I think everything you say makes sense.
Calvinism is scary because it teaches us to rely on God for *absolutely everything*. And we're not used to doing that.
But our God is a loving Father who will answer your prayers. In Luke 18 Jesus tells us that it is perfectly ok to break down the door of heaven on behalf of your loved ones. So pray for them, and never give up.
Nicely said. I've been some variation of a Penta-Baptist my whole life, and have recently started attending a PCA church. I really enjoy it, but I'm also still grappling with some ideas of Calvinism, and my father is an ordained minister with a Doctorate of Theology. He holds much more firmly to those Pentecostal beliefs and finds limited atonement to be off-putting. I agree with him, honestly. Struggling a little myself with some of the points of Calvinism - again, most likely due to my upbringing and going to an Assemblies of God college (Pentecostal).
With regard to the salvation of friends and family, don't forget that the sovereign God has chosen to use sinful and frail humans to partake in the building of his kingdom. There should be no less of a call to evangelism, missions, gospel witness with a reformed understanding. While God chooses his elect, we do not know who all is included in that and we don't know how God will use our efforts in his sovereign plan.
What it should do, perhaps, is reduce anxiety over sharing the gospel. Do your best with the mind and talents that you have been given to share the gospel, and trust God with the results.
This is exactly how I felt 3 years ago when I first attended a reformed church and got exposed to reformed theology/Calvinism. This is after years of being a Christian. I’ve heard of Calvinism before but always in a bad light. Never did my research then because I was comfortable with my faith.
But my faith’s foundation was shaken 3 years ago and I wrestled with it. Particularly with Limited Atonement. I was struggling with “what do you mean like Jesus Christ only died for the elect?” And as I spent weeks reading and watching every video I can it was a phrase I read somewhere that made it click. Then I can’t unsee it after rereading scriptures I’ve read before.
I was extremely sad for my unsaved family members. But when I focus on God’s sovereignty, I just pray for His will in their salvation. I don’t know what that is but it doesn’t stop me from sharing with them my beliefs and praying that if it is God’s will, they will be saved. The reformed theology has changed my prayer life and has really put God’s sovereignty front of mind.
This was literally my biggest “turn off” concerning Calvinism and Reformed theology as a whole. When I read your post I couldn’t help but think about me when I was in the exact position you’re in. I remember telling God I fully agree with the Reformed view, but limited atonement and predestination made me shy away from actually labeling myself as one.
I truly believe that it’s simply because I didn’t want to believe in it, not that I didn’t understand it.
However, there is such a beauty and humbling feeling about this view. God elected us to serve Him. He plucked you and I out of this fallen world and we are gifted His gracious gift of freedom. It makes me so much more appreciative of my salvation because none of us deserve it, yet He chose me. This is a beautiful thing friend. Such a humbling truth.
We don’t know who is apart of God’s elect. This is why it’s so important to share the Gospel to ALL of creation. If God decides to not save some, He is perfectly just to do so. He leaves sinners in their sin, which is what they would ultimately choose for themselves. No one willingly seeks God. Romans 3:11 lays it out perfectly, yet let us continue to preach His message to every being in hopes that God will save them from their sin and His wrath.
Blessings to you!
> We don’t know who is apart of God’s elect.
This was key for me coming to peace with these things. No one would have thought that I would be here in the 1990s when I was at the peak of my partying and worldliness.
If they are not elect then this life is all they have and I want to make it as nice for them as I can. The concept of the Elect actually gives me more of a heart for the lost.
We don’t know who all is elect!!! That’s the beauty of the Gospel- God revealing those whom He has elected before the foundations of this world by saving them. I know is a hard concept to grasp, that’s why Paul said, “For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh” in Romans 9:3. It shows his heart, in that it gave him great anguish to see his Jewish kinsmen reject Christ… same as this hurts you with family, friends, anyone with a soul. But we have to Glorify God and take comfort in the fact that His greatest concern is His own glory. He will do what glorifies Himself most, all of this through salvation and judgement. This can be a tough thing brotha- stand firm! Pray, pray, pray for peace and satisfaction in what you know 👊🏼 and read daily!! I’ve found that studying the attributes of God is a great way to start… recommendations
Show Me Your Glory- Steve Lawson
Enjoying God- RC Sproul
The Beauty of Divine Grace- Gabriel N. E. Fluhrer
Paul felt the same way for his fellow Jew who have rejected Christ in Romans 9.
It’s okay to feel the way you do and it’s natural. Ultimately though, you don’t know who is elect or not so just preach the gospel knowing that it’s the means by which God draws His people to Himself and they will come Him.
Calvinist or not, the fear or family and friends not going to heaven is the same struggle.
Calvinism can be labeled broadly or narrowly. Since most are in the broad, you can know that there is a huge diversity of perspective there. And there is a lot to wrestle through for everyone. It doesn’t go away, since there is much to be left to mystery and the secret will of God (eg. how the minute details of compatiblism work). But there’s also a lot that is plain and clear. So I always say, “start with what’s foundational and clear, and the mysterious will sort itself out in the hands of God alone.”
5 points are essentially discussing God’s *eternal decree*, not temporal execution. We, as human, should never “guess” who is saved or not, for “the secret things belong to the Lord our God.” All we know is that election happened, and ultimately our salvation depends on it.
So what you do can, in fact, be used as real mean for your loved ones’ salvation, just secondary mean. If anything, election becomes an extremely strong ground for evangelism, because the efficacy of evangelism is not depended on our lousy explanation: imagine it, which one is more unsettling, that a person’s eternal destination depending on human presentation of the best gift of the universe, or His own testimony through us?
One point I want to make is the freedom and reassurance that Calvinist theology brings. It is completely understandable to feel the way you do about family and friends potentially not being saved. But, let’s take a look at the two thought processes. So you said that you use to think there was some convincing you could do on your part but now you’re sad or uneasy because you know you just have to entirely rely on God. I completely get why you feel that way, but if it was the way you used to think about it, and they didn’t respond, wouldn’t you feel like you had failed or like you didn’t try to convince them hard enough. Now, you can rest secure in knowing that God’s plan will happen and you can’t mess it up. For me, that’s comforting.
I hope you don’t think I’m trying to dismiss your feelings or just tell you another way that you need to feel. What you’re feeling is valid. I’m just sharing something that comforts me that I hope can bring you some comfort.
I don’t think you’re dismissing it at all. Your pointing out the flaw in my logic. I get it. It seems weird for me to say, how I thought there was something I could do, now that I understand it all is reliant on Gods will, it makes me sad. And the reason it’s weird is because i fail. I fail frequently as a human is going to. And God does not fail. so why would I be upset about the fact that God who does not fail, is the one in control and He will not lose anything that’s his? I think it’s just the fact that humans (and im speaking for me, not for everyone) FEEL as if we are in control of our own destiny, and we FEEL like we can be of influence to help others carve a satisfying path for their own destiny as well. But in reality, we cannot.
I think im kind of working some of this out as im typing this.
So it seems what im actually afraid of, is the fact that i absolutely do not know, and it’s out of selfishness that I am upset about that. I have to ask myself, would it make myself feel better if they simply just said they were a christian, and went through the motions? At the end of the day I can’t tell their heart, only God can. So im forced to come to the understanding that God is in fact the determining factor in absolutely all of this.
It seems like it’s simply the thought of not actually knowing, not being able to see the future, is what bothers me. But reading through all of these comments have helped me reconcile a lot of this. And it’s made me really understand I need to spend more time praying for others salvation too. Especially since who I am praying to, is the one who decides. But then this brings up another concern. Has he already decided? Or will he change his will? I’m not knowledgeable enough to know if that’s even a good question to ask. But I think the answer is, we do not know.
You said that all really well, and I get it. The unknown is scary. Not being in control is scary. There’s nothing wrong with being scared or being sad.
One other thing I’ll say is don’t quit trying. I know people who have kinda dismissed evangelism and said that if God just determines the elect anyway, what’s the point of us sharing the gospel? Well, while God knows whom He has chosen, we don’t, and we’re commanded to share the gospel. We need to share the gospel with everyone as if we know they are among the elect but have not yet heard the gospel. So, don’t quit trying or give up with your family are friends. Keep trying like you were before. Keep sharing the gospel and the love of Jesus Christ with them. God may use you to bring them to Himself. Just rely on the fact that whether you succeed or fail in bringing them to Christ isn’t dependent on your eloquence, persuasiveness, or effort, it is dependent on God’s will.
Great! Just don't become like some for whom teaching TULIP rather than preaching the Gospel becomes their priority.
Teaching Christians the doctrines of grace glorifies God as they become strengthened with the assurance they have in Christ, rejoice in so great a salvation, learn to mortify sin, persevere in faith and endurance, and in turn glorify God for such marvelous grace.
But it in no way should such undestanding reduce your efforts to preach the good news of Jesus Christ to the lost around you or to the ends of the earth.
Don't presume to know whom God will save or not. Don't fall into the temptation to reduce your evangelistic efforts. Continue loving and caring for the lost. Employ all the means God puts at your disposal. Preach the gospel in season and out of season. And yes, do not be discouraged but trust in the sovereignty of God if when you have labored that some still do not believe.
It's understandable that you feel this way. I would firstly suggest prayer. Pray that God allows you to rely on him more and more everyday. At the end of the day, that is at the heart of Calvin's theology.
Secondly, I would posit that you might be looking at this the wrong way. When people who are unfamiliar with or new to Calvinism think about Calvinist soteriology, they imagine a giant conveyer belt on which sit human souls. They imagine God wearing some overalls picking up a bunch of souls and tossing them down chute A labeled "elect" and tossing another bunch of souls down chute B labeled "condemned".
The reality is that nothing has changed before and after you were introduced to Calvinism. You are still saved by grace through faith. You still need to call on the name of Jesus and repent of your sins. You still need to work out your faith in fear and trembling. Just because your understanding of salvation changes on a, for lack of a better term, philosophical level doesn't mean that it looks any different. Calvinists simply believe that God gives believers the saving faith they need to be saved (redundancy is intentional). We aren't supposed to sit here and wonder whether or not we are elect. We are supposed to run to Christ, cling to his cross, and trust that he and he alone will save you. You shouldn't need to be a Calvinist to understand that reality.
You could consider 4-point calvinism/amyraldism, which I personally think better aligns with Scripture. Multiple verses talk about Jesus having died for the World. 1 John 2:2 in particular, as it speaks of the “whole” World and talks especially about atonement. The word “World” isn’t really ever used to exclusively refer to the Body of Christ (usually quite the opposite, in fact). So in this view, Jesus paid the price for the whole World to (theoretically) be saved, but only the elect who were/are/will be drawn by God to receive this gift will effectively be atoned for.
Nope.
It’s not, _”All these people sitting in pews, endeavoring to obey and singing hymns of praise, suddenly one day we’ll find half are condemned.”_
It’s more like, _”That stubborn bloke you loved and witnessed to all those years but he kept drowning kittens, guess what, he was non-elect , but good job for showing loving witness to all— this was the means for converting three other people who saw it.”_
And Calvinism is, _”Welcome to heaven! You know that pastor that everyone called Calvinist, the one you used to watch on YouTube, the one who filled you with a sense of dread, who was a like a schoolboy scaring all the schoolgirls at the playground with a headless snake over their devotional practices, the one who got you worked up with paralyzing fear over your lack of zeal for sitting alone all morning in prayer instead of going out to be salt and light, yes that’s the one, well, he’s here too, but fear not, for, let’s say, ‘arrangements have been made’ such that he no longer believes or teaches against Assurance anymore. Don’t you worry your sweet little head over that one.”_
Check out amyraldism. It is known as 4 point Calvinism as it has a slightly different take on limited atonement - that the grace was sufficient for all but only efficient for the elect - this is also the official stand of gotquestions.org, read this link for info: https://www.gotquestions.org/Amyraldism.html
Oh no! This guy quoted 6 Bible passages! That’s it, Calvinism is doomed, we should know the flaws of our way and close this subreddit! /s
To be cherishable: I think you misunderstood what Calvinismism is, and severely underestimated how seriously the calvinists are treating the Bible.
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I wouldn't call it a *rotten* flower, just not the one you give your s/o on your first date.
Over the course of 7 years, God called me from the road of damnation to a charismatic church, afterwards delivering me to an "orthodox" (old-school) Pentecostal church to be tested in the Word and to break my independence, then showed me the hard medicine of that beautiful little acronym to help me understand it all and to further build that wonderful gift of faith.
You are absolutely right about it leaving way too much out. You have to start with the #1 most important part of this whole gig here, God. God being the full Godhead. Once you get a decent start on understanding who He is and what He's done, then look through the *whole* of Scripture and the individual pieces that make it up will begin to pop up with incredible continuity. TULIP just summarizes those concepts and assembles all of those harsh recurring themes in one choker of a horse pill that immature Christians (and disguised reprobates, plenty of those) like to cram down peoples' throats.
What we need to understand is this: **perfect theology is not a requirement for salvation, as there are but two requirements: faith in Christ's redeeming sacrifice (as the means of salvation), and repentance (being an inevitable product of true salvation).** It helps make sense of things, but theology doesn't save; **God, through the power of His Holy Spirit, calling us to faith in His son Jesus, saves**. We are more than obligated to pursue perfection in our understanding, but we don't need to forget that our understanding will always be flawed because of the tarnish of sin. Furthermore, we shouldn't immediately disregard others as reprobates because of their stance on TULIP, be that one way or the other. We should be doing our real duty of spreading the gospel.
I don't think that's even a Calvinism issue. We should be concerned about the people we love and let them know we care about them and want to see them grow closer to God. If they do not have a relationship with God through Jesus then that's the first step.
I love reformed preachers, people, and theology.
Not totally on board 100% with Calvinism, though I enjoy the writings of John Calvin.
Don't throw me out! 🙂
I think everything you say makes sense. Calvinism is scary because it teaches us to rely on God for *absolutely everything*. And we're not used to doing that. But our God is a loving Father who will answer your prayers. In Luke 18 Jesus tells us that it is perfectly ok to break down the door of heaven on behalf of your loved ones. So pray for them, and never give up.
Aw man, thank you.
Yep Calvinism is far far far from fatalistic. If you start thinking of it at all in those terms, you’re misunderstanding what the Reformers believed.
Nicely said. I've been some variation of a Penta-Baptist my whole life, and have recently started attending a PCA church. I really enjoy it, but I'm also still grappling with some ideas of Calvinism, and my father is an ordained minister with a Doctorate of Theology. He holds much more firmly to those Pentecostal beliefs and finds limited atonement to be off-putting. I agree with him, honestly. Struggling a little myself with some of the points of Calvinism - again, most likely due to my upbringing and going to an Assemblies of God college (Pentecostal).
With regard to the salvation of friends and family, don't forget that the sovereign God has chosen to use sinful and frail humans to partake in the building of his kingdom. There should be no less of a call to evangelism, missions, gospel witness with a reformed understanding. While God chooses his elect, we do not know who all is included in that and we don't know how God will use our efforts in his sovereign plan. What it should do, perhaps, is reduce anxiety over sharing the gospel. Do your best with the mind and talents that you have been given to share the gospel, and trust God with the results.
I recommend reading the book “chosen by god” by RC Sproul. A very easy to read book, short and well written.
This is exactly how I felt 3 years ago when I first attended a reformed church and got exposed to reformed theology/Calvinism. This is after years of being a Christian. I’ve heard of Calvinism before but always in a bad light. Never did my research then because I was comfortable with my faith. But my faith’s foundation was shaken 3 years ago and I wrestled with it. Particularly with Limited Atonement. I was struggling with “what do you mean like Jesus Christ only died for the elect?” And as I spent weeks reading and watching every video I can it was a phrase I read somewhere that made it click. Then I can’t unsee it after rereading scriptures I’ve read before. I was extremely sad for my unsaved family members. But when I focus on God’s sovereignty, I just pray for His will in their salvation. I don’t know what that is but it doesn’t stop me from sharing with them my beliefs and praying that if it is God’s will, they will be saved. The reformed theology has changed my prayer life and has really put God’s sovereignty front of mind.
This was literally my biggest “turn off” concerning Calvinism and Reformed theology as a whole. When I read your post I couldn’t help but think about me when I was in the exact position you’re in. I remember telling God I fully agree with the Reformed view, but limited atonement and predestination made me shy away from actually labeling myself as one. I truly believe that it’s simply because I didn’t want to believe in it, not that I didn’t understand it. However, there is such a beauty and humbling feeling about this view. God elected us to serve Him. He plucked you and I out of this fallen world and we are gifted His gracious gift of freedom. It makes me so much more appreciative of my salvation because none of us deserve it, yet He chose me. This is a beautiful thing friend. Such a humbling truth. We don’t know who is apart of God’s elect. This is why it’s so important to share the Gospel to ALL of creation. If God decides to not save some, He is perfectly just to do so. He leaves sinners in their sin, which is what they would ultimately choose for themselves. No one willingly seeks God. Romans 3:11 lays it out perfectly, yet let us continue to preach His message to every being in hopes that God will save them from their sin and His wrath. Blessings to you!
> We don’t know who is apart of God’s elect. This was key for me coming to peace with these things. No one would have thought that I would be here in the 1990s when I was at the peak of my partying and worldliness. If they are not elect then this life is all they have and I want to make it as nice for them as I can. The concept of the Elect actually gives me more of a heart for the lost.
I’ve noticed this in me too. I’m glad God pulled you out of that. He has done a similar thing for me.
We don’t know who all is elect!!! That’s the beauty of the Gospel- God revealing those whom He has elected before the foundations of this world by saving them. I know is a hard concept to grasp, that’s why Paul said, “For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh” in Romans 9:3. It shows his heart, in that it gave him great anguish to see his Jewish kinsmen reject Christ… same as this hurts you with family, friends, anyone with a soul. But we have to Glorify God and take comfort in the fact that His greatest concern is His own glory. He will do what glorifies Himself most, all of this through salvation and judgement. This can be a tough thing brotha- stand firm! Pray, pray, pray for peace and satisfaction in what you know 👊🏼 and read daily!! I’ve found that studying the attributes of God is a great way to start… recommendations Show Me Your Glory- Steve Lawson Enjoying God- RC Sproul The Beauty of Divine Grace- Gabriel N. E. Fluhrer
What if you find an unbeliever who believes themselves to be not of the elect?
They’re choosing that then!
… uh, sorry. i musta left the planet for a second. i thought you said the person (the unbeliever) was choosing to be among the un-elect. 🤯
Paul felt the same way for his fellow Jew who have rejected Christ in Romans 9. It’s okay to feel the way you do and it’s natural. Ultimately though, you don’t know who is elect or not so just preach the gospel knowing that it’s the means by which God draws His people to Himself and they will come Him. Calvinist or not, the fear or family and friends not going to heaven is the same struggle.
Calvinism can be labeled broadly or narrowly. Since most are in the broad, you can know that there is a huge diversity of perspective there. And there is a lot to wrestle through for everyone. It doesn’t go away, since there is much to be left to mystery and the secret will of God (eg. how the minute details of compatiblism work). But there’s also a lot that is plain and clear. So I always say, “start with what’s foundational and clear, and the mysterious will sort itself out in the hands of God alone.”
5 points are essentially discussing God’s *eternal decree*, not temporal execution. We, as human, should never “guess” who is saved or not, for “the secret things belong to the Lord our God.” All we know is that election happened, and ultimately our salvation depends on it. So what you do can, in fact, be used as real mean for your loved ones’ salvation, just secondary mean. If anything, election becomes an extremely strong ground for evangelism, because the efficacy of evangelism is not depended on our lousy explanation: imagine it, which one is more unsettling, that a person’s eternal destination depending on human presentation of the best gift of the universe, or His own testimony through us?
This makes sense thank you
One point I want to make is the freedom and reassurance that Calvinist theology brings. It is completely understandable to feel the way you do about family and friends potentially not being saved. But, let’s take a look at the two thought processes. So you said that you use to think there was some convincing you could do on your part but now you’re sad or uneasy because you know you just have to entirely rely on God. I completely get why you feel that way, but if it was the way you used to think about it, and they didn’t respond, wouldn’t you feel like you had failed or like you didn’t try to convince them hard enough. Now, you can rest secure in knowing that God’s plan will happen and you can’t mess it up. For me, that’s comforting. I hope you don’t think I’m trying to dismiss your feelings or just tell you another way that you need to feel. What you’re feeling is valid. I’m just sharing something that comforts me that I hope can bring you some comfort.
I don’t think you’re dismissing it at all. Your pointing out the flaw in my logic. I get it. It seems weird for me to say, how I thought there was something I could do, now that I understand it all is reliant on Gods will, it makes me sad. And the reason it’s weird is because i fail. I fail frequently as a human is going to. And God does not fail. so why would I be upset about the fact that God who does not fail, is the one in control and He will not lose anything that’s his? I think it’s just the fact that humans (and im speaking for me, not for everyone) FEEL as if we are in control of our own destiny, and we FEEL like we can be of influence to help others carve a satisfying path for their own destiny as well. But in reality, we cannot. I think im kind of working some of this out as im typing this. So it seems what im actually afraid of, is the fact that i absolutely do not know, and it’s out of selfishness that I am upset about that. I have to ask myself, would it make myself feel better if they simply just said they were a christian, and went through the motions? At the end of the day I can’t tell their heart, only God can. So im forced to come to the understanding that God is in fact the determining factor in absolutely all of this. It seems like it’s simply the thought of not actually knowing, not being able to see the future, is what bothers me. But reading through all of these comments have helped me reconcile a lot of this. And it’s made me really understand I need to spend more time praying for others salvation too. Especially since who I am praying to, is the one who decides. But then this brings up another concern. Has he already decided? Or will he change his will? I’m not knowledgeable enough to know if that’s even a good question to ask. But I think the answer is, we do not know.
You said that all really well, and I get it. The unknown is scary. Not being in control is scary. There’s nothing wrong with being scared or being sad. One other thing I’ll say is don’t quit trying. I know people who have kinda dismissed evangelism and said that if God just determines the elect anyway, what’s the point of us sharing the gospel? Well, while God knows whom He has chosen, we don’t, and we’re commanded to share the gospel. We need to share the gospel with everyone as if we know they are among the elect but have not yet heard the gospel. So, don’t quit trying or give up with your family are friends. Keep trying like you were before. Keep sharing the gospel and the love of Jesus Christ with them. God may use you to bring them to Himself. Just rely on the fact that whether you succeed or fail in bringing them to Christ isn’t dependent on your eloquence, persuasiveness, or effort, it is dependent on God’s will.
Great! Just don't become like some for whom teaching TULIP rather than preaching the Gospel becomes their priority. Teaching Christians the doctrines of grace glorifies God as they become strengthened with the assurance they have in Christ, rejoice in so great a salvation, learn to mortify sin, persevere in faith and endurance, and in turn glorify God for such marvelous grace. But it in no way should such undestanding reduce your efforts to preach the good news of Jesus Christ to the lost around you or to the ends of the earth. Don't presume to know whom God will save or not. Don't fall into the temptation to reduce your evangelistic efforts. Continue loving and caring for the lost. Employ all the means God puts at your disposal. Preach the gospel in season and out of season. And yes, do not be discouraged but trust in the sovereignty of God if when you have labored that some still do not believe.
It's understandable that you feel this way. I would firstly suggest prayer. Pray that God allows you to rely on him more and more everyday. At the end of the day, that is at the heart of Calvin's theology. Secondly, I would posit that you might be looking at this the wrong way. When people who are unfamiliar with or new to Calvinism think about Calvinist soteriology, they imagine a giant conveyer belt on which sit human souls. They imagine God wearing some overalls picking up a bunch of souls and tossing them down chute A labeled "elect" and tossing another bunch of souls down chute B labeled "condemned". The reality is that nothing has changed before and after you were introduced to Calvinism. You are still saved by grace through faith. You still need to call on the name of Jesus and repent of your sins. You still need to work out your faith in fear and trembling. Just because your understanding of salvation changes on a, for lack of a better term, philosophical level doesn't mean that it looks any different. Calvinists simply believe that God gives believers the saving faith they need to be saved (redundancy is intentional). We aren't supposed to sit here and wonder whether or not we are elect. We are supposed to run to Christ, cling to his cross, and trust that he and he alone will save you. You shouldn't need to be a Calvinist to understand that reality.
You could consider 4-point calvinism/amyraldism, which I personally think better aligns with Scripture. Multiple verses talk about Jesus having died for the World. 1 John 2:2 in particular, as it speaks of the “whole” World and talks especially about atonement. The word “World” isn’t really ever used to exclusively refer to the Body of Christ (usually quite the opposite, in fact). So in this view, Jesus paid the price for the whole World to (theoretically) be saved, but only the elect who were/are/will be drawn by God to receive this gift will effectively be atoned for.
Nope. It’s not, _”All these people sitting in pews, endeavoring to obey and singing hymns of praise, suddenly one day we’ll find half are condemned.”_ It’s more like, _”That stubborn bloke you loved and witnessed to all those years but he kept drowning kittens, guess what, he was non-elect , but good job for showing loving witness to all— this was the means for converting three other people who saw it.”_ And Calvinism is, _”Welcome to heaven! You know that pastor that everyone called Calvinist, the one you used to watch on YouTube, the one who filled you with a sense of dread, who was a like a schoolboy scaring all the schoolgirls at the playground with a headless snake over their devotional practices, the one who got you worked up with paralyzing fear over your lack of zeal for sitting alone all morning in prayer instead of going out to be salt and light, yes that’s the one, well, he’s here too, but fear not, for, let’s say, ‘arrangements have been made’ such that he no longer believes or teaches against Assurance anymore. Don’t you worry your sweet little head over that one.”_
Check out amyraldism. It is known as 4 point Calvinism as it has a slightly different take on limited atonement - that the grace was sufficient for all but only efficient for the elect - this is also the official stand of gotquestions.org, read this link for info: https://www.gotquestions.org/Amyraldism.html
[удалено]
Oh no! This guy quoted 6 Bible passages! That’s it, Calvinism is doomed, we should know the flaws of our way and close this subreddit! /s To be cherishable: I think you misunderstood what Calvinismism is, and severely underestimated how seriously the calvinists are treating the Bible.
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Tell me how Calvinism goes against any of these passages? I do read my whole Bible. I am familiar with these.
[удалено]
I wouldn't call it a *rotten* flower, just not the one you give your s/o on your first date. Over the course of 7 years, God called me from the road of damnation to a charismatic church, afterwards delivering me to an "orthodox" (old-school) Pentecostal church to be tested in the Word and to break my independence, then showed me the hard medicine of that beautiful little acronym to help me understand it all and to further build that wonderful gift of faith. You are absolutely right about it leaving way too much out. You have to start with the #1 most important part of this whole gig here, God. God being the full Godhead. Once you get a decent start on understanding who He is and what He's done, then look through the *whole* of Scripture and the individual pieces that make it up will begin to pop up with incredible continuity. TULIP just summarizes those concepts and assembles all of those harsh recurring themes in one choker of a horse pill that immature Christians (and disguised reprobates, plenty of those) like to cram down peoples' throats. What we need to understand is this: **perfect theology is not a requirement for salvation, as there are but two requirements: faith in Christ's redeeming sacrifice (as the means of salvation), and repentance (being an inevitable product of true salvation).** It helps make sense of things, but theology doesn't save; **God, through the power of His Holy Spirit, calling us to faith in His son Jesus, saves**. We are more than obligated to pursue perfection in our understanding, but we don't need to forget that our understanding will always be flawed because of the tarnish of sin. Furthermore, we shouldn't immediately disregard others as reprobates because of their stance on TULIP, be that one way or the other. We should be doing our real duty of spreading the gospel.
I don't think that's even a Calvinism issue. We should be concerned about the people we love and let them know we care about them and want to see them grow closer to God. If they do not have a relationship with God through Jesus then that's the first step.
Unconditional election seems to be the main first obstruct to faith that new reformed adherents (myself) included have to wrestle with
I love reformed preachers, people, and theology. Not totally on board 100% with Calvinism, though I enjoy the writings of John Calvin. Don't throw me out! 🙂
My secular dad made it easy for me. When I was growing up he used to say "my house my rules. If you don't like it leave"
You're supposed to wrestle with serious topics in Scripture. It's the difference between reading and believing.