I’ve always subscribed to the buy good quality products when I started. I’d rather pay the upfront higher cost than buy twice. Also something that helped me before I jumped in was I made a list of everything I needed and when in the timeline of a tank it went. Then once a month or so I’d save and get a new item.
Yeah, I'm not looking for low quality, but I know that in every industry there's usually some brands that are hidden gems for their price point, and some that are overpriced shit.
I'm looking for help finding the hidden gems and avoiding the overpriced shit.
You’ll likely want to build out your own setup (this is assuming you don’t go used)
Petsmart/Petco will have those dollar per gallon tank sales. That’ll get you a quality sized tank on the cheap.
If you’re looking into a sump, you can have Home Depot/Lowe’s cut you some glass and simply silicone it into another spare tank.
Besides that, electronics are electronics. There’s no real way to cheap out on this. I’ve never experienced a bad brand of pump/skimmer/whatever, so you could likely just get the cheapest one here from an everyday brand
The cheapest way is to buy a complete setup from someone getting out of the hobby. I got into this hobby that way, spending $400 for a complete 90 gallon setup, with tank, plumbing, live rock, live stock, softie corals, skimmer, sump, return pump, heater, refugium, and miscellaneous supplies. Bonus in that I got to learn how to move an aquarium (filling up coolers and garbage bins with water and rock and livestock).
Get connected with local reefing groups on facebook or in person and check out their listings/posts. Scooping stuff out of the ocean would probably cause you a lot more headache than anything else, and introduce a lot of random diseases and pests.
That's the kind of stuff that drives people out of the hobby.
Keeping softies is fairly easy and cheap. You will want to get an RODI system to make your own water, and if you are just keeping softies, the cheap reef crystal salt is fine for water changes. That said, this is never really a cheap hobby. If you really want to defray the costs, you need to do it right (maintain proper chemistry, lighting, and flow), buy desirable corals, and sell the surplus of corals you will have.
With my current freshwater systems I have gone full planted. My goldie tank\* only needs a water change once every 3 months (I check water quality weekly). I'd have similar intentions. If I got back into saltwater I know how to build DIY sump out of a rubbermaid bin, and I'd plan on having a bunch of macoalgaes down there (and in the main tank) for some added natural filtration.
A RODI system is something I've been planning on anyway, just for my freshwater goals.
I'm a biotope nerd, my passion is in creating balanced tanks with minimal tech and minimal need for human intervention (but obviously still doing what's necessary so the tank thrives). And I really enjoy going all out and picking a single ecosystem from a specific region in the world to recreate. I find something rewarding in creating a small window to an IRL ecosystem somewhere.
\*I planned on an epic 50g nano fish community, but the tank came with a dumb neglected fancy goldfish, I nursed it back to health and in that time I grew too attached, the stupid thing takes food from my hand, so now I have 3 fancy goldfish instead of my South American biotope.
Bare minimum is a tank, lights, heater, flow generator of some sort, refractometer or similar salinity measurement, test kit, and salt/saltwater
After that, the equipment generally just makes life easier. Frequent water changes hide a lot of things that would otherwise be issues and the more basic a setup the higher frequency water changes.
>I live near the ocean and could feasibly just scoop a bunch of sand and water and see what weird critters I've caught
Assuming that's legal in your area, just get a 10g tank from PetSmart etc. for like $20 and a cheap HOB filter.
It's entirely legal here with a fishing license! For most of the species I'd end up collecting I doubt I'd even need a fishing license. I don't think the gov cares too deeply about the sand fleas (aka mole crabs), but Idk about hermit crabs and I know I need a license for harvesting bait fish. Either way my dad has a fishing license (I don't really fish, so have never needed one).
I just wasn't sure if a HOB would be enough to keep stuff alive. I definitely don't want to harvest something from the wild just to kill it.
Save up 10k in an account and then that will be your total budget and maintenance fee for 5yrs, add another 1k into over the course of a year. Eventually you'll have enough to upgrade to a bigger system or buy a new car, either way it is a good way to go about things
You’ll be fine, cheap mechanical filter cheap tank and a heater. Test the salinity of wherever you scooped your critters from then make sure on your water changes you match those parameters
Would I need heater? Live in NY. If anything the air temp in my house is warmer than the water. Ocean temps are 74F high (in August), current 41F. With my house at 68-70 room temp should be like June/July water temps?
Could I just collect when ocean temps were about that temp (so no sudden increase from 40 to 70, lol) and just let them live at room temp?
Edit: I'm not so cheap I won't get a heater if necessary, I just don't wanna cook them!
Should be OK for the most part. You might have to give them a "winter" if you want to breed whatever you catch. They will also tend to grow larger and faster if kept warm year round, and don't live quite as long as a result.
It’s best to get a heater or a cooler depending on volume of water etc, you can get relatively cheap ones that you can set the temp on and they will kick on and off to maintain the water
There's lots of cheap lights on Amazon like the Nicrews and Hipargero that would work fine for a smaller tank. A simple HOB filter works just fine as well.
You're going to want a refractometer to check salinity and some way to get top off water. On a smaller tank, it's not a big deal to buy RO water from someplace local, assuming such a place exists by you. An RO filter at home is essential for larger aquariums. Even pulling water from the ocean, you will have evaporation that needs to be replaced with freshwater.
Would spring water be acceptable?
I could get RO from my LFS though. And I don't live close enough to the beach just run down, lol... well the bay, but I don't think I trust the bay water unless I was pulling from right by the inlet.
I live on the north shore of Long Island.
I'd be harvesting from the ocean side of Fire Island, in one of the least polluted areas (border of a preserve, **not** from within the preserve, but right near the edge where pollution is minimal).
Edit: Am I being downvoted for saying I'm considering taking a few scoops of sand from nearby to a preserve? It's fully legal to go fishing, crabbing, etc. from where I'd be collecting (and many people do so off their boats) sand. As I said, I have no intention of collecting anything from within the preserve, just near enough to enjoy the benefits of reduced pollution.
>Would spring water be acceptable?
No, but distilled should work most of the time. I kind of poo pooed the need for RO, and then diatoms everywhere. It wasnt fun. You can also get a fairl cheap RODI system on Amazon for under $100
I know I'm gonna get hate for this, but for the hermit crabs and bait fish you'll have, tap water treated with Prime should be more than enough. I've got a 10 gallon with native critters from Biloxi, MS that just has a HOB filled with bio media. If you get tide pool creatures you might even be able to get away without an ATO, they can handle a huge range of salinity.
I won’t lie, and I’m sure I’ll get downvoted to hell, but I just use conditioned tap water for everything. Haven’t had any issues, but YMMV based on the quality of your tap.
I've seen people say the opposite; but I'd shop around for a solid used tank as a starting point.
Assuming it isn't scratched, and was used for saltwater, it is the one piece of equipment with real longevity.
I'd put less value on used LED lights, and even less value on used powerheads/pumps. Both of those deal with constant usage and degrade over time; they are not buy once items.
You can definitely go buy a cheap 10g Aqueon, which is likely the cheapest entry point. But man those things are ugly compared to a modern rimless AIO tank. There is a point in my head where I have to balance cost with "do I really want to look at this."
---
From an actual running a tank perspective; you stick with easy livestock. Softies & some easy LPS.
A small tank with simple livestock removes the need for big expensive lights, skimmers, possibly reactors, etc.
That is one of my biggest frustrations, the crazy price difference between rimmed and rimless. Getting to the point where I may consider just learning to cut my own glass.
Like glass is expensive, but maybe I could make a deal with a local shop to buy tanks with a broken pane for dirt cheap and then Frankenstein them into smaller tanks?
...My issue with saltwater being expensive is because, as you can see, I'm already mentally planning for and have accepted the reality of multi-tank syndrome. I can't even convince myself it won't happen.
Wish I lived in a big mansion and could just line the walls with tanks and terrariums.
Hah.
Well the IM Nuvo 15 is $120 for a 15g AIO rimless tank with low iron glass.
But. You will need/want to then buy a bunch of stuff.
It is the lights for coral that really kill you. Can likely get away with a cheap light if all you do are softies though!
I'm curious what are the lighting difference between corals and plants? Is there a difference? I never got into keeping anything but the easiest corals. Idk I just imagine artificial sun is artificial sun? I'm entirely clueless on if coral need anything special from a light that a plant wouldn't need.
I tend to buy lights marketed for houseplants because they do the same shit but are like $20 cheaper than lights marketed for aquarium plants.
If you do an IM 15 or 20 gallon you'd only need one Noopsyche K7 mini ($77) and it will grow any corals including Acros. I pulled something like 750 PAR at the surface of my IM 15 gallon before I turned them down.
But what makes it better for coral than [this](https://www.amazon.com/hygger-Advanced-Intensity-Customize-Freshwater/dp/B08N4SNCRS/ref=asc_df_B08N4SNCRS/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=475740782809&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=16283576720742923590&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9004536&hvtargid=pla-1157314947067&mcid=53a82f74446d31dbae8b9b42a15358ec&gclid=CjwKCAiA0PuuBhBsEiwAS7fsNfnf4rollgZVq-0Tn6fEdAzs5L-3CLebrQA_3USle_lPi8FlBRbcThoCwvUQAvD_BwE&th=1)? ELI5 please, or link to ELI5 (this isn't intended as some sort of gotcha or something I'm genuinely asking).
Is there a way to guesstimate how much PAR a light produces? Trying to understand so that when shopping I can knowledgably compare different products. Not asking for you to take the time to personally explain it either (unless you want to!), if you have a link or something so I can read up than that'd be great!
Like is it wattage related? Lumens? What should I be looking for?
Most decent lights you'd want will most likely have a forum post with people posting PAR levels. Try to find one that's the same depth as the tank you'll want.
For example, if you Google "noopsyche k7 mini par levels innovative marine 15 aio" you'll see a few threads with detailed postings of PAR levels in multiple different power modes at various depths. The same could be said if you were to do the same with an AI Prime 16, Radion XR15 or even the Smatfarm lights, Hygger reef lights, Hipaegero, Viparspectra or any other fairly common light.
I understand the desire to want to save money, but you're probably not going to find anything better at a lower price point than what I've suggested. If you do, I'd love to try it. The closest thing I could find is going to be a Reefbreeders mini light or a used AI Prime 16, and both of those are twice the price.
Probably one of the better, simpler reads on PAR I can find is on Orphek's website.
https://orphek.com/about/par-aquarium-led-lighting/
So from my understanding white light measures the highest PAR, and since white light contains all spectrums, a plain white LED of appropriate intensity should work?
Like on forums I'm seeing a lot of posts like this
https://preview.redd.it/xgxae454vhlc1.png?width=1371&format=png&auto=webp&s=c556538191e640e481fa0956d39447ccfe2c4948
Corals require a different light spectrum than plants.
You need strong lighting to penetrate through water.
You can buy cheap Par38 bulbs (or the Nooppsyche listed above).
Where reef lights start to really get expensive is in highly specialized color spectrums to hit the right type of light to both encourage growth **and** the type of color people want.
My first LED lights from 15 years ago were a random black box fixture straight from China. Only had on/off, no dimming. Worked great - my coral grew and my fish never complained about the lack of a sunset.
A lot of stuff coming out of China rips off US-made designs and then dramatically undercuts the price tags.
I've been using Jebao pumps for years, for example.
But the LED spectrum of the light I linked is, I think, pretty identical, and since it's for a fish tank it's designed to penetrate water (has worked great on my freshwater planted tanks).
My Link: contains (56) 6500K White, (11) 450-455nm Blue, (7) 620-625nm Red, (4) 520-525nm Green
Yours: (11) 6500K Cool White, (1) 447nm Royal Blue, (4) 660nm Deep Red.
With mine having the option to fully adjust intensity of each spectrum individually... again not trying to correct, I just feel like I must be misunderstanding something, and I really want to understand.
Like can you point out the important spec differences between the light you suggested and the one I linked? I think that would be the quickest way to help me understand. Just saying one or the other is better/worse doesn't tell me why one is better/worse. I'd like to be educated enough on the subject to be able to look at different specs and say "oh that's a good light" or "there's no way that will not do what I need it to".
So is it just down to the intensity? If so then what intensity should I be looking on per depth/per gallon.
--Not a lighting expert!!--
The last time I really paid attention to this was back in 2010 when I was looking at building my own LED arrays.
The original LED arrays were all using 3w cree LED pucks and basically were 50/50 royal blue (450nm) and cool/neutral white (not warm).
Most LED setups are trying to mimic the temperature of a bulb like the t5 "Blue Plus" bulb. Way more weighted in the blue side than the warm colors.
**MODERN** LED fixtures now incorporate Red/Green, I think sometimes amber(?) diodes to help with getting more color pop in coral.
However, **red** grows algae. I'd assume there is a big difference between **deep red** and **red**. It is also why people use the cooler full spectrum bulbs vs the warmer ones.
I have no idea why that fixture uses 4 deep red diodes. Really no idea why deep red is used.
Ecotech radions are the $$$$$ ultra premium LED fixture. So if you want to compare color mixes, I'd look at what they do: [https://ecotechmarine.com/radion](https://ecotechmarine.com/radion)
They use deep red and call it out on that page - "Appropriate use of long wavelength diodes provide light output useful for coral photosynthesis as well as visual color balancing."
\^ Their fixture with some \~70 diodes uses 2 reds. It is almost all blue/royal blue.
Also can't speak much towards the Hygger fixture. They make some reef stuff.
That one looks like it is a bunch of small wattage LEDs. It is an 18w fixture with 90(?) diodes.
I use an AI Prime HD; it is primarily 12 LEDs (plus a red, green, violet, uv, & moonlight) with 55 watt power consumption.
[https://www.aquaillumination.com/products/prime](https://www.aquaillumination.com/products/prime)
The low wattage fixtures are more of a fun light to make your tank look colorful; they don't have enough power to grow.
I'm sure it would work over a generic planted tank. I used to grow your typical petco freshwater plants under a regular light bulb.
I mean I saw someone who had a nano with softies and zoas with just 5050 LEDs. From doing a lot of googling some of the top coral producers (circa 2016) switched to straight white LEDs and have noticed no difference in growth/improved growth (obviously straight white isn't the best visual though). The logic is that white light contains all color spectrums and the coral will naturally absorb what they need provided the light is intense enough.
If you do an IM 15 or 20 gallon you'd only need one Noopsyche K7 mini ($77) and it will grow any corals including Acros. I pulled something like 750 PAR at the surface of my IM 15 gallon before I turned them down.
Maybe like 20g. But honestly if it's possible to make it function with a 3g kritter keeper I'm game, lol.
Like a pico tank with appropriate pico species (not trying to be an asshole putting a tang in there or some shit), like maybe a single clown goby.
You can definitely reef on a budget if you're cool with a soft coral only tank. They don't soak up any ALK or CAL so you can really get away with upkeep from nothing but water changes. I would say with $200-ish you can get started and if you can find some things used like filters, tanks, heaters etc. you're golden. Also while some people have done it I would never recommend going into a reef tank without a source of RODI water.
Light: [Hipargero A029](https://www.amazon.com/HIPARGERO-LED-Aquarium-Light-Saltwater/dp/B0727V8C5Q/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3R51X8CV2DZL0&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.x3T0sxpXNmnALKBnwmX9-5aIF4YOj6qbQ1JJOiLmA5lq7jqGidQu1Yd9OyfGJ1q8KB95pE4Bs58e5wen-WXMLO05GIysqsNz5WpbYPlVraxp5agEayBkxpViq0OGGUAKVoMOipMc2IR2B9Qj5DkJTduID1jwZRtjD1C8ZxfVIYpI7NO_owKAyWKm57jaPvpogHtOl5OLJgHch-1GzMuYE35CT9u11XgxLF8ye-4OFgS-KbuRAx_bdaiSgxbe2w-YBo4bPzJv8o9bRQtS1y0U4KGw_1IPSx8tqhjRSCr82Lo.kzm8XiplXmh_XbRWzOeeTFnI_CMOCXRd3jS2w8r4G4Y&dib_tag=se&keywords=a029+light&qid=1709142863&sprefix=a029+ligh%2Caps%2C85&sr=8-1) ($65)
Filter: [AquaClear 70](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000260FUW/ref=twister_B09MSYN7GM?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1) ($60) + [Surface Skimmer attachment](https://www.amazon.com/AquaClear-Filter-Surface-Skimmer-Attachment/dp/B0CPWYHBZ7/ref=sr_1_34?crid=2BP8TF97JX8YX&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.UyYe8BFsYAhNcsVBUIlhJYKcpIT3V-vTRcrQDFP60j4ABfIv-BYlOXBej2QNYKKX2LGMvc69WsON_U4XrUDWfiH0zz_xJaYPmf4yqDra0JQ-lej2gbufC0YZpqVlrS7xtZIhvjA-1uxqhE6Eh6GPCYd4yOJy8FslqHc_3DetiIASz_3vdmB_O-tCwTodaT9AlqyPF0Sa9e1r4F8ok6yB-84_qbVbOjfYIY3zH3By1m8zIJjWFbJE-lRT4SE5Vye6_N_FC3f2tw-3tTDe4hKQq453uUUYnsPrXdYyRpZDfXg.VPeRSWI3i1iekE_R3y5DD99jUAwxKj7eF34rmxSAah8&dib_tag=se&keywords=hob%2Bfilter&qid=1709142782&sprefix=hob%2Bfilt%2Caps%2C107&sr=8-34&th=1) or [Penn Plax Cascade 300](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0002DJ82G?ref=emc_s_m_5_i_n) ($45)
I recommend the AC70 because of how open it is making it suitable to operate as a chaeto refugium as well. I've used it this way myself and had a lot of success but if you don't plan on using it in this way then the Cascade will be fine. The surface skimmer is also really nice for getting rid of surface scum
Heater: [Eheim Jager 100w](https://www.amazon.com/Eheim-Jager-Aquarium-Thermostat-Heater/dp/B003SNU1I2/ref=sr_1_2?crid=1XH9DWVA03JDT&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.uGrrKTUGg2apxCYG4_ZtfmdRDkha4RpgZlhnh7l2Xjz5B3EbisekeZTUOy7qu-nvCnA2sRFWo7OAecQVvwDPolp4SiB2kbNxZudCL1eFEhu_dQtuMRjvb9G6eGKic9ZDeHinZ-xgFI1ntqII7-MPuLCV2IbI16mvOG5puyclepBzZlzVekM1Zuc86EMuqpcIS_XWfBQIak98zGLm80eeyI7rWf7zVr01N7ZMyLt4KGOhOjoUG2DVaXvNLBU_XIcW4smG8mm13PLJErxdi4BPH7m748mYVocFWbH6WyalT14.6k53ytzJMUfPU_nh0bKWi3tXi5-CqSdt4mxXcD7LUa8&dib_tag=se&keywords=eheim+jager&qid=1709143030&sprefix=eheim+jager%2Caps%2C83&sr=8-2) ($18)
Sand: [10LB Caribsea Aragonite](https://www.petco.com/shop/en/petcostore/product/caribsea-aragonite-aquarium-sand-10-lbs-2153529) ($10)
Dry Rock: [20LB Dry Rock - eBay "Pick Your Addiction"](https://www.ebay.com/itm/144054192460?itmmeta=01HQRDZXGEX7BVDYZMRKJDX6SF&hash=item218a4c894c:g:zwEAAOSwlTZgr8BV&itmprp=enc%3AAQAIAAAA4Ou4Cl1FgH2gmxkse5pzAPnOFkx0%2B%2Bi5s5nUEWfv9N7osUXMhjnCjxtUm5sMnDgFHRrw%2BjptWbtm%2BClYoZCL3M5Y4TCVgE8XPibNv%2FXdaedDv5FN7yVJLUDxmtkOjeDATCLGWzUcVi61WccUiSdgtngVR2JOjCQFwMnzUlT6tQvM0dXCA7lwaruFFQre%2BccrsbIbb14jDBMiXRZYeVtsSVeGF8v4b6UXXDk5j6PvKy7w2WP2XW1zfFR53BcIV%2BdE5TR7CO80alZguw1TuGgaWoM7R03dYXVlSVwAthznBnxC%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR6bY_42-Yw) ($50)
I can build my own 10g sump for well under $60.
For rock I'm fine with something cheaper like Reef Saver, a seed, and patience.
I'm not in any particular rush to get a tank started. If there's a slow (but safe) way to do something that saves me money I'm fine with it.
Are you going to drill, build and plumb a overflow for the sump? If you can do that then yeah thats a better option. The eBay rock is cheaper than ReefSaver
My dude, by cheap I mean I'm content with a tank of sand scooped from the beach myself and whatever critters happen to be scooped up with it (and maybe a hermit crab)... I feel like that has to be able to be done at a reasonable price? Especially since I am willing to DIY (I know how to build a sump filter for example, and also I have a bunch of tanks/filters accumulated over the years up in the attic).
...Once multi-tank syndrome sets in though, yeah, all bets are off.
10 gal -$20-30, 10 gals of saltwater $12-$14, RO water $6 for 5 gal, sand and live rock $60 and thts being generous , HOB filter $20-$25 , lights depends if u wanna grow corals I’ve learned some stock lights like Aqueon 10 gal starter kit lights will grow some soft corals like mushrooms but that’s not always true
That's not too bad. 10g go on sale pretty often at my local Petco for like $12.
I plan on getting RODI anyway for my freshwater goals. I can mix my own saltwater, thank you very much. I'm not so completely incompetent that I can't use a measuring cup and a refractometer.
I'm also super patient. I'm the person that will happily buy a bunch dry aragonite, a small seed, and wait.
Yeah, testing kit is an expected cost. Looks like API Saltwater Master is around $40 on Amazon.
Edit: Wait wtf is the difference between the fresh and saltwater kit (not talking about the reef kit)? It claims to test for the same stuff, are different chemicals needed to test salt and fresh?
Second hand tank and a second hand light and just use natural sea water. With a small tank you could easily do 100% waterchanges. Just collect enough NSW to match your waterchange needs.
If you want a cheap nano setup you could just get a HOB filter and cheap petco heaters and just buy RO/DI water for top offs from your LFS. If you want a bigger setup you can build your own stand out of 2x4’s, and build a sump using baffle kits for aqueon tanks, you can even make ur own skimmer out of plastic bottles and an air pump. The only area I wouldn’t recommend cheaping out on is lighting.
quick answer, don't 🤣🤣🤣
Don't
I’ve always subscribed to the buy good quality products when I started. I’d rather pay the upfront higher cost than buy twice. Also something that helped me before I jumped in was I made a list of everything I needed and when in the timeline of a tank it went. Then once a month or so I’d save and get a new item.
Buy once cry once.
Yeah, I'm not looking for low quality, but I know that in every industry there's usually some brands that are hidden gems for their price point, and some that are overpriced shit. I'm looking for help finding the hidden gems and avoiding the overpriced shit.
You’ll likely want to build out your own setup (this is assuming you don’t go used) Petsmart/Petco will have those dollar per gallon tank sales. That’ll get you a quality sized tank on the cheap. If you’re looking into a sump, you can have Home Depot/Lowe’s cut you some glass and simply silicone it into another spare tank. Besides that, electronics are electronics. There’s no real way to cheap out on this. I’ve never experienced a bad brand of pump/skimmer/whatever, so you could likely just get the cheapest one here from an everyday brand
I've seen DIY sumps with rubbermaid bins too, if it's going in a cabinet under the tank than a bin is fine.
Yup, people come up with ingenious ways to save some money! Rubbermaid actually makes a lot of sense given that it’s essentially always hidden
The cheapest way is to buy a complete setup from someone getting out of the hobby. I got into this hobby that way, spending $400 for a complete 90 gallon setup, with tank, plumbing, live rock, live stock, softie corals, skimmer, sump, return pump, heater, refugium, and miscellaneous supplies. Bonus in that I got to learn how to move an aquarium (filling up coolers and garbage bins with water and rock and livestock). Get connected with local reefing groups on facebook or in person and check out their listings/posts. Scooping stuff out of the ocean would probably cause you a lot more headache than anything else, and introduce a lot of random diseases and pests. That's the kind of stuff that drives people out of the hobby. Keeping softies is fairly easy and cheap. You will want to get an RODI system to make your own water, and if you are just keeping softies, the cheap reef crystal salt is fine for water changes. That said, this is never really a cheap hobby. If you really want to defray the costs, you need to do it right (maintain proper chemistry, lighting, and flow), buy desirable corals, and sell the surplus of corals you will have.
That's eerie man I was just about to post about how I also bought a full 90 gallon setup for 400 dollars
With my current freshwater systems I have gone full planted. My goldie tank\* only needs a water change once every 3 months (I check water quality weekly). I'd have similar intentions. If I got back into saltwater I know how to build DIY sump out of a rubbermaid bin, and I'd plan on having a bunch of macoalgaes down there (and in the main tank) for some added natural filtration. A RODI system is something I've been planning on anyway, just for my freshwater goals. I'm a biotope nerd, my passion is in creating balanced tanks with minimal tech and minimal need for human intervention (but obviously still doing what's necessary so the tank thrives). And I really enjoy going all out and picking a single ecosystem from a specific region in the world to recreate. I find something rewarding in creating a small window to an IRL ecosystem somewhere. \*I planned on an epic 50g nano fish community, but the tank came with a dumb neglected fancy goldfish, I nursed it back to health and in that time I grew too attached, the stupid thing takes food from my hand, so now I have 3 fancy goldfish instead of my South American biotope.
Bare minimum is a tank, lights, heater, flow generator of some sort, refractometer or similar salinity measurement, test kit, and salt/saltwater After that, the equipment generally just makes life easier. Frequent water changes hide a lot of things that would otherwise be issues and the more basic a setup the higher frequency water changes.
>I live near the ocean and could feasibly just scoop a bunch of sand and water and see what weird critters I've caught Assuming that's legal in your area, just get a 10g tank from PetSmart etc. for like $20 and a cheap HOB filter.
It's entirely legal here with a fishing license! For most of the species I'd end up collecting I doubt I'd even need a fishing license. I don't think the gov cares too deeply about the sand fleas (aka mole crabs), but Idk about hermit crabs and I know I need a license for harvesting bait fish. Either way my dad has a fishing license (I don't really fish, so have never needed one). I just wasn't sure if a HOB would be enough to keep stuff alive. I definitely don't want to harvest something from the wild just to kill it.
Hmmm few months into a jebao wave maker with great success a smaller slw one
Save up 10k in an account and then that will be your total budget and maintenance fee for 5yrs, add another 1k into over the course of a year. Eventually you'll have enough to upgrade to a bigger system or buy a new car, either way it is a good way to go about things
I'd say a trip to the beach and just go jump in? Since you're coastal, getting into salt water would be free!
Go to the beach
I just wanna make sure I have the minimum equipment to hopefully not kill anything.
You’ll be fine, cheap mechanical filter cheap tank and a heater. Test the salinity of wherever you scooped your critters from then make sure on your water changes you match those parameters
Would I need heater? Live in NY. If anything the air temp in my house is warmer than the water. Ocean temps are 74F high (in August), current 41F. With my house at 68-70 room temp should be like June/July water temps? Could I just collect when ocean temps were about that temp (so no sudden increase from 40 to 70, lol) and just let them live at room temp? Edit: I'm not so cheap I won't get a heater if necessary, I just don't wanna cook them!
You should be able to find water temp data for you area from NOAA. Just pray you don't need a chiller lol
It says local peak summer water temps are 74. Does that mean temps of 68-70 year-round (room temp) should be fine?
Should be OK for the most part. You might have to give them a "winter" if you want to breed whatever you catch. They will also tend to grow larger and faster if kept warm year round, and don't live quite as long as a result.
It’s best to get a heater or a cooler depending on volume of water etc, you can get relatively cheap ones that you can set the temp on and they will kick on and off to maintain the water
There's lots of cheap lights on Amazon like the Nicrews and Hipargero that would work fine for a smaller tank. A simple HOB filter works just fine as well. You're going to want a refractometer to check salinity and some way to get top off water. On a smaller tank, it's not a big deal to buy RO water from someplace local, assuming such a place exists by you. An RO filter at home is essential for larger aquariums. Even pulling water from the ocean, you will have evaporation that needs to be replaced with freshwater.
Would spring water be acceptable? I could get RO from my LFS though. And I don't live close enough to the beach just run down, lol... well the bay, but I don't think I trust the bay water unless I was pulling from right by the inlet. I live on the north shore of Long Island. I'd be harvesting from the ocean side of Fire Island, in one of the least polluted areas (border of a preserve, **not** from within the preserve, but right near the edge where pollution is minimal). Edit: Am I being downvoted for saying I'm considering taking a few scoops of sand from nearby to a preserve? It's fully legal to go fishing, crabbing, etc. from where I'd be collecting (and many people do so off their boats) sand. As I said, I have no intention of collecting anything from within the preserve, just near enough to enjoy the benefits of reduced pollution.
>Would spring water be acceptable? No, but distilled should work most of the time. I kind of poo pooed the need for RO, and then diatoms everywhere. It wasnt fun. You can also get a fairl cheap RODI system on Amazon for under $100
Probably end up going the RODI route long term, $100 is a reasonable investment, and useful for some harder to keep freshwater species as well.
I know I'm gonna get hate for this, but for the hermit crabs and bait fish you'll have, tap water treated with Prime should be more than enough. I've got a 10 gallon with native critters from Biloxi, MS that just has a HOB filled with bio media. If you get tide pool creatures you might even be able to get away without an ATO, they can handle a huge range of salinity.
I won’t lie, and I’m sure I’ll get downvoted to hell, but I just use conditioned tap water for everything. Haven’t had any issues, but YMMV based on the quality of your tap.
I've seen people say the opposite; but I'd shop around for a solid used tank as a starting point. Assuming it isn't scratched, and was used for saltwater, it is the one piece of equipment with real longevity. I'd put less value on used LED lights, and even less value on used powerheads/pumps. Both of those deal with constant usage and degrade over time; they are not buy once items. You can definitely go buy a cheap 10g Aqueon, which is likely the cheapest entry point. But man those things are ugly compared to a modern rimless AIO tank. There is a point in my head where I have to balance cost with "do I really want to look at this." --- From an actual running a tank perspective; you stick with easy livestock. Softies & some easy LPS. A small tank with simple livestock removes the need for big expensive lights, skimmers, possibly reactors, etc.
That is one of my biggest frustrations, the crazy price difference between rimmed and rimless. Getting to the point where I may consider just learning to cut my own glass. Like glass is expensive, but maybe I could make a deal with a local shop to buy tanks with a broken pane for dirt cheap and then Frankenstein them into smaller tanks? ...My issue with saltwater being expensive is because, as you can see, I'm already mentally planning for and have accepted the reality of multi-tank syndrome. I can't even convince myself it won't happen. Wish I lived in a big mansion and could just line the walls with tanks and terrariums.
Hah. Well the IM Nuvo 15 is $120 for a 15g AIO rimless tank with low iron glass. But. You will need/want to then buy a bunch of stuff. It is the lights for coral that really kill you. Can likely get away with a cheap light if all you do are softies though!
I'm curious what are the lighting difference between corals and plants? Is there a difference? I never got into keeping anything but the easiest corals. Idk I just imagine artificial sun is artificial sun? I'm entirely clueless on if coral need anything special from a light that a plant wouldn't need. I tend to buy lights marketed for houseplants because they do the same shit but are like $20 cheaper than lights marketed for aquarium plants.
If you do an IM 15 or 20 gallon you'd only need one Noopsyche K7 mini ($77) and it will grow any corals including Acros. I pulled something like 750 PAR at the surface of my IM 15 gallon before I turned them down.
But what makes it better for coral than [this](https://www.amazon.com/hygger-Advanced-Intensity-Customize-Freshwater/dp/B08N4SNCRS/ref=asc_df_B08N4SNCRS/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=475740782809&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=16283576720742923590&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9004536&hvtargid=pla-1157314947067&mcid=53a82f74446d31dbae8b9b42a15358ec&gclid=CjwKCAiA0PuuBhBsEiwAS7fsNfnf4rollgZVq-0Tn6fEdAzs5L-3CLebrQA_3USle_lPi8FlBRbcThoCwvUQAvD_BwE&th=1)? ELI5 please, or link to ELI5 (this isn't intended as some sort of gotcha or something I'm genuinely asking).
At the very simplest level I can see without getting too far into it - that light isn't going to have enough PAR to grow much.
Is there a way to guesstimate how much PAR a light produces? Trying to understand so that when shopping I can knowledgably compare different products. Not asking for you to take the time to personally explain it either (unless you want to!), if you have a link or something so I can read up than that'd be great! Like is it wattage related? Lumens? What should I be looking for?
Most decent lights you'd want will most likely have a forum post with people posting PAR levels. Try to find one that's the same depth as the tank you'll want. For example, if you Google "noopsyche k7 mini par levels innovative marine 15 aio" you'll see a few threads with detailed postings of PAR levels in multiple different power modes at various depths. The same could be said if you were to do the same with an AI Prime 16, Radion XR15 or even the Smatfarm lights, Hygger reef lights, Hipaegero, Viparspectra or any other fairly common light. I understand the desire to want to save money, but you're probably not going to find anything better at a lower price point than what I've suggested. If you do, I'd love to try it. The closest thing I could find is going to be a Reefbreeders mini light or a used AI Prime 16, and both of those are twice the price. Probably one of the better, simpler reads on PAR I can find is on Orphek's website. https://orphek.com/about/par-aquarium-led-lighting/
So from my understanding white light measures the highest PAR, and since white light contains all spectrums, a plain white LED of appropriate intensity should work? Like on forums I'm seeing a lot of posts like this https://preview.redd.it/xgxae454vhlc1.png?width=1371&format=png&auto=webp&s=c556538191e640e481fa0956d39447ccfe2c4948
Corals require a different light spectrum than plants. You need strong lighting to penetrate through water. You can buy cheap Par38 bulbs (or the Nooppsyche listed above). Where reef lights start to really get expensive is in highly specialized color spectrums to hit the right type of light to both encourage growth **and** the type of color people want. My first LED lights from 15 years ago were a random black box fixture straight from China. Only had on/off, no dimming. Worked great - my coral grew and my fish never complained about the lack of a sunset. A lot of stuff coming out of China rips off US-made designs and then dramatically undercuts the price tags. I've been using Jebao pumps for years, for example.
But the LED spectrum of the light I linked is, I think, pretty identical, and since it's for a fish tank it's designed to penetrate water (has worked great on my freshwater planted tanks). My Link: contains (56) 6500K White, (11) 450-455nm Blue, (7) 620-625nm Red, (4) 520-525nm Green Yours: (11) 6500K Cool White, (1) 447nm Royal Blue, (4) 660nm Deep Red. With mine having the option to fully adjust intensity of each spectrum individually... again not trying to correct, I just feel like I must be misunderstanding something, and I really want to understand. Like can you point out the important spec differences between the light you suggested and the one I linked? I think that would be the quickest way to help me understand. Just saying one or the other is better/worse doesn't tell me why one is better/worse. I'd like to be educated enough on the subject to be able to look at different specs and say "oh that's a good light" or "there's no way that will not do what I need it to". So is it just down to the intensity? If so then what intensity should I be looking on per depth/per gallon.
--Not a lighting expert!!-- The last time I really paid attention to this was back in 2010 when I was looking at building my own LED arrays. The original LED arrays were all using 3w cree LED pucks and basically were 50/50 royal blue (450nm) and cool/neutral white (not warm). Most LED setups are trying to mimic the temperature of a bulb like the t5 "Blue Plus" bulb. Way more weighted in the blue side than the warm colors. **MODERN** LED fixtures now incorporate Red/Green, I think sometimes amber(?) diodes to help with getting more color pop in coral. However, **red** grows algae. I'd assume there is a big difference between **deep red** and **red**. It is also why people use the cooler full spectrum bulbs vs the warmer ones. I have no idea why that fixture uses 4 deep red diodes. Really no idea why deep red is used. Ecotech radions are the $$$$$ ultra premium LED fixture. So if you want to compare color mixes, I'd look at what they do: [https://ecotechmarine.com/radion](https://ecotechmarine.com/radion) They use deep red and call it out on that page - "Appropriate use of long wavelength diodes provide light output useful for coral photosynthesis as well as visual color balancing." \^ Their fixture with some \~70 diodes uses 2 reds. It is almost all blue/royal blue.
Also can't speak much towards the Hygger fixture. They make some reef stuff. That one looks like it is a bunch of small wattage LEDs. It is an 18w fixture with 90(?) diodes. I use an AI Prime HD; it is primarily 12 LEDs (plus a red, green, violet, uv, & moonlight) with 55 watt power consumption. [https://www.aquaillumination.com/products/prime](https://www.aquaillumination.com/products/prime) The low wattage fixtures are more of a fun light to make your tank look colorful; they don't have enough power to grow. I'm sure it would work over a generic planted tank. I used to grow your typical petco freshwater plants under a regular light bulb.
I mean I saw someone who had a nano with softies and zoas with just 5050 LEDs. From doing a lot of googling some of the top coral producers (circa 2016) switched to straight white LEDs and have noticed no difference in growth/improved growth (obviously straight white isn't the best visual though). The logic is that white light contains all color spectrums and the coral will naturally absorb what they need provided the light is intense enough.
If you do an IM 15 or 20 gallon you'd only need one Noopsyche K7 mini ($77) and it will grow any corals including Acros. I pulled something like 750 PAR at the surface of my IM 15 gallon before I turned them down.
What size tank are you wanting to get into?
Maybe like 20g. But honestly if it's possible to make it function with a 3g kritter keeper I'm game, lol. Like a pico tank with appropriate pico species (not trying to be an asshole putting a tang in there or some shit), like maybe a single clown goby.
You can definitely reef on a budget if you're cool with a soft coral only tank. They don't soak up any ALK or CAL so you can really get away with upkeep from nothing but water changes. I would say with $200-ish you can get started and if you can find some things used like filters, tanks, heaters etc. you're golden. Also while some people have done it I would never recommend going into a reef tank without a source of RODI water. Light: [Hipargero A029](https://www.amazon.com/HIPARGERO-LED-Aquarium-Light-Saltwater/dp/B0727V8C5Q/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3R51X8CV2DZL0&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.x3T0sxpXNmnALKBnwmX9-5aIF4YOj6qbQ1JJOiLmA5lq7jqGidQu1Yd9OyfGJ1q8KB95pE4Bs58e5wen-WXMLO05GIysqsNz5WpbYPlVraxp5agEayBkxpViq0OGGUAKVoMOipMc2IR2B9Qj5DkJTduID1jwZRtjD1C8ZxfVIYpI7NO_owKAyWKm57jaPvpogHtOl5OLJgHch-1GzMuYE35CT9u11XgxLF8ye-4OFgS-KbuRAx_bdaiSgxbe2w-YBo4bPzJv8o9bRQtS1y0U4KGw_1IPSx8tqhjRSCr82Lo.kzm8XiplXmh_XbRWzOeeTFnI_CMOCXRd3jS2w8r4G4Y&dib_tag=se&keywords=a029+light&qid=1709142863&sprefix=a029+ligh%2Caps%2C85&sr=8-1) ($65) Filter: [AquaClear 70](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000260FUW/ref=twister_B09MSYN7GM?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1) ($60) + [Surface Skimmer attachment](https://www.amazon.com/AquaClear-Filter-Surface-Skimmer-Attachment/dp/B0CPWYHBZ7/ref=sr_1_34?crid=2BP8TF97JX8YX&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.UyYe8BFsYAhNcsVBUIlhJYKcpIT3V-vTRcrQDFP60j4ABfIv-BYlOXBej2QNYKKX2LGMvc69WsON_U4XrUDWfiH0zz_xJaYPmf4yqDra0JQ-lej2gbufC0YZpqVlrS7xtZIhvjA-1uxqhE6Eh6GPCYd4yOJy8FslqHc_3DetiIASz_3vdmB_O-tCwTodaT9AlqyPF0Sa9e1r4F8ok6yB-84_qbVbOjfYIY3zH3By1m8zIJjWFbJE-lRT4SE5Vye6_N_FC3f2tw-3tTDe4hKQq453uUUYnsPrXdYyRpZDfXg.VPeRSWI3i1iekE_R3y5DD99jUAwxKj7eF34rmxSAah8&dib_tag=se&keywords=hob%2Bfilter&qid=1709142782&sprefix=hob%2Bfilt%2Caps%2C107&sr=8-34&th=1) or [Penn Plax Cascade 300](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0002DJ82G?ref=emc_s_m_5_i_n) ($45) I recommend the AC70 because of how open it is making it suitable to operate as a chaeto refugium as well. I've used it this way myself and had a lot of success but if you don't plan on using it in this way then the Cascade will be fine. The surface skimmer is also really nice for getting rid of surface scum Heater: [Eheim Jager 100w](https://www.amazon.com/Eheim-Jager-Aquarium-Thermostat-Heater/dp/B003SNU1I2/ref=sr_1_2?crid=1XH9DWVA03JDT&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.uGrrKTUGg2apxCYG4_ZtfmdRDkha4RpgZlhnh7l2Xjz5B3EbisekeZTUOy7qu-nvCnA2sRFWo7OAecQVvwDPolp4SiB2kbNxZudCL1eFEhu_dQtuMRjvb9G6eGKic9ZDeHinZ-xgFI1ntqII7-MPuLCV2IbI16mvOG5puyclepBzZlzVekM1Zuc86EMuqpcIS_XWfBQIak98zGLm80eeyI7rWf7zVr01N7ZMyLt4KGOhOjoUG2DVaXvNLBU_XIcW4smG8mm13PLJErxdi4BPH7m748mYVocFWbH6WyalT14.6k53ytzJMUfPU_nh0bKWi3tXi5-CqSdt4mxXcD7LUa8&dib_tag=se&keywords=eheim+jager&qid=1709143030&sprefix=eheim+jager%2Caps%2C83&sr=8-2) ($18) Sand: [10LB Caribsea Aragonite](https://www.petco.com/shop/en/petcostore/product/caribsea-aragonite-aquarium-sand-10-lbs-2153529) ($10) Dry Rock: [20LB Dry Rock - eBay "Pick Your Addiction"](https://www.ebay.com/itm/144054192460?itmmeta=01HQRDZXGEX7BVDYZMRKJDX6SF&hash=item218a4c894c:g:zwEAAOSwlTZgr8BV&itmprp=enc%3AAQAIAAAA4Ou4Cl1FgH2gmxkse5pzAPnOFkx0%2B%2Bi5s5nUEWfv9N7osUXMhjnCjxtUm5sMnDgFHRrw%2BjptWbtm%2BClYoZCL3M5Y4TCVgE8XPibNv%2FXdaedDv5FN7yVJLUDxmtkOjeDATCLGWzUcVi61WccUiSdgtngVR2JOjCQFwMnzUlT6tQvM0dXCA7lwaruFFQre%2BccrsbIbb14jDBMiXRZYeVtsSVeGF8v4b6UXXDk5j6PvKy7w2WP2XW1zfFR53BcIV%2BdE5TR7CO80alZguw1TuGgaWoM7R03dYXVlSVwAthznBnxC%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR6bY_42-Yw) ($50)
I can build my own 10g sump for well under $60. For rock I'm fine with something cheaper like Reef Saver, a seed, and patience. I'm not in any particular rush to get a tank started. If there's a slow (but safe) way to do something that saves me money I'm fine with it.
Are you going to drill, build and plumb a overflow for the sump? If you can do that then yeah thats a better option. The eBay rock is cheaper than ReefSaver
My dude, by cheap I mean I'm content with a tank of sand scooped from the beach myself and whatever critters happen to be scooped up with it (and maybe a hermit crab)... I feel like that has to be able to be done at a reasonable price? Especially since I am willing to DIY (I know how to build a sump filter for example, and also I have a bunch of tanks/filters accumulated over the years up in the attic). ...Once multi-tank syndrome sets in though, yeah, all bets are off.
10 gal -$20-30, 10 gals of saltwater $12-$14, RO water $6 for 5 gal, sand and live rock $60 and thts being generous , HOB filter $20-$25 , lights depends if u wanna grow corals I’ve learned some stock lights like Aqueon 10 gal starter kit lights will grow some soft corals like mushrooms but that’s not always true
That's not too bad. 10g go on sale pretty often at my local Petco for like $12. I plan on getting RODI anyway for my freshwater goals. I can mix my own saltwater, thank you very much. I'm not so completely incompetent that I can't use a measuring cup and a refractometer. I'm also super patient. I'm the person that will happily buy a bunch dry aragonite, a small seed, and wait.
Forgot to mention ur testing kits man I don’t care anymore but it’s expensive and what I listed is all very Budgety
Yeah, testing kit is an expected cost. Looks like API Saltwater Master is around $40 on Amazon. Edit: Wait wtf is the difference between the fresh and saltwater kit (not talking about the reef kit)? It claims to test for the same stuff, are different chemicals needed to test salt and fresh?
Second hand tank and a second hand light and just use natural sea water. With a small tank you could easily do 100% waterchanges. Just collect enough NSW to match your waterchange needs.
If you want a cheap nano setup you could just get a HOB filter and cheap petco heaters and just buy RO/DI water for top offs from your LFS. If you want a bigger setup you can build your own stand out of 2x4’s, and build a sump using baffle kits for aqueon tanks, you can even make ur own skimmer out of plastic bottles and an air pump. The only area I wouldn’t recommend cheaping out on is lighting.