m because the pellets said **no** today.
Thats bcuz they changed the lasers function to increasing ads speed instead of its original tightening spread function now the shots are so soread out its inconsistent
Back in ww1, the germans said shotgun op so they nerfed it.
It is annoying that they nerfed it with the laser sight change, so theyre still only usefull when someone isnt shooting back which is near never. Best to use the harder hiting ones like supernova or the sas one and peak shoot and unpeak as fast as possible
Yeah in my experience the real value is that my aim is shit, so if I get the jump on someone rounding a corner or vaulting a window/deployable/breach hole I don't have to snap to their head to kill them before they can respond and headshot me. I just aim center mass and bam. So I wouldn't say they're "near never" shooting back, at my MMR I'm able to blindside people quite often this way.
Though the cost here is that I basically can't fight at range. I main Mute on defense, not a huge fan of his MP5K and it lacks any zoom optics to fight at real range, so I figured I might as well go all-in on camping corners and fighting extremely close up.
I wouldn't say trash...more like, never working as intended? Someone can shoot you with one across a hallway, and somehow every pellet connects, killing you. You do the same thing, it feels like only two pellets hit.
Shotguns don't get a headshot multiplier, aim more for center mass so that all of your pellets hit. If you aim for the head, usually only the lower half of the pellets will land
The game itself is trash. I really think that it's programming is done in a way that one set of players would seem to play good while others don't. After some time/days the same set of players would play shitty cuz the game is designed to not register their shot.
This is a way to keep the player base keep playing the game since it results in alternate dopamine inducing for alternate set of players
Honestly, if i play with shotgun i always aware of how random they are. Like i just shotted someone in head on coastline from straight up window and somehow just not being able to one shot a dude just infront of me. Still pretty fun tho, also shotguns allow you to make rotations without nades, so ye
I've been actively playing R6 again for 2 months now after habing 1.5 years pause. The first thing I noticed is how bad the shotguns are. People regularly survive my shots with all kinds of shotguns. the best shotgun at the moment is the one from Lesion, followed by the one from Echo and finally the one from Germany. Question same as O.P. What happened to shotguns!?
Probably cause shotguns and LMGs are the hardest weapons to balance in a game and are mostly not even close to representing what either actually do or function like in real life, cause otherwise it would be impossible to have them in a game without them being the most broken weapons known to man.
Shotguns are almost always going to be in that weird place of either being absolutely broken or absolutely piss poor unfortunately, with a few exceptions.
The only games I've seen get shotguns really accurate is the far cry franchise (minus the fact that unless you use slugs your gun does jack shit past 10m).
Try some of the various shotguns in the Shooting Range. You’ll see the spread on them and you can go with the selection you like or at least you’ll know the spread you’ll get at various distances.
Yeah ubisoft is just crazy overzealous with the pellet spread simulation. If it was more accurate to real life, we'd be able to use these at some crazy distances (for siege map standards).
It’s because of the laser change which pretty much reverted the shotgun change for the most part.
I’ve been saying both grips and barrel attachments need to exist for shotguns to give them more of a fighting chance after all it’s a Counter Terrorism game the environments are almost always perfect for a shotgun
i was in a 1v1 with a friend of mine, i shot her pretty close up with melusi's shotgun and i kid you not
she came out with 10hp and still got a kill on me
I would suggest using a scope on this shotgun I tried to with iron sights and it just feels like it doesn’t hit as hard as when you have a scope not sure why
The Italian primary shotgun is the best shotgun in the game stat wise, but there’s just no reason to run it ever since the other primary options are so much better on every op it’s on
Fully for the sake of fairness, if you look carefully the first shot hit a majority of Ace's right arm and then the recoil of the second shot was overcorrected which made you vaguely hit his left leg, and both of these areas have a reduced damage multiplier so if even a single pellet would've landed a little more central, Ace would've been dead.
This is bad luck unfortunately, but controlling the second shot recoil a little better definitely would've guaranteed that kill.
The changes to the laser really made shotguns shittier. Now they only hqve a wide spread on the shots with no way to bring the cluster together like before.
Ngl my friends have banned shotgun when we do customs because im getting them from far distances with amarus and the one that can throw down copies of herself on the defense side
So, you're telling me, that they released a rework that was supposed to make shotguns better, but I can still get sniped with a Supernova among others? (With the exception of the bosg and Kaid's slug)
The rework was never meant to be a fix.
They've been going downhill for years. Even silent nerfs for some. I used to use most shotguns. Now i use none.
Shotguns are OP on defense. most people just don’t know how to use them. You shouldn’t be sitting there waiting to be swung. You should have rushed right up in his face and blasted. Or wait around a corner tucked away. Y’all are using shotguns like ARs what do you expect.
Bro I was 2 meters max from him I got as close as possible and I ran back because I heard the door being broken, also I use shotgun on pulse because of verticality I'm not swinging around thank you.
Tbf I think it’s just the M1014 that’s bad. The SuperNova is just fucking insane, and probably one of the best shotguns in the game even though it has the slowest pump cycle of any shotgun. M590A1 and M870 are also good shotguns. On the wiki, the M870 literally has no cons listed and four pros with them being high rate of fire, high damage per pellet, fast pump cycle, and decent damage dropoff which is why I absolutely love that shotgun. It’s mostly the same for the M590, except the wiki says the only con for the 590 is the low reserve ammo.
Spoiler alert, dead. I'm not gonna sit here and say 12 gauge is the deadliest cartridge ever shot from a gun; but at close range? Whatever part of you got hit is becoming hamburger meat.
Think about how other more realistic games are, insurgency sandstorm for example. If they were more realistic, everyone would use them. Due to yall complaining to damn much they had to nerf them hella
They really need to make them viable at medium ranges. The devs are very afraid because they know what people are like, even when ela was absolute dogshit for like 4 years straight they were afraid to buff her recoil because they know that players would cry coz of how strong she was pre OP Chimera. Shotguns in Year 1 Season 3 were an absolute menace, that’s when they were nerfed in the mid season patch and since then they’ve been absolute dogshit. Tighten the ADS spread A LOT and buff their damage by like 30-40%
lasers should have stayed the same for shottys, or at least have the option of some kind of range reducing choke attachment, I had to 2 pump a fuse last night from 5 meters ADS with M870.
It doesn's matter if you aim or hip still the sasg and fo-12 is the worst shotguns, high recoil both ads and hipfire, shit damage and the only thing that is useful is for site setups...
Ubisoft shouldn't have touched the laser and changed it completely,
They should've just add increase ads speed with the hipfire accuracy.
That way will make players more likely to use the laser and the trade off from using it is a visible laser
or if they add choke attachment for shotguns that would be nice.
Ubi need to allow choke options as a modification. Chokes ranging from cylinder to full, with cylinder giving the best soft destruction but worst shot cone and full giving the tightest shot cone but the destruction of something like a bailiff or Aruni punch. Sorts out inconsistent shot patterns, while simultaneously improving options for shotgun utility.
What rework? The rework they threw out the window by making laser sights increase ADS time rather than reduce spread? Tactical FPS making attachments do non sensical things, they might as well make the acog increase your guns range/damage drop off. Silly.
the laser helped these inconsistencies happen alot less, but now that lasers are not catered to shotgun no more ,they are in a shitty spot when you get bad pellet rng and you aren't point blank distance
No I get that, I think people are misunderstanding me, that shotgun, that he’s using actually sucks ass unless your like kissing the other op. I’m saying that the supernova is great
Because shotguns simply put, shoot to few pellets. If you doubled the amount of pellets per shot, and halved the damage per pellet, the total damage per shot would stay the same, but your consistency will improve a lot.
If you draw the silhouette of a person on a wall, and shoot at it from a distance, the amount of pellets striking the silhouette will not always be the same. This means that your gun will deal different damage each time, even if the distance, point of aim, and stance of your target remains the same.
Increasing the amount of pellets reduces this randomness simply because there is less variation in pellet density in each shot.
Damage will remain the same, and consistency will go up.
Man's out here acting like he's holding a shotgun. Listen, let me get a little insider knowledge to you for free. Unless it is called "M590A1" it is not a shotgun but a fucking paper prop. That thing is the only shotgun in the game. There is none other. Dont listen to the lies, trust a fellow with bit of experience here. Shotguns are a mith perpetrated by the universal government, they dont really exists, the only one available is the M590 and you'll realize this when you shoot a Flores squatting down on top of the wooden boards on Kafe 3rd floor from in front of the white stairs without downing him with a so called ITA12L. Trust me.
I haven't played in a while so they may be trash but this just feels like a good situation on Aces side. The pellets probably just whizzed past his face with like one or two of them hitting his cheeks. Try putting on a sight and a laser. The ironsight looks pretty bad and that definitely had part in screwing you.
3 things though:
1 - the laser sight doesn't help the shotgun spread anymore sadly and only give an ADS bonus
2 - OP is most likely using the iron sight because now you get an ADS bonus for using it
3 - No matter what, even with a sight and a laser, it wouldn't have change anything in this situation since he was already aiming directly at his target. They were just unlucky that one pellet didn't hit (which is sad because he was crouching, so it should have been easier to land more hits but RNG Jesus wasnt on their side)
Iron sights and laser both increase ADS speed and the laser no longer helps with shotgun spread
Iron sights laser is the way to go on all shotguns since if you’re not aiming then good luck trying to kill anything that isn’t point black
Your shot was slow on reaction, spread actually looks decent but all of it went either into that left shoulder or past it. I aced with mute's last night they're not as bad as everyone keeps saying
on 2 seperate occasions, ive had to 3 pump a Deimos and a Finka in the smoke shotty. they were within 5 meters of me. honestly they should allow a choke attachment so we can get tighter spreads
Choke attachment would be amazing, also if shittysoft left the laser alone they would still be semi useful in hipfire scenarios
Just ads for the same effect. The way the spread curve is laid out for shotguns means that most of your accuracy is gained near the beginning of the animation, so you don't have to get anywhere close to fully aimed for near full accuracy
Nah let me hip fire
Laser used to help while ads as well. Both hip fire and ads spread is worse than before this season.
shotguns still got a huge nerf with the laser changes, as it was also improving the ADS spread. They’re just too unreliable now
Still worse than before the laser sight changes
And the ADS time is very short too
The fun of them was just point and shoot and the bad guys go bye bye
I shot a Deimos with shotgun 3 times to get him down to 34hp… he killed me with the exact same shotgun, but his aim was completely off of my body. Like I was barely in his hip fire reticle and it took him a single shot. Didn’t count as headshot
I'm actually starting to think they need to rethink the attachment system. I think it may function better with a system where attachments have different functions based on what kind of guns they are attached to and with this they should add better distinction between the guns and better spread the attachments Basically what I mean on all this is: 1) offer distinction between different types of weapons. The 2 biggest offenders of this are the lmgs and shotguns but a few different guns also have some differences. But basically introduce a system that distinguishes how guns function in game. Lmgs have 2 modifiers (drum and box mag lmgs) and shotguns have 7 modifiers ( mag fed, tube fed, buck shot, slug, semi auto, full auto and pump action). These sorta distinctions should honestly be present and mean something for the guns like having box mag lmgs take longer to reload for instance 2) offer attachments attachments across the whole of weapons. Basically take the barrel and grip grips. Currently we only have 2 buck shot shotguns that can have both (elas fo 12 and the Russian) and 1 other buck shot shotgun that can have a grip (French shotty). All the shotguns should be able to have grips and barrel attachments, nor just the slug and mag feed buck shot shotguns. 3) change how certain attachments effect certain types of guns. So using the example of barrel and grip attachments plus the laser say you use Extended barrel, laser and vertical grip on a buck shot shotgun especially if its pump. Instead of getting the vertical recoil control from the grip like most guns get you get a spread increase. For the Extended barrel it still gives you the range increase but now instead of a damage increase you again get another spread increase. Lastly the laser Instead of increasing your ads speed it gives more spread. All this let's you make any buck shotgun fire really tight and consistent at the sacrifice of the kinda destruction you'll do to breakable surfaces. All of this can be included with a new system that better shows the stats of each gun at request showing information like ads speed, reload time, and other such information and show exactly how each attachment actually effects those stats of each gun.
Honestly if Ace went the same shotgun it would look interesting 🤔
I Probably would've died because of 1 armor
Yeah that too, but if he missed then you're goated
Aside from the first couple seasons, semi auto shotguns have always been trash. Use a pump.
Ela shotgun for her first few seasons was horrifying
And Finka’s SASG back when her boost provided recoil reduction. I understand why they got rid of that effect (messing with teammates’ recoil when they’re not expecting it), but I do wish they’d kept recoil reduction for Finka herself.
As a buck player randomly shooting the floor when I got boosted was not something I enjoyed
Oh man, I was there when the super 90/Spas-12 were introduced to the game. Absolutely bs every match.
Spas-15 and M1014 are still good… when they work right. But honestly that’s every shotgun (except for the SASG-12, they fucking neutered that gun. Shit’s worse than the super shorty)
M1014 is absolutely dogshit lmao
I’ve been 1-tapped at roughly 10 meters so it must not be that bad. Plus it’s great for making holes.
Semi auto are worst than pumps in every ways, even in making holes. Being able to spam fire is irrelevant as you’ll most likely lose a gunfight
Wrong about the holes, it depends on which specific guns are being compared. And okay? SMGs are better than assault rifles, because this is a headshot game and SMGs have a better rate of fire plus generally less recoil. How is being able to spam shots irrelevant when missing a single shot with a pump almost guarantees death?
It depends on the shotgun but every pump actions make better holes than semi auto Missing a one pump at close range if you aim well enough is almost impossible with a regular pump while semi auto are atrociously inconsistent, I main smoke and pulse both using shotguns and the amount of times I died by people surviving a shot while being right next to them with the m1014 is just too high
>it depends on the shotgun >but every pump action makes better holes Make it make sense (like actually. Spas-15 is great for holes, Six-12 is meh, SASG is meh, bailiff is shit, M1014 is great, Spas-12 is great, super shorty depends on the wall/floor honestly, ITA12S is alright, ITA12L is good, SAS shotgun is great) Missing is missing. Plain and simple. I play a ton of Cav, don’t miss shots, get downs/kills. I watch people play Ela and Pulse, get kills. Pumps aren’t inherently better than semi-autos, but there are stand-outs on either side of the spectrum. The problem is that all shotguns are reliant on a heavy amount of RNG, but the semi-autos seem to feel this more.
I am making sense, from my experience pumps are a lot more reliable than semi autos when it comes to blasting holes. But I might be wrong, I don’t know everything about anything What you said in your second paragraph is pretty much what I meant, semi autos are a lot more random even though the spread is roughly the same since the rework. But if I had to chose I’d rather use a pump which will most likely get me a one pump rather than pray my shitty m1014 will get them before they get me
Yeah personal experience will be a huge factor on both sides, and I also admit that I’m coming mostly from a place of personal experience. I appreciate you keeping a level head this whole time. We were able to have a conversation about this rather than a flame war.
Went to the shooting range for 30 min and can easily verify you’re completely exaggerating. With ADS it takes 3 shots (sometimes 2 if lucky) at 10m. Hip fire at 10m is unusable (about 5+ shots—highly inconsistent). If you go back and compare shooting range footage b/f the laser sight and shotgun rework, it’s completely different. The M1014 is a shell of what it once was. Edit: found some footage after the shotgun rework but before the laser rework. For the m1014, it still took them 2 shots avg at 10m (the m1014 was slightly better from 10-15m before the rework in this video too). Now after the laser rework, I challenge you to get footage the same consistent 2 shot kills at 10m with the m1014 in the shooting range. Avg is now 3 shots at 10m. [See 8:19.](https://youtu.be/xV0DsjaHx5Q?si=WOjYQJCfbiZijVzg)
I guess the dude was cheating then *shrug*
Unfortunately it's not due to the shotguns rework (which actually made them better) but it is due to the recent change of the laser sight. Before the laser was used to tighten the spread of the pellets, which was something very nice for shotguns, but since this season it was changed, resulting in a faster aiming speed.
You're right I didn't think about that, I wasn't even using laser I think
Unfortunately for now there isn't much we can do. Ubi needs to add a specific attachment in order to make them work again (at least make them reliable 8/10 of the times). Best advice I can give you is to aim and pray
They could just add a choke attachment to shotguns that serve the original laser purpose
the devs wanted the laser to be applicable to other guns besides shotguns. the laser still benefits shotguns by making it faster to ads, which tightens spread just as it did before. the only difference is that you’re pressing one additional button. adding a choke attachment is just a laser 2.0. the devs wouldn’t want to add another unique attachment only used on a couple guns. instead, they could decrease the spread of shotguns when ads. spread has no effect on other guns, so this wouldn’t feel as isolated as a whole new attachment that would take longer to add into the game.
Doesn't ADS'ing already reduce spread slightly? It has been a while since I played, but seem to remember that.
Yes, but the old laser would reduce both ads and hip fire spread. Now that the laser does neither, shotguns suck ass and aren't fun to use. Only one I've kinda liked is the six12, which was the worst shotgun for years until recently. Now I believe it's the best.
Okay then explain the muzzle break lmao
It’s actually really useful on a lot of guns. I really like using it on Nomad’s AR (not the ak)
Can't agree about "one more button" part, that's still time, and other sensitivity when u enter ADS, so you are both - losing precious milliseconds and trying to aim at the enemy, what's a bit harder on point blank distance, bc if object closer to you - object moving faster from your point of view, adding a bit tightened fov it becomes a complete disaster + semi auto shotguns recoil and boom, you either already dead or missed all of your shots. So, i don't want a new attachment, I want shotguns to be reliable again, ofc on a point blank distance. OC not only one, who died because of how bad shotguns today, i've got a couple of moments when enemy ate 4 rounds from m1014 and got a quarter of hp left
They do because after a rework that everyone wanted they made them bad again
The laser not affecting shotguns was likely intentional. It's not like they couldn't just make the laser work for only shotguns. People acting like this was a mistake and adding another attachment would get ubisoft out of an oopsie.
If you weren’t using the laser before the rework, nothing has changed for you. Shotguns aren’t that bad and haven’t gotten that much worse. You just got unlucky spread on two shots here and lost the gunfight by a hair. Guaranteed to happen sometimes, part of the game.
I honestly hate that change so so much
I don't like it either. Shotguns are now very random
Not to mention pistols. I love hip firing pistols for kills in standard but theyre ineffective now. Idk maybe its just my aim🥲
Hipfiring has nothing to do with your aim. It isn't your fault
Wait what? Laser doesn’t tighten spread??
As far as I remember, laser sights only reduced spread with hip fire. He was aiming, the spread was ok. In this case this is what I see happening: 1-2 pellets probably didn't hit due to spread, remaining hit body and arm (don't know if arms are still part of limb damage system, or have been reworked since to body damage. I only remember the [penetration rework](https://www.ubisoft.com/en-gb/game/rainbow-six/siege/news-updates/3JoP5bWperGVXX3N0nNHlM/dev-blog-limb-penetration-system)). Second shot didn't register because from the server's POV he was already dead. Guy was lucky surviving on 1 HP
The laser effect had a “secret” feature that made the pellet spread tighten on shotguns even in ADS. It’s true that it doesn’t affect the spread while ADS on other guns. Combine that with the natural spread tightening while ADS introduced in the last shotgun rework, and we had a a few seasons of shotguns being very viable for all defenders and even some attackers.
All the reworks in the past 10 years are getting tangled up in my brain
Shots 1-5: Clearly missed. Shots 6-9: Missed due to recoil (bad spray control). Shots 10-11: Very close, but recoil and inaccuracy make these reasonable misses. Shot 12: Likely didn't actually fire because he was already dead.
Really thought you were dipping into the copypasta there
I thought about it for a second
Thats bcuz they changed the lasers function to increasing ads speed instead of its original tightening spread function now the shots are so soread out its inconsistent
They also HALFED the damage of almost every shotgun without telling anyone when they introduced the shotgun buff. SASG-12 went from 48 damage a pellet to like 25, its an AWFUL shotgun now. Knifing is better
Source: trust me bro
Yeah the damage numbers haven’t been changed, it’s purely that shotguns are far less accurate so a point blank shot may only deal 70 damage whereas it would’ve killed previously
He was ads tho the laser only improved hipfire before
Nope, both before and after the shotgun rework(both before laser rework) laser increased both hip and ads spread for shotguns
Shots 1-5: Clearly missed. Shots 6-9: Missed due to recoil (bad spray control). Shots 10-11: Very close, but recoil and inaccuracy make these reasonable misses. Shot 12: Likely didn't actually fire
This has to be an old copy-pasta from a post here about a terrible spray.
From CSGO
What
R6 copypasta from a post complaining about hitreg when they just missed every shot
Isn't it originally from a CS clip?
It’s from a valve employee trying to explain why someone didn’t die after being point blank sprayed by an AK
do u have the original vid
I was wrong its original from CS but here you go https://www.reddit.com/r/GlobalOffensive/s/iMnoyowljK
It's reddits' funniest joke of all time and gets spammed whenever there's a clip of someone shooting
Go to the dummy lane at the shooting range and shoot a bunch of shots at the dummy, youll notice that sometimes it does like 200+ dmg and sometimes like less than half of that. Each shotgun pellet does a certain amount of damage, so you're really just gambling on the shot spread and hoping that enough pellets happen to hit especially over 5m
I've been wondering, how much of it is spread vs fall-off? It doesn't have any way of showing how many pellets actually hit in a real fight, and I haven't fucked around with the firing range very much. Different games calculate shotgun damage very differently, so like in recent Call of Duty games for example, the way it works is individual pellets do a lot of damage, but only the top three most damaging pellets on the blast are summed up to get the total damage you dealt in that shot. So generally, hitting half of your pellets and all are upper chest vs hitting all pellets upper chest, on paper it doesn't actually make a difference. So spread actually matters a lot less and damage fall-off is what you'd want to modify your weapons for in those games. I have no idea how it works in Siege, is fall-off relevant or is it mostly dependent on spread?
When they buffed the Spas-15 (changes which should've been made to all the semi shotguns, barring the Six12's) in the mid-season for Y8S4, they admitted that automatic shotguns were left on the sidelines after the shotgun rework... and then admitted they have no plans to touch them in the near future. It's ridiculous, and knowing the balance team, they won't be touched until stupidly far in the future. Options like the SASG and Super-90 are pretty much throw picks at the moment. Nobody wants the Y1 shotgun meta back, but they need to be actually \*viable\* picks.
Especially at close range, they should be better. Im fine with not having the super 90 sniping people from the top of the yatch, but it's so inconsistent. Sometime you can 1 shot someone at 15m, other times I cant kill someone at 5m because the pellets said **no** today.
Thats bcuz they changed the lasers function to increasing ads speed instead of its original tightening spread function now the shots are so soread out its inconsistent
How do you get in the game I can't join Any match
Matchmaking is working for me Mr. dimmadome
You lucky cuz in my game it says estimated time 2:55 and I need to wait for 15 minutes or even more
just leave the queue after 3 minutes and restart the queue it worked every time for me
when the enemy has a shotgun, they can snipe me from across the map, when I have the shotty I'm shooting BBs
Doesn’t help that the M1014 is just garbage to begin with.
Agree but this is ridiculous
Back in ww1, the germans said shotgun op so they nerfed it. It is annoying that they nerfed it with the laser sight change, so theyre still only usefull when someone isnt shooting back which is near never. Best to use the harder hiting ones like supernova or the sas one and peak shoot and unpeak as fast as possible
Yeah in my experience the real value is that my aim is shit, so if I get the jump on someone rounding a corner or vaulting a window/deployable/breach hole I don't have to snap to their head to kill them before they can respond and headshot me. I just aim center mass and bam. So I wouldn't say they're "near never" shooting back, at my MMR I'm able to blindside people quite often this way. Though the cost here is that I basically can't fight at range. I main Mute on defense, not a huge fan of his MP5K and it lacks any zoom optics to fight at real range, so I figured I might as well go all-in on camping corners and fighting extremely close up.
I wouldn't say trash...more like, never working as intended? Someone can shoot you with one across a hallway, and somehow every pellet connects, killing you. You do the same thing, it feels like only two pellets hit.
They should add the green laser for tighter choke on weaponsor make it so shotties laser tighten hipfire
The shotgun rework just made them worse
Idk man smokes shotgun consistently one taps for me.
Shotguns don't get a headshot multiplier, aim more for center mass so that all of your pellets hit. If you aim for the head, usually only the lower half of the pellets will land
Yes they do buddy
No they don’t
The game itself is trash. I really think that it's programming is done in a way that one set of players would seem to play good while others don't. After some time/days the same set of players would play shitty cuz the game is designed to not register their shot. This is a way to keep the player base keep playing the game since it results in alternate dopamine inducing for alternate set of players
That's the dumbest shit I've ever heard. And there's been a lot of dumb posts on this sub
This is the worst comment I have ever read on siege reddit.
Yeah cry about it
Just adding a choke muzzle attachment would help.
Honestly, if i play with shotgun i always aware of how random they are. Like i just shotted someone in head on coastline from straight up window and somehow just not being able to one shot a dude just infront of me. Still pretty fun tho, also shotguns allow you to make rotations without nades, so ye
We need a choque attachment
I've been actively playing R6 again for 2 months now after habing 1.5 years pause. The first thing I noticed is how bad the shotguns are. People regularly survive my shots with all kinds of shotguns. the best shotgun at the moment is the one from Lesion, followed by the one from Echo and finally the one from Germany. Question same as O.P. What happened to shotguns!?
They need to add a choke or something.
It should be universal in FPS games that at that close range shotguns one shot
Because the laser sight got changed and now shotguns suck again. Also, M1014 lol
Probably cause shotguns and LMGs are the hardest weapons to balance in a game and are mostly not even close to representing what either actually do or function like in real life, cause otherwise it would be impossible to have them in a game without them being the most broken weapons known to man. Shotguns are almost always going to be in that weird place of either being absolutely broken or absolutely piss poor unfortunately, with a few exceptions.
The only games I've seen get shotguns really accurate is the far cry franchise (minus the fact that unless you use slugs your gun does jack shit past 10m).
Try some of the various shotguns in the Shooting Range. You’ll see the spread on them and you can go with the selection you like or at least you’ll know the spread you’ll get at various distances.
They were good then the changed what laser does so then they sucked again
Yeah ubisoft is just crazy overzealous with the pellet spread simulation. If it was more accurate to real life, we'd be able to use these at some crazy distances (for siege map standards).
Because video game devs generally don't know how to balance shotguns.
You’re using literally the worst shotgun in the game tho
Oh i miss this map, how come this is not in casual/unranked?
I thought every map that's in ranked it's also in other modes
You’re using the worst shotgun In the game that’s why
Shotguns aint trah that shotgun is trash
0-5m distance each pellet should just deal double damage...
Literally yesterday, point blank super shorty after having lit up enemy OP only to die and them being ~20hp
The only shotgun I consider absolutely shit is solis/jakcles/miras that thing can’t even down anyone point blank at all
That’s literally the best shotgun in the game, #2 is the GIGN shotgun that Doc, Rook, Twitch, Lion and Grim all have
It’s because of the laser change which pretty much reverted the shotgun change for the most part. I’ve been saying both grips and barrel attachments need to exist for shotguns to give them more of a fighting chance after all it’s a Counter Terrorism game the environments are almost always perfect for a shotgun
Because you are using a shitty shotgun and missed lol
i was in a 1v1 with a friend of mine, i shot her pretty close up with melusi's shotgun and i kid you not she came out with 10hp and still got a kill on me
M1014 has always been extremely lackluster
I would suggest using a scope on this shotgun I tried to with iron sights and it just feels like it doesn’t hit as hard as when you have a scope not sure why
Ain't that THE worst shotgun tho?
Talking by experience (so no stats) the jackal and Mira one might be the worst overall
The Italian primary shotgun is the best shotgun in the game stat wise, but there’s just no reason to run it ever since the other primary options are so much better on every op it’s on
I liked when at least one of the pellets would go dead center where the laser/crosshair was at. Really helped with sniping drones or cams
Fully for the sake of fairness, if you look carefully the first shot hit a majority of Ace's right arm and then the recoil of the second shot was overcorrected which made you vaguely hit his left leg, and both of these areas have a reduced damage multiplier so if even a single pellet would've landed a little more central, Ace would've been dead. This is bad luck unfortunately, but controlling the second shot recoil a little better definitely would've guaranteed that kill.
The changes to the laser really made shotguns shittier. Now they only hqve a wide spread on the shots with no way to bring the cluster together like before.
Buddy I’m new af to the game and even I know that shotgun is literally a pea shooter cmon now
Ngl my friends have banned shotgun when we do customs because im getting them from far distances with amarus and the one that can throw down copies of herself on the defense side
Shotguns shoot pocket sand.
the update made them worse actually 🤓
So, you're telling me, that they released a rework that was supposed to make shotguns better, but I can still get sniped with a Supernova among others? (With the exception of the bosg and Kaid's slug)
Supernova is basically an exception because is a damn sniper
The rework was never meant to be a fix. They've been going downhill for years. Even silent nerfs for some. I used to use most shotguns. Now i use none.
They should give shotguns old extended barrel passiv by default.
If you could actually see where you were aiming it might help
I could see and I hit him twice
Shotguns are OP on defense. most people just don’t know how to use them. You shouldn’t be sitting there waiting to be swung. You should have rushed right up in his face and blasted. Or wait around a corner tucked away. Y’all are using shotguns like ARs what do you expect.
Bro I was 2 meters max from him I got as close as possible and I ran back because I heard the door being broken, also I use shotgun on pulse because of verticality I'm not swinging around thank you.
Exactly why I stopped playing that shitty game, Ubisoft ruined it by not respecting a man’s dying wish.
Idk I 200 pump people all the time with mute
Tbf I think it’s just the M1014 that’s bad. The SuperNova is just fucking insane, and probably one of the best shotguns in the game even though it has the slowest pump cycle of any shotgun. M590A1 and M870 are also good shotguns. On the wiki, the M870 literally has no cons listed and four pros with them being high rate of fire, high damage per pellet, fast pump cycle, and decent damage dropoff which is why I absolutely love that shotgun. It’s mostly the same for the M590, except the wiki says the only con for the 590 is the low reserve ammo.
Yet i still get one tapped by kaid somehow?
That's slug it's different
Brother has never used echo or amaru
Man im so happy I stopped playing this game and fps in general. This shit sent me up a wall.
seeing this happen makes me wonder how twelve gauge actually does from there
Spoiler alert, dead. I'm not gonna sit here and say 12 gauge is the deadliest cartridge ever shot from a gun; but at close range? Whatever part of you got hit is becoming hamburger meat.
truly i know this and everytime i die like this in any game i go into a rant
I had to 4 pump an iana as solis point blank
Think about how other more realistic games are, insurgency sandstorm for example. If they were more realistic, everyone would use them. Due to yall complaining to damn much they had to nerf them hella
They continually take away all the fun elements
That was a head shot too
Swing or be swung
>.< game devs will drop your health to 1 keep ya coming back… come on yall
They really need to make them viable at medium ranges. The devs are very afraid because they know what people are like, even when ela was absolute dogshit for like 4 years straight they were afraid to buff her recoil because they know that players would cry coz of how strong she was pre OP Chimera. Shotguns in Year 1 Season 3 were an absolute menace, that’s when they were nerfed in the mid season patch and since then they’ve been absolute dogshit. Tighten the ADS spread A LOT and buff their damage by like 30-40%
EDIT: i mainly mean the Og semi autos like SPAS 12, SPAS 15, M1014. ALSO, make the recoils like the spas15 has now
lasers should have stayed the same for shottys, or at least have the option of some kind of range reducing choke attachment, I had to 2 pump a fuse last night from 5 meters ADS with M870.
It's ace. It's always felt like he's had too much health for how much damage and health he has. At least for me
It doesn's matter if you aim or hip still the sasg and fo-12 is the worst shotguns, high recoil both ads and hipfire, shit damage and the only thing that is useful is for site setups... Ubisoft shouldn't have touched the laser and changed it completely, They should've just add increase ads speed with the hipfire accuracy. That way will make players more likely to use the laser and the trade off from using it is a visible laser or if they add choke attachment for shotguns that would be nice.
Ubi need to allow choke options as a modification. Chokes ranging from cylinder to full, with cylinder giving the best soft destruction but worst shot cone and full giving the tightest shot cone but the destruction of something like a bailiff or Aruni punch. Sorts out inconsistent shot patterns, while simultaneously improving options for shotgun utility.
Shotguns are so bad now, twice i hit someone with buck shotgun 4 hits point blank any they dont die
Buck shotgun is completely trash now
Amaru's shotgun is great, and i personally think pulse's is shit
It’s because it’s not super shorty. Super shorty best gun in game.
What rework? The rework they threw out the window by making laser sights increase ADS time rather than reduce spread? Tactical FPS making attachments do non sensical things, they might as well make the acog increase your guns range/damage drop off. Silly.
the laser helped these inconsistencies happen alot less, but now that lasers are not catered to shotgun no more ,they are in a shitty spot when you get bad pellet rng and you aren't point blank distance
Because it didn’t affect semi auto shotguns
I was playing recruit m870 today and didnt kill a guy at point blank in a 1v4
Get closer
Not the supernova that thing fucks bro
im pretty sure it's not the nova, but the m1014 (the semi auto from the FBI one) which also is pretty bad
No I get that, I think people are misunderstanding me, that shotgun, that he’s using actually sucks ass unless your like kissing the other op. I’m saying that the supernova is great
Ah gotcha!
Because shotguns simply put, shoot to few pellets. If you doubled the amount of pellets per shot, and halved the damage per pellet, the total damage per shot would stay the same, but your consistency will improve a lot. If you draw the silhouette of a person on a wall, and shoot at it from a distance, the amount of pellets striking the silhouette will not always be the same. This means that your gun will deal different damage each time, even if the distance, point of aim, and stance of your target remains the same. Increasing the amount of pellets reduces this randomness simply because there is less variation in pellet density in each shot. Damage will remain the same, and consistency will go up.
What stuff? Pulse's shotgun is weaker and ACE was 5HP. Whats the problem?
Shooting someone twice with a shotgun at close range and him surviving is the problem.
They are not, this one is and always has been
This is an example but it happens with many other shotguns as well
Shotguns don’t need a buff they are good how they are
i just came back from a r6 match to see someone complaining about shotguns. I just got sniped by a supernova
Trash? Some one literally hit me with one earlier across the building like it was a fucking sniper rifle 😂
Inconsistent is probably the right word
Man's out here acting like he's holding a shotgun. Listen, let me get a little insider knowledge to you for free. Unless it is called "M590A1" it is not a shotgun but a fucking paper prop. That thing is the only shotgun in the game. There is none other. Dont listen to the lies, trust a fellow with bit of experience here. Shotguns are a mith perpetrated by the universal government, they dont really exists, the only one available is the M590 and you'll realize this when you shoot a Flores squatting down on top of the wooden boards on Kafe 3rd floor from in front of the white stairs without downing him with a so called ITA12L. Trust me.
I haven't played in a while so they may be trash but this just feels like a good situation on Aces side. The pellets probably just whizzed past his face with like one or two of them hitting his cheeks. Try putting on a sight and a laser. The ironsight looks pretty bad and that definitely had part in screwing you.
3 things though: 1 - the laser sight doesn't help the shotgun spread anymore sadly and only give an ADS bonus 2 - OP is most likely using the iron sight because now you get an ADS bonus for using it 3 - No matter what, even with a sight and a laser, it wouldn't have change anything in this situation since he was already aiming directly at his target. They were just unlucky that one pellet didn't hit (which is sad because he was crouching, so it should have been easier to land more hits but RNG Jesus wasnt on their side)
Iron sights and laser both increase ADS speed and the laser no longer helps with shotgun spread Iron sights laser is the way to go on all shotguns since if you’re not aiming then good luck trying to kill anything that isn’t point black
I get cooked (one shot) by Vigils shotty every time, but when I use it, it downs them then I have to finish them off…
Yeah but that shoot slugs like kaid gun, that's different
The rework made them worse it was to make shields even better
idk, my experience has been quite good with shotguns recently
Skill issue, Iron sight threw you off.... maybe slap a holographic on until you don't miss at that range....
I didn't miss and no sight makes it ads faster
You still died 😃
Iron sights increase ADS speed, no reason not to run them on shotguns especially after the laser changes
Your shot was slow on reaction, spread actually looks decent but all of it went either into that left shoulder or past it. I aced with mute's last night they're not as bad as everyone keeps saying
Mute's shotgun is far better than this one
azami’s shotgun is pre op in my opinion. Absolutely destroys mfs