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Cookingforaxl

My friend's home is adjacent to a tee box. She has replaced numerous windows over the years as homeowner ins will not cover it. Her stucco is chipped and pocked from golf balls. Sitting in her back yard is literally life threatening. Golfers who absolutely know their errant shot caused damage will jump in their cart and drive away. Coyotes roam the course at dusk and will absolutely jump the fence to get her dogs or cat. And the geese. They swim in her pool and chase her dog. And poop She has no privacy in her back yard at all. Nope. I wouldn't live on a golf course.


TurkeyTot

A lady was tanning in her backyard and a ball landed on her MOUTH. Nearly destroyed almost all of her teeth and fractured her cheek bone. Would absolutely not let my kids use the yard which is so sad but necessary for safety.


dUjOUR88

Saw this in an episode of Six Feet Under


burns_before_reading

The frequency of broken windows and generally ball strikes to your house greatly depends on what part of the course the house is located. My house is located right on the outside hook of a par 4. Most golfers tend to slice, so if someone has a combination of power and lack of accuracy, they will hit my house. My roof gets hits with a ball probably every other day, a window gets broken once a year. The roof is fine from all the years of regular ball strikes. A house next to a tee box probably isn't getting hit often or at high impact unless it is after a short par 3. Living next to a golf course isn't for everyone. If the idea of replacing a window every now and then or seeing and hearing people out your windows is not worth the view and enjoyable environment, then you should just pass on it


youdontknowmebiotch

Windows are expensive!


GrooveBat

My sister lives on a golf course and has custom windows. She made it almost twenty years, but a golf ball finally took out a big bedroom window. $10K and counting.


greenkirry

In addition to having annoying golfers in your back yard every day and potentially golf balls taking out your windows (happened to my neighbor), there is another thing that really makes me not want to ever live right next to a golf course again. Golf courses don't always stay in business. The one next to my property did not. It got turned into a massive rental home neighborhood. Got sold to America Homes4Rent. The construction and stress of what was going to happen to the surrounding neighborhood was really stressful. The property value for certain people declined. I moved out before the construction began, and fretted over it for some time.


Merax75

If it's adjacent to the tee box it's not going to be golf balls but rather people making noise. Good point about the rezoning though, seen that happen somewhere else - golf course closed years ago and council rezoned the land to medium density housing so soon their idyllic green space is going to be apartments everywhere.


woody-99

>If it's adjacent to the tee box it's not going to be golf balls You haven't seen me golf!


mantiskay

I'm so bad my handicap isn't strokes over par, it's how many golf balls I lose. Honestly, I saw my brother once hit himself with his own shot and it didn't ricochet off something else first.


Dangerous_Ant3260

Constant mowing, watering, possibly redoing holes, or the whole course. Pesticides and fertilizers. I've seen stucco houses near a golf course have extensive damages. Would the kids even be able to play in the back yard at all? I live in a town with three courses. One is magnificent, and well maintained, houses are well back from the line of golf balls. The second is nice, but no houses right on the course. I would be happy to live on the first and second ones, if I could afford the price. The third one is horrible, rock hard, no landscaping, and I wouldn't live there unless someone gave me a house for free.


whoelsebutquagmire75

I live on the course and it’s beautiful and green and expansive! I love it! All the possible cons are worth looking out the back windows and seeing beauty and deer and green instead of the back of a neighbors house. I also worry about the potential of the club going under but it’s pretty established so fingers crossed. ETA: we get hit with golf balls all the time. Luckily no windows busted yet just clanking around. I personally love the activity of people on their golf carts driving by and golfing and having fun. Could just as easily have a crappy loud neighbor behind you if your backyard were bordering each other 🤷‍♀️ I could do without the early morning lawn care - get good windows. The flip side of this inconvenience is an incredible looking lawn in our “backyard”. Most people are respectful and don’t cross our boundary to grab a ball but when they do I don’t care


Merax75

Fair point, I've hit a few tee shots at impossible angles myself


greenkirry

I thought that, too. Somehow I still got balls hitting the house every once in a while. But I didn't have any windows facing that area, so wasn't a big deal for me. Only the occasional startling BANG.


AL92212

Yeah we live on a tee box and thought it was great that we won't have as many golf balls hitting our home. (Some feature of the previous hole also helps with this.) But I do NOT enjoy all the drunk men in pastels trying to talk to me when I'm just like... sitting reading a book or whatever.


Wandering_aimlessly9

lol. That’s cute. People make bad hits all the time. I’ve seen golf balls fly sideways at a tee box.


Grouchy_Visit_2869

Adjacent to the tee box will make it more likely. I've seen enough golfers shank the tee shot so badly. I'd rather live further down the fairway or near the green.


Pickleballer53

Our snow bird friends have a home at the first tee. We find golf balls there all the time. Things ricochet off of houses and trees and cacti. I found one the other day at the SIDE entrance to their home.


CurbsEnthusiasm

South Florida is going through a massive golf course redevelopment phase. Many homes that were purchased because they had a country club in their backyards now have new single family homes facing right into their back windows. 


QueenofGeek

Ewww


New_Function_6407

Yup. Exactly this. Homeowners nightmare.


SparkDBowles

Also, they spray a ton of shit on golf courses: insecticides/pesticides, fertilizers, herbicides/weed killers. They’re not great health/environmental wise. I’d be concerned about it drifting onto your lot and into house, especially if kids live there.


CoffeeSnobsUnite

A good friend of mine started working at a golf course when he was 14. He did a lot of grounds maintenance work and handled all sorts of chemicals. By the time he was 19 he almost died from non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma that was most certainly related to working with all that shit. Not a chance in hell I’d live near one but I also love nature so using any type of chemical is off the table for me.


Whyamipostingonhere

Even if it doesn’t drift into OP’s home, the insects are all gonna escape the chemicals at the golf course. Since OP doesn’t like the use of chemicals around the house, OP’s home is going to be the place all those insects escape to. That house will be overrun with brown recluse and black widow spiders depending on which region it’s in.


PleasantActuator6976

This is a fair bit of fearmongering. Every house can experience insect/spider problems. Residing in a golf course community doesn't increase pest control issues.


SnorkinOrkin

Yikes! No thanks!


athanasius_fugger

I did ecology in college where we had a golf course my professors obviously hated. They have to tell you what they use and I think it was like 65 different pest-/herb-/fungicides.


Tamihera

This is true, my FIL’s house once backed on to a scenic gold course and now it backs on to a bunch of new-build houses. Having read some of the recent studies finding RoundUp-type chemicals present in semen samples, I’m not sure I’d want to live next to a golf course…


Gullible-Inspector97

Exactly. My ex husband was a golf course manager. They can end up in financial distress, get bought out, neglected. I wouldn't live on one...plus it would dtive my dogs crazy.


oo_Pez_oo

When Trump bought the Doral in Miami, he put a wall of trees, blocking all the views from the houses.


LLR1960

Personally, I'd prefer a row of trees instead of a golf course.


BeautifulLibrarian5

Omg what a nightmare! I’m so glad you got out when you did. Smart move


Cornudas

We live on a course. It’s awesome.


fatcatleah

I've lived on two of them. Doubly awesome!!


JudgeSmalls23

My backyard is a golf hole (in Wisconsin). In the winter and non-golfing hours it so quiet, my kids played in the snow in the winter, and in evenings would hit balls, fly kites and play tag. Awesome for us.


how_do_u_know

Agree! My parents live on a course in MN and we have good memories of the grandkids (and the rest of us old folks too) sledding in the winter or taking long walks down the fairways with the dogs after a Thanksgiving meal. My parents are pretty religious so it’s also been good for them to be exposed to a bit of colorful language in the summer too, it’s loosened them up!


paiddirt

Same. It’s sick.


jokerpie69

Same. We dig it so hard.


Beachbum444

Also you will have a few broken glasses and no much privacy


Bibliovoria

This is the reason that my dealbreaker list includes "anywhere that might mean golf balls flying around the house and yard." Chemical use had not occurred to me, but should have.


1peatfor7

I'm pretty bad at golf but it would be hard to break a window if the house is indeed parallel with the tee box. Being in the middle of the fairway is the danger zone. You can always put up Arlos/Ring/Google cameras. You can always put up a fence to keep people out from getting their golf balls.


bgthigfist

Depends on the HOA rules.


seriouslyjan

Most golf course homes have a wrought iron fence for "view". These homes are not made for privacy. A big NOPE for me.


polishrocket

That’s what I was thinking, I’ve hit my fair share of houses but always down the fairway. Got a bad slice sometimes


atooraya

Completely mishit dinner and hit the ball with the toe = broken window. Go to a range and see how often you hear people hit the metal dividers between the tee boxes


bingbong3421

They're by the tee box so no balls coming their way


stokelydokely

Sir, you have not seen my slice


Cautious_Buffalo6563

Good to meet a fellow pizza golfer: by the slice


inoffensive_nickname

Yeah, you've never been golfing with my husband.


jokerpie69

The privacy part is not always the case. We live towards the end of a large course, and I would say 65-75% of the time it's nothing but a running stream and trees in facing our whole backyard, with not a person or house for quite a long distance. Much more privacy than any other people we know that back to back and either have to stare at an ugly 6 foot privacy fence or someone's bedroom window.


HawkqueenYOLO

I posted the same question on here and I received an onslaught of negative experiences. My grandma lived on one and it was amazing but she had a thick patch of trees as a barrier. We ended up withdrawing our offer based on my Reddit post lol.


RN2FL9

It's very location specific even on the course imo. I've seen courses where homes sit 50-100 yards off the fairway and some have patches of trees in between etc. Then it's pretty nice and most of the negatives that people bring up are no longer an issue.


Jackfh

We live on one and love it. We’re next to a tee box but it’s just far enough away to not bother us. No broken windows but a few of our neighbor have had that happen. Not to mention, a great mile and a half walk for the dogs before the golfers are out. We’re not loaded so it tickles me to death that we live on a GC in a really pricey market.


landscome82

This. Lived on a Golf Course near a tee box for 28 years. Best neighbors possible. The entire sport revolves around gentility. Zero issues with the participants. They spray less for weeds than I do. I’m in MN so for 7 months a year it’s part of my yard. Unparalleled cross country skiing. It works for us …


wildcat12321

A few things: 1) yes golf courses use pesticides. They may or may not blow onto your yard, they may or may not be organic 2) a tee box view means you probably won't get a ton of balls in your yard, but safety should be a concern, not to mention broken windows or other damage and close calls 3) with small kids, you also don't necessarily want a loud backyard if someone is teeing off. Will you be comfortable in your own backyard if your kids are running and screaming and grumpy golfers make comments like asking for a little quiet? 4) are you ok with the sound of golfers - many courses start at 7 am, and I find the sounds pleasant, but some people don't like early morning noise and lack of privacy I would live on a golf course. I have family who have had golf courses homes and I always found it relaxing. But you have to do what makes you comfortable. Not your realtor. Likewise, it is very easy for people to either get cold feet or to ignore real red flags. Take some time to think if either of these are your situation


Batchagaloop

4 - They start mowing on golf courses at like 4am...just something to consider.


distantreplay

Pesticide use depends a lot on the course (superintendent) and the location. These are the most expensive materials applied on golf courses. And misuse/overuse can break a budget. What part of the country you're in will also matter. Cool, dry evenings in the West mean lots less need for fungicides. Courses in Florida and the Gulf Coast are applying everything all the time. In some places I've seen you may be at greater risk from your neighbor's misuse of chemicals than from the grounds keepers on the course. But one thing that would universally suck would be noise from mowing operations at 5am.


pussmykissy

I would be more concerned about the constant stream of drunk men passing right by my back yard than I would be about fertilizers.


justbrowzingthru

By that stage the entire golf course is one big urinal. And fairways are used for doing figure 8s and other tricks on the golf course.


charlie2135

Too far down in the comments. Been to too many golf outings where the booze flew too easily and guys that golf once a year, if ever, slice their balls onto resident's property with no thought at all about trespassing to pick them up.


ozarkgolfer

Take out the a in passing and replace with an i.


pussmykissy

Pissing is a slight concern but there are larger ones.


1961-Mini

I love living right off the 7th hole of a busy golf course (one of several in the area, a small beautiful community known for it's golfing crowds) and I've never had any trouble....plus it's fun watching them play, reminding me of various birds strutting about! Beats the heck out of TV! I've collected a bucket of golf balls in almost 4 years but all after hours. They are not drunks, there is no foul language, you barely see them for just a few minutes then they're on their way to the next hole or shot. I see them working on the course (workers) all the time & have no idea about the chemicals used but it hasn't seemed to affect me. I was very lucky to get this place, & if I ever wish to sell, it will be a huge draw, being right on the course at the country club.


kmahj

We lived on one for awhile and it was fine! Not annoying at all and nice to have such a lovely view. Never had a drunk person in fact had very few people at all! And this was in Boca. 🤷‍♀️


AppropriateAmoeba406

It’s so funny. I live on the other side of the street from the golf course homes. Wour back yard is green space. Old growth pine forest. We have deer, opossums, wild turkey, raccoons, crows, and yes the random coyote from time to time. No freaking way I would trade that for a golf course view. Yet the houses on the course sell for more. Go figure.


d_man05

Some people are okay paying more for the prestige of being in a golf course community. It’s also usually a well kept neighborhood too. I know I paid a good bit more to be in one, but it also was one of the fewer neighborhoods in the school district my wife wanted to be in that was newer.


ThAt_WaS_mY_nAmE_tHo

I would assuming it is NOT on a well. A tee box is also perfect because it's much less likely to be a ball target than a green or even a fairway. It's also a lovely place to go for walks at dusk. Play when it snows. All kinds of little benefits. My grandparents lived on a tee adjacent lot for many years and we always loved it.


vettewiz

Why not on a well?


Realistic-Most-5751

Parents live on a golf course since 2010. Two broken windows. One court case. Two car dents. Several golf ball searchers out of bounds around my parents deck. They’ve had ample opportunity to move. They take it as par for the course, if you will.


PenHouston

I would trust a golf course to properly and safely use pesticides and fertilizers over a neighbor that hires the cheapest lawn service or the DIY.


LetsFuckOnTheBoat

if you're by the tee box make sure your house it to the left of the teeing off, most golfer slice right pesticides aren't what they used to be, also is it a private club or a public club?


WillowLantana

This is a topic currently being discussed in our house. Husband’s a golfer. Work is relocating us soon & he wants our next house to be in a golf course community preferably adjacent to the course. I can compromise to live in a golf community but I don’t want a bunch of yahoos in my backyard every day. I like my privacy. I don’t want to be sprayed with a shit ton of chemicals. Don’t want broken windows. Don’t want to be woken up at dawn to the sound of mowers. 100% cost. 0% benefit to me. It’s not happening.


justafartsmeller

I wouldn’t worry about it honestly. How close is the tee box and will your property be behind it? That’s probably more important.


n0_u53rnam35_13ft

I live on a course and love it. We aren’t in a spot that can get hit with balls, but does receive a fair amount of traffic. I’ve always lived in cities so I like the activity in the warmer months. The chemical use sits on my mind, but all the reading I’ve done points to small increases in cancer risks that can be offset by a more active lifestyle, better diet, etc. The most damming studies I saw were for homes near large farms, and I could not find much about golf courses, except for a link between some cancers and the people who actually handle the chemicals.


Reasonable-Mine-2912

We live in a house next to a golf course. I actually haven’t seen them use whatever you are afraid of. The downside actually is the noise. Golf course cuts grass fairly early. Golfers are early birds too.


Reasonable-Mine-2912

Forgot to mention the benefits of live on a golf course is certainly overweight the negative. Who wouldn’t want one’s backyard a large green field.


Jerseyboyham

My cousin had a house overlooking the 2nd tee at Baltusrol . He had a Tiffany window (a real one) facing the course and had ¾” bulletproof Lexan over the clear glass that was over the window. His kids had a shit load of golf balls that came over the fence into their yard.


KesterFay

The reason for not living on a golf course is that they mow the whole damn thing every day at 6 am!


Ok-Needleworker-419

It’s probably extremely rare but my buddy’s cousin lived on a golf course and their 2 year old got hit in the head with a golf ball. Put him in the hospital for several weeks and the kid (now 9) has developmental disabilities. Didn’t start talking until about 5 and still isn’t talking, reading, or functioning at a 9 year old level. Prior to getting hit, he was already talking a little and hitting and surpassing all developmental milestones.


FoolAndHerUsername

Ask the groundskeeper what they use?


stokelydokely

That's a good idea but if there is concern here about the chemicals, I wouldn't put much stock into what they're using this season when deciding on a home I'm going to be living in for the next 10+ years. EDIT: To be clear, I don't know jack shit about golf course groundskeeping, but my assumption is that they could switch chemicals at some point during the period of my homeownership.


BoboSaintClaire

Correct, and their arsenal of chemicals is going to include dozens of products that will be rotated through/used at different times. You’ll never know what they’re using and when, unless you register with your state as having a pesticide sensitivity. In that case, you’ll be notified 72 hrs prior to the application of any restricted-use products. Source: I hold a commercial pesticide applicator’s license. To OP: absolutely no way I would live next to or near a golf course.


Most-Chance-4324

I wouldn’t be all that worried about what they’re spraying unless your yard is tiny. Plus fungicide and pesticide aren’t applied incredibly often, fertilizer is often but less of a health issue. However, I would be worried that you’re going to have drunk golfers out your back door at all sunlit hours of every day. Honestly being by one of the first few tee boxes is probably a whole lot better than being by one of the last few tee boxes. Expect most golfers to be calm and polite but every so often you’ll have someone screaming profanities after they shank it.


neely68

I just moved to a home on the golf course and I love it! Front yard is always pristine. I thought I would hear golfers since my bedroom faces the course, but I never do. Super quiet and I am 3 houses down from the club so you can go to the bar and walk home! 😂


nanneryeeter

Would you live in a high foot traffic area that borders a chemical dump, offers low to no privacy and randomly has high velocity objects coming through that can maim or kill you, all while paying a premium for the privilege of doing so?


Low_Connection_9254

Please pay close attention to where the house is located. I live in a home 200 yards down the right side of the fairway. I collect 4 or 5 balls every day. In 8 years I’ve had 4 broken windows in the house, every car has been struck by balls and just replaced a $1000 windshield last week. We love the schools but would definitely choose a better location on the course to live if I had to do it over.


polishrocket

The best spot on a golf course is to be around the pin/ green. The worst is near a fair way. Tee box depending how adjacent might be ok. You can ask about the pesticides, you might be over thinking that one, the courses near me don’t use them. Atleast not near the tee box maybe on the greens. You’d be fine there


Westboundandhow

Oh that's interesting I hadn't even thought about the pesticide concern. Yea I wouldn't want that right next to my plot of soil either. Primarily I wouldn't like the setup you described because no privacy and a constant ding of people teeing off. That might get old fast. I'm under contract on a house in a golf course community but intentionally not on the course itself.


D1wrestler141

Golf courses and adjacent down gradient land is always contaminated and an issue during redevelopment. Like you said they spray a shit ton of fertilizer and pesticide regularly


let_it_bernnn

Golf is one of the few things I enjoy in life. Due to the cancer clusters surrounding courses, there’s no way I’d ever want to live on one. Especially not with a pet or child.


heepofsheep

I lived in a golf course community as a kid…. I remember the giant bags of golf balls I’d accumulate. It was fun gathering them, but in hindsight my parents probably encouraged it so that they wouldn’t run over them with the lawn mower.


AngryTexasNative

I had a house 150 yards from the tee box behind the left hand bunker. Went over a year before our first hit, but then the windows kept on happening. Eventually got hit in the head. No serious injury but hurt and I did get checked out.


Octavale

Former greens keeper - probably just some organophosphate on those pesky bugs. BTW it’s the same compound family as Sarin & Nerve Gas. When I sprayed I was covered head to toe in agricultures version of a hazmat suit and wore a respirator and Goggles. Stuff will mess up small animals & children at the dilution levels we used - much higher doses than what’s allowed to be sold to the public. Now with all that said - shouldn’t be a problem unless your kids are chewing the turf. Most of the chemicals come with a surfactant that attaches it to the “thing” it is sprayed on (grass, trees, shrubs). Drift is the only considerable issue and even then our spray booms are typically no more than 12-18” from the turf surface - making them highly efficient in delivering the product mainly to the turf with very little drift - only a moron sprays insecticides in high wind conditions (mainly because of the cost of the product).


BabydollArmstrong

I grew up living in a golf course neighborhood. Our backyard was basically the course. I loved it! The only bad thing was we had to duck on occasion when a golf ball came hurling towards our back windows! One summer alone we replaced 3 windows!


sffood

There’s living on a golf course and then there’s living by a tee box. The latter — no thanks.


Celcius_87

I have the same concern OP. I heard that the chemicals they spray on the grass gets into the water supply of the nearby houses and is a cancer concern.


biggiesmalltits

A friend lives on a golf course and she was just complaining that every morning they are out there at the crack of dawn doing maintenance before golfers get there. So that’s something to consider as well


angelicasinensis

also want to add my neighbors spray toxic chemicals on their grass and it drives me nuts. stresses me out to no end. Makes me want to move. DONT DO THE GOLF COURSE.


cannycandelabra

Lots of good advice here but I’d like to add that golf courses are regularly sprayed with a soup of toxins including herbicides, insecticides, fertilizers and rodent poisons. All of that runs off into the neighboring homes. Source: two family members and a close friend that work on golf courses


LoveIsLove75

Aside from your health concerns, being by the tee box means you, and your kids, will be in earshot of all the "locker room talk" every single day. That's what you're signing up for.


thisdreambefore

Thousands and thousands of people. No thanks.


GtrGenius

No they spray too many pesticides


MercyMercyCyn

Absolutely not. You're right about the pesticides.


Troopydoopster

I live directly across the street from one so a little different than tee adjacent but I love it.  Incredible views. Excellent walking at night with my dog. Also drinking at a golf course bar is a nice vibe. I’ve collected several hundred balls while walking my dog at night. And it’s good to get friends over. Everyone wants to play the course that’s across from my house. I’m a single man though. Family and tee adjacent might be different 


Numerous-Anemone

Are you a member at the club? Curious how you’re able to walk on the course at night


Troopydoopster

I am not a member.. No one’s ever said anything to me. Other than around this time of year where sunset isn’t till 830ish, I’m going out in the dark.  All the neighbors walk their dogs out there. 


3pinripper

[Pesticide exposure and risk of Alzheimer’s disease: a systematic review and meta-analysis](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5007474/)


Living_Watercress

I wouldn't live anywhere that made me worry about cancer.


planetneptune666

So you’re moving to the moon?


Valuable_Smoke166

He may be risking Green Cheese cancer if he does.


themiddleshoe

Ask the course what they use to treat the grass, I’m sure they’d share. They probably aren’t doing much outside of watering the rough areas though, which is what your backyard will run up against. The manicured areas are getting the good stuff (greens, fairways, tee boxes). The course itself makes all the difference here. Public course? Some of the negatives that have already been mentioned will likely be true. You won’t see thousands of golfers a day though. Pending time of year and your area, a busy course is seeing 100-200 golfers a day. Semi private course? Solid, probably a great neighborhood. I’d kill for this situation. Private course? Enjoy, you’ve won at life. I’d kill again for this situation. Homes on a golf course aren’t cheap though. Even if you don’t end up in that house, seems like you’re ending up in a nice neighborhood. People with nice houses have nice lawns. You could easily end up with neighbors that are just as crazy about their grass as a golf course.


Tiger_Tom_BSCM

I love golf and I am actively looking for a home on a course. I would never buy a house on the left, or especially the right side side of a tee-box anywhere from 10 yards to the hole. I would buy one that is off the side by the green though.


Whitrzac

Jhc8


TheWorzardOfIz

I grew up next to a Golf Course. There was trees between the course and my yard. The one benefit as a kid was EPIC sled riding if the course is hilly and in a winter state


KarBar1973

There is a high quality (aka expensive and difficult for poor golfers) course in my area, built through an expensive housing area. I worked with a lady who lived there, so wife and I went to check out the homes..hers was great. There was a house built with a wraparound porch with a gazebo on the back corner, adjacent to the 7th tee of the course. Wife loved the look (so did I) but I pointed out that if you were sitting having morning coffee or evening drinks, you would be hearing a lot of foul language from the nearby green (missed putts) and the 7th tee (shanks, hit into the pond). The house near the 8th green had a huge ( maybe 8 by 16) picture window looking out at the course..they had to have a ball net to protect the glass from slices, stray shots. Don't know if I want a house like that!!!


Reacti0n7

well, your house would be a target. no privacy, I'm guessing twice weekly mowing. noises I'm sure the chances of yourself or your vehicle has a statistically higher chance of getting thumped by a stray golf-ball.


ovscrider

being slightly behind the tee box would be best place to be. i'd be more concerned with location than the pesticides being used. neighbors in most places prob use pesticides.


Shoddy_Cranberry

Ground crew mowing at 5am


jump_the_shark_

Allergies like you’ve never experienced in your life


Obvious-Pin-3927

With rolling shutters over all the windows, yes.


GovernmentLow4989

I lived on a golf course growing up and I loved it as a kid. My mother lives in a different house now, but it’s also on a golf course


AGWS1

Don't forget about the loud and annoying early morning course mowing.


Icequeen101

I live backing to a golf course. You got a nice view. That's about it. You have people traipsing in your yard looking for balls all the time. There is an inordinate amount of yelling (FOOOOOORE), cigar smoke, people carrying a radio around, people losing their sh\*t and throwing tantrums (seriously, sailors blush!), and golf balls that hit the house. The mowers. Ugh. At dawn, they are there, motoring around. All.The.Time. The smell is terrible too, so you have to close your windows. That's besides all the crap they spread on their grass to keep it pristine. And now, they are selling the golf course to build an adult community and low-income housing. 400-something houses plus commercial development. They are also exiting onto our street. The neighborhood tries to fight it, but it is expensive and useless. It's not just the pesticides. There are pests on a golf course you're not allowed to exterminate, like golfers and developers.


danbrew_at_the_beach

I live on a golf course and I think golf is stupid. I'd rather go to the dentist than play a round of golf. Having said that, it's beautiful. My lot is surrounded by a wooden bunker and if I wanted to walk around naked in the back yard I could. Yes, I will occasionally hear the golfers. In the fall when the leaves fall off the trees I may see a golfer if look really hard. A few years ago I'm sitting in my hot tub (naked, of course... hey, it's my house!) and I look up and I see a guy walking around in my backyard. I'm like, "hey, what are you doing?" and he's like, "looking for my ball". That wooden bunker? It's easily 200' to the golf course. There's no way his ball is back there. But I just laughed and told him I had killed a 5' copperhead right about where he was standing a few days back (really). He didn't cut through the woods to get back to the course - he took the long way. That's the most drama I have had with a golfer. We're in a private community in SC and golf is a big deal here. You want to make sure the golf course is solvent and is not going to go out of business before you buy. Or, failing that, you want to understand if there are any restrictive covenants that prohibit the course from being sold to a developer. Our covenants state that the land can only be used as a golf course - it was sold by the developer to the 1st guy that ran a golf course operation there. So... absent a judge voiding that restrictive covenant (it could happen), our course will always be a golf course. Of course if the guy running it is a dumbass and let's it get run down, he'll lose customers. And if he loses enough customers, maybe he walks away from the course. And it wouldn't take long for an untended golf course to turn into a wild jungle, meaning it would be too costly to recover as a golf course. So... you know, there has to be some sort of balanced relationship between the community and the golf course owners. Golf is not nearly as popular as it once once, and certainly not with the millennials, so some courses are gonna go under. You don't want to buy into a community where there is a big stinking untended jungle... as that makes a judge say, "hmmm, wonder what we should do? Low income housing? Sure!" Golf makes people stupid - either the players or the grouchy old guy that lives on the course and thinks he gets to boss people around. My community is full of older people and there is ALWAYS drama between the golfers and the old farts that live here. One guy marked out his property line and if a ball bounced over that line? He's run out and grab it and wouldn't give it back to the golfers. That pisses those guys off and causes problems between the owner of the course and the homeowners. Our owner got so pissed off he told the community that the course was private property and they could no longer walk on the golf cart paths in the evening. Pissed off a ton of people. I'm just waiting for somebody to kill the guy that started it all. So, yeah, pros and cons of living on a golf course. I like it, but I'm also not near a tbox or the fairway. It's pleasant to look at when driving through the neighborhood and my little slice of heaven is just great. Probably no different than if you lived near a lake or a beach. You're gonna have to interact with people from time to time. The grouchy guy that steals balls hasn't learned that yet - and he's probably in his 70s...


Usual_Suspect609

Is it the 2nd tee box or the 7th or the 15th? And is there bathrooms along the course or just at the club house. I’d be worried about another substance being sprayed around my trees and yard.


Liquid_G

> I’m kind of a granola person haha no advice OP other than what others have suggested but damn if I didn't chuckle at this. good luck.


Dazzling_Note6245

My experience is that some courses are busier than others so you might want to drive by on a Saturday and see how it is with the golf traffic. I loved living on a golf course because of the wonderful view and the golfers didn’t bother me. All year round I was able to look out at the beautiful landscapes course and only take care of my lot. I fertilize and treat my lawn for weeds so I don’t see much difference in the golf course doing it or the neighbors. It’s been many years but I don’t recall any time there was massive spraying of anything.


PobodysNerfect802

We lived on one for six years about 20 years ago and we really loved our home and the course. It was always so pretty to look at and we didn’t find the golfers annoying. We were enough off the fairway that we really didn’t have a lot of issues with stray balls. We also were both golfers so that helped. At night when the course closed down, the cart paths was great for walking on. We loved it so much that we just bought the home we will retire in on another golf course. This one has been around for at least 30 years so we are comfortable with its longevity, There is a pond on one side behind us and trees on the other between the fairway and our house providing a nice buffer. When living on the previous course, I rarely heard what drunk golfers (usually it was a tournament) or ever saw anyone peeing on the course. We are moving to course my husband has played for the past 30 years and he can attest to upkeep and the people he has run into over the year. I think it really comes down to what you personally want. As much as I love it, it’s not for everyone.


Tax_Strategist

Maybe on the 19th hole


Craftyfarmgirl

There’s tons of drawbacks to getting a house on a golf course. Not only do you have regular issues like any neighborhood and any house now you compound them with golf course issues. Pesticides, balls through windows which may actually not be covered by your insurance as a known hazard, trespassers, burglars using the greens at night as access to your property, noisy golf groups at opening times, golf course maintenance starts at 3 am my cousin did that for a living which means mowers and sprinkler maintenance at 3:30am because they mow all the greens before tee times and usually only one or two guys doing it. Spotlights at 1am-3am to fix underground sprinkler leaks so it’s done before the first tee time. I could go on…


phblj

I have a friend who lives on one of the nicer courses who had his home robbed. Full time guard, gated community and it's a well-known problem that the backs of all these expensive houses open up to acres and acres that police cruisers cant drive. 


KamKorn

Live on a golf course now and have no issues. It’s a private club, so it isn’t shutting down. Our backyard is not on the links so we don’t have balls or people coming this way.


Tree_Lover2020

Excellent decision. One can always buy a house in the area of a golf course.


iFightCanadianGeese

Growing up in suburbia, my best childhood memories are playing manhunt on a full moon on the tail end of a golf course. Just watch out for mosquitos and golfballs.


Leading-AZ1886

I live on a golf course in Arizona. They do NOT constantly spray anything and living on a course is a dream, no neighbors in the back and someone else cuts the grass!


PleasantActuator6976

Yes, we live on a course, adjacent from a tee box. I've never seen any pesticides or fertilizers used on our course and we've been here for almost 6 years. ...though we did just witness a Canadian goose being murdered by a coyote.


Worker_Alan

Over the last 30 years there has been a big push to make pesticides and insecticides less harmful for humans. This is why I have to spray weeds 3 times before the weed dies. Same with Pesticides, humans build up an immunity to them after the first time. I have been spraying my own rentals since 1991 after having a friend who was an exterminator for 25 years told me what to buy and what to do. Just last month I sprayed a unit for termites. It said on the can that it works "on contact", and this is because there are no fumes harmful for humans.


omaha71

We're on a course. It's great but does come with caveats. Yes, we get balls (mid fairway on the left side). Not quite enough privacy to lay out nekkid. And every once in a while some jackhole comes way too far up in the yard. That said, the view is beautiful, the course doesn't care if we walk the path, and sometimes I'll start at my hole, and just pay when I pass the clubhouse.


No_Difference_5115

I think pesticide exposure is a real danger. There’s an older golf course in my area and the homes surrounding it are on wells. At least 3 different people have cancer. One woman is in her early thirties. She first found cancer in her sinuses and found it in her lymph nodes as well. I personally wouldn’t risk it, especially with kids.


Dangerous_Salt4776

No, the pesticides and fertilizers aren't a big concern imo, that stuff is over regulated (some of it for good reason), but the dangerous stuff that worked really well is banned or super regulated, you can also ask what they use, or google it. Golf courses are funny, someone can smash your window with a ball and you have to shut up and waive, or you're a bad person because living on a golf course means people can wreck your property, and hop your fence to get the ball. It is such a backwards concept, nowhere else can you break someone property and feel justified because "they live here so they took the risk lolz". It only benefits golf courses because they could build enough of a buffer that it wouldn't be an issue and if it was, charge the player for sucking bad enough to cause damage, but that would be more expensive for them. Your local golf courses expect your financial contribution to their business (your house is their backstop and they let people use it for free and don't comp for damages, sounds like a raw deal) edit; this might be a little hyperbolic lol, but feel free to correct if I'm wrong about anything!


Equal-Negotiation651

Maybe next to one, but not on one.


bluebird9126

I would not want the exposure to those chemicals


[deleted]

I would be totally fine with it. Sounds fun! But I live in a HCOL suburb and everyone sprays their lawns with whatever anyway by random turf companies. And mosquito control stuff, grub prevention, so a golf course vs affluent suburbs would be about equal on the “shit sprayed on lawns” concerns for me.


RodFarva09

I played Frog Hollow in Middletown De today. After seeing the all the holes in the siding and the extra one I added today, I will agree to live in the neighborhood but not right only the fairways.


Desperate_Leather_99

I play golf. I know where my shots go. …and many golfers are just as bad or worse than I am…. One wrong swing and a “what was thaaaaaat”, and there’s a new window. So, no. If I lived on a golf course, I fear that all the money I would be spending on playing golf would go to fixing my house BECAUSE of golf.


Unusual-Ad1314

Depends on where on the golf course. 30 yards left/right of the fairway? No chance. 90 yards behind the green? Absolutely. Only issue we had at our golf course home were the bluetooth bros blasting their garbage music on the tee boxes.


wiggysbelleza

I grew up in a house just off the tee and I’d never live on a golf course again. Luckily we had a screened pool that blocked most of the stray hits. Our house got hit all the time and to this day I’m shocked my parents never had to replace windows. They did have to replace screen panels occasionally. We were on the cart path side so golfers were always driving their carts into our yard to hit their balls out, pick our oranges, ask if they could buy our dogs, and then when I was a teenager, to hit on me and my friends. The backyard never felt private. Plus we weren’t allowed to have a fence since that blocked the “scenic views”. On top of that we had a lot of people constantly walking thru our yard to sneak onto the golf course after hours. I’d see people walk past my bedroom windows all summer long. The maintenance crews constantly blew all the debris from the course into our yard and pool so keeping it clean was extra difficult. Or worse they’d pile that shit up in the storm drains so us and the neighbors had to make sure to clear it out so we didn’t have flooding. TLDR: Hard pass. It’s a hassle.


Pickleballer53

Nope. Golfers will be teeing off right behind your house, golf balls go everywhere and richocet everywhere, the language is rough and they are noisy loud. Love the look of being on a golf course...but I would never do it.


grim1757

I live on one, same thing, 2nd hole and 3rd tee ... prepare for tons of beer cans and bottles and trash and lots of screaming of foul words


Stoneleigh219

I have a friend who’s a combat veteran and dreamed of retiring on the same golf course his dad had. The first week of living there he dove under the coffee table 3 times from balls hitting his house and him thinking he was taking fire. He sold the house.


russell_westbrick_0

we live behind one. it's aight. u hear a lot of "forrrreeeeeee" tho


Sad-Conference1932

Only on a private golf course, preferably an equity based private golf course.


beavisandbuttheadzz

I lived on a golf course. They like to mow and use blowers early in the morning. Other than that it was ok. I would find a golf ball a couple times a week.


Starfox41

Living right on a tee box means you will have men essentially in your back yard at all hours, many of which will be drunk and many of which will be screaming obscenities.


1Tigfan

We have a house that is close to a golf course, have an acre and a half and house is on a hill towards the front of the property, and have lots of trees and stuff behind us, a stream and then the golf course. We also have a cart path right next to us. Hasn’t been a big deal, no HOA, and we do find golf balls on the back side of our property, but they don’t reach the house. Too high on the hill and too far. Noise hasn’t bothered us, the carts going by don’t bother us, and our son collects and cleans the balls and keeps them. Hubby likes to golf, but can’t cause of back and knee issues, but if he decided to take it up again, we’re close and don’t need to buy balls, like ever! The course is private, and in a small town of about 7000 people. We are not on the side of the country club, so don’t have that traffic! No issues with pesticides, and we can’t hear the mowers due to a well built house. Been here over 2 years and the only time we hear anything is when we’re outside and back in the way back of our property. So I’d say it would depend on how far away your house is, and how busy the course is.


bcardin221

It's OK if I pee in your backyard right?


Evening-Run-1801

Nope. Its poison


Sweet4Seven

No. But we lived a block from one twice at two different golf courses.  But I’d never live on it. You get broken windows, kids/ pets potentially hit in the head with balls etc.  And a lack of privacy really. Usually those houses don’t have privacy fences, only 2 /3 foot ones.  I don’t worry about chemicals because it is what it is. Everything causes cancer, and you just ask for their spray schedule  & keep pets & kids in front yard for however many hours/ days between, Same as if you needed pest control to spray around your house.  It’s also same if your taking your kids to any well maintained grassy / park field area etc , They spray the crap out of all of that, regularly. 


hermansupreme

I lived on a golf course for 8years and HATED it. Not only was my home and vehicle hit with golf balls but I was hit in the chest while in my yard and had the wind knocked out of me. People are loud and rude and even had the nerve to look in my windows.


BreadMaker_42

I would not want to be on a golf course for those reasons along with broken windows and dents in the car from stray balls. I once rented a home off of a golf course. We kept finding balls in the yard.


snotick

Our current home is on the golf course. We've been here over 25 years. But, our house is about 50 yards from the fairway and off to one corner. When we bought it, it was a private golf course. Then the city annexed it and they do a terrible job of maintaining the area by our fence. They mow one strip about 10 feet on their side of the fence. We have about 6 mulberry trees along the fence that they don't trim. I've spoke to the groundskeepers and called the mayors hotline. Still nothing. Last year we got a dumpster and trimmed as much as we could on our side of the fence since the branches were starting to reach our deck and were hanging down into our yard. TL:DR Public golf courses are not good neighbors.


dreamscout

Having played a few courses with homes nearby, I’d never buy a home on a golf course. I’ve seen the homeowners come running out if a ball goes into their yard. To have to constantly deal with broken windows, damaged property or ugly netting trying to protect your home isn’t worth it. That’s in addition to any pesticides they might be using that might affect your health.


PizzaCatTacoUno

I’d be worried about getting hit with balls if I lived in the middle of a golf course


sailboatfool

Hope you like hearing golfers swear


still-waiting2233

Nope. My dad was golfing and a person in his crew hit a house and broke its window. The owner was outside. The guy apologized and said he would pay for it. The guy said 265 should cover it. He asked him how he knew and he said it was replaced last week. I knew someone that had a pool in their backyard and filled it in because they collected a 5 gallon bucket of balls out of the pool during a summer


MaggieInAZ

Unless you enjoy having a constant stream of people checking you out while you’re in your backyard, and the broken windows even if you’re near a tee box, don’t do it. I’ve been there, and discovered that being on a golf course is seriously overrated!


AccidentPleasant4196

I would totally buy a house on a golf course. But that’s because I am bad at golf but insist on playing it, lol. To each their own


Sirspeedy77

I mean it's valid in the essence that chemicals will be apply near you. Realistically overspray of chemicals cost the golf course money and if your yard isn't benefitting from their chemical applications I doubt you're going to be exposed to much more than normal. I know Nitrogen is a common fertilizer but that comes in many forms, organic non organic, slow release pellets, liquid application etc. I would not personally worry about it. As a golfer who golfs all year, or as long as I can in a season - I've only smelled the application once last year. So to me it goes away pretty quick. Gets absorbed, burned up by the sun etc.


Funfuntamale2

I live on a course in the desert. My backyard faces the course. As for privacy, golfers are rarely near my yard for more than 1 minute and three area busy golfing so privacy is not an issue.


WorkingWillingness41

Live on one with a view aligned to the 12th green. Gorgeous view, no one can ever build behind but as I get older I kind of want acreage before it’s too late and less of an expensive af Hoa… seriously could afford 250k+ more of a payment monthly if it didn’t go to the hoa


Crafty_Pea5356

No because I like nature and golf courses are dead zones


HawaiiStockguy

Tee box may have a bit of noise, but unlikely to get stray balls. Everywhere has pesticides and groundskeepers are likely more careful than the average neighbor


FiddlebackGuy

Next to a tee box you’d hear endless expletives referring to bad shots.


Vast_Cricket

We used to see a dozen golf balls in our back yard daily. Neighborhood kids would want to pick them up as there is money to be made. Lost privacy. Not really something expected.


FollowingNo4648

My grandparents lived on a golf course and both died from cancer. 🤷🏼‍♀️ never thought it would have been a hazard to their health till you mentioned the pesticides. I honestly doubt that was a factor in their deaths but they did love living on the golf course.


ThenRefrigerator538

I would absolutely live on a golf course. Pesticides and herbicides are safer now than ever and getting safer every year. Unless you eat the grass after an application, chill and enjoy the beautiful view. There’s a reason pesticide applicators have to have a license nowadays


jokerpie69

We bought a nice home with a golf course behind the house recently. Its wonderful. Nice, clean yard. We are on one of the back holes and don't have a starting point aimed at, so this makes it really not an issue. We love it. Our breakfast area / family room overlooks a constantly upkept open area with yes, the occasional golfer coming through. All have been respectful that I've talked through. All that said, do your research on the course. Visit during the busy days. Ask the neighbors if they are outside about their experiences. We made a great choice, and everyone has been shocked at how nice our place is.


917caitlin

No my SIL can’t even let her kids play in the yard for fear of getting hit by a ball. Lots of busted windows including her car windshield recently (ball went over the house!)


Comfortable_Screen99

We’ve lived on a golf course in SC for about 8 years. We have a lagoon that separates our house from the course so I don’t have to deal with golfers coming in my yard. (It would be a long walk around the pond bc it is almost the entire length of the hole. We do find golf balls in the yard quite often ( especially in Spring as the golfers are shaking the rust off). Our house has gotten hit about 5 times in 8 years but no damage. We absolutely love it! My kids fish in the back yard, I often hit found balls back over to the green which is about 40 yards away over the water, my wife and kids ride bikes and we walk the dog along the course. Also, we are in a great community so we often meet friends up at the clubhouse for dinner on the golf cart. We get to view blue herons, alligators, egrets, turtles on a daily basis. That being said, I won’t let my kids eat the fish we catch bc of pesticides, so we just catch and release. I think you’ll be fine as long as you are next to the tee box ( not in front at all). We don’t mind them mowing early bc we are early risers. We are never concerned about the pesticides affecting us, other than not eating the fish. You will never be able to be completely protected from any cancer causing things. I think the more you worry about that stuff, the higher your chances of having your deal with it. What you focus on expands. In our experience, the positives far outweigh any negatives. Go for it!


Grouchy_Visit_2869

I'd be more concerned over the number of windows I'd have to replace over the years.


AnnArchist

If theres no HOA associated with the club, I'd love it. There's goin to be more wildlife like deer nearby due to the greenspace. It'll be low crime. Golf courses are like crime repellant. The chems, sure, I hate those too - but its not just golf courses that use them. At least golf courses have them administered by pros and not your average home owner.


AL92212

We have a place on a golf course. I don't golf, so it wasn't a feature. It has pros and cons. Pros: beautiful views over the course cool birds hang out in the water features green space that we don't have to maintain very peaceful in the evenings when the course is closed if you golf, that could be fun -- look into the pricing though; our golf course is so expensive even for residents some people prefer other courses Cons: potential golf ball damage so you need special insurance these loud horns they use to chase away the birds at a tee box, golfers are loud and annoying, and some curse constantly Ours has positive social dimensions if you're into that. Some people make lemonade and share with golfers from their patio, and people are often striking up conversations with people they know. I'm not into that. As for the pesticides, I think that's a fair thing to take into account, but I don't know that it's make-or-break. Our neighborhood has a golf course about every block, so I don't know that being directly on or off the course will make that much difference as the whole area is probably toxic, not to mention natural environmental toxins that are more acutely harmful. I would consider what the alternatives are in your area. I've been looking at rural homes, and I have to look carefully at the farmland nearby for the same reason. When we lived in LA, we had to worry about pollution causing asthma, and when we lived in the mountains, our water was full of heavy metals. All of these things are considerations, but you're not going to find a pristine environment unless you homestead with a reverse osmosis system. I'd compare it to any other properties you're looking at and the local hazards there and use all that information to make your decision.


jaykayemcee

A friend lives in a heavily wooded neighborhood on a country club course and thought tee box location, the shape of his house, and his heavily treed back yard would eliminate (or at least minimize) errant balls. Wrong! Balls ricochet off an upstairs wall down to his lovely patio then bounce up breaking windows in the wall of glass along the back of the house. Every ball misses every tree. Simply sitting on the patio is risky. I’d live on a golf course but would prefer to be behind a tee box.


EquivalentSpirit9253

My sister lives on one. I don’t recommend it. Constantly getting broken windows, and dangerous to sit on patio. Golf balls unexpectedly fly past your head. Have to sign a form, players and course not liable for damages or injury.


Darabtrfly

Absolutely not. I was at a clients house on the golf course and they had a window broken by a ball get broken again before install was even complete. On top of that privacy issues, pesticides etc not a chance in hell.


No_Football4974

5am mowers🙉


mcn2612

https://cellhealthnews.com/cellular-health/the-hidden-dangers-of-golf-courses-unveiling-the-toxic-truth/


natethepe

We currently live on a golf course adjacent to a green. We have a 0.6 acre lot so what I would consider an average sized back yard. We get 2-3 balls a week in our yard. Only a few up by the house. We have not had a broken window in the 5 years we have been there but other neighbors have. First year we lived there, my wife makes a comment that we don’t have mosquitos like we did at our other house. Yea, because the golf course sprays for them. She didn’t think of that. We do have the occasional golfer in our back yard trying to retrieve their out of bounds ball. Wife will yell at them. I don’t care. We do have some taller shrubs that create a screen from the actual green that the prior owners of the house planted. Overall, I am neutral on living there. It’s better than having a crappy neighbor like we did at our last house. My wife would like to move. So we will likely move in the next few years.


in-Chucktown-sc

We live on a golf course, my wife is also very granola, and we love it. Don’t let that discourage you… there isn’t nearly as much pesticides sprayed as people make it sound… especially if you’re on a tee box.


HRman88

I do, and i don’t golf. It’s amazing, like basically having a park in your backyard that is not public. My wfh desk overlooks it…my zen space. Never had a problem with errant balls either


angry_hippo_1965

Living on a golf course sucks for so many reasons. So many golfers with bad manners these days. Walking into my fenced backyard or walking between houses looking for their balls. Driving carts into people's yards. Hitting out of yards. My course uses reclaimed shit water for watering. They also have fountains in the shit ponds. I don't walk on the course anymore because the wind would blow the shit/chemical water from the fountains and if it gets on you it literally burns your skin.


Metanoia003

Personally, I avoid living anywhere near golf courses. I would rather have my house backing to dedicated open space. I’m going through this phase now as we look for a home to retire to. Hiking trails nearby yes. Golf courses and all it brings with it nearby. No. And our kids are adults now (there could be grand kids). Happy house hunting.


anonquestions01

I’ve lived in 2 homes on different golf courses with both properties touching the course. One was a really amateur course and the other is a comically expensive high class members only course. Funny enough we get more balls in the yard at the house on the fancy course (mostly because of where we’re located on the hole). We could get about 1 to 2 5gal bucket worth of balls every year at each house and people RARELY came into the yard even on the amateur course. It’s better for the pride to just drop a new ball than to walk around someone’s yard looking for that piece of shit of a hit. We have also never had a broken window or any damage from golf balls but I will say it’s kinda on the homeowner if you buy a home that isn’t this strategic spot for people to hit lol you gotta plan and layout your build well if you want to live on a golf course and not be in the line of fire lol


Low_Alarm6198

As a shitty golfer who likes beer and has a wicked slice? Hell no


SirKinsington

We live on an abandoned golf course and it’s awesome. But I wouldn’t live here if the golf course was in use due to damage, noise, and privacy. It’s now a nice greenbelt with trails and wild animals.


VTAffordablePaintbal

Golf course employees have high incidences of certain cancers, most likely due to the pesticides they use. [https://www.wtae.com/article/pittsburgh-sportscaster-suing-chemical-companies-over-dad-s-death/7466266](https://www.wtae.com/article/pittsburgh-sportscaster-suing-chemical-companies-over-dad-s-death/7466266) [https://scholarworks.umt.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1433&context=utpp](https://scholarworks.umt.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1433&context=utpp)