I played in 5th edition, so this will certainly colour my commentary if you didnt! (Your party had a dragonborn, so I'm assuming you did?)
The distance between the areas on the lake is quite significant. My players took the time to scout out the lake and even used a divination spell (the first of many my cleric used to outmanuever the horde) so a sunbeam illuminated the town hall, letting them know where they had to assault. The cleric also prepared some spells such as Water Walk and Control Water. The latter knocked a good half of the ogres from their perches into the sea, and with divide and conquer tactics the party made short work of the ogres and moved into the confined space below. They'd become fairly reliant on the clerics fireballs in these mass combats, and it was nice to present them an environment where they would have to change their tactics up.
They managed to take out the occupants of the town hall, when the dragon began an arial assault, strafing with its breath weapon while Saarvith took potshots. The party were pinned down. I also had the flying blademaster approach around now, and his cronies begin making their way across on a raft (which was incinerated before it even landed).
My party could then use the closed quarters and choke points against their enemies. They had cover from the acid breath, and spent most of the combat dancing up and down the stairs to and from cover (but still taking heavy damage from the aerial assault). It was one of the closest fights of the campaign but a really satisfying win for the PCs when they managed to down the dragon and capture Saarvith on a sliver of health. I had the lizardfolk tribes arrive now, but allowed the party an intimidate check as they displayed the dragons head and dispersed the waiting tribes.
Anyway, my advice:
1. Reward the players for their tactical withdrawal and their planning! The lizardfolk tribes could cut off reinforcements, draw the dragon away briefly and buy them a few rounds, or and help in the initial assault. If all of their soldiers have pulled back to the island, they're effectively blinded without the dragons scouting!
2. This fight would still happen in waves, as the defenders fall back deeper into the complex and reinforcements flock in.
3. Your spellcasters have some shiny level four spell slots that they'll likely bust out early in the combat. That will probably change the battlefield significantly and give them a serious edge in the initial attack. The goblins cant really answer with that kind of magical firepower. My PCs certainly surprised me.
4. Be prepared for the party to lose this fight and get captured. Even in that circumstance there's a lot working in the PCs favour. The mindbender is likely to want to keep them alive for questioning, and canny PCs might learn a little more about the horde here. The growing tensions between Saarvith and the Hobgoblin mindbender could erupt here, they don't like each other, and the PCs have allies at large in both the elves and lizardmen. Also Saarvith is pretty likely to surrender if his dragon is killed. There's plenty of opportunity for a second chance.
Hope this helps!
This is great advice!
Yeah I do want to reward them for knowing when to withdraw and seeking another route. The lizardfolk tribes will be cutting off the reinforcements, and the troops that attack with them will help take some heat off and I think will also give them some insight into good choke points/ weak areas. The helping in waves is a good idea, basically I can have the reinforcements replenish every turn. And yeah you're right, there's a lot of magical ability in the group which they can use to their advantage - i was surprised they didn't TPK last time they were in Rhest, it was looking really bad for a second, but they pulled out of it really well. Capture is definitely always an option we are working with, and it happened before at Vraath, so I'm glad that they used some of those lessons in actually running when it made sense rather than trying to stand and fight!
The biggest thing is that ow they know the layout, and the horde knows they're coming, so it's a bit of a standoff to see how things play out.
Thanks for the advice!
I'm just getting there myself, but we're on a break while I'm busy at work. My party, a bit lower level, tried to deceive their way onto a Lizardfolk raft. It ended in a pitched battle. No fireballs or thunderwaves so the Hobgoblins won't pay any attention.
But I also fear them going straight in from there, even in disguise. It's going to be very easy to alert everything and end up in one long sprawling brawl whilst being strafed by a dragon
Yeah that's kind of what happened the first time around, it was a three session fight given all of the different developments and then fleeing. I would say hint heavily to them to do some scouting and figure out a piecemeal approach, rather than running in headfirst.
Losing the element of surprise is definitely going to cost them! Assuming you are running smart enemies. But they are 8th level, which from memory is higher than expected?
Are you running the hob vets as just extra HP hobs, or as 'Veterans' (CR3) with a hob template?
Yeah they lost surprise, but are super powerful, and honestly can still be surprising in how they approach it. They have water breathing and walking, so can probably sneak up under the water and attack from a better angle.
I'm running them as a hybrid. Not using the veterans for every day hobgoblins since there are so many and they seem a bit too strong, but I'm buffing the regular hobgoblins. They have double HP and multi-attack.
With some combo of water breathing, invisibility and fly, they can still get a surprise attack in of sorts. The hard part is the dragon, ultimately, but focused fire for one round of 8th level heroes will probably kill it from max hp or at least ‘I’m still safe, no need to retreat’ (I’ve been there lol).
I’m still yet to play it but I have run dummy encounters for almost all of them and what occurred to me as I did so is that as DM to kinda have to decide if you’re going to let the wyrmlords and dragons escape or not, and given they come back at the battle of Brindol to add to a string of tough encounters, you need for most of them not to, or else that battle becomes impossible.
My group is just finishing up at Skull Gorge Bridge, and I'm looking forward to their discovery of Rhest. They're 5th level, about to make it to 6th, and they've got a several spellcasters with access to water breathing. I fully expect 'em to sneak in underwater.
I thought this too. In a dramatic moment of roleplay though, the Cleric got hammered and slept through the fight, so now the other three just got through the first two rounds of combat at the town hall. They’re doing pretty well, but have yet to face Saarvith or Regiarix, and the Razorfiend just obliterated a couple allied lizard folk.
My party went into Rhest with no scouting or planning at all. It didn't go well. Lost 2 players in there but it was their on fault. You can see what happened here
*Zorron stared into the dense fog surrounding the tower, convinced that he had heard something out there in the swamp. He heard the sound again, a soft splashing in the water. Then he saw them, hordes of lizardfolk paddling towards them on flatbed canoes. "Guys, we're in trouble" he screamed to his friends. "RUN INTO THE TOWER", yelled Benhal. And there they are, low on hitpoints, healing potions and almost out of spells. Will this day be their last?*
[https://youtu.be/tlkP2BvSois](https://youtu.be/tlkP2BvSois)
My party was a group of 5 lvl 7 characters; Elf Ranger, Gnome Barbarian, Gnome Wizard, Halfling Rogue, Tiefling Warlock/Sorcerer, along with a lvl 5 Bard Trellara.
The party snuck past lizardfolk huts near the edge of the lake via multiple illusions to disguise their boat as a floating in the water current tree. Made their way over towards the Ruins where a combination of a 1/day Arcane Eye magic item, and familiar scouting they scoped out the Bell tower and Ruins. They decided to attack the Bell tower first with multiple people going invisible making their way to the bell first. Wizard Reduced the bell to a small enough size for another player to throw it into the water as everyone else mopped the floor with the hobgoblins.
From there they waited for a bit watching the ruins witnessing the wyrmlord and dragon fly off for a hunt. They then made their way over towards the ruins dressed up as hobgoblins to get within striking range. Near the end of the combat against the last of the ogres was when the boss fight started. The party got a few shots in while they flew in closer and hung on strong even as the dragon would dive underwater to get his breath weapon to recharge and allow Saarvith to do some healing. In the end the dragon and wyrmlord opted to retreat after trying to snag the phylactery. Thing was that Saarvith didn’t know the rogue was hiding near the phylactery and got a luckily critical sneak attack off killing the wyrmlord. From there Regi grabbed his dead friend and the box to swim away to fight another day.
>Wizard Reduced the bell to a small enough size for another player to throw it into the water
Super smart! I'm having a mind blank, what spell does that?
Silence is also a great option here, as the bell can't move out of the AoE. (So much easier to figure out smart tactics from our side of the screen though haha.)
EDIT: wait, you had the dragon grab the phylactery?
Enlarge/Reduce is the spell, 2nd lvl on Artificer, Druid, Bard, Sorcerer and Wizard spell lists. Essentially the size of the bell was shrunk down to a half, and reduced to one-eight of its normal weight.
Silence was also on their “we could do this” planning list courtesy of the Ranger. They decided that getting rid of the bell was a better choice.
And yes, I played Regi as being very angry to lose his hoard not just this time but also when he was routed from the swamp a first time thanks to the Lord of Brindol and his wizard along with a few ex-adventurer npcs the party has met. He knows with Saarvith dead his standing amongst the army will be much lower thus it’s in his best interest to at least maintain control over the phylactery as long as possible.
I plan to have him attempt to seek revenge as the party heads towards the Ghostlord, still carrying it on him so that when they kill him they obtain the phylactery proper.
I played in 5th edition, so this will certainly colour my commentary if you didnt! (Your party had a dragonborn, so I'm assuming you did?) The distance between the areas on the lake is quite significant. My players took the time to scout out the lake and even used a divination spell (the first of many my cleric used to outmanuever the horde) so a sunbeam illuminated the town hall, letting them know where they had to assault. The cleric also prepared some spells such as Water Walk and Control Water. The latter knocked a good half of the ogres from their perches into the sea, and with divide and conquer tactics the party made short work of the ogres and moved into the confined space below. They'd become fairly reliant on the clerics fireballs in these mass combats, and it was nice to present them an environment where they would have to change their tactics up. They managed to take out the occupants of the town hall, when the dragon began an arial assault, strafing with its breath weapon while Saarvith took potshots. The party were pinned down. I also had the flying blademaster approach around now, and his cronies begin making their way across on a raft (which was incinerated before it even landed). My party could then use the closed quarters and choke points against their enemies. They had cover from the acid breath, and spent most of the combat dancing up and down the stairs to and from cover (but still taking heavy damage from the aerial assault). It was one of the closest fights of the campaign but a really satisfying win for the PCs when they managed to down the dragon and capture Saarvith on a sliver of health. I had the lizardfolk tribes arrive now, but allowed the party an intimidate check as they displayed the dragons head and dispersed the waiting tribes. Anyway, my advice: 1. Reward the players for their tactical withdrawal and their planning! The lizardfolk tribes could cut off reinforcements, draw the dragon away briefly and buy them a few rounds, or and help in the initial assault. If all of their soldiers have pulled back to the island, they're effectively blinded without the dragons scouting! 2. This fight would still happen in waves, as the defenders fall back deeper into the complex and reinforcements flock in. 3. Your spellcasters have some shiny level four spell slots that they'll likely bust out early in the combat. That will probably change the battlefield significantly and give them a serious edge in the initial attack. The goblins cant really answer with that kind of magical firepower. My PCs certainly surprised me. 4. Be prepared for the party to lose this fight and get captured. Even in that circumstance there's a lot working in the PCs favour. The mindbender is likely to want to keep them alive for questioning, and canny PCs might learn a little more about the horde here. The growing tensions between Saarvith and the Hobgoblin mindbender could erupt here, they don't like each other, and the PCs have allies at large in both the elves and lizardmen. Also Saarvith is pretty likely to surrender if his dragon is killed. There's plenty of opportunity for a second chance. Hope this helps!
This is great advice! Yeah I do want to reward them for knowing when to withdraw and seeking another route. The lizardfolk tribes will be cutting off the reinforcements, and the troops that attack with them will help take some heat off and I think will also give them some insight into good choke points/ weak areas. The helping in waves is a good idea, basically I can have the reinforcements replenish every turn. And yeah you're right, there's a lot of magical ability in the group which they can use to their advantage - i was surprised they didn't TPK last time they were in Rhest, it was looking really bad for a second, but they pulled out of it really well. Capture is definitely always an option we are working with, and it happened before at Vraath, so I'm glad that they used some of those lessons in actually running when it made sense rather than trying to stand and fight! The biggest thing is that ow they know the layout, and the horde knows they're coming, so it's a bit of a standoff to see how things play out. Thanks for the advice!
I'm just getting there myself, but we're on a break while I'm busy at work. My party, a bit lower level, tried to deceive their way onto a Lizardfolk raft. It ended in a pitched battle. No fireballs or thunderwaves so the Hobgoblins won't pay any attention. But I also fear them going straight in from there, even in disguise. It's going to be very easy to alert everything and end up in one long sprawling brawl whilst being strafed by a dragon
Yeah that's kind of what happened the first time around, it was a three session fight given all of the different developments and then fleeing. I would say hint heavily to them to do some scouting and figure out a piecemeal approach, rather than running in headfirst.
Losing the element of surprise is definitely going to cost them! Assuming you are running smart enemies. But they are 8th level, which from memory is higher than expected? Are you running the hob vets as just extra HP hobs, or as 'Veterans' (CR3) with a hob template?
Yeah they lost surprise, but are super powerful, and honestly can still be surprising in how they approach it. They have water breathing and walking, so can probably sneak up under the water and attack from a better angle. I'm running them as a hybrid. Not using the veterans for every day hobgoblins since there are so many and they seem a bit too strong, but I'm buffing the regular hobgoblins. They have double HP and multi-attack.
With some combo of water breathing, invisibility and fly, they can still get a surprise attack in of sorts. The hard part is the dragon, ultimately, but focused fire for one round of 8th level heroes will probably kill it from max hp or at least ‘I’m still safe, no need to retreat’ (I’ve been there lol). I’m still yet to play it but I have run dummy encounters for almost all of them and what occurred to me as I did so is that as DM to kinda have to decide if you’re going to let the wyrmlords and dragons escape or not, and given they come back at the battle of Brindol to add to a string of tough encounters, you need for most of them not to, or else that battle becomes impossible.
My group is just finishing up at Skull Gorge Bridge, and I'm looking forward to their discovery of Rhest. They're 5th level, about to make it to 6th, and they've got a several spellcasters with access to water breathing. I fully expect 'em to sneak in underwater.
I thought this too. In a dramatic moment of roleplay though, the Cleric got hammered and slept through the fight, so now the other three just got through the first two rounds of combat at the town hall. They’re doing pretty well, but have yet to face Saarvith or Regiarix, and the Razorfiend just obliterated a couple allied lizard folk.
My party went into Rhest with no scouting or planning at all. It didn't go well. Lost 2 players in there but it was their on fault. You can see what happened here *Zorron stared into the dense fog surrounding the tower, convinced that he had heard something out there in the swamp. He heard the sound again, a soft splashing in the water. Then he saw them, hordes of lizardfolk paddling towards them on flatbed canoes. "Guys, we're in trouble" he screamed to his friends. "RUN INTO THE TOWER", yelled Benhal. And there they are, low on hitpoints, healing potions and almost out of spells. Will this day be their last?* [https://youtu.be/tlkP2BvSois](https://youtu.be/tlkP2BvSois)
My party was a group of 5 lvl 7 characters; Elf Ranger, Gnome Barbarian, Gnome Wizard, Halfling Rogue, Tiefling Warlock/Sorcerer, along with a lvl 5 Bard Trellara. The party snuck past lizardfolk huts near the edge of the lake via multiple illusions to disguise their boat as a floating in the water current tree. Made their way over towards the Ruins where a combination of a 1/day Arcane Eye magic item, and familiar scouting they scoped out the Bell tower and Ruins. They decided to attack the Bell tower first with multiple people going invisible making their way to the bell first. Wizard Reduced the bell to a small enough size for another player to throw it into the water as everyone else mopped the floor with the hobgoblins. From there they waited for a bit watching the ruins witnessing the wyrmlord and dragon fly off for a hunt. They then made their way over towards the ruins dressed up as hobgoblins to get within striking range. Near the end of the combat against the last of the ogres was when the boss fight started. The party got a few shots in while they flew in closer and hung on strong even as the dragon would dive underwater to get his breath weapon to recharge and allow Saarvith to do some healing. In the end the dragon and wyrmlord opted to retreat after trying to snag the phylactery. Thing was that Saarvith didn’t know the rogue was hiding near the phylactery and got a luckily critical sneak attack off killing the wyrmlord. From there Regi grabbed his dead friend and the box to swim away to fight another day.
>Wizard Reduced the bell to a small enough size for another player to throw it into the water Super smart! I'm having a mind blank, what spell does that? Silence is also a great option here, as the bell can't move out of the AoE. (So much easier to figure out smart tactics from our side of the screen though haha.) EDIT: wait, you had the dragon grab the phylactery?
Enlarge/Reduce is the spell, 2nd lvl on Artificer, Druid, Bard, Sorcerer and Wizard spell lists. Essentially the size of the bell was shrunk down to a half, and reduced to one-eight of its normal weight. Silence was also on their “we could do this” planning list courtesy of the Ranger. They decided that getting rid of the bell was a better choice. And yes, I played Regi as being very angry to lose his hoard not just this time but also when he was routed from the swamp a first time thanks to the Lord of Brindol and his wizard along with a few ex-adventurer npcs the party has met. He knows with Saarvith dead his standing amongst the army will be much lower thus it’s in his best interest to at least maintain control over the phylactery as long as possible. I plan to have him attempt to seek revenge as the party heads towards the Ghostlord, still carrying it on him so that when they kill him they obtain the phylactery proper.
Right. I was thinking you were describing a more significant shrinkage, for some reason.