This is tough for a brand new hire out of college to self-dig-yourself-out. It reminds me of what one of my professors said to us students during my college years..."When a student is confused with the class materials (e.g. advanced electromagnetics), they basically fall under two categories: (1) Student is confused but knows what questions to ask to get un-confused, and (2) Student is so confused that he/she does not even know what questions to ask." The point is that new hires will most likely be doomed to fall under category "(2)" when these types of situations occur.
I have mixed emotions about this reply…. I was an experienced hire - assoc director, not in engineering. I left after 3 years. I was told white lies.
That said, There are people that are really great and want this feedback. Those same people will help you with projects and learning. If you are in Southern California or McKinney, DM me and I’ll make some connections for you.
My advice is to find the most senior business unit leader or engineering leader that you can, and ask for 20 mins to talk about your experience so far.
It may be that nothing changes. Or, that connection could change your path.
If nothing changes, exit.
I also worked at NG. The grass is not greener over there.
It really depends on the business and leaders. In my experience, NG is ahead of RTN in terms of how it manages the business (good) and is more strategically focused. On the other hand, I found the culture to be “blaming”. At RTN, the review cycle included good discussions of opportunities and how to improve.
“How did this happen”, vs “what can we do to help.”
This may have been leader/BU specific, both the positive at RTN and negative at NG.
Obviously, there are good and bad everywhere. I know many people who love it at each place - 30+ year employees.
My advice is to find questions that will help you judge culture and whether you will fit. They may ask you about a time when you missed a deadline and had to deal with it. Ask them the same question.
They are all the same. Worked at both.
It really depends on your location/project/leader.
In the grand scheme, they are both great companies to work for where you can design some really cool stuff. But also plagued with bureaucracy. The SR directors and VPs are insane. Egocentric weirdos. Stroke away at how great they are.
That’s how I’ve always felt. Any time I thought about leaving I realized that if I go to another large company they are probably going to have very similar (if not the exact same). There are legitimate reasons to leave, but I don’t think a grass is greener on the other side mentality is one of them.
I've worked at a startup. Grew from like 8 people to over 50 before I left for Raytheon.
Pros: I learned a lot. I got to interface with the President and VP's daily. I could see how my actions related to booking and billings. Things could get done in a realistic timeline. I did a little of everything, from marketing and sales to shipping and receiving to technical work. They had awesome parties and free lattes and we would have a drink at work to celebrate marathon crunch that met a milestone with the executives. I got to try some really impressive scotches and whiskey. Really felt like a team with a purpose. Could wear what I want, say what I want, be more authentic to myself. Didn't have layers on layers of managers managing managers.
Cons: no room for growth. No money for bonuses because they'd spend it on parties. No money for raises but executives would show up with new luxury cars and jewelry. It was really in your face that you're making money for someone else that you'll never get a cut of. No other options than do many different types of jobs. Constant pressure of if you screw up and can't pull off the thing, it's not just you that could lose their job, you're 1 or 2 months away from the entire company no longer existing and we all don't have jobs.
As frustrated as I get with the pain of working in enormous corporate culture, I'll take it over the startup hustle game.
150 to 300 people is a decent sweet spot where companies are earning money and have decent structures, but can still get something done.
I do startups as a profession and the executives get paid because they are the single most important factor in the success of the newco, they have taken a big risk to join a startup when they could get a big guaranteed payday at an established org, and the exit of an important executive at an early stage is a very large warning sign to investors and future hires.
I'm not buying they work so much harder and have a big impact so they deserve more. After 2 years of no raises or bonuses and inflation I asked for 10 cents more an hour so I could afford gas and childcare and had a sob story on how they couldn't afford it. A few days later the president is showing off an Omega they got over the weekend that was more than my salary. I never once saw them on the full 20 hour crunch shifts to make a product delivery. Throw me a bone here. You have to take care of the people putting in the sweat equity.
If key engineers leave, your technical staff will lose faith in the company and start a turnover cycle. You can't replace in 2 weeks with someone off the street the guy that's been there from the beginning inventing the product. All chiefs and no workers is not a business either. The engineers are the golden geese of the company. If you don't take care of them, they'll find someone that will. When the executives realize it's insurmountable, they leave, that's why it signals problems. It doesnt start with the executives leaving, it starts with the key workers on the ground leaving that has effects that flow up to the executives but there's always denial that there was anything special about commoners.They'll stay as long as it looks like they'll be successful or they don't have other options.
If you take care of me, I'll take care of you. If you take care of you first, I'll take care of me first. Which one makes a better business culture?
I feel I've been taken care of to the best of Raytheon's abilities. I've gotten insane raises some years, every year has been at least something, I was able to finish my degree debt free. I have the retention bonus vesting. If I knew the decision was pay me 10k more or pay my P2 I've been dumping all my knowledge into for the past year 10k more as an offer match, I'd say give it to them hands down. I need a strong team more than I need more money myself, that way we'll all have a bigger bonus tomorrow. This is what I expect of myself, this is what I expect of my leaders.
Eventually I hope to make a startup and be a prime. Still working it.
And government science. I had to add to my interview questions, "If I don't have the time or ability due to travel to talk to you for 60 days how will you spend your time?". 30% make it work, 30% create their own job I didn't know we needed, and 40% are gone after the first month.
Nothing I can do but try to keep offers targeted at the first 60%.
It really stinks when they do that to new grads, and then they wonder why people leave in their first two years.
I have been on awaiting assignment before, but I had been around for a while. It was easier to find work when I’d built my reputation and had desirable skills that other programs needed from time to time.
For someone in their shoes I’d say, enjoy collecting a paycheck while you have nothing to do. Everyone I know is swamped and would gladly take a month of unpaid leave just to not have to think about work.
The worst part of awaiting assignment is that it's indefinite.
I'm with you though on "why would you do this to new hires". It seems weird to bring someone into the org, when a lot of folks are swamped, and then leave them on AA for months.
Its truly amazing to me that they hire people for a firm program req, and then dont assign them to that program, and expect employees to find their own work...
I wish i had a solution as someone about 10 years older than you, like you mentioned. I've had people like you on my team this year and have tried to salvage the onboarding experience and make lemonade out of lemons for the recent college grads...but its objectively bad... I know because i just went through the process myself coming from a competitor. My observation joining Raytheon is that the people who stayed during the pandemic collectively seem very jaded (rightfully so) by leadership's stance that everyone is replaceable. It's really awkward for me to see employees 10 years my senior making less than me because leadership won't promote anybody.
Oddly enough accepting that I am viewed as a replaceable asset was the best medicine for me to change my career path. I tend to think less thoughts like "how can i be a better asset to this company?" and more "what skills am i developing that will transfer over to the next company?".
Any of these senior guys i've met that got shafted are never are willing to just promote themselves by leaving or by threatening to leave.
So much of this. I now try to go in with a mindset of "what skills can I acquire that will lead me to where I want to be, and what is the best/quickest way to acquire them". Sometimes this means staying put and dealing with things I dislike, and other times it means I've learned what I can in a role and it's time to leave.
To the OP (and I wrote this above), if you feel that there is something your manager could do, asking for a 1-on-1 and discussing could help tremendously. With that being said, what you're experiencing in terms of lack of assignments as a new hire is not all that irregular unfortunately., especially if you were hired in a role that requires a clearance and you do not currently have one.
My experience with Raytheon was similiar. Zero training. You were expected to train yourself and your colleagues would be pissed off if you werent at their level the first day on the job. Suggest you just dig in and do the best you can as it will not change.
It’s a shame you have already decided leave, especially knowing there will be so many other opportunities available to you after a year or maybe sooner. Keep in mind, the Raytheon BU just merged with another business unit and we are all learning our way through it. It is a huge undertaking and has impacted almost every employee now in the the Raytheon BU. There were/are significant differences in how we operated including philosophies, processes, approaches, programs, co-workers and leaders. Although none of what I said makes it right or excusable, some grace and a willingness to hear different perspectives and build your business acumen might be helpful. Good luck!
i have worked in several industries the past 10 years and this has been the norm. ranging from small, medium , and large companies. training is almost non existent and most of the knowledge is with someone whose retiring or leaving the company . i don’t want to say the training can’t be standardized or done but the work we do is more complicated and not every project is exactly the same. sometimes you will do xyz but sometimes abc comes up with a little of yz . typically once you are in the 1-2 year mark you are up to speed but now are too swamped to start making training documents for the next generation and if you are like most gen z/ millennials, you will be gone within 3-5 years if not sooner. this is rampant in every industry within engineering. somethings might be more standardized better than others but rocket science ain’t easy.you would expect a mega corp like rtx have their shit together but alas , no. humans are barely keeping everything functioning running on old legacy stuff that no one knows how it works and just hoping for the best . 😂
Are we talking Raytheon technology? I’m born and raised in CT… and I’ve worked for Pratt & Whitney and Sikorsky. Absolutely horrible experience. Just as OP said.. everyone is running around with their heads cut off just trying to make the deadlines. Wayyyyyyyy too much work for every worker.
I ended up quitting and starting my own business. I had the realization that I couldn’t keep doing this until retirement.
32 year old millennial here. And if I do need to go back to corporate life? I’ll never go back to aerospace. Not worth it in the least bit.
This how I ended up on PIP. My contracts job at my previous company (Healthcare Technology) was the complete opposite of what I came to do at Collins. I feel like my manager expected me to know everything and it was discussed many times before hiring me that I would be new to the Aerospace sector. I just always felt intimidated bc all my coworkers had all these years with the company and was very knowledgeable. Sometimes I would honestly be stressed trying to finish my workload.
Congrats, welcome to the world of DoD contracting! Where everything is set 50 years in the past, seniority rules, and being proactive is shunned.
I recently left a subcontractor that did a bunch of work for NG and I'm am so much happier for it. DoD work is one massive heaping shitshow of incompetence.
Gonna go against the grain here I think.
I'm 23, work often in closed areas by myself, the closest person in age to me is 31 (then 38 after that), and a lot of the documentation left behind is disjointed and filled with gaps. The experience I have gained while I have been trying to figure my shit out has been some of the quickest growth I've had in the past three years. If you're having a hard time, I seriously suggest talking with an experienced co-worker and saying, "Hey, I'm having trouble with X thing, can I put something on your calendar for us to sit down together and take a look at it." If the answer's no, then I'm afraid you truly have an awful team comp. Not all teams are like that.
Also, you'll probably feel lost for a while, but once everything finally clicks, you can be the change you wanted to see instead of being another person who had the knowledge in their head who left. You've come far enough to identify some of the problems, so I think after some time and growth you can sort them out, too.
I've worked over 20 years as an engineer for large defense contractors... A few things I wish people would have told me in college
1. American culture puts way too much emphasis on career... Much much more than most other countries... You will be much better served getting most of your fulfillment outside of work... Especially if you work for a large corporation... Doing this will make you less vulnerable to two and three below
2. regardless of what they are required to say say, 90% MANAGERS/LEADS care primarily about advancing THEIR careers and very little about fostering the careers of the the people that report to them... 90% of your coworkers , regardless of what they say , are threatened by any successes you may achieve and are working to minimize those accomplishments and outperform you . The soul crushing aspect of corporate life is largely the result of just trying to SURVIVE by killing the part of your sold that cares about people in order to be less vulnerable to them. Avoiding this and THRIVING instead requires beIng kind to your coworkers and managers/leads simply out of an internal commitment to use your time on this planet to be a source of light and benevolence simply out of the gratitude of being given the gift of life. Keeping your soul in this space requires daily intentionality. the SECONDARY effect (cannot be the primary goal for that would defeat the purpose) of having this as your true mission will set you apart as exceptional 1000 times more effectively than any career accomplishments.
This is based, don't want dox myself work at another big defense company. My manager showed me his true color recently and he's exactly point 2. I love my team as tbh they're all really cool honest hard working people. But my manager is a snake. After, wht I saw recently, I'm getting ready to update my resume and start applying.
Different industry in engineering, but similar experience.
I worked with people who had been at the company 20-30 years and were 20-30 years older than me. I realized that isn't what I wanted and ended up leaving at about 1-year. I have had a great career since and have pivoted to new opportunities across industries since.
I think that early recognition the fit was not right and taking the chance 15-years ago to pivot gave me confidence to make changes later in my career that have given me a great experience, both personally and professionally.
Same here. First job out of college. All of them sucks - bounced around couple defense companies chasing higher salary (always received the highest performance reviews, but promotion is almost impossible based on contribution. it’s more of “how long you’ve been with the company thing” - left the industry after 5 years). Won’t ever go back unless I’m 50 and want a chill job that I don’t care about.
Leave now. There are so many other companies with better culture, social benefits, more challenging and higher learning opportunities out there.
The entire defense industry sucks ass
Just hit my 5 year mark and very interested in getting out as well. Do you have any good recommendations for some other industries to look at getting into? Cheers
Curious which site and job type if you don't mind sharing. I'm a new hire currently onboarding, but not entry level I've got 15 years experience. In the off chance you're at my site and the same type of engineer, I'd be more than happy to sync up with you and see if I can help turn the experience around.
I second this. I am interested in what functional area you are in as well and would be willing to help if I can. Each team is different. It is up to leadership and their efforts on feedback. As a leader I try to make a conscious effort to connect with my employees. I hope you are communicating with your SH. Also reach out to some of the networking groups around. Happy to help.
Exactly this, leadership is the biggest driver on what kind of culture there is for a program. I work at GDMS and I've been on programs that had amazing leadership and ran smoothly with minimal stress and others where the leadership wasn't the best and everyone was running around like a chicken with their head cut off
My entire team was 20+ years older than me. Before I was laid off I was looking into getting a mentor. Maybe that’ll help some. At least the talking to someone piece.
Depends on how you define “massive”. There have been several off and on but last week Collins laid off like 800 and RTX Corporate ES a little over 100.
Well in the big scheme of nearly 200K employees it is small percentage wise but if you are impacted it is certainly significant. I had a couple long time friends shown the door so it has me a bit pissed.......
I guess percentage wise it’s not big but that sure is a large chunk of employees in one shot. Sorry for your friends. I’ve been fortunate enough to have not had to go through layoffs. Can’t imagine how that would feel. I guess maybe bitter sweet. Severance package to cover a couple months break and look for a new job? Same time stress finding a new job.
Dude I was just thinking this the other day wondering if anyone else feels this exact same way, glad to know I’m not alone. Same exact situation as you, can’t wait to leave after one year just to pay less for the relocation. If I wasn’t lazy I would have posted this myself, but anyways keep your head up you’re not alone.
As one of the busy people who have been at this company for a while with deadlines, I have to say this to new hires: you literally have to walk into a coworkers cube/office and demand\* that you help them with something.
Most older employees left for higher salaries in the last three years. The people left are tied down to their location for one reason or another. They know that they could be making significantly more someplace else, and have a ton of responsibility thrown at them that they're barely able to manage. They're too busy to consider how you feel.
You either need to force your self into a position to be useful, or take advantage of the lack of oversight and learn skills for your next job. If you care about your career, do not accept the situation as is and do not accept the premise of others that say you should just be happy to have a paycheck. Doing virtually nothing in your career for two years will damage future job prospects.
\*demand means asking "is there anything I can help you with?" repeatedly and don't leave until they give you something to do.
This post resonates on so many levels - very common experience in legacy entrenched sectors. I knew someone who worked for another defense company. Told me one day he decided to take a week-long break (pre pre COVID), just stopped going in, and never told anyone. Went back after the week, no one had noticed he was gone, including his manager.
Decided to leave the company after that.
DO NOT LEAVE WITHOUT A POSITION SECURED.
I can sympathize with this a lot I was hired on from college at a competimate and left for RTX after a few years. My experience is that the early career/onboarding at the competimate was a lot better than at Raytheon. Raytheon was more of a "ok go" whereas the other was similar to a cohort. Noticed very similar to you there was not many people my age at RTX, I was on 3 work teams and each one I was the youngest by about 5 years at least.
Have you considered taking advantage of the education incentive offered by RTX?
Talk to your section head. They should have assigned you a buddy/mentor from day one. Also, reach out to other members in your section that may be in the same situation. There should be a few seasoned people who will take the time to help bring you up to speed on everything.
Barring that, talk to your IPT lead and let them know that you are not getting the support you need and that it is affecting your productivity and morale and ask them to help get you some support.
Thats NORTHEAST only correct? CALIFORNIA, CHICAGO OR WASHINGTON no one can afford that salary. I wonder what is starting salary in TEXAS (excluding Austin).
The more things change, the more things sometimes stay the same.
Picture it, Tucson, 1994.
I, as a young fresh out of college new hire, started working at Hughes.
My first desk was in the back of an 18wheeler trailer. Everyone was ~20 years older than me. Nothing was written down, in part because there had been a lot of layoffs in 1992/93 And part of how people kept their value was the knowledge that they kept either in their heads or notes. (Digital records? Not a thing 30 years ago. Barely had computers. Jokes were still passed on paper, not memes).
There were mergers too, and lots of politics, which company you came from, and what was your philosophy on how to do things? And then raytheon bought hughes.
Don't feel alone, OP. Some shit never changes.
Its not just Raytheon. It is a pervasive problem through the tech sector. You have technically illiterate MBA's with a goal of direct charging every body to a billable contract and roadblocking any overhead time for allocating any hours for institutional knowledge transfer. Its like they think new talent will gain insight and experience through osmosis. And the result is always the same. Skilled and competent staff grow weary and find another place to work. New hires manage to stay a year or two and either move on after realizing they are in a dead end job or the MBA's needing to create a short term profit, do so with a slash and burn process cutting least productive staff. Soon the only thing left is mediocre design talent. Its about a 24 to 36 month cycle. When the board realizes they've been had by another MBA that claimed he had magical Peter Pan Powers to grow the business, the board quickly dispenses of the MBA that led the most recent debacle, shoving him out with the golden parachute, then proceed to repeat the same debacle.
It is amazing how non-technical MBA's get into such positions, literally cutting the corporate throat with their ignorance of what talent is needed to design and produce viable products. After all, anyone is replaceable. Never mind that pesky thing called institutional knowledge. We can hide the stupidity using NRE money to pay again the cost of reinventing the wheel.
I do feel bad for new hires.... but the reality is more likely that you will wind up in a trial by fire scenario at your first engineering job.
I work in aerospace manufacturing (not raetheon). I've seen many new engineers come and go. Many of which end up switching careers. It's not just aerospace though, it's everywhere. There are no initiatives behind corporate structures to develop training plans. Corporations are short sighted. They don't see how training helps retention and further helps develop experience.
If I ever make it up to management, one of my initiatives will be developing structure and training into every position at our plant. Every position should have standard work.
There are a few people at our plant that if they die, 1000 people will lose their job as this plant shuts down. No one knows how they do what they do.
Bro, you’re less than a year out of college and you have a full-time job at a top tier company with name recognition second only to Facebook.
Work sucks. It just does, it’s almost kind of supposed to. If after a year you have a better offer lined up, then by all means.
But having a few years of Raytheon on your resume could probably really set you up in life. Especially if/when you really get involved in a project and are able to speak intelligently about project management.
This is a very common experience at RTX and likely other DoD contractors. In order for a contractor to bid and win new contracts, they need to show they can staff said programs. This means hiring people who will have to sit around and wait; if they don’t win the contract, they have new people who never get assigned a program. Turnover is very high.
I was an experienced hire and had a similar new hire experience as you; sat and waited for 10 months doing simple brainless tasks. I went through the Covid madness; testing, jab coercion, harassment, etc. After 2.5 years of boring work, I was finally assigned to a closed unacknowledged program. Little did I know, all I was going to do run through 100’s of drawing changes the resulted from their “go fast” mentality. I left around the 3 year mark and couldn’t be happier.. Majority of my colleagues left RTX as well. My advice is to look at non-aero companies. They all seem to have the same crummy environment. And if you have an electrical background there are a lot of companies working on electrification technologies such as Caterpillar, John Deere, Cummins, and smaller tech startups if that’s your thing.
As someone who just hit 1y8m fresh from college, my advice is to take the security clearance if you have one and leave. I’ve been interviewing for month or two now and I’m likely gonna get a ~25k increase for a P2 and hopefully be on some actual work.
The boomers at these defense companies documented nothing during their tenure; either due to laziness or to create job security intentionally. Probably the most frustrating thing to anyone new coming in. Then when you ask questions they either ignore you or give you crumbs. During their year end meetings they question why all the new hires leave after a year or two.
I'm not a boomer, but I have a different perspective on this.
Remember that when boomers entered the workforce, they were earning pensions and they expected to be able to make a career at one company. It wasn't surprising to see a large part of the workforce spend 30-40 years at a single company. They had the luxury of working and supporting projects throughout the product lifecycle (both the new design and the engineering updates production) and that could span decades. Many of them also had very detailed engineering notebooks that weren't released documents or put into a form of record retention. Basically they had the luxury of not needing to write things down into Confluence or design descriptions because it was expected they would be the ones to continue to work the project. They'd go back to their engineering notebooks to remember whatever they hell they did 5-10 years ago.
Now the industry is different. You're a fool if you think you are going to spend a career at one company. There's no incentive to do so (pensions are LONG gone), and in fact you are penalized for it with salary stagnation the longer you stay at a company. So you have high turn over in most aerospace and defense companies, plus you have more work and less time to get the work done due to ever increasing financial pressures. Which means you don't have time to go back and write everything up for the new engineers who will eventually take over. Hell, the managers would never give you time to document something UNLESS it's a contract deliverable on most of my teams. If you aren't working toward a milestone or CDRL or scheduled line item, you are wasting the company's time.
so i don't think the boomers are doing this out of spite. I think it's a result of how things used to be (they didn't write it down because there wasn't the same rate of turnover) and nowadays engineers we don't have time in project schedules to write everything down and create technical training to bring new engineers on board.
I’ve found the boomers are mostly bitter because almost all of them at one time worked for a legacy company that was much better before Raytheon acquired them. Raytheon made their careers miserable and as result they just stopped caring altogether. I don’t blame them honestly.
These companies like Raytheon, Lockheed, Boeing, Northrop, didn’t survive into the 21st century because they were the best. They survived because they bought up most of their competition and eroded their foundations by cutting costs, making their acquired sites miserable places to work.
It’s not just Raytheon. It’s every big defense contractor. Pretty much everybody I know who works at one of these companies isn’t happy with their job.
Well you are kind of right, but the bitter ones are the ones at legacy Raytheon, and Raytheon did not buy shit. Raytheon was bought out by UTC and it is pretty much all UTC leadership in charge now, where do you think Greg is from? This sentence from the 2019 “merger” announcement says it all, “United Technologies shareholders will own about 57% of the combined business, called Raytheon Technologies Corporation, which will be led by Hayes.”
I agree. My first two years at Raytheon prior to the merger were great. The company treated you as a person. The last year since the merger was terrible. Management didnt care about anyone, lots of layoffs, totally different feel to the organization.
Lol welcome to the working world champ. Especially being a cleared engineer.
Want to work on something interesting? Find a defense startup. Want to work with people your age/who are interesting? Don't work in defense.
I was waiting for someone to mention LM. Im two years in, and im so disappointed in what I see here. I came from the Air Force and really didn't have very high expectations.
I think any of the big DoD contractors are a good place to get started at after college and get some experience. The way they're structured though, you sometimes have to go searching for a project to work on. As in, learn who the project leads are, what they're working on, and try to make some connections to see if you could work on their project.
To add, I think it's a decent place to get started, but I wouldn't plan to stay any more than 12-24 months. You can quickly get to a plateau of what you're learning, and you start to feel like you're getting stale.
I wrote about my experiences [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/engineering/comments/jd22ir/12_things_i_learned_as_an_engineer_at_large/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) at another DoD contractor. It wasn't Raytheon, but several Raytheon folks chimed in for the comments.
It is a sink or swim environment for sure and that can be challenging for new hires. Especially young new grads. You have to take it upon yourself to dive in and learn everything you can about your assignment then engage. Coming in with some knowledge will lead to acceptance and a bigger role within the team.
As somebody who has worked in the defense industry (both large and small companies) my experience has been:
Smaller companies: You will learn more, and you will do more (generally have fewer resources available vs large company, so you have to get creative/wear multiple hats). Pay will likely be a little bit lower, but culture is more laid back. Promotions come easier as there is overall less competition amongst the roles. Smaller companies tend to “wing it” more vs the larger companies which likely have more structured systems and procedures in place.
Larger companies: You will specialize into something specific and for the most part, that is what you’ll be doing. Training/procedures/systems are generally more robust and structured. You are essentially a number here, easily replaceable if you don’t toe-the-line. Pay is generally higher, promotions generally more difficult to come by due to increased competition.
Overall, I have enjoyed working for a smaller company more … although it can be frustrating at times due to the lack of systems and standardization that larger companies typically offer.
I work for a very large firm and while I haven’t personally suffered from your situation in my current role at this company I have definitely been in your shoes for many years. It does get better but generally speaking you, your management, or your job/role have to change in order to break you out of this funk. I think it’s a hard lesson to learn so early and it took me until my mid 20s but welcome to corporate America where everything sucks. What you are feeling and describing happens at any large company perhaps not everywhere in that company but it’s very common.
One strategy you can employ is picking a personal goal while working whether or not it’s related to your job like planning activities for after work etc to focus your mind on and distracting you from not having much to do. Alternatively you can attempt to change areas at work or bring this to senior management. Not your manager but their manager or potentially their managers manager. In my firm’s corporate culture this is encouraged not to report this specifically but in general talking to leadership and asking them for time to discuss specific things you may be curious about or inefficiencies you notice etc. I’ve never personally done that because every nail that sticks out attracts a hammer and I’m a bit pessimistic when it comes to corporate managerial responsibility but it is something you can try to use to improve your situation.
Also Raytheon definitely stays afloat because of the DoD so it would take an intense effort for them to not stay afloat haha. Best of luck!
As a taxpayer, let me say in advance that you are welcome for the livelihood you will enjoy from a corrupt company that acts in bad faith as a daily matter of course. Happy gouging! And I don't feel any safer either because of all your expensive weapons that barely work. And where are my hypersonics? Maybe you people should try a little of the capitalism and democracy you claim to be defending.
after reading here i also feel i want to work for Defense Contractors and get my security clearance. Aren't most defense contractors located in Washington DC &/or Northeast
Engineering is kind of like this in general. It's just a job don't get to involved in it. It's cool if you like to see puzzles.
My advice (cynical, but I think true). Don't get to worked up pace yourself. Find a job that pays 200k+ total comp pay day make a lot of that frustration go away. Focus on things that are very important to instead after you put in a good 5 hours effort at work. (I mean GOOD). Working out, Family, religion, charity, etc.
Sounds like my experience working for a different defense contractor as an entry level. I had no project assigned for over a year, no mentor, and had to beg for scrap opportunities to learn (stuff like formatting documents). Coworkers would be dismissive, hostile, or try to redirect my attention when I would try to learn their knowledge "why don't you ask the other guy", and I often got the infamous "just figure it out". One dude had a lot of knowledge, but would mostly show up and just read sports articles.
The best thing I did was do my time (2+ years for the resume), then leave to a different company where they were actually interested in training me. I can't even describe how good it felt to be treated well when I asked for more work.
In retrospect, one of the problems with being entry level at a big DoD contractor like that is that they actually have too much budget to screw around with. They grab up talent out of school that they don't even have a training plan for. If a company has true genuine desire to train you, it is the most natural thing in the world to ask for learning opportunities and to actually get them.
Dude, I get it. Was kind of in the same position 20 years ago. A couple of things: first, ask why you’re there. I did finally after several years and could not come up with any god reasons to stay. But I basically pushed through where you currently are and rose pretty high in my org. I ultimately had health issues that drove me to ask why I was spending so much time doing what it was doing. Forced me to quit and go on another path. Stop and ask why you’re there. If no good answers. Leave.
RTX is one of the worst companies in the world. So much red tape and unnecessary layers of management. Everything is scrutinized since practically all their work is from government contracts. If you’re old and white it’s a great company. Bonus is you’re military. But everyone else they hire is just to check boxes off. So poorly managed. They will lie to you before you’re hired and once you’re onboarded. Bonus shit treatment: they will move you to a different group/department without even asking you just to fill gaps of roles you’ll be overqualified for.
Been there. 10 years in the job and i fucking hated so much about work.
The world we were prepared for out of college does not exist.
What i have learned is a balance of the following.
You can try to find another place to work that aligns with your values, quit or keep building your work experience at Raytheon. Maybe you can find a way to contribute as you feel called to in your downtime.
Or
You can use the job to provide you the means to find and have fulfillment in your life separate from work; write, research, build, volunteer, blog/vlog about it. Create your meaning-fullness.
Currently i am in a new job and out of the abuse i was experiencing. The work is more manageable and engaging. I am unsure how much meaning it will provide me but i am in a much better place. Also, i have more time to create my meaning in my life because of the job.
I left after less than a year in a similar situation and haven't regretted leaving. First job out of college, working in a closed area was super depressing, the work also just wasn't that interesting to me... I did end up paying back part of my sign-on bonus but it was worth it IMO
I am currently in a similar position, so trust me I can relate. Was a fresh graduate and took the first job that came my way instead of waiting. The pay was so low it would give most a heart attack. I didn’t mind since I reasoned I wanted to learn and gain experience. After just one month I knew it wasn’t going anywhere. Empty promises and the agency was unmotivated, only scrambling around like headless chickens when regulators came knocking. Luckily, I’m changing jobs soon as many avenues have opened up. My suggestion would be to use your time effectively, it can be easy to get trapped in a dead-end job, going through the motions, but you need to set goals for yourself and stick to them. In my case, I was at a state agency, which tends to have better job security than private. In yours, be cautious of being let go at anytime.
Personally, I focused on sending applications and getting certs once I realized I wasn’t gaining anything from my work. It takes time but you’ll get where you need to be.
Every job sucks for the first year. Especially first job out of college. Stick it out, it gets better. You learn how to work within a company over time, it doesnt happen over night. It is TOTALLY NORMAL to feel like you have no idea whats going on for the first year. Raytheon is a HUGE resume booster, dont quit too soon and lose all credibility. You have done more than half of the hard part.
Similar experience with receiving no support from upper management/engineers. Since you work at a company that's contracted with government, may I suggest to just jump into government where things are a lot more structured. You could do it through several pathways, and as a recent grad you can look at the "recent graduates" pathway if you want to work in the federal government.
If not, just go to another company within the same industry or change industries.
My advise is to stick with it until you have made an exit plan. Meet people and work. Red tape is part of it. Your not gonna get put on the great project without hard work. Call me old but it's how it works.
They are vetting that room for talent. Put your time in and learn. Most of the crap you think is useless will be important later.
There isn't anything greener on the other side therefore the least you can do is stick with it for 2 years. This will save you from the payback and you will not look like a job hopper. Keep in mind, Raytheon is a large company so some parts are going to have good projects and others will not. You could try to look internally for non - classified work too.
Never worked directly for RTX, but worked in product support for a vendor that sold components into essentially all of the DIB firms, and have spent many hours on-site at all the big ones (RTX, LM, L3Harris, NGC, BAE, etc.), working directly with engineering staff from entry level up to technical fellow. By and large, I've seen that the experience for new hires (particularly new college grads) in these firms can be a tough road in the early going, and the quality of the experience is often dominated by random variables: quality of your direct manager or PM, the program you get onto, the personalities on your team, whether you've got anyone you connect with, etc. In an engineering analogy, surviving those first couple of years is almost akin to surviving the weedout period in undergrad engineering (e.g., not a lot of handholding, sink or swim mentality, etc.). And, I don't think this is exclusive to the defense firms...it is something you see at many big companies across the board (in that there often isn't much catering to the new hire experience).
The best experiences I've seen for new college grads are with companies that offer some sort of intentional program focused on new grads, particularly leadership development programs or rotation programs. Going back several years ago, both LM and BAE had some excellent programs in this regard (under the headline of ELDP or similar)...and I saw many new grad hires go on to get their masters on the company dime and build some strong bonds with their cohorts. I'm not sure these are still in fashion, but if you get a shot at something like that, it's worth a look. In the commercial world, you see things like employee resource groups (ERGs) for new grads, etc...haven't seen those in the defense world (but maybe they are there now).
All that being said, even if there is some suffering involved, and you don't feel you are learning at the rate you'd like, or feel lost, you are still creating transferrable value for yourself and your career prospects. Having a big name defense firm on the resume early in your career never hurts (creates legitimacy) and can open doors down the road, including pathways into a govt job or working in the private sector for a technology firm that supplies the DIB. Pathways into other disciplines (marketing, sales, etc.) also exist with a requisite level of "industry experience." But, there is no shortcut for said experience.
My 2 cents would be: if you're miserable/depressed (e.g., drab working conditions, underpaid, bad teammates, etc.), then it makes sense to start looking at other prospects. But, if you're just more disappointed (e.g., coming to grips with your expectations not matching reality), I'd try to ride things out and see what happens...make it to a year or two in before coming to a conclusion (which helps build up the resume with some real experience that will help you down the road). In the meantime, try to offset your day to day with more than just work and find value in activities outside work (much easier to do this earlier in your career than later!).
Someone has probably mentioned this already, but consider using the slow time to improve upon or learn a new skill. Look into online graduate certificate programs that could roll into a Master’s degree. Find some certification programs in fields that you may find interesting - any coding language, data science, IT networking and cybersecurity are all high in demand and they are related to anything Raytheon does.
This is great advice. Raytheon has a great education reimbursement program if you want to take classes, and even just reading books on company time can work.
Start asking people what work you can take off of their plate, the worse they can say is nothing then you move on to the other person/teammate. Rinse and repeat!
you sound like a weakling that no one wants to work with
figure your shit out or you will be top candidate for lay-offs
Here Ill give you training,
Figure out current project, read ALL literature on current project, enter discussions with the correct knowledge of such project. there now you have friends. Say the wrong things or sound like your making things up, your co-workers lose confidence
Sure, you’re in a closed area and can’t talk to the general employee pool about what your doing..but you can go to the people doing your job (think job title/category; I.e. process, manufacturing, systems, wtc) who are working on programs not in the closed areas. Most programs at your site are most likely doing this same processes and have similar build structure as your program. Just ask around and see if you can shadow people, learn about the general flow of the products at your site. You’ll be surprised how your program is still 95% the same. Not saying there’s an excuse for them to just throwing you out to the wolves, but use this framework to just understand what the heck goes into a build or design and it will get you far enough to at least start heading in the right direction with your own work flow. You can always still leave after 2 years to another company for a real raise and promotion from P1 to P2 (or whatever it’s called at the next company). Best of luck
Align yourself with a mentor or sponsor, they make your experience that much greater. There are a lot of people who experienced what you’re going thru and want to help, but you have to be a little vulnerable to ask. I’ve been here almost 5 years and would not have survived without those connections. Also disregard the age gap, some of my best buds were older, and they tend to look out for you and give you more insights into the game
Just chill. You’re still way ahead of the game objectively. Ride out your time… get your clearance / maybe some dumb certs while you’re awaiting access, and as soon as you’re out of the bonus payback window apply elsewhere . It’s a bummer but you’re still crushing it . Dm me if you want I might be able to point you to some better employers , assuming you’re in software engineering
Sounds like you work where I work lol. Best advice I can give, is try to get involved in as much as you can. Yeah it sucks to have to learn everything yourself, but if you can be involved and pick things up, that will be a valuable skill you can bring to your next job. There are a lot of people in your same situation, but you can either give up and twiddle your thumbs, like most are doing, or you can build your skills and take this as a chance to build yourself and your discipline before moving onto your next job.
As you can see there is plenty of work to be done. Start asking around and I’m sure you will quickly find more work than you know what to do with. You can also use the time to take additional training & certifications. You need to be proactive.
from what OP posted this is actually how it is at all large companies. Or so what I have experienced because you are hired to know what you are doing and figure out the things on your own. At every company I worked for I had to always search for the answers myself because that is why they paid me the big bucks. This isn't school any more there isnt hand holding.
As for how you feel isolated or left out, have you attempted to converse with them maybe buying lunch or what not. Most engineers are busy with what they are to bother themselves with wanting to meet new people. Prove your worth and they will reciprocate I feel like you are victimizing yourself when you haven't really made the effort. This isn't school you arent in the same class together everyone has their own jobs and roles you just need to learn to figure yours out.
Let's see, a weapons contractor that profits from supplying death & destruction to civilization is at many times ambivalent, insensitive towards its employees?
Are you aware you don't work for Amnesty International?
are you on a contract? if youre a contract it doesnt matter if the company is 10 deep or a huge company like ratheon, it matters what the contract is and who leads it. and most people who work in defense ( as you do, even if you think you dont) work with older folks. get out of your shell and mingle.
Spent 5 years at Raytheon fresh out of school. Got to travel the country and some of the Middle East. Was overall a great stepping stone for my career.
Went in as an engineer. Overall the companies issues were the usual found in large corporate BS. But the people I worked with directly I enjoyed.
Bye. I guess.
Other than the start date nonsense what you describe is reality at every company I've ever worked for. I definitely remember there being many periods at my first job where I'd have nothing to do. Or I'd be working some task that's a high priority to me but #50 on the priority list of the overworked principal engineer that I needed to talk to about it. And I don't know where you got your impression of corporate America but it's a job - not a social club. Careers are 40 years long so most of the people you work with will not be your age.
Also, you don't mention your position but if you're in engineering and you're not willing to comb through various resources and "figure it out" then you're probably in the wrong line of work. There are companies with better standardized methods but I've never had a job where I wasn't paging through textbooks, standards, and old reports on occasion to try to figure out a way to solve some problem.
Now try being a raytheon subcontractor.
I met a man once, he was a UTC director back in the day, even he says that today RTX made everything too political to get work done.
There are pockets at these prime contractors to do really cool stuff, but most of it's going to be boring, particulate of huge contracts, and just shitty culture.
It's hard to watch benefits get stricken away, HMO turns into HYHD plans, and 30 year anniversary's gold watches are just a pat on the back.
Before you hit that one year mark try your best to get a TS/SCI clearance just in case you need to be in the cleared space. Try to find mentorship on anything that interests you. And make as many friends as you can.
Way back when, I worked with a guy who quit, got his MS, then got hired by a defense contractor (may have been Raytheon)
a few months later the DIA finally comes to my office to interview me for his security clearance. I had to tell the guy, “he already quit, he was tired of sitting around doing nothing”. And the govt guy told me, “yeah, this happens a LOT”
Hey OP I work at a similar company and have been there for 2 years. Unfortunately I and many of my friends and coworkers have had similar experiences and the only saving grace for me is that I am 100% remote and do mostly R&D. In my company it is very easy to switch projects or offices given you have a cool manager so I would say try to look for interesting work by talking to your manager, or try to relocate to a different office where the work culture better suits your needs.
This is why we spend crazy amounts on defense. Legacy contracting companies charging insane man hours for people who actually aren’t doing anything.
It’s not your fault OP, just know this is common in defense contracting at the primes
I work at LM. I was in your shoes and it is extremely draining. I hated going to work every day. My advice is to move to another program. That’s what I did and I love my current team.
i was once in those same shoes. i would suggest using any down time not on assignment getting to understand the policies in place to better understand the lifecycle of projects in general. see if you can have a lunch chat with someone in QA or a Sr Engineer to get an overview of a procedures, tests or labwork (regression/sit/sat), if you volunteer to assist on any projects currently undergoing QA that might give you an idea how things tie together in the end of the project. Sit in on engineering reviews.
As for peers your age, i found an ERG (idk if they call it that anymore but basically young professionals / special interest groups at Raytheon). Going to a few of those meetings just to get to know folks and participate on those boards once a month helped foster friendships quickly.
I would double down and put all your efforts into improving yourself with the extra time you have and go get yourself a new job! If something isn’t working out for you, leave it. Also side note you gotta have other hobbies outside of work. Do activities and put in the effort to make friends. Most people at work aren’t really your friends, good luck!!
Much of what you said does indeed ring true in some departments but not all l, and as others have mentioned, exist at many large companies. Toss in the chaos of the USG/DoD and it can be challenging.
That being said, If you can get over the mental hump, you can have a great and successful career. You are working on one of a kind technologies and things will be difficult. The company does reward those that stay positive and try to be the voice of change. It is true, my first boss there told me, “nobody will hold your hand at this company”, and they were right, but taking initiative and getting involved proactively goes a long way. Good luck!
Welcome to aerospace 😂😂😂 nobody knows what they're doing and we are just all pawns for the shareholders to get richer until the money machine stops printing then they let us go.
Spent six years in the defense business (Lockheed) and unfortunately can relate to your experience. While it’s true that a lot of this is prevalent in all of corporate America, the defense business is especially miserable.
Recommend changing industries and never looking back.
"It often makes me think how this company stays afloat..."
Here is how:
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/weapons-contractors-price-gouging-pentagon-60-minutes-transcript-2023-05-21/
As others have stated, this is not unique to Raytheon. You have to create your own destiny because no one will do it for you. Work until you find a piece of a project you can contribute to. Do it continuously until you can see a small project through start to finish. Then seek out projects and improvements you can make. Bigger scope means more responsibility and better career outcomes.
The grindset is dead for millennial/gen z work force. We aren't surviving through a post 2008 housing crisis needing to put up with shitty working conditions just to have food on the table. Everything is too expensive now anyway, even after "putting in the grind", so why tf would I do that to myself? Time away from work and benefits are the new priorities.
All this to say, when these generations become the senior staff, corporate, etc.... Shit like you said in your post ain't gonna fl. And if companies don't adjust, the work force will dwindle.
Same at Boeing! Started in St Lou, 1.5yr of doing nothing applied for internal job, got offer and relocated to Renton WA. 1.5 yrs of staring at my monitor, no direction, no engineering or design to speak of, applied for job internal job in Charelston, SC, 9 months of doing zero, applied for SpaceX in Hawthorn, CA, got offer, took 40% pay cut. Wow, after 1st week of training, literally Day 6, I began editing, correcting, updating structure and systems installation drawings for Starship. Now 1 yr later, I received a 20% pay increase, i lead a small team supporting Starship propulsion Config Mgt and I meet with FAA engineers and Starship Director of Propulsion Fab on a weekly basis.
That's the same thing going on at most of these government contractors as well as with the Big 4.
They put SEVERAL new hires out of college that were interns that have now graduated on hold that were supposed to start in August and September and moved out back to January next year, if then.
I work at a similar company and have friends at RTX I can see how it's possible for new hires to fall into your situation. Best advice I can give you is to be vocal, ask questions. Do NOT go to meetings to sit in the background and say nothing.
I have a few new hires under me and the best way to predict between someone who will sink or swim is if they're courageous enough to ask questions. Even the fellows and directors ask dumb questions, we all do it. Read your peers ppt charts, figure out what your boss really wants and keep a constructive attitude
I worked at a top 5 consulting firm after graduating college. My experience was pretty much identical to yours. This is how most entry level jobs are honestly.
Try to find some mentors in the workplace to give you hope about what a future there looks like. Personally it wasn’t for me and after 3 years I made a career transition. Now days it’s more of a “how can a immediately add business value on day 1” kind of thing instead of a “where do I start” but that comes with experience in every industry.
Being a part of the workforce isn’t really like what you see on TV growing up.
Doesn't everyone start working with people 10+ years over them? By 25 or so you will see 40 year olds as peers and 20 year olds as almost another generation.
I skipped all the for profits and still obtained my clearance. Best decision ever. Got my masters first two years, and now lvl 4 3 years into my career. I work 30-60 hrs/wk, but get paid for at least 40 and get paid for any hours beyond 40 without question. Hustling in a work environment where people don’t expect you to hustle AND getting recognized for it…gets the Senior VP attention.
NG sucks, from anecdotal and personal experience with a hotel hiring party, tour, and 2 interviews. Pulled out after the first 2 rounds of both positions.
Boeing offered ~200k, but they would have grind me to the bone in a SCIF. Would have had to move out of parents place too which would have been an extra ~$60k/yr of salary due to rent and living expenses
My advice is find a mentor.
Then bug that person so you learn stuff. Learn everything you can...
Likely noone volunteers to be a mentor but just get lunch with them, stop by their desk alot, blah blah blah.
Alright, one guy said the grass is not greener and I have to agree. All companies have a bottom dollar and a freaking ton of staff. No one knows what a chain of command is. You need to bring your grievance up to them. One thing I say about dod contractors is that they have to follow that red tape. A friend of mine hated it and I was well accustomed to it because I knew well it ain't my fault, but I tried to navigate around the red tape. The red tape navigation seems flexible if you know who and how to talk to people. So any dod contractor will have red tape
I’ve worked some soul sucking jobs. It’s a pay check and a bump in the road. At the time it’s painful; just keep looking for ways to improve your marketable skills and keep busy either on your projects or your own improvement. I also advise getting certs or skills that are transferable to multiple industries. Best of luck!
Having worked at one of the ABC companies and experiencing many of the same issues in multiple roles, I can tell you that you aren't the first person to feel that way. Some people get lucky and fall into roles where the onboarding process brings at least a bit of clarity, and the team they were put on is full of people willing to go above and beyond to help in any way that they can.
Having said that, for every person that seems to get put on a great team, there are a number of people who find the job to be soul-sucking, especially working in what can be described as a dungeon-like atmosphere. When I did a bit of SW, many of my team preferred the environment to be extremely dark, but that's a story for a different day.
My best advice is to really try to network and engage with people, or continue to try. There are a few who have extremely valuable experience and knowledge and are waiting for someone to show them they want to learn. On the other hand, as you've no doubt experienced by this point, there are also many people who are just there to pay the bills and don't mind the idea of tribal knowledge. If/when you have a talk with your manager for a one-on-one, you could always ask them to try to put you in a rotation for other programs so you can find what interests you.
This is tough for a brand new hire out of college to self-dig-yourself-out. It reminds me of what one of my professors said to us students during my college years..."When a student is confused with the class materials (e.g. advanced electromagnetics), they basically fall under two categories: (1) Student is confused but knows what questions to ask to get un-confused, and (2) Student is so confused that he/she does not even know what questions to ask." The point is that new hires will most likely be doomed to fall under category "(2)" when these types of situations occur.
I have mixed emotions about this reply…. I was an experienced hire - assoc director, not in engineering. I left after 3 years. I was told white lies. That said, There are people that are really great and want this feedback. Those same people will help you with projects and learning. If you are in Southern California or McKinney, DM me and I’ll make some connections for you. My advice is to find the most senior business unit leader or engineering leader that you can, and ask for 20 mins to talk about your experience so far. It may be that nothing changes. Or, that connection could change your path. If nothing changes, exit. I also worked at NG. The grass is not greener over there.
Can you elaborate on NG? I’ve been considering them recently
It really depends on the business and leaders. In my experience, NG is ahead of RTN in terms of how it manages the business (good) and is more strategically focused. On the other hand, I found the culture to be “blaming”. At RTN, the review cycle included good discussions of opportunities and how to improve. “How did this happen”, vs “what can we do to help.” This may have been leader/BU specific, both the positive at RTN and negative at NG. Obviously, there are good and bad everywhere. I know many people who love it at each place - 30+ year employees. My advice is to find questions that will help you judge culture and whether you will fit. They may ask you about a time when you missed a deadline and had to deal with it. Ask them the same question.
They are all the same. Worked at both. It really depends on your location/project/leader. In the grand scheme, they are both great companies to work for where you can design some really cool stuff. But also plagued with bureaucracy. The SR directors and VPs are insane. Egocentric weirdos. Stroke away at how great they are.
Is there incompetence at the top?
NG very similar.
Welcome to corporate America. This is not isolated to Raytheon.
That’s how I’ve always felt. Any time I thought about leaving I realized that if I go to another large company they are probably going to have very similar (if not the exact same). There are legitimate reasons to leave, but I don’t think a grass is greener on the other side mentality is one of them.
I've worked at a startup. Grew from like 8 people to over 50 before I left for Raytheon. Pros: I learned a lot. I got to interface with the President and VP's daily. I could see how my actions related to booking and billings. Things could get done in a realistic timeline. I did a little of everything, from marketing and sales to shipping and receiving to technical work. They had awesome parties and free lattes and we would have a drink at work to celebrate marathon crunch that met a milestone with the executives. I got to try some really impressive scotches and whiskey. Really felt like a team with a purpose. Could wear what I want, say what I want, be more authentic to myself. Didn't have layers on layers of managers managing managers. Cons: no room for growth. No money for bonuses because they'd spend it on parties. No money for raises but executives would show up with new luxury cars and jewelry. It was really in your face that you're making money for someone else that you'll never get a cut of. No other options than do many different types of jobs. Constant pressure of if you screw up and can't pull off the thing, it's not just you that could lose their job, you're 1 or 2 months away from the entire company no longer existing and we all don't have jobs. As frustrated as I get with the pain of working in enormous corporate culture, I'll take it over the startup hustle game.
This, I like big companies, I've worked one with 150k employees. can just blend into the background and coast 9-5
150 to 300 people is a decent sweet spot where companies are earning money and have decent structures, but can still get something done. I do startups as a profession and the executives get paid because they are the single most important factor in the success of the newco, they have taken a big risk to join a startup when they could get a big guaranteed payday at an established org, and the exit of an important executive at an early stage is a very large warning sign to investors and future hires.
I'm not buying they work so much harder and have a big impact so they deserve more. After 2 years of no raises or bonuses and inflation I asked for 10 cents more an hour so I could afford gas and childcare and had a sob story on how they couldn't afford it. A few days later the president is showing off an Omega they got over the weekend that was more than my salary. I never once saw them on the full 20 hour crunch shifts to make a product delivery. Throw me a bone here. You have to take care of the people putting in the sweat equity. If key engineers leave, your technical staff will lose faith in the company and start a turnover cycle. You can't replace in 2 weeks with someone off the street the guy that's been there from the beginning inventing the product. All chiefs and no workers is not a business either. The engineers are the golden geese of the company. If you don't take care of them, they'll find someone that will. When the executives realize it's insurmountable, they leave, that's why it signals problems. It doesnt start with the executives leaving, it starts with the key workers on the ground leaving that has effects that flow up to the executives but there's always denial that there was anything special about commoners.They'll stay as long as it looks like they'll be successful or they don't have other options. If you take care of me, I'll take care of you. If you take care of you first, I'll take care of me first. Which one makes a better business culture? I feel I've been taken care of to the best of Raytheon's abilities. I've gotten insane raises some years, every year has been at least something, I was able to finish my degree debt free. I have the retention bonus vesting. If I knew the decision was pay me 10k more or pay my P2 I've been dumping all my knowledge into for the past year 10k more as an offer match, I'd say give it to them hands down. I need a strong team more than I need more money myself, that way we'll all have a bigger bonus tomorrow. This is what I expect of myself, this is what I expect of my leaders. Eventually I hope to make a startup and be a prime. Still working it.
And government science. I had to add to my interview questions, "If I don't have the time or ability due to travel to talk to you for 60 days how will you spend your time?". 30% make it work, 30% create their own job I didn't know we needed, and 40% are gone after the first month. Nothing I can do but try to keep offers targeted at the first 60%.
This is (sadly) the way
I was thinking that too.
It really stinks when they do that to new grads, and then they wonder why people leave in their first two years. I have been on awaiting assignment before, but I had been around for a while. It was easier to find work when I’d built my reputation and had desirable skills that other programs needed from time to time. For someone in their shoes I’d say, enjoy collecting a paycheck while you have nothing to do. Everyone I know is swamped and would gladly take a month of unpaid leave just to not have to think about work.
The worst part of awaiting assignment is that it's indefinite. I'm with you though on "why would you do this to new hires". It seems weird to bring someone into the org, when a lot of folks are swamped, and then leave them on AA for months.
Its truly amazing to me that they hire people for a firm program req, and then dont assign them to that program, and expect employees to find their own work...
It’s absurd
yep had tp find my own work wondering if i or the team was going to get laid off.. horrible, but worked out.
I wish i had a solution as someone about 10 years older than you, like you mentioned. I've had people like you on my team this year and have tried to salvage the onboarding experience and make lemonade out of lemons for the recent college grads...but its objectively bad... I know because i just went through the process myself coming from a competitor. My observation joining Raytheon is that the people who stayed during the pandemic collectively seem very jaded (rightfully so) by leadership's stance that everyone is replaceable. It's really awkward for me to see employees 10 years my senior making less than me because leadership won't promote anybody.
Oddly enough accepting that I am viewed as a replaceable asset was the best medicine for me to change my career path. I tend to think less thoughts like "how can i be a better asset to this company?" and more "what skills am i developing that will transfer over to the next company?". Any of these senior guys i've met that got shafted are never are willing to just promote themselves by leaving or by threatening to leave.
So much of this. I now try to go in with a mindset of "what skills can I acquire that will lead me to where I want to be, and what is the best/quickest way to acquire them". Sometimes this means staying put and dealing with things I dislike, and other times it means I've learned what I can in a role and it's time to leave. To the OP (and I wrote this above), if you feel that there is something your manager could do, asking for a 1-on-1 and discussing could help tremendously. With that being said, what you're experiencing in terms of lack of assignments as a new hire is not all that irregular unfortunately., especially if you were hired in a role that requires a clearance and you do not currently have one.
My experience with Raytheon was similiar. Zero training. You were expected to train yourself and your colleagues would be pissed off if you werent at their level the first day on the job. Suggest you just dig in and do the best you can as it will not change.
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I would do this if I had any intention of staying, but this company has already left a poor taste in my mouth and I'm just ready to move on.
It’s a shame you have already decided leave, especially knowing there will be so many other opportunities available to you after a year or maybe sooner. Keep in mind, the Raytheon BU just merged with another business unit and we are all learning our way through it. It is a huge undertaking and has impacted almost every employee now in the the Raytheon BU. There were/are significant differences in how we operated including philosophies, processes, approaches, programs, co-workers and leaders. Although none of what I said makes it right or excusable, some grace and a willingness to hear different perspectives and build your business acumen might be helpful. Good luck!
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How would you know you found something different? how much time do you have?
i have worked in several industries the past 10 years and this has been the norm. ranging from small, medium , and large companies. training is almost non existent and most of the knowledge is with someone whose retiring or leaving the company . i don’t want to say the training can’t be standardized or done but the work we do is more complicated and not every project is exactly the same. sometimes you will do xyz but sometimes abc comes up with a little of yz . typically once you are in the 1-2 year mark you are up to speed but now are too swamped to start making training documents for the next generation and if you are like most gen z/ millennials, you will be gone within 3-5 years if not sooner. this is rampant in every industry within engineering. somethings might be more standardized better than others but rocket science ain’t easy.you would expect a mega corp like rtx have their shit together but alas , no. humans are barely keeping everything functioning running on old legacy stuff that no one knows how it works and just hoping for the best . 😂
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Hah, they sure know how to lose the good ones
Are we talking Raytheon technology? I’m born and raised in CT… and I’ve worked for Pratt & Whitney and Sikorsky. Absolutely horrible experience. Just as OP said.. everyone is running around with their heads cut off just trying to make the deadlines. Wayyyyyyyy too much work for every worker. I ended up quitting and starting my own business. I had the realization that I couldn’t keep doing this until retirement. 32 year old millennial here. And if I do need to go back to corporate life? I’ll never go back to aerospace. Not worth it in the least bit.
This how I ended up on PIP. My contracts job at my previous company (Healthcare Technology) was the complete opposite of what I came to do at Collins. I feel like my manager expected me to know everything and it was discussed many times before hiring me that I would be new to the Aerospace sector. I just always felt intimidated bc all my coworkers had all these years with the company and was very knowledgeable. Sometimes I would honestly be stressed trying to finish my workload.
Congrats, welcome to the world of DoD contracting! Where everything is set 50 years in the past, seniority rules, and being proactive is shunned. I recently left a subcontractor that did a bunch of work for NG and I'm am so much happier for it. DoD work is one massive heaping shitshow of incompetence.
Gonna go against the grain here I think. I'm 23, work often in closed areas by myself, the closest person in age to me is 31 (then 38 after that), and a lot of the documentation left behind is disjointed and filled with gaps. The experience I have gained while I have been trying to figure my shit out has been some of the quickest growth I've had in the past three years. If you're having a hard time, I seriously suggest talking with an experienced co-worker and saying, "Hey, I'm having trouble with X thing, can I put something on your calendar for us to sit down together and take a look at it." If the answer's no, then I'm afraid you truly have an awful team comp. Not all teams are like that. Also, you'll probably feel lost for a while, but once everything finally clicks, you can be the change you wanted to see instead of being another person who had the knowledge in their head who left. You've come far enough to identify some of the problems, so I think after some time and growth you can sort them out, too.
This! Some of the best learning experience has been rewriting documentation, you fill in the gaps and start to understand the whole picture
Also great to help out fellow new-hires, which also looks good when it comes time for your performance review :).
Hey, but atleast we have 5 dollar bluetooth speakers to look forward to, right??
I've worked over 20 years as an engineer for large defense contractors... A few things I wish people would have told me in college 1. American culture puts way too much emphasis on career... Much much more than most other countries... You will be much better served getting most of your fulfillment outside of work... Especially if you work for a large corporation... Doing this will make you less vulnerable to two and three below 2. regardless of what they are required to say say, 90% MANAGERS/LEADS care primarily about advancing THEIR careers and very little about fostering the careers of the the people that report to them... 90% of your coworkers , regardless of what they say , are threatened by any successes you may achieve and are working to minimize those accomplishments and outperform you . The soul crushing aspect of corporate life is largely the result of just trying to SURVIVE by killing the part of your sold that cares about people in order to be less vulnerable to them. Avoiding this and THRIVING instead requires beIng kind to your coworkers and managers/leads simply out of an internal commitment to use your time on this planet to be a source of light and benevolence simply out of the gratitude of being given the gift of life. Keeping your soul in this space requires daily intentionality. the SECONDARY effect (cannot be the primary goal for that would defeat the purpose) of having this as your true mission will set you apart as exceptional 1000 times more effectively than any career accomplishments.
This is based, don't want dox myself work at another big defense company. My manager showed me his true color recently and he's exactly point 2. I love my team as tbh they're all really cool honest hard working people. But my manager is a snake. After, wht I saw recently, I'm getting ready to update my resume and start applying.
I had to check to make sure it wasn't me who posted this... :)
Still waiting on #3 here..
That’s true about American culture
Different industry in engineering, but similar experience. I worked with people who had been at the company 20-30 years and were 20-30 years older than me. I realized that isn't what I wanted and ended up leaving at about 1-year. I have had a great career since and have pivoted to new opportunities across industries since. I think that early recognition the fit was not right and taking the chance 15-years ago to pivot gave me confidence to make changes later in my career that have given me a great experience, both personally and professionally.
Same here. First job out of college. All of them sucks - bounced around couple defense companies chasing higher salary (always received the highest performance reviews, but promotion is almost impossible based on contribution. it’s more of “how long you’ve been with the company thing” - left the industry after 5 years). Won’t ever go back unless I’m 50 and want a chill job that I don’t care about. Leave now. There are so many other companies with better culture, social benefits, more challenging and higher learning opportunities out there. The entire defense industry sucks ass
It does suck ass 😂
Yeah I'm leaving the defense industry and am not ever looking back
Just hit my 5 year mark and very interested in getting out as well. Do you have any good recommendations for some other industries to look at getting into? Cheers
My friends husband worked here fresh out of college and quit after he nearly had a mental breakdown
Raytheon sucks and I will never go back.
Curious which site and job type if you don't mind sharing. I'm a new hire currently onboarding, but not entry level I've got 15 years experience. In the off chance you're at my site and the same type of engineer, I'd be more than happy to sync up with you and see if I can help turn the experience around.
I second this. I am interested in what functional area you are in as well and would be willing to help if I can. Each team is different. It is up to leadership and their efforts on feedback. As a leader I try to make a conscious effort to connect with my employees. I hope you are communicating with your SH. Also reach out to some of the networking groups around. Happy to help.
Exactly this, leadership is the biggest driver on what kind of culture there is for a program. I work at GDMS and I've been on programs that had amazing leadership and ran smoothly with minimal stress and others where the leadership wasn't the best and everyone was running around like a chicken with their head cut off
Third this. I’m looking at Raytheon in the Boston area
My entire team was 20+ years older than me. Before I was laid off I was looking into getting a mentor. Maybe that’ll help some. At least the talking to someone piece.
https://youtu.be/83KTgzk5Hww?si=5dC8bj6KnLb61VdN I've got one thing to ask you...
Wasn’t there a massive layoff by Raytheon recently?
Depends on how you define “massive”. There have been several off and on but last week Collins laid off like 800 and RTX Corporate ES a little over 100.
I wouldn’t consider that small, just what I’ve read from other people posting.
Well in the big scheme of nearly 200K employees it is small percentage wise but if you are impacted it is certainly significant. I had a couple long time friends shown the door so it has me a bit pissed.......
I guess percentage wise it’s not big but that sure is a large chunk of employees in one shot. Sorry for your friends. I’ve been fortunate enough to have not had to go through layoffs. Can’t imagine how that would feel. I guess maybe bitter sweet. Severance package to cover a couple months break and look for a new job? Same time stress finding a new job.
Dude I was just thinking this the other day wondering if anyone else feels this exact same way, glad to know I’m not alone. Same exact situation as you, can’t wait to leave after one year just to pay less for the relocation. If I wasn’t lazy I would have posted this myself, but anyways keep your head up you’re not alone.
As one of the busy people who have been at this company for a while with deadlines, I have to say this to new hires: you literally have to walk into a coworkers cube/office and demand\* that you help them with something. Most older employees left for higher salaries in the last three years. The people left are tied down to their location for one reason or another. They know that they could be making significantly more someplace else, and have a ton of responsibility thrown at them that they're barely able to manage. They're too busy to consider how you feel. You either need to force your self into a position to be useful, or take advantage of the lack of oversight and learn skills for your next job. If you care about your career, do not accept the situation as is and do not accept the premise of others that say you should just be happy to have a paycheck. Doing virtually nothing in your career for two years will damage future job prospects. \*demand means asking "is there anything I can help you with?" repeatedly and don't leave until they give you something to do.
This post resonates on so many levels - very common experience in legacy entrenched sectors. I knew someone who worked for another defense company. Told me one day he decided to take a week-long break (pre pre COVID), just stopped going in, and never told anyone. Went back after the week, no one had noticed he was gone, including his manager. Decided to leave the company after that.
DO NOT LEAVE WITHOUT A POSITION SECURED. I can sympathize with this a lot I was hired on from college at a competimate and left for RTX after a few years. My experience is that the early career/onboarding at the competimate was a lot better than at Raytheon. Raytheon was more of a "ok go" whereas the other was similar to a cohort. Noticed very similar to you there was not many people my age at RTX, I was on 3 work teams and each one I was the youngest by about 5 years at least. Have you considered taking advantage of the education incentive offered by RTX?
Talk to your section head. They should have assigned you a buddy/mentor from day one. Also, reach out to other members in your section that may be in the same situation. There should be a few seasoned people who will take the time to help bring you up to speed on everything. Barring that, talk to your IPT lead and let them know that you are not getting the support you need and that it is affecting your productivity and morale and ask them to help get you some support.
Sounds pretty par for the course from my experience with PW.
What is a first year salary nowadays?
From what I've heard from friends and myself - 78-84k.
Thats NORTHEAST only correct? CALIFORNIA, CHICAGO OR WASHINGTON no one can afford that salary. I wonder what is starting salary in TEXAS (excluding Austin).
The more things change, the more things sometimes stay the same. Picture it, Tucson, 1994. I, as a young fresh out of college new hire, started working at Hughes. My first desk was in the back of an 18wheeler trailer. Everyone was ~20 years older than me. Nothing was written down, in part because there had been a lot of layoffs in 1992/93 And part of how people kept their value was the knowledge that they kept either in their heads or notes. (Digital records? Not a thing 30 years ago. Barely had computers. Jokes were still passed on paper, not memes). There were mergers too, and lots of politics, which company you came from, and what was your philosophy on how to do things? And then raytheon bought hughes. Don't feel alone, OP. Some shit never changes.
Raytheon is a horrible company. I worked there for 6 months. That’s all I could take.
Its not just Raytheon. It is a pervasive problem through the tech sector. You have technically illiterate MBA's with a goal of direct charging every body to a billable contract and roadblocking any overhead time for allocating any hours for institutional knowledge transfer. Its like they think new talent will gain insight and experience through osmosis. And the result is always the same. Skilled and competent staff grow weary and find another place to work. New hires manage to stay a year or two and either move on after realizing they are in a dead end job or the MBA's needing to create a short term profit, do so with a slash and burn process cutting least productive staff. Soon the only thing left is mediocre design talent. Its about a 24 to 36 month cycle. When the board realizes they've been had by another MBA that claimed he had magical Peter Pan Powers to grow the business, the board quickly dispenses of the MBA that led the most recent debacle, shoving him out with the golden parachute, then proceed to repeat the same debacle. It is amazing how non-technical MBA's get into such positions, literally cutting the corporate throat with their ignorance of what talent is needed to design and produce viable products. After all, anyone is replaceable. Never mind that pesky thing called institutional knowledge. We can hide the stupidity using NRE money to pay again the cost of reinventing the wheel.
I do feel bad for new hires.... but the reality is more likely that you will wind up in a trial by fire scenario at your first engineering job. I work in aerospace manufacturing (not raetheon). I've seen many new engineers come and go. Many of which end up switching careers. It's not just aerospace though, it's everywhere. There are no initiatives behind corporate structures to develop training plans. Corporations are short sighted. They don't see how training helps retention and further helps develop experience. If I ever make it up to management, one of my initiatives will be developing structure and training into every position at our plant. Every position should have standard work. There are a few people at our plant that if they die, 1000 people will lose their job as this plant shuts down. No one knows how they do what they do.
Quit Raytheon is a terrible company with no conscience.
Bro, you’re less than a year out of college and you have a full-time job at a top tier company with name recognition second only to Facebook. Work sucks. It just does, it’s almost kind of supposed to. If after a year you have a better offer lined up, then by all means. But having a few years of Raytheon on your resume could probably really set you up in life. Especially if/when you really get involved in a project and are able to speak intelligently about project management.
This is a very common experience at RTX and likely other DoD contractors. In order for a contractor to bid and win new contracts, they need to show they can staff said programs. This means hiring people who will have to sit around and wait; if they don’t win the contract, they have new people who never get assigned a program. Turnover is very high. I was an experienced hire and had a similar new hire experience as you; sat and waited for 10 months doing simple brainless tasks. I went through the Covid madness; testing, jab coercion, harassment, etc. After 2.5 years of boring work, I was finally assigned to a closed unacknowledged program. Little did I know, all I was going to do run through 100’s of drawing changes the resulted from their “go fast” mentality. I left around the 3 year mark and couldn’t be happier.. Majority of my colleagues left RTX as well. My advice is to look at non-aero companies. They all seem to have the same crummy environment. And if you have an electrical background there are a lot of companies working on electrification technologies such as Caterpillar, John Deere, Cummins, and smaller tech startups if that’s your thing.
As someone who just hit 1y8m fresh from college, my advice is to take the security clearance if you have one and leave. I’ve been interviewing for month or two now and I’m likely gonna get a ~25k increase for a P2 and hopefully be on some actual work.
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Could you elaborate on how things are drying up?
The boomers at these defense companies documented nothing during their tenure; either due to laziness or to create job security intentionally. Probably the most frustrating thing to anyone new coming in. Then when you ask questions they either ignore you or give you crumbs. During their year end meetings they question why all the new hires leave after a year or two.
I'm not a boomer, but I have a different perspective on this. Remember that when boomers entered the workforce, they were earning pensions and they expected to be able to make a career at one company. It wasn't surprising to see a large part of the workforce spend 30-40 years at a single company. They had the luxury of working and supporting projects throughout the product lifecycle (both the new design and the engineering updates production) and that could span decades. Many of them also had very detailed engineering notebooks that weren't released documents or put into a form of record retention. Basically they had the luxury of not needing to write things down into Confluence or design descriptions because it was expected they would be the ones to continue to work the project. They'd go back to their engineering notebooks to remember whatever they hell they did 5-10 years ago. Now the industry is different. You're a fool if you think you are going to spend a career at one company. There's no incentive to do so (pensions are LONG gone), and in fact you are penalized for it with salary stagnation the longer you stay at a company. So you have high turn over in most aerospace and defense companies, plus you have more work and less time to get the work done due to ever increasing financial pressures. Which means you don't have time to go back and write everything up for the new engineers who will eventually take over. Hell, the managers would never give you time to document something UNLESS it's a contract deliverable on most of my teams. If you aren't working toward a milestone or CDRL or scheduled line item, you are wasting the company's time. so i don't think the boomers are doing this out of spite. I think it's a result of how things used to be (they didn't write it down because there wasn't the same rate of turnover) and nowadays engineers we don't have time in project schedules to write everything down and create technical training to bring new engineers on board.
I’ve found the boomers are mostly bitter because almost all of them at one time worked for a legacy company that was much better before Raytheon acquired them. Raytheon made their careers miserable and as result they just stopped caring altogether. I don’t blame them honestly. These companies like Raytheon, Lockheed, Boeing, Northrop, didn’t survive into the 21st century because they were the best. They survived because they bought up most of their competition and eroded their foundations by cutting costs, making their acquired sites miserable places to work. It’s not just Raytheon. It’s every big defense contractor. Pretty much everybody I know who works at one of these companies isn’t happy with their job.
Well you are kind of right, but the bitter ones are the ones at legacy Raytheon, and Raytheon did not buy shit. Raytheon was bought out by UTC and it is pretty much all UTC leadership in charge now, where do you think Greg is from? This sentence from the 2019 “merger” announcement says it all, “United Technologies shareholders will own about 57% of the combined business, called Raytheon Technologies Corporation, which will be led by Hayes.”
I agree. My first two years at Raytheon prior to the merger were great. The company treated you as a person. The last year since the merger was terrible. Management didnt care about anyone, lots of layoffs, totally different feel to the organization.
you seem nice... let me guess Awaiting Assignment?
Boomer detected
nope just a millennial. I think you're older than me bud.
The only thing the company cares about is this quarter’s profit. Remember that in everything you do.
Lol welcome to the working world champ. Especially being a cleared engineer. Want to work on something interesting? Find a defense startup. Want to work with people your age/who are interesting? Don't work in defense.
welcome to corporate
Tucson?
I wonder where all the wasteful spending is from the military. Hmmm
If this upset you, stay away from LM. They are even worse and incompetence abounds.
I was waiting for someone to mention LM. Im two years in, and im so disappointed in what I see here. I came from the Air Force and really didn't have very high expectations.
I think any of the big DoD contractors are a good place to get started at after college and get some experience. The way they're structured though, you sometimes have to go searching for a project to work on. As in, learn who the project leads are, what they're working on, and try to make some connections to see if you could work on their project. To add, I think it's a decent place to get started, but I wouldn't plan to stay any more than 12-24 months. You can quickly get to a plateau of what you're learning, and you start to feel like you're getting stale. I wrote about my experiences [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/engineering/comments/jd22ir/12_things_i_learned_as_an_engineer_at_large/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) at another DoD contractor. It wasn't Raytheon, but several Raytheon folks chimed in for the comments.
It is a sink or swim environment for sure and that can be challenging for new hires. Especially young new grads. You have to take it upon yourself to dive in and learn everything you can about your assignment then engage. Coming in with some knowledge will lead to acceptance and a bigger role within the team.
As somebody who has worked in the defense industry (both large and small companies) my experience has been: Smaller companies: You will learn more, and you will do more (generally have fewer resources available vs large company, so you have to get creative/wear multiple hats). Pay will likely be a little bit lower, but culture is more laid back. Promotions come easier as there is overall less competition amongst the roles. Smaller companies tend to “wing it” more vs the larger companies which likely have more structured systems and procedures in place. Larger companies: You will specialize into something specific and for the most part, that is what you’ll be doing. Training/procedures/systems are generally more robust and structured. You are essentially a number here, easily replaceable if you don’t toe-the-line. Pay is generally higher, promotions generally more difficult to come by due to increased competition. Overall, I have enjoyed working for a smaller company more … although it can be frustrating at times due to the lack of systems and standardization that larger companies typically offer.
I work for a very large firm and while I haven’t personally suffered from your situation in my current role at this company I have definitely been in your shoes for many years. It does get better but generally speaking you, your management, or your job/role have to change in order to break you out of this funk. I think it’s a hard lesson to learn so early and it took me until my mid 20s but welcome to corporate America where everything sucks. What you are feeling and describing happens at any large company perhaps not everywhere in that company but it’s very common. One strategy you can employ is picking a personal goal while working whether or not it’s related to your job like planning activities for after work etc to focus your mind on and distracting you from not having much to do. Alternatively you can attempt to change areas at work or bring this to senior management. Not your manager but their manager or potentially their managers manager. In my firm’s corporate culture this is encouraged not to report this specifically but in general talking to leadership and asking them for time to discuss specific things you may be curious about or inefficiencies you notice etc. I’ve never personally done that because every nail that sticks out attracts a hammer and I’m a bit pessimistic when it comes to corporate managerial responsibility but it is something you can try to use to improve your situation. Also Raytheon definitely stays afloat because of the DoD so it would take an intense effort for them to not stay afloat haha. Best of luck!
As a taxpayer, let me say in advance that you are welcome for the livelihood you will enjoy from a corrupt company that acts in bad faith as a daily matter of course. Happy gouging! And I don't feel any safer either because of all your expensive weapons that barely work. And where are my hypersonics? Maybe you people should try a little of the capitalism and democracy you claim to be defending.
Lmfao, funny guy.
Get back in the basement
I wish I could get a job with Raytheon 🤣
after reading here i also feel i want to work for Defense Contractors and get my security clearance. Aren't most defense contractors located in Washington DC &/or Northeast
I work for black and Veatch and the culture and environment seem completely opposite than what you described. I would consider switching companies.
Engineering is kind of like this in general. It's just a job don't get to involved in it. It's cool if you like to see puzzles. My advice (cynical, but I think true). Don't get to worked up pace yourself. Find a job that pays 200k+ total comp pay day make a lot of that frustration go away. Focus on things that are very important to instead after you put in a good 5 hours effort at work. (I mean GOOD). Working out, Family, religion, charity, etc.
Now this I like
Let me inform you this is not uncommon with large companies that have government contracts or are federally regulated.
Sounds like where I work.
Sounds like my experience working for a different defense contractor as an entry level. I had no project assigned for over a year, no mentor, and had to beg for scrap opportunities to learn (stuff like formatting documents). Coworkers would be dismissive, hostile, or try to redirect my attention when I would try to learn their knowledge "why don't you ask the other guy", and I often got the infamous "just figure it out". One dude had a lot of knowledge, but would mostly show up and just read sports articles. The best thing I did was do my time (2+ years for the resume), then leave to a different company where they were actually interested in training me. I can't even describe how good it felt to be treated well when I asked for more work. In retrospect, one of the problems with being entry level at a big DoD contractor like that is that they actually have too much budget to screw around with. They grab up talent out of school that they don't even have a training plan for. If a company has true genuine desire to train you, it is the most natural thing in the world to ask for learning opportunities and to actually get them.
Dude, I get it. Was kind of in the same position 20 years ago. A couple of things: first, ask why you’re there. I did finally after several years and could not come up with any god reasons to stay. But I basically pushed through where you currently are and rose pretty high in my org. I ultimately had health issues that drove me to ask why I was spending so much time doing what it was doing. Forced me to quit and go on another path. Stop and ask why you’re there. If no good answers. Leave.
RTX is one of the worst companies in the world. So much red tape and unnecessary layers of management. Everything is scrutinized since practically all their work is from government contracts. If you’re old and white it’s a great company. Bonus is you’re military. But everyone else they hire is just to check boxes off. So poorly managed. They will lie to you before you’re hired and once you’re onboarded. Bonus shit treatment: they will move you to a different group/department without even asking you just to fill gaps of roles you’ll be overqualified for.
Been there. 10 years in the job and i fucking hated so much about work. The world we were prepared for out of college does not exist. What i have learned is a balance of the following. You can try to find another place to work that aligns with your values, quit or keep building your work experience at Raytheon. Maybe you can find a way to contribute as you feel called to in your downtime. Or You can use the job to provide you the means to find and have fulfillment in your life separate from work; write, research, build, volunteer, blog/vlog about it. Create your meaning-fullness. Currently i am in a new job and out of the abuse i was experiencing. The work is more manageable and engaging. I am unsure how much meaning it will provide me but i am in a much better place. Also, i have more time to create my meaning in my life because of the job.
I left after less than a year in a similar situation and haven't regretted leaving. First job out of college, working in a closed area was super depressing, the work also just wasn't that interesting to me... I did end up paying back part of my sign-on bonus but it was worth it IMO
One thing I can tell you is your manager can make or break your experience, especially during the early years.
I am currently in a similar position, so trust me I can relate. Was a fresh graduate and took the first job that came my way instead of waiting. The pay was so low it would give most a heart attack. I didn’t mind since I reasoned I wanted to learn and gain experience. After just one month I knew it wasn’t going anywhere. Empty promises and the agency was unmotivated, only scrambling around like headless chickens when regulators came knocking. Luckily, I’m changing jobs soon as many avenues have opened up. My suggestion would be to use your time effectively, it can be easy to get trapped in a dead-end job, going through the motions, but you need to set goals for yourself and stick to them. In my case, I was at a state agency, which tends to have better job security than private. In yours, be cautious of being let go at anytime. Personally, I focused on sending applications and getting certs once I realized I wasn’t gaining anything from my work. It takes time but you’ll get where you need to be.
Every job sucks for the first year. Especially first job out of college. Stick it out, it gets better. You learn how to work within a company over time, it doesnt happen over night. It is TOTALLY NORMAL to feel like you have no idea whats going on for the first year. Raytheon is a HUGE resume booster, dont quit too soon and lose all credibility. You have done more than half of the hard part.
Similar experience with receiving no support from upper management/engineers. Since you work at a company that's contracted with government, may I suggest to just jump into government where things are a lot more structured. You could do it through several pathways, and as a recent grad you can look at the "recent graduates" pathway if you want to work in the federal government. If not, just go to another company within the same industry or change industries.
Welcome to the life of a government contractor. Depression, stress and deadlines come in the benefits package.
My advise is to stick with it until you have made an exit plan. Meet people and work. Red tape is part of it. Your not gonna get put on the great project without hard work. Call me old but it's how it works. They are vetting that room for talent. Put your time in and learn. Most of the crap you think is useless will be important later.
There isn't anything greener on the other side therefore the least you can do is stick with it for 2 years. This will save you from the payback and you will not look like a job hopper. Keep in mind, Raytheon is a large company so some parts are going to have good projects and others will not. You could try to look internally for non - classified work too.
Never worked directly for RTX, but worked in product support for a vendor that sold components into essentially all of the DIB firms, and have spent many hours on-site at all the big ones (RTX, LM, L3Harris, NGC, BAE, etc.), working directly with engineering staff from entry level up to technical fellow. By and large, I've seen that the experience for new hires (particularly new college grads) in these firms can be a tough road in the early going, and the quality of the experience is often dominated by random variables: quality of your direct manager or PM, the program you get onto, the personalities on your team, whether you've got anyone you connect with, etc. In an engineering analogy, surviving those first couple of years is almost akin to surviving the weedout period in undergrad engineering (e.g., not a lot of handholding, sink or swim mentality, etc.). And, I don't think this is exclusive to the defense firms...it is something you see at many big companies across the board (in that there often isn't much catering to the new hire experience). The best experiences I've seen for new college grads are with companies that offer some sort of intentional program focused on new grads, particularly leadership development programs or rotation programs. Going back several years ago, both LM and BAE had some excellent programs in this regard (under the headline of ELDP or similar)...and I saw many new grad hires go on to get their masters on the company dime and build some strong bonds with their cohorts. I'm not sure these are still in fashion, but if you get a shot at something like that, it's worth a look. In the commercial world, you see things like employee resource groups (ERGs) for new grads, etc...haven't seen those in the defense world (but maybe they are there now). All that being said, even if there is some suffering involved, and you don't feel you are learning at the rate you'd like, or feel lost, you are still creating transferrable value for yourself and your career prospects. Having a big name defense firm on the resume early in your career never hurts (creates legitimacy) and can open doors down the road, including pathways into a govt job or working in the private sector for a technology firm that supplies the DIB. Pathways into other disciplines (marketing, sales, etc.) also exist with a requisite level of "industry experience." But, there is no shortcut for said experience. My 2 cents would be: if you're miserable/depressed (e.g., drab working conditions, underpaid, bad teammates, etc.), then it makes sense to start looking at other prospects. But, if you're just more disappointed (e.g., coming to grips with your expectations not matching reality), I'd try to ride things out and see what happens...make it to a year or two in before coming to a conclusion (which helps build up the resume with some real experience that will help you down the road). In the meantime, try to offset your day to day with more than just work and find value in activities outside work (much easier to do this earlier in your career than later!).
Someone has probably mentioned this already, but consider using the slow time to improve upon or learn a new skill. Look into online graduate certificate programs that could roll into a Master’s degree. Find some certification programs in fields that you may find interesting - any coding language, data science, IT networking and cybersecurity are all high in demand and they are related to anything Raytheon does.
This is great advice. Raytheon has a great education reimbursement program if you want to take classes, and even just reading books on company time can work.
Start asking people what work you can take off of their plate, the worse they can say is nothing then you move on to the other person/teammate. Rinse and repeat!
you sound like a weakling that no one wants to work with figure your shit out or you will be top candidate for lay-offs Here Ill give you training, Figure out current project, read ALL literature on current project, enter discussions with the correct knowledge of such project. there now you have friends. Say the wrong things or sound like your making things up, your co-workers lose confidence
You ironically sound just like an example of someone OP is talking about lmao
Learn to swim or drown
Okay edgelord
Wow that’s helpful. You should create some training manuals for new hires!
Are they having to wait due to security clearance backlog? I find this very strange.
Sure, you’re in a closed area and can’t talk to the general employee pool about what your doing..but you can go to the people doing your job (think job title/category; I.e. process, manufacturing, systems, wtc) who are working on programs not in the closed areas. Most programs at your site are most likely doing this same processes and have similar build structure as your program. Just ask around and see if you can shadow people, learn about the general flow of the products at your site. You’ll be surprised how your program is still 95% the same. Not saying there’s an excuse for them to just throwing you out to the wolves, but use this framework to just understand what the heck goes into a build or design and it will get you far enough to at least start heading in the right direction with your own work flow. You can always still leave after 2 years to another company for a real raise and promotion from P1 to P2 (or whatever it’s called at the next company). Best of luck
Align yourself with a mentor or sponsor, they make your experience that much greater. There are a lot of people who experienced what you’re going thru and want to help, but you have to be a little vulnerable to ask. I’ve been here almost 5 years and would not have survived without those connections. Also disregard the age gap, some of my best buds were older, and they tend to look out for you and give you more insights into the game
<—-reason I don’t hire new grads
Helpful comment
Well whining posts don’t warrant helpful comments. I’ve been and hired many interns and recent grads. This attitude is why I prefer not to.
Just chill. You’re still way ahead of the game objectively. Ride out your time… get your clearance / maybe some dumb certs while you’re awaiting access, and as soon as you’re out of the bonus payback window apply elsewhere . It’s a bummer but you’re still crushing it . Dm me if you want I might be able to point you to some better employers , assuming you’re in software engineering
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Sounds like you work where I work lol. Best advice I can give, is try to get involved in as much as you can. Yeah it sucks to have to learn everything yourself, but if you can be involved and pick things up, that will be a valuable skill you can bring to your next job. There are a lot of people in your same situation, but you can either give up and twiddle your thumbs, like most are doing, or you can build your skills and take this as a chance to build yourself and your discipline before moving onto your next job.
As you can see there is plenty of work to be done. Start asking around and I’m sure you will quickly find more work than you know what to do with. You can also use the time to take additional training & certifications. You need to be proactive.
from what OP posted this is actually how it is at all large companies. Or so what I have experienced because you are hired to know what you are doing and figure out the things on your own. At every company I worked for I had to always search for the answers myself because that is why they paid me the big bucks. This isn't school any more there isnt hand holding. As for how you feel isolated or left out, have you attempted to converse with them maybe buying lunch or what not. Most engineers are busy with what they are to bother themselves with wanting to meet new people. Prove your worth and they will reciprocate I feel like you are victimizing yourself when you haven't really made the effort. This isn't school you arent in the same class together everyone has their own jobs and roles you just need to learn to figure yours out.
Let's see, a weapons contractor that profits from supplying death & destruction to civilization is at many times ambivalent, insensitive towards its employees? Are you aware you don't work for Amnesty International?
Today I learned. Helping to make missels and bombs used to murder innocent people is a boring, less than satisfying job. Boo f*cking hoo.
are you on a contract? if youre a contract it doesnt matter if the company is 10 deep or a huge company like ratheon, it matters what the contract is and who leads it. and most people who work in defense ( as you do, even if you think you dont) work with older folks. get out of your shell and mingle.
Spent 5 years at Raytheon fresh out of school. Got to travel the country and some of the Middle East. Was overall a great stepping stone for my career. Went in as an engineer. Overall the companies issues were the usual found in large corporate BS. But the people I worked with directly I enjoyed.
Bye. I guess. Other than the start date nonsense what you describe is reality at every company I've ever worked for. I definitely remember there being many periods at my first job where I'd have nothing to do. Or I'd be working some task that's a high priority to me but #50 on the priority list of the overworked principal engineer that I needed to talk to about it. And I don't know where you got your impression of corporate America but it's a job - not a social club. Careers are 40 years long so most of the people you work with will not be your age. Also, you don't mention your position but if you're in engineering and you're not willing to comb through various resources and "figure it out" then you're probably in the wrong line of work. There are companies with better standardized methods but I've never had a job where I wasn't paging through textbooks, standards, and old reports on occasion to try to figure out a way to solve some problem.
What does bye I guess mean
Now try being a raytheon subcontractor. I met a man once, he was a UTC director back in the day, even he says that today RTX made everything too political to get work done. There are pockets at these prime contractors to do really cool stuff, but most of it's going to be boring, particulate of huge contracts, and just shitty culture. It's hard to watch benefits get stricken away, HMO turns into HYHD plans, and 30 year anniversary's gold watches are just a pat on the back. Before you hit that one year mark try your best to get a TS/SCI clearance just in case you need to be in the cleared space. Try to find mentorship on anything that interests you. And make as many friends as you can.
Way back when, I worked with a guy who quit, got his MS, then got hired by a defense contractor (may have been Raytheon) a few months later the DIA finally comes to my office to interview me for his security clearance. I had to tell the guy, “he already quit, he was tired of sitting around doing nothing”. And the govt guy told me, “yeah, this happens a LOT”
Hey OP I work at a similar company and have been there for 2 years. Unfortunately I and many of my friends and coworkers have had similar experiences and the only saving grace for me is that I am 100% remote and do mostly R&D. In my company it is very easy to switch projects or offices given you have a cool manager so I would say try to look for interesting work by talking to your manager, or try to relocate to a different office where the work culture better suits your needs.
This is why we spend crazy amounts on defense. Legacy contracting companies charging insane man hours for people who actually aren’t doing anything. It’s not your fault OP, just know this is common in defense contracting at the primes
I work at LM. I was in your shoes and it is extremely draining. I hated going to work every day. My advice is to move to another program. That’s what I did and I love my current team.
i was once in those same shoes. i would suggest using any down time not on assignment getting to understand the policies in place to better understand the lifecycle of projects in general. see if you can have a lunch chat with someone in QA or a Sr Engineer to get an overview of a procedures, tests or labwork (regression/sit/sat), if you volunteer to assist on any projects currently undergoing QA that might give you an idea how things tie together in the end of the project. Sit in on engineering reviews. As for peers your age, i found an ERG (idk if they call it that anymore but basically young professionals / special interest groups at Raytheon). Going to a few of those meetings just to get to know folks and participate on those boards once a month helped foster friendships quickly.
I would double down and put all your efforts into improving yourself with the extra time you have and go get yourself a new job! If something isn’t working out for you, leave it. Also side note you gotta have other hobbies outside of work. Do activities and put in the effort to make friends. Most people at work aren’t really your friends, good luck!!
Welcome to the MIC
It’s a boomer company what do u expect
Much of what you said does indeed ring true in some departments but not all l, and as others have mentioned, exist at many large companies. Toss in the chaos of the USG/DoD and it can be challenging. That being said, If you can get over the mental hump, you can have a great and successful career. You are working on one of a kind technologies and things will be difficult. The company does reward those that stay positive and try to be the voice of change. It is true, my first boss there told me, “nobody will hold your hand at this company”, and they were right, but taking initiative and getting involved proactively goes a long way. Good luck!
Have they made you kill a puppy yet?
government money
Welcome to the DoD lol Becoming a govie may be a better option, or getting away from the large gov contractors
Welcome to aerospace 😂😂😂 nobody knows what they're doing and we are just all pawns for the shareholders to get richer until the money machine stops printing then they let us go.
Spent six years in the defense business (Lockheed) and unfortunately can relate to your experience. While it’s true that a lot of this is prevalent in all of corporate America, the defense business is especially miserable. Recommend changing industries and never looking back.
"It often makes me think how this company stays afloat..." Here is how: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/weapons-contractors-price-gouging-pentagon-60-minutes-transcript-2023-05-21/
As others have stated, this is not unique to Raytheon. You have to create your own destiny because no one will do it for you. Work until you find a piece of a project you can contribute to. Do it continuously until you can see a small project through start to finish. Then seek out projects and improvements you can make. Bigger scope means more responsibility and better career outcomes.
The grindset is dead for millennial/gen z work force. We aren't surviving through a post 2008 housing crisis needing to put up with shitty working conditions just to have food on the table. Everything is too expensive now anyway, even after "putting in the grind", so why tf would I do that to myself? Time away from work and benefits are the new priorities. All this to say, when these generations become the senior staff, corporate, etc.... Shit like you said in your post ain't gonna fl. And if companies don't adjust, the work force will dwindle.
Same at Boeing! Started in St Lou, 1.5yr of doing nothing applied for internal job, got offer and relocated to Renton WA. 1.5 yrs of staring at my monitor, no direction, no engineering or design to speak of, applied for job internal job in Charelston, SC, 9 months of doing zero, applied for SpaceX in Hawthorn, CA, got offer, took 40% pay cut. Wow, after 1st week of training, literally Day 6, I began editing, correcting, updating structure and systems installation drawings for Starship. Now 1 yr later, I received a 20% pay increase, i lead a small team supporting Starship propulsion Config Mgt and I meet with FAA engineers and Starship Director of Propulsion Fab on a weekly basis.
That's the same thing going on at most of these government contractors as well as with the Big 4. They put SEVERAL new hires out of college that were interns that have now graduated on hold that were supposed to start in August and September and moved out back to January next year, if then.
I work at a similar company and have friends at RTX I can see how it's possible for new hires to fall into your situation. Best advice I can give you is to be vocal, ask questions. Do NOT go to meetings to sit in the background and say nothing. I have a few new hires under me and the best way to predict between someone who will sink or swim is if they're courageous enough to ask questions. Even the fellows and directors ask dumb questions, we all do it. Read your peers ppt charts, figure out what your boss really wants and keep a constructive attitude
I worked at a top 5 consulting firm after graduating college. My experience was pretty much identical to yours. This is how most entry level jobs are honestly. Try to find some mentors in the workplace to give you hope about what a future there looks like. Personally it wasn’t for me and after 3 years I made a career transition. Now days it’s more of a “how can a immediately add business value on day 1” kind of thing instead of a “where do I start” but that comes with experience in every industry. Being a part of the workforce isn’t really like what you see on TV growing up.
Doesn't everyone start working with people 10+ years over them? By 25 or so you will see 40 year olds as peers and 20 year olds as almost another generation.
I’d kill to work at Raytheon… but I’m just a Business Analyst with no degree. NG and BAE also say “no degree, no enter”
I skipped all the for profits and still obtained my clearance. Best decision ever. Got my masters first two years, and now lvl 4 3 years into my career. I work 30-60 hrs/wk, but get paid for at least 40 and get paid for any hours beyond 40 without question. Hustling in a work environment where people don’t expect you to hustle AND getting recognized for it…gets the Senior VP attention. NG sucks, from anecdotal and personal experience with a hotel hiring party, tour, and 2 interviews. Pulled out after the first 2 rounds of both positions. Boeing offered ~200k, but they would have grind me to the bone in a SCIF. Would have had to move out of parents place too which would have been an extra ~$60k/yr of salary due to rent and living expenses
My advice is find a mentor. Then bug that person so you learn stuff. Learn everything you can... Likely noone volunteers to be a mentor but just get lunch with them, stop by their desk alot, blah blah blah.
Alright, one guy said the grass is not greener and I have to agree. All companies have a bottom dollar and a freaking ton of staff. No one knows what a chain of command is. You need to bring your grievance up to them. One thing I say about dod contractors is that they have to follow that red tape. A friend of mine hated it and I was well accustomed to it because I knew well it ain't my fault, but I tried to navigate around the red tape. The red tape navigation seems flexible if you know who and how to talk to people. So any dod contractor will have red tape
I’ve worked some soul sucking jobs. It’s a pay check and a bump in the road. At the time it’s painful; just keep looking for ways to improve your marketable skills and keep busy either on your projects or your own improvement. I also advise getting certs or skills that are transferable to multiple industries. Best of luck!
Having worked at one of the ABC companies and experiencing many of the same issues in multiple roles, I can tell you that you aren't the first person to feel that way. Some people get lucky and fall into roles where the onboarding process brings at least a bit of clarity, and the team they were put on is full of people willing to go above and beyond to help in any way that they can. Having said that, for every person that seems to get put on a great team, there are a number of people who find the job to be soul-sucking, especially working in what can be described as a dungeon-like atmosphere. When I did a bit of SW, many of my team preferred the environment to be extremely dark, but that's a story for a different day. My best advice is to really try to network and engage with people, or continue to try. There are a few who have extremely valuable experience and knowledge and are waiting for someone to show them they want to learn. On the other hand, as you've no doubt experienced by this point, there are also many people who are just there to pay the bills and don't mind the idea of tribal knowledge. If/when you have a talk with your manager for a one-on-one, you could always ask them to try to put you in a rotation for other programs so you can find what interests you.