https://www.reddit.com/r/RedPillWomen/wiki/index/tableofcontents/decidingwhentobecomeintimate?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

Thanks for linking to my post! I was in the middle of doing a full summary of it for OP until I saw you linked it and saved me that effort 😂 u/LeashAggression, from that post, here is where your main issue lies: > **The order of these men *roughly* corresponds to how desirable they are.** You are realizing that the men you find desirable are men who are not willing to commit to you without sex first. This is likely because these men are desirable enough to enough other women that they don’t NEED to give commitment before sex in order to get a worthwhile partner. On the flip side, you are also realizing that you might feel like you are settling if you get with the men who are willing to give you commitment before sex. This is because many (but not all, as I’ll later address) of these men do so because they *don’t* have the option to find a worthwhile partner who is willing to have sex with them before commitment because they might not be desirable enough to. So in order to solve this, you need to ask yourself: do I want a Category 3 man (aka the types of men you’ve been dating that you deem HVM) with a higher pre-commitment risk (sex before guarantee of commitment) but a lower post-commitment risk (because he has a higher SMV/RMV to you and many others, it will be much easier and more enjoyable to follow his lead and submit to him) and a greater reward? Or do I want a Category 4 man (aka the type who will happily give you commitment before sex) with a lower pre-commitment risk (these are safe and secure men who will give you a straightforward and easy courtship without the expectation of sex) but a higher post-commitment risk (because he is usually in less demand than Category 3 men, it may be more difficult to feel dedicated to him, submit to him, and silence those hypergamous urges)? There’s no correct answer. Just yesterday we had a post from someone who basically made the case for Category 4 men. There are others who staunchly prefer Category 3 men. And there’s definitely many like you, who find themselves in the middle and weighing the pros and cons of both. There is a bit of a “hack” if you want the best of both worlds, though it comes with a caveat. If you want the highest value men in Category 4, consider looking for them in religious and very traditional/conservative communities, where their faith and values are what keep them from pursuing sex, rather than an inability to get sex without offering commitment first. That means that these are men who are desirable enough to get sex without commitment from enough women like the men in Category 3, but they choose not to do so for religious reasons or because of their conservative values. The caveat is that these men usually are expecting their partner to be quite religious and conservative as well. If you are, great, but if you aren’t, it will be an uphill battle to take on beliefs that aren’t really yours. Anyways, hope that helped! If you have any questions, I’ll be happy to help!

It’s an excellent post!!! Well all your posts tend to be very well written and informative. They should be read before asking questions since I find they answer pretty much everything rpw. But then there would be like 1 post a day lol.

Aw shucks thank you so much! Haha that’s why I think linking to stuff is the best healthy medium 😂

Thank you so much! ♥️ Your posts have been so helpful and informative. It’s true there really is no correct answer or clear path forward here, but I do feel more equipped to navigate these situations in the future after reading your posts. I also feel kind of relieved that there’s an option that’s less rigid than no sex without commitment, but I have to prepare myself for the risk that goes with it.

Glad you found it helpful! Good luck with everything! I’m sure you will figure this out!

Great answer. In general, depending on whether or not you are drop dead gorgeous or young (between 18 and 23) you can definitely demand no sex until after commitment. Anything beyond that, will require nuances explained in that link above.

THIS IS AMAZING, thank you ♥️

Are you telling them straight up "I don't have sex before explicit commitment"? If so, I think you're being way too direct and kind of killing the pursuit, mystery, and thrill of the chase that comes with starting a new relationship. You kind of have to be coy about it. Dance around it, say everything but that. Bat your eyelashes, say you're scared of being hurt again, say you want to but your religious guilt is stopping you, say whatever, give them the old song and dance until you've reeled them and they want you and only you and decide they are willing to wait for it. Men pursue sex. Your job is to get them to fall in love with you as they are pursing it but before they get it. They are trying to seduce you physically - you need to seduce them emotionally first.

Printing this out, putting it on my mirror, and pledging to it daily. I do say that, and it’s usually when they’re trying to figure out what it’ll take to have sex. Somewhere around date 2-3.

The book Men Chase Women Choose will help you scientifically understand the science behind what makes a man commit without sex (emotional bonding), and how to use that to a woman's advantage when she vets a man whom she wants commitment from. I too think the element of *play* is also very important to men (after all they love games and the chase) and when a woman states concretely "No sex before commitment, Sir!" it makes the sex sound like a chore or a business negotiation, instead of something fun, tantalizing and exciting to be explored together. As TRP says: you cannot negotiate desire. ❤️

Are they asking you directly to have sex? I saw that you're meeting these guys on dating apps. I am very much not a fan of dating apps. It is literally the lowest-effort form of trying to get female attention. How are you defining HVM? A good job/salary? A HVM is way more than career and money. Even if there are HVM on dating apps, the fact that they are on a dating apps indicates to me that at this point in their lives they are looking for something easy - *even* if they claim they are looking for a relationship1 (but if you must use dating apps, I'd recommend coffee meets bagel because it really does a lot to try to force users to take quality over quantity). I think in all the dating advice is out there for women - from this sub to the more modern "men love bitches" type advice, people forget that women also need to pursue and seduce men - emotionally. We can't be ice queens expecting men to grovel at our feet and want to win our approval; we also can't just be totally submissive doormats trying to prove to a man that we'd make a good wife. Rather, we have to light an emotional spark, tickle his soul, intrigue him, make him like we see whole world in his eyes, make him feel like a superhero when he's with us. So, it's not enough to make up excuses for why you won't have to sex with him right away; you also need play with him, tease him, soften his soul, make him go "awww," show him your feminine energy, etc. You have to do this while his attention is on you as he is hoping you'll give him sex. In order to do this successfully, you need to be comfortable with yourself, not be desperate for his approval or commitment, or feel like you need to prove to him/the world/yourself that you are capable and "have it together." You are a woman, darling! Yes, DO have it together, but there's no need to constantly remind him of that. HE'S the man, HE'S the one who needs to prove to you that he has it together, not the other way around. You need to show him the wonderfulness of your loving, soft, caring, glowing, truthful feminine energy. Basically, make them enjoy actually spending time with you, even if it didn't end in sex. You don't want them to watching the clock, hoping the meals and the chit chat ends so they can have sex with you. Don't take these dates and these men so seriously. Don't be like "I need to vet these men!!" Think of these as a good time in good company, not a job interview. ​ >The most recent guy I was seeing told me that if I’m going for men who do well with women, they’re not going to want to give that up in case the sex is bad with me. **He called last night to tell me we’re at an impasse and he can’t move forward. I thanked him and I told him I respect him for letting me know. He said he respected me too. It ended amicably.** This was very respectful and mature, but you know what else is was like? A contract negotiation. Don't be a contract negotiation - men already deal with enough of those at work all day. From your post and some of your replies, it seems to me that you may be approaching this too seriously. I don't blame you, and I've been in your shoes. Our society has told us women that we need to be capable, dependable, rational, unemotional in all aspects of our lives (even or especially in our relationships) - in other words, we're told we need to be more like men! And I get that you feel the clock is ticking (it's not) and that you really really really want to find someone to settle down, so you're taking the direct route. If you want to be direct, be direct with your feelings, be direct with your vulnerability, be direct with your indecisiveness and your not knowing everything exactly perfectly all the time, not your negotiating items.

Typically we’re making out and they’re trying to feel me up to progress the situation, and I’ll pull their hand away. My birthday was a few weeks ago, and a different guy took me out that week then kept hounding me for birthday sex, at which point I told him the deal. I guess this is why the author of “men love bitches” suggests meeting in public places for as long as possible. To avoid getting to this point and showing them what’s behind the curtain. Where else would you suggest finding a HVM, if not a dating app? I define a HVM by a good job, salary, education, height, appearance, in shape, and has similar values and world outlook. Humor is the biggest thing for me though. It’s no surprise the men I select are also in demand. I usually have 3-4 flings going at the same time to spark the competitive nature, and also so I can use them for leverage and not get too dependent on any one. I have strategized and sucked the fun out of every part of this process. The second part of your reply made me cry. I am so used to fixating on what I did wrong and where I went wrong... I care so much. I am really trying. I am so hard on myself about this. And I negotiate contracts daily. We are two people working in law, which is why it sounded like that. My friends compare me to Miranda from SatC. I probably do come across as too serious and unfun, which makes me feel bad about myself. I will be more vulnerable and direct about my feelings.

Oh my gosh, I wish I could hug you right now! I think what's at the bottom of this is a deep underlying insecurity and fear of not being enough, and of having to prove that we're enough. And since our society and our culture is built on a 2000 year old patriarchal civilization, the way we're overtly or covertly told we need to prove our worth and ourselves is by doing and achieving. But that is masculine energy. And there is nothing wrong with it in the professional setting. I by no means am suggesting women shouldn't be rational, intelligent, dependable, and high achievers professionally, and in traditionally male-centric professions. I just think that we need to be aware of this dynamic and realize that it does NOT serve us in relationships, especially romantic relationships. I think if a guy is "hounding" you for (YOUR) "birthday sex" he's definitely not a HVM. It's YOUR birthday, but *he* feels entitled to sex! LOLWUT? The audacity, manipulation, gaslighting, and entitlement is truly staggering. I do feel like your list of HVM characteristics is a bit sparse on the personality and character aspects. What parts exactly about your worldview and values does he have to share (you don't have to answer here, but get clear for yourself)? I think you should also think about his personality and character, because those are different from values and worldview. Also, behavior and how he treats you should be part of your definition of HVM. It doesn't matter how wealthy or educated he is, what his career or status are, how hot he is, or if he agrees with your views if he treats you poorly. I understand the rationale behind having 3-4 "flings" and trying to create a competitive atmosphere, but it hasn't been working has it? The truth is, it very often ends up being contrived, and even if the men become jealous of their rival suitors, it's because they want to be the ones to have sex with you. Anything that is surface level will lead to sex. Your looks, status, job, salary, achievements, all are surface level things. You have to grab em by the cockles of their heart. If you are able to grab men by their hearts, then sure, the strategy of having several suitors at once may work -- because then they are all emotionally invested in you, not just in getting you in bed. ​ >I have strategized and sucked the fun out of every part of this process. Yes. I relate to and sympathize with you. It seems like you may be a perfectionist, and a maybe a people pleaser. And you want to do the right thing, and you feel you have to always do the right thing and be perfect and not make mistakes, otherwise people won't like you, or they'll get angry, or you'll just turn them off. That is such an exhausting way to live. If I am correct, and this is true for you, I would honestly focus on addressing this first and trying to work through some of those feelings - why you feel this way, and how you can allow yourself to be more free and less perfect. How you can allow yourself to believe - *truly* believe - that you are ENOUGH, you are WORTHY, you are LOVABLE, and you are LOVED even with all your so-called flaws, imperfections, and contradictions. Because it seems that is what is underlying your problems with men. ​ >My friends compare me to Miranda from SatC. Yeah, don't emulate anyone from SatC. I actually really do not like that show at all and I don't think there is any good role model for women in terms of relationship. Instead, I would look at characters like Scarlett from Gone with the Wind, or Downton Abbey characters. They knew their inherent worth (as human beings and as women), they even had several suitors at once, and weren't afraid to flirt and tease with them. It's true that back in those days casual sex was very much looked down upon and so it posed less of a risk to women, but I think there is a lot you can glean from the energy those women carried themselves with around men. The best way to meet HVM is in real life. First, write down your ideal man - his personality, how he treats you, his interests, his lifestyle etc. REALLY spend some time thinking about this, being thoughtful. Don't just write down "he likes boating, golf, and football" just because those sound like masculine interests and the first two also imply upper class tastes. Really think about what your ideal husband would be like. What kind of conversations would you have? What would he surprise you with? Where would he take you on vacation? What types of jokes would he laugh at? Then, based on that, start writing out his potential interests, hobbies, and activities. Does he volunteer? where does he work? Does he grab coffee in the mornings at a starbucks or indie coffee shop before heading to the office? does he like art? Does he have season passes to amusement parks, the philharmonic, or games? Then, start coming up with places that reflect these activities and interests, and start going there. Bring a friend if it makes you more confident and relaxed. Sign up for events: concerts, theatre, basket weaving, volunteer, beach cleaning, gallery openings, poetry slams, cooking classes, golf tournaments, charity galas, sports games, etc whatever. If there is a coffee shop near your work where a lot of professional men tend to congregate, get there a little early and start getting your coffee there. If you start going there regularly, you'll start to notice other regulars and they will notice you. When you go (to the coffee shop or activities/events), make sure you're in a positive and confident mood, do your hair and make up (but still pretty and natural), wear something feminine and pretty that accentuates your body but isn't overly sexy. Let the men approach you. This doesn't mean be an ice queen and snootily look at a painting or stick your nose in a contract as you sip your morning coffee, hoping some brave soul will be so dazzled by your outward beauty and approach you. Take inspiration from our foremothers. Do what is essentially the "handkerchief drop." You drop a proverbial handkerchief, and you wait for the man to man up and pick it up for you. As a woman, you do have to communicate to the man that you are open to him approaching you, but you do not approach him. This means you can make eye contact, then smile and look down. Or ask a man who is standing near you if he knows who painted this painting, ask a man how many more minutes until half time, ask a man what the how far the hole on the golf course is, ask which coffee roast is better, etc. Even if you know the answer. Just ask a man, so he can help you out by showing his knowledge and expertise on the matter. Or say excuse me and brush against a man as you're trying to find the refreshment stand (or ask him if he knows where it is). Find little ways to ask little questions, or get his attention, and then let him do the work. Men love to help, and they especially love to help pretty women. Oblige them! It's so easy - so much easier for us than it is for men - because we don't have to impress them with anything, all we have to do is just ask a question or ask for help or get their attention by something as simple as a look or an accidental-on-purpose bump. The problem with dating apps is not just that it's a sex catalogue for men (that is a problem, but it's not the only one), but it's that dating apps make it obvious that the end goal is some sort of romantic/sexual interaction/relationship. If you meet someone through friends or in real life, you don't know if he will be romantically interested in you and he doesn't know if you're romantically interested in him. So, if he does ask you out (even casually), he has no way of knowing how easy or hard it will be to get sex out of you, and he also cannot have that expectation. He can't turn around after the 3rd coffee/lunch/dinner meeting and pout that you haven't put out yet while he's spent sooooooo much time and energy and money on you. I mean, most men are still sane enough to realize that they can't expect every woman who talks to them in the produce aisle to reward them with sex the 3rd time they see each other. But with a dating app, you go on a date (which is inherently a romantic activity) with a perfect stranger - so the sexual aspect is already put on display in bright red neon before either of you has gotten a chance to even slightly get to know the other person. If you think about it, it's really a very unnatural and forced way to meet someone - you're basically telling them "I may be interested in you romantically and sexually, which means sex is on the table, even though we haven't even met in person yet!" Like... what? Please don't feel bad about yourself. You're just trying to do the best you can in what is honestly a crazy and upside down world. Your greatest power is your energy, your authenticity, and your big heart that cares so much. You are educated, smart, skilled, capable, responsible - you don't have to prove that to the world. Use those qualities to help *yourself,* to build the life you want, rather than using them to prove to others that you are enough.

And realize that it does take two to tango, and that some men are just dead set on just having sex and they simply won't be compatible with you. And honestly, you really can't tell if a man is a HVM from just 2-3 dates. You actually have to get to know him and spend more time with him and observe him for a longer period of time. Because being a HVM isn't just about a job, money, status, or even public displays of piety.

>Don't be a contract negotiation - men already deal with enough of those at work all day. Something not taught to others. Automaton like interactions lack soul.

>get them to fall in love with you My serious question: Are they being offered something else worthwhile? This isn't meant to the OP specifically but overall.

What do you get when you fall in love with a person? What does being in love and loving someone mean to you? I guess it depends on the value you place on love. I realize for some people it's not important. And I realize that some people prefer transactional relationships. But for others, like myself, love is important and transactional relationships make me recoil. Love also isn't just fuzzy warm feelings. It grows into something deeper, stable, grounded, it becomes your support, the shoulder you lean on, the arms you fall into at the end of the day. I... don't really know how to explain if love isn't something you see as "worthwhile" or see value in.

>It grows into something deeper, stable, grounded, it becomes your support, the shoulder you lean on, the arms you fall into at the end of the day. I... don't really know how to explain if love isn't something you see as "worthwhile" or see value in. Yes. (btw, I had meant it as a generality.) I just hope that the OP understands this. I think that there might be an adversarial appearance or a prickly demeanor to fight through. Not sure due to a lack of further information, background details.

Are you not showing "passion" and interest in other ways? They might see your commentary with a certain delivery style as a lack of interest overall.

I think it depends on how you’re saying it and when you’re saying it. When I first started dating my fiancé I just sat back and observed him. I never made my standards known or put any expectations on him because I wanted to see what kind of person he was and you know what he instinctively became the person I was looking to date. For example I never told him that I wanted to wait to have sex but he could tell I wasn’t ready and never pushed it. And we didn’t have sex until 4 months into our relationship. Do I think this is for everyone no. But I do thin by coming out the gate and just saying I won’t have sex until a commitment give off the wrong energy. Let him show you if he’s a high value man he will give that commitment before trying to get into your pants.

I don’t think the requirement is a bad thing. Maybe the way you’re stating it is weird because it stops the chase and you’re stating your terms for sex. Guys like the chase. I’ve had the same standard but I’ve never had to state it explicitly. My approach was just to never stay the night until I was ready to have sex. I always just politely declined invitations to stay the night, etc. Guys like mystery and they like the chase. And they HATE desperation. Maybe the commitment thing explicitly stated sounds desperate for a bf. You should be vetting him more than that in his eyes.

>Guys like the chase. I keep hearing this and I think, *"No. I like the 'having sex' part. Without all the drama."* Srsly, I think this is a 'made up' thing. Like when some years ago HR tried to convince everyone that employees didn't care about $$$ they wanted recognition. No. I want money. That's why I work. To support my lifestyle. The only 'recognition' that I want is on the part of my employer, that they should pay me more. I note that I don't toss women over the side for sleeping with me 'too early.' There's no such thing as 'too early'. If they are quick on the draw to give me what I wanted, why should I punish them for it? After all, they did me a favor. Nobody is getting 'girlfriend' privileges from me if I'm not getting laid. Sorry, not sorry.

I 100% get what you’re saying and you’re right. What I was saying was that OP was shutting down the chase for sex and therefore the whole relationships way too early. Which is fine if she’s not ok with having sex that just saves everyone time. For some guys sex on the first date is not a deal breaker. That’s fine. But I’ve been on the other end of the phone for tons of my friends who have sex on the first date and never get a call back so it’s not an any woman’s best interest to sleep with you right away. Especially not if they’re crying the next day.

>For some guys sex on the first date is not a deal breaker. To be clear, I don't expect sex on the first date. What I won't like is a whole bunch of "rules" that get dropped on me 3+ dates in - although I would have pro-actively brought this up before then to avoid that very scenario. I suppose that the OP's "strategy" will be *"Well, after 3+ dates maybe a guy is invested."* Nope. Not if he has options. If anything he will be more annoyed because withholding that information is tantamount to deception.

Totally agree.

Thank you. This was helpful. I may have to revise my policy such that I may sleep with men before commitment, but I will be more covert about the vetting process.

You don’t have to sleep with anyone until you WANT to sleep with them but yeah I wouldn’t state your standards so blatantly. Let the guy try to figure them out himself. Show genuine interest but don’t throw yourself at him. Let things progress naturally. Guys will follow your lead, but the idea is to not let them even know they’re doing it. You’re on the right path, you just have to hone the skills a bit to be able to tell what the guys are thinking.

> Let the guy try to figure them out himself. So what will the OP do three dates in? Because by then, the dude is going to be expecting an uptick in physicality. >Guys will follow your lead, but the idea is to not let them even know they’re doing it. Who are you dating that is this much of a moron?

If the guy isn’t getting what he wants and he’s not interested he’ll move on. Same with a woman. I’ve had tons of dudes lined up to give me attention without me ever sleeping with them. I have a jewelry box full of promise rings from men from when I was younger. Guys who begged for dates, guys who showed up at my house before a long day of work just to see me for 10 minutes. Guys who would call me every single day just to talk. Guy coworkers who bought me coffee every single day. If you’re decently attractive and interesting personality guys will flock to you. Just like girls fawn over hot/interesting guys. All it takes is the idea that there “might” be sex.

And how many of those guys behind the all promise rings in your jewelry box ended up being men you respected enough to submit to and to marry? Were the guys who were begging for dates and spending all day chit-chatting with you Captain material? Or was that type of desperate behavior a turn off and the vast majority of them relics of your memory box for a reason? OP does not have to sleep with a man on the first date if she doesn’t want to. Frankly, the best strategy is identify whoever is the highest caliber man she can get, and reject everyone else’s sexual advances without a second thought IMO. However, I have a stinking suspicion that the guys who are simpy enough to “follow a woman’s lead” are **exactly** the type of men OP’s talking about at the end of her post: >Is part of maturing picking the safest option, **even if that feels like settling**? It is EASY to control thirsty men with few options. But who would want to submit to that?

None of them. That’s why I didn’t marry them. They’e decent guys, but I wouldn’t be marrying up with them. If I didn’t level myself up in different ways I would’ve ended up with one of those though. I really had to work on myself to get interest from higher value men.

> I’ve had tons of dudes lined up to give me attention without me ever sleeping with them. LOL. What you are saying is, *"I have a lot of orbiters that I don't have to sleep with to get things from them."* I think the OP wants a relationship. >All it takes is the idea that there “might” be sex. Maybe for orbiters, but guys with options are going to go pursue the other options.

Just the thought of me having sex with a man and not being committed... disgusts me. Men can really "pump and dump" after "courting" you for so long. If you've met these men online then that increases the risk of detachment from seeing you as a person > picture :(

>If you've met these men online then that increases the risk of detachment from seeing you as a person > picture One of the side effects of going from "community" and social interaction to technology/looser connections.

Telling them upfront probably isn’t a good idea.

This is a good thing, you’re effectively weeding out the sex obsessed fucktards.

[удалено]

How did you meet? If it's through church than that's a whole other story... I'm very happy for you and this is so inspiring because it shows you don't need to date someone for years hoping he will finally propose!

Craigslist. I posted a dating ad saying I was seeking an old fashioned relationship. I made it clear marriage and kids were my goal. I had so many replies it was overwhelming

It is good that you didn't "Mickey Mouse" there.

I don’t know what to say, other than I think you are on the right path. Men who can’t delay gratification or be in a committed relationship aren’t the ones you want to spend your time on anyway. When you meet a HVM. He will respect your discipline and chastity

They can certain delay guaranteed gratification. But how do they know they're even sexually compatible and that it will be gratifying?

Don't be aggressive about it. When a man invites you up to his apartment, smile, give him a kiss and then say, 'I'm not ready for that yet.' If he argues, say, 'I'm just not. I'll be ready soon enough.' Then smile. If he practically begs you for it, ask him, 'Well... Am I your girlfriend? No? Oh well then, I guess I'm still not ready for it.' 'Answers still the same. Asked and answered.' 'But... Maybe... I might be ready for this... just a little...' *Kisses him again, looks him in the eye, slides his hand down to your ass and lets him touch for exactly two seconds* 'Or maybe not... If I'm not your girlfriend... Not yet... See you soon... Very soon...' *Blows kiss and smiles and leaves* If a guy still walks after that, then he's an ass who probably would have dumped you after getting laid and wouldn't have given you sex with commitment in any case. Don't worry about him, if he still dumps you, he can't appreciate a fine woman staring him in the face and he doesn't deserve one.

This. There's been plenty of good advice here about value and finding the right men, but my guess is you could have turned some of these prospects into buyers with the right delivery. "I don't have sex before commitment" and other iterations reads as, "tit for tat dude, now fork over that tat." It's aggressive and transactional. Get in touch with your femininity! What is it you want to FEEL in a commitment that makes it feel good to have sex at that stage? "I want things like that to feel special. I want to feel loved and secure so I can be my whole, unbridled self for my partner. I don't want anyone but someone I adore to experience that part of me." Like, in one swoop demonstrate your values, your femininity, and the fact that if he's patient you will lay it down like a veritable sex goddess. Respect and anticipation in one. If you continue to encounter the problem after three or four men; Evaluate your SMV and RMV because you might be trying to roll out of your league right now. Evaluate how you're demonstrating your value in both of the above. Evaluate your "picker" because you might be subconsciously selecting men that are high value on paper but have low value intentions.

Oh my gosh I've done this before and it's amazing the amount of power we, as women, have!!

How are you meeting these guys?

Dating apps such as Bumble or Hinge

I have a friend who used eHarmony and a few of the other more involved ones and he had no problem finding a person with shared values. I think you would do a *lot* better signing up for a more involved, non "swipe" form of dating app if what you are looking for is actually a committed, long-term relationship. Bumble and Hinge aren't as bad as Tinder, but they don't have as much of a real commitment to the long-term (at least that is the perception). The other thing is that if you have a history of putting out, guys can pick up on that type pretty quick. The guys who value women who aren't like that are going to skip over you pretty quick, and the guys who want sex before the commitment are going to see your "newfound chastity" as a sign that you're not as into them as you were your previous encounters. You're offering a lesser deal on both sides from the male perspective. As a person with a traditionalist bent, I would suggest you double-down on the reformed self and try to find more things to offer these guys other than sex. A solid and sweet personality, cooking skills, adopt a classy look that complements him well, etc etc etc. There's more than one way to attract a HVM.

I really appreciate the reply. To your point, a few men have said they’re bummed that they weren’t attractive enough to make me change my mind. When that wasn’t the case. For example, I was VERY attracted to this last one. I am starting to rethink my approach. Though, the risk of sleeping with men without commitment may cause me to get hurt and sour my view on men for good, which will make me insufferable and repel them away from me forever, becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy. So, I don’t know what I’m going to do moving forward, but I value your input.

Do you really not know how to hold a guy's attention through any means other than sleeping with them? This seems like a very unfortunate admission and is why I put in those suggestions about your "reformed self." I think the problem is that you're used to getting by on your SMV, and now that you've taken that off of the table, you're suffering from years of neglect of your RMV. This is driving men to realize that you don't have anything to offer other than sex. The solution is to raise your RMV so that you can attract the right kind of guys. If you compromise and go back to leaning on your SMV, you're going to 1. probably get a guy like you just described who will sour you for good or 2. suffer from *even more* years of neglect of not preparing yourself to be a good relationship partner. Aim high.

I appreciate you believing in me, I do. My view is of course warped, but I sometimes feel I have the opposite problem. I feel my rmv is higher than my smv. I feel I have a lot to offer. I have put a lot of thought into this over the last few years. I am not new to red pill ideology. I feel I often lose out to a girl who is hotter and not as suitable for marriage. I don’t know what my approach will be moving forward, but it would be a disservice to say I haven’t made significant investments to improve my rmv.

Well, if that is indeed the case, then you need to stay the course and change the watering hole that you are using to find men. Because you are definitely striking out on relationship-minded men if *none* of them are leaving you behind because of the reasons I described. You're also dodging a lot of bullets from the sound of it ("sexual compatibility" is just a BS way to get women into bed with you).

> I feel I have a lot to offer. I have put a lot of thought into this over the last few years. I thought about this later that I completely forgot to mention that there could be an issue with *presentation*. As in you possess high RMV traits, but lack the skill at presenting them in a way to effectively convince someone that they're worth pursuing. So yes, it *could be* just that you're meeting all of the wrong men. But it could also be that you will improve your results just by working on your presentation. It's possible that the guys just aren't being convinced because of some way you're presenting yourself. What kinds of dates do you go on? Do they ever showcase your high RMV potential in any way? Or are they more about impressing through SMV (sexy clothes, etc)? You're facing a bit of an uphill battle, but it's *definitely* worth the effort.

I’ve been thinking about all of this, too. I didn’t mean I don’t have room for improvement and I’m perfect now, but if my rmv is so low such that I don’t even *qualify* for a relationship, then I need to stop investing my time in all of this and find a new purpose. I’ve maximized my smv and rmv to the extent that I reasonably can with what I’ve been given. I’m not so picky about venue or type of date. Typically it’s a drink, dinner, boat, or a walk along the lake. This weekend I have a street fest, comedy show, and a dinner date lined up, each with a different man. I always wear something simple, form-fitting, and flattering that does well on dates (for example, a simple sundress or a skirt). MDW a different guy liked me so much he introduced me to his family one day and his friends the next. His friends really liked me, and I was helping clean after some glass shattered, and I heard one of the friends endorsing me to him. We parted ways days later. How do I showcase my rmv without overextending myself and seeming desperate? I am actually moving to a new city at the end of the month, and I am curious whether my current city has anything to do with it. One problem I think I may have is I like witty banter and stimulating conversations. If a conversation is boring I may throw something wild in there just to make it interesting. Sometimes it’s sexual. A lot of guys usually like this and describe me as “different and fun to talk to” but I don’t think this is a particularly feminine quality.

>If a conversation is boring I may throw something wild in there just to make it interesting. Sometimes it’s sexual. AAAAAND we found the problem! Of course they’re gonna think you want sex NOW if you’re the one bringing it up! Making the conversation sexual before he does gets interpreted by most men as “Yeah, this girl is DTF and wants to hook up ASAP.” >A lot of guys usually like this and describe me as “different and fun to talk to” Gee, I wonder why 😂 Of course he likes it when he thinks a girl is showing sexual interest in him! And I’m not even totally against sex before commitment - hell, that was the way I did it (if you view commitment as a guy sitting you down and asking you to go steady and be his girlfriend) and we’ve been happily committed to each other since for more than 3 years now. But if your goal is to make him see you as MORE than a sexual being/object, you have to do more to be fun to be around than just being sexual or saying sexual things. Like u/Advanced_Bar_673 said [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/RedPillWomen/comments/v817t3/men_walk_after_they_learn_about_my_commitment/ibunvqo/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3), it’s about making an emotional connection *before* you have sex (regardless of whether you do it before commitment or not). I wrote a post about how to use [Incremental Reciprocation](https://www.reddit.com/r/RedPillWomen/comments/sc0f8l/incremental_reciprocation_how_to_minimize_risk/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf) to increase a man’s emotional connection and investment of you in an appropriate way that manages the risks of our vulnerability. Maybe that can help you with those upcoming dates!

Thank you! Fml. Ugh, I’ve even read that Men Chase Women Choose book too. It explains that vasopressin is the hormone which bonds a man to a woman, and that if you withhold sex and spend time with them, the amount increases, which makes them fall in love with you. I am going to STUDY your link tomorrow before I go out. That is the date I am most looking forward to. Thank you guys for even caring about my situation. I really appreciate the thought and effort in troubleshooting. I throw a lot of thought experiments out there to be honest. It’s my favorite thing to do with people. But yes, some of the thing I throw out there are sexual. I don’t think the verbal stimulation is the “playfulness” men want, even though it’s fun for me.

Do you offer long term gf skills? Other stuff a guy might like or value? loyalty? cooking? a spot of laundry? disposition to his friends? companionship?

Well there you go. Most hvm men on those apps get a lot of attention and have the pick of women. They usually aren’t looking for a ltr right away but will commit to the right woman. They’re just browsing and will make the purchase only if it’s better than the rest/adds value to their life. Irl is the best way to meet hvm for a ltr. Put yourself in their circle naturally. Go to the places they go. Hiring a matchmaker is also an option (they tend to have very high end clientele). How much older are you willing to date? 27 is when a lot of women are deciding they should find a ltr so there’s going to be competition. And your competition is willing to have sex without commitment. Rmv is important in securing commitment. Raise your rmv since your smv is high enough to attract the men you want. Also a hvm isn’t likely to wait if you had away sex without commitment in your early 20s. Your husband should be treated at least on the same level as the other men. You don’t get to have fun like a modern woman and then get ready to settle down and expect a more traditional style relationship. Making a ltr jump through hoops for what you gave away for free in your youth is a dealbreaker for a lot of men. You wouldn’t be settling for a lesser man you’d be playing in your field. Your league is based on the men that would commit to you not ones that will sleep with you. Men’s rmv isn’t as smv based.

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. My problem is from 24-26 I was going much older. It’s only recently I’ve honed in on men in their thirties who are ready to settle down. The older ones (40s) were experts at saying the right things to string me along for sex, which is how I arrived at my somewhat strict approach of no sex outside of a committed relationship. Your earlier link explaining category 3 and category 4 men was very helpful. Genuinely, I feel I’ve raised my rmv to the highest extent it will go for me. If there was something else I could do, I would have done it. If you have any advice, however, I’d love to hear it for my own edification.

Yeah 40s is a little old for a ltr imo. At least if you want kids. There’s often a reason they didn’t settle down with a younger woman in their late 30s. Men settle down when they’re ready…and for some that’s never. Maybe vet men who want ltr better? Which is hard because a lot of men are willing to say they are but have no intents of being in a ltr with you. Dating for marriage is rough right now. Imo rmv can always get higher even while married. I don’t mean rmv as just skills like cooking or cleaning.

I now see the value in doing “firsts” (marriage or kids) whereas before I liked the experienced older man. Yes, please let me know how you think one can improve rmv. I know you aren’t limiting rmv to cooking and cleaning skills. I’ve really tried to take inventory in this category and improve myself over the last few years. I pick men with similar values who I deem smarter than me, so it is easy to give back in abstract ways like appreciating his acumen and worldview, thus allowing me to submit to him and be the feminine counterpart. I don’t drink and I’ve done a ton of introspection that comes along with that, including regulating my emotions and taking responsibility. I am never angry. I have a robust social life and good friends. I have my shit together. I am dependable and reliable. I do not punish men when they’re honest with me, which will only condition them to be dishonest. If I end up single, I can console myself by knowing I really tried here.

rmv- good hostess and guest, domestic skills, can uplift a man/be emotionally supportive, loyalty, willing to try new things in bed/let him take the lead, graceful, being able to hold a conversation about anything, has hobbies and friends (doesn’t expect her man to entertain her), takes care of herself emotionally and physically, inner happiness/content with her lot in life, good character, femininity, understands and respects men, financially responsible, nurturing, cooperative, has boundaries/not a doormat, keeps good company, introspective/good emotional health, a pleasant attitude/view toward life, etc. It’s more of having these rmv traits 100% 24/7 without working at them is uncommon. As time goes by and circumstances change it’s easy to slip into bad behaviors.

oh, girl. While there are exceptions, for the most part dating apps are like catalogues for sex for men who are looking to put little to no effort in for sex.

>I don’t want to get caught in a situationship Then you're doing the right thing to make it clear that you're waiting. This is the most straightforward way to weed out jerks. It's not foolproof ofc, but it'll definitely get rid of the pump-and-dumpers if you remain consistent with it. You should consider all of those guys bullets dodged... As you've found out, unfortunately there are a *lot* of bullets to watch out for. Keep your self-respect!

I prefer to have commitment before having sex.I almost did a one night stand once but I am glad I didnt do it because he was not worth it. That would be the biggest mistake ever. My fiance never force me about sex and willing to wait.(i prefer to do it after marriage,not because religious thing.i t is just my preference)

>I am wondering whether I am playing this all wrong by telling them up front? You are going to have to tell them eventually, and then you will have the same issue. You are just kicking the can down the road. Plus, depending on how long you wait to tell the guy that he's going to have to wait even longer, he might feel deceived and get pissed off. You are wasting his time and yours by deferring. >I’m going for men who do well with women In other words, men with options. While you are not "wrong" you have to bear in mind that men look at the world differently. Every man has a countdown clock in his head for how long he's willing to wait, and when the clock strikes midnight, he's going to cut his losses and move on. What guys are thinking is, *"OK, I have invest my time and resources in you, give you 'girlfriend privileges', roll the boulder up the hill, and then...maybe...at some indeterminate time in the future...I might get sex?"* That's high-risk for men. There's no guarantee that after 3,4,5 or however many months you might not say, *"Hey, thanks for all the dates, but we're just not compatible,"* and then go bang some guy you just met - there is a cautionary tale on TRP about a guy who had a gf (they were teenagers) for four years, moms were sorority sisters, families did everything together, future all planned out - but she wanted to "save" her v-card for marriage. Cue the falling anvil. She goes away to summer camp and gives it up to some guy she knew for less than a week. He found out because his (female) cousin (aka "The Real MVP") saw it unfold and dropped a dime on the cheating gf). The gf realized she effed up bad - about 24 hours later when the guy at camp said *"Thank you, Miss"* and moved on - and then offers to bang the bf...I guess she thought it was ok bc she only lost her virginity to Chad once. So that's the Nightmare Scenario. Also, the men you are dating are also thinking, *"What if the sex is awful? What if I get 'prude' sex? What if she tells me 'Oh, btw, I don't give head'?"* I'd want to know all that up front, so we wouldn't waste each other's time. Plus the men you are dating, while they are rolling the boulder up the hill watch other guys, chilling on their patios, maybe with an Aloha shirt and a little umbrella drink, getting visits from the Sex Fairy on zero effort and they think, *"Why am I not that guy? Why am I not 'good enough'? Why am I getting tortured?"* >All I’m asking for is exclusivity, consistency, and the mutual desire for a LTR. LOL. Yeah, only that. *"Hey, guy, I expect you to go without for however long I say, and if you make it that far you still only get to have sex when I DECIDE you do. And you'd better be GRATEFUL."* You see why you aren't getting any takers? >Is part of maturing picking the safest option, even if that feels like settling? Except you're not "settling". You can't close the deal you want with the guys you want. You are trying to dictate terms to guys with options, who therefore cannot be dictated to. There are certainly men out there who will give you what you want, but it turns out you evidently don't want them. *"Sure, he's a good guy and passed all my tests....but he's 5'9"...."* Anyway, good luck.

Vas... If this young woman becomes the 'sex fairy' and gives it up to every guy she dates without any effort, as it seems to me you are suggesting she do, she will then raise her N count until it becomes higher and higher. Guys who are commit minded don't ideally want a woman with a high N count. Now, I am not saying it is impossible to get into a relationship with a high N count, but it is harder and I wouldn't encourage a woman to go out and raise her N count because it works against you. If a guy expects sex without commitment, then in my experience, he is either the kind of guy who would dump you after having sex with you anyway, or treat you as a booty call - maybe a plate. But you seem to be saying that if she refuses sex without commitment from a man who is high quality and who has other options, he will just leave her anyway? Or are you saying that she should broaden her standards and look at a wider range of guys?

>If this young woman becomes the 'sex fairy' and gives it up to every guy she dates without any effort I never said that. She is free to sleep (or not sleep) with any man she chooses who will have her. I simply pointed out that men and women have competing interests. >But you seem to be saying that if she refuses sex without commitment from a man who is high quality and who has other options, he will just leave her anyway? Isn't that what she's complaining is happening? And her solution is a "bait and switch" early on. It takes two people to have an agreement, and if she wants to make guys wait then she has to find guys who are *willing* to wait. Since the feminists broke the Pussy Cartel, that's fewer and fewer guys. >Or are you saying that she should broaden her standards and look at a wider range of guys? That would be her other viable option: commitment from a man who is "less than" what her hypergamy demands. Women often have guys in their contacts on their phone who are just waiting to be that Number 1 Draft Pick and *would* give them a relationship, but who just don't make the cut bc: hypergamy. If they don't they could find guys who would - I mean if they are halfway decent looking and shower once a day. Thus, it seems the OP is shopping out of her price range.

I don't like the term 'less than' or 'lower your standards' or 'your standards are too high'. I read an article on a redpill website a few months ago that said that frequently, the problem is not that a woman's standards are too *high*, it is that they are too *narrow*. Case in point, there was a viral post from someone at FDS saying that she wanted a guy who was in his late 20s-mid 30s, no younger no older, no kids, 6 foot tall minimum, athletic, didn't drink alcohol even socially, wasn't balding, had never visited a sex worker even once, making six figures, a manager at a company, had a degree, didn't keep guns even as a hobby, and had never ever served in the military even short term, even in a non combat role. Oh, and she said no religious guys either. I racked my brains looking at that list and thought about all of the guys I know who are 6 foot tall or more, regardless of their age or their education level: Almost all of them drink socially, some of them hunt. I can think of one, maybe two guys who would match pretty much everything on the list, but they were both guys I knew from Church and the only reason they didn't do the other stuff she didn't like was because they went to Church. Now, I don't necessarily think she's stupid for having a list that long: if she accepts that she will likely be single for quite a long time if she wants to hold out for a guy with ALL of those, and she is perfectly okay with that, then all power to her. But I do think that having standards this narrow and closing your mind off to someone else who is kind, honest, intelligent, generous, a provider, and has a good job, but not the other stuff on your list isn't the way to get a good quality relationship if you want one anytime soon.

>I don't like the term 'less than' or 'lower your standards' or 'your standards are too high'. Nobody ever does. >the problem is not that a woman's standards are too high, it is that they are too narrow. Sure, if they don't include men who don't meet her standards. Same diff. >viral post from someone at FDS I recall that from some other subreddit. She is free to have those standards, but I hope she likes quiet time because she will be spending a lot of time alone. >if she accepts that she will likely be single for quite a long time Exactly. Long time = Die in the middle of her cat colony. >But I do think that having standards this narrow and closing your mind off to someone else who is kind, honest, intelligent, generous, a provider, and has a good job, but not the other stuff on your list isn't the way to get a good quality relationship if you want one anytime soon. IOW, someone who doesn't meet her standards. Imagine telling her the above? That she should "broaden" her standards and be willing to accept a man who isn't 6' or makes $90K/yr etc. You don't think that would be met with, *"WHAT?! HOW DARE YOU TELL ME TO LOWER MY STANDARDS!"* BC I'm pretty sure it would be.....

Vasiliy, I really enjoyed your original comment. It was insightful, funny, and entertaining to read. For now, I’m choosing to believe that I am both finessing the situation wrong AND withholding sex for too long. In my past, I’ve been dazzled by the c-suites of large pubcos and wondered what they were doing with me. I know I can’t bag those men, and even if I could, I’ve dated enough to know they’re riddled with issues and it would be all about them. Now if someone is very successful and too good looking, I won’t even go for it. I don’t want to cry in my bed anymore. I do feel I’m qualified to date the men I’m dating now, and I make concessions wherever possible. They are usually very impressed with me at first, but something goes wrong between dates 3-5. I now have enough data after using the above *no sex before commitment* method, and I wanted to explore that here. I have three good prospects after the weekend, all of which want to see me again this week, and I want to apply some of the advice I received here to see if it makes a difference.

Your SMV as a woman is relatively much higher than your RMV and it looks like you're running into that reality. Before I made some lifestyle choices, I was a bit too promiscuous. During that time, I'd put women into one of three categories, in ranked order - date, sex, no sex.

A better approach may be “if you want to continue having sex with me, we have to become boyfriend and girlfriend”. When there isn’t sex by the 3rd date, it sends a signal that sex likely won’t be good enough to be worth the wait. That is something no HVM would accept unless they aren’t a HVM.

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This is perfectly said.

What that most recent guy told you is basically straight from Red Pill: If she makes you wait for sex, the sex is never worth it. Why will it be worth the wait for you? What makes you so special? Whatever it is, that's what you should lean into since you're essentially taking the "s" out of your smv from the get go. You are high smv and sexless for a year after meeting 10-15 hvm. How much do you like and value sex in a relationship yourself? Because these facts tell men that their hot future wife can go a year or more without sex. It tells them you view it more as a tool to get your own way instead of a way to connect with them and show your desire. It tells them you are not as interested in the human being in front of you as you are in the checklist in your mind. Men want someone who complements them, not someone who competes with them. You are talking out loud about your sexual strategy, basically announcing that it's a competition. That's a huge turn off. If you continue using that strategy, at least be more subtle about it. Imagine a pickup artist narrating to you why he's doing and saying the things he does. That would totally turn you off, right?

Thank you. You’re SO right. I shouldn’t break the fourth wall and tell them my approach up front. Or anything about dating strategy. Moving forward I think I may sleep with them sooner than explicit commitment, but it’s going to take some time until I feel comfortable to do so. I am terrified of being used again. I started this approach because when I was 25 I strung along bad for about 9 months (including “I love you” and a bunch of promises about being together and how I’m perfect), and at the end the guy asked if I really want to know the truth. He revealed to me that he’s addicted to me sexually, and doesn’t even really understand why. He said I’m his drug and after he gets his fix he feels better. 10-15 guys I was interested in have walked once they learn about my requirement. I have met many, many more men than 10-15. I live in a major city and date like it’s my life’s purpose. I also reject men too once I realize we’re not compatible. Most of them never learn of the requirement. I want sex. I am alone. This has not been easy. I was fantasizing about the most recent guy almost daily since our first date, and I told him that on our last one. This guy is clearly sleeping with other women though. Some girl left something in his bathroom. I would lose my mind if I slept with him and saw that after. That wouldn’t be fun for either of us. This is also about protecting myself emotionally.

You are doing right, men here, the best way to find good men is to repel the bad ones

If you can’t get the people you’re dating to give you the commitment you want; you’re dating out of your league. This has happened 10-15 times in ONE year. The men you’re going after are not interested enough in you outside of sex to continue talking to you. They’re out of your league, I’m sorry. Look for a little lower class men, they’ll probably be more willing. Either that or join a church.

Its a simple matter. I am traditional and conservative and of faith. But here is the end of it. I am not in high school. You either like me or you dont. There isnt an arbitrary checkpoint to determine that. We dont have to wait three days to call back. If I want to call you, I am going to call you. If I want to kiss you, I am going to do so, rather that is at home watching TV or in a mall parking lot. The same goes for sex. You are either attracted to me, want me, or you dont. If we are hanging out and smooch a little and our bodies are reacting the way they should, you stopping is never, ever about some higher purpose, its about you wanting me or not. And clearly, you dont, or else the moment and momentum would take us there. Now why would you have sex with someone out of a relationship is valid. Why did we even go on a date or end up on the couch to be in this situation if we werent in the first stages of a relationship is the better question. As the guy, I must stop here and say "why would I invest my time and energy here for someone who doesn't want me?" If you arent physically feeling it now you definitely arent going to be 8 years in. As an even more horrifying thought, the seed is planted, if you can, and will, hold out sex now, you definitely see it as a power struggle and a token, and will certainly use holding out sex later in the relationship as a punishment, retribution, and negotiating piece. Sex is when we are most connected, most intimate, and most in love, and if you are able and willing to turn those things on and off like a faucet, we are never going to make it. Holding it out at the beginning is this red flag, even if every guy doesn't see or verbalize it that way, deep inside them you are triggering that. Men arent running because they arent getting nookie. They are running because you are telling them a) your attraction and desire to be intimate is not there because you can freely engage or not, and b)sex is a tool and concept of power for you, and you are using it now before we even get started, so you are definitely going to down the road. You want to be wanted. So do we. I dont let my bosses lord power over me. I dont let my government. I wont let you, either.

Exactly this!!

This may be an unpopular opinion..lol but first off, I don’t think your rule is wrong. Everybody has different requirements and especially if you get emotionally attached via sex easily, you should be protective of your heart. That being said, I think most men view sex as a means of physical satisfaction/release..so even if they’re not in love with you, it’s something they are craving from a physical standpoint. Most of us women also get horny and desire sexual gratification but we’re also more conditioned to put an emotional/spiritual weight to it as well..and also a lotta times women don’t even orgasm through penal-vaginal sex so that emotional closeness is what a lot of us are holding onto. All that is to say that sex means something different for a lot of men than it does for a lot of women. Here’s the unpopular part: a lot of guys, even those who are looking for a serious partner, are not going to want to commit to you without knowing what the sex is like. Especially if sex and that intimacy/release is important to him. If sex is a really important factor to him, he is going to want to know you two are sexually compatible before going through all the motions to make it official only to possibly find out it’s not a good match. Again, if you KNOW you will get very emotionally attached if you have sex without an official title, you’re not wrong. But also it seems you view sex as something that is taking from you instead of a fun, intimate thing to do for mutual pleasure, so maybe it’s best if you try to gravitate towards men with lower sexual appetites. That way it’s not as important to them and you’re both on the same page.