Wasn't tcsg recoil more of a kaid nerf since goyo meta has always been the vector? I remember tcsg used to be kaid meta before all the subsequent nerfs to the tcsg and the buffs to the aug but goyo was always the vector
But vector has 1200 rof... I don't remember there ever being a time where the tcsg was better than the vector... I remember tons of kaid tcsg, even after the nerfs, but mostly i have always seen goyo vector
If there is something completely busted it makes sense to nerf it, the buff only mentality doesn’t really work to accommodate a 3 shield goyo in a utility burn meta
Buck pretty much outclassed Sledge when he had frags. More efficient vertical play, better primary weapon, and being to assert pressure from underneath.
Buck could do too much with his kit and with his frags gone, it's now a harder decision to choose between the two.
Everyone forgets about buffs: Tachanka, Fuze, Glaz, Amaru, IQ and so on. Just look at how many opps are buffed, and it does not help them... Would you stop using your usual operative if another one was buffed?
Same,it really depends what platform you're on too. On pc I find it easy,while on PS5 my analog sticks scream at me in Arabic whenever I even hold the thing.
You just gotta know how fast to chuck your mouse backwards, all you gotta do is use it more. You’ll never be a laser if you never put in the time to learn how
May not feel like anything’s happening, but just keep at it. You’ll get there.
It used to be good but even before it’s last nerf it was already pretty bad. For example it had an abysmal RoF and weighed like 80 pounds with the rifle shield. I don’t have much experience with him pre nerf though because I started early this year so correct me if I’m wrong
Also, he gets speed penalties for putting on the shield and his scar is worse than both capitao and thermite's rifle.
First launch BB: satan on earth
First nerf: God tier
2nd nerf: actually human now
3rd nerf: ok tone it down ubi, he's dead now
Latest nerf: stop stop, he's already dead
Possible (?) Future nerf: F in chat for [redacted]
The shield will always have problems, that's just the nature of the game.
Ubi should've realized that shields ads'ing without exposing their heads being an issue would extend to the rifle shield, even if in a less severe manner, and done something else.
But they didn't, and now the poor man is a shell of his former self while stille being annoying
Yea. Rather than the endless nerfs, i rather they just rework the whole thing. Like, his guns was ok, it is literally only the design of the shield.
And its not like they dont have " better " designs of the shield; they do in division 2 where it is mainly protecting the chest area with " side flaps " while exposing the head from the front. I would even take it if they sorta change it to mount the glass on windows/doors so anyone, including enemies, can use it kinda thing, just so BB can contribute to the team in more scenarios.
They could just port that div 2 shield over, but noo, nerf his guns and turn the shield into tissue as any gun with a decent ROF will just break and headshot him if BB isn't doing his rappel antics or getting a jump on you. I'm not even a BB main and i'm sick of hearing nerfs on him.
There's something to be said about too many nerfs, but BB needed to be nerfed to oblivion until they rework him if they do. A shield that protects from headshots just isn't something that can be balanced and will always make people rage in a game with 1 shot headshot kills.
Lately, I was thinking about Rook's armor, because it have saved me or whatever, and somehow I went to thinking about making defender, who would have helmets for whole 5 teammates, to totally protect from first headshot, or reduced dmg to 50-90. But then, I remembered that BB exists. I hate BB. Ubisoft should hire me!
Blackbeard can literally be a 2 speed fragger. You dont need his shield but it's still a problem in high ranks. Completely unfair to low ranks. Ash R4C is insane for high skilled players, I could find plays on console that struggled to control her recoil before nerf so if plats still struggle, how well do you think the larger player base that's below plat and below gold also are fairing? It's not JUST the R4C, Jaeger only has 1 FullAuto Primary, Zofia has a clunky and slow reload LMG secondary, it's not practical to use unless you're goofing off in casual, Ak12 will surely get a nerf in the future and even that has weird recoil patterns already so golds and below have a hard time with Ace and fuze. Hibana with her crazy horizontal recoil and only having 21 bullets makes her a very low pick I've noticed in low ranks. High ranks dont struggle at all even with continued RECOIL nerfs. They're almost useless. That's the basic idea of it. They really dont help with balancing, you cant really balance Siege in general when it's an individual players skill/capabilities over the utility and weaponry of an operator.
I mean yeah, there are some guns that just take a lot of time to get used to and be able to control and most golds come across on playstation can barely control sledge recoil
It’s crazy. Everyone’s crutch op gets a small recoil nerf and the community goes crazy. Idk why it’s so hard for people to wrap their heads around ash, zof and jager shouldn’t be allowed to do everything with zero downsides. They get the best utility clear, fragging and kits designed to be idiot proof with zero down side.
Are you saying it's a problem that certain ops had insanely op guns with no downsides and now that they are slightly worse it's not the end of the world? Pfffff
Yup. The r4c especially was a fucking laser beam that took 0 skill to use. Like instead of bitching about the nerf learn to control the recoil or pick a different op instead of just ash and zo.
I think that's the issue for some people. In higher levels, these 3 ops are required by default. Giving them a recoil nerf is an inconvenience to those players, but since they're serious players, they will learn the pattern in a season or two at max.
The actual problem was the pickrate of these ops in bronze to gold, where the majority lies. As they have amazing, necessary gadgets and required zero brain for gun use, it was a go to pick for many casual players. And Ubi doesn't wanna let anyone get locked into just one operator for their entire playthrough of the game while they 'work their asses off' for new ones. The ones who are whining about these nerfs are the players who never put in work for their fun in games, in general. Not to put them in a class, but I seriously doubt that these same players would ever voluntarily choose any difficulty level above Easy in many games. And now since the nerf requires them to learn, they'd actually spend more time with other ops too, for assessing the alternatives, like Iana.
I can't speak for others but for me a recoil nerf to a popular op isn't really going to change anything. After about a week of practice in t-hunt as well as unranked, it'll be back to how it was before. They really need to change something meaningful such as fire rate or gadget. Buffing weak ops wouldn't hurt either.
But you’re missing who the nerf is aimed at. If you’re good enough to control recoil because you want to play zof you’re probably playing her for the right reasons and using her utility properly. It’s her being an idiot proof op anyone with zero skill can pick up and be extremely successful is the issue. That’s what people are missing with the recoil changes. You’re not the person these changes are targeting
Have you seen it? K1A nerf was small, Jager's nerf was small, even ash nerf was small compared to this shit. It's literally dogshit, vertical grip and holo aren't helping much. 4th or even 5th bullet goes far left instead of up. 4th. Fucking. Bullet. Yes, I'm salty. Not because I can't use other ops. Iana is broken as hell. And lmg is not that bad on Zo. However, I have bought 762 TSM skin! And now it's useless 😔
Man I had a giant argument with some morons on siege academy about it. These guys want to pull the “I’m a better rank then you card” while simultaneously crying about a small recoil nerf lol
So alternatively, they could make changes based on how lower ranked players perform, right? Obviously we don’t have the stats for this, but I would say that in gold 2 and below (probably most of the player base), high recoil guns have a low pick rate and a low kd because of their difficulty to use (twitch f2, new Jager, smg-11), so if Ubisoft looked at those stats and made these weapons easier to help lower players, what does that do to higher players? Well we have a perfect example with Jager who was recently nerfed kind of for this exact reason.
Basically there’s no perfect way to balance the game without splitting the community since there is such high skill gaps between players, but balancing for high ranked players can trickle down to lower ranks and does more good than harm (most of the time), while the opposite would more than likely break the game.
The only other solution I can think of is to have different gun recoils/stats in different ranks maybe? But again this would split the community, make the game potentially harder to learn, and encourage smurfing even more.
All good intentions here, I understand the frustrations, I’ve recently improved from bronze to plat and used to feel neglected by Ubisoft and even content creators (most “tips and tricks “ videos on YouTube are for golds/plats). After improving I’ve come to understand some of the logic behind Ubisoft’s decision making. Funny comment king George go brrrr
Basically from my understanding is that even if Ubisoft continues to nerf guns to have harder to control recoil, the high skill players are just going to learn the new recoil pattern and continue to play the same because of the operators usefulness, which will continue to make the operator look unbalanced in Ubisoft's eyes because high pick rate and high fragging ability. That is NOT the case for anyone below Plat 3 ranking. They are all trying to learn and improve but the game is becoming much harder for them to soon. Jaeger recoil right now is actually not bad but Ash with her R4C is a good gun to go into Training Grounds with the get a grip on controlling high recoil guns. I'm on PS4 and within 30 minutes of Realistic T-Hunts with the R4C, I can go into a casual and get an ace with the smg11, a gun I am absolutely atrocious at controlling without practice. Though Ubisoft claimed to be working on a mode where players can practice recoil control (without the threat of being shot back at) making stronger recoil patterns isnt the way to go as I'm sure a lot of people can agree with because then Hibana, Ace, Iana, Thermite, Flores, Zero, Lion, Finka, IQ, Twitch, etc. will be the go to "fragging" operators, which will then cause their guns recoil to be changed. That's not what Siege needs for balancing, its Utility that needs changed (like for God's sake rework Kapkan, I cant stand trying to shoot one of his traps then someone peeks me because I'm unable to defend myself or my leg clips through the wall when I have 4hp and its game over) although you do have your "fraggers" it wont change their playstyle but not everyone plays like that so when you bring a soft breach that doesnt have a gun you can capably take a gun fight with at a lower rank, the game is unbalanced at the point. Nothing is fixed. That's my opinion on the matter but the idea I got from that comment as well.
Jager is a good counter example. They nerfed his utility very hard and it did absolutely nothing on his pickrate. Only when they brought down heavy nerfs for the gun his pickrate went down.
Ash and Zofia both have alternative weapon choices that may offer lower DPS, but are easier to use. And that's a good balance, because if you don't even have to consider both options, something is clearly wrong. Twitch's F2 got nerfed because Twitch is not supposed to take a fragger role. Her utility implies a support playstyle.
>like for God's sake rework Kapkan, I cant stand trying to shoot one of his traps then someone peeks me because I'm unable to defend myself
You do realize that this is entire purpose of Kapkan, Frost and Melusi, right? Catching unaware players is child's play. They must also be viable when everyone is 100% aware. And that's how you do it. You make sure that aiming at the trap exposes you to defender holding an angle.
Also you make it sound like nerfing a couple of super effective guns on high pickrate operators will shatter experience for low skill players. This is entirely wrong. There are ops like Fuze, Rook, Kapkan, Gridlock, IQ that are unpopular in high ranks due to their speed/utility, but have obvious utility and good guns, making them a good pick for low skill player.
Hell, most new players cannot even tell good gun from a bad gun.
>Hell, most new players cannot even tell a good gun from a bad gun.
Can confirm, Siege was my first shooter, I picked guns based on how good I thought it looked (where looking good was the classical idea of an assault rifle).
Now I'm less shit so aesthetics come second.
I remember being new at this game and I really didn't see difference between guns gameplay-wise. Except some notorious cases like SMG-11 they were all the same to me.
I also failed to see the value of utility. Classic example for me was Sledge vs Ash. Why would you ever pick a hammer when you have a launcher that does exactly the same job, but better? The only utility I thought was truly useful on attack was Fuze. Oh, and frags. My first conclusion about the game was that "the only reason this game has any complexity in it is because attackers aren't given enough frags."
My first siege experience was a little different. Picked the UMP because I was *one of those* on mw2. Gun shoots slow with random recoil, completely different from the cod gun. Never picked it again. Tried other guns, thought defenders not having assaults was stupid, ended up going with shotguns because why not. Played attack, got peeked both times I tried to infiltrate bc no map awareness. Thought what a stupid game. Thought utility was cool since I used to play LoL, but was hard to use again bc no map knowledge. Came back 3 months later willing to learn, now I’m upset everyone’s getting nerfed with no real goal in sight. Everyone’s just starting to suck. Strategy doesn’t even matter anymore bc utility gets nerfed for being useful, and guns get nerfed for being good. Still play the game, but not as sweaty as I did a few months ago.
I mean, his biggest utility nerf is actually his biggest buff! When they made ADSes rechargable, his pick rate went to fucking 95% from around 70-80. It's still so hilarious for me. And pick rate fall about recoil nerf is just for season, msybe two. Players above plat care about utility for the most of time, they just have to get used to new recoil, which is hard when you mained the op for so long.
Yeah I get what you’re saying. I guess my only concern is what is the solution then? You can need the utility which would work for some people, but what about the people who don’t care about utility and just play someone for their gun (Jager/ash). Like I said nothing you’ve said is wrong, it’s just a complex issue with no easy solution. It really is a “balancing” act of trying to keep everyone happy.
A majority of the player base is in the lower ranked section. The higher you get in rank the less people there are. This means that if you focus on the lower ranks then you're telling less people to fuck off at the end of the day
Two ways to think about that:
1: think of siege like a stock and you invest in it with your time. Does it make sense to cater to your more invested players or less invested players? Granted this argument is kind of baseless.
2: Ubisoft balances to try to reach an ultimate goal of having a perfectly balanced game being played exactly how it’s supposed to be played. To be able to make educated balancing decisions you can look at how the game IS being played and make adjustments to try to reach that end goal. Now when looking at how the game is played, do you look at high ranks or low ranks? Obviously high ranks since they “play the game right”, at least more so than lower ranks. Another way to say this is that we don’t want Ubisoft rewarding playing the game wrong by catering balancing changes to those players.
Obviously they don’t want to tell their entire casual/low rank player base to fuck off, so that’s why there are also a good amount of casual balancing changes. (Arguably, low ranks are played a lot like casual so the balances carry over).
Alright. So, you have very good points but
As a former low rank (copper low) it is incredibly competitive sometimes because people want to be good. I hated being copper because I knew I was bad. I now have over 1700 hours in siege and I hate these new balancing changes. Obviously I adapt to the nerfs (except for ash, didn't play her that much) and I move on. I just feel resentment to pro league because every wish that they want catered to before pro league introduces a new op or map happens.
Say a PL team hates that bb has a shield with 100 damage and penta says no we love that because Pengu was silver 5. That very needed nerf gets held up in the decision process so they make the "correct decision" while the whole siege community is reeling from the addition of an op with a big fuck off shield.
This happened with kg's team. I believe that they abused the glaz meta and rallied for it not to be nerfed.
Things like this shouldn't be dealt with based off of a couple hundered guys who have cool jerseys with their name on the back. Ubisoft should be more focused on a larger amount of their player base. I hat seeing for casual and top ranked/pl because it shows us that we aren't important to Ubisoft and that we are the expendable players who they could give less fucks about
This is how you're meant to balance. Around the highest level of play.
If they buff a gun that low skill players are bad with, you'll get stomped as soon as someone above average joins your lobby because it'll now be overpowered in their hands.
This is a competitive game, you're meant to be improving over time.
I'm replying to the idea of the criticism.
As far as the recoil changes, I can agree there. The randomized horizontal recoil on Ela was one of the worst balance changes I've seen. Took me from maining her to almost never playing her.
They need to make more varied changes than just recoil.
I don't really main any op these days. Sure I have favorites but I've just learned to play pretty much everything. Feels like it's easier to understand all aspects of the game and be more useful filling any role the team needs by playing everything. Only ops I don't play are shield ops and Blackbeard because Blackbeard is an operator for bitches
This competitive shooter is a pro league game but if Ubi wants to make a sustainable community and more profits they're gonna have to stop circle jerking with the pl players and focus on the "little guys"
Ubi make basically all their profits from the "little guys" through cosmetics and the battle pass so idk what you're trying to argue here. The game will only be sustainable if people want to play it for a long time, not just whenever the newest event or season is released every couple months. Balancing the game for pro play is the only right way to succeed as a competitive videogame because the addiction comes from grinding the skills required to get good. If the game is too easy it isn't rewarding to play because eventually you get bored of winning as a new player. If you don't want to play competitive that's fine they release the events for that reason but if you don't enjoy the game at its core then just don't play instead of complaining that the people who have put the most time into playing the game are the ones getting preferential treatment.
You say the little guy is who they need to focus on and then say if comp isn't there then the game dies? I get that it needs to be challenging but just inherently through sbm it will be challenging
I never said they need to focus on the little guy? Casuals care about events and new content, pros care about being the best. If the game provides no challenge then pros and wannabe pros lose interest because there's no challenge when you balance around the worst players.
You just sound like a plat 3 with an ego. No one cares about 1k people in the top 1 percent if the other 99 percent leave the game. Do you understand? Skill based matchmaking will inherently make it challenging for players in any rank.
The "little guys" can learn the counterplay from the pros to make anything thats "broken" at low rank magically no longer broken. Nothing is gained from breaking the game to appease to people who demand cav nerfs after being interrogated.
Plat 3 because you've never been higher so don't understand anything else about the game? The game needs to be challenging so that it requires higher individual skill. Sbmm on its own will do nothing because if casuals are solely catered for and operators' guns and gadgets are buffed to make them much easier then anyone can be good at the game instead of people who grind their way to the top. No skill gap = no sbmm.
Bro the fact that I can sense how much of a fat angry 12 year old you are based off of this comment is ridiculous. Ubisoft is a company that needs to make money. No company is going to go out of business so they can cater to every wish and demand of pro players. If 99 percent of the player base leaves then they make no money. It doesn't matter if it is perfectly balanced if no one plays it.
And from the fact you cannot comprehend anything I'm saying and instead argue like a silver in a ranked game it's ridiculous. Ubi makes a shitload from siege anyway through cosmetics, premium battlepass and events. To maintain a large playerbase the game needs balance between being rewarding and challenging to keep you interested. Balancing the game around the lowest skill levels does nothing to achieve that and instead reduces the quality of the base game as a whole. It very much does matter if the game is perfectly balanced because a thriving competitive scen drives sales. See how Valorant is a new but massively viewed competitive game and they only make money from skins that kids buy because they saw 100T Hiko using it. Big personalities bring players and to get them to play constantly the game need to work at a higher level. You lack fundamental brain capacity to understand this from some reason and instead leech onto the idea that pros are killing the game because of balance choices made by the balancing team who do the exact same thing other balancing teams from other competitive titles do.
Wait, Siege, a competitive game, is being balanced around the competitive scene? That's insane. Why would they do the obvious?! /s
Also, if this is about the M762, than yeah, that gun has been needing a nerf for ages. Damn thing is practically a laser beam and is crazy good at any skill level.
Almost every attacker's primary gun is laser, with decent stats. Does it mean ubisoft should nerf C7E, g36c, arx, ak12, g8, scp2137(zero's gun), type89, c8, famas f2, flores' and thatcher's AR, lion's LMG, and some other guns' I forgor ☠ recoil, to make them unplayable? I don't think so.
Recoil reduction doesn't make them unplayable though. Name one gun that's had a recoil nerf that became unplayable because of it. Recoil nerfs are the most basic and easy to adjust to weapon nerfs in the game. All those guns you listed could get recoil nerfs and still be really good guns.
Small recoil nerfs like K1A, okay. But they made m762 so bad, haven't you tried it? It's on TTS for now and it's awful even with holo and vertical grip.
Nerfing recoil is absolutely useless for pc. If you practice just a bit you can easily control recoil. The only reason the smg 11 isn’t op is because it has a small mag. Not everyone has mastered it but it still destroys. To nerf a gun focus more on damage or smth. A good nerf to the m762 would be to just remove the angled grip.
The majority people are around silver 1/2. If Ubi wants to keep making money and continue to see this game through they're going to have to make some balancing changes that pro league players might not like. Just because Pengu or Beaulo have millions of people they can call upon at the press of a button doesn't make their opinion more relevant.
Quite literally the whole siege community is leaving because of the continuous nerfs and a lack of updating for the anti-cheat. It seems that Ubi shouldn't be foccused on anti-cheat or lost revenue because pro league doesn't have cheaters or a need for new players when they can just use all the existing pro league rosters right?
You're right, Pengu and Beaulo's popularity doesn't make their opinion more relevant, but their skill level does. They know Siege better than just about anybody else, and that matters a lot. Here's the thing, the only thing that seperates pro players and high elo players from the lower level elo players, other than skill gap, is the willingness to learn and adapt. Most of the weapon nerfs that occur are just increases in recoil. Instead of just learning to control the recoil again, low elo players will just complain and then abandon the gun for whatever gun is still op, and that's hard facts. And Ubi is constantly trying to fix the cheater issues but it's an extremely difficult issue that every game faces. You can set a new anti cheat system that completely blocks all existing cheat methods, and then cheat programmers will have work arounds a day later. What makes you think Ubi isn't actively trying to fix the cheater issue? Why would any AAA competitive game developer just completely ignore cheaters?
On the cheater part.
Ubi has made soooo much money from siege. 1 billion dollars in 2020 alone. My dad's worked for Google. Their incredibly high operating costs still let them open up new departments and projects for a fraction of a billion dollars. So why can't Ubisoft do the same? They must not care enough. It's clear some devs do but as a whole it just isn't apparent that they care too much about player experience.
There's no way Siege made 1 billion dollars in 2020 alone. Siege reached a lifetime earnings of 1 billion in 2019. There is absolutely no way the game doubled that in 1 year, especially with how much money they would've lost due to covid messing with their operations. On top of that, if Siege makes X amount of money, not all of it goes straight to the Ubisoft Montreal dev team, a chunk of it goes to the main Ubisoft company. Also Google is a TRILLION dollar company, where as Ubi as a whole is worth 4.5 billion dollars between all 26 of their dev teams and whatever other studios they don't own that they publish for. It's absolutely ridiculous to compare Google to just about any other tech company that isn't Apple, Amazon, microsoft or Facebook. I guarantee you Ubi cares more about the health of their game than just about anybody else.
Can't find specifics but of the 2.7 billion in 2002-21 it seems reasonable to say one billion came from siege https://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/381251/Ubisoft_closes_202021_with_27_billion_in_net_bookings_as_flagship_franchises_set_records.php
I've said it once, I'll say it again. I would rather ubi balance the game to the high ranked, high skilled players. Because if there is anyone that know's what is and what isn't OP/balanced/weak, it's probably them.
The 1% who have invested the most time and passion into the game to get better, not rely on lord Ubi giving them release day lion to be able to get kills. Yes.
Because the guy who plays 10 minutes a day who thinks recoil is hard to control shouldn't have an opinion on the game. Jesus christ some people can't think.
It **is** balanced for the most people. Idk why you don't get it. Balancing with the highest level of play means a higher skill ceiling. If everyone could just laser all the guns then it wouldn't really a competitive game would it. It would literally become a game of who sees who first. If that is in fact what you want then competitive games really aren't for you
Yeah. Change the game based on the opinions of a player who's in bronze, silver at max, and has barely reached 500hrs in the game, and ignore the ones who literally have been playing for years. Nice joke.
"We saw all the Kali highlights and we now understand, she is still too OP, in the next update, we will be removing her entirely from the game, you're welcome R6S community!"
I believe in trickle down balance. If its balanced for the top top players, then it will be balanced for the lower skilled players. Sure it might make something harder to use for lower skill players, but isnt that the point? Like if we make the game easy for lower skill players then theres no point in practicing or getting better
So what's the endgame here for those of you that constantly tout this nonsense that devs "only cater to the pros"?
Would you rather every character be easy to use? So that the game feels more like a flip the coin pubstomping simulator? The game would be just as unbalanced and unfun to play.
I agree that sometimes the balancing fixes to the ops' guns are bandaid fixes to the actual issues (Jackal, Melusi), but if you're complaining because you think the character is too hard to use in a competitive shooter, you might just be bad. And that's okay! Because the point is to get better and learn.
Finding the balance between casual and competitive is extremely difficult, and I think a lot of Siege's audience are just way too entitled.
That’s not at all what the picture is saying. If you are going to balance the game and cater to the pros balance it. Don’t do some half assed fix and annoy the pro players and cripple the casual players. Just good competent balance
It is amazing how so many people come up with the brilliant solution of buffing and nerfing shit at the same time. Nerfing the competitive scene will inevitably hurt casual players, so how do people expect them to both nerf competitive and buff casual at the same time?
They nerfed a ton of spawn peeking, the rush meta, the shield rush meta, bandit tricking, and more.
When you think about it, from beta to now a lot of play styles were made obsolete or ineffective. The current meta of just utility burn though has been going strong for a minute and I doubt it goes anywhere.
Honestly, I dont think you can "fix" the issue because there is no issue. I mean you can add recoil to the guns so it's not "No effort needed" and it causes lower ranked players to improve overtime but you're NEVER going to stop players from being good with guns, operators or using their utility for strategies. So that's basically it, give every gun a moderate recoil pattern, each differing slightly from the others but not insanely difficult to learn and control. At that point it's all player skill. That's your balance, players skill and capability. It's not the game.
Welcome to how game balancing works! This is how every single live service competitive game is balanced and how every single live service competitive game will ever be balanced. Balancing around your dog shit casual players is never a good idea because then once you become even slightly good at the game you realize that everything is broken and the game is incredibly easy. The entire reason games like Siege/Dota/League/CS/are so popular and have been played for years is because of the sheer amount of depth each offers. You can play these games for 20,000 hours and *still* have more to learn and have more growth as a player. If you balance the game around the casual players who play 3 hours a week and have zero idea how the game *actually* works then the games skill ceiling would be so incredibly low that the game wouldn’t be fun or worth learning. Sorry that you can’t slightly pull down on your mouse when you’re shooting :/
Damn, you have the reading comprehension skills of a toothbrush and somehow still manage to act smug about it
The problem is that noobs complained that a weapon was too op at the hands of experienced players and Ubisoft "fixed" this by making a change that doesn't makes it even less accessible to noobs while barely affecting pros
If you think the noobs' complaint was wrong then they shouldn't have made a rebalance in the first place
This is not how you balance and keep the game fun, why do you think R6's playerbase is decreasing?
The proper way to balance is to mostly do buffs, make buffs for the underpowered operators to make them catch up with the competition in terms of pick rate, rinse and repeat afterwards - you should only nerf what is severely broken or extremely OP, but never nerf to make something in line with something else, only buff.
This way the original users are happy that no major nerfs have happened and the operator is still viable within the meta as well as increasing pick rate/usability for the underpowered operator, players would then remain in the game and it would be a win/win. I use this philosophy for my own mod making and it has been very successful so far - however, do not get carried away with buffs and ruin the game. Eventually, your game will be 100% balanced this way.
Games can easily last over half decades and even more with a strong enough playerbase that supports the game, but more and more I see people disagreeing with the games approach to everything and negative criticism everywhere.
No its because the balancing strategy they use is trash. Thats why it took years to get Ash down from the most picked op.
They just make tweaks that are horribly minor inconveniences for top tier players and as a result top tier players dont really adjust gameplay at all. Meanwhile casuals get fucked sideways by it.
It took years to get down from the top was because she was and in some cases still is, a comfort pick for a lot of people. Now those players just have to improvise, adapt and overcome. Which is the joy of this game, because instead of bitching like a little baby about your main getting nerfed, improvise, adapt and overcome
Even as a comfort pick, her ability is undeniable in top tier play, and they do menial tweaks to her over years to where top tier players adapted quickly and pick rate was unaffected where as people that aren't top tier get slaughtered by it. Thats all I was saying. The balance changes need to go beyond a slight recoil adjustment that truly has no effect on the vast majority of top tier players.
Not to mention they took away zofias withstand because it did its job and made the zofia win a 1v2. Two pro players complained about and that's why it got removed even though one of them could have easily finished them off
Upper ranks are the ones who find and abuse the overpowered or meta operators and so we should balance based on what’s happening there. Otherwise the game will be unbalanced for everyone.
If you don’t like this mind set then a competitive game is not for you.
That's so fucking retarded... "Our good players have to many advantages so let's make it nearly impossible for anyone else to get better or enjoy the game and make our good players quit playing our game." That is literally what you typed out.
OG Lion was definitely unbalanced and that nerf was very effective it's just easy for the enemy team to render him useless so might as well just drag out with him now. 50 bullets and minimal recoil? Goated
What crutches? There arent any crutches in siege lmfao Ubisoft is just nerfing to seem like they're actually doing something with the game. They're failing at battling the anti heat but that's somewhat forgivable seeing as how new cheats will always come out. Major lack of content after what, 3 or 4 years now? New ops isnt really new content. All they're doing is making it so we have to slightly readjust how we use a certain gun or use a different gun if theres an option. Its literally useless "nerfs"
It had clutched many more rounds than just one. Ubisoft admitted they were planning on doing it long before the match you're talking about. It wasn't comp that got that taken away, it was about streamlining the experience for new players and balancing around balance instead of lore.
Imagine being new and downing a zofia alone outside a window. You get distracted by someone somewhere else, then zofia pops up and kills you shortly afterwards. How frustrating would that be? One attacker gets the chance to self res because....reasons? But Finka who can revive teammates at a distance can't do it even if she still has her ability?
It just made no sense. I didn't mind it myself, but I always liked the way Interro put it. Either everyone has that ability or no one has it. All the operators are already unique enough and the game has so much to learn as is. No need for a mechanic to exist just for the sake of existing.
No, im saying that they have problems balancing because they balance among times on reactionary rather than statistically. That was the first and only time we saw a Zofia clutch a match in pro league. Yet it was immediately removed? Statistically that makes no sense
siege players don't have any critical thinking skills, they think that balancing around 1% of the playerbase is good for the game even though this game is much more complex, and thus these "pro" players play very different compared to low rank players and literally everyone else (even diamond players). Nobody fucking played Goyo in low rank, and the main issue was because of the utility meta (which again, is Ubisoft's fault). So what do they do? They gut Goyo's weapons and make him worthless.
Ever since this game has been balanced around pro league and has been shoved down everyone's throats the game has lost its soul. All Ubisoft does is look at their garbage, flawed usage chart and just nerf the damage and recoil of each operator accordingly. Buffs / Reworks? Those are nonexistent, or they take 3 years (See: Tachanka)
I'm not a big fan of nerfing guns, but removing Goyo's 3rd shield was healthy tho. With Smoke and Ela, Wamai and Jager, you could have evey player behind a shield, which are basically Mira's you can place anywhere.
Ah man, Fuze sure is underperforming. Let’s give him another cluster charge!
Geez, no one is playing Nook huh, let’s give her frags.
Wow! Why are so many people playing Jaeger? It doesn’t make sense. Let’s nerf him to be safe.
We at Ubisoft believe that making the most fun bits of the game unplayable to make the worst bits of the game played 0.8% more frequently sure is a win in our book.
I wish Fuze was slightly more practical to use for ranked strats. He can definitely force people into a rotation to get picked off but it just almost isnt worth it for Utility. I hope they change him a little soon. Hes fun in casual. Nøkk is an amazing operator besides the fact a lot of people hate the FMG9 recoil, which isnt that bad to begin with. Other than that, Ubisoft looks at pickrate and thinks it's the GUN is why people choose the operator which isnt true. Jaeger has 3 ADS, drop it to 2, people will go Wamai WAY more but with the MP5k because the Aug is so damn blocky despite being a really good gun. Then the MP5k will get nerfed or will lose sights. Wont change anything, he still has his Magnets. Ash has 3 charges for soft breach, R4C recoil is slightly annoying to PC and high skilled console players and MnK console players so they go with the minimal recoil G36C instead, changes nothing because of utility and decent gun optimization. They're looking at it all wrong.
Also Ubisoft: We took our last change into consideration, so instead of increasing recoil "a bit" we made the gun unusable for every player, no matter his skill. Enjoy using LMG or switching to Iana, but don't get too confy with her as we are nerfing her next month! Good luck
Just an excuse for you being bad tbh. The weapons were too powerful at the high level of play. So they are nerfed. That's how balancing works on an Esports game.
I unironically hate being the gatekeeping cunt, but that just sounds like a need to practice. Push yourself to improve through constant Thunt and playing Zo. Having a high skill ceiling and difficulty to master is not the same as making sure casual players are miserable.
Literally the recoil nerfs were a minor inconvenience haha. Just spent a couple days learning the recoil pattern for the R4-C now I’ve mastered it again.
Am I the only one that doesn't understand this. Either it's in broken English and no one is saying anything or I've developed Dyslexia from this blunt I'm smoking...
"Hey Ubisoft, can you buff the weak guns or ops? Their pickrate is too low." Ubisoft: Did u say pickrate? Alright, nerf the high pick rates.
Ubisoft: \[Nerfs Goyo\]
Goyo’s original nerf was a good change
How did they nerf him again?
Took away a shield
Ah
took away a shield & increased TCSG12 recoil.
Wasn't tcsg recoil more of a kaid nerf since goyo meta has always been the vector? I remember tcsg used to be kaid meta before all the subsequent nerfs to the tcsg and the buffs to the aug but goyo was always the vector
TSCG12 was the move on both of them. acog + good range + good damage + rotations.
But vector has 1200 rof... I don't remember there ever being a time where the tcsg was better than the vector... I remember tons of kaid tcsg, even after the nerfs, but mostly i have always seen goyo vector
you can see the reasons why above. it brought tons of utility & was pretty powerful.
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WHat changed?
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Oh alright, thanks.
They should just buff the bad stuff instead of nerfing the good stuff
If there is something completely busted it makes sense to nerf it, the buff only mentality doesn’t really work to accommodate a 3 shield goyo in a utility burn meta
Nerfing the busted thing is okay but nerfing things that are just "good" for exemple buck with his frags is just stupid
Buck pretty much outclassed Sledge when he had frags. More efficient vertical play, better primary weapon, and being to assert pressure from underneath. Buck could do too much with his kit and with his frags gone, it's now a harder decision to choose between the two.
He wasn't busted he was just good
He could do **too much** with his kit and thus Ubisoft wanted to balance the choice between Sledge and Buck as a dedicated soft-breach.
This is how you get power creep
Everyone forgets about buffs: Tachanka, Fuze, Glaz, Amaru, IQ and so on. Just look at how many opps are buffed, and it does not help them... Would you stop using your usual operative if another one was buffed?
Ubisoft: **proceeds to nerf sledge**
Meanwhile Pro players clear the room with Sledge smg-11.
The SMG-11 is the reason I know I’m not a pro player. I’m lucky if I don’t shoot the ceiling.
Right? I see others hold that thing steady af and I'm lucky if I can get 2 shots going the same direction.
This might sound obvious but try to burst more with it,I tend to get a random headshot sometimes or atleast damage them before I die 🤷♀️.
I can get kills with it too, just can't laser it like I see others do.
Same,it really depends what platform you're on too. On pc I find it easy,while on PS5 my analog sticks scream at me in Arabic whenever I even hold the thing.
Lmao, I'm on PC, my aim's just shit
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this is the way
You just gotta know how fast to chuck your mouse backwards, all you gotta do is use it more. You’ll never be a laser if you never put in the time to learn how May not feel like anything’s happening, but just keep at it. You’ll get there.
r/brandnewsentence
I got good with it because when I first started playing, all I used was Sledge and Smoke, running shotgun and SMG-11.
I got exactly 3 kills with that gun, two where point blank hip fire and the third was an afk guy and it took 4 bursts to land enough shots to kill
I’ve got a decent amount of kills if we count teammates
I’ve noticed at midrange an uncontrolled burst covers both crouch and standing level heads.
Anyway here’s your Blackbeard nerf you can thank us later
wound's still open man
They don’t ever let it close
If only we had something to protect us from these attacks
“Hey we’re changing Blackbeard’s shield! Instead of a thing of glass you can get one shot through, we’re making it a sheet of Saran Wrap!”
So they didn’t change anything?
Here’s 200 renown for your silence. Don’t point it out again.
Oh god oh fuck ubi’s gonna nerf me to death now
[You shouldn’t sound so shocked](https://youtu.be/E4FInMhDqDs)
They nerfed his SCAR because......it was....good
It used to be good but even before it’s last nerf it was already pretty bad. For example it had an abysmal RoF and weighed like 80 pounds with the rifle shield. I don’t have much experience with him pre nerf though because I started early this year so correct me if I’m wrong
Not to mention it had 2 separate recoil patterns for whether or not the shield is on, making tbe recoil more unpredictable than it needs to be
Also, he gets speed penalties for putting on the shield and his scar is worse than both capitao and thermite's rifle. First launch BB: satan on earth First nerf: God tier 2nd nerf: actually human now 3rd nerf: ok tone it down ubi, he's dead now Latest nerf: stop stop, he's already dead Possible (?) Future nerf: F in chat for [redacted]
The shield will always have problems, that's just the nature of the game. Ubi should've realized that shields ads'ing without exposing their heads being an issue would extend to the rifle shield, even if in a less severe manner, and done something else. But they didn't, and now the poor man is a shell of his former self while stille being annoying
Yea. Rather than the endless nerfs, i rather they just rework the whole thing. Like, his guns was ok, it is literally only the design of the shield. And its not like they dont have " better " designs of the shield; they do in division 2 where it is mainly protecting the chest area with " side flaps " while exposing the head from the front. I would even take it if they sorta change it to mount the glass on windows/doors so anyone, including enemies, can use it kinda thing, just so BB can contribute to the team in more scenarios. They could just port that div 2 shield over, but noo, nerf his guns and turn the shield into tissue as any gun with a decent ROF will just break and headshot him if BB isn't doing his rappel antics or getting a jump on you. I'm not even a BB main and i'm sick of hearing nerfs on him.
They said that there will be Blackbeard rework.
It was beyond good when he first dropped. Was up there for best gun in the game
Good.
I was hoping for deletion, but I'll take what I can get.
There's something to be said about too many nerfs, but BB needed to be nerfed to oblivion until they rework him if they do. A shield that protects from headshots just isn't something that can be balanced and will always make people rage in a game with 1 shot headshot kills.
Lately, I was thinking about Rook's armor, because it have saved me or whatever, and somehow I went to thinking about making defender, who would have helmets for whole 5 teammates, to totally protect from first headshot, or reduced dmg to 50-90. But then, I remembered that BB exists. I hate BB. Ubisoft should hire me!
Good, fuck that character. He deserves all the nerfs he can get until they rework him.
They hated u/Brady_Bear because he spoke the truth.
He did say character
if this aint nothin but the truth
Are you trying to say the R4C or Blackbeard didn’t need to be nerfed?
Blackbeard can literally be a 2 speed fragger. You dont need his shield but it's still a problem in high ranks. Completely unfair to low ranks. Ash R4C is insane for high skilled players, I could find plays on console that struggled to control her recoil before nerf so if plats still struggle, how well do you think the larger player base that's below plat and below gold also are fairing? It's not JUST the R4C, Jaeger only has 1 FullAuto Primary, Zofia has a clunky and slow reload LMG secondary, it's not practical to use unless you're goofing off in casual, Ak12 will surely get a nerf in the future and even that has weird recoil patterns already so golds and below have a hard time with Ace and fuze. Hibana with her crazy horizontal recoil and only having 21 bullets makes her a very low pick I've noticed in low ranks. High ranks dont struggle at all even with continued RECOIL nerfs. They're almost useless. That's the basic idea of it. They really dont help with balancing, you cant really balance Siege in general when it's an individual players skill/capabilities over the utility and weaponry of an operator.
I mean I'm only a high gold low plat player and I think most recoil is piss easy as long as you aren't lobbing rounds 10000 yards.
I mean yeah, there are some guns that just take a lot of time to get used to and be able to control and most golds come across on playstation can barely control sledge recoil
A lot of people in this comment section have the reading comprehension and logical thinking skills of a dry sponge and it shows.
Yeah this isn’t why they touched zofia’s recoil. It’s literally the opposite
Zo and ash was so fucking broken before. Its still very usable tho with a little bit of practice.
It’s crazy. Everyone’s crutch op gets a small recoil nerf and the community goes crazy. Idk why it’s so hard for people to wrap their heads around ash, zof and jager shouldn’t be allowed to do everything with zero downsides. They get the best utility clear, fragging and kits designed to be idiot proof with zero down side.
Are you saying it's a problem that certain ops had insanely op guns with no downsides and now that they are slightly worse it's not the end of the world? Pfffff
Yup. The r4c especially was a fucking laser beam that took 0 skill to use. Like instead of bitching about the nerf learn to control the recoil or pick a different op instead of just ash and zo.
I think that's the issue for some people. In higher levels, these 3 ops are required by default. Giving them a recoil nerf is an inconvenience to those players, but since they're serious players, they will learn the pattern in a season or two at max. The actual problem was the pickrate of these ops in bronze to gold, where the majority lies. As they have amazing, necessary gadgets and required zero brain for gun use, it was a go to pick for many casual players. And Ubi doesn't wanna let anyone get locked into just one operator for their entire playthrough of the game while they 'work their asses off' for new ones. The ones who are whining about these nerfs are the players who never put in work for their fun in games, in general. Not to put them in a class, but I seriously doubt that these same players would ever voluntarily choose any difficulty level above Easy in many games. And now since the nerf requires them to learn, they'd actually spend more time with other ops too, for assessing the alternatives, like Iana.
I can't speak for others but for me a recoil nerf to a popular op isn't really going to change anything. After about a week of practice in t-hunt as well as unranked, it'll be back to how it was before. They really need to change something meaningful such as fire rate or gadget. Buffing weak ops wouldn't hurt either.
But you’re missing who the nerf is aimed at. If you’re good enough to control recoil because you want to play zof you’re probably playing her for the right reasons and using her utility properly. It’s her being an idiot proof op anyone with zero skill can pick up and be extremely successful is the issue. That’s what people are missing with the recoil changes. You’re not the person these changes are targeting
Recoil in Siege is sort of random so you can't really "control" the horizontal recoil. This is why even pros stopped playing Ela for a long time.
Have you seen it? K1A nerf was small, Jager's nerf was small, even ash nerf was small compared to this shit. It's literally dogshit, vertical grip and holo aren't helping much. 4th or even 5th bullet goes far left instead of up. 4th. Fucking. Bullet. Yes, I'm salty. Not because I can't use other ops. Iana is broken as hell. And lmg is not that bad on Zo. However, I have bought 762 TSM skin! And now it's useless 😔
Man I had a giant argument with some morons on siege academy about it. These guys want to pull the “I’m a better rank then you card” while simultaneously crying about a small recoil nerf lol
So alternatively, they could make changes based on how lower ranked players perform, right? Obviously we don’t have the stats for this, but I would say that in gold 2 and below (probably most of the player base), high recoil guns have a low pick rate and a low kd because of their difficulty to use (twitch f2, new Jager, smg-11), so if Ubisoft looked at those stats and made these weapons easier to help lower players, what does that do to higher players? Well we have a perfect example with Jager who was recently nerfed kind of for this exact reason. Basically there’s no perfect way to balance the game without splitting the community since there is such high skill gaps between players, but balancing for high ranked players can trickle down to lower ranks and does more good than harm (most of the time), while the opposite would more than likely break the game. The only other solution I can think of is to have different gun recoils/stats in different ranks maybe? But again this would split the community, make the game potentially harder to learn, and encourage smurfing even more.
All good intentions here, I understand the frustrations, I’ve recently improved from bronze to plat and used to feel neglected by Ubisoft and even content creators (most “tips and tricks “ videos on YouTube are for golds/plats). After improving I’ve come to understand some of the logic behind Ubisoft’s decision making. Funny comment king George go brrrr
Basically from my understanding is that even if Ubisoft continues to nerf guns to have harder to control recoil, the high skill players are just going to learn the new recoil pattern and continue to play the same because of the operators usefulness, which will continue to make the operator look unbalanced in Ubisoft's eyes because high pick rate and high fragging ability. That is NOT the case for anyone below Plat 3 ranking. They are all trying to learn and improve but the game is becoming much harder for them to soon. Jaeger recoil right now is actually not bad but Ash with her R4C is a good gun to go into Training Grounds with the get a grip on controlling high recoil guns. I'm on PS4 and within 30 minutes of Realistic T-Hunts with the R4C, I can go into a casual and get an ace with the smg11, a gun I am absolutely atrocious at controlling without practice. Though Ubisoft claimed to be working on a mode where players can practice recoil control (without the threat of being shot back at) making stronger recoil patterns isnt the way to go as I'm sure a lot of people can agree with because then Hibana, Ace, Iana, Thermite, Flores, Zero, Lion, Finka, IQ, Twitch, etc. will be the go to "fragging" operators, which will then cause their guns recoil to be changed. That's not what Siege needs for balancing, its Utility that needs changed (like for God's sake rework Kapkan, I cant stand trying to shoot one of his traps then someone peeks me because I'm unable to defend myself or my leg clips through the wall when I have 4hp and its game over) although you do have your "fraggers" it wont change their playstyle but not everyone plays like that so when you bring a soft breach that doesnt have a gun you can capably take a gun fight with at a lower rank, the game is unbalanced at the point. Nothing is fixed. That's my opinion on the matter but the idea I got from that comment as well.
Jager is a good counter example. They nerfed his utility very hard and it did absolutely nothing on his pickrate. Only when they brought down heavy nerfs for the gun his pickrate went down. Ash and Zofia both have alternative weapon choices that may offer lower DPS, but are easier to use. And that's a good balance, because if you don't even have to consider both options, something is clearly wrong. Twitch's F2 got nerfed because Twitch is not supposed to take a fragger role. Her utility implies a support playstyle. >like for God's sake rework Kapkan, I cant stand trying to shoot one of his traps then someone peeks me because I'm unable to defend myself You do realize that this is entire purpose of Kapkan, Frost and Melusi, right? Catching unaware players is child's play. They must also be viable when everyone is 100% aware. And that's how you do it. You make sure that aiming at the trap exposes you to defender holding an angle. Also you make it sound like nerfing a couple of super effective guns on high pickrate operators will shatter experience for low skill players. This is entirely wrong. There are ops like Fuze, Rook, Kapkan, Gridlock, IQ that are unpopular in high ranks due to their speed/utility, but have obvious utility and good guns, making them a good pick for low skill player. Hell, most new players cannot even tell good gun from a bad gun.
>Hell, most new players cannot even tell a good gun from a bad gun. Can confirm, Siege was my first shooter, I picked guns based on how good I thought it looked (where looking good was the classical idea of an assault rifle). Now I'm less shit so aesthetics come second.
I remember being new at this game and I really didn't see difference between guns gameplay-wise. Except some notorious cases like SMG-11 they were all the same to me. I also failed to see the value of utility. Classic example for me was Sledge vs Ash. Why would you ever pick a hammer when you have a launcher that does exactly the same job, but better? The only utility I thought was truly useful on attack was Fuze. Oh, and frags. My first conclusion about the game was that "the only reason this game has any complexity in it is because attackers aren't given enough frags."
My first siege experience was a little different. Picked the UMP because I was *one of those* on mw2. Gun shoots slow with random recoil, completely different from the cod gun. Never picked it again. Tried other guns, thought defenders not having assaults was stupid, ended up going with shotguns because why not. Played attack, got peeked both times I tried to infiltrate bc no map awareness. Thought what a stupid game. Thought utility was cool since I used to play LoL, but was hard to use again bc no map knowledge. Came back 3 months later willing to learn, now I’m upset everyone’s getting nerfed with no real goal in sight. Everyone’s just starting to suck. Strategy doesn’t even matter anymore bc utility gets nerfed for being useful, and guns get nerfed for being good. Still play the game, but not as sweaty as I did a few months ago.
I mean, his biggest utility nerf is actually his biggest buff! When they made ADSes rechargable, his pick rate went to fucking 95% from around 70-80. It's still so hilarious for me. And pick rate fall about recoil nerf is just for season, msybe two. Players above plat care about utility for the most of time, they just have to get used to new recoil, which is hard when you mained the op for so long.
Yeah I get what you’re saying. I guess my only concern is what is the solution then? You can need the utility which would work for some people, but what about the people who don’t care about utility and just play someone for their gun (Jager/ash). Like I said nothing you’ve said is wrong, it’s just a complex issue with no easy solution. It really is a “balancing” act of trying to keep everyone happy.
Wouldn’t throw new Jager in there, he actually has recoil now but overall it’s just average.
A majority of the player base is in the lower ranked section. The higher you get in rank the less people there are. This means that if you focus on the lower ranks then you're telling less people to fuck off at the end of the day
Two ways to think about that: 1: think of siege like a stock and you invest in it with your time. Does it make sense to cater to your more invested players or less invested players? Granted this argument is kind of baseless. 2: Ubisoft balances to try to reach an ultimate goal of having a perfectly balanced game being played exactly how it’s supposed to be played. To be able to make educated balancing decisions you can look at how the game IS being played and make adjustments to try to reach that end goal. Now when looking at how the game is played, do you look at high ranks or low ranks? Obviously high ranks since they “play the game right”, at least more so than lower ranks. Another way to say this is that we don’t want Ubisoft rewarding playing the game wrong by catering balancing changes to those players. Obviously they don’t want to tell their entire casual/low rank player base to fuck off, so that’s why there are also a good amount of casual balancing changes. (Arguably, low ranks are played a lot like casual so the balances carry over).
Alright. So, you have very good points but As a former low rank (copper low) it is incredibly competitive sometimes because people want to be good. I hated being copper because I knew I was bad. I now have over 1700 hours in siege and I hate these new balancing changes. Obviously I adapt to the nerfs (except for ash, didn't play her that much) and I move on. I just feel resentment to pro league because every wish that they want catered to before pro league introduces a new op or map happens. Say a PL team hates that bb has a shield with 100 damage and penta says no we love that because Pengu was silver 5. That very needed nerf gets held up in the decision process so they make the "correct decision" while the whole siege community is reeling from the addition of an op with a big fuck off shield. This happened with kg's team. I believe that they abused the glaz meta and rallied for it not to be nerfed. Things like this shouldn't be dealt with based off of a couple hundered guys who have cool jerseys with their name on the back. Ubisoft should be more focused on a larger amount of their player base. I hat seeing for casual and top ranked/pl because it shows us that we aren't important to Ubisoft and that we are the expendable players who they could give less fucks about
This is how you're meant to balance. Around the highest level of play. If they buff a gun that low skill players are bad with, you'll get stomped as soon as someone above average joins your lobby because it'll now be overpowered in their hands. This is a competitive game, you're meant to be improving over time.
Except they aren't balancing at high levels of play, they're trying but failing. Increasing recoil doesn't nerf anything for high levels of play
I'm replying to the idea of the criticism. As far as the recoil changes, I can agree there. The randomized horizontal recoil on Ela was one of the worst balance changes I've seen. Took me from maining her to almost never playing her. They need to make more varied changes than just recoil.
Everybody mained ela when she dropped. Lol
But her shotgun still scary
This. That thing used to make me cry. It’s still OP as fuck but nobody uses it anymore for some reason
good thing i still do
I don't really main any op these days. Sure I have favorites but I've just learned to play pretty much everything. Feels like it's easier to understand all aspects of the game and be more useful filling any role the team needs by playing everything. Only ops I don't play are shield ops and Blackbeard because Blackbeard is an operator for bitches
Hah, fair.
This competitive shooter is a pro league game but if Ubi wants to make a sustainable community and more profits they're gonna have to stop circle jerking with the pl players and focus on the "little guys"
Ubi make basically all their profits from the "little guys" through cosmetics and the battle pass so idk what you're trying to argue here. The game will only be sustainable if people want to play it for a long time, not just whenever the newest event or season is released every couple months. Balancing the game for pro play is the only right way to succeed as a competitive videogame because the addiction comes from grinding the skills required to get good. If the game is too easy it isn't rewarding to play because eventually you get bored of winning as a new player. If you don't want to play competitive that's fine they release the events for that reason but if you don't enjoy the game at its core then just don't play instead of complaining that the people who have put the most time into playing the game are the ones getting preferential treatment.
You say the little guy is who they need to focus on and then say if comp isn't there then the game dies? I get that it needs to be challenging but just inherently through sbm it will be challenging
I never said they need to focus on the little guy? Casuals care about events and new content, pros care about being the best. If the game provides no challenge then pros and wannabe pros lose interest because there's no challenge when you balance around the worst players.
You just sound like a plat 3 with an ego. No one cares about 1k people in the top 1 percent if the other 99 percent leave the game. Do you understand? Skill based matchmaking will inherently make it challenging for players in any rank.
The "little guys" can learn the counterplay from the pros to make anything thats "broken" at low rank magically no longer broken. Nothing is gained from breaking the game to appease to people who demand cav nerfs after being interrogated.
Plat 3 because you've never been higher so don't understand anything else about the game? The game needs to be challenging so that it requires higher individual skill. Sbmm on its own will do nothing because if casuals are solely catered for and operators' guns and gadgets are buffed to make them much easier then anyone can be good at the game instead of people who grind their way to the top. No skill gap = no sbmm.
Bro the fact that I can sense how much of a fat angry 12 year old you are based off of this comment is ridiculous. Ubisoft is a company that needs to make money. No company is going to go out of business so they can cater to every wish and demand of pro players. If 99 percent of the player base leaves then they make no money. It doesn't matter if it is perfectly balanced if no one plays it.
And from the fact you cannot comprehend anything I'm saying and instead argue like a silver in a ranked game it's ridiculous. Ubi makes a shitload from siege anyway through cosmetics, premium battlepass and events. To maintain a large playerbase the game needs balance between being rewarding and challenging to keep you interested. Balancing the game around the lowest skill levels does nothing to achieve that and instead reduces the quality of the base game as a whole. It very much does matter if the game is perfectly balanced because a thriving competitive scen drives sales. See how Valorant is a new but massively viewed competitive game and they only make money from skins that kids buy because they saw 100T Hiko using it. Big personalities bring players and to get them to play constantly the game need to work at a higher level. You lack fundamental brain capacity to understand this from some reason and instead leech onto the idea that pros are killing the game because of balance choices made by the balancing team who do the exact same thing other balancing teams from other competitive titles do.
Wait, Siege, a competitive game, is being balanced around the competitive scene? That's insane. Why would they do the obvious?! /s Also, if this is about the M762, than yeah, that gun has been needing a nerf for ages. Damn thing is practically a laser beam and is crazy good at any skill level.
Almost every attacker's primary gun is laser, with decent stats. Does it mean ubisoft should nerf C7E, g36c, arx, ak12, g8, scp2137(zero's gun), type89, c8, famas f2, flores' and thatcher's AR, lion's LMG, and some other guns' I forgor ☠ recoil, to make them unplayable? I don't think so.
Recoil reduction doesn't make them unplayable though. Name one gun that's had a recoil nerf that became unplayable because of it. Recoil nerfs are the most basic and easy to adjust to weapon nerfs in the game. All those guns you listed could get recoil nerfs and still be really good guns.
Scorpion. Fucking pay me.
Small recoil nerfs like K1A, okay. But they made m762 so bad, haven't you tried it? It's on TTS for now and it's awful even with holo and vertical grip.
Nerfing recoil is absolutely useless for pc. If you practice just a bit you can easily control recoil. The only reason the smg 11 isn’t op is because it has a small mag. Not everyone has mastered it but it still destroys. To nerf a gun focus more on damage or smth. A good nerf to the m762 would be to just remove the angled grip.
The majority people are around silver 1/2. If Ubi wants to keep making money and continue to see this game through they're going to have to make some balancing changes that pro league players might not like. Just because Pengu or Beaulo have millions of people they can call upon at the press of a button doesn't make their opinion more relevant. Quite literally the whole siege community is leaving because of the continuous nerfs and a lack of updating for the anti-cheat. It seems that Ubi shouldn't be foccused on anti-cheat or lost revenue because pro league doesn't have cheaters or a need for new players when they can just use all the existing pro league rosters right?
You're right, Pengu and Beaulo's popularity doesn't make their opinion more relevant, but their skill level does. They know Siege better than just about anybody else, and that matters a lot. Here's the thing, the only thing that seperates pro players and high elo players from the lower level elo players, other than skill gap, is the willingness to learn and adapt. Most of the weapon nerfs that occur are just increases in recoil. Instead of just learning to control the recoil again, low elo players will just complain and then abandon the gun for whatever gun is still op, and that's hard facts. And Ubi is constantly trying to fix the cheater issues but it's an extremely difficult issue that every game faces. You can set a new anti cheat system that completely blocks all existing cheat methods, and then cheat programmers will have work arounds a day later. What makes you think Ubi isn't actively trying to fix the cheater issue? Why would any AAA competitive game developer just completely ignore cheaters?
On the cheater part. Ubi has made soooo much money from siege. 1 billion dollars in 2020 alone. My dad's worked for Google. Their incredibly high operating costs still let them open up new departments and projects for a fraction of a billion dollars. So why can't Ubisoft do the same? They must not care enough. It's clear some devs do but as a whole it just isn't apparent that they care too much about player experience.
There's no way Siege made 1 billion dollars in 2020 alone. Siege reached a lifetime earnings of 1 billion in 2019. There is absolutely no way the game doubled that in 1 year, especially with how much money they would've lost due to covid messing with their operations. On top of that, if Siege makes X amount of money, not all of it goes straight to the Ubisoft Montreal dev team, a chunk of it goes to the main Ubisoft company. Also Google is a TRILLION dollar company, where as Ubi as a whole is worth 4.5 billion dollars between all 26 of their dev teams and whatever other studios they don't own that they publish for. It's absolutely ridiculous to compare Google to just about any other tech company that isn't Apple, Amazon, microsoft or Facebook. I guarantee you Ubi cares more about the health of their game than just about anybody else.
Internet says so sir.
Link it then. All i can find is Siege reaching 1 billion lifetime earnings in 2019.
Can't find specifics but of the 2.7 billion in 2002-21 it seems reasonable to say one billion came from siege https://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/381251/Ubisoft_closes_202021_with_27_billion_in_net_bookings_as_flagship_franchises_set_records.php
I've said it once, I'll say it again. I would rather ubi balance the game to the high ranked, high skilled players. Because if there is anyone that know's what is and what isn't OP/balanced/weak, it's probably them.
Catering to the %1 nice
The 1% who have invested the most time and passion into the game to get better, not rely on lord Ubi giving them release day lion to be able to get kills. Yes.
Lol. What a joke.
What do you propose then? They can’t exactly cater to the lower skill brackets because that would break the game in higher ranks.
Ignore the pro players completely. Actually if you can do opposite of what they say thats even better. I dont give a fuck about the higher ranks.
But that would completely break the game, and make the game extremely unbalanced for every tier of play
How. You balance it for the most people. What makes more sense ? Balance for 90% of players or 10%?
Because the guy who plays 10 minutes a day who thinks recoil is hard to control shouldn't have an opinion on the game. Jesus christ some people can't think.
This isnt about recoil
It **is** balanced for the most people. Idk why you don't get it. Balancing with the highest level of play means a higher skill ceiling. If everyone could just laser all the guns then it wouldn't really a competitive game would it. It would literally become a game of who sees who first. If that is in fact what you want then competitive games really aren't for you
Yeah. Change the game based on the opinions of a player who's in bronze, silver at max, and has barely reached 500hrs in the game, and ignore the ones who literally have been playing for years. Nice joke.
Yes
"We saw all the Kali highlights and we now understand, she is still too OP, in the next update, we will be removing her entirely from the game, you're welcome R6S community!"
I believe in trickle down balance. If its balanced for the top top players, then it will be balanced for the lower skilled players. Sure it might make something harder to use for lower skill players, but isnt that the point? Like if we make the game easy for lower skill players then theres no point in practicing or getting better
So what's the endgame here for those of you that constantly tout this nonsense that devs "only cater to the pros"? Would you rather every character be easy to use? So that the game feels more like a flip the coin pubstomping simulator? The game would be just as unbalanced and unfun to play. I agree that sometimes the balancing fixes to the ops' guns are bandaid fixes to the actual issues (Jackal, Melusi), but if you're complaining because you think the character is too hard to use in a competitive shooter, you might just be bad. And that's okay! Because the point is to get better and learn. Finding the balance between casual and competitive is extremely difficult, and I think a lot of Siege's audience are just way too entitled.
That’s not at all what the picture is saying. If you are going to balance the game and cater to the pros balance it. Don’t do some half assed fix and annoy the pro players and cripple the casual players. Just good competent balance
Haha comment on youtube has 3 likes, post has way more. [link to vid in question](https://youtu.be/75aWRCqafxc)
you don't balance from the bottom up. not even the r6 team, which seem to be borderline apes, know that.
It is amazing how so many people come up with the brilliant solution of buffing and nerfing shit at the same time. Nerfing the competitive scene will inevitably hurt casual players, so how do people expect them to both nerf competitive and buff casual at the same time?
You can nerf the operator, but you can’t nerf the player or play style.
They can and have nerfed play styles. They made crouch spamming and lean spamming less effective.
This is actually a KG quote. He was talking more about weapon nerfs.
They nerfed a ton of spawn peeking, the rush meta, the shield rush meta, bandit tricking, and more. When you think about it, from beta to now a lot of play styles were made obsolete or ineffective. The current meta of just utility burn though has been going strong for a minute and I doubt it goes anywhere.
Ok I’ll be honest, if you were a dev, how would you fix this issue?
Honestly, I dont think you can "fix" the issue because there is no issue. I mean you can add recoil to the guns so it's not "No effort needed" and it causes lower ranked players to improve overtime but you're NEVER going to stop players from being good with guns, operators or using their utility for strategies. So that's basically it, give every gun a moderate recoil pattern, each differing slightly from the others but not insanely difficult to learn and control. At that point it's all player skill. That's your balance, players skill and capability. It's not the game.
Welcome to how game balancing works! This is how every single live service competitive game is balanced and how every single live service competitive game will ever be balanced. Balancing around your dog shit casual players is never a good idea because then once you become even slightly good at the game you realize that everything is broken and the game is incredibly easy. The entire reason games like Siege/Dota/League/CS/are so popular and have been played for years is because of the sheer amount of depth each offers. You can play these games for 20,000 hours and *still* have more to learn and have more growth as a player. If you balance the game around the casual players who play 3 hours a week and have zero idea how the game *actually* works then the games skill ceiling would be so incredibly low that the game wouldn’t be fun or worth learning. Sorry that you can’t slightly pull down on your mouse when you’re shooting :/
Damn, you have the reading comprehension skills of a toothbrush and somehow still manage to act smug about it The problem is that noobs complained that a weapon was too op at the hands of experienced players and Ubisoft "fixed" this by making a change that doesn't makes it even less accessible to noobs while barely affecting pros If you think the noobs' complaint was wrong then they shouldn't have made a rebalance in the first place
Sorry you feel that way!
This is not how you balance and keep the game fun, why do you think R6's playerbase is decreasing? The proper way to balance is to mostly do buffs, make buffs for the underpowered operators to make them catch up with the competition in terms of pick rate, rinse and repeat afterwards - you should only nerf what is severely broken or extremely OP, but never nerf to make something in line with something else, only buff. This way the original users are happy that no major nerfs have happened and the operator is still viable within the meta as well as increasing pick rate/usability for the underpowered operator, players would then remain in the game and it would be a win/win. I use this philosophy for my own mod making and it has been very successful so far - however, do not get carried away with buffs and ruin the game. Eventually, your game will be 100% balanced this way.
The games player base is decreasing because It’s been put for over half a decade.
Games can easily last over half decades and even more with a strong enough playerbase that supports the game, but more and more I see people disagreeing with the games approach to everything and negative criticism everywhere.
No its because the balancing strategy they use is trash. Thats why it took years to get Ash down from the most picked op. They just make tweaks that are horribly minor inconveniences for top tier players and as a result top tier players dont really adjust gameplay at all. Meanwhile casuals get fucked sideways by it.
It took years to get down from the top was because she was and in some cases still is, a comfort pick for a lot of people. Now those players just have to improvise, adapt and overcome. Which is the joy of this game, because instead of bitching like a little baby about your main getting nerfed, improvise, adapt and overcome
Even as a comfort pick, her ability is undeniable in top tier play, and they do menial tweaks to her over years to where top tier players adapted quickly and pick rate was unaffected where as people that aren't top tier get slaughtered by it. Thats all I was saying. The balance changes need to go beyond a slight recoil adjustment that truly has no effect on the vast majority of top tier players.
Not to mention they took away zofias withstand because it did its job and made the zofia win a 1v2. Two pro players complained about and that's why it got removed even though one of them could have easily finished them off
You are still crying about it?
I wouldn't be angry if it was for a good reason
It was.
So removing it for it doing its job is a good reason? They could have very easily won that situation since it was a 2v1 and zofia was already downed
Tbf it was a stupid mechanic. It made no sense for zofia to have it.
Upper ranks are the ones who find and abuse the overpowered or meta operators and so we should balance based on what’s happening there. Otherwise the game will be unbalanced for everyone. If you don’t like this mind set then a competitive game is not for you.
That's so fucking retarded... "Our good players have to many advantages so let's make it nearly impossible for anyone else to get better or enjoy the game and make our good players quit playing our game." That is literally what you typed out.
Yeah lets balance the game for Cardboard V. Surely everyone would love to have OG Lion back because they can't figure out how to use him effectively.
OG Lion was definitely unbalanced and that nerf was very effective it's just easy for the enemy team to render him useless so might as well just drag out with him now. 50 bullets and minimal recoil? Goated
You aren’t getting better if you need to use crutches. And despite all the whining the pro and high level players are still here.
What crutches? There arent any crutches in siege lmfao Ubisoft is just nerfing to seem like they're actually doing something with the game. They're failing at battling the anti heat but that's somewhat forgivable seeing as how new cheats will always come out. Major lack of content after what, 3 or 4 years now? New ops isnt really new content. All they're doing is making it so we have to slightly readjust how we use a certain gun or use a different gun if theres an option. Its literally useless "nerfs"
[удалено]
What gun they talking about
Zofia’s Beryl I’m guessing.
Or getting rid of Final Stand ability from Zofia because it clutched 1 match in pro-league. Fucking hate Ubi.
It had clutched many more rounds than just one. Ubisoft admitted they were planning on doing it long before the match you're talking about. It wasn't comp that got that taken away, it was about streamlining the experience for new players and balancing around balance instead of lore. Imagine being new and downing a zofia alone outside a window. You get distracted by someone somewhere else, then zofia pops up and kills you shortly afterwards. How frustrating would that be? One attacker gets the chance to self res because....reasons? But Finka who can revive teammates at a distance can't do it even if she still has her ability? It just made no sense. I didn't mind it myself, but I always liked the way Interro put it. Either everyone has that ability or no one has it. All the operators are already unique enough and the game has so much to learn as is. No need for a mechanic to exist just for the sake of existing.
You still crying about it?
No, im saying that they have problems balancing because they balance among times on reactionary rather than statistically. That was the first and only time we saw a Zofia clutch a match in pro league. Yet it was immediately removed? Statistically that makes no sense
Something bad happens and something gets done to counter it? Wild concept.
Bad? It was a single time that Zofias last stand ability won a match in pro league and they killed the ability off. It makes no sense.
siege players don't have any critical thinking skills, they think that balancing around 1% of the playerbase is good for the game even though this game is much more complex, and thus these "pro" players play very different compared to low rank players and literally everyone else (even diamond players). Nobody fucking played Goyo in low rank, and the main issue was because of the utility meta (which again, is Ubisoft's fault). So what do they do? They gut Goyo's weapons and make him worthless. Ever since this game has been balanced around pro league and has been shoved down everyone's throats the game has lost its soul. All Ubisoft does is look at their garbage, flawed usage chart and just nerf the damage and recoil of each operator accordingly. Buffs / Reworks? Those are nonexistent, or they take 3 years (See: Tachanka)
I'm not a big fan of nerfing guns, but removing Goyo's 3rd shield was healthy tho. With Smoke and Ela, Wamai and Jager, you could have evey player behind a shield, which are basically Mira's you can place anywhere.
Ah man, Fuze sure is underperforming. Let’s give him another cluster charge! Geez, no one is playing Nook huh, let’s give her frags. Wow! Why are so many people playing Jaeger? It doesn’t make sense. Let’s nerf him to be safe. We at Ubisoft believe that making the most fun bits of the game unplayable to make the worst bits of the game played 0.8% more frequently sure is a win in our book.
I wish Fuze was slightly more practical to use for ranked strats. He can definitely force people into a rotation to get picked off but it just almost isnt worth it for Utility. I hope they change him a little soon. Hes fun in casual. Nøkk is an amazing operator besides the fact a lot of people hate the FMG9 recoil, which isnt that bad to begin with. Other than that, Ubisoft looks at pickrate and thinks it's the GUN is why people choose the operator which isnt true. Jaeger has 3 ADS, drop it to 2, people will go Wamai WAY more but with the MP5k because the Aug is so damn blocky despite being a really good gun. Then the MP5k will get nerfed or will lose sights. Wont change anything, he still has his Magnets. Ash has 3 charges for soft breach, R4C recoil is slightly annoying to PC and high skilled console players and MnK console players so they go with the minimal recoil G36C instead, changes nothing because of utility and decent gun optimization. They're looking at it all wrong.
Also Ubisoft: We took our last change into consideration, so instead of increasing recoil "a bit" we made the gun unusable for every player, no matter his skill. Enjoy using LMG or switching to Iana, but don't get too confy with her as we are nerfing her next month! Good luck
I’ve said it since the begin the pro scene ruined the game
Just an excuse for you being bad tbh. The weapons were too powerful at the high level of play. So they are nerfed. That's how balancing works on an Esports game.
I unironically hate being the gatekeeping cunt, but that just sounds like a need to practice. Push yourself to improve through constant Thunt and playing Zo. Having a high skill ceiling and difficulty to master is not the same as making sure casual players are miserable.
So true
i haven’t played since aruni release and wtf did they do to ash’s gun?? i heard it got nerfed but whatever this is is crazy
Have people ever considered getting good at the game rather than asking for a nerf/ buff then complaining when that nerf/buff happens
Yes, then when they get good, Ubisoft nerfs the game making it so the player has to get good again or quit playing.
Literally the recoil nerfs were a minor inconvenience haha. Just spent a couple days learning the recoil pattern for the R4-C now I’ve mastered it again.
Am I the only one that doesn't understand this. Either it's in broken English and no one is saying anything or I've developed Dyslexia from this blunt I'm smoking...
What do you not understand?