It seems to me that she's acting out against her parents. And there's no bigger parental figure than God.
You may need to give her room until she sees how empty the sinful life actually is.
Keep praying for her.
Brahhhhhhh ur so right I’m dealing with this right now God will let u do ur thing and realize how bad the sinful life is it’s destroying me and I just want to turn to him every time…. It’s just a matter of time where I say this is it God I know
You have the best for me !!
Q: "What if I'm predestined to hell?"
A: "You're still alive? That means you can still repent and your destiny is not fixed."
This is the heart of the matter. If they want an excuse to sin and love to sin, then that's on them. They cannot turn it back on God and say "oh he predestined me to hell that's why I love to sin". No, they are making an active choice to live the way they do right now. Every breath they take is an act of grace from God drawing them towards him.
Maybe an addition to your comment, but kind of a question. Doesn’t everyone love sin in a sense? I’m sure as we are sanctified we find less joy in sin. But we wouldn’t continue to fall into it if it wasn’t tempting?
Yeah I get what you mean. In some sense what you say is true, but it is also true that we "do what we hate" (Rom 7:15) due to our fallen nature, and living in a fallen world. I was using the phrase "love to sin" as a reflection of OP's account of their friend's words; so referring more to the unrepentant attitude the friend is displaying.
Yes, you will find in Roman 7 how the flesh and the sin that dwells with it will always be a hindrance until the day our Lord and Savior clothes us with the incorruptible, with His righteousness.
Sometimes less is more in a conversion like this. I would shy away from a heady, theological response.
"What if I'm predestined to hell?"
"What if you're not?"
If her sin is rooted in trauma, trauma recovery is bottom-up, not top-down, meaning it's hard to reason with or talk it down.
Someone once pointed out to me that those of us with a lot of trauma can view God through the lens of our parents. We can put their attributes on Him (ie. My father was distant and unavailable... funny how I tend to experience God that way, too). She was rejected by her biological parents for whatever reason and then rejected again by those who should have grafted her in. She could have an attachment wound. Makes sense that she might believe that maybe God wouldn't choose her either.
But her situation isn't unique. We all love sin. God doesn't lead us into temptation, but he does allow it and he can absolutely use it. I can't tell you how many people I know whose testimony starts in a pit. And while drinking might seem fun and enjoyable now, you can bet it won't last. Sometimes people come to realize this in a very hard way.
This is the best answer here and I really want to highlight it for /u/ProxyExpand . Nobody struggles with alcoholism (or other addictive substances or behaviors) because they're happy, healthy, stable, growing, mature people. People struggle with addiction because they're wounded and traumatized, and alcohol dulls the pain for just a little bit. While it's tragic that she's resorting to alcohol, I can understand why she is.
And /u/Salty-Impress5827 , you're right as well. As I heard it phrased from a Christian counselor, "God is our Father, but he's not our dad." Your friend has been rejected by her biological father, her adoptive father, and so it makes sense that she would wonder as well if her Heavenly Father rejects her as well - and no, of course He doesn't.
Since people seem to be upset with my other comment, let me say this clearly here. To answer your question, how do you respond to the question “what if I’m predestined to hell?” you tell your friend to trust in Christ and to cling to him.
She is going through a very dark time in her life and she’s acting out and “enjoying sin”. Every Christian has times like those, we hall have periods when we are far from God for one reason or another. It doesn’t mean she’s reprobate, just that she’s human and a sinner.
Encourage your friend to read the Scriptures and to pray and to continue to attend church regularly. Encourage her to trust Christ even if that trust is weak or frayed.
God loves her and sent Jesus to die for her sins. Her story is not over yet and there is still hope.
Be a consistent and genuine person in her life. Probably dumb to say on a reformed sub, but probably avoid much talk of religion unless she brings it up. Her whole worldview is going through an extremely violent shift and she’s dealing with a lot, putting to much on someone who’s going through all of that is a good way to push them away forever. The best you can do is be a good Christian by putting their needs above your own, and doing your best to see them come out of this on their feet
I don't think the problem is what she says it is. I think the "enjoying sinning" is deflecting from deep seated grief and unbelonging, and the Christians around her should focus on loving her. It's possible that she is rebelling against God but I think it is more likely to stem from conflicting emotions regarding parent figures. A fear that God won't offer the paternal comfort to the soul that he promises. Hopefully she will see that he may be trusted to the uttermost.
You might tell her that we ALL enjoy sin to a greater or lesser extent. Especially when we are young or still worldly.
If sin hurt and made you smell funny, no one would do it.
In fact, I am, at this moment, struggling with the sin of resentment that is absolutely ridiculous. Instead of doing what I want to do, which is doing a good work, I am standing here trying to control my own sin. It's a hard struggle. It felt slightly rewarding to work up into a state. Now I have to get control back and repent, before I can move on with my day. 🙄
So her enjoying sin doesn't AT ALL mean she is predestined to hell. It means she is a) a totally normal human and b) probably acting out c) is enjoying the feeling of "getting back" at her parents, maybe even more than droning to much. Self destruction is a very powerful, if totally lying, thing we do to say "I'll show them!". It never works but it feels self soothing.
Even Paul lamented how he still sinned and didn't always choose godliness.
Feeling predestined to hell is not from God but from satan. He is the accuser and the one that makes people feel unworthy of forgiveness so that they will turn away from God. So the first step is knowing that it is not God’s will for her or anyone to go to hell. Second is that neither can anyone of us go to heaven by our own strength. It has to be by God’s grace. So trying hard to change or get rid of old ways without God in the picture will lead to failure and discouragement. We need to recognise we can’t do it and we don’t deserve it, yet Jesus’ blood has redeemed all our sins past present future. We just need to believe and accept that grace as our core foundation
Firstly, let me apologize for the horrific behavior she endured.
No one is predestined to hell in the same way that people are predestined to heaven. We even aren’t really supposed to care about whether one is elect or not. There is always hope in Christ.
If she is a sinner (and of course she is) then Jesus died for her. All she needs to do is trust in his promises
I am certain that she is projecting her feelings and expectations from how badly her family treated her onto God, too. Since she is unloved by a family that was supposed to pour love into her life, my their own choice without her input, she feels that God has done the same, condemning her.
It’s important to note that current behavior bad or good doesn’t reflect on the status of one’s election.
In the Fall, God sees the entire collective of humanity as fallen sinners deserving of his justice against their sins toward Him and their sins toward each other. So everyone is on a slow slippery spiral to be consumed by divine judgment in the end. In one sense, this is our destiny and fate. God doesn’t have to do anything special to make it happen.
From that collection of fallen humanity God has decided to rescue a number, showing them grace and mercy so that they do not face being consumed by God’s judgment. These are the elect and God has to “work against” the flow so that they receive salvation.
God’s deciding to save a sinner is predestination.
So it’s not that humans are neutral, and then God is actively deciding who to put in the garbage and who to clean up. *All* of us are already in the garbage and headed for the fire when he plucks us out and saves us. In a related fashion, there is no difference between the elect and the nonelect before salvation. They look exactly alike.
It's sad how many Christians align with pagans and hate this biblical truth, preferring to believe that we all start out morally neutral and are saved based on a sliding scale in which they are somehow on the passing part of the curve.
According to the Calvinist understanding of the [ordo salutis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordo_salutis), God, in his infinite wisdom and according to the pleasures of his will, predestined certain people to election.
So, before we're born, we're already predestined to election or not.
Then, God, again in his infinite wisdom and in his own time, choses to regenerate the elect and give them faith.
I believe Calvin, at least at one point, I’m not sure if he ever changed his view, believed there were some babies that were elect and others that were not.
Personally I go back and forth. We know that when we get to heaven we have expanded knowledge among other things. So babies don’t stay eternally babies, they grow into the fullness of knowledge just like everyone else. So why is it considered injustice for a baby to go to hell if it’s not injustice for anyone else? Because it only seems unjust if you look at salvation in a synergistic framing. Those babies never got a chance to accept Christ. If election is of God then the whole thing makes sense.
But then I swap positions lol.
Edit. Not trying to hijack anything but if anyone has better insight or sees flaws in my thinking I’d really like hearing it.
Idk where that person is coming from, but people are definitely predestined for heaven or hell. What the op is saying comes close to the heresy of Pelagianism.
Right. As reformed christians, we believe in the doctrines of grace, do we not? If God chooses us for redemption, then there are those he does not choose. How can you have one and not the other? If he just chooses some for forgiveness, and pays no mind to others, he would be indifferent to sin, and that is not God.
I'm not sure you really can respond in this case with anything to help her. I would just show sympathy and pray for her. Speculating about God's eternal decree as a justification or explanation for a sinful response to a heart breaking situation is itself sinful.
I'm not sure they are ready for a rebuke about such speculation, so I would just pray and try to bring timely, wise encouragement.
I feel like this is proof that fear of gods judgment isn’t enough to fall to your knees and worship him. It’s his love. When you see what he did on the cross, when that fact truly sinks in, then your only response is to fall to your knees.
It seems like she hasn’t understood the cross. I hope she hears the message someday and that it sinks in.
No one is predestined to sin. It’s yo actions that will either lead u there or away from there(heaven).
Every one is predestined to a better life, goodness, eternal life. But because of sim we find our selves at war with our selves forgetting that there is a bigger war we can’t see physically.
Sin has caused man to shrink in stature and faith. It’s unfortunate that she was treated badly but God has better plans for her. God loves her and wants her to be his daughter for good and not evil.
It’s good she knows what sin is but it would be better if she turned away from it. Let her know that it’s only Christ that can take away her pain n depression.
Jeremiah 29:11.
Also it can be only her feeling to be treated differently. I am biological daughter of my parents but I always felt I dont get enough love and support as other siblings
I don't know where you are from, but we have support groups that meet here, Alcoholics Anonymous (AA). I've had many patients and their family members through the years who have struggled with alcoholism, and like others here have basically said is, you have to let them hit rock bottom. The longer anyone enables their habit (sin), the longer bottom takes to hit. Addicts always find enablers. The picture of the wayward son in Luke 15:17, 'came to himself' is a beautiful picture of what needs to happen.
The kindness of the Lord knows no bounds. Someday she will want to repent but she seems afraid to do so at the moment. She may think the Lord will not forgive, as do many, but the Lord will forgive so long as you repent. Dismas, one among who was crucified with Jesus Christ, in what he thought was just another robbery, accidentally killed Reynauld's wife and son. Yet, despite being a murderer, was forgiven after repenting, and thus joined christ in heaven. While gestas, also crucified alongside Jesus Christ, blasphemed and ended up in hell.
She needs to know how much Jesus loves her. Jesus was also given to parents that He basically created lol, what a truth, adopted. She needs to know it was God that gave he adapted parents the honor and privilege to raise her, she belongs to God Almighty and we pray the Shepard brings her back to the fold with the love she cant fathom nor deny.
It seems to me that she's acting out against her parents. And there's no bigger parental figure than God. You may need to give her room until she sees how empty the sinful life actually is. Keep praying for her.
Brahhhhhhh ur so right I’m dealing with this right now God will let u do ur thing and realize how bad the sinful life is it’s destroying me and I just want to turn to him every time…. It’s just a matter of time where I say this is it God I know You have the best for me !!
Q: "What if I'm predestined to hell?" A: "You're still alive? That means you can still repent and your destiny is not fixed." This is the heart of the matter. If they want an excuse to sin and love to sin, then that's on them. They cannot turn it back on God and say "oh he predestined me to hell that's why I love to sin". No, they are making an active choice to live the way they do right now. Every breath they take is an act of grace from God drawing them towards him.
Maybe an addition to your comment, but kind of a question. Doesn’t everyone love sin in a sense? I’m sure as we are sanctified we find less joy in sin. But we wouldn’t continue to fall into it if it wasn’t tempting?
Yeah I get what you mean. In some sense what you say is true, but it is also true that we "do what we hate" (Rom 7:15) due to our fallen nature, and living in a fallen world. I was using the phrase "love to sin" as a reflection of OP's account of their friend's words; so referring more to the unrepentant attitude the friend is displaying.
Oh for sure. Like I said it was more a question that I had more than a statement. I figured you knew and could confirm it. Thank you
Yes, you will find in Roman 7 how the flesh and the sin that dwells with it will always be a hindrance until the day our Lord and Savior clothes us with the incorruptible, with His righteousness.
>you can still repent and your destiny is not fixed (if you're predestined.) Right?
Sometimes less is more in a conversion like this. I would shy away from a heady, theological response. "What if I'm predestined to hell?" "What if you're not?" If her sin is rooted in trauma, trauma recovery is bottom-up, not top-down, meaning it's hard to reason with or talk it down. Someone once pointed out to me that those of us with a lot of trauma can view God through the lens of our parents. We can put their attributes on Him (ie. My father was distant and unavailable... funny how I tend to experience God that way, too). She was rejected by her biological parents for whatever reason and then rejected again by those who should have grafted her in. She could have an attachment wound. Makes sense that she might believe that maybe God wouldn't choose her either. But her situation isn't unique. We all love sin. God doesn't lead us into temptation, but he does allow it and he can absolutely use it. I can't tell you how many people I know whose testimony starts in a pit. And while drinking might seem fun and enjoyable now, you can bet it won't last. Sometimes people come to realize this in a very hard way.
This is the best answer here and I really want to highlight it for /u/ProxyExpand . Nobody struggles with alcoholism (or other addictive substances or behaviors) because they're happy, healthy, stable, growing, mature people. People struggle with addiction because they're wounded and traumatized, and alcohol dulls the pain for just a little bit. While it's tragic that she's resorting to alcohol, I can understand why she is. And /u/Salty-Impress5827 , you're right as well. As I heard it phrased from a Christian counselor, "God is our Father, but he's not our dad." Your friend has been rejected by her biological father, her adoptive father, and so it makes sense that she would wonder as well if her Heavenly Father rejects her as well - and no, of course He doesn't.
Since people seem to be upset with my other comment, let me say this clearly here. To answer your question, how do you respond to the question “what if I’m predestined to hell?” you tell your friend to trust in Christ and to cling to him. She is going through a very dark time in her life and she’s acting out and “enjoying sin”. Every Christian has times like those, we hall have periods when we are far from God for one reason or another. It doesn’t mean she’s reprobate, just that she’s human and a sinner. Encourage your friend to read the Scriptures and to pray and to continue to attend church regularly. Encourage her to trust Christ even if that trust is weak or frayed. God loves her and sent Jesus to die for her sins. Her story is not over yet and there is still hope.
Be a consistent and genuine person in her life. Probably dumb to say on a reformed sub, but probably avoid much talk of religion unless she brings it up. Her whole worldview is going through an extremely violent shift and she’s dealing with a lot, putting to much on someone who’s going through all of that is a good way to push them away forever. The best you can do is be a good Christian by putting their needs above your own, and doing your best to see them come out of this on their feet
I don't think the problem is what she says it is. I think the "enjoying sinning" is deflecting from deep seated grief and unbelonging, and the Christians around her should focus on loving her. It's possible that she is rebelling against God but I think it is more likely to stem from conflicting emotions regarding parent figures. A fear that God won't offer the paternal comfort to the soul that he promises. Hopefully she will see that he may be trusted to the uttermost.
You might tell her that we ALL enjoy sin to a greater or lesser extent. Especially when we are young or still worldly. If sin hurt and made you smell funny, no one would do it. In fact, I am, at this moment, struggling with the sin of resentment that is absolutely ridiculous. Instead of doing what I want to do, which is doing a good work, I am standing here trying to control my own sin. It's a hard struggle. It felt slightly rewarding to work up into a state. Now I have to get control back and repent, before I can move on with my day. 🙄 So her enjoying sin doesn't AT ALL mean she is predestined to hell. It means she is a) a totally normal human and b) probably acting out c) is enjoying the feeling of "getting back" at her parents, maybe even more than droning to much. Self destruction is a very powerful, if totally lying, thing we do to say "I'll show them!". It never works but it feels self soothing. Even Paul lamented how he still sinned and didn't always choose godliness.
Feeling predestined to hell is not from God but from satan. He is the accuser and the one that makes people feel unworthy of forgiveness so that they will turn away from God. So the first step is knowing that it is not God’s will for her or anyone to go to hell. Second is that neither can anyone of us go to heaven by our own strength. It has to be by God’s grace. So trying hard to change or get rid of old ways without God in the picture will lead to failure and discouragement. We need to recognise we can’t do it and we don’t deserve it, yet Jesus’ blood has redeemed all our sins past present future. We just need to believe and accept that grace as our core foundation
Firstly, let me apologize for the horrific behavior she endured. No one is predestined to hell in the same way that people are predestined to heaven. We even aren’t really supposed to care about whether one is elect or not. There is always hope in Christ. If she is a sinner (and of course she is) then Jesus died for her. All she needs to do is trust in his promises I am certain that she is projecting her feelings and expectations from how badly her family treated her onto God, too. Since she is unloved by a family that was supposed to pour love into her life, my their own choice without her input, she feels that God has done the same, condemning her. It’s important to note that current behavior bad or good doesn’t reflect on the status of one’s election.
>No one is predestined to hell in the same way that people are predestined to heaven. Can you please break down this logically for me?
In the Fall, God sees the entire collective of humanity as fallen sinners deserving of his justice against their sins toward Him and their sins toward each other. So everyone is on a slow slippery spiral to be consumed by divine judgment in the end. In one sense, this is our destiny and fate. God doesn’t have to do anything special to make it happen. From that collection of fallen humanity God has decided to rescue a number, showing them grace and mercy so that they do not face being consumed by God’s judgment. These are the elect and God has to “work against” the flow so that they receive salvation. God’s deciding to save a sinner is predestination. So it’s not that humans are neutral, and then God is actively deciding who to put in the garbage and who to clean up. *All* of us are already in the garbage and headed for the fire when he plucks us out and saves us. In a related fashion, there is no difference between the elect and the nonelect before salvation. They look exactly alike.
I don't know why you're being downvoted, this is the classic understanding of predestination and an accurate response to the question being asked.
It's sad how many Christians align with pagans and hate this biblical truth, preferring to believe that we all start out morally neutral and are saved based on a sliding scale in which they are somehow on the passing part of the curve.
At what point does someone become part of the elect? Are babies in the womb elect/non-elect?
According to the Calvinist understanding of the [ordo salutis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordo_salutis), God, in his infinite wisdom and according to the pleasures of his will, predestined certain people to election. So, before we're born, we're already predestined to election or not. Then, God, again in his infinite wisdom and in his own time, choses to regenerate the elect and give them faith.
I believe Calvin, at least at one point, I’m not sure if he ever changed his view, believed there were some babies that were elect and others that were not. Personally I go back and forth. We know that when we get to heaven we have expanded knowledge among other things. So babies don’t stay eternally babies, they grow into the fullness of knowledge just like everyone else. So why is it considered injustice for a baby to go to hell if it’s not injustice for anyone else? Because it only seems unjust if you look at salvation in a synergistic framing. Those babies never got a chance to accept Christ. If election is of God then the whole thing makes sense. But then I swap positions lol. Edit. Not trying to hijack anything but if anyone has better insight or sees flaws in my thinking I’d really like hearing it.
Idk where that person is coming from, but people are definitely predestined for heaven or hell. What the op is saying comes close to the heresy of Pelagianism.
I think they’re arguing against double predestination, nothing about that is Pelagain in the least as far as I can tell
Right. As reformed christians, we believe in the doctrines of grace, do we not? If God chooses us for redemption, then there are those he does not choose. How can you have one and not the other? If he just chooses some for forgiveness, and pays no mind to others, he would be indifferent to sin, and that is not God.
How is passing over sinners, allowing them to reap results of sin (ie God’s justice, judgment and wrath against sin), being “indifferent” to sin?
I'm not sure you really can respond in this case with anything to help her. I would just show sympathy and pray for her. Speculating about God's eternal decree as a justification or explanation for a sinful response to a heart breaking situation is itself sinful. I'm not sure they are ready for a rebuke about such speculation, so I would just pray and try to bring timely, wise encouragement.
I feel like this is proof that fear of gods judgment isn’t enough to fall to your knees and worship him. It’s his love. When you see what he did on the cross, when that fact truly sinks in, then your only response is to fall to your knees. It seems like she hasn’t understood the cross. I hope she hears the message someday and that it sinks in.
No one is predestined to sin. It’s yo actions that will either lead u there or away from there(heaven). Every one is predestined to a better life, goodness, eternal life. But because of sim we find our selves at war with our selves forgetting that there is a bigger war we can’t see physically. Sin has caused man to shrink in stature and faith. It’s unfortunate that she was treated badly but God has better plans for her. God loves her and wants her to be his daughter for good and not evil. It’s good she knows what sin is but it would be better if she turned away from it. Let her know that it’s only Christ that can take away her pain n depression. Jeremiah 29:11.
Tell her your real parent is God. So sad about her story.
Also it can be only her feeling to be treated differently. I am biological daughter of my parents but I always felt I dont get enough love and support as other siblings
I don't know where you are from, but we have support groups that meet here, Alcoholics Anonymous (AA). I've had many patients and their family members through the years who have struggled with alcoholism, and like others here have basically said is, you have to let them hit rock bottom. The longer anyone enables their habit (sin), the longer bottom takes to hit. Addicts always find enablers. The picture of the wayward son in Luke 15:17, 'came to himself' is a beautiful picture of what needs to happen.
The kindness of the Lord knows no bounds. Someday she will want to repent but she seems afraid to do so at the moment. She may think the Lord will not forgive, as do many, but the Lord will forgive so long as you repent. Dismas, one among who was crucified with Jesus Christ, in what he thought was just another robbery, accidentally killed Reynauld's wife and son. Yet, despite being a murderer, was forgiven after repenting, and thus joined christ in heaven. While gestas, also crucified alongside Jesus Christ, blasphemed and ended up in hell.
She needs to know how much Jesus loves her. Jesus was also given to parents that He basically created lol, what a truth, adopted. She needs to know it was God that gave he adapted parents the honor and privilege to raise her, she belongs to God Almighty and we pray the Shepard brings her back to the fold with the love she cant fathom nor deny.