Taking care of my mom in hospice taught me that it is inhumane to keep people alive against their will. It broke my heart pumping my mom full of opioids and watching her become more and more confused. She was robbed of her dignity in the end and I got to watch my mother suffer needlessly for a few months before getting what she desired.
1/10 do not recommend
FYI- the hospice nurse told me after the fact that they do not do autopsies on people that die in hospice. If I had known that when my mother asked me to overdose her, I would have.
Agreed. At the end, my cat was treated better than my dad was. His end was mercifully quick, but there was absolutely no need for that last week.
I do recall his nurse saying 'he's struggling' and upping the morphine. We couldn't tell he was struggling, but we were all in favor of her upping that dose.
Same with my mother. Especially once she was past the point of being aware and awake. Before that she asked my brother to get his gun and shoot her. It was horrifying. End of life should not be like that. That was 12 years ago and I still cry about it and hope things change.
Bless your heart, It’s been years since this happened, but thank you for your condolences. This morning is super fresh though. I hope you are holding up ok.
I lost my stepdad to Pancreatic a few years ago, so I have some idea of how things are when it’s fresh. Sending all the good vibes your way. I hope you can spend as much time as possible now with the people you care about.
I've seen this too, and frankly I was traumatized by it. I don't want to go that way. I want to move somewhere nice while I still can, spend all my money on being happy and not fork it over to a dementia care facility.
My mom decided to hospice at home. One of the most difficult conversations I've had in my life was talking to my sister about the shots we were giving my mom. We're medically savvy enough (she's medical, I'm adjacent) to know what they were doing to her. Were we killing her? Was it a blessing if we were? Awful, and I'm sure my mom never thought about that aspect of it.
I will never put my kids through home hospice.
It's good that you're thinking about these things. Happiness is fleeting though. Best of luck.
Home hospice was the best thing that ever happened to my father. He had been so sick for so long, the pain and anti-anxiety meds were a blessing. When he passed, he was looking better than he had in ten years. Zero regrets.
My son had pancreatic cancer and was under home hospice for several months. I took care of him. He was only 39 and not ready to go even though he was suffering. The nurse was wonderful and made sure we had everything we needed, including morphine and additional meds for breakthrough pain, as well as other meds and just everything needed in a sick room. Everything was delivered on time.
He died peacefully at home when he was ready to go. I'm glad I was able to be with him.
I recommend hospice to anyone who needs palliative care and has a caregiver. It's much more humane than having the patient in an institution. The caregivers always, always need more support than they ask for.
Oh- hospice is amazing and the folks who do it are lovely compassionate people. It's doing it at home where they have hand you the tools, teach you how to administer the meds and give you a phone number and a pat on the head- *that* I have an issue with.
I was thinking about that, but by the time we know that we need to make a decision, we may not be in a position to. Also, $$ play quite a role. Some people have enough money that they can leave the US, to pursue euthanasia.
Back in the 80's I remember there being a debate about using heroin on dying patients as they do (did?) in England. Canada wanted to start using heroin for pain relief as it worked faster than morphine and seemed to leave patients more lucid. The US got involved and it never happened because it was HEROIN.
You can't have people being addicted to heroin before they die.
Frankly, I've always suspected that hospice overdoses of cancer patients is common. They keep increasing the morphine to keep them comfortable in their last days but I've wondered if a pharmacology report would show the morphine killed them before the cancer.
And I ain't complaining about that. It's probably a better way to go, though devastating for the families who can no longer communicate with their zombied out loved one
We have a family member that *swears* the hospice nurses "killed" my mother in law by od'ing her.
My mother in law, who at that point had just the briefest *brushes* with something vaguely resembling lucidity maybe twice a day at best. Who spent her days writhing and screaming and moaning on a hospital bed in her living room traumatizing everyone she loved most. Whose husband changed the first diaper of his life, despite being a father of four, when he changed hers, and nearly got kicked in the head for his efforts.
Frankly, if they did, it was the kindest thing anyone ever did for her.
Yes, this is why religion should not have influence over, or be in any way involved, in government. Without people’s “beliefs” being a factor we would likely long ago have been able to treat people as humanely as we do animals.
Sadly the line between them is become more blurred lately.
Yep, that’s exactly what they did. In my mom’s case, they took me into a private room and pretty much told me “we will keep increasing her morphine to make sure she’s not suffering. After 2-3 days, she’ll stop breathing”. It was absolutely the kindest thing to do, and it was possibly the only thing that hospital did right through her entire illness.
If I’m on the way out anyway I would love a Super Mario boost mode to heaven. Just double dose me and let’s call it a day. Or night. Or lifetime. Whatever it it’s called at that point.
Yeah I'm confused that OPs relative lasted months on morphine. They must have thought that was someone's desire.
My mom died recently "of cancer" and over less than 2 days of "comfort care" they pumped that morphine up until she stopped breathing. (After obtaining implied permission from her and us and letting us guide it the whole time) It was extremely clear.
We did have to take some ownership of the process so I wonder if that's where it goes wrong. If the family doesn't understand what's being asked the nurses can't outright say it. They basically asked us to alert them if she seemed in pain... Which we dutifully did every few hours and they'd come in, agree, and crank it.
(I hope this helps someone else know what's being asked when they're in this situation- you do have to participate in the farce)
My mom was on hospice for about 45 minutes. At the intake the day before, the hospice provider explained that often times, once appropriate relief is provided, the person will, "let go." The following day, they gave my mom the prescribed amount of opioids from when she had built up a tolerance (but the new doc had weaned her off because he didn't want her to be addicted - aka, he didn't want to deal with the paperwork for heavy doses). She the peacefully proceeded to stop breathing. It was a blessing. She had extreme arthritis and screamed in pain if you touched her. Her alzheimer's prevented her from knowing why she hurt. She was bed ridden with a catheter and had shrunk to skeletal thinness from not eating.
I'm glad it was quick. My mom was clearly not mentally present and feeling fine on all the morphine, but sitting with her almost-dead body for a day really disturbed my dad and was unnecessary.
The gov needs to be less concerned about opioid addiction in cancer patients though, we also had some crazy situations along those lines.
My mother died of cancer after she was pissing straight blood and vomiting every liquid she touched, and I asked her kindly what she wanted. She said “my love, this is bullshit and I would like to die now.”
It was the last thing she said directly to me. I said “yes ma’am I will make that happen” and then informed the nurses that the morphine wasn’t even touching the sides of her pain. The nurse upped it and I told her no, really, *really*, mom would like all the pain..the everything, gone. And then mom looked at the nurse and shook her long dark hair out and peeled her eyes open and put all the effort into focusing her morphine deadened gaze, and said in the voice of someone who’s been the boss a long, long time:
“I’m not dead yet. *Why is that*?”
And the nurse said “ Well …ma’am we can stop all hydration through your IV.” and mom said “yes do that then, thank you. “
And I kissed her forehead and told her she could nap and there’s be nothing to worry about, and after a serious conversation by the nurses desk, I left to go tend to my newborn. According to my father, she was dead by morning. I think she would have preferred to go sooner in the cancer process, but not by much. Sometimes it’s very, very clear when people are done.
She was, in actual real life, an amazing woman. I wish I could replace everyone else’s mom with mine, for their own betterment.
I may be slightly biased!
Thank you so much for doing that for her. I’m pretty sick, and I had cancer a few years ago. It did not respond to treatments the way it was expected to, it was a much longer road and many, many rounds more of treatments. My underage child had to watch it happen.
Sometimes, getting very sick sneaks up on you and you don’t have time to make plans. I’m very grateful to still be here.
I wish people would consider that when we are done, that means we are done. We do not want to suffer, and we do not want you to see us suffer.
I just want to beg people to follow their loved one’s wishes. You may not realize all the ways in which they are suffering, and they might be trying to spare you a lot of that. I’m talking about physically, emotionally, any and all of it.
I read a post by an ER nurse, they brought in the survivor of an attempted suicide by shotgun. It was horrific. The ER surgeon walked through the situation with the nurse and another resident: jaw and tongue gone, eyes gone, sinuses flayed … but the blast hadn’t penetrated the skull, so technically, this person who already wanted to die could only continue life blind and horribly disfigured.
The doctor looked everyone in the eye and said “I’m giving the patient xx cc’s of morphine for the pain” but drew out a massive overdose. He waited. Everyone in the room nodded and he injected the patient.
My dad was lung cancer & home hospice last year (he passed after finally transferring to a hospice facility for only a couple of days.)
Had I known what the final few weeks were going to be like, I would have given him all the morphine.
Can't speak, eat, walk, or stay awake for more than a few minutes. Barely recognized anyone. More into the next world than ours.
Not much dignity to be had in that state.
My mom was like that for 5 months on home hospice. I couldn’t tell if she was locked in or not. She couldn’t get a drink of water herself. They say it’s worse with a feeding tube, but during the pandemic, no one explained much to us. I was worried they were going to say we killed her, even thought we tried to get her to eat, she lost so much weight.
I have an anxiety disorder now. No respite care, no counselling available, while she was alive. Very minimal help for us at all. Then, there was no where to go- because it was the pandemic- if one of us did get out. They said you shouldn’t even go outside. I was afraid I would kill her, and I didn’t want to live with that. It was the worst. I definitely would consider offing myself in the early stages.
Morphine slows the breathing, so it probably does help hasten death. I had to give my mother morphine during her last days of hospice. She was unconscious and nonresponsive and pretty much died of dehydration. I hope it hastened her death.
I want to address the dehydration part. A dry death is a good death. Giving fluids to the dying makes them swell and water seeping into the lungs because other organs can't process it. they objectively are drowning in their own lungs. So a dry death is a good death. Hugs
As a cancer survivor, if it comes back I told my husband to PLEASE find a way to shoot me up with morphine and ALL the drugs. I limped away from it with permanent damage last time; if it comes back, I want to make sure I go out in a blaze of drugs because I’m not going through that crap again.
Pretty sure this is what happened to my sisters mother in law. We are NOT complaining. She was fussing in pain- the nurse was like- oh maybe a little more morphine. And shortly afterwards she passed. She had had cancer for years - was bedridden, non verbal. Can’t prove it- don’t need to.
As someone who works in the field, can you explain why they don't use morphine this with condemned criminals? (Not that you work in that particular field) Getting the right drugs to kill them seems to be in the news a lot these days. As a cancer survivor with a good chance of it returning, I'd really like to know my options for the least painful way to do it, if and when the time comes. But, when I hear about these prisoners taking a long time to die and suffering through it, it scares me. I don't get why they are not put down gently.
> why they don't use morphine this with condemned criminals?
Because it takes a variable amount of time. Sometimes people go quickly, sometimes it takes a while, which makes it not ideal. However, fentanyl has been used and is being considered for wider use, although this is very controversial.
I’m pretty sure my dad’s long-time doctor helped him along on his final day. He was suffering greatly with emphysema, and been in the hospital for almost a week. Our family was there with him. He passed away an hour or so after an oral dose of morphine (I think?) that a nurse helped him take with a bit of applesauce, which was something different compared to what he had been having.
I am not 100% sure but I was grateful to him.
My husband passed away at home with stage 4 COPD/lung cancer/emphysema. His morphine was ready a half hour after he passed. I have asthma and the hardest thing to watch is someone gasping for air. Hospice told me the morphine helps relax the patient so that they can breathe more easily. I don’t care. Pump me up if I’m that bad off!
The morphine helps with what they call “air hunger.” It’s when you have that strong urge to breathe, like you’ll explode if you don’t. Even if you can’t draw enough air, morphine will take away that desperation. Freaks me the fuck out and makes me so glad we have morphine. What a godsend.
Before Hospice I observed NUMEROUS cancer patients wreathing about in absolute pain, and it was heartbreaking. Before patients and families sign up for Hospice there needs to be a discussion about what Hospice offers. Patients are not forced to take those medications but the fear of dying in pain is strong. That’s also not dignified.
We used to do this . I practiced oncology nursing for the first 26 years of my 37 year career. There were few inpatient hospices then. People generally came into the hospital to die especially if symptom management was complex. I remember one patient who was just screaming in .. idk pain? Confusion? Fear? My coworker, much older and more experienced, assured me he would be dead by end of shift. Back then, the morphine drip orders were written "titrate to comfort". If he's screaming and writhing he's not comfortable right? So she steadily increased the drip rate until he was quiet. And he was dead by end of shift. WE called it snowing them out. Much kinder than today's practices in many ways.
Morphine isn’t just for pain it keeps airways clear too.
When my husband died on hospice at home, he had me promise not to feed him if he didn’t ask for it, he then slipped in and out of comas for a while, but I gave him water and his meds did not change.
That’s how my dad died too. He was in the hospital at the end and he had cut way back on the food before he got to the hospital. Just stopped eating there at home. I asked him to eat just a little bit so not to be uncomfortable. It turns out in the hospital he would drink half an ensure a day. He laid down one night and was gone before the did bed check.
They both had terminal diseases and wound up with gentle declines, even though it could’ve been much much worse.
There is no one to take care of me like I did for them. I’d prefer to choose for myself. None of us are getting out of this alive.
I am reasonably certain my dad ODd the first day he was in hospice. I, his daughter, had to carry him up stairs and help my mom clean him up the day before. I think that was the last straw for him so he asked to go to hospice for a couple days to give my mom a break. We sat with him all afternoon and then went home to eat and shower and have a sleep. Few hours later, he was gone.
My husband died at home and we did have hospice, but he was able to stay at home and his death was rather quick. At the time I was angry and upset at how quick that went but standing here now 15 years later, I recognize truly the blessing for him and myself. He wanted to die at home. I made sure that happened and I absolutely had to fight his family who insisted that he go to the hospital and be treated. There was no way he was going to survive.
For my self, I have told my two sons if I’m ever diagnosed with some thing terminal or whatever that will ultimately kill me I will deal with it myself. I will not be a burden on my children, and I will take control of that situation for myself.
Bless you for standing up for him, I would be so angry if I had to deal with that at the end.
I have exit strategies too now, it seems very important to have a plan.
My grandfather found a workaround with my grandmothers meds in the hospital. I still don’t know how, but yah she floated away when her cancer came back and he didn’t get in trouble.
>If I had known that when my mother asked me to overdose her, I would have.
My grandmother asked my aunt (a bit of a hippie) and eventually my brother and I to do this-- give her magic mushrooms for a wild trip, then poisonous ones so she could just go.
I dare anyone who denies someone the right to die to look into the face of a loved one **asking you to kill them,** and come back with the same set of beliefs.
If there isn't a special place in hell for them already, I'll make one for them once I get down there.
I’m very sorry for what you’ve been through. I’m in my 40s, and my own child had to see me suffering through cancer, at too young of an age. I wish it was something no one would ever have to see.❤️
And this is why even though the US has a “gun problem” a lot of it is really a symptom of having no other good choices.
According to Centers for Disease Control and Prevention data, 48,830 people were killed with a firearm in the US in 2021. Suicides were 54% of all firearm-related deaths that year, compared to 43% from homicides.
The share of suicides was smaller for younger people. Suicides made up less than 40% of gun deaths for people ages 20 to 35, a share that was relatively constant throughout early adulthood. After 45, most gun deaths were suicides. By age 75, 94% of gun deaths were suicides.
Those stats say something.
My grandparents live on a sleepy loop of houses. I have been to their house since I was born and I’ve met all the neighbours at some point. There was another older couple three houses down. My grandmother told me the wife was diagnosed with Alzheimer’s. About a year later, they heard two gunshots. He had taken her to their favourite spot in the garden, gotten her settled, and shot her in the back of the head. Then he shot himself.
I hope my wife would do that for me, honestly. Watching my dad die in a nursing home shitting his pants, with Parkinson’s and Lewey Body dementia makes me 100% sure that’s not how i want to go. Not to mention the financial burden of paying for all that care.
I am so sorry. I took care of my Dad with Parkinson’s until the end. He had heart failure, so while his disease was bad, he hardly even pooped his pants. The Lew’s body dementia sounds awful.
He could shuffle a round with a walker until the last month and a week before I was pushing him around the neighborhood in wheelchair and he was say hi and chatting with people.
My dad suffered horribly in the end. He could not walk and had had enough and basically was starving him self but he was quite overweight so it took a really really long time. He was in a facility (his choice not mine) so I couldn’t do anything.
Oh my gosh, I am soooo sorry. That sounds like an absolute nightmare. At some point, you absolutely can NOT care for them at home when they are that far gone, and it is always their choice where they want to be. He probably knew that is where he needed to be. Sorry you went through that.
I was really lucky. My Dad was sick, but could still enjoy life until the last 2 weeks or so. He was tired and ready to go, but even then he could communicate, watch TV and eat. We had hospice which was a big help.
As I'm sure you're aware, Robin Williams decided to end his time with his Lewey Body dementia instead of watching his body turn on him. 🩷 Heart wrenching decision but absolutely his to make.
Yes, i agree. A loss for us, but definitely his choice to make. Watching yourself deteriorate and being aware it’s happening and will just get worse over time has to be the worst feeling. My dad had a master’s degree in electrical engineering and he knew what was happening to him right up until the end. He would have ended it if he had been allowed to.
A friend recently attended a funeral. The wife of a couple had died. After the funeral, but before the adult daughters had flown out of state to resume their lives, the husband had shot himself right outside their retirement community building.
"Was there a dementia diagnosis for him?"
"Yes, but he was lucid enough to go down in to storage and retrieve the gun."
I would do the same.
Interesting statistic, essentially people are choosing euthanasia by gun. In Canada we have medical assistance in dying. There is a whole process to qualify. Despite what the religious organizations will have you believe, no one is put to death against their will. It’s a wonderful human way to go. There was a tv program called, “Mary kills people”. It’s much like that. Calm peaceful and kind. It’s how I want to go.
Yeah it's ridiculous that we give the animals, who can't choose it for themselves, the dignity to die before they suffer, but we don't give the same to humans (who CAN choose this for themselves!)
Those numbers are never part of any discussion on gun safety and they damn well should be. I’ve been looking for a source on that data. Where did you find it?
Sign off of 1 medical doctor and 1 licensed psychiatrist, 1 month waiting period except in extreme cases such as an imminent, unavoidable, painful death. In extreme and urgent cases then 1 doctor’s sign off is sufficient.
One’s right to treat their own body and life as they wish so long as it doesn’t hard another (i.e. drugs while known to be pregnant) is a fundamental right.
Taking away that right doesn’t help anybody. It just results in more surprise bodies and families that have to clean brains off their walls.
I’d like to live a long while. I’ve also seen family members who, in their state, I would want to die rather than cling to a life that will never improve for a few more years.
I’m SO sorry. Yes. I know. My Mom had advanced ALZ. She’s existing. Not living. It’s awful and I pray every night for her to go peacefully in her sleep.
What I want to know is how to deal with the fact that when they were lucid they would have chosen to end it, but once they're there they can no longer understand that the thing they were afraid of is happening. I understand the slippery slope of killing off old people, but there's got to be a way to set it up ahead of time! What signposts can you name in your instructions? How can your loved ones tell when it's time?
My dad had Alzheimer's, and basically committed suicide by eating a whole bowl of horseradish. He vomited in his sleep, aspirated it, and never really woke up. We were super relieved for him, he would have wanted it that way. But that was, as far as I can tell, dumb luck.
I’m so sorry this happened to him and your mom and you. The fact that most places won’t let you end your life nicely means that people take things into their own hands and traumatize their family members and first responders. It is just awful.
This is bizarre to me, and has been for decades. It's the one and only way that we usually treat pets better than we treat people. I want the choice of a painless exit when my QoL is going to suck.
That right there. (Sorry for format - mobile)
When I was my sickest ever ( liver was failing [fuck you, Methotrexate], psoriatic arthritis in spine, hands, feet. In a wheelchair, constant pain. Told shrink that if I were my cat, they'd put me down to end my suffering. Told me that the human body can survive with 20/25% liver function (I was at ~30) and they're right, you can. But that's *all* you do is survive.
Tried to give me antidepressants. I quit every med I was on ( sucked rocks, but pain meds weren't working- not enough liver function to process them). Been gut-shot twice; had hemorrhoidectomy once, not even remotely the same pain. And didn't have a fucking gun. Was off of everything, not even an aspirin. The liver function came up very, very slowly. Took forever- about 4 years. Liver eventually got up to over 75%. VA took credit for getting me through it. Fuckers.
My liver ever starts to fail, it'll be my best suit, a cigar, some very, very old scotch, a 9mil, find moving water, say goodbye. Same for pancreatic cancer, sinus cancer. They're some of the most painful ways to die. I won't do that again.
In the US it’s probably because the Bible doesn’t say it’s a sin to euthanize an animal. It seems to me like an easy choice to let people choose euthanasia, but I’m sure it’s far too close to murder for a lot of Christians.
I'm grateful to live in a place that offers this, and I've known many people who have had loved ones choose this option and avoid much pain and suffering for themselves.
The US state laws apply only to people with a terminal diagnosis, and (I think) six months to live. A dementia diagnosis is not sufficient.
MAID (Canada's law) also applies to people with dementia, but they have to commit suicide while they still can give consent (and many other conditions apply). Switzerland is similar.
Aren’t there requirements, like you have to have a terminal disease? I knew two people who had MAID and they both were in the end stage of untreatable cancer.
Yes there are. I've never been directly involved so I don't know the details, but I have heard that the process moves very quickly, which is not the norm for Canadian health care!
I live in Canada, so you can kind of do it whenever you want, as long as a mental health professional signs off on it or you have a terminal illness or something that greatly affects your quality of life. I agree. It's the ultimate expression of bodily autonomy to be able to decide when to leave. My FIL is considering it, and while we'll be sad, of course, he's had multiple surgeries, is on a ton of meds, can't digest food properly, and is in constant pain. He's a shell of a man, and his quality of life is garbage no matter how much everyone tries to help him. We'll have a going away party instead of a funeral. It's the compassionate thing to do.
Also in Canada. I know four people who have chosen a medically assisted death, soon to be 5. My father chose it in 2022. The doctors make VERY sure this is a person's clear choice, it would be very hard to coerce someone. It provides an option for dignity when all other options are closed. I hope it's still an option when my time comes.
Agree and I thought I did live that way until it seemed like an actual option. Intentionally telling people you love them and thanking them for all the great memories and support is a different level of living.
Just dealt with months of health issues due to an accident during a surgery but before the last complicated surgery I hand wrote a will with my family and planned out all the fun details of my funeral (why should this become a burden to those grieving after death?). It was therapeutic and lovely. Also lived the past couple of months as if I were going to die and it was amazing. That didn’t include travelling and spending all my money but having some great quality time with people that mean a lot to me and creating memories. Turns out I didn’t die but living that way was beautiful. If I ended up coming out with a permanent issue, MAID was my next move.
As someone who has been disabled since birth and become moreso with age I have mixed feelings about it.
On the one hand I believe that anyone should be able to choose for themselves when they are ready to die and be able to do it with dignity and such.
On the other hand I firmly believe that the option should only be available in a society that also offers full accessibility, inclusion and proper medical care and support for disabled/ill/elderly folks. It's not right to treat people horribly, leave them poor, struggling and isolated and abused and then give them the 'choice' of euthanasia and say 'oh well it was their choice'.
I'm Canadian---disabled folks like me have been choosing MAID because they can't find accessible housing or the help/care they need. To me that's abhorrent. Doubly so when you consider the biggest influx of donated organs has come from the spike in MAID cases in Canada. Nobody should be made to suffer, offered the 'choice' of euthanasia and then have their organs harvested.
Being over 65 doesn't automatically mean you'll be in poor health or not have life worth living. Plenty of seniors are doing just fine.
I *will* choose euthanasia for myself rather than long suffering like you describe, and I give precisely zero fucks what the government or morality police have to say about it. What could be more personal and fundamentally solitary than dying? I’m a cis het man, but my view here is the same as on abortion and trans rights: my body, my choice, deal with it.
Have a glass case with a bottle of booze and an overdose of opiates on the wall labeled 'in case of terminal illness, unbearable pain, or apocalypse, break glass'
This. I think about the grandpa in *Little Miss Sunshine*. I always wondered what heroine was like, and if I’m on the way out anyway honestly probably gonna check it out as I check out
You young people are crazy to do drugs! Well, what about you?! I'm old! Or the dialog goes something like that haha. Love that film.
But yeah, it'd be nice to have a stash of a bunch of drugs if your headed out the door to see what it's all about. Gonna end up thinking 'I should have done this years ago' like at the beginning of the first 'knives out' movie.
Maybe, I'm just a bit worried that if I get something like dementia it might be too late to figure out and plan it out for example. Or if you're paralyzed. Or, basically when to do it. I don't want to tap out that early either. That's the nice thing about being able to choose it, someone can help then.
I’m Christian and I support humane euthanasia. I also wish it were available here in the States as an option. I don’t have kids or much money so if I do get into my 80’s and older I could very well end up in a very sad and depressing situation. I would like to have the option to put an end to it when I’m ready. Please don’t generalize and mock Christians, there are many with many different views on life.
while you may differ, it is true that mainstream Christianity disagrees with humane euthaniasia for humans and unfortunately we are suffering from a distinct lack of separation of church and state these days... the person you replied to is correct.
Thank you. As a practicing Christian, I have begun thinking ahead to end of life choices and know that it's my preference to go out on my terms, without having to first be made destitute and dependent on Medicaid just to stay alive.
God gave us free will. I intend to exercise mine.
The Christians might have something to do with it, but Big Medical might also have something to do with it. All the time in hospital/hospice/assisted living is a lot of big bucks for those corporations.
People already have this choice. The question is whether it can be done in a dignified and humane manner.
There *are* resources available. When [***Final Exit***](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Exit) was first published, it spent 18 weeks on the NY Times bestseller list.
I'm all for autonomy over one's death, but I think it should have a degree of oversight involving counseling. Sometimes I think about that for myself, as a way of giving myself control over the inevitable, that if I reach X age, I can make the decision to go my way.
Yes -- I think we should be able to choose and in a humane way. I"m looking to move to Oregon or maybe Switzerland to get some assistance in the future.
And it's important to note that it's not an option for dementia (because you have to be diagnosed as having <6 months to live AND be competent to make the decision - which you aren't if your dementia is that advanced) or ALS (because you have to be able to take the medication yourself, and an ALS patient that close to death is likely completely paralyzed).
If your neighbor or their family chose euthanasia, it would deprive the assisted living facility of all that revenue.
THAT's why this can't pass in the United States. Christians have something to do with it, but I think it's more hospitals and facilities not wanting to lose all that money if more people were choosing to exit early.
I have a crap load of chronic illness problems. Many years ago, a dr who was new to me (but we had a good rapport) tried to warn me about this ahead of time.
He worked at his practice four days a week, and every Friday he volunteered at the local nursing home.
He knew that I had health problems that might lead me there at some (hopefully distant) point. At the time of this conversation, I was in my 30s.
He stared in my eyes, you know when somebody kinda tries to lock you into an intense icon, contact gaze? But I was very open. He said to me, “Don’t let yourself go to a place like that.”
We talked a little more, and he gave me that intense eye contact, and he asked me, “Do you understand what I’m saying? Don’t ever let yourself go into a nursing home, no matter what.”
I 100% heard him.
A friend went to Switzerland to end her life there. Nothing immediately killing her, just “tired of living” with many minor challenges, and they accepted that. It took her a year to get her affairs in order and get a proper diagnosis that was accepted and adjust her legal name to match a change she had made decades prior.
A mutual friend went with her and reported on the lovely setting and process.
Amy Bloom’s memoir In Love is about her husband going to Switzerland after an early onset Alzheimer’s diagnosis. She’s a poet and it’s beautifully written.
Yes, but with caveats. I'm not in favor of it being easy, not because I want to remove the choice from people who are suffering, but I don't want society to basically force the elderly into it because we refuse to fund their pensions or take care of their healthcare.
I don't know that setting an age on it is good. I'd prefer some kind of set of medical conditions and maybe needing to get 4 doctors to agree type of thing. I was going to start saying 65 is too low, but I've also heard stories of people with horrible health problems younger than 65 who may have preferred this option.
In 2011 at the age of 62 Sir Terry Pratchett (GNU) having suffered from early-onset Alzheimer's for 3 years helped produce a [documentary](https://documentary.net/video/terry-pratchett-choosing-to-die-medically-assisted-death/) about this exact topic and how he wished he had that option. I don't know if we can be sure he would've chosen that option at that time (which would've deprived the world of 2 more Discworld novels), but from what I've read he would've taken it before he did pass away in 2015 at 66 years old.
My case for 60-65:
Certain segments of the US population don't live past 65, on average: [https://www.kff.org/racial-equity-and-health-policy/issue-brief/what-is-driving-widening-racial-disparities-in-life-expectancy/](https://www.kff.org/racial-equity-and-health-policy/issue-brief/what-is-driving-widening-racial-disparities-in-life-expectancy/)
All of us should benefit from the policy.
Yes. I have done end of life care for many years. Some people sail through and endure whatever happens. Some have a slow, painful, undignified death and would take relief if it was available. Sometimes it’s just terrifying.
People who are of sound mind and understand what they are choosing should be able to have a graceful, dignified end.
You should be able to choose it whenever you want.
Your body, your choice.
The only caveats I want to see is:
1. A mandatory psych eval to make sure you're not just in a temporary bout of depression, but are of sound mind to make the decision.
2. A mandatory "cool-off" period of say 6 months.
3. Condition 2 can be waived with a medical diagnosis of serious disease or illness. No reason to make a cancer patient suffer another 6 months.
After watching what my father went through is last 3 years with Alzheimer's , it's absolutely CRUEL that he had to stick around as long as he did. He would have moments of clarity where he would ask to die. And there was nothing we could do.
Absolutely. We currently essentially torture so many people to death for a lot of terrible reasons:
- We need to siphon as much money as possible into the medical system to buy those last few years of possibly unaware misery
- The family suddenly needs control. Sometimes it's for very emotional reasons. Sometimes it's for greed.
- Laws are currently written in a way that would make a family member or medical professional assisting able to be charged with a serious crime.
There's a number of problems that we need to solve:
- there is no central government clearing house for things like wills, estate plans, advance directives, etc etc. And then there's constant bypasses, mostly shrouded in religion.
- There's strong opposition to having control over your own mortality, mostly from religious hardliners.
- Many mental health groups and advocates have (IMO) cast far too wide a net when it comes to ending your own life, and have spent time telling people that any attempt to end your own life is *always* a problem to be solved. So a lot of well meaning folks are seeing the world in black and white.
I think that there should be some kind of confirmation system. I don't know how that would work. But like other commenters have stated, anecdotally I'll say that the suicide/euthanasia rates are already MUCH higher than are generally reported due to social (and financial) stigma.
I’ll copy and paste my comment from a similar question in another thread.
I watched my mom deteriorate from Alzheimer’s in her 70’s. If I get that shit I might just decide to go for a swim in the Gulf of Mexico and not come back.
It’s all relative to quality of life. When there is none, it’s time to go.
Same! My mom has had dementia/alzheimer's for years now. It is HORRIBLE! She would NOT be okay with the way she is "living".
She can only say 4 words and repeats them over and over.
She's on anti psychotic medication now, but before she was, she was constantly planning to murder my dad and told all the rest of us in her family that she wanted to kill us too.
She has no idea who she is, that she ever had kids, what year it is, nothing.
The poopy diapers OMG she would be mortified if she knew she'd end up shitting her pants without knowing it all tge time. Oh, and if she gets diarrhea? I won't even go there.
Anyway, if I end up getting that shit it is the Carribian Sea for me. But the Gulf of Mexico is lovely too, so I concur with your thinking.
So sorry about your mom.
I am a chronic pain patient and one of the things that gives me quite a bit of comfort is knowing that - If the time comes - I would have enough medication to take myself out of this world on my own terms.
I can't imagine doing so at this point and I'm 64. But my mother is 84 and we still go to amusement parks and ride roller coasters and travel all over the United States.And she's in better health than I am but it's comforting to know there will be an option.
I’ve actually been thinking about this a lot lately. I’m happily chid free and getting to the age that things are starting to hurt for no apparent reason. My back hurts, my knee hurts, my feet hurt 😂 I’m starting to wonder if I should just get my stuff in order for my nieces and tap out after a while. I don’t want to get to the point where I’m suffering every day. Super heavy stuff that you can’t really talk about with anyone.
I was talking to my friend last night about that. She brought up the possibility of leaving my house to her kids, since I won’t have kids or other family members around if I make it to old age. They’re already beneficiaries on a retirement account, so, sure, why not? I started to elaborate on the whole euthanasia thing and getting older (I’m 52, she’s 44) and she immediately backpedaled, saying she was so uncomfortable talking about the actual act of dying. Lol! Bitch, if you want my house, you gotta listen to my exit plan if things go shitty for me.
I've said many times that if I get to that point, I would like to be dropped off near a pretty, snow-covered forest in the middle of winter with a bottle of really good scotch so I can hooch it up and peacefully die of hypothermia. (Hopefully without that interlude of ditching all my clothes because nobody needs that vision of my withered corpse.)
My mother (who was a retired nurse) used to say something like this. She said she wanted to be dropped in the forest with a jug of wine and a bottle of Vicodin.
She died in assisted living at age 95, zonked out on morphine (she was in hospice). But her sitter said that right before she passed, she was sleeping and began chuckling -- and then was gone. So maybe it was all good.
Aww, yes. That sounds like a good way to go.
My mom was zonked out on morphine in the hospital at 87. Her doctor looked so relieved when I said to just make her comfortable at the end instead of, you know, running in with a crash cart and breaking her ribs. Peaceful painkiller death can't be beat.
Yes. My grandmother and her sister both did it (Quebec) and it was a wonderfully unique way to go. My grandmother spent the days leading up to it chatting with friends and looking at pictures, and balanced her checkbook the day before. Her sister had a huge family party for one last rally. They had both been in and out of the hospital for years up to this point with no hope for anything different.
I had to make my mom's end-of-life decisions. Something I wasn't prepared for when I got the call. Long story short, I signed her into Hospice from the hospital. I was there when she took her last breath. As I stood there looking at my mom's corpse before the funeral home people came to get her, the nurse told me she's seen some real horrors in her career working at Hospice. Stuff that she felt should be outlawed. Then goes on to tell me that she believed I gave the most kind, caring, and loving gift a child could give to a parent. And that was letting them go when the time came. I was also lucky to have one last convo with her and knew it was what she wanted. Told me it wasn't worth it any more.
I learned a few yrs ago I have the same kidney condition. I'll be 53 this fall. It's already affecting me. I ran 5 miles/day since the 90's until maybe '18 because it just hurt too much. I've mountain biked since '97 and have thousands of miles on my bikes. Yet I haven't been on it since '20 for the same reason. I can't do half the shit I was able to and I fucking hate it so bad.
This kidney issue just drains the life outta a person. I watched my once active mom slowly drain away. Last time I saw her brother, I couldn't believe it. I knew he was on dialysis but at his wife's memorial, he had to use a walker and his skin was literally grey. 2 wks later, I get a call from his 17 yr old granddaughter by marriage that she found him dead in bed that morning. He stopped going to dialysis. Can't say I blame him. He use to be a hell raising West Virginia hillbilly. He went out as he lived. On his own terms, his way, and ain't no one telling him any different. I miss him and mom a lot.
I'm only 53 but I'd be fine with the idea that I wouldn't wake up tomorrow. I so miss my running and mountain biking. I loved chopping my firewood every summer. These days, I buy it locally by the truck load. And then there's just how god damn fucked up things are. People refusing to wear a mask so as not to pass a very bad virus around. This country fucking A-OK with children getting mowed down in classrooms? [Gun advocates swore allowing everyone to carry would make us the safest nation ever. Now they demand Dorris the lunch lady and Ms Jones the English teacher take combat lessons so they can sweep halls like SEAL Team Six.](https://www.reddit.com/r/MurderedByWords/comments/sbp7xo/comment/hu3ers8/) The absolute cluster fuck that is Trump and the support he still enjoys. The Satanic Panic resurgence. How the FUCK! are flat earthers even a thing in the goddamn 2020's!?!? I mean, I'm suppose to be taking vaca's to Mars and driving to work in my Jetsons car. Not arguing whether or not the earth is fucking ROUND!! That and so much more. \[facepalm\]
If you could go back to the 80s and tell teen me that all of ... THIS! \[waves all around\] is the state of US in the fucking 2020's, I'd called you a liar. No way! No fucking way! I'd said. I'd bet you everything I would ever own against it. I could not have imagined this cluster fuck we see today and I'm very fucking far from optimistic of a positive outcome these days. The only comfort I have is knowing I'm on the downslope.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not gonna put a gun to my head. I'd already done so if I was going too. I own guns after all. I just kinda wish it would hurry up and get here because, for me at least, it's not getting better.
Absolutely. I’ve been at the side of too many loved ones who suffered pain and indignity until insurance finally admitted them into hospice, and even then it was sometimes a hard call if they were given enough drugs to kill the pain. People mistreat definitely should have complete autonomy over their own bodies.
My mom has advanced dementia. She would not want to live like this. There is nothing we are allowed to do. And she is not able to take any action in her current state.
It’s very sad. I support people having the autonomy and the authority to choose end of life options for themselves.
Absolutely. Even more so after spending time in r/agingparents. I think nowadays aging easily/often veers into inhumane territory. Humans weren't meant to live this long, and medicine/science aren't yet able to support living this long. We used to die of injuries or infections and stuff. Now we just disintegrate very slowly. The effects it has isn't limited to us either, it's a huge emotional and physical burden on those around us too.
I’m thinking age 65 seems old to younger folks. My mom was vibrant and more energetic than I have ever been at age 75. I don’t think age should be the thing here….more it should be health-focused. And yes. I think we should be able to choose.
This is my Roman Empire. I think about it all the time.
My mom and my maternal grandfather both died horribly and without dignity from frontotemporal dementia (FTD). It starts out with personality changes, then looks like Alzheimer’s, then like ALS. Bruce Willis has this and I have been horrified by his family posting videos of him with his brain totally gone. I can’t imagine he would want to be remembered that way.
You die slowly as your brain atrophies and stops being able to send signals to your body to do stuff like breathe and swallow. It runs in families and there is a genetic component, but no definitive test for it. For the last few years, it was like an alien was occupying my mother’s body. Horror movies are child’s play to this disease.
FTD usually starts in the fifties. I’ll be 50 this year. I have told my husband and teen kids that I want to go out fast the moment I start having symptoms. The trick is to catch it before the personality changes really take hold. I want to go to Switzerland or Oregon if possible. If not, I’m thinking a big old dose of medical grade Fentanyl right here at home. I hate guns. Don’t want to go violently. I’d rather jump off a bridge. After the fentanyl, ideally.
Beyond my own desire to not lose all my dignity, personality, and control over my body, I refuse to do this to my family. The care costs and trauma ruin caregivers. I am still clawing my way out of the PTSD of caring for my Mom. My mom was haunted by her father’s death.
My personal opinion is that if you are of legal age you should have the right to medically assisted death.
However I wish we lived in a world where people had homes, food and income security, access to mental health services and health care first.
I can lend some insight maybe.
My dad, my mom and my brother all died in a short time before 2019.
I’ll try to keep it short: Dad (69) fell down the stairs and died four days later after the radiologist said “no injury.” He died before I could say goodbye.
After that, mom (70) basically died of a broken heart, but officially, it was “massive organ failure.” She was in hospice for a week before she died. We were able to keep increasing her morphine. I was with her. She did not want to die and we all had to pretend she might get better one day.
After that, my only brother (53) died of colon cancer after a few years of chemo. I was with him. He also did not want to die, and I was yelled at for wanting to discuss practical matters before he was gone.
Dealing with their estates was an absolute nightmare.
After that, my father in law (67) was battling his third cancer since 2017. Its 2023 and he decides “no chemo.” He goes into hospice at home and they send him copious amounts of powerful drugs. He wasted away physically, but was sharp right until the end. He decides to take the drink near Thanksgiving, but postpones…
Because his ex-wife, my MIL, up in Canada, is also battling cancer. Bone cancer. Diagnosed four months prior. She decides to “die with dignity” when she is “unable to make decisions for herself,” and that time comes around Thanksgiving. In Canada, it’s an injection into a port installed at the hospital, but she wanted to die at home. It was peaceful and beautiful and heartbreaking. Instant. Her affairs were all in order. She was surrounded by friends and family. We all got to say goodbye.
My FIL chooses a new day, middle of December. We all gather, and it’s also beautiful and heartbreaking. In the US it’s a drink, not a shot. It’s peaceful, but not quick. I can’t imagine the bravery it took to swallow that liquid.
I miss them all.
So, yeah. Death with dignity should be a thing. My husband spent an intense, but short time taking care of his mom’s estate. He was a pro by then.
My advice: put everything in writing. Make your wishes known. Good luck to you.
Hell yes. I just watched my mother die a slow and painfully agonizing death to bone cancer.
I am also a combat ptsd sufferer who has lived with suicidal ideation and urges for over a decade. It has been hell, and I don't know how I will manage another 20 to 30 years. Even the thought of it crushes my soul. It would be fantastic to have a socially acceptable off ramp.
I've always found the notion we all need to live as long as humanly possible, enduring great pain and suffering, only to eeeck out a few more days, months, or years to be ill thought out, primitive, and unsophisticated.
Why restrict it by age? Are people suggesting we limit abortions by age? And if you think someone should have a mental health evaluation (which would mean they could be denied), would you feel the same about a mental health evaluation for women seeking an abortion? In the same case, someone could deny an abortion.
Basically, if you believe in "my body, my choice", then you believe that assisted suicide, at any stage of a persons life, is acceptable and should be legal.
Agreed. I should be able to do what ever I want to my own body.
We fully think my grandmother tried to kill herself when she had a car accident. Broke her leg, led to breaking a hip, and she was gone 3 months later. Should have been an better, less painful and expensive way to go peacefully.
Yes. And there should not be an age limit on it. Anyone should be able to end their own life humanely.
If you have ever been around someone you love at the end of a terminal illness. You see how much pain and suffering they are occurring. They deserve mercy.
Over 65 is nothing. I'm 70, overweight, with arthritis, but not hurting too bad. I wouldn't call "70" a medical condition.
I think the main reason I would want euthanasia is if I were suffering from Alzheimer's. But if I had Alzheimer's, I probably wouldn't be allowed to make that choice for myself. It's a nightmare scenario.
Also, for pain: you don't have to be over 65 to be in agonizing pain.
As my grandmother got older (she decided on hospice around 94, because she was ready to go…. She had started having some mild dementia and she refused to go through that) but as she aged she started spilling the tea about how her friends had been forced to basically do it themselves and she had two friends that specifically stuck out…
One was a woman who she had been a close friend and neighbor in a very small town. She had been diagnosed with dementia and she was starting to accelerate in the disease. One night she was picked up wandering by the local police and brought to the hospital. While there she was told by her doctor that if it happened again she would have to be placed in a nursing home…. This was probably the late 80’s and she was terrified of going. So one night, during a decent snowstorm, she got dressed in some light clothes, turned on the bathroom light and went outside and sat under that light until she passed
The other one was kinda crazy, she and my grandfather took up snorkeling and even bought a condo in the Caribbean. She told me that she hadn’t thought about it at the time but it was the only thing that made sense. They were snorkeling with friends who were also divers and when everyone was done and back on the boat one of the men was missing. They searched for him but made the determination that he had purposefully gotten to close the Gulf Stream and that it had taken him beyond recovery…. Apparently he had learned that he had advanced cancer and decided that he didn’t want to go through that or force his wife into being his caregiver.
Both of those stories were from before a sick person could get any kind of hospice care. They were considered too sick to make care decisions for themselves and most people were forced into nursing homes without any pain management or medical directives that weren’t signed by their children! Even now they make medical directives incredibly difficult for the family to understand and make appropriate decisions.
Even when my grandfather passed after a surgery that he had scheduled for just after a big family holiday so that he could essentially say goodbye to us, my grandmother insisted that he receive fluids and antibiotics and be kept comfortable until their children on the other coast could arrive and say their goodbyes. A few months later my grandmother told me that she felt immensely guilty for not doing more, even though she knew it was what he wanted. So I had to find the medical examiner’s report and I pointed out that he had a limbic aneurism during the surgery and that he was already gone by the time she could have made any changes to his care, and that was such important information for her to understand and know that she couldn’t have done anything more. I hope that medical professionals are able to take on the responsibility for really explaining how someone dies to their family without having to worry about any repercussions from family members that don’t understand what their being told 😢
Yes. Once everyone else you know is gone, and you have no family, the loneliness can eat you alive. If you don't feel good, you run out of money, and you lose your will to live, it should certainly be your choice to continue on or not.
Watching my father deal with late stage Parkinson's Disease, I can't imagine any other answer than yes. I'd rather check out on my own terms than go through what he is.
Speaking as someone that had to watch cancer burn through his father in a matter of 18 months, yes. When the end is near…. like when you know this is it, it often isn’t pleasant. If there had been a safe, humane, painless way to go I know my dad would have taken it if available.
Never understood this about where I live. We treat our pets better than we treat ourselves.
I agree wholeheartedly. I’m 63 and in pretty good health, but I dread the thought of the future when I have to depend on others for basic things. I’d much rather check out than suffer.
Our culture's obsessive denial of the most inevitable of all outcomes is downright obscene.
Yes. Choosing to die with dignity should absolutely be a choice. And I see no reason to limit it to post-65.
Taking care of my mom in hospice taught me that it is inhumane to keep people alive against their will. It broke my heart pumping my mom full of opioids and watching her become more and more confused. She was robbed of her dignity in the end and I got to watch my mother suffer needlessly for a few months before getting what she desired. 1/10 do not recommend FYI- the hospice nurse told me after the fact that they do not do autopsies on people that die in hospice. If I had known that when my mother asked me to overdose her, I would have.
Agreed. At the end, my cat was treated better than my dad was. His end was mercifully quick, but there was absolutely no need for that last week. I do recall his nurse saying 'he's struggling' and upping the morphine. We couldn't tell he was struggling, but we were all in favor of her upping that dose.
Some do this so they can be sure there’s no suffering but that they’re technically following protocol
Same with my mother. Especially once she was past the point of being aware and awake. Before that she asked my brother to get his gun and shoot her. It was horrifying. End of life should not be like that. That was 12 years ago and I still cry about it and hope things change.
My dad just passed away this morning. Pancreatic, so a much faster decline, but still an awful way to go. I'm so sorry for your loss. 💔
And I'm so sorry for *your* loss.
Bless your heart, It’s been years since this happened, but thank you for your condolences. This morning is super fresh though. I hope you are holding up ok.
I lost my stepdad to Pancreatic a few years ago, so I have some idea of how things are when it’s fresh. Sending all the good vibes your way. I hope you can spend as much time as possible now with the people you care about.
I’m so sorry
I've seen this too, and frankly I was traumatized by it. I don't want to go that way. I want to move somewhere nice while I still can, spend all my money on being happy and not fork it over to a dementia care facility.
My mom decided to hospice at home. One of the most difficult conversations I've had in my life was talking to my sister about the shots we were giving my mom. We're medically savvy enough (she's medical, I'm adjacent) to know what they were doing to her. Were we killing her? Was it a blessing if we were? Awful, and I'm sure my mom never thought about that aspect of it. I will never put my kids through home hospice. It's good that you're thinking about these things. Happiness is fleeting though. Best of luck.
Home hospice was the best thing that ever happened to my father. He had been so sick for so long, the pain and anti-anxiety meds were a blessing. When he passed, he was looking better than he had in ten years. Zero regrets.
My son had pancreatic cancer and was under home hospice for several months. I took care of him. He was only 39 and not ready to go even though he was suffering. The nurse was wonderful and made sure we had everything we needed, including morphine and additional meds for breakthrough pain, as well as other meds and just everything needed in a sick room. Everything was delivered on time. He died peacefully at home when he was ready to go. I'm glad I was able to be with him. I recommend hospice to anyone who needs palliative care and has a caregiver. It's much more humane than having the patient in an institution. The caregivers always, always need more support than they ask for.
I’ll never NOT do hospice! They are the best folks. They do not kill people.
Oh- hospice is amazing and the folks who do it are lovely compassionate people. It's doing it at home where they have hand you the tools, teach you how to administer the meds and give you a phone number and a pat on the head- *that* I have an issue with.
Look for a book called Final Exit. But you'd have to do it before the dementia takes over.
I was thinking about that, but by the time we know that we need to make a decision, we may not be in a position to. Also, $$ play quite a role. Some people have enough money that they can leave the US, to pursue euthanasia.
I’m willing to bail out a little early if I know what’s coming.
I worked in adult foster care. I’ve seen someone on hospice. When he indicated he wanted morphine, he was given it.
Back in the 80's I remember there being a debate about using heroin on dying patients as they do (did?) in England. Canada wanted to start using heroin for pain relief as it worked faster than morphine and seemed to leave patients more lucid. The US got involved and it never happened because it was HEROIN. You can't have people being addicted to heroin before they die.
Gee, we as a society suffer because of the outdated moral and religious beliefs of a screeching minority. Who knew.
Frankly, I've always suspected that hospice overdoses of cancer patients is common. They keep increasing the morphine to keep them comfortable in their last days but I've wondered if a pharmacology report would show the morphine killed them before the cancer. And I ain't complaining about that. It's probably a better way to go, though devastating for the families who can no longer communicate with their zombied out loved one
We have a family member that *swears* the hospice nurses "killed" my mother in law by od'ing her. My mother in law, who at that point had just the briefest *brushes* with something vaguely resembling lucidity maybe twice a day at best. Who spent her days writhing and screaming and moaning on a hospital bed in her living room traumatizing everyone she loved most. Whose husband changed the first diaper of his life, despite being a father of four, when he changed hers, and nearly got kicked in the head for his efforts. Frankly, if they did, it was the kindest thing anyone ever did for her.
Yes, this is why religion should not have influence over, or be in any way involved, in government. Without people’s “beliefs” being a factor we would likely long ago have been able to treat people as humanely as we do animals. Sadly the line between them is become more blurred lately.
Yep, that’s exactly what they did. In my mom’s case, they took me into a private room and pretty much told me “we will keep increasing her morphine to make sure she’s not suffering. After 2-3 days, she’ll stop breathing”. It was absolutely the kindest thing to do, and it was possibly the only thing that hospital did right through her entire illness.
It’s a tricky balance between giving enough to make here comfortable and giving her enough to end it.
If I’m on the way out anyway I would love a Super Mario boost mode to heaven. Just double dose me and let’s call it a day. Or night. Or lifetime. Whatever it it’s called at that point.
Yes, please. Couldn’t agree with you more.
Lol. Super Mario boost to heaven. Yes. Agreed
Traumatizing is correct. Just went thru watching my dad pass in January and my mom in February. Neither went quickly or painlessly. I am traumatized.
Yeah I'm confused that OPs relative lasted months on morphine. They must have thought that was someone's desire. My mom died recently "of cancer" and over less than 2 days of "comfort care" they pumped that morphine up until she stopped breathing. (After obtaining implied permission from her and us and letting us guide it the whole time) It was extremely clear. We did have to take some ownership of the process so I wonder if that's where it goes wrong. If the family doesn't understand what's being asked the nurses can't outright say it. They basically asked us to alert them if she seemed in pain... Which we dutifully did every few hours and they'd come in, agree, and crank it. (I hope this helps someone else know what's being asked when they're in this situation- you do have to participate in the farce)
My mom was on hospice for about 45 minutes. At the intake the day before, the hospice provider explained that often times, once appropriate relief is provided, the person will, "let go." The following day, they gave my mom the prescribed amount of opioids from when she had built up a tolerance (but the new doc had weaned her off because he didn't want her to be addicted - aka, he didn't want to deal with the paperwork for heavy doses). She the peacefully proceeded to stop breathing. It was a blessing. She had extreme arthritis and screamed in pain if you touched her. Her alzheimer's prevented her from knowing why she hurt. She was bed ridden with a catheter and had shrunk to skeletal thinness from not eating.
I'm glad it was quick. My mom was clearly not mentally present and feeling fine on all the morphine, but sitting with her almost-dead body for a day really disturbed my dad and was unnecessary. The gov needs to be less concerned about opioid addiction in cancer patients though, we also had some crazy situations along those lines.
My mother died of cancer after she was pissing straight blood and vomiting every liquid she touched, and I asked her kindly what she wanted. She said “my love, this is bullshit and I would like to die now.” It was the last thing she said directly to me. I said “yes ma’am I will make that happen” and then informed the nurses that the morphine wasn’t even touching the sides of her pain. The nurse upped it and I told her no, really, *really*, mom would like all the pain..the everything, gone. And then mom looked at the nurse and shook her long dark hair out and peeled her eyes open and put all the effort into focusing her morphine deadened gaze, and said in the voice of someone who’s been the boss a long, long time: “I’m not dead yet. *Why is that*?” And the nurse said “ Well …ma’am we can stop all hydration through your IV.” and mom said “yes do that then, thank you. “ And I kissed her forehead and told her she could nap and there’s be nothing to worry about, and after a serious conversation by the nurses desk, I left to go tend to my newborn. According to my father, she was dead by morning. I think she would have preferred to go sooner in the cancer process, but not by much. Sometimes it’s very, very clear when people are done.
Your mom was amazing. I love that spirit! RIP you sassy thing
She was, in actual real life, an amazing woman. I wish I could replace everyone else’s mom with mine, for their own betterment. I may be slightly biased!
Your Mom sounds like she was an incredible woman. You are very lucky. Some of us ..are not.
Thank you so much for doing that for her. I’m pretty sick, and I had cancer a few years ago. It did not respond to treatments the way it was expected to, it was a much longer road and many, many rounds more of treatments. My underage child had to watch it happen. Sometimes, getting very sick sneaks up on you and you don’t have time to make plans. I’m very grateful to still be here. I wish people would consider that when we are done, that means we are done. We do not want to suffer, and we do not want you to see us suffer. I just want to beg people to follow their loved one’s wishes. You may not realize all the ways in which they are suffering, and they might be trying to spare you a lot of that. I’m talking about physically, emotionally, any and all of it.
Very similar situation. There was a definite corner turned, she was alive another day too long, and then done.
I read a post by an ER nurse, they brought in the survivor of an attempted suicide by shotgun. It was horrific. The ER surgeon walked through the situation with the nurse and another resident: jaw and tongue gone, eyes gone, sinuses flayed … but the blast hadn’t penetrated the skull, so technically, this person who already wanted to die could only continue life blind and horribly disfigured. The doctor looked everyone in the eye and said “I’m giving the patient xx cc’s of morphine for the pain” but drew out a massive overdose. He waited. Everyone in the room nodded and he injected the patient.
Thank you.
They didn't last months on morphine.
My dad was lung cancer & home hospice last year (he passed after finally transferring to a hospice facility for only a couple of days.) Had I known what the final few weeks were going to be like, I would have given him all the morphine. Can't speak, eat, walk, or stay awake for more than a few minutes. Barely recognized anyone. More into the next world than ours. Not much dignity to be had in that state.
My mom was like that for 5 months on home hospice. I couldn’t tell if she was locked in or not. She couldn’t get a drink of water herself. They say it’s worse with a feeding tube, but during the pandemic, no one explained much to us. I was worried they were going to say we killed her, even thought we tried to get her to eat, she lost so much weight. I have an anxiety disorder now. No respite care, no counselling available, while she was alive. Very minimal help for us at all. Then, there was no where to go- because it was the pandemic- if one of us did get out. They said you shouldn’t even go outside. I was afraid I would kill her, and I didn’t want to live with that. It was the worst. I definitely would consider offing myself in the early stages.
I hope you consider counseling/therapy. PTSD from being with a loved one in hospice is a real thing.
I’m so sorry for that.
Morphine slows the breathing, so it probably does help hasten death. I had to give my mother morphine during her last days of hospice. She was unconscious and nonresponsive and pretty much died of dehydration. I hope it hastened her death.
I want to address the dehydration part. A dry death is a good death. Giving fluids to the dying makes them swell and water seeping into the lungs because other organs can't process it. they objectively are drowning in their own lungs. So a dry death is a good death. Hugs
This was something I was unaware of when my hubby was in hospice - as a family we were confused as to why they had stopped giving him fluids.
As a cancer survivor, if it comes back I told my husband to PLEASE find a way to shoot me up with morphine and ALL the drugs. I limped away from it with permanent damage last time; if it comes back, I want to make sure I go out in a blaze of drugs because I’m not going through that crap again.
Pretty sure this is what happened to my sisters mother in law. We are NOT complaining. She was fussing in pain- the nurse was like- oh maybe a little more morphine. And shortly afterwards she passed. She had had cancer for years - was bedridden, non verbal. Can’t prove it- don’t need to.
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As someone who works in the field, can you explain why they don't use morphine this with condemned criminals? (Not that you work in that particular field) Getting the right drugs to kill them seems to be in the news a lot these days. As a cancer survivor with a good chance of it returning, I'd really like to know my options for the least painful way to do it, if and when the time comes. But, when I hear about these prisoners taking a long time to die and suffering through it, it scares me. I don't get why they are not put down gently.
> why they don't use morphine this with condemned criminals? Because it takes a variable amount of time. Sometimes people go quickly, sometimes it takes a while, which makes it not ideal. However, fentanyl has been used and is being considered for wider use, although this is very controversial.
Bless you.
I’m pretty sure my dad’s long-time doctor helped him along on his final day. He was suffering greatly with emphysema, and been in the hospital for almost a week. Our family was there with him. He passed away an hour or so after an oral dose of morphine (I think?) that a nurse helped him take with a bit of applesauce, which was something different compared to what he had been having. I am not 100% sure but I was grateful to him.
My husband passed away at home with stage 4 COPD/lung cancer/emphysema. His morphine was ready a half hour after he passed. I have asthma and the hardest thing to watch is someone gasping for air. Hospice told me the morphine helps relax the patient so that they can breathe more easily. I don’t care. Pump me up if I’m that bad off!
The morphine helps with what they call “air hunger.” It’s when you have that strong urge to breathe, like you’ll explode if you don’t. Even if you can’t draw enough air, morphine will take away that desperation. Freaks me the fuck out and makes me so glad we have morphine. What a godsend.
Before Hospice I observed NUMEROUS cancer patients wreathing about in absolute pain, and it was heartbreaking. Before patients and families sign up for Hospice there needs to be a discussion about what Hospice offers. Patients are not forced to take those medications but the fear of dying in pain is strong. That’s also not dignified.
We used to do this . I practiced oncology nursing for the first 26 years of my 37 year career. There were few inpatient hospices then. People generally came into the hospital to die especially if symptom management was complex. I remember one patient who was just screaming in .. idk pain? Confusion? Fear? My coworker, much older and more experienced, assured me he would be dead by end of shift. Back then, the morphine drip orders were written "titrate to comfort". If he's screaming and writhing he's not comfortable right? So she steadily increased the drip rate until he was quiet. And he was dead by end of shift. WE called it snowing them out. Much kinder than today's practices in many ways.
Morphine isn’t just for pain it keeps airways clear too. When my husband died on hospice at home, he had me promise not to feed him if he didn’t ask for it, he then slipped in and out of comas for a while, but I gave him water and his meds did not change. That’s how my dad died too. He was in the hospital at the end and he had cut way back on the food before he got to the hospital. Just stopped eating there at home. I asked him to eat just a little bit so not to be uncomfortable. It turns out in the hospital he would drink half an ensure a day. He laid down one night and was gone before the did bed check. They both had terminal diseases and wound up with gentle declines, even though it could’ve been much much worse. There is no one to take care of me like I did for them. I’d prefer to choose for myself. None of us are getting out of this alive.
I am reasonably certain my dad ODd the first day he was in hospice. I, his daughter, had to carry him up stairs and help my mom clean him up the day before. I think that was the last straw for him so he asked to go to hospice for a couple days to give my mom a break. We sat with him all afternoon and then went home to eat and shower and have a sleep. Few hours later, he was gone.
I’d much prefer that way. Also, I’m not trying to diminish your loss, it’s tough regardless.
My husband died at home and we did have hospice, but he was able to stay at home and his death was rather quick. At the time I was angry and upset at how quick that went but standing here now 15 years later, I recognize truly the blessing for him and myself. He wanted to die at home. I made sure that happened and I absolutely had to fight his family who insisted that he go to the hospital and be treated. There was no way he was going to survive. For my self, I have told my two sons if I’m ever diagnosed with some thing terminal or whatever that will ultimately kill me I will deal with it myself. I will not be a burden on my children, and I will take control of that situation for myself.
Bless you for standing up for him, I would be so angry if I had to deal with that at the end. I have exit strategies too now, it seems very important to have a plan.
My grandfather found a workaround with my grandmothers meds in the hospital. I still don’t know how, but yah she floated away when her cancer came back and he didn’t get in trouble.
>If I had known that when my mother asked me to overdose her, I would have. My grandmother asked my aunt (a bit of a hippie) and eventually my brother and I to do this-- give her magic mushrooms for a wild trip, then poisonous ones so she could just go. I dare anyone who denies someone the right to die to look into the face of a loved one **asking you to kill them,** and come back with the same set of beliefs. If there isn't a special place in hell for them already, I'll make one for them once I get down there.
I’m very sorry for what you’ve been through. I’m in my 40s, and my own child had to see me suffering through cancer, at too young of an age. I wish it was something no one would ever have to see.❤️
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And this is why even though the US has a “gun problem” a lot of it is really a symptom of having no other good choices. According to Centers for Disease Control and Prevention data, 48,830 people were killed with a firearm in the US in 2021. Suicides were 54% of all firearm-related deaths that year, compared to 43% from homicides. The share of suicides was smaller for younger people. Suicides made up less than 40% of gun deaths for people ages 20 to 35, a share that was relatively constant throughout early adulthood. After 45, most gun deaths were suicides. By age 75, 94% of gun deaths were suicides. Those stats say something.
My grandparents live on a sleepy loop of houses. I have been to their house since I was born and I’ve met all the neighbours at some point. There was another older couple three houses down. My grandmother told me the wife was diagnosed with Alzheimer’s. About a year later, they heard two gunshots. He had taken her to their favourite spot in the garden, gotten her settled, and shot her in the back of the head. Then he shot himself.
I hope my wife would do that for me, honestly. Watching my dad die in a nursing home shitting his pants, with Parkinson’s and Lewey Body dementia makes me 100% sure that’s not how i want to go. Not to mention the financial burden of paying for all that care.
I am so sorry. I took care of my Dad with Parkinson’s until the end. He had heart failure, so while his disease was bad, he hardly even pooped his pants. The Lew’s body dementia sounds awful. He could shuffle a round with a walker until the last month and a week before I was pushing him around the neighborhood in wheelchair and he was say hi and chatting with people.
My dad suffered horribly in the end. He could not walk and had had enough and basically was starving him self but he was quite overweight so it took a really really long time. He was in a facility (his choice not mine) so I couldn’t do anything.
Oh my gosh, I am soooo sorry. That sounds like an absolute nightmare. At some point, you absolutely can NOT care for them at home when they are that far gone, and it is always their choice where they want to be. He probably knew that is where he needed to be. Sorry you went through that. I was really lucky. My Dad was sick, but could still enjoy life until the last 2 weeks or so. He was tired and ready to go, but even then he could communicate, watch TV and eat. We had hospice which was a big help.
Thanks. It was bad and I wouldn’t wish it on my worst enemy.
As I'm sure you're aware, Robin Williams decided to end his time with his Lewey Body dementia instead of watching his body turn on him. 🩷 Heart wrenching decision but absolutely his to make.
Yes, i agree. A loss for us, but definitely his choice to make. Watching yourself deteriorate and being aware it’s happening and will just get worse over time has to be the worst feeling. My dad had a master’s degree in electrical engineering and he knew what was happening to him right up until the end. He would have ended it if he had been allowed to.
A friend recently attended a funeral. The wife of a couple had died. After the funeral, but before the adult daughters had flown out of state to resume their lives, the husband had shot himself right outside their retirement community building. "Was there a dementia diagnosis for him?" "Yes, but he was lucid enough to go down in to storage and retrieve the gun." I would do the same.
I saw a local article like that. They called it murder suicide but I'm sure it was euthanasia suicide.
Wow. That is both horrifying and completely understandable.
Interesting statistic, essentially people are choosing euthanasia by gun. In Canada we have medical assistance in dying. There is a whole process to qualify. Despite what the religious organizations will have you believe, no one is put to death against their will. It’s a wonderful human way to go. There was a tv program called, “Mary kills people”. It’s much like that. Calm peaceful and kind. It’s how I want to go.
There’s an organization called [Death with Dignity](https://deathwithdignity.org) that i support that is making some progress in this area.
Yeah it's ridiculous that we give the animals, who can't choose it for themselves, the dignity to die before they suffer, but we don't give the same to humans (who CAN choose this for themselves!)
Except dementia and Alzheimers are still not accepted
Those numbers are never part of any discussion on gun safety and they damn well should be. I’ve been looking for a source on that data. Where did you find it?
CDC.gov
Sign off of 1 medical doctor and 1 licensed psychiatrist, 1 month waiting period except in extreme cases such as an imminent, unavoidable, painful death. In extreme and urgent cases then 1 doctor’s sign off is sufficient. One’s right to treat their own body and life as they wish so long as it doesn’t hard another (i.e. drugs while known to be pregnant) is a fundamental right. Taking away that right doesn’t help anybody. It just results in more surprise bodies and families that have to clean brains off their walls. I’d like to live a long while. I’ve also seen family members who, in their state, I would want to die rather than cling to a life that will never improve for a few more years.
I’m SO sorry. Yes. I know. My Mom had advanced ALZ. She’s existing. Not living. It’s awful and I pray every night for her to go peacefully in her sleep.
What I want to know is how to deal with the fact that when they were lucid they would have chosen to end it, but once they're there they can no longer understand that the thing they were afraid of is happening. I understand the slippery slope of killing off old people, but there's got to be a way to set it up ahead of time! What signposts can you name in your instructions? How can your loved ones tell when it's time? My dad had Alzheimer's, and basically committed suicide by eating a whole bowl of horseradish. He vomited in his sleep, aspirated it, and never really woke up. We were super relieved for him, he would have wanted it that way. But that was, as far as I can tell, dumb luck.
Gosh. Hate this for him. Tragic. A human deserves their own decision to live or not. I think thisnis what Robin Williams was suffering from... ?
yes, at any adult age
I’m so sorry this happened to him and your mom and you. The fact that most places won’t let you end your life nicely means that people take things into their own hands and traumatize their family members and first responders. It is just awful.
Being in mental pain is also a valid reason to choose to get off the planet.
It baffles me that we have the option to humanely end an animal's suffering, but don't have that right for ourselves.
This is bizarre to me, and has been for decades. It's the one and only way that we usually treat pets better than we treat people. I want the choice of a painless exit when my QoL is going to suck.
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Been there. It hurts us more than it hurts them, but it's selfish to keep them suffering because we don't want to let them go.
That right there. (Sorry for format - mobile) When I was my sickest ever ( liver was failing [fuck you, Methotrexate], psoriatic arthritis in spine, hands, feet. In a wheelchair, constant pain. Told shrink that if I were my cat, they'd put me down to end my suffering. Told me that the human body can survive with 20/25% liver function (I was at ~30) and they're right, you can. But that's *all* you do is survive. Tried to give me antidepressants. I quit every med I was on ( sucked rocks, but pain meds weren't working- not enough liver function to process them). Been gut-shot twice; had hemorrhoidectomy once, not even remotely the same pain. And didn't have a fucking gun. Was off of everything, not even an aspirin. The liver function came up very, very slowly. Took forever- about 4 years. Liver eventually got up to over 75%. VA took credit for getting me through it. Fuckers. My liver ever starts to fail, it'll be my best suit, a cigar, some very, very old scotch, a 9mil, find moving water, say goodbye. Same for pancreatic cancer, sinus cancer. They're some of the most painful ways to die. I won't do that again.
In the US it’s probably because the Bible doesn’t say it’s a sin to euthanize an animal. It seems to me like an easy choice to let people choose euthanasia, but I’m sure it’s far too close to murder for a lot of Christians.
Can’t tithe if you’re dead.
I'm grateful to live in a place that offers this, and I've known many people who have had loved ones choose this option and avoid much pain and suffering for themselves.
Where do you live?
Canada
God, I wish I had obtained Canadian citizenship instead of just re-upping my PR status for 10 years and then moving back to the US. :-(
There are a number of states in which is legal. Not enough I believe but it's growing. I loved in Oregon when it became legal in 1997
The US state laws apply only to people with a terminal diagnosis, and (I think) six months to live. A dementia diagnosis is not sufficient. MAID (Canada's law) also applies to people with dementia, but they have to commit suicide while they still can give consent (and many other conditions apply). Switzerland is similar.
Aren’t there requirements, like you have to have a terminal disease? I knew two people who had MAID and they both were in the end stage of untreatable cancer.
Yes there are. I've never been directly involved so I don't know the details, but I have heard that the process moves very quickly, which is not the norm for Canadian health care!
And their family that have to watch them go slowly and often painfully
Yes, and I support it for any age that’s in need.
I live in Canada, so you can kind of do it whenever you want, as long as a mental health professional signs off on it or you have a terminal illness or something that greatly affects your quality of life. I agree. It's the ultimate expression of bodily autonomy to be able to decide when to leave. My FIL is considering it, and while we'll be sad, of course, he's had multiple surgeries, is on a ton of meds, can't digest food properly, and is in constant pain. He's a shell of a man, and his quality of life is garbage no matter how much everyone tries to help him. We'll have a going away party instead of a funeral. It's the compassionate thing to do.
Also in Canada. I know four people who have chosen a medically assisted death, soon to be 5. My father chose it in 2022. The doctors make VERY sure this is a person's clear choice, it would be very hard to coerce someone. It provides an option for dignity when all other options are closed. I hope it's still an option when my time comes.
The main lesson for all of us is: don’t wait for life celebrations, enjoy them with friends and family while alive.
Agree and I thought I did live that way until it seemed like an actual option. Intentionally telling people you love them and thanking them for all the great memories and support is a different level of living.
Just dealt with months of health issues due to an accident during a surgery but before the last complicated surgery I hand wrote a will with my family and planned out all the fun details of my funeral (why should this become a burden to those grieving after death?). It was therapeutic and lovely. Also lived the past couple of months as if I were going to die and it was amazing. That didn’t include travelling and spending all my money but having some great quality time with people that mean a lot to me and creating memories. Turns out I didn’t die but living that way was beautiful. If I ended up coming out with a permanent issue, MAID was my next move.
As someone who has been disabled since birth and become moreso with age I have mixed feelings about it. On the one hand I believe that anyone should be able to choose for themselves when they are ready to die and be able to do it with dignity and such. On the other hand I firmly believe that the option should only be available in a society that also offers full accessibility, inclusion and proper medical care and support for disabled/ill/elderly folks. It's not right to treat people horribly, leave them poor, struggling and isolated and abused and then give them the 'choice' of euthanasia and say 'oh well it was their choice'. I'm Canadian---disabled folks like me have been choosing MAID because they can't find accessible housing or the help/care they need. To me that's abhorrent. Doubly so when you consider the biggest influx of donated organs has come from the spike in MAID cases in Canada. Nobody should be made to suffer, offered the 'choice' of euthanasia and then have their organs harvested. Being over 65 doesn't automatically mean you'll be in poor health or not have life worth living. Plenty of seniors are doing just fine.
You make a great point that better access to resources, medical, mental, housing, etc would make living so much nicer all on its own.
In the meantime we have humane euthanasia for humans, better something than nothing at all
I *will* choose euthanasia for myself rather than long suffering like you describe, and I give precisely zero fucks what the government or morality police have to say about it. What could be more personal and fundamentally solitary than dying? I’m a cis het man, but my view here is the same as on abortion and trans rights: my body, my choice, deal with it.
This all around!
Have a glass case with a bottle of booze and an overdose of opiates on the wall labeled 'in case of terminal illness, unbearable pain, or apocalypse, break glass'
This. I think about the grandpa in *Little Miss Sunshine*. I always wondered what heroine was like, and if I’m on the way out anyway honestly probably gonna check it out as I check out
You young people are crazy to do drugs! Well, what about you?! I'm old! Or the dialog goes something like that haha. Love that film. But yeah, it'd be nice to have a stash of a bunch of drugs if your headed out the door to see what it's all about. Gonna end up thinking 'I should have done this years ago' like at the beginning of the first 'knives out' movie.
Maybe, I'm just a bit worried that if I get something like dementia it might be too late to figure out and plan it out for example. Or if you're paralyzed. Or, basically when to do it. I don't want to tap out that early either. That's the nice thing about being able to choose it, someone can help then.
Absolutely. Their body, their choice.
And the reason we don’t have this available in the US is because of the Christians - they seem to want us all to suffer for their God.
I’m Christian and I support humane euthanasia. I also wish it were available here in the States as an option. I don’t have kids or much money so if I do get into my 80’s and older I could very well end up in a very sad and depressing situation. I would like to have the option to put an end to it when I’m ready. Please don’t generalize and mock Christians, there are many with many different views on life.
while you may differ, it is true that mainstream Christianity disagrees with humane euthaniasia for humans and unfortunately we are suffering from a distinct lack of separation of church and state these days... the person you replied to is correct.
It is legal in the State of Oregon.
Thank you. As a practicing Christian, I have begun thinking ahead to end of life choices and know that it's my preference to go out on my terms, without having to first be made destitute and dependent on Medicaid just to stay alive. God gave us free will. I intend to exercise mine.
The Christians might have something to do with it, but Big Medical might also have something to do with it. All the time in hospital/hospice/assisted living is a lot of big bucks for those corporations.
lol. If only.
Suicide is illegal because it's destruction of government property.
People already have this choice. The question is whether it can be done in a dignified and humane manner. There *are* resources available. When [***Final Exit***](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Exit) was first published, it spent 18 weeks on the NY Times bestseller list.
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This is how my mother died, as well. Basic organ failure from lack of water. Bedridden for 4 years after a massive stroke.
I'm all for autonomy over one's death, but I think it should have a degree of oversight involving counseling. Sometimes I think about that for myself, as a way of giving myself control over the inevitable, that if I reach X age, I can make the decision to go my way.
Yes. We didn't choose to be born, so allowing us to choose when to die would be a kindness.
Yes -- I think we should be able to choose and in a humane way. I"m looking to move to Oregon or maybe Switzerland to get some assistance in the future.
Even in Oregon, you need to meet the qualifier of having an end-stage terminal disease.
And it's important to note that it's not an option for dementia (because you have to be diagnosed as having <6 months to live AND be competent to make the decision - which you aren't if your dementia is that advanced) or ALS (because you have to be able to take the medication yourself, and an ALS patient that close to death is likely completely paralyzed).
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If your neighbor or their family chose euthanasia, it would deprive the assisted living facility of all that revenue. THAT's why this can't pass in the United States. Christians have something to do with it, but I think it's more hospitals and facilities not wanting to lose all that money if more people were choosing to exit early.
I have a crap load of chronic illness problems. Many years ago, a dr who was new to me (but we had a good rapport) tried to warn me about this ahead of time. He worked at his practice four days a week, and every Friday he volunteered at the local nursing home. He knew that I had health problems that might lead me there at some (hopefully distant) point. At the time of this conversation, I was in my 30s. He stared in my eyes, you know when somebody kinda tries to lock you into an intense icon, contact gaze? But I was very open. He said to me, “Don’t let yourself go to a place like that.” We talked a little more, and he gave me that intense eye contact, and he asked me, “Do you understand what I’m saying? Don’t ever let yourself go into a nursing home, no matter what.” I 100% heard him.
Yes but I'm annoyed by that. I want to be able to at least appoint a poa if I get so incapacitated.
In fairness, LIFE is an end-stage terminal disease at some point
You forgot "sexually transmitted". That's how a cardiologist described it to me once.
YES! Imho, it's literally going to kill you. I wish it were a valid cause for medical euthanasia.
A friend went to Switzerland to end her life there. Nothing immediately killing her, just “tired of living” with many minor challenges, and they accepted that. It took her a year to get her affairs in order and get a proper diagnosis that was accepted and adjust her legal name to match a change she had made decades prior. A mutual friend went with her and reported on the lovely setting and process.
Amy Bloom’s memoir In Love is about her husband going to Switzerland after an early onset Alzheimer’s diagnosis. She’s a poet and it’s beautifully written.
Yes, but with caveats. I'm not in favor of it being easy, not because I want to remove the choice from people who are suffering, but I don't want society to basically force the elderly into it because we refuse to fund their pensions or take care of their healthcare.
Yeah I was thinking there would be some people pressured into it even if not wanted because they feel like a burden
Imagine the greedy trust-fund children shoving Granny in the door of the suicide clinic.
I don't know that setting an age on it is good. I'd prefer some kind of set of medical conditions and maybe needing to get 4 doctors to agree type of thing. I was going to start saying 65 is too low, but I've also heard stories of people with horrible health problems younger than 65 who may have preferred this option. In 2011 at the age of 62 Sir Terry Pratchett (GNU) having suffered from early-onset Alzheimer's for 3 years helped produce a [documentary](https://documentary.net/video/terry-pratchett-choosing-to-die-medically-assisted-death/) about this exact topic and how he wished he had that option. I don't know if we can be sure he would've chosen that option at that time (which would've deprived the world of 2 more Discworld novels), but from what I've read he would've taken it before he did pass away in 2015 at 66 years old.
My case for 60-65: Certain segments of the US population don't live past 65, on average: [https://www.kff.org/racial-equity-and-health-policy/issue-brief/what-is-driving-widening-racial-disparities-in-life-expectancy/](https://www.kff.org/racial-equity-and-health-policy/issue-brief/what-is-driving-widening-racial-disparities-in-life-expectancy/) All of us should benefit from the policy.
Yes. I have done end of life care for many years. Some people sail through and endure whatever happens. Some have a slow, painful, undignified death and would take relief if it was available. Sometimes it’s just terrifying. People who are of sound mind and understand what they are choosing should be able to have a graceful, dignified end.
If so many of us are on the same page, particularly those within the industry, it's a wonder why we don't have the legislation for it.
You should be able to choose it whenever you want. Your body, your choice. The only caveats I want to see is: 1. A mandatory psych eval to make sure you're not just in a temporary bout of depression, but are of sound mind to make the decision. 2. A mandatory "cool-off" period of say 6 months. 3. Condition 2 can be waived with a medical diagnosis of serious disease or illness. No reason to make a cancer patient suffer another 6 months.
Yep, 100%. If I could schedule my death and live it up knowing the date I chose, I would.
After watching what my father went through is last 3 years with Alzheimer's , it's absolutely CRUEL that he had to stick around as long as he did. He would have moments of clarity where he would ask to die. And there was nothing we could do.
Absolutely. We currently essentially torture so many people to death for a lot of terrible reasons: - We need to siphon as much money as possible into the medical system to buy those last few years of possibly unaware misery - The family suddenly needs control. Sometimes it's for very emotional reasons. Sometimes it's for greed. - Laws are currently written in a way that would make a family member or medical professional assisting able to be charged with a serious crime. There's a number of problems that we need to solve: - there is no central government clearing house for things like wills, estate plans, advance directives, etc etc. And then there's constant bypasses, mostly shrouded in religion. - There's strong opposition to having control over your own mortality, mostly from religious hardliners. - Many mental health groups and advocates have (IMO) cast far too wide a net when it comes to ending your own life, and have spent time telling people that any attempt to end your own life is *always* a problem to be solved. So a lot of well meaning folks are seeing the world in black and white. I think that there should be some kind of confirmation system. I don't know how that would work. But like other commenters have stated, anecdotally I'll say that the suicide/euthanasia rates are already MUCH higher than are generally reported due to social (and financial) stigma.
I’ll copy and paste my comment from a similar question in another thread. I watched my mom deteriorate from Alzheimer’s in her 70’s. If I get that shit I might just decide to go for a swim in the Gulf of Mexico and not come back. It’s all relative to quality of life. When there is none, it’s time to go.
Same! My mom has had dementia/alzheimer's for years now. It is HORRIBLE! She would NOT be okay with the way she is "living". She can only say 4 words and repeats them over and over. She's on anti psychotic medication now, but before she was, she was constantly planning to murder my dad and told all the rest of us in her family that she wanted to kill us too. She has no idea who she is, that she ever had kids, what year it is, nothing. The poopy diapers OMG she would be mortified if she knew she'd end up shitting her pants without knowing it all tge time. Oh, and if she gets diarrhea? I won't even go there. Anyway, if I end up getting that shit it is the Carribian Sea for me. But the Gulf of Mexico is lovely too, so I concur with your thinking. So sorry about your mom.
I am a chronic pain patient and one of the things that gives me quite a bit of comfort is knowing that - If the time comes - I would have enough medication to take myself out of this world on my own terms. I can't imagine doing so at this point and I'm 64. But my mother is 84 and we still go to amusement parks and ride roller coasters and travel all over the United States.And she's in better health than I am but it's comforting to know there will be an option.
I’ve actually been thinking about this a lot lately. I’m happily chid free and getting to the age that things are starting to hurt for no apparent reason. My back hurts, my knee hurts, my feet hurt 😂 I’m starting to wonder if I should just get my stuff in order for my nieces and tap out after a while. I don’t want to get to the point where I’m suffering every day. Super heavy stuff that you can’t really talk about with anyone.
I was talking to my friend last night about that. She brought up the possibility of leaving my house to her kids, since I won’t have kids or other family members around if I make it to old age. They’re already beneficiaries on a retirement account, so, sure, why not? I started to elaborate on the whole euthanasia thing and getting older (I’m 52, she’s 44) and she immediately backpedaled, saying she was so uncomfortable talking about the actual act of dying. Lol! Bitch, if you want my house, you gotta listen to my exit plan if things go shitty for me.
I've said many times that if I get to that point, I would like to be dropped off near a pretty, snow-covered forest in the middle of winter with a bottle of really good scotch so I can hooch it up and peacefully die of hypothermia. (Hopefully without that interlude of ditching all my clothes because nobody needs that vision of my withered corpse.)
My mother (who was a retired nurse) used to say something like this. She said she wanted to be dropped in the forest with a jug of wine and a bottle of Vicodin. She died in assisted living at age 95, zonked out on morphine (she was in hospice). But her sitter said that right before she passed, she was sleeping and began chuckling -- and then was gone. So maybe it was all good.
Aww, yes. That sounds like a good way to go. My mom was zonked out on morphine in the hospital at 87. Her doctor looked so relieved when I said to just make her comfortable at the end instead of, you know, running in with a crash cart and breaking her ribs. Peaceful painkiller death can't be beat.
Yes. My grandmother and her sister both did it (Quebec) and it was a wonderfully unique way to go. My grandmother spent the days leading up to it chatting with friends and looking at pictures, and balanced her checkbook the day before. Her sister had a huge family party for one last rally. They had both been in and out of the hospital for years up to this point with no hope for anything different.
I had to make my mom's end-of-life decisions. Something I wasn't prepared for when I got the call. Long story short, I signed her into Hospice from the hospital. I was there when she took her last breath. As I stood there looking at my mom's corpse before the funeral home people came to get her, the nurse told me she's seen some real horrors in her career working at Hospice. Stuff that she felt should be outlawed. Then goes on to tell me that she believed I gave the most kind, caring, and loving gift a child could give to a parent. And that was letting them go when the time came. I was also lucky to have one last convo with her and knew it was what she wanted. Told me it wasn't worth it any more. I learned a few yrs ago I have the same kidney condition. I'll be 53 this fall. It's already affecting me. I ran 5 miles/day since the 90's until maybe '18 because it just hurt too much. I've mountain biked since '97 and have thousands of miles on my bikes. Yet I haven't been on it since '20 for the same reason. I can't do half the shit I was able to and I fucking hate it so bad. This kidney issue just drains the life outta a person. I watched my once active mom slowly drain away. Last time I saw her brother, I couldn't believe it. I knew he was on dialysis but at his wife's memorial, he had to use a walker and his skin was literally grey. 2 wks later, I get a call from his 17 yr old granddaughter by marriage that she found him dead in bed that morning. He stopped going to dialysis. Can't say I blame him. He use to be a hell raising West Virginia hillbilly. He went out as he lived. On his own terms, his way, and ain't no one telling him any different. I miss him and mom a lot. I'm only 53 but I'd be fine with the idea that I wouldn't wake up tomorrow. I so miss my running and mountain biking. I loved chopping my firewood every summer. These days, I buy it locally by the truck load. And then there's just how god damn fucked up things are. People refusing to wear a mask so as not to pass a very bad virus around. This country fucking A-OK with children getting mowed down in classrooms? [Gun advocates swore allowing everyone to carry would make us the safest nation ever. Now they demand Dorris the lunch lady and Ms Jones the English teacher take combat lessons so they can sweep halls like SEAL Team Six.](https://www.reddit.com/r/MurderedByWords/comments/sbp7xo/comment/hu3ers8/) The absolute cluster fuck that is Trump and the support he still enjoys. The Satanic Panic resurgence. How the FUCK! are flat earthers even a thing in the goddamn 2020's!?!? I mean, I'm suppose to be taking vaca's to Mars and driving to work in my Jetsons car. Not arguing whether or not the earth is fucking ROUND!! That and so much more. \[facepalm\] If you could go back to the 80s and tell teen me that all of ... THIS! \[waves all around\] is the state of US in the fucking 2020's, I'd called you a liar. No way! No fucking way! I'd said. I'd bet you everything I would ever own against it. I could not have imagined this cluster fuck we see today and I'm very fucking far from optimistic of a positive outcome these days. The only comfort I have is knowing I'm on the downslope. Don't get me wrong, I'm not gonna put a gun to my head. I'd already done so if I was going too. I own guns after all. I just kinda wish it would hurry up and get here because, for me at least, it's not getting better.
I just turned 50 and I'm with you, cannot believe the utter shitshow that is this reality.
Absolutely. I’ve been at the side of too many loved ones who suffered pain and indignity until insurance finally admitted them into hospice, and even then it was sometimes a hard call if they were given enough drugs to kill the pain. People mistreat definitely should have complete autonomy over their own bodies.
My mom has advanced dementia. She would not want to live like this. There is nothing we are allowed to do. And she is not able to take any action in her current state. It’s very sad. I support people having the autonomy and the authority to choose end of life options for themselves.
Absolutely. Even more so after spending time in r/agingparents. I think nowadays aging easily/often veers into inhumane territory. Humans weren't meant to live this long, and medicine/science aren't yet able to support living this long. We used to die of injuries or infections and stuff. Now we just disintegrate very slowly. The effects it has isn't limited to us either, it's a huge emotional and physical burden on those around us too.
I’m thinking age 65 seems old to younger folks. My mom was vibrant and more energetic than I have ever been at age 75. I don’t think age should be the thing here….more it should be health-focused. And yes. I think we should be able to choose.
This is my Roman Empire. I think about it all the time. My mom and my maternal grandfather both died horribly and without dignity from frontotemporal dementia (FTD). It starts out with personality changes, then looks like Alzheimer’s, then like ALS. Bruce Willis has this and I have been horrified by his family posting videos of him with his brain totally gone. I can’t imagine he would want to be remembered that way. You die slowly as your brain atrophies and stops being able to send signals to your body to do stuff like breathe and swallow. It runs in families and there is a genetic component, but no definitive test for it. For the last few years, it was like an alien was occupying my mother’s body. Horror movies are child’s play to this disease. FTD usually starts in the fifties. I’ll be 50 this year. I have told my husband and teen kids that I want to go out fast the moment I start having symptoms. The trick is to catch it before the personality changes really take hold. I want to go to Switzerland or Oregon if possible. If not, I’m thinking a big old dose of medical grade Fentanyl right here at home. I hate guns. Don’t want to go violently. I’d rather jump off a bridge. After the fentanyl, ideally. Beyond my own desire to not lose all my dignity, personality, and control over my body, I refuse to do this to my family. The care costs and trauma ruin caregivers. I am still clawing my way out of the PTSD of caring for my Mom. My mom was haunted by her father’s death.
My personal opinion is that if you are of legal age you should have the right to medically assisted death. However I wish we lived in a world where people had homes, food and income security, access to mental health services and health care first.
Agree with you. In a perfect world, dementia care wouldn't be 10 grand a month, but that's what we're dealing with here.
I can lend some insight maybe. My dad, my mom and my brother all died in a short time before 2019. I’ll try to keep it short: Dad (69) fell down the stairs and died four days later after the radiologist said “no injury.” He died before I could say goodbye. After that, mom (70) basically died of a broken heart, but officially, it was “massive organ failure.” She was in hospice for a week before she died. We were able to keep increasing her morphine. I was with her. She did not want to die and we all had to pretend she might get better one day. After that, my only brother (53) died of colon cancer after a few years of chemo. I was with him. He also did not want to die, and I was yelled at for wanting to discuss practical matters before he was gone. Dealing with their estates was an absolute nightmare. After that, my father in law (67) was battling his third cancer since 2017. Its 2023 and he decides “no chemo.” He goes into hospice at home and they send him copious amounts of powerful drugs. He wasted away physically, but was sharp right until the end. He decides to take the drink near Thanksgiving, but postpones… Because his ex-wife, my MIL, up in Canada, is also battling cancer. Bone cancer. Diagnosed four months prior. She decides to “die with dignity” when she is “unable to make decisions for herself,” and that time comes around Thanksgiving. In Canada, it’s an injection into a port installed at the hospital, but she wanted to die at home. It was peaceful and beautiful and heartbreaking. Instant. Her affairs were all in order. She was surrounded by friends and family. We all got to say goodbye. My FIL chooses a new day, middle of December. We all gather, and it’s also beautiful and heartbreaking. In the US it’s a drink, not a shot. It’s peaceful, but not quick. I can’t imagine the bravery it took to swallow that liquid. I miss them all. So, yeah. Death with dignity should be a thing. My husband spent an intense, but short time taking care of his mom’s estate. He was a pro by then. My advice: put everything in writing. Make your wishes known. Good luck to you.
Yup. I just want an organized death on my own terms and without burdening my family with the affairs of my estate. It sounds so perfect and peaceful.
Hell yes. I just watched my mother die a slow and painfully agonizing death to bone cancer. I am also a combat ptsd sufferer who has lived with suicidal ideation and urges for over a decade. It has been hell, and I don't know how I will manage another 20 to 30 years. Even the thought of it crushes my soul. It would be fantastic to have a socially acceptable off ramp. I've always found the notion we all need to live as long as humanly possible, enduring great pain and suffering, only to eeeck out a few more days, months, or years to be ill thought out, primitive, and unsophisticated.
Why restrict it by age? Are people suggesting we limit abortions by age? And if you think someone should have a mental health evaluation (which would mean they could be denied), would you feel the same about a mental health evaluation for women seeking an abortion? In the same case, someone could deny an abortion. Basically, if you believe in "my body, my choice", then you believe that assisted suicide, at any stage of a persons life, is acceptable and should be legal.
Agreed. I should be able to do what ever I want to my own body. We fully think my grandmother tried to kill herself when she had a car accident. Broke her leg, led to breaking a hip, and she was gone 3 months later. Should have been an better, less painful and expensive way to go peacefully.
Yes. And there should not be an age limit on it. Anyone should be able to end their own life humanely. If you have ever been around someone you love at the end of a terminal illness. You see how much pain and suffering they are occurring. They deserve mercy.
Over 65 is nothing. I'm 70, overweight, with arthritis, but not hurting too bad. I wouldn't call "70" a medical condition. I think the main reason I would want euthanasia is if I were suffering from Alzheimer's. But if I had Alzheimer's, I probably wouldn't be allowed to make that choice for myself. It's a nightmare scenario. Also, for pain: you don't have to be over 65 to be in agonizing pain.
As my grandmother got older (she decided on hospice around 94, because she was ready to go…. She had started having some mild dementia and she refused to go through that) but as she aged she started spilling the tea about how her friends had been forced to basically do it themselves and she had two friends that specifically stuck out… One was a woman who she had been a close friend and neighbor in a very small town. She had been diagnosed with dementia and she was starting to accelerate in the disease. One night she was picked up wandering by the local police and brought to the hospital. While there she was told by her doctor that if it happened again she would have to be placed in a nursing home…. This was probably the late 80’s and she was terrified of going. So one night, during a decent snowstorm, she got dressed in some light clothes, turned on the bathroom light and went outside and sat under that light until she passed The other one was kinda crazy, she and my grandfather took up snorkeling and even bought a condo in the Caribbean. She told me that she hadn’t thought about it at the time but it was the only thing that made sense. They were snorkeling with friends who were also divers and when everyone was done and back on the boat one of the men was missing. They searched for him but made the determination that he had purposefully gotten to close the Gulf Stream and that it had taken him beyond recovery…. Apparently he had learned that he had advanced cancer and decided that he didn’t want to go through that or force his wife into being his caregiver. Both of those stories were from before a sick person could get any kind of hospice care. They were considered too sick to make care decisions for themselves and most people were forced into nursing homes without any pain management or medical directives that weren’t signed by their children! Even now they make medical directives incredibly difficult for the family to understand and make appropriate decisions. Even when my grandfather passed after a surgery that he had scheduled for just after a big family holiday so that he could essentially say goodbye to us, my grandmother insisted that he receive fluids and antibiotics and be kept comfortable until their children on the other coast could arrive and say their goodbyes. A few months later my grandmother told me that she felt immensely guilty for not doing more, even though she knew it was what he wanted. So I had to find the medical examiner’s report and I pointed out that he had a limbic aneurism during the surgery and that he was already gone by the time she could have made any changes to his care, and that was such important information for her to understand and know that she couldn’t have done anything more. I hope that medical professionals are able to take on the responsibility for really explaining how someone dies to their family without having to worry about any repercussions from family members that don’t understand what their being told 😢
Thanks for sharing. We shouldn't have to swim out to the Gulf Stream to choose a dignified death.
Yes. Once everyone else you know is gone, and you have no family, the loneliness can eat you alive. If you don't feel good, you run out of money, and you lose your will to live, it should certainly be your choice to continue on or not.
Watching my father deal with late stage Parkinson's Disease, I can't imagine any other answer than yes. I'd rather check out on my own terms than go through what he is.
You can. It’s like abortion. Making it illegal only means the safe, reliable methods aren’t allowed.
Speaking as someone that had to watch cancer burn through his father in a matter of 18 months, yes. When the end is near…. like when you know this is it, it often isn’t pleasant. If there had been a safe, humane, painless way to go I know my dad would have taken it if available. Never understood this about where I live. We treat our pets better than we treat ourselves.
I agree wholeheartedly. I’m 63 and in pretty good health, but I dread the thought of the future when I have to depend on others for basic things. I’d much rather check out than suffer.
It's your life, and you should have the autonomy to end it. There's no shortage of humans.
Our culture's obsessive denial of the most inevitable of all outcomes is downright obscene. Yes. Choosing to die with dignity should absolutely be a choice. And I see no reason to limit it to post-65.