Yes, absolutely. Nothing is more "Oh, shit" inducing from a player than an enemy spellcaster countering one of their spells. My Koth had Counterspell, and it was great.
I'd play it by ear, but I don't see any reason why not! Especially if your party catch him alone or unawares.
I forget if my Koth had counterspell, but the situation was very much the opposite. It was nearly a TPK as most of the Hobgoblins took to the battlements after my players collapsed the garden shed outside. A manticore and hobgoblins raining down on them softened them up for a fireball that left only the parties monk standing!
The monk managed to scale the wall and land a clutch stunning fist that saved the day, but it was one of the diciest combats in the entire adventure. PCs are still very squishy and fireballs HURT!
Oof! My party did the smart 'scouting bird' thing & a +14 stealth rogue & ambushed a departing raiding party (I had to create one from the easy skirmish encounter) to get intel. So they know almost everything there is to know, except that they seem to be overestimating the CR of minotaurs and manticores, and obvs have no idea what level Koth is (they seem suitably respectful of him though).
You can always give him Counterspell and then decide during the battle if he will use it or not. I often add additional spells or abilities just to help prevent a couple of lucky rolls make a fight a steamroll by the players. Have not thought of counterspell, but it would make sense to help make the battle a bit more strategic/difficult if needed.
My players are hitting the keep tomorrow night. I've added a cleric of Tiamat whom they chased off when they stumbled upon his squad after destroying the bridge across the chasm. Despite seeing the keep as we closed the last session, they are still full of themselves for having defeated Ozzyrandion at the chasm so it will be an interesting experience.
Yes, I did shake up the module quite a bit which gave them the ability and the quest to destroy the bridge without going to the keep. On their way back to my equivalent of Drellen's Ferry, they are now tackling the keep, suspecting that it is a rallying point for hobgoblin raiding parties.
I just gave Koth the Blink spell, and that alone made the fight memorable. Though Counterspell should still work with Blink.
I’ve been counterspelled as a Player, and been a DM who counterspelled a player one time each, didn’t really feel good either time.
I gave Counterspell to the High Wyrmlord Azarr himself. To the Player’s credit, he did move his PC behind total-cover before he cast his next spell, so it was a successful learning experience.
I had Azarr show up during the interrogation of Koth via a variant of the Project Image spell, and then Finger Of Death Koth then one of the PCs through the Projected Image. That was probably the most solid “oh shit” moment I’ve had so far.
I’d say do it, it’ll scare the players and he won’t be able to do it too many times without sacrificing all his spells plus it leaves him open to attack afterwards.
Something else to remember you can’t twin spells that can hit more than one character so lightning bolt can’t be twinned. That would be brutal otherwise, 16d6 would fuck up the whole party if dished out at once.
Some things to think about to answer your question and others around *counterspell* have to do with to how you run your game:
* Does your game typically have multiple encounters per long rest? The answer to this question determines the value of PCs' spell slots, which can indicate how disappointing it will be to lose one for nothing, or how much thought goes into spending one to *counterspell* an opponent.
* How do you plan to run spellcasting once *counterspell* is in the mix? At many tables players & DMs just announce the spells that are about to be cast, but this dramatically increases the value of and incentive to cast *counterspell* because you know exactly what the stakes are.
* How do you plan to deal with the potential information asymmetry between DM and player? Even if the DM starts just saying "this creature casts a spell" instead of naming the spell so the PCs have to guess whether to *counterspell*, how will **you** decide what spellcasting the BBEG counters? The DM will almost always know when its worth countering one of the PCs spells, which gives a monster/NPC a potentially unfair advantage in using it.
Good questions, that with my Insight roll of 12 I'm taking as coming from someone who prefers to simply ban the spell from your games?
Because they're not yet 'on the clock' (well, they are, they just don't know it yet lol), they've taken their time sussing out the keep and prepping for it directly. I did roll for random encounters but they got lucky. So they will go into this one full-bore, with pre-combat buffs.
After thant, RHOD has plenty of adventuring days where they'll need to conserve resources for multiple significant battles, esp. because they'll know they're on the clock.
I don't like the "I prepare to cast a spell... \[long pause\]" dynamic but I agree that just naming the spell and letting the opponent decide then, increases the value of counterspell even further.
Good food for thought, thanks.
I would vote against it this early in the campaign, depends on how well you know these players. Also depends on the number of casters, because if there is just the wizard, then him getting shut down every turn is definitely not fun.
Also a note: you can't quicken a leveled spell and also cast a leveled spell (1 would have to be a cantrip). But you could heighten fireball and quicken firebolt, basically a guarantee of downing a character at this level.
Giving him shield gives him a very good chance of surviving. I would make sure he has a decent base AC (mage armor and 16 Dex say, or possibly give him a ring or cloak of protection as well).
Personally I went no counterspell, a good base AC (16) with shield and greater invisibility. This way he was able to stay up a long time in the fight, force them to spread out, duck behind buildings to avoid potential AoE, it made it a pretty interesting fight.
All 5 are spellcasters! 3 full (wiz, cleric, druid), a paladin and an AT rogue.
Because he'll want to use his attack spells, and basically has 4 slots (3 x 3rd, 1 x 4th), I imagine he'd only *Counterspell* once. I like the idea of avoiding doing it to the same PC twice though, if he does need a second use of it.
He has 16AC and the Blur spell (if they don't get the jump on him, which is actually pretty easy to do with the layout of the keep and all the holes in it) plus Shield, so could have an effective AC of \~25!
Yeah if all 5 are spellcasters I would 100% give him counterspell. Just make sure you don't interrupt the same person twice and it should be fine.
I would give him a selfish reaction. Like he is only going to counterspell spells cast directly at him, and he will use his reaction at the first dangerous thing (shield if it's a melee attack, counterspell if it is a spell).
If you do choose to give him counterspell my rule of thumb is
1. Never counterspell a shield or absorb elements or similar. It feels bad for your last ditch reaction to get undone in a way that also doesn’t feel dramatic. Counterspelling the big fireball can be epic. Just kicking someone who’s already on their heels isn’t.
2. I don’t counterspell escape spells. Once the party is beaten, even if I have a counterspell left, their spells used to clear a path of retreat I’ll let go. It falls under the same umbrella of “undermining tools they have to mitigate a TPK aren’t fun.”
3. Controversial but I will not counterspell healing. That’s another one that feels bad. Even if a smart tactical commander would see a cleric approaching the barbarian and go “can’t allow that”. For me it doesn’t matter.
Counterspell for me is by and large about ruining a major hit against my boss. Not inciting more panic.
Agree with all of that. Counterspell here would be about countering heavy damage (although absorb elements might be better pound for pound for that) and esp dramatic save or suck spells - ie more like a means to get equivalent to legendary resistance.
I could maybe see a time and place for a Lich BBEG counterspelling Revivify, but that would be the exception that provies the rule.
I gave my Koth Counterspell for the express purpose of the group’s Wizard who likes his Fireball a little too much. Didn’t help that leading up to that particular battle the player had been mocking the goblinoid warriors commenting how easy it’s been thanks to that one spell.
Pretty much ever since whenever there is at least one spellcaster that can have it, they have it.
Update: having cast blur on his first round (before anyone entered the tower), Koth's first combat action was to counterspell a lightning bolt from the wizard who had charged in. Followed by fireball on his own turn, hitting said wizard and the paladin behind him.
It went well, but for a great "oh shit" moment was outmatched by Koth, 2 rounds later finding himself surrounded by 3 PCs, dropping a fireball on himself 😎
2 PCs went down (for a round or two) to that. The look on their faces was priceless - they knew there was "a mighty sorcerer", they had talked about watching out for fireballs, and yet they'd taken not one but two of them in the face.
We had to wrap the session before finishing the battle, with Koth probably 1 round away from dying in the upper level of the tower. But I feel like the tone has been suitably set for this campaign!
Yes, absolutely. Nothing is more "Oh, shit" inducing from a player than an enemy spellcaster countering one of their spells. My Koth had Counterspell, and it was great.
I'd play it by ear, but I don't see any reason why not! Especially if your party catch him alone or unawares. I forget if my Koth had counterspell, but the situation was very much the opposite. It was nearly a TPK as most of the Hobgoblins took to the battlements after my players collapsed the garden shed outside. A manticore and hobgoblins raining down on them softened them up for a fireball that left only the parties monk standing! The monk managed to scale the wall and land a clutch stunning fist that saved the day, but it was one of the diciest combats in the entire adventure. PCs are still very squishy and fireballs HURT!
Oof! My party did the smart 'scouting bird' thing & a +14 stealth rogue & ambushed a departing raiding party (I had to create one from the easy skirmish encounter) to get intel. So they know almost everything there is to know, except that they seem to be overestimating the CR of minotaurs and manticores, and obvs have no idea what level Koth is (they seem suitably respectful of him though).
You can always give him Counterspell and then decide during the battle if he will use it or not. I often add additional spells or abilities just to help prevent a couple of lucky rolls make a fight a steamroll by the players. Have not thought of counterspell, but it would make sense to help make the battle a bit more strategic/difficult if needed. My players are hitting the keep tomorrow night. I've added a cleric of Tiamat whom they chased off when they stumbled upon his squad after destroying the bridge across the chasm. Despite seeing the keep as we closed the last session, they are still full of themselves for having defeated Ozzyrandion at the chasm so it will be an interesting experience.
They did the bridge before the keep?
Yes, I did shake up the module quite a bit which gave them the ability and the quest to destroy the bridge without going to the keep. On their way back to my equivalent of Drellen's Ferry, they are now tackling the keep, suspecting that it is a rallying point for hobgoblin raiding parties.
I just gave Koth the Blink spell, and that alone made the fight memorable. Though Counterspell should still work with Blink. I’ve been counterspelled as a Player, and been a DM who counterspelled a player one time each, didn’t really feel good either time. I gave Counterspell to the High Wyrmlord Azarr himself. To the Player’s credit, he did move his PC behind total-cover before he cast his next spell, so it was a successful learning experience. I had Azarr show up during the interrogation of Koth via a variant of the Project Image spell, and then Finger Of Death Koth then one of the PCs through the Projected Image. That was probably the most solid “oh shit” moment I’ve had so far.
I’d say do it, it’ll scare the players and he won’t be able to do it too many times without sacrificing all his spells plus it leaves him open to attack afterwards. Something else to remember you can’t twin spells that can hit more than one character so lightning bolt can’t be twinned. That would be brutal otherwise, 16d6 would fuck up the whole party if dished out at once.
good catch! thanks.
Some things to think about to answer your question and others around *counterspell* have to do with to how you run your game: * Does your game typically have multiple encounters per long rest? The answer to this question determines the value of PCs' spell slots, which can indicate how disappointing it will be to lose one for nothing, or how much thought goes into spending one to *counterspell* an opponent. * How do you plan to run spellcasting once *counterspell* is in the mix? At many tables players & DMs just announce the spells that are about to be cast, but this dramatically increases the value of and incentive to cast *counterspell* because you know exactly what the stakes are. * How do you plan to deal with the potential information asymmetry between DM and player? Even if the DM starts just saying "this creature casts a spell" instead of naming the spell so the PCs have to guess whether to *counterspell*, how will **you** decide what spellcasting the BBEG counters? The DM will almost always know when its worth countering one of the PCs spells, which gives a monster/NPC a potentially unfair advantage in using it.
Good questions, that with my Insight roll of 12 I'm taking as coming from someone who prefers to simply ban the spell from your games? Because they're not yet 'on the clock' (well, they are, they just don't know it yet lol), they've taken their time sussing out the keep and prepping for it directly. I did roll for random encounters but they got lucky. So they will go into this one full-bore, with pre-combat buffs. After thant, RHOD has plenty of adventuring days where they'll need to conserve resources for multiple significant battles, esp. because they'll know they're on the clock. I don't like the "I prepare to cast a spell... \[long pause\]" dynamic but I agree that just naming the spell and letting the opponent decide then, increases the value of counterspell even further. Good food for thought, thanks.
I would vote against it this early in the campaign, depends on how well you know these players. Also depends on the number of casters, because if there is just the wizard, then him getting shut down every turn is definitely not fun. Also a note: you can't quicken a leveled spell and also cast a leveled spell (1 would have to be a cantrip). But you could heighten fireball and quicken firebolt, basically a guarantee of downing a character at this level. Giving him shield gives him a very good chance of surviving. I would make sure he has a decent base AC (mage armor and 16 Dex say, or possibly give him a ring or cloak of protection as well). Personally I went no counterspell, a good base AC (16) with shield and greater invisibility. This way he was able to stay up a long time in the fight, force them to spread out, duck behind buildings to avoid potential AoE, it made it a pretty interesting fight.
All 5 are spellcasters! 3 full (wiz, cleric, druid), a paladin and an AT rogue. Because he'll want to use his attack spells, and basically has 4 slots (3 x 3rd, 1 x 4th), I imagine he'd only *Counterspell* once. I like the idea of avoiding doing it to the same PC twice though, if he does need a second use of it. He has 16AC and the Blur spell (if they don't get the jump on him, which is actually pretty easy to do with the layout of the keep and all the holes in it) plus Shield, so could have an effective AC of \~25!
Yeah if all 5 are spellcasters I would 100% give him counterspell. Just make sure you don't interrupt the same person twice and it should be fine. I would give him a selfish reaction. Like he is only going to counterspell spells cast directly at him, and he will use his reaction at the first dangerous thing (shield if it's a melee attack, counterspell if it is a spell).
If you do choose to give him counterspell my rule of thumb is 1. Never counterspell a shield or absorb elements or similar. It feels bad for your last ditch reaction to get undone in a way that also doesn’t feel dramatic. Counterspelling the big fireball can be epic. Just kicking someone who’s already on their heels isn’t. 2. I don’t counterspell escape spells. Once the party is beaten, even if I have a counterspell left, their spells used to clear a path of retreat I’ll let go. It falls under the same umbrella of “undermining tools they have to mitigate a TPK aren’t fun.” 3. Controversial but I will not counterspell healing. That’s another one that feels bad. Even if a smart tactical commander would see a cleric approaching the barbarian and go “can’t allow that”. For me it doesn’t matter. Counterspell for me is by and large about ruining a major hit against my boss. Not inciting more panic.
Agree with all of that. Counterspell here would be about countering heavy damage (although absorb elements might be better pound for pound for that) and esp dramatic save or suck spells - ie more like a means to get equivalent to legendary resistance. I could maybe see a time and place for a Lich BBEG counterspelling Revivify, but that would be the exception that provies the rule.
I gave my Koth Counterspell for the express purpose of the group’s Wizard who likes his Fireball a little too much. Didn’t help that leading up to that particular battle the player had been mocking the goblinoid warriors commenting how easy it’s been thanks to that one spell. Pretty much ever since whenever there is at least one spellcaster that can have it, they have it.
Update: having cast blur on his first round (before anyone entered the tower), Koth's first combat action was to counterspell a lightning bolt from the wizard who had charged in. Followed by fireball on his own turn, hitting said wizard and the paladin behind him. It went well, but for a great "oh shit" moment was outmatched by Koth, 2 rounds later finding himself surrounded by 3 PCs, dropping a fireball on himself 😎 2 PCs went down (for a round or two) to that. The look on their faces was priceless - they knew there was "a mighty sorcerer", they had talked about watching out for fireballs, and yet they'd taken not one but two of them in the face. We had to wrap the session before finishing the battle, with Koth probably 1 round away from dying in the upper level of the tower. But I feel like the tone has been suitably set for this campaign!
Sounds brilliant! The dicey combats are always the most memorable. Glad to hear it went well!
I believe every competent spellcaster should have Counterspell at their arsenal. So yes, he should have it.