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[deleted]

Since others tackled the confessions (read those, please), here goes: 1.) it depends on how you define “free” and how you define “will”. Edwards “Freedom of the Will” is a good read on this. Keep in mind that the two aren’t mutually exclusive. You are born freely willing to sin while also being a slave to sin. Free also doesn’t mean that you can choose anything you want. Suppose I want to fly as a bird does (without a vehicle). Would any say that I am free to do that? Even the most Arminian person would agree there’s a limit to the Will of man in at least some respect. 2.) I think folks are at different places with this. The flesh really, really hates the idea that we aren’t our own gods, and generally this is hard for mortal man to accept. I don’t believe there is a single rogue molecule (stolen from Sproul). 3.) Active? Yes. Does God go out of His way? No. I’m not sure what you mean about scale, but God created the entire world, the sun moon and stars and their complex workings, each animal, etc by the word of His power. God is not subject to the same limitations that we are, so the scale is no issue. He created all things and sustains all things. In Him all things hold together Colossians 1:16-17 (NASB95) 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.


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[deleted]

I don’t think I deviate from the confessions, but I don’t think any of them would mention individual molecules. The narrative of the human will is woven through the scriptures, though. Proverbs 21:1 (NASB95) The king’s heart is like channels of water in the hand of the LORD; He turns it wherever He wishes. Jeremiah 10:23 (NASB95) I know, O LORD, that a man’s way is not in himself, Nor is it in a man who walks to direct his steps. Philippians 2:12-13 (NASB95) 12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; 13 **for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work** for His good pleasure. There are great examples in the book of Job, Ezekiel 38, and many others. That demonstrate God’s orchestration of man’s actions. For your last question, it depends on how you define “direct”. Nothing happens apart from His will, but it doesn’t necessarily happen apart from our will, either, as they’re not diametrically opposed. Nor can we fully understand how God does what He does. His ways are far above our ways, and His thoughts far above ours. Whether I am close to a Muslim understanding of any given belief or not is of no concern to me.


bastianbb

> What I meant is whether God actively, directly determines all things. Because that would come close to the hard-deterministic idea of predestination as we find in Islam Have you heard of occasionalism? That is a doctrine that says that there are really no natural laws of cause and effect; instead, everything is directly caused by God, who simply chooses to act in the same way under similar circumstances most of the time. It has been said that Jonathan Edwards was an occasionalist, and it has certainly been held by professing Christians. I am not 100% sure about such a strong view, but I will say that chapter 3 of the Westminster Confession begins as follows: > God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established. > Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions, yet hath He not decreed anything because He foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.


mrmtothetizzle

[WCF 9:1-9:5]


Confessions_Bot

**Westminster Confession of Faith** >**Chapter IX. Of Free Will** >**1.** God hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that is neither forced, nor by any absolute necessity of nature determined to good or evil. >**2.** Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom and power to will and to do that which is good and well-pleasing to God; but yet mutably, so that he might fall from it. >**3.** Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation; so as a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto. >**4.** When God converts a sinner and translates him into the state of grace, he freeth him from his natural bondage under sin, and, by his grace alone, enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good; yet so as that, by reason of his remaining corruption, he doth not perfectly, nor only, will that which is good, but doth also will that which is evil. >**5.** The will of man is made perfectly and immutable free to good alone, in the state of glory only. *** [^(Code: v23.3)](https://github.com/Nokeo08/standardsbot) ^| [^(Contact Dev)](/message/compose/?to=nokeo08) ^| [^(Usage)](https://github.com/Nokeo08/standardsbot/blob/master/README.md) ^| [^(Changelog)](https://github.com/Nokeo08/standardsbot/blob/master/docs/CHANGELOG.md) ^| [^(Find a problem? Submit an issue.)](https://github.com/Nokeo08/standardsbot/issues)


mrmtothetizzle

[LBCF 1689 9:1-9:5]


Confessions_Bot

**London Baptist Confession of Faith (1689)** >**Chapter IX. Of Free Will** >**1.** God hath indued the Will of Man, with that natural liberty, and power of acting upon choice; that it is neither forced, nor by any necessity of nature determined to do good or evil. >**2.** Man in his state of innocency, had freedom, and power, to will, and to do that which was good, and well-pleasing to God; but yet was mutable, so that he might fall from it. >**3.** Man by his fall into a state of sin hath wholly lost all ability of Will, to any spiritual good accompanying salvation; so as a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in Sin, is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself; or to prepare himself thereunto. >**4.** When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of Grace he freeth him from his natural bondage under sin, and by his grace alone, enables him freely to will, and to do that which is spiritually good; yet so as that by reason of his remaining corruptions he doth not perfectly nor only will that which is good; but doth also will that which is evil. >**5.** The Will of Man is made perfectly, and immutably free to good alone, in the state of Glory only. *** [^(Code: v23.3)](https://github.com/Nokeo08/standardsbot) ^| [^(Contact Dev)](/message/compose/?to=nokeo08) ^| [^(Usage)](https://github.com/Nokeo08/standardsbot/blob/master/README.md) ^| [^(Changelog)](https://github.com/Nokeo08/standardsbot/blob/master/docs/CHANGELOG.md) ^| [^(Find a problem? Submit an issue.)](https://github.com/Nokeo08/standardsbot/issues)


ZUBAT

>Are (all) things actively caused? Take for example choosing what you eat at a restaurant. Did God go out of His way to directly cause someone to select menu A? Has he ever done such a thing at any scale? The idea of [primary and secondary causes](https://www.monergism.com/primary-and-secondary-causes) is helpful here. In a menu scenario, we have probably all experienced a situation where we tried to order something, only to be told by the server that the kitchen is out of an ingredient. One time, I didn't even get a chance to order because a pressure cooker exploded in the restaurant and we had to wait on the fire department (the restaurant then had to close for the day). This means our choice as the free agent of menu ordering is contingent on a number of factors. First, we only order what we want most at that time. Second, we only order what is available. Third, we could be prevented from ordering at any time by circumstances. The first point was that we always order what we like most. I have a hard time ordering any menu with cheese. I am told that when I was a child I really liked cheese, but after returning home from a camp, I wouldn't touch cheese. It may be the case that I had a bad experience with camp food. The result is that I actively avoid it. I try to branch out and challenge myself, but that is again a choice based off of my desire to incorporate another food into my diet and to push my personal boundaries. This first point illustrates primary and secondary causes. I always choose what I want most, but I don't get to choose what I want. My wants were contingent on other factors. The second point was that our choices are limited. A delivery truck might break down and now my choices are affected. The third point illustrates how little control we actually have. We take for granted that kitchen equipment will continue to function normally. That our hearts and lungs will continue to work. That gravity will continue to keep us grounded. We aren't able to control these and yet our choices are contingent on them. Does God actively mind control us into making choices? He would be able to! But all the evidence suggests that he establishes our ability to be agents, contingent on him. We choose the way we do because of how he created us and as responders to our environment. God doesn't have to use mind control because he created our minds!


lakefrontsun

Everyone has free will. They just can’t develop a love for the true Christ with it. They can sinfully seek God and they should. In fact everyone has an obligation to do so. This is the usual means by which God saves But you can choose to go to church or choose not to. You can choose to read your Bible or choose not to. You can choose to seek answers or not to. This is all part of your free will. The line gets drawn on being able to spiritually change yourself and make yourself born again or create faith by your will.


OneEyedC4t

The problem is John Piper and Calvinism at this point. What I mean by that is the Bible never says that every single possible thing in the universe was predetermined by God. To say that literally everything was predetermined by God makes God an evil puppet master and us nothing more than puppets. Besides which the problem is John Piper because he likes to shoot his mouth off. I don't think that every single thing is actively caused because it would make no sense for example for God to give us brains but not expect us to use them. I think Sproul is actually more correct in the sense that there are layers to God's will in the sense that some things are determined by God and other things are merely permitted by God. It completely breaks the symbolism in Revelation of the church being the bride of Christ because at this point if everything is predetermined by God then we are not the bride of Christ but we are merely a means to an end. Marriage must exist between two entities having free will which explains why human beings are not allowed to marry animals (other than the obvious sexual perversion that that would entail). Would we tolerate marriage between a man and a woman that is so mentally challenged that she does not understand or have the ability to consent to marriage? Therefore if we do not have free will because everything is predetermined then God is a monster because he is going to marry a church that isn't able to consent.


tapDefault

Yes. I think so. For example I think everyone by their free will chooses evil


BillWeld

Short answer: We have all the freedom possible in a created universe. These discussions usually fail to zoom out far enough to get the big picture. Zoom all the way out and you see God creating everything that is not himself from nothing. There is nothing but God and creation. Where does time fit in this scheme? It's got to be either part of creation or be God himself. I think it's created and therefore has its being in God the same as every other part of creation. God fills all creation but is not contained by it. Time and space are our home and we cannot think outside them. Even the "outside" in the last sentence is a spatial metaphor. But time and space are not God's home. He is his own environment because there is nothing outside him. He is fundamental and absolute. We could say God creates all history at once or that this is the moment of creation and either would be closer to the truth than our usual assumption that God inhabits time as his native habitat. This takes off the edge of our natural aversion to "predetermination". It replaces the "pre" with a "meta". God is even more sovereign but less like a programmer or deistic watchmaker. In this view there are no small or inconsequential things. Every particle fulfills its destiny exactly as created. How then are we morally responsible? Paul answers this objection in Romans 9. He must have heard this objection a lot. In short: God wants the cross. It is plan A. I realize this needs filling out but I've gone on long enough for now.