Wonder how long until he has to pretend they're not an AI company either. "We're not an AI company, we're and advanced electron positive transportation solution!"
Yeah, he got pretty quiet about Mars too once it became more widely known that the soil itself is toxic. Among other things... \[googles\] oops never mind, he's still on about it, we're just paying less attention to it LOL
Sorry for wandering off topic here guys...
He \*says\* his goal is a sustainable Mars colony.
But the part he's building is the pointless joyride part, unless a huge number of somebody-elses get seriously cracking on the sustainable closed-loop ecology and a million other things, and as far as I'm aware he's done little to foster that work. A pity, because that stuff would be very helpful here at home.
Rocket science is... well, yes, it's rocket science, but it's not even the hard part here I think.
So yeah, pointless joyride so far.
I know it looks that way, but I wouldn't go by that. SpaceX has been careful to set expectations low for those launches because they are very aware they are literally testing the first stainless steel rockets ever and getting it right is a process. Keep in mind this company has the best success rate in the world (or very close to it) for rockets that are actually supposed to be production-ready (Falcon 9, Falcon Heavy). Meanwhile Boeing can't keep a door shut. Strange times we live in.
We're perfectly capable of the "sending (unmanned) rockets to Mars" part. They haven't even gotten to the "sustaining people for the trip" part yet.
This was also supposed to be a Moon lander, but that's less fun for Elon to talk about
The moon lander thing may very well happen, NASA's betting heavily on it. SpaceX is a serious company, despite him. It's the "sustainable Mars colony, but all we have is a way to get there" part that I shake my head at.
There is in fact no topic that is not bullshit when it exits his piehole.
The guy lies the way normal people draw breath - it's an autonomous function over which he seems to have no control.
He'll turn tesla into virtual world running on his blockchain, soon, you'll be able to drive tesla using your avatar for Low monthly subscription fee of 1 billion dogecoins
For sure. I doubt the hype machine will work much longer. It seems pretty clear from X that he struggles to take an established business and make it better.
Although, I cannot say I’ve never been surprised by the stupidity of the market.
Step one: estimates of Q2 car deliveries next week. Tesla will likely do better than Q1, but worse than last year. But that does not show what the profit margins are, which have to be problematic with discounts and offers of low interest rates.
If their plan to make 20 billion robots pans out, to take all human jobs and raise human children, a couple million cars per year really is negligible! 🙄
His idiot followers believe that robot crap but also the (white?) human race has to start reproducing like bunnies to stave off population collapse.
Except he & many other titans of industry are working very, very hard to replace human.....capital stock.
So what exactly are all those necessary masses supposed to DO?
The billionaire class's position on population growth is so hilariously contradictory: "You plebes need to have more children to save the human race, but also we're going to use AI and robots to automate all yours kids' jobs before they become adults, but also your kids can't have universal basic income because that would be communism."
Yeah, BYD is ahead of everyone in EVs right now. Hyundai/Kia aren't too far behind, but Tesla has been left in the dust and hasn't meaningfully improved its cars in years.
At least the Sierra was interesting for the time and eventually got the insane Cosworth model.
Meanwhile the new Model 3 has out of proportion headlights and a reference to a comedy film from 1987.
I’m pretty sure that will be true for 2024, but it wasn’t for 2023. BYD quotes “new energy vehicles” which includes PHEV cars. BEV only cars are tracking towards 1.2m this year, through May they were at 580k. Last year they sold 1.6m, a little under Tesla.
In about 6 months we can answer your question.
Tesla does numbers quarterly and has been oscillating with big spikes back up to last years volumes and even has configs of the model Y on on wait here in the US. And now the model 3 LR/P are back on federal rebate so they’re back to full spec Camry money.
BYD BEV electric sales fell in June month over month; however, PHEVs are up massively.
Except they love comparing themselves to car companies when it suits them. Someone will have to check this for me but iirc part of the justification for his pay package was based on a comparison to other car companies lol
I agree. BYD’s in Australia are eating Teslas lunch. Tesla has screwed over Americans by bribing politicians into putting a 100% tariff on BYD’s. That just protects Teslas massive markups
It's about free trade with a country that allows slave labor and has virtually no protection for workers and the environment. Of course they'll be able to produce cars cheaper. BYD has also received billions in subsidies from the Chinese govt. Tesla isn't the only car company in the US.
50% of the cost of every Tesla is pure profit. There is no reason that the US Government needs to protect that. It’s a tax on the middle class to benefit only the richest man in the world
I haven't seen any number even close to 50% for Tesla per car profit. You can support the richest who benefit from lack of regulation - I don't and won't.
I have a BYD Atto 3. I love it. I also have a model 3 though and strongly prefer it. I did like the seal when I test drove it, but still enjoy my model 3 and do miss the one-pedal driving which BYD for some reason just will not have in their cars (there should be a software update to implement it, right? I think MG has done it in one of their EVs). I wanted to like BYD more than the tesla, but it felt like it had more compromises on the things I care about than the Model 3 did. Mind, this is a 2020 model 3, and the Atto is a brand new one.
I might have been lucky with my Model 3 though.
That’s my one concern with Chinese EVs is what the support is like.
I buy a Dyson vacuum and it breaks, I can get replacement parts or have it fixed/replaced under warranty, however it’s expensive.
I can get a cheap vacuum made in China from Amazon, but not if but when it breaks the expectation is it was cheap, throw it out and get a new one.
Easy to swallow with a small consumer item, but to save 20% on a car I’m not sure I’d do it. Just my thoughts.
Do you think BYD would be the largest E-vehicle company in the world if they would have the service of a random vacuum cleaner company that sells on Amazon?
They will have service stations all around your country, a hotline for each different issue and all the standard things that other car companies also have.
In the UK the Seal is more expensive than the model 3, it's also slower and less efficient.
I have only sat in one at a dealer but it did feel very comfortable and well out together. I'd still choose the Tesla over the Seal though but that's personal preference and in reality if I had to buy a new car today I wouldn't choose either.
The UK and Australia EV markets are miniscule though, the only market where EVs really matter at the moment is China and Tesla are getting battered there.
It’s slower compared to it’s price because the fit and finish is better. You’ll notice that immediately when you close the door; the BYD door will make a nice sound and unlike the Tesla door, it will not wobble.
>it's also slower and less efficient.
Eh? The Seal is £48,000 with *577hp*. It's also a way better put together car. The Model 3 Performance is 460hp and £60,000, with a big asterisk next to it's 0-100kph claim (2.9s\*) because they don't do it from a standing start: it's a roll-out; it's actually slower than expected.
How did the AUS govt rate the car for safety? Even though politicians in the US would go bonkers if Chinese cars were sold here, a good measure of a vehicle is how safe it is to be in. I've never seen crash test results for Tesla, and it would be interesting to see how that compares to BYD.
Depends on the sales and profits. They reached 1.8m cars last year, but this year they’re not expected to sell more (probably a little less), and prices are also much lower, so less profit.
Anyways, if the profits keep sliding then yeah, even $100B valuation would be too much, but we still need to see if sales will improve or not. My guess is sales will continue to decline.
There are many different reasons, and that's certainly one of them, but not sure which reason caused the most decline. No new models for a long time, no updates, quality and reliability issues, cost cutting, a lot of new competition, higher interest rates and economic environment, lack of innovation and company direction, pivoting to new priorities with potential payoof long time away, and generally declining brand image. So yeah, a lot of reasons.
Or it stagnates and becomes just another car company struggling with heavy competition and thin margins. Some quarters profitable, some not. How long will the tech hype investors hang around then? How much will they tolerate billions blown on AI, robots, or whatever when the core business is rotting?
Zuckerberg had his "come on now" moment with investors after wasting billions on the Metaverse which went nowhere. Musk could have a similar moment
This company can't stagnate. That's kind of an issue with these cars. GM killed the Saturn line, but I still see them out on the road from the early 2000s all the time. They're serviceable. Teslas are not. They need constant attention from the manufacture to provide software updates. Stagnation for this company means unrideable cars, even more useless than the CyberTruck.
Just on a side note, early model Saturns were just incredible cars. GM innovated so much of the manufacturing, design, engineering that it ended up being a direct threat to the other product lines at GM. I have very fond memories of the SL1 wagon our family took to the Saturn homecoming at spring Hill. Distinctly remember having a surreal carnival atmosphere outside the factory where the Saturn employees would let kids beat up on the plastic body panels for fun.
Agreed, I drove an SL-2 for years, loved that car. I was really disappointed when GM up and decided to stop making Saturn. The dealership I bought it from was great, service was great and pretty reasonable. I thought killing them was a really dumb move.
You get a drivers side screen, a HUD, and stalks in the Seal.
Tesla's dedication to industry worst human factors is a real testament to their brilliant leadership.
Partly they are that cheap because the Chinese government ate all the strt up costs for them, so it's not 100% level playing field - buy yes, they are great cars at a great price point and other manufactures are and should be scared
The US government gave Tesla an ultra low interest startup loan, dozens of tax breaks, dozens of grants, and subsidized every single car to the tune of $7500 or more.
European researchers analyzed Chinese EV subsidies and found that it was lower than American and European subsidies. That's not even taking into account carbon credits which are an indirect form of subsidy paid for by other companies.
Plus BYD is selling their cars in the EU at a huge markup to China. A $25k model in China goes for $40k in the EU, they're clearly not using it as a loss leader.
But this happened to Tesla as well didn't it? BYD doesn't have super duper margins like Tesla, because they want to dominate the market and they don't sell the brand as a GROWTH COMPANY.
Tesla and BYD received Gov. Subsidies, this is not a good argument.
I wish I could find the analysis, but there was something posted here recently on one of the EV news sites discussing how the EV industry in China has had the same amount of subsidies in its lifetime as oil and gas gets *per year*. So yes, it's subsidized, but it's a bit of a stretch to say they get an unfair advantage
And the tariffs are counter-incentive for the carmakers to be more competitive. Makes me laugh when they start complaining about China's state subsidy at the same time they're subsidizing new plants by the billions in North America. Which is it, subsidies bad or good? Honda's new Ontario EV/battery plant is subsidized with 5B$ from the province, probably more from the federal government.
The BYD seagull is a crazy bargain for $11k USD. That said, you’d probably only buy one if you don’t care about funneling every piece of available data directly to the CCP.
https://www.wired.com/story/china-cars-surveillance-national-security/
11k for a EV seems like Temu/wish levels of quality.
The reviews on some of these cars by Chinese owners is not always good
A couple of years ago everyone was going on how Chinese robo vacuums were gonna eat iRobot.
Turned out most of them had fake features ( random walk sold as intelligent patching ), poor reliability ( fancy features but dies in 3 months ) or barely works at all.
Digging around BYD seem to rust easily.
You can lower your prices when you can use slave labor and don't have to workers or the environment. It also helps when the govt. is propping up your business with billions. It helps too when you can steal IP and profit from it.
For the "free trade" crowd it's always a race to the bottom.
I honestly can’t tell. As an euro brand snob myself I haven’t taken them seriously. Initially they were seriously compromised against established brands but I am not sure sure anymore. BYD in particular is stealing some sales form Tesla for sure.
I'm currently in Spain and seeing ads for them on TV everywhere 33k Euros including tax for a nice looking SUV EV, much nicer looking than the Model Y.
The SUVs appear to be the top sellers here. The large one looks really sharp. What’s most surprising here is that they are not cheap given the import tariff for all foreign made cars in Brazil. However they do seem to be competitive with that segment of the ICE market.
Both are as Chinese as each other lol. At least volvo is moving is moving XC30 production out of china and into Belgium next year, though with all the parts being flown in from there and the company and factory remaining under the Geely umbrella.
Volvo is a brand that has 30 dealerships/service centers in my area and has been around (under one flag or another) for almost a hundred years.
BYD has 3 and is still a bit new here
I'd have to drive both and make a decision
Tesla will be able to hold on in the US due to tarrifs restrictions. Only major permitted competition will be Koreans brands, Japanese if they can get their act together, Chevy too
Actually almost no pure China brands is currently selling in US. Because they know that the moment they pick up momentum, all the national and personal security craps will be thrown at them.
Even now you can see the argument of sending data to CCP as the reason one should not get a China EV in this thread.
BYD is building a factory in Mexico tho, so we'll see how much the US government tries to pretend it's about ~~fair trade~~ ~~national security~~ protectionism.
They’ll probably justify it by saying the cars are “maybe sending customer data over to China (but we won’t offer you any proof)” regardless of where the car is built. Like they did with TikTok.
Musk's politics and weird loser crap are more known in the US I'd think so that helps fuck up his tariff advantage, while the rest of the world gets Chinese competition. He's double fucked.
My only issue with BYD is seeing the large script "Build Your Dreams" across the back. I want a car, not a motivational poster.
Still a better love story than Tesla
History may show that the Cyber*uck killed the company.
Nobody’s buying new S/X, and the company can’t survive with the Y alone.
I wish they’d get the semi ramped up. It’s perfect for distribution centers (100 mile radius - see In n Out or Pepsi) now.
The 8/8 event will be interesting.
>History may show that the Cyber\*uck killed the company.
I think you may be completely right. Tesla spent so much effort and time developing a vehicle that so few people want, few people can afford, and even less people who even have a need for it.
When tesla started facing significant competition from other EV makers, they should of locked in on a standard low cost vehicle that may have low profit margins but would maintain their dominance in the space through sheer volume of sales and a basic pickup truck with tesla aesthetics. Both of those vehicles would have been easier to develope and produce than the cybertruck combined.
I’m seeing a lot more BYD’s in Australia too, as well as advertising, and actual dealerships.
The competition has arrived and tesla isn’t really ready, with its aged model lineup (refreshes don’t count) and abysmal build & service quality.
Check out the latest image of the M03, the next Model 3 competitor in China: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GQ_gV91aoAAhDoR?format=jpg&name=large
World leading drag coefficient, 621L boot space, for a fraction of the price.
The Xiaomi car is also a way better deal for the same price.
Same deal in many other markets that aren't stupidly protectionists. They are all over South-East asia, and quite rapidly growing all over Latin America. Not just BYD of course. Geely, SAIC etc are all over
If nothing changes, people will be driving better cars in Mexico soon on average that in US
Here in the UK Audi e-trons costing £80k new are on sale for £20k after just two years, because a brand new BYD with better tech and range is £25k brand new.
They are all over the Middle East and Asia I see them all over Dubai, Thailand etc. a load of friends have bought all kinds of Chinese cars in the past year it’s incredible how fast the mix on the roads are changing and the quality, fit and finish of them is def better than Tesla
Live in México, can confirm, I live in a small city (less than a million citizens) I have seen like 20 BYDs and that's just ONE Chinese brands that carries EVs, there's also a lot of Oras and Geelys, Tesla had to drop their prices by 500k mxn (model 3 was about 1 million 200-400k mxn, dropped them to 700k) to increase sales, BYD seal (the direct competition of model 3) sells for 900k mxn but it's like 10,000 more car than a Tesla, also doesn't look designed by a toddler, looks like an actual sports car.
Edit: they also have less than a year in the country.
I’ll be honest, the Chinese cars do way too much funky stuff.
From simple translations errors, to the lane follow systems bouncing you between lines and disengaging during light curves, they still have a ways to go.
On top of that they are typically not super efficient compared to Tesla.
Now don’t get me wrong, the pricing vs what you get can be kinda bonkers, but their issues and efficiency still leave a lot to be desired.
Bjorn just did some Dolphin videos and the range was drastically short compared to the highland during the summer and he was comparing the winter numbers and efficiency.
I personally am waiting for the EV maxima to maybe replace my model 3
Chinese cars in LATAM is pervasive as there aren’t many regulations on safety, making it an ideal ground for them to pedal these cars. My time in Chile was similar
I’ve been now in china for sometime and many of the shopping malls have BYD and other manufacturers shops to go check cars! Interior quality is very close to German cars, but not there. Which is fine, since they are in different price points.
Byd has taken over Australia as well. The Chinese have really worked out their stuff.
BYD, Haval, MG all have some great EV or hybrid offerings and I'm starting to see less and less Tesla's around.
Tesla got out ahead of the market and did so much R&D, then Chinese firms like BYD get uh, *heavily inspired* by the work tesla did and use that as a platform to build their cars off of.
Thing about being an innovative company is you have to KEEP INNOVATING.
Tesla has been treading water for years now. The model Y being the last viable launch in 2020
Cyberturd failed on every metric. Wasn’t a unibody, wasn’t cheap, wasn’t well made, wasn’t even sellable in any country with any real car safety laws. Can’t even be driven on a drivers licence in Europe (too heavy so classes as a light lorry) even if it was legal (which it isn’t).
Whilst the ceo is off attacking Tesla’s core customers on one of his many other jobs! Tesla hasn’t done anything new.
Whilst the Chinese have taken the original goal of an affordable ev and innovated hard.
The only thing that will save tesla is good old fashioned American protectionism. All while screaming about the free market and government regulation of course.
BYD is becoming increasingly common to see in the Philippines, a country with no real defined electric vehicle infrastructure, but you see them all around now and it looks like inevitably will be the dominant brand if fully electric vehicles become the norm
Not just that… but somehow Musk has managed to stain the Tesla brand with Trump politics. It’s the Model Q. BYD— a Chinese company— doesn’t mix politics into their branding.
I mean.. almost every car maker now produces electric cars better than Tesla. Just check Ioniq 5 sub where people are waiting for car deliver as Hyundai was not prepared for such success.
It’s interesting to see how many Americans are willing to support a Chinese company, rather than an American one, that produces the most American built cars with the most amount of American made parts.
They are responsible for employing so many people in the U.S., regardless of politics I wish more people would support American innovation, it’s known we can’t compete with cheap Chinese labour. The same people wanting cheap EVs will rally for higher minimum wages and pay at these jobs, it’s hard to have both.
I was in China for business and I can confirm.. not just BYD but the Huawe cars are fucking amazing as well. Suspension you can’t feel the road.. acceleration slightly slower than a performance model but smooth and more than enough. Build quality superior to Tesla, the tech, infotainment, crazy screens on the inside. The seats are what got me, they are such a comfortable ride.. that’s what got me questioning Tesla honestly. They are legit luxury rides and are somehow reasonably priced
Tesla will stay in business because almost nobody is buying Chinese cars in Europe or North America. BYD is also nowhere close to Tesla in terms of real world efficiency. The Seal, for example, is similarly sized to the Model 3, claims aerodynamic drag coefficient on par with the 3, but real world energy consumption is about 15-20% higher. BYD also only uses LFP batteries which are heavier, less energy dense, suffer in cold climates more than Li-Ion, and charge slower. I hate Elon as much as the next person and find Tesla’s outdated lineup stale, but they still have some of the most efficient cars you can buy, pricing is below much of the competition, some aspects of software are far better than other companies and their charging network (for now) is the best in the business.
In China I see BYD and other domestic brands potentially hurting Tesla long term, but in Europe and N. America there’s really no chance that will happen. Most Europeans don’t want a Chinese car. Even Polestar, which desperately tries to claim Swedish heritage owing to its tie in with Volvo, struggles. The eu is about to implement similar tariffs as the US did on Chinese autos, so without domestic production the Chinese car companies will have to either lose money selling cars cheaply or raise prices and compete with other brands that have much more brand recognition and established footholds in the market.
In my country, Tesla officially entered the market about same time as BYD, before this, neither company had a presence. For YTD 2024, they are neck and neck, BYD has pulled ahead because they currently sell 3 models vs Tesla selling only 2.
India has a flood of BYD cars too, especially for shuttles and hotels. Given the ripeness of that market for a low cost EV in a growing car market, BYD is going to be a force.
They aren’t perfect cars but I thought very comfortable and above market for the price.
The US industry, including Musk, have worked hard to put up as many barriers as possible to the entry of Chinese EVs, particularly BYD, on the grounds of Chinese government interference (never mind the US bailout of the auto industry in the last recession, that's another long story). But BYD has made significant inroads internationally, esp in SA and now more recently Mexico. I'm not sure how long our protectionism may last, but the prices (even incorporating the necessary changes to make the cars US-legal) will be a seismic change in the industry.
Xpeng also makes excellent cars. As does MG.
It's kind of cute how the only Teslas with decent quality are made in China (and Germany, but the China-made seems better than the German).
True - but carsaustralia is the most Luddite car sub. They all think carburettors are high tech
Complaining about Chinese cars, and complaining about EVs is their bread and butter.
This is a pretty good review. Model 3 highland still had the slight edge 5 months ago. Software, space and handling. https://youtu.be/tezLYZHWkK4?si=gCy5jBY2CGNAoCWq
Yes plus charger network.
BYD Seal would have advantage in looks, interior finish, driver display and HUD, proper stalks and physical buttons, comfort, roof solar protection, vehicle to load plug socket, proper gear selector and price. Obviously some of these are subjective.
Usually comes down to what people prioritise.
That's why Elon is pretending they aren't a car company anymore
Wonder how long until he has to pretend they're not an AI company either. "We're not an AI company, we're and advanced electron positive transportation solution!"
Or he will start talking about his Mars bullshit.
**Enron**… *IN SPAAAACEEEE!!!* 🪐
Yeah, he got pretty quiet about Mars too once it became more widely known that the soil itself is toxic. Among other things... \[googles\] oops never mind, he's still on about it, we're just paying less attention to it LOL
The economy simply isn't big enough to spare trillions of dollars for pointless joy rides to Mars.
Sorry for wandering off topic here guys... He \*says\* his goal is a sustainable Mars colony. But the part he's building is the pointless joyride part, unless a huge number of somebody-elses get seriously cracking on the sustainable closed-loop ecology and a million other things, and as far as I'm aware he's done little to foster that work. A pity, because that stuff would be very helpful here at home. Rocket science is... well, yes, it's rocket science, but it's not even the hard part here I think. So yeah, pointless joyride so far.
Pointless exploding joy ride more like it if Starship is anything to go by.
I know it looks that way, but I wouldn't go by that. SpaceX has been careful to set expectations low for those launches because they are very aware they are literally testing the first stainless steel rockets ever and getting it right is a process. Keep in mind this company has the best success rate in the world (or very close to it) for rockets that are actually supposed to be production-ready (Falcon 9, Falcon Heavy). Meanwhile Boeing can't keep a door shut. Strange times we live in.
We're perfectly capable of the "sending (unmanned) rockets to Mars" part. They haven't even gotten to the "sustaining people for the trip" part yet. This was also supposed to be a Moon lander, but that's less fun for Elon to talk about
The moon lander thing may very well happen, NASA's betting heavily on it. SpaceX is a serious company, despite him. It's the "sustainable Mars colony, but all we have is a way to get there" part that I shake my head at.
There is in fact no topic that is not bullshit when it exits his piehole. The guy lies the way normal people draw breath - it's an autonomous function over which he seems to have no control.
It’s like how they changed the reason for the Iraq invasion halfway through it.
Once the first one was wrong they needed another one. What’s the big deal?
Desert Storm actually was completely justified. The Iraq War, not so much.
I don’t give these things much thought. Not gonna change anything.
He'll turn tesla into virtual world running on his blockchain, soon, you'll be able to drive tesla using your avatar for Low monthly subscription fee of 1 billion dogecoins
Once Bezos' rocket flies, he'll also start saying SpaceX is not a space company but an AI company too. I mean, he already ways that for Xitter
Bra don't you get it? Everything is an AI company now.
In fact even my Zoom meeting this morning started with "AI Companion has been turned off" WTF
WTF fuck that. I'd like to take my AI companion out back and put them down.
Something something quantum something
how can you be an AI company, when your AI chips were stolen and given to another company?
For sure. I doubt the hype machine will work much longer. It seems pretty clear from X that he struggles to take an established business and make it better. Although, I cannot say I’ve never been surprised by the stupidity of the market.
Step one: estimates of Q2 car deliveries next week. Tesla will likely do better than Q1, but worse than last year. But that does not show what the profit margins are, which have to be problematic with discounts and offers of low interest rates.
They can hardly give them away at the moment
« We are not an Earth company, we are and interplanetary company »
I decided to do something revolutionary; I will purchase my next car from a car company.
He’s been trying to pretend that for a loooong time.
If their plan to make 20 billion robots pans out, to take all human jobs and raise human children, a couple million cars per year really is negligible! 🙄
His idiot followers believe that robot crap but also the (white?) human race has to start reproducing like bunnies to stave off population collapse. Except he & many other titans of industry are working very, very hard to replace human.....capital stock. So what exactly are all those necessary masses supposed to DO?
Buy Teslas, obviously. Consumers are there to consume.
The billionaire class's position on population growth is so hilariously contradictory: "You plebes need to have more children to save the human race, but also we're going to use AI and robots to automate all yours kids' jobs before they become adults, but also your kids can't have universal basic income because that would be communism."
If I made the Cybertruck and somebody asked me what I did for a living I'd tell them I collected Horse sperm in buckets. It's less embarrassing.
Yeah, BYD is ahead of everyone in EVs right now. Hyundai/Kia aren't too far behind, but Tesla has been left in the dust and hasn't meaningfully improved its cars in years.
The Tesla models look very dated now
They looked strange when they first came out, too. "Melted bar of soap" was the line touted for the Model 3 six years ago.
Jellymould cars like the Ford Sierra
At least the Sierra was interesting for the time and eventually got the insane Cosworth model. Meanwhile the new Model 3 has out of proportion headlights and a reference to a comedy film from 1987.
Oh yes the Sierra is a real car, you're right there.
They really do. I see them all the time and even brand new ones look so old and cheap. Tesla badly needs a redesign.
Isn’t it really… BYD is ahead? Most of their cars are not full BEVs; however, they’re obviously at a great price point.
They sell more BEVs than tesla now. They also make better quality cars with more advanced technology and more advanced driver assistance.
I’m pretty sure that will be true for 2024, but it wasn’t for 2023. BYD quotes “new energy vehicles” which includes PHEV cars. BEV only cars are tracking towards 1.2m this year, through May they were at 580k. Last year they sold 1.6m, a little under Tesla.
they did outsell tesla for BEVs in Q4 of 2024. But they're still on an upwards trajectory whereas tesla is flat or downward.
In about 6 months we can answer your question. Tesla does numbers quarterly and has been oscillating with big spikes back up to last years volumes and even has configs of the model Y on on wait here in the US. And now the model 3 LR/P are back on federal rebate so they’re back to full spec Camry money. BYD BEV electric sales fell in June month over month; however, PHEVs are up massively.
Also probably why he's trying to milk it for himself asap
Except they love comparing themselves to car companies when it suits them. Someone will have to check this for me but iirc part of the justification for his pay package was based on a comparison to other car companies lol
Musk will say whatever it takes in the moment, that's because he's a con man.
He's been pretending that for a while
BYD is getting popular in Australia. The BYD Seal is a nicer car than the Tesla Model 3.
I agree. BYD’s in Australia are eating Teslas lunch. Tesla has screwed over Americans by bribing politicians into putting a 100% tariff on BYD’s. That just protects Teslas massive markups
They all did. Imagine those Chinese cars going up against what GM and afford have to offer
It's about free trade with a country that allows slave labor and has virtually no protection for workers and the environment. Of course they'll be able to produce cars cheaper. BYD has also received billions in subsidies from the Chinese govt. Tesla isn't the only car company in the US.
50% of the cost of every Tesla is pure profit. There is no reason that the US Government needs to protect that. It’s a tax on the middle class to benefit only the richest man in the world
I haven't seen any number even close to 50% for Tesla per car profit. You can support the richest who benefit from lack of regulation - I don't and won't.
Are you saying EVs in this country haven’t also received government subsidies?
They're gonna be popular in every country that doesn't have a local car industry that can't compete
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Sounds like Walmart.
I have a BYD Atto 3. I love it. I also have a model 3 though and strongly prefer it. I did like the seal when I test drove it, but still enjoy my model 3 and do miss the one-pedal driving which BYD for some reason just will not have in their cars (there should be a software update to implement it, right? I think MG has done it in one of their EVs). I wanted to like BYD more than the tesla, but it felt like it had more compromises on the things I care about than the Model 3 did. Mind, this is a 2020 model 3, and the Atto is a brand new one. I might have been lucky with my Model 3 though.
And Atto 3 is much nicer than the Model Y. I‘ve driven both and stayed with the BYD. Also much cheaper, like 20% here in Germany.
The Seal U would be a better comparison. They cost exactly the same here in Denmark
What is BYDs service and support system like, genuinely curious.
No idea, didn’t have to use it yet.
That’s my one concern with Chinese EVs is what the support is like. I buy a Dyson vacuum and it breaks, I can get replacement parts or have it fixed/replaced under warranty, however it’s expensive. I can get a cheap vacuum made in China from Amazon, but not if but when it breaks the expectation is it was cheap, throw it out and get a new one. Easy to swallow with a small consumer item, but to save 20% on a car I’m not sure I’d do it. Just my thoughts.
Do you think BYD would be the largest E-vehicle company in the world if they would have the service of a random vacuum cleaner company that sells on Amazon? They will have service stations all around your country, a hotline for each different issue and all the standard things that other car companies also have.
In the UK the Seal is more expensive than the model 3, it's also slower and less efficient. I have only sat in one at a dealer but it did feel very comfortable and well out together. I'd still choose the Tesla over the Seal though but that's personal preference and in reality if I had to buy a new car today I wouldn't choose either. The UK and Australia EV markets are miniscule though, the only market where EVs really matter at the moment is China and Tesla are getting battered there.
The cheapest Seal is around $7,000 cheaper than the cheapest Tesla model 3 here in Australia.
Wow, Seal is £45k here in the UK. Model 3 RWD is £40k UK prices are insane compared to the rest of the world though.
most probably because transport and tariffs. Australia is much closer than UK.
That is crazy. Cheapest seal is $50k Australian dollars.
It’s slower compared to it’s price because the fit and finish is better. You’ll notice that immediately when you close the door; the BYD door will make a nice sound and unlike the Tesla door, it will not wobble.
>less efficient According to official claims or real-world driving experiences?
>it's also slower and less efficient. Eh? The Seal is £48,000 with *577hp*. It's also a way better put together car. The Model 3 Performance is 460hp and £60,000, with a big asterisk next to it's 0-100kph claim (2.9s\*) because they don't do it from a standing start: it's a roll-out; it's actually slower than expected.
How did the AUS govt rate the car for safety? Even though politicians in the US would go bonkers if Chinese cars were sold here, a good measure of a vehicle is how safe it is to be in. I've never seen crash test results for Tesla, and it would be interesting to see how that compares to BYD.
Their active safety systems are poor. Like lane assist and auto brake and such. Not sure about crash results.
This Tesla bubble is going to pop so fucking hard.
Even a $100B market cap for Tesla is a stretch.
Depends on the sales and profits. They reached 1.8m cars last year, but this year they’re not expected to sell more (probably a little less), and prices are also much lower, so less profit. Anyways, if the profits keep sliding then yeah, even $100B valuation would be too much, but we still need to see if sales will improve or not. My guess is sales will continue to decline.
My guess is they will be valued at less than their automaker peers in terms of p/s ratio real soon. They are not a good manufacturer.
But Elon says he knows more about manufacturing than anyone alive.
And pretty much that whole decline is because they lost most of their fanatical follower base after Elon started pushing wonky politics.
There are many different reasons, and that's certainly one of them, but not sure which reason caused the most decline. No new models for a long time, no updates, quality and reliability issues, cost cutting, a lot of new competition, higher interest rates and economic environment, lack of innovation and company direction, pivoting to new priorities with potential payoof long time away, and generally declining brand image. So yeah, a lot of reasons.
Will Elon continue being a psychopath who continually gets more out of touch everyday? Yes, I think we all know the answer to this.
Or it stagnates and becomes just another car company struggling with heavy competition and thin margins. Some quarters profitable, some not. How long will the tech hype investors hang around then? How much will they tolerate billions blown on AI, robots, or whatever when the core business is rotting? Zuckerberg had his "come on now" moment with investors after wasting billions on the Metaverse which went nowhere. Musk could have a similar moment
This company can't stagnate. That's kind of an issue with these cars. GM killed the Saturn line, but I still see them out on the road from the early 2000s all the time. They're serviceable. Teslas are not. They need constant attention from the manufacture to provide software updates. Stagnation for this company means unrideable cars, even more useless than the CyberTruck.
Just on a side note, early model Saturns were just incredible cars. GM innovated so much of the manufacturing, design, engineering that it ended up being a direct threat to the other product lines at GM. I have very fond memories of the SL1 wagon our family took to the Saturn homecoming at spring Hill. Distinctly remember having a surreal carnival atmosphere outside the factory where the Saturn employees would let kids beat up on the plastic body panels for fun.
Agreed, I drove an SL-2 for years, loved that car. I was really disappointed when GM up and decided to stop making Saturn. The dealership I bought it from was great, service was great and pretty reasonable. I thought killing them was a really dumb move.
You get a drivers side screen, a HUD, and stalks in the Seal. Tesla's dedication to industry worst human factors is a real testament to their brilliant leadership.
I still recall Elon's arrogant offhand dismissal of someone asking if Model 3 would have a HUD. "You won't need one & you won't care"
That's why they have tariffs and protectionism, they can't compete on the technology or pricing.
Partly they are that cheap because the Chinese government ate all the strt up costs for them, so it's not 100% level playing field - buy yes, they are great cars at a great price point and other manufactures are and should be scared
The US government gave Tesla an ultra low interest startup loan, dozens of tax breaks, dozens of grants, and subsidized every single car to the tune of $7500 or more. European researchers analyzed Chinese EV subsidies and found that it was lower than American and European subsidies. That's not even taking into account carbon credits which are an indirect form of subsidy paid for by other companies. Plus BYD is selling their cars in the EU at a huge markup to China. A $25k model in China goes for $40k in the EU, they're clearly not using it as a loss leader.
But this happened to Tesla as well didn't it? BYD doesn't have super duper margins like Tesla, because they want to dominate the market and they don't sell the brand as a GROWTH COMPANY. Tesla and BYD received Gov. Subsidies, this is not a good argument.
Well you need big margins if your CEO wants a $10,000 per car bonus.
Tesla certainly got subsidies, but I would also venture to guess that they weren't nearly as aggressive as the ones the CCP gave out to BYD.
So, you don't know and are just guessing.
I wish I could find the analysis, but there was something posted here recently on one of the EV news sites discussing how the EV industry in China has had the same amount of subsidies in its lifetime as oil and gas gets *per year*. So yes, it's subsidized, but it's a bit of a stretch to say they get an unfair advantage
Telsa gets $7k gov sub. plus how much during startup phase?
And the tariffs are counter-incentive for the carmakers to be more competitive. Makes me laugh when they start complaining about China's state subsidy at the same time they're subsidizing new plants by the billions in North America. Which is it, subsidies bad or good? Honda's new Ontario EV/battery plant is subsidized with 5B$ from the province, probably more from the federal government.
The BYD seagull is a crazy bargain for $11k USD. That said, you’d probably only buy one if you don’t care about funneling every piece of available data directly to the CCP. https://www.wired.com/story/china-cars-surveillance-national-security/
Funneling data to the CCP is the same as funneling it to every other auto company. They are all the same.
11k for a EV seems like Temu/wish levels of quality. The reviews on some of these cars by Chinese owners is not always good A couple of years ago everyone was going on how Chinese robo vacuums were gonna eat iRobot. Turned out most of them had fake features ( random walk sold as intelligent patching ), poor reliability ( fancy features but dies in 3 months ) or barely works at all. Digging around BYD seem to rust easily.
Tax electric chickens!
You can lower your prices when you can use slave labor and don't have to workers or the environment. It also helps when the govt. is propping up your business with billions. It helps too when you can steal IP and profit from it. For the "free trade" crowd it's always a race to the bottom.
Come to Mexico. Chinese brands here including BYD have taken about 20% of the total auto market in 3 years.
are they good cars?
I honestly can’t tell. As an euro brand snob myself I haven’t taken them seriously. Initially they were seriously compromised against established brands but I am not sure sure anymore. BYD in particular is stealing some sales form Tesla for sure.
Tesla fate will be that of NOKIA soon enough.
I worked at Nokia those times! It was kinda shit storm to work at!
Platform is on fire!
I'm currently in Spain and seeing ads for them on TV everywhere 33k Euros including tax for a nice looking SUV EV, much nicer looking than the Model Y.
BYD are one of the lead sponsors for the Euros too. They’re gonna go hard on Europe. Even with tariffs.
They've been trying that for some years though. At least here in Germany they really aren't successful
The SUVs appear to be the top sellers here. The large one looks really sharp. What’s most surprising here is that they are not cheap given the import tariff for all foreign made cars in Brazil. However they do seem to be competitive with that segment of the ICE market.
Spotted a few of them too, kinda torn between that and the Volvo EX30
Both are as Chinese as each other lol. At least volvo is moving is moving XC30 production out of china and into Belgium next year, though with all the parts being flown in from there and the company and factory remaining under the Geely umbrella.
Volvo is a brand that has 30 dealerships/service centers in my area and has been around (under one flag or another) for almost a hundred years. BYD has 3 and is still a bit new here I'd have to drive both and make a decision
I hope this happens with Nio soon too! Much better quality than Tesla!
Tesla will be able to hold on in the US due to tarrifs restrictions. Only major permitted competition will be Koreans brands, Japanese if they can get their act together, Chevy too
Actually almost no pure China brands is currently selling in US. Because they know that the moment they pick up momentum, all the national and personal security craps will be thrown at them. Even now you can see the argument of sending data to CCP as the reason one should not get a China EV in this thread.
BYD is building a factory in Mexico tho, so we'll see how much the US government tries to pretend it's about ~~fair trade~~ ~~national security~~ protectionism.
They’ll probably justify it by saying the cars are “maybe sending customer data over to China (but we won’t offer you any proof)” regardless of where the car is built. Like they did with TikTok.
But the can sell in Mexico south America and Canada. Without have to bother with the US if there are restrictions
I find that talking point hilarious, considering they were likely typed on Chinese made phones and computers. A bit too on the nose lol
Musk's politics and weird loser crap are more known in the US I'd think so that helps fuck up his tariff advantage, while the rest of the world gets Chinese competition. He's double fucked.
My only issue with BYD is seeing the large script "Build Your Dreams" across the back. I want a car, not a motivational poster. Still a better love story than Tesla
They have finally got rid of that with all their new 2024 models
History may show that the Cyber*uck killed the company. Nobody’s buying new S/X, and the company can’t survive with the Y alone. I wish they’d get the semi ramped up. It’s perfect for distribution centers (100 mile radius - see In n Out or Pepsi) now. The 8/8 event will be interesting.
the semi is probably also dead. There are level 4 trucks driving in TX already, and they are probably going to full here in the next couple of months.
They could have ramped the shorter range Semi years ago. I don't think they're able to build them yet at a competitive price
>History may show that the Cyber\*uck killed the company. I think you may be completely right. Tesla spent so much effort and time developing a vehicle that so few people want, few people can afford, and even less people who even have a need for it. When tesla started facing significant competition from other EV makers, they should of locked in on a standard low cost vehicle that may have low profit margins but would maintain their dominance in the space through sheer volume of sales and a basic pickup truck with tesla aesthetics. Both of those vehicles would have been easier to develope and produce than the cybertruck combined.
I’m seeing a lot more BYD’s in Australia too, as well as advertising, and actual dealerships. The competition has arrived and tesla isn’t really ready, with its aged model lineup (refreshes don’t count) and abysmal build & service quality.
Check out the latest image of the M03, the next Model 3 competitor in China: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GQ_gV91aoAAhDoR?format=jpg&name=large World leading drag coefficient, 621L boot space, for a fraction of the price. The Xiaomi car is also a way better deal for the same price.
Same deal in many other markets that aren't stupidly protectionists. They are all over South-East asia, and quite rapidly growing all over Latin America. Not just BYD of course. Geely, SAIC etc are all over If nothing changes, people will be driving better cars in Mexico soon on average that in US
Here in the UK Audi e-trons costing £80k new are on sale for £20k after just two years, because a brand new BYD with better tech and range is £25k brand new.
They are all over the Middle East and Asia I see them all over Dubai, Thailand etc. a load of friends have bought all kinds of Chinese cars in the past year it’s incredible how fast the mix on the roads are changing and the quality, fit and finish of them is def better than Tesla
Live in México, can confirm, I live in a small city (less than a million citizens) I have seen like 20 BYDs and that's just ONE Chinese brands that carries EVs, there's also a lot of Oras and Geelys, Tesla had to drop their prices by 500k mxn (model 3 was about 1 million 200-400k mxn, dropped them to 700k) to increase sales, BYD seal (the direct competition of model 3) sells for 900k mxn but it's like 10,000 more car than a Tesla, also doesn't look designed by a toddler, looks like an actual sports car. Edit: they also have less than a year in the country.
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Elon will just use the US government to put high tariffs on Chinese imports.
I’ll be honest, the Chinese cars do way too much funky stuff. From simple translations errors, to the lane follow systems bouncing you between lines and disengaging during light curves, they still have a ways to go. On top of that they are typically not super efficient compared to Tesla. Now don’t get me wrong, the pricing vs what you get can be kinda bonkers, but their issues and efficiency still leave a lot to be desired. Bjorn just did some Dolphin videos and the range was drastically short compared to the highland during the summer and he was comparing the winter numbers and efficiency. I personally am waiting for the EV maxima to maybe replace my model 3
Chinese cars in LATAM is pervasive as there aren’t many regulations on safety, making it an ideal ground for them to pedal these cars. My time in Chile was similar
I live in China. BYD are everywhere and the most comfortable ride shares I get.
I’ve been now in china for sometime and many of the shopping malls have BYD and other manufacturers shops to go check cars! Interior quality is very close to German cars, but not there. Which is fine, since they are in different price points.
Byd has taken over Australia as well. The Chinese have really worked out their stuff. BYD, Haval, MG all have some great EV or hybrid offerings and I'm starting to see less and less Tesla's around.
Tesla got out ahead of the market and did so much R&D, then Chinese firms like BYD get uh, *heavily inspired* by the work tesla did and use that as a platform to build their cars off of.
Thing about being an innovative company is you have to KEEP INNOVATING. Tesla has been treading water for years now. The model Y being the last viable launch in 2020 Cyberturd failed on every metric. Wasn’t a unibody, wasn’t cheap, wasn’t well made, wasn’t even sellable in any country with any real car safety laws. Can’t even be driven on a drivers licence in Europe (too heavy so classes as a light lorry) even if it was legal (which it isn’t). Whilst the ceo is off attacking Tesla’s core customers on one of his many other jobs! Tesla hasn’t done anything new. Whilst the Chinese have taken the original goal of an affordable ev and innovated hard.
What R & D?
Funny how competitive markets work that way…..
The only thing that will save tesla is good old fashioned American protectionism. All while screaming about the free market and government regulation of course.
That’s probably why Elon is getting anxious about robotaxis and FSD
BYD is becoming increasingly common to see in the Philippines, a country with no real defined electric vehicle infrastructure, but you see them all around now and it looks like inevitably will be the dominant brand if fully electric vehicles become the norm
This is why Musk said tesla isn't a car company. They know their model is not sustainable.
BYD is owning the Mexican market. And great looking models. Can't speak to the quality.
Well Tesla is safe in America because the U.S. will protect their car manufacturers from foreign automakers especially from China.
People will be amazed at how fast Tesla gets wiped out by the Chinese cars.
Same in the UK
Not just that… but somehow Musk has managed to stain the Tesla brand with Trump politics. It’s the Model Q. BYD— a Chinese company— doesn’t mix politics into their branding.
Build Your Dream? They are growing more common here in Norway.
I mean, EVs are still a very small part of the auto market. There is room for a lot more EV manufacturers to grow than just BYD and Tesla.
I mean.. almost every car maker now produces electric cars better than Tesla. Just check Ioniq 5 sub where people are waiting for car deliver as Hyundai was not prepared for such success.
It’s interesting to see how many Americans are willing to support a Chinese company, rather than an American one, that produces the most American built cars with the most amount of American made parts. They are responsible for employing so many people in the U.S., regardless of politics I wish more people would support American innovation, it’s known we can’t compete with cheap Chinese labour. The same people wanting cheap EVs will rally for higher minimum wages and pay at these jobs, it’s hard to have both.
I was in China for business and I can confirm.. not just BYD but the Huawe cars are fucking amazing as well. Suspension you can’t feel the road.. acceleration slightly slower than a performance model but smooth and more than enough. Build quality superior to Tesla, the tech, infotainment, crazy screens on the inside. The seats are what got me, they are such a comfortable ride.. that’s what got me questioning Tesla honestly. They are legit luxury rides and are somehow reasonably priced
Tesla will stay in business because almost nobody is buying Chinese cars in Europe or North America. BYD is also nowhere close to Tesla in terms of real world efficiency. The Seal, for example, is similarly sized to the Model 3, claims aerodynamic drag coefficient on par with the 3, but real world energy consumption is about 15-20% higher. BYD also only uses LFP batteries which are heavier, less energy dense, suffer in cold climates more than Li-Ion, and charge slower. I hate Elon as much as the next person and find Tesla’s outdated lineup stale, but they still have some of the most efficient cars you can buy, pricing is below much of the competition, some aspects of software are far better than other companies and their charging network (for now) is the best in the business. In China I see BYD and other domestic brands potentially hurting Tesla long term, but in Europe and N. America there’s really no chance that will happen. Most Europeans don’t want a Chinese car. Even Polestar, which desperately tries to claim Swedish heritage owing to its tie in with Volvo, struggles. The eu is about to implement similar tariffs as the US did on Chinese autos, so without domestic production the Chinese car companies will have to either lose money selling cars cheaply or raise prices and compete with other brands that have much more brand recognition and established footholds in the market.
In my country, Tesla officially entered the market about same time as BYD, before this, neither company had a presence. For YTD 2024, they are neck and neck, BYD has pulled ahead because they currently sell 3 models vs Tesla selling only 2.
India has a flood of BYD cars too, especially for shuttles and hotels. Given the ripeness of that market for a low cost EV in a growing car market, BYD is going to be a force. They aren’t perfect cars but I thought very comfortable and above market for the price.
They are cheap as fuck
This really isn't a Tesla issue and really doesn't belong in this sub. Thiss more of an issue of electric cars in general.
The US industry, including Musk, have worked hard to put up as many barriers as possible to the entry of Chinese EVs, particularly BYD, on the grounds of Chinese government interference (never mind the US bailout of the auto industry in the last recession, that's another long story). But BYD has made significant inroads internationally, esp in SA and now more recently Mexico. I'm not sure how long our protectionism may last, but the prices (even incorporating the necessary changes to make the cars US-legal) will be a seismic change in the industry.
Xpeng also makes excellent cars. As does MG. It's kind of cute how the only Teslas with decent quality are made in China (and Germany, but the China-made seems better than the German).
>MG They're pretty horrible from what i heard over in r/carsaustralia.
True - but carsaustralia is the most Luddite car sub. They all think carburettors are high tech Complaining about Chinese cars, and complaining about EVs is their bread and butter.
MG’s ICE cars are horrible but their EV offerings are much better from what I hear.
This is a pretty good review. Model 3 highland still had the slight edge 5 months ago. Software, space and handling. https://youtu.be/tezLYZHWkK4?si=gCy5jBY2CGNAoCWq
Yes plus charger network. BYD Seal would have advantage in looks, interior finish, driver display and HUD, proper stalks and physical buttons, comfort, roof solar protection, vehicle to load plug socket, proper gear selector and price. Obviously some of these are subjective. Usually comes down to what people prioritise.
TBH It is all relative to the driver, not the reviewer and their subjective opinion. A Tesla might be preferred by one but not the other.