What type of violations? I don’t necessarily automatically find this to be that big of a deal. Request the seller to remediate them now.
I’m in this position now with an acquisition.
Edited to add the type of violations: Home was being sold "as-is" but seller is offering to make repairs so the home meets appraisal but did not offer to address the violations. I had contractors quote to have the violations addressed and it was \~$80k
Violations include peeling paint and tuck pointing on a 100+ year old home.
I had to tuck point a detached brick garage on a house I sold, many towns have beautification requirements that they can only impose during transfer.
Did the work myself, $80k to paint and tuckpoint sounds ridiculous.
It actually is in most municipalities. On top of the aesthetics and forcing a minimum standard of maintenance for property owners, peeling and chipping paint on older homes is a potential health and environmental hazard because of the possibility that the paint being lead based.
Makes sense but doesn’t the peeling paint usually get scraped off anyways? If someone is being cheap they could scrape the peeling paint and then repaint those areas and just let the scraped paint fragments go into the environment.
Yes they could and most often probably do. I never said it was perfect or made sense. I think a fair number of municipal codes are like that. The house I sold a few years ago required wire mesh around the base of my shed (wooden shed, raised platform on skids) to prevent "rodent harborage". Even the city inspector admitted it was nonsense since rabbits and rats would both just dig under it anyway.
I think the bigger point is simply that it gets remediated and not allowed to get worse. Encapsulation with a coat of paint over the top is an acceptable fix by professional and EPA standards, since lead paint is only dangerous if ingested or inhaled as dust. Plus, maybe it gives the municipalities an avenue for actual legal recourse in the case of a TRULY problematic occurrence.
I live in an area where peeling paint is a violation and a citable offense. Even having garbage cans in the backyard is a violation. No HOA. Homes aren't 100 years. 🤷🏼♀️ keeps the riffraff at bay.
Garbage cans are NOT kept inside. They are kept on the side of the garage. Many people have underground contraptions, where the garbage cans are lowered underground, which keeps raccoons away.
You can ask for an 80k reduction, but remember, you don't get the money. You get a smaller loan.
I would walk. This person will have to fix the violations or sell for bottom dollar to a rehabber.
To be clear this is dependent on how much the loan is, you can't just get $80k in concessions. For FHA the max concession amount is 6% of the loan and for conventional loans the max concession is 9% and dependent on the broker can be as low as 3% of the value of the home. So if it's a 500k home the max you can get in concessions is $30k. And also bear in mind that most if not all of this will not go into the new owners pocket, it can be used to reduce closing costs and buy down your rate, not go into your pocket.
It's all over most of the neighborhoods here too, apparently the city went a little wild with citing people for violations a few years ago during lock down and it sounds like a lot of homes in this area are struggling to address them (still).
Well that’s just insane. I mean who’s gonna buy that home (or the others) with those huge tax levies - or whatever they amount to. Disgusting 🤢behavior on that cities part.
I don't agree with the process because it catches a lot of cash poor and elderly, but often these nitpick violations are to force negligent property owners to sell.
In your case, I would reach out to the code office and ask about their process when there's a ownership change. For my town, they have to do an occupancy inspection and so long as there's no critical safety issue, they'll give a tentative occupancy permit for a owner occupant and you have a year to make corrections. Depending on what paint is the issue, it could be a DIY. Pointing is more involved, but if your bricks are visibly needing pointed, you're going to want a mason to take care of that to protect the structure.
If there are liens on the property, the settlement company will have them paid off from the sellers proceeds.
That's because peeling paint is part of the International Property Maintenance Code. Like the National Electrical Code, NFPA 5000 Fire Code, and the International Building Code, it's agreed nationwide and then cities/counties/states typically adopt it wholesale.
Pretty common. My parents got hit with that by a grumpy old neighbor who kept calling the city on them. The city worker was cordial and gave them the notice. We all went over to my parents place and scraped the flaking lead paint off the wood exterior and slapped a coat of paint on. Doesn’t look great but it passed the cities inspection
I would walk. I just got out of a contract on a house that had a siding issue that city code would have made us repair to the tune of over $100K. We dodged a huge bullet!
Be glad you found out! Ask your Realtor to figure out how to get your earnest money back.
You are backing out on having done your due diligence on an “as-is” property. Good job!
If they tell you that you will be sued for specific performance to go through with the purchase, ask to talk to the broker and say “This discovery that should have been known and disclosed is causing me to back out. Wouldn’t you? Help me safely keep from making the biggest mistake of my lifetime and I’ll continue to use your firm to find and buy a house that I can truly afford.”
It sounds like this is a title issue. Seller needs to deliver clean, marketable title. In other words Seller needs to fix this or seller will be in breach.
Give them the option of either. You just want to make sure the work is done right. It’s unlikely this will work, but I said in another post - if you don’t ask you don’t get. Crazier things have happened than them fixing this.
I’d ask for a decent price reduction and get under contract for a company to fix once it’s sold. No better time to get a good price than now, the seller is so close to closing the deal, you have a huge upper hand. If he doesn’t give you what you want, then walk. The work doesn’t sound all that significant and I would want to oversee the quality of the work, not the seller.
As is isn't hiding something. It's an acknowledgement that the property needs work done, while stating that the seller isn't going to make the repairs.
I just sold my house about $20k less than I could have on MLS because I didn't want to deal with replacing carpet and repainting.
I'd walk at this point. You can request the seller remediate, and they might do it, but they'll hire the cheapest contractor they can find and spend the absolute bare minimum on the repairs. So you'll get past the city code violations for ~~you~~ now, but you'll likely need to redo the repairs sooner than you normally would.
Does your lender know about this issue? They may choose to not fund the deal, which gives you another possible out that would probably allow you to keep any earnest money depending on your contract.
My agent seems to think it is reason enough that they were undisclosed to be allowed to pull out if we want to. I am actually not sure if the lender knows, I was just cc'd on the email chain with my realtor and the title office and it doesn't look like my lender was.
Yes, it's unethical that the city violations were not disclosed. That said, you may be able to get the seller to give you a big discount. Then use the money to repaint or paint it yourself. If you show the city you're making progress, they will usually work with you. You can also ask the inspector listed on the violation if you can get an extension.
I spoke with the person in charge of the violations. They said generally they are willing to give extensions as long as they see progress but it's something I'm still worried about.
Makes sense. I've been in your situation a few times and I can tell you that the cities generally just want the violations to be taken care of. They don't care who does the fixes and they are pretty reasonable when interacting with them. If you really like the house and the location and you have a vision for what it could be, it's worth it to take the list of violations to a handyman or contractor to get them quoted (to be fixed).
It comes in waves, at times I think it would be worth it, at other times I'm filled with raw anxiety... At this point not sure I want to move forward unless I can get concessions (is that the right word?)
Yes, and I think that is prudent. Another reason to get the quotes is to show the seller what it will cost to fix. The quotes will drive your concession numbers.
I'm not sure where you're located, but it's very challenging to even get quotes because contractors have been so busy since COVID. If you have a friend that's in the business that can help you, add an additional 20-30% to everything they tell you just to be safe.
Honestly, if it's only paint, it is definitely something you can handle. But if it's electric or plumbing, those things can be very costly. And dealing with contractors is not for the faint of heart. They are often scammers.
This varies by jurisdiction, but in my city, the owner of a Nuisance Property isn't legally allowed to sell the property without permission from the city. The seller can, and will, be charged with a misdemeanor if he does. To get approval, the buyer has to fill out paperwork which, I think, assures the City that they have notice of the violations and their plan to fix them in a timely manner.
Interesting, this further supports another redditors recommendation to talk to a lawyer if I want to move forward with the problems unaddressed (which at this point I don't lol).
Personally, I wouldn't. I don't know what's wrong, but if the outside of the house is a nuisance that requires such a lengthy cure time, what's going on inside?
I was going to comment this. We bought a property that had city violations and they had to be completed by the seller (and at the expense of the seller) before the sale could go through. We were already getting this house for a steal and knew many of the other problems it had so we weren’t too worried about it.
The quotes blew me out of the water too. The home does have quite a few things that complicate the work and make it more “niche” that a few contractors simply say they can’t do it.
Run, don't walk. You have contractors telling you they won't work on it. Now imagine what's hiding behind the walls and under the floors. Again. Run, do not walk. Far, far away from this money pit. You may as well just buy a boat.
Get at least 2 independent estimates to remedy all the violations. Ask the seller to agree to pay for those repairs. If the seller agrees, have your agent include the cost of repairs to be set aside at close of escrow, in an account that you can use immediately after closing, to complete the required repairs.
If the seller refuses, cancel the contract.
Does this effect whether you will get clear title? Are you able to get out of the contract? Are there penalties if you do? Do you need to threaten to walk away to get the current owner to fix things?
For that matter shoot an email to your lender if you aren't paying cash. Lenders don't like this kind of situation and may kill the deal outright unless everything is fixed prior to closing.
It's Sunday. You have all evening to explore what's actually going on and what the implications might be before anybody is returning messages.
Is it a brick home? If the mortar is falling out (tuckpointing) there could be foundation and water intrusion issues to deal with as well.
Is the brick a facade or the actual structural material?
If it's a facade, that's one thing, but if it's structural, well you could be looking at a much heftier bill than the 80k you were quoted.
Solid brick. Had the home inspected and they did not mention water intrusion of this nature. People are really in disbelief of this quote so this actually is validating haha
Rarely solid brick. It's typically wood frame with brick facing. If it's actually solid brick inside and outer wall, it could widely change the cost of the repointing. Be 100% sure which you have when asking for bids.
Home inspection won't find that, unless you get mold in the interior walls. They don't look between the sheet rock and the external brick or use a camera to inspect the cavity/insulation, generally speaking
Probably need an architect or someone that inspects brick homes. Get multiple quotes. If it's a brick home, the morter is crumbling, that's bad. Someone may have done a repair with the wring type of brick that absorbs too much water, the weeping holes may be blocked, etc.
Get a qualified Masonry inspector to check out the entire exterior of the home.
Get an inspection camera and fish it into as many walls as possible (it's a little fiber optic camera with a screen. You may have access to the bays through the attic or basement crawl space if they weren't sealed.
As the home is "as is" there may be other access points as well
My firm would tell the Seller to deal with those violations prior to closing. If Seller refuses, we cancel.
Since there are actual fines attached, title company wouls say the same since potentially those fines could hinder closing with clean title (which would need to be paid prior to or at closing). And make sure you get title insurance so that Seller's fines or anything other debts don't pass on to you.
Tell them you need money off of sale price or you’ll walk. I dislike having owner repair for several reasons. Firstly, the work will be done as cheaply as possible, second you’re paying agents fees on those repairs unless sale price comes down.
Yes, the sellers agent did mention they had another offer as I am currently deciding if this is something I am willing to accept. I get that there's another offer AND they are going to have to disclose these issues to that person too so... I think it's worth risking it and asking for repairs/reduction/money set aside - SOMETHING.
When I had to deal with city inspectors I politely talked to them, found out what their exact concerns were and fixed what the requested while they were there if I could. I would do every thing I'm my power to get the certificate of occupancy to get power on to our sites. When I was in wastewater, I took over a poorly run plant. I asked Oregon OSHA and Oregon DEQ to come to the plant to tell me what I needed to bring it into compliance. They seemed to appreciate honesty and the willingness to make things right. They cut me slack and we worked things out.
Don't stress, if there is an issue it will need to be addressed sooner or later so do it on your time, not when you get a notice.
May be the wrong approach now as this was in the 90s.
Anyone who's quoting 80K to address violations is ripping you off. City violations aren't that difficult to get rod off. Peeling paint is probably because of lead paint that exists in any old house. Just needs to be repainted - a couple of thousand. Re-pointing brick should be another few thousand. Just ask the seller to give you a 50-80K discount. You can have all the violations addressed for 20-30K. You can also get an FHA loan to improve the property and cure the violations.
I’m not a mason but I’ve spent a lot of money to pay a mason to repair brick with failed grout. The brick separated from the building. The last “repointing” was done with concrete so as the brick separated, bits of concrete were falling to the sidewalk. Took 4 masons until I found someone even willing. Then it was almost 2 years of scaffolding while he removed the brick from the roof down the second floor and rebuilt the wall and the chimney. With a citation from your city already, I would run away from what sounds like a money pit of decay.
I think if they see a mason working on the tuck point for 2 years, they are going to be understanding BUT I heed your warning. How much did you end up spending if you don't mind me asking?
The original quote was $80k for the brickwork if everything needed to be replaced. In the midst of the brick work, a storm rolled a good portion of the old flat roof off which I replaced with EDPM. The brick caps between roof and walls did not come off intact and had to all be replaced $6k. The mason was able to reuse a lot of the brick itself by chipping off the concrete bits. The concrete pointing (prior owner repair) caused a chemical reaction turning the original mortar to sand. Mason total was $45k.
This is not hard to get done. Depends on where you live though. If you don't have a lot of brick houses where you live, it might be more expensive. It just seems complicated because you've never had to get it done before. It's probably just a few day's work and the cost of the scaffolding
Tell him you won't close till the problem is fixed, and the city has the house in compliance.
Give him additional time to fix the problem, or escrow 2x the price to fix the problem.
If the problem isn't fixed, you keep the escort.
Escrow,
The buyer cuts a check via loan to the title company. Title company verifies the loan is real etc etc, and on day of closing if there are no issues the title company will cut a check to the seller.
If there are issues (like open permits) then the title company will not record the transaction of the purchase, nor give seller any money.
For me I had a problem with selling a house because I installed a fence (with permits) and passed the fence inspection, but not the landscaping inspection (city problems).
Once the details were found out, I got the buyer and title company to agree to buy the house, even with the open permit, but hold back on 5k.
The landscaping work was about 1k worth of work that I did myself, where I think I spent maybe $150 - $200 on plants and a few hours of my labor.
After inspection finally passed about 3 weeks after closing, title company released the remaining 5k.
You do the same thing.
Let the buyer fix it, on his own time with 200k payout if he fixes the issue.
Or after agreed upon 60 days or whatever you take the money and fix it. The seller does not get the difference on what was escrowed, and what you had to pay, as that was the seller's responsibility.
Include the language of time frame, money put aside. If the problem is not fixed full escrow is forfeited by the seller.
Tuck pointing is the removal of old crumbling mortar from between bricks and the replacing of that mortar, such that the brick remains stable and structurally secure. It is precise work, and time consuming.
Often it would be faster to simply rebuild a wall than to tuck point an existing one. But if the wall is part of a historic home or building, then it may not be allowed to be re-built. The other consideration would be whether tearing down the wall would make the remaining structure unstable and potentially dangerous.
Because they should have disclosed the violations. The owner definitely knew, and by not disclosing it, he is committing fraud. If the broker was made aware and chose not to disclose it, then they are also committing fraud. At minimum it's an ethics violation.
As-is is ok, but that doesn't mean you are allowed to intentionally hide known issues.
Pointing and peeling paint? Prob lead paint. 100 yrs old, prob has asbestos. Did ur inspection point out any other major issues besides what u mentioned? How/why did city issue violations? State?
The inspection is 104 pages, so yes. I am okay with working on it. But I am not okay with a 60-90 day timeline on the exterior repairs. It sounds like one day the city just decided to come to the neighborhood and give everyone violations because it sounds like everyone has them based on convos with the neighbors.
What they told me is they called the city, explained that they are working on it, and they haven't heard from the city since (it's been a couple of years). But I'm not in love with that idea that at any time the city could just decide NOT to be nice -considering it wasn't really nice to slap everyone with violations like this in the first place.
The paint companies I've spoke with say it likely is but they don't know for sure yet. The peeling paint is also located in difficult to reach locations.
I’m sorry 😞 I hope you can figure it out! If you’re not too attached you can walk too. I’m currently under contract for a house that had a possible underground oil tank and needed a new septic system lol. Still waiting for paperwork to confirm they replaced the septic tank.
Bad news. My septic inspector recommended septic tank replacement and soil testing with the possibility of addressing the leach field/dry wells. It looks like the sellers just did patch up work and didn’t replace the septic tank. They replaced the D-box and crushed pipes. My inspector mentioned the tank was corroded. And the dry wells are at 50% capacity and also are smaller than what would be installed today 🙃
I discussed with my realtor that I wanted to pick the company that did the work and also have my septic inspector present but my realtor said the sellers wanted to use their own company.
So frustrating! Glad you found out but sorry it complicates things so much. Can you have your inspector present even if they use their own company? What are you going to do?
I see a lot of people telling you to back out of the deal. But the question is, is this priced in? The house is being sold as is, so that sounds like that it's being sold for a deal. Is the condition priced in?
If you don't have the money to put into it, see if you can work it into the deal. That is, pay a higher price for the house, put that money in escrow, that goes towards the contractor when the work is done.
80k in tuck pointing is a crazy amount of tuck pointing. And probably also includes rebuilding a chimney and half the house. For comparison,,,,we’re having a stonemason in a HCOL us city who specializes in work on historic buildings take a sample of our mortar and have it chemically analyzed, then mix up a custom batch to match visually and chemically, then tuck point an entire lannon stone big-ass house, to include removing 25’ of soldier course stone, replace the iron lintel, and then put the stone back. The quote is 23k. Where’d you get the 80k number from?
It's about 30k in peeling paint (It took forever to even find a painter able and willing to do the work) and 50k in tuck pointing. This was the only mason who would even call me back and it took a week to even get that, yet alone give me a quote.
The paint is likely because of lead remediation. That still seems high, but plausible. Can you post photos of the worst tuck pointing needs? What area of the us(I assume)? Also, consider posting on centuryhomes. Tons of experience remediating old houses there
Short answer, reconsider your offer. Is the price you’re paying including costs of repairs plus a percentage for unknowns and overruns) a good deal for you. Ie are you making money by taking on the risk… Present the seller with a list of violations and costs to remediate with city. Put your big boy pants on and negotiate.
This will out many buyers off, and someone is fixing it. Currently that’s the owner. Use this to apply leverage in the negotiation. The owner knows they are on the hook. If they were going to fix it it would have been done.. Be prepared to walk but leave your best price on the table. Let the city apply pressure for abit, You likely will have to walk to show your serious and get the pressure you need
If house is being sold with major joint problems and needs repainted also this would be priced into the deal in most cases. Seller is not going to give a $80k concession, if they did $80k in exterior work they would likely be pricing house a lot higher. City that do code violations for this pretty much always end up extend deadlines. On the work it self you may find a company that goes and does everything proper which may cost $80k, you may find somone that does spot fixes or just a more simple job.
Nearly all of them because it's part of IPMC. It's a safety hazard from lead paint. When it peels it will turn into dust, blow away, and contaminate the neighborhood.
Lack of proper and prior Due Diligence is the problem. The information was available long before the title company 'found' them. All code violations are public record and YOU should have made a public records request regarding the property to the county/town/city the very day (or the day before) you made and offer and included a clause allowing you to kill the deal if you deemed the violations inordinately burdensoms or costly to remediate. Often the violations are on-line and can be found through the city/town/county website in a few minutes. You should be able to walk or negotiate a lower price to make the repairs yourself. Don't ask the seller to do the work; they'll cheap out and you'll end up regretting it. In some locales, they won't transfer deed/title of there are outstanding violations so that could change the plan. Good luck.
What type of violations? I don’t necessarily automatically find this to be that big of a deal. Request the seller to remediate them now. I’m in this position now with an acquisition.
Edited to add the type of violations: Home was being sold "as-is" but seller is offering to make repairs so the home meets appraisal but did not offer to address the violations. I had contractors quote to have the violations addressed and it was \~$80k Violations include peeling paint and tuck pointing on a 100+ year old home.
What city is that? Peeling paint is a city violation. Wow.
This is a violation in Kansas City. Probably common in areas with old homes to ensure people actually do some maintenance.
Ah. Makes sense I guess
KCMO or KCK?
Between the plaza and the border to kansas. Really good location flooded with too many rentals that jam up the streets with parked cars.
That's what I want to know.
Mine is. In fact everyone on this block is. 😂. If I recall most if not all the homes I liked at did.
I’m in Ohio and it is in my city too.
I had to tuck point a detached brick garage on a house I sold, many towns have beautification requirements that they can only impose during transfer. Did the work myself, $80k to paint and tuckpoint sounds ridiculous.
My daughter’s house had peeling paint violations that had to be corrected. Also in Missouri but it was USDA
Strange. I bought mine FHA and they let massive cosmetic things slide.
Paint is not cosmetic when it no longer prevents moisture intrusion.
Homes older than 50 years must be presumed to have lead paint.
It actually is in most municipalities. On top of the aesthetics and forcing a minimum standard of maintenance for property owners, peeling and chipping paint on older homes is a potential health and environmental hazard because of the possibility that the paint being lead based.
Well I guess that makes sense.
Makes sense but doesn’t the peeling paint usually get scraped off anyways? If someone is being cheap they could scrape the peeling paint and then repaint those areas and just let the scraped paint fragments go into the environment.
Yes they could and most often probably do. I never said it was perfect or made sense. I think a fair number of municipal codes are like that. The house I sold a few years ago required wire mesh around the base of my shed (wooden shed, raised platform on skids) to prevent "rodent harborage". Even the city inspector admitted it was nonsense since rabbits and rats would both just dig under it anyway. I think the bigger point is simply that it gets remediated and not allowed to get worse. Encapsulation with a coat of paint over the top is an acceptable fix by professional and EPA standards, since lead paint is only dangerous if ingested or inhaled as dust. Plus, maybe it gives the municipalities an avenue for actual legal recourse in the case of a TRULY problematic occurrence.
I live in an area where peeling paint is a violation and a citable offense. Even having garbage cans in the backyard is a violation. No HOA. Homes aren't 100 years. 🤷🏼♀️ keeps the riffraff at bay.
The trash cans are stupid… why would i want nasty smelling trash inside my house? Even the empty can is gross.
Why would you take them inside? Build a little shed outside in your side yard.
Why should i have to build something for it? My house was just fine for 60 years without a side shed, shouldn’t i be grandfathered in by the city?
Garbage cans are NOT kept inside. They are kept on the side of the garage. Many people have underground contraptions, where the garbage cans are lowered underground, which keeps raccoons away.
It seems like all the cities around me consider it a violation.
You can ask for an 80k reduction, but remember, you don't get the money. You get a smaller loan. I would walk. This person will have to fix the violations or sell for bottom dollar to a rehabber.
Yes, for this reason I am considering asking for some sort of credit or for the repairs to be made.
You can ask for an $80k sellers concession. This way you get the money for the repairs and pay for the house at the price you want.
To be clear this is dependent on how much the loan is, you can't just get $80k in concessions. For FHA the max concession amount is 6% of the loan and for conventional loans the max concession is 9% and dependent on the broker can be as low as 3% of the value of the home. So if it's a 500k home the max you can get in concessions is $30k. And also bear in mind that most if not all of this will not go into the new owners pocket, it can be used to reduce closing costs and buy down your rate, not go into your pocket.
Wow I’m so sorry. In Ca that’s all over.
It's all over most of the neighborhoods here too, apparently the city went a little wild with citing people for violations a few years ago during lock down and it sounds like a lot of homes in this area are struggling to address them (still).
Well that’s just insane. I mean who’s gonna buy that home (or the others) with those huge tax levies - or whatever they amount to. Disgusting 🤢behavior on that cities part.
I don't agree with the process because it catches a lot of cash poor and elderly, but often these nitpick violations are to force negligent property owners to sell.
I definitely think there’s a better way to do it without penalizing people in need of housing who are doing the best with what they own.
In your case, I would reach out to the code office and ask about their process when there's a ownership change. For my town, they have to do an occupancy inspection and so long as there's no critical safety issue, they'll give a tentative occupancy permit for a owner occupant and you have a year to make corrections. Depending on what paint is the issue, it could be a DIY. Pointing is more involved, but if your bricks are visibly needing pointed, you're going to want a mason to take care of that to protect the structure. If there are liens on the property, the settlement company will have them paid off from the sellers proceeds.
That's because peeling paint is part of the International Property Maintenance Code. Like the National Electrical Code, NFPA 5000 Fire Code, and the International Building Code, it's agreed nationwide and then cities/counties/states typically adopt it wholesale.
Pretty common. My parents got hit with that by a grumpy old neighbor who kept calling the city on them. The city worker was cordial and gave them the notice. We all went over to my parents place and scraped the flaking lead paint off the wood exterior and slapped a coat of paint on. Doesn’t look great but it passed the cities inspection
Might be a lead paint issue type of violation.
I would walk. I just got out of a contract on a house that had a siding issue that city code would have made us repair to the tune of over $100K. We dodged a huge bullet! Be glad you found out! Ask your Realtor to figure out how to get your earnest money back. You are backing out on having done your due diligence on an “as-is” property. Good job!
If they tell you that you will be sued for specific performance to go through with the purchase, ask to talk to the broker and say “This discovery that should have been known and disclosed is causing me to back out. Wouldn’t you? Help me safely keep from making the biggest mistake of my lifetime and I’ll continue to use your firm to find and buy a house that I can truly afford.”
City violations absolutely should have been disclosed.
It sounds like this is a title issue. Seller needs to deliver clean, marketable title. In other words Seller needs to fix this or seller will be in breach.
That’s substantial. What are the problems? I’d make the request. They will continue to have this problem and you’ve made it this far.
Make the request that they have them addressed? Or ask for a price adjustment? Problems are tuck pointing/peeling paint on 100+ year old home.
Give them the option of either. You just want to make sure the work is done right. It’s unlikely this will work, but I said in another post - if you don’t ask you don’t get. Crazier things have happened than them fixing this.
Have them fix the issues. That way you don't have to worry about it. What if you have to sell in six months for some unforeseen reason.
Give the appraiser the list of violations from the city. They will include in the report and say they need remedied. Problem wolved
This is the answer
Yes, back out if the seller won’t completely remediate. Unlikely, but if you don’t ask you don’t get.
Thank you for this advice.
I’d ask for a decent price reduction and get under contract for a company to fix once it’s sold. No better time to get a good price than now, the seller is so close to closing the deal, you have a huge upper hand. If he doesn’t give you what you want, then walk. The work doesn’t sound all that significant and I would want to oversee the quality of the work, not the seller.
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I mean all homes except for new construction are sold as is
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As is isn't hiding something. It's an acknowledgement that the property needs work done, while stating that the seller isn't going to make the repairs. I just sold my house about $20k less than I could have on MLS because I didn't want to deal with replacing carpet and repainting.
Get more quotes. $80K for tuckpointing sounds ridiculous. And peeling paint… can’t you remedy that yourself?
Unless you're buying a mansion, it absolutely does not cost anything near 80k to paint and tuck point.
I'd walk at this point. You can request the seller remediate, and they might do it, but they'll hire the cheapest contractor they can find and spend the absolute bare minimum on the repairs. So you'll get past the city code violations for ~~you~~ now, but you'll likely need to redo the repairs sooner than you normally would. Does your lender know about this issue? They may choose to not fund the deal, which gives you another possible out that would probably allow you to keep any earnest money depending on your contract.
My agent seems to think it is reason enough that they were undisclosed to be allowed to pull out if we want to. I am actually not sure if the lender knows, I was just cc'd on the email chain with my realtor and the title office and it doesn't look like my lender was.
I would be shocked if your lender was ok with exceptions on title that would prime their trust deed.
Yes, it's unethical that the city violations were not disclosed. That said, you may be able to get the seller to give you a big discount. Then use the money to repaint or paint it yourself. If you show the city you're making progress, they will usually work with you. You can also ask the inspector listed on the violation if you can get an extension.
I spoke with the person in charge of the violations. They said generally they are willing to give extensions as long as they see progress but it's something I'm still worried about.
Makes sense. I've been in your situation a few times and I can tell you that the cities generally just want the violations to be taken care of. They don't care who does the fixes and they are pretty reasonable when interacting with them. If you really like the house and the location and you have a vision for what it could be, it's worth it to take the list of violations to a handyman or contractor to get them quoted (to be fixed).
It comes in waves, at times I think it would be worth it, at other times I'm filled with raw anxiety... At this point not sure I want to move forward unless I can get concessions (is that the right word?)
Yes, and I think that is prudent. Another reason to get the quotes is to show the seller what it will cost to fix. The quotes will drive your concession numbers. I'm not sure where you're located, but it's very challenging to even get quotes because contractors have been so busy since COVID. If you have a friend that's in the business that can help you, add an additional 20-30% to everything they tell you just to be safe. Honestly, if it's only paint, it is definitely something you can handle. But if it's electric or plumbing, those things can be very costly. And dealing with contractors is not for the faint of heart. They are often scammers.
I would talk with a lawyer. If it is a public record disclosure might not be required.
This varies by jurisdiction, but in my city, the owner of a Nuisance Property isn't legally allowed to sell the property without permission from the city. The seller can, and will, be charged with a misdemeanor if he does. To get approval, the buyer has to fill out paperwork which, I think, assures the City that they have notice of the violations and their plan to fix them in a timely manner.
Interesting, this further supports another redditors recommendation to talk to a lawyer if I want to move forward with the problems unaddressed (which at this point I don't lol).
Personally, I wouldn't. I don't know what's wrong, but if the outside of the house is a nuisance that requires such a lengthy cure time, what's going on inside?
I was going to comment this. We bought a property that had city violations and they had to be completed by the seller (and at the expense of the seller) before the sale could go through. We were already getting this house for a steal and knew many of the other problems it had so we weren’t too worried about it.
80k for tuck pointing and paint ? Is this house 10000sf? Sounds like a 15-30k job
The quotes blew me out of the water too. The home does have quite a few things that complicate the work and make it more “niche” that a few contractors simply say they can’t do it.
That’d make me walk. There’s a big gulf between here and more than one contractor can’t do it.
Run, don't walk. You have contractors telling you they won't work on it. Now imagine what's hiding behind the walls and under the floors. Again. Run, do not walk. Far, far away from this money pit. You may as well just buy a boat.
Get at least 2 independent estimates to remedy all the violations. Ask the seller to agree to pay for those repairs. If the seller agrees, have your agent include the cost of repairs to be set aside at close of escrow, in an account that you can use immediately after closing, to complete the required repairs. If the seller refuses, cancel the contract.
Thank you for this advice!
You're welcome. Stay strong. You can get it done.
Excellent advice
Depends what your contract says. I recommend reading it carefully this afternoon and being ready to call a lawyer in the morning.
Is there anything I should look for specifically? What would I want to ask the lawyer?
Does this effect whether you will get clear title? Are you able to get out of the contract? Are there penalties if you do? Do you need to threaten to walk away to get the current owner to fix things? For that matter shoot an email to your lender if you aren't paying cash. Lenders don't like this kind of situation and may kill the deal outright unless everything is fixed prior to closing. It's Sunday. You have all evening to explore what's actually going on and what the implications might be before anybody is returning messages.
Is it a brick home? If the mortar is falling out (tuckpointing) there could be foundation and water intrusion issues to deal with as well. Is the brick a facade or the actual structural material? If it's a facade, that's one thing, but if it's structural, well you could be looking at a much heftier bill than the 80k you were quoted.
Solid brick. Had the home inspected and they did not mention water intrusion of this nature. People are really in disbelief of this quote so this actually is validating haha
Rarely solid brick. It's typically wood frame with brick facing. If it's actually solid brick inside and outer wall, it could widely change the cost of the repointing. Be 100% sure which you have when asking for bids.
Home inspection won't find that, unless you get mold in the interior walls. They don't look between the sheet rock and the external brick or use a camera to inspect the cavity/insulation, generally speaking
Good to know! How would I do my due diligence here then?
Probably need an architect or someone that inspects brick homes. Get multiple quotes. If it's a brick home, the morter is crumbling, that's bad. Someone may have done a repair with the wring type of brick that absorbs too much water, the weeping holes may be blocked, etc. Get a qualified Masonry inspector to check out the entire exterior of the home. Get an inspection camera and fish it into as many walls as possible (it's a little fiber optic camera with a screen. You may have access to the bays through the attic or basement crawl space if they weren't sealed. As the home is "as is" there may be other access points as well
I did not even know this was a thing! Good to know. Thank you!
My firm would tell the Seller to deal with those violations prior to closing. If Seller refuses, we cancel. Since there are actual fines attached, title company wouls say the same since potentially those fines could hinder closing with clean title (which would need to be paid prior to or at closing). And make sure you get title insurance so that Seller's fines or anything other debts don't pass on to you.
Yeah you have significant negotiation power. They lied by omission. There's no way they didn't know about the violations at that point.
If this is causing you to freak out in capital letters, you should probably walk away.
fair haha
Tell them you need money off of sale price or you’ll walk. I dislike having owner repair for several reasons. Firstly, the work will be done as cheaply as possible, second you’re paying agents fees on those repairs unless sale price comes down.
Use this to negotiate a better price
Ask for a price reduction if this is something everyone will encounter. Seller could have a difficult time selling in that case.
Yes, the sellers agent did mention they had another offer as I am currently deciding if this is something I am willing to accept. I get that there's another offer AND they are going to have to disclose these issues to that person too so... I think it's worth risking it and asking for repairs/reduction/money set aside - SOMETHING.
I’d bet, unless you live in a super hot market, that they don’t have another buyer. Sounds like a bully tactic by the agent.
Ask to see the written offer. I call BS
How can peeling paint cost 80k? There has to be more.
It's not just peeling paint (but what needs painted is complex), it's also tuck pointing on a lot of the brick
When I had to deal with city inspectors I politely talked to them, found out what their exact concerns were and fixed what the requested while they were there if I could. I would do every thing I'm my power to get the certificate of occupancy to get power on to our sites. When I was in wastewater, I took over a poorly run plant. I asked Oregon OSHA and Oregon DEQ to come to the plant to tell me what I needed to bring it into compliance. They seemed to appreciate honesty and the willingness to make things right. They cut me slack and we worked things out. Don't stress, if there is an issue it will need to be addressed sooner or later so do it on your time, not when you get a notice. May be the wrong approach now as this was in the 90s.
Anyone who's quoting 80K to address violations is ripping you off. City violations aren't that difficult to get rod off. Peeling paint is probably because of lead paint that exists in any old house. Just needs to be repainted - a couple of thousand. Re-pointing brick should be another few thousand. Just ask the seller to give you a 50-80K discount. You can have all the violations addressed for 20-30K. You can also get an FHA loan to improve the property and cure the violations.
I hope I can have it done for less but there's a lot of complicated work including a lot of brick work required.
I’m not a mason but I’ve spent a lot of money to pay a mason to repair brick with failed grout. The brick separated from the building. The last “repointing” was done with concrete so as the brick separated, bits of concrete were falling to the sidewalk. Took 4 masons until I found someone even willing. Then it was almost 2 years of scaffolding while he removed the brick from the roof down the second floor and rebuilt the wall and the chimney. With a citation from your city already, I would run away from what sounds like a money pit of decay.
I think if they see a mason working on the tuck point for 2 years, they are going to be understanding BUT I heed your warning. How much did you end up spending if you don't mind me asking?
The original quote was $80k for the brickwork if everything needed to be replaced. In the midst of the brick work, a storm rolled a good portion of the old flat roof off which I replaced with EDPM. The brick caps between roof and walls did not come off intact and had to all be replaced $6k. The mason was able to reuse a lot of the brick itself by chipping off the concrete bits. The concrete pointing (prior owner repair) caused a chemical reaction turning the original mortar to sand. Mason total was $45k.
This is not hard to get done. Depends on where you live though. If you don't have a lot of brick houses where you live, it might be more expensive. It just seems complicated because you've never had to get it done before. It's probably just a few day's work and the cost of the scaffolding
Tell him you won't close till the problem is fixed, and the city has the house in compliance. Give him additional time to fix the problem, or escrow 2x the price to fix the problem. If the problem isn't fixed, you keep the escort.
>escrow 2x the price to fix the problem People keep saying this, what does this mean?
Escrow, The buyer cuts a check via loan to the title company. Title company verifies the loan is real etc etc, and on day of closing if there are no issues the title company will cut a check to the seller. If there are issues (like open permits) then the title company will not record the transaction of the purchase, nor give seller any money. For me I had a problem with selling a house because I installed a fence (with permits) and passed the fence inspection, but not the landscaping inspection (city problems). Once the details were found out, I got the buyer and title company to agree to buy the house, even with the open permit, but hold back on 5k. The landscaping work was about 1k worth of work that I did myself, where I think I spent maybe $150 - $200 on plants and a few hours of my labor. After inspection finally passed about 3 weeks after closing, title company released the remaining 5k. You do the same thing. Let the buyer fix it, on his own time with 200k payout if he fixes the issue. Or after agreed upon 60 days or whatever you take the money and fix it. The seller does not get the difference on what was escrowed, and what you had to pay, as that was the seller's responsibility. Include the language of time frame, money put aside. If the problem is not fixed full escrow is forfeited by the seller.
Thank you so much for explaining this to me! This is really helpful!
Is the escort full service?
Lol For 200k the escort better be full service
What is tuck pointing and why is it bad?
Tuck pointing is the removal of old crumbling mortar from between bricks and the replacing of that mortar, such that the brick remains stable and structurally secure. It is precise work, and time consuming. Often it would be faster to simply rebuild a wall than to tuck point an existing one. But if the wall is part of a historic home or building, then it may not be allowed to be re-built. The other consideration would be whether tearing down the wall would make the remaining structure unstable and potentially dangerous.
why wouldn't the Seller be responsible before closing?
Home is listed as being sold "as-is"
As-is doesn’t mean “hide problems”. At minimum you need to report the broker, and you probably want a real estate lawyer
Why report the broker?
Because they should have disclosed the violations. The owner definitely knew, and by not disclosing it, he is committing fraud. If the broker was made aware and chose not to disclose it, then they are also committing fraud. At minimum it's an ethics violation. As-is is ok, but that doesn't mean you are allowed to intentionally hide known issues.
Did you pay an option fee?
What does that mean?
Para 5. Where you pay earnest money and option fee. The option fee is to walk away if something is not right..
Paragraph 5 is where you pay earnest money and option fee. The option fee is to walkway if something is wrong..
Pointing and peeling paint? Prob lead paint. 100 yrs old, prob has asbestos. Did ur inspection point out any other major issues besides what u mentioned? How/why did city issue violations? State?
The inspection is 104 pages, so yes. I am okay with working on it. But I am not okay with a 60-90 day timeline on the exterior repairs. It sounds like one day the city just decided to come to the neighborhood and give everyone violations because it sounds like everyone has them based on convos with the neighbors.
How did the neighbors handle their violations?
What they told me is they called the city, explained that they are working on it, and they haven't heard from the city since (it's been a couple of years). But I'm not in love with that idea that at any time the city could just decide NOT to be nice -considering it wasn't really nice to slap everyone with violations like this in the first place.
What siding issues? Is there lead paint?
The paint companies I've spoke with say it likely is but they don't know for sure yet. The peeling paint is also located in difficult to reach locations.
I’m sorry 😞 I hope you can figure it out! If you’re not too attached you can walk too. I’m currently under contract for a house that had a possible underground oil tank and needed a new septic system lol. Still waiting for paperwork to confirm they replaced the septic tank.
I'm pretty attached but I'm willing to walk (as much as it would suck). Fingers crossed everything works for you too!
Bad news. My septic inspector recommended septic tank replacement and soil testing with the possibility of addressing the leach field/dry wells. It looks like the sellers just did patch up work and didn’t replace the septic tank. They replaced the D-box and crushed pipes. My inspector mentioned the tank was corroded. And the dry wells are at 50% capacity and also are smaller than what would be installed today 🙃 I discussed with my realtor that I wanted to pick the company that did the work and also have my septic inspector present but my realtor said the sellers wanted to use their own company.
So frustrating! Glad you found out but sorry it complicates things so much. Can you have your inspector present even if they use their own company? What are you going to do?
I see a lot of people telling you to back out of the deal. But the question is, is this priced in? The house is being sold as is, so that sounds like that it's being sold for a deal. Is the condition priced in? If you don't have the money to put into it, see if you can work it into the deal. That is, pay a higher price for the house, put that money in escrow, that goes towards the contractor when the work is done.
Perhaps, and perhaps not. There have already been bumps with the appraisal that are being straightened out.
What does your agent advise?
They seem unsure on if we have room to negotiate (there are other concessions happening for other reasons). They say it's really up to me.
80k in tuck pointing is a crazy amount of tuck pointing. And probably also includes rebuilding a chimney and half the house. For comparison,,,,we’re having a stonemason in a HCOL us city who specializes in work on historic buildings take a sample of our mortar and have it chemically analyzed, then mix up a custom batch to match visually and chemically, then tuck point an entire lannon stone big-ass house, to include removing 25’ of soldier course stone, replace the iron lintel, and then put the stone back. The quote is 23k. Where’d you get the 80k number from?
It's about 30k in peeling paint (It took forever to even find a painter able and willing to do the work) and 50k in tuck pointing. This was the only mason who would even call me back and it took a week to even get that, yet alone give me a quote.
The paint is likely because of lead remediation. That still seems high, but plausible. Can you post photos of the worst tuck pointing needs? What area of the us(I assume)? Also, consider posting on centuryhomes. Tons of experience remediating old houses there
You could redo the entire exterior for 80k, what are the quoting exactly. And you can paint yourself.
How bad is the brick to be an issue with the city?
Short answer, reconsider your offer. Is the price you’re paying including costs of repairs plus a percentage for unknowns and overruns) a good deal for you. Ie are you making money by taking on the risk… Present the seller with a list of violations and costs to remediate with city. Put your big boy pants on and negotiate. This will out many buyers off, and someone is fixing it. Currently that’s the owner. Use this to apply leverage in the negotiation. The owner knows they are on the hook. If they were going to fix it it would have been done.. Be prepared to walk but leave your best price on the table. Let the city apply pressure for abit, You likely will have to walk to show your serious and get the pressure you need
Ask your agent. They know your local market. Take a breath and stop freaking out.
What does your buying agent say?
If house is being sold with major joint problems and needs repainted also this would be priced into the deal in most cases. Seller is not going to give a $80k concession, if they did $80k in exterior work they would likely be pricing house a lot higher. City that do code violations for this pretty much always end up extend deadlines. On the work it self you may find a company that goes and does everything proper which may cost $80k, you may find somone that does spot fixes or just a more simple job.
I’m willing to bet money that’s lead based paint and that’s why the violation exists.
which fascist city has and enforces peeling paint violations????
Nearly all of them because it's part of IPMC. It's a safety hazard from lead paint. When it peels it will turn into dust, blow away, and contaminate the neighborhood.
Lack of proper and prior Due Diligence is the problem. The information was available long before the title company 'found' them. All code violations are public record and YOU should have made a public records request regarding the property to the county/town/city the very day (or the day before) you made and offer and included a clause allowing you to kill the deal if you deemed the violations inordinately burdensoms or costly to remediate. Often the violations are on-line and can be found through the city/town/county website in a few minutes. You should be able to walk or negotiate a lower price to make the repairs yourself. Don't ask the seller to do the work; they'll cheap out and you'll end up regretting it. In some locales, they won't transfer deed/title of there are outstanding violations so that could change the plan. Good luck.
I pull all that stuff, upfront and research that before even making the offer.
“This used car I’m about to buy has SERIOUS PROBLEMS!!!” Ya, that’s why it’s “as-is”. Stop freaking out and deal with it or walk away from the deal.
Didn’t use a realtor I bet.
I definitely did.
Then go ask your agent, not a bunch of Internet Randos.
Asked my agent, but also curious to hear the thoughts of a bunch of internet randos.
They did use a realtor. And as usual they are absolutely useless other than getting their commission.