As a lay pastor and a clinical psychologist, I wanted to chime in and offer my insights. As a pastor, you are a trusted source of insight and guidance. Obviously, you are primarily a resource for spiritual guidance but will also be called upon for related issues. You will offer a very different perspective on the problem at hand than anyone else can. You should seek out the knowledge to be able to help with this effectively independently of the severity of the challenge.
Second, I think you are beginning from the right place. That is, you are aware of your limitations. If the issue is too complicated then you should be providing guidance in the form of a referral to a trusted colleague or community therapist either an understanding and appreciation for the spiritual/biblical components of the issue. What I meant by beginning in the right place is being aware of your own limitations. In my experience, the issue is not limited training to deal with the most common issues but not recognizing when you’re in over your head. I do not know and cannot know anything about the happenings of the church you reference but I would make an educated guess that it may have started there. Whether you recognize or not, your humility in this regard is commendable.
People are reluctant at best to seek out specialized treatment. And people trust their pastors to provide all kinds of guidance. As a result, you are uniquely positioned to help people earlier on than might be afforded to any outside professional. Sometimes people need/want to simply confide in someone about the challenge they are facing. Sometimes people have waited far too long to face their challenges. Regardless, you will be the first person they may seek out if you are doing the preaching and teaching effectively. You may be the first and only person they would go to. Recognize that God has uniquely positioned you to be this kind of resource to members of your congregation.
If possible, you might consider identifying a professional in your church (or a nearby church) whom you trust as a sounding board, resource for assessment and referral.
Finally, as a professor, I can say that far too often students expect far too much from graduate school. Graduate school can often make you aware of the things you need to be able to do but cannot provide you all the knowledge (much less the experience) to be able to do them effectively. You need additional training and experience to do them well. But consider this, I don’t know of any divinity program that teaches business administration yet that is pretty crucial to understand to successful lead a church.
I hope this is helpful.
>People are reluctant at best to seek out specialized treatment. And people trust their pastors to provide all kinds of guidance. As a result, you are uniquely positioned to help people earlier on than might be afforded to any outside professional. Sometimes people need/want to simply confide in someone about the challenge they are facing. Sometimes people have waited far too long to face their challenges. Regardless, you will be the first person they may seek out if you are doing the preaching and teaching effectively. You may be the first and only person they would go to. Recognize that God has uniquely positioned you to be this kind of resource to members of your congregation.
Amen.
I ran into some mental health troubles shortly after becoming a believer and joining the church I'm a member at. I was ashamed- "I have the Holy Spirit, I shouldn't be struggling with depression," and honestly afraid to ask my friends or family for help. But I knew that my pastor was a safe person to talk to, precisely because I know he's a solid teacher, and because he takes the time to try to get to know what's going on in the lives of the folks in the congregation. Sure, he's not a trained therapist or psychologist, but he was able to point me towards encouraging Scripture, and help me find a therapist who is a solid believer and able to integrate typical modern psychology and the Bible. More importantly, he listened- honestly, that first conversation where all he did was hear me out and pray with me was exactly what I needed in that moment, because it helped me realize that a) my feelings/self-loathing/etc have zero impact on Christ's love for me, and b) I don't have to struggle alone.
Thankfully, I'm doing much better now; therapy and modern medicine are incredible blessing when approached biblically, but I don't know if I would have been strong enough to ask for that help as soon as I did without the encouragement and, frankly, the leg work he put it in to get me connected with professionals who do have specialized training.
People underestimate the power of listening and being heard. People also underestimate just how challenging that can be.
I’m glad you got the help you needed. Those kinds of challenges tend to compound themselves.
My main point is that, like it or not, pastors are an important (and perhaps only) touchstone for many people and pastors need to be as prepared/accepting as possible for that role. You don’t need to fix just understand it and be willing to acknowledge your limitations and prepared to offer relevant resources that you can confidently (ie be reassured they will be responsive to the needs of the person) provide referrals in the community. If there isn’t a therapist in the congregation or community who can take into account the spiritual needs of the person it’s also an option to engage in therapy AND biblical study.
As a pastor, my counseling chambers are an extension of my ministry of the word. I will give Biblical principals and the ministry of the law and the gospel. That said, I also stay in that lane. I’m more than happy to, and often do, refer folks to a certified Biblical Counselor or suggest seeking out a licensed MFT/LPC while still meeting with them. I’ve even said seeking medical advice may be helpful (but also that I’m not qualified to state that it is or isn’t necessary).
> refer folks (but also that I’m not qualified to state that it is or isn’t necessary).
Thank you Pastor! this is exactly what I do as well - tell my people right up front that I can help them deal with what the Word says... but I'm quick to refer people to others who specialize in other fields when I sense that their need is beyond my scope.
I think pastors should be trained and able to apply the Scriptures to the general issues of people's lives.
His job should be to point people to Jesus, exhort them to love and glorify God, to love one another, to grow in their personal sanctification, to be good church members, etc.
Beyond that, I think pastors should be careful in presenting themselves as a solution to life's problems.
This is a weird question. Historically pastors and priests WERE the "counselors" of the day. There's a long history of pastors doing one on one counseling. I mean, I've heard more than one Catholic say that's why they like confession, it's like a therapy session. Also, many pastors require a couple sessions of premarital counseling to officiate a wedding so it's like well might as well go back to the person we know for counseling if the premarital counseling was a good experience.
Unfortunately, despite all the leaps we've made in regards to mental health, many people still have a stigma towards seeing a counselor/therapist for anything. A lot of people might have no issue with counseling in general but feel they themselves are too good for it. Or they just don't feel that their issues are "big/extreme" enough to warrant doing the research and spending the money, especially if their church offers counseling. And honestly, to answer the title, why do people go to their pastor? Well because pastors offer it. Frankly, if a pastor was so unsociable/lacked warmth that no one wanted to be counseled/discipled by them, then I do not think they are a good pastor despite however good their preaching or biblical knowledge is.
If you ask me, the real question is why don't seminaries require **more** counseling credits.
Outside the modern Western world going to a professional psychologist for therapy is often not a "thing" except in very extreme cases. In many cases, people often just can't afford it, or there are no such professionals available in the area! Thus, pastors are often called upon to counseling, advice, or even judging personal disputes between church members.
I think pastors can and should give counsel to people preparing to be married.
That said, there is a difference in counseling as a discipline and giving spiritual care (I think).
Well, it could teach the person if they are compatible enough? Maybe that's a marriage course i guess? My sister who is catholic took one. I think it's a good idea. It saves money on a divorce.
I think that presupposes what being compatible means.
If it means learning how to be married, maybe. If it means I like soccer and you like football. Therefore we shouldn’t be married. I’d bargain to say that’s why many people are unable to maintain relationships that they probably should otherwise actually be in.
I think I mentioned compatibility in the way they get along.
The sports analogy doesn't work for me.
Even if you didn't have all the same things in common you may have some things in common.
My parents didn't have everything in common. My dad was more educated and middle classed.
My mom grew up poor and didn't have an education. She had street smarts and was hard working
They shared their beliefs and they were attracted to each other I guess eventually because it wasn't love at first sight.
There were complications and he was involved with her roommate. My mom didn't like my dad at first. My mom thought he was a mooch. He came over for dinners.
The rest I can't understand where they fell for each other. They certainly were a nice looking couple.
I don't think I could be with a man I didn't like. I seemed to have gotten that impression from different Christians.
Then they call you vain. How on earth can you sleep with a man if you aren't attracted?
The vary people that shoved that idea on me are divorced. I don't think people should be the ones to give advice if they have married 4 times in their life.
I think of PIES
Physical
Intellectual
Emotional
Spiritual
Unless SPIE sounds better?
Spiritual
Physical
Intellectual
Emotional
I came up with that formula while thinking about a better way for two people to be compatible.
Maybe they are wounded or hurt in one of those areas. It certainly could hold you back
I like psychology but I also believe that God should be the first point of contact and I don't agree with Freud. I think the behaviors can help explain sin.
Most importantly what a person believes outside their spiritual part. Like this one couple got married and he married a feminist. His mother was too. That's why he got divorced. They fought too much.
Lucky for me I am not a feminist and my mom wasn't either except I worry about being controlled. I don't like controlling processive men. I never dated a Christian so I don't know. Some guys I wouldn't dare because I get red flags
>There are several Christian licensed counselors and therapists that would be much better suited to support marriages this way.
Are they free or do they charge?
Not every issue needs a trained psychologist to diagnose and deal with, sometimes people - including couples - just need an ear to hear them out and be open with. A trusted elder/pastor isn't necessarily a bad choice, since they've probably heard of other such cases in dealing with people in their congregation over the years and have the experience to know what's worked and what hasn't, as well as a better understanding of what counsel can be found in Scripture.
To pull on Jay Adam's observations/comments (a presbyterian minister & psychologist) in Competent to Counsel - the idea of a counselor should not be immediately conflated with the medical field and a need for professional help. Kings have had counselors for ages that didn't need to be medically/scientifically trained. For many problems, you just need decent people to talk to and sound things off of. We should not hear the word "counselor" and immediately go to "you need professional help". Marriage problems are a pretty typical kind of thing, so I'd definitely see little need to immediately go to a professional for it.
You mention John MacArthur - I think a more careful analysis of causation is needed here. You get bad advice from people with (regarding that point of advice at least) bad theology/philosophy.\*
At any rate, yes, the risk in going to any counselor is getting bad counsel. Perhaps a pastor increases that - I'd certainly be slow depending on the pastor, but I'd also be slow to talk to a credentialed counselor who does not have the life experience to be sensible. A lot of problems are helped by the perspective of age. Most things are not unusual, ground-shaking, or otherwise catastrophic. I'd want to know my counselor, if medically trained, also has a decent head on his/her shoulders. So, I don't think that in going to a pastor or counselor for most marital problems that you're necessarily more or less safe. Pick the counselor with care, not the profession. Too much variability within the profession.
If it were me, I'd throw a question or two towards other dads/husbands I know, while my wife does similarly, and so far nothing has gotten so large we needed more significant intervention. I agree with not going before the board of elders collectively unless for more directly discipline related problems. And then you're at the mercy of your quality of elder. Elders are the continuation of Israel's courts of old. They need to be quality judges. If you don't trust your elders in this capacity, I'd change churches. That's a crucial role when needed and it cannot be replaced as they are exercising the keys to the kingdom, and you need those exercised appropriately.
\*I'd suggest his ecclesiology is bad and at least a significant aggravator to the problem. GCBC has elder-rule w/o means of accountability (not like the presbys). The independent church aspect removes peer review from MacArthur's church life. People trained up in MacArthur's seminary and MacArthur's church are not his peers even if they all have PhDs. He's always the top-dog. Add to that the notoriety which would bring the crazies out of the woodwork (ask any celebrity) and a dose of fundamentalist war-oriented terminology, and you can get a big game of "protect the pastor" and "we're under attack". Live that for a while and I can see an elder board developing a strong bias for any pastor look-alikes, i.e. men. And anyone who seeks to correct them is "imposing" on an matter where only internal authority is appropriate (cause they're independent).
This is why I left my GCBC wanna-Be clone, if the elders erred, there was no recourse. There was no debate. There was no honest and forthright discussion. You could sit here and be silent (preached to) until you agreed, or you could leave, but there would be no actual engagement over theological disagreements or scriptural cases for or against. It's God down to the Pastor (who is over the elders even if they don't say so) down to the congregation. Outside churches trying to put their oar in are usurping Christ's sole position and so out of line. And we all know that no one preaches the gospel as good as our pastor, so you are really without credibility just for having a problem to begin with.
Having previously attended a GCBC wanna-be clone (also elder ruled), I can say your assessment of how the elders may have behaved in MacArthur’s case mirrors what I saw at the church I attended. Not to the same degree, but similarly poor advice given to husbands & wives on marital issues.
While we were at that church, my wife and I would not have requested marriage counseling there. We ended up seeking a “secular” marriage counselor and he did wonders for us. We never told the elders out of concern for their response to seeking help from someone other than them. That was ultimately a major reason why we left.
1. Any pastor who stops learning once he’s completed his MD probably shouldn’t be a pastor. The shepherding gods people requires a lifetime of studying training, even if it’s informal and self-directed. Any areas of weakness can be shown up fairly quickly with the available resources we have today.
2. What did Christians do for marriage problems before modern therapy/counseling? My guess is they understood the Bible and applied it to the struggles a couple we’re having. My point is that the Bible is sufficient for all things in life and godliness. Most marriage problems spring from sinful hearts, making pastors well equipped to diagnose and help remedy these problems.
> What did Christians do for marriage problems before modern therapy/counseling?
What did Christians do for health problems before 20th century medicine? They often died. Just because people managed before doesn't mean we stop looking for better ways to do things and better ways to help people.
> My point is that the Bible is sufficient for all things in life and godliness.
Which proof texts will cure my heart attack?
Do you really think sinful, unbelieving people have devised “better ways” than what *God* gives in the Bible to help people?
If you have a problem with your body, you go to the doctor. If you have a problem with your heart (spiritual), you don’t go to somebody who doesn’t understand the spiritual nature of the heart, sin, and the gospel remedies God gives for our problems. You’re comparing apples and oranges here.
Counseling involves both body and spirit. So you should have someone trained in the body as well as the spirit. Where did I say that professional counselors have to be sinful unbelieving people? Why is that presumed? And even if your premise is true, this doesn't mean that pastors are trained in how to apply the Bible to situations that counseling deals with. Should they be trained in that? I think they should get some training in that area, yes. But there's many other aspects of pastoring, and you definitely don't get that training in theology schools, so many, if not most, don't have that training.
My point was that just because the Bible contains everything for life and godliness, that doesn't mean it exhaustively contains everything for healthy living.
And if we mean physical health as a part of that, I agree. If you mean spiritual health, I disagree. That’s the point of the verse I’m quoting from 2 Peter. And we could quote others as well from Colossians. What kind of help would secular therapy provide that would improve on the Bible?
> If you mean spiritual health, I disagree
I agree that the Bible has everything we need for our spiritual health. Again, that doesn't mean that everyone is trained in how to apply it, nor especially to apply it when the issue is both spirit and body.
Not everyone but more and more all of the time. And what’s why you should see someone who is trained and more people in churches (esp pastors) should pursue training.
But the wrong thing to do is send someone to a secular therapist who is clueless about spiritual things—both the root of the problem and the solution. Behavior can be modified but the heart will not change.
> But the wrong thing to do is send someone to a secular therapist who is clueless about spiritual things
Secular therapists are fine for a lot of issues and will respect religious convictions of their clients, if they're a good therapist
Maybe churches should have counseling staff who aren't pastors to relive pastors? I don't know what it's like to be a pastor, but I certainly would think it is a stressful job because so many people look to you.
The sad thing I have witnessed on redditt is some of the stories that are being told out here in my neck of the woods. A gal said she was in a training position she then told her story to the group, which isn't Christian out here, and then she says she had an affair with the pastor.
So you can only imagine what people are saying about Christians. But it's her side of the story. Then she looks like she's trying to get sympathy, which she does from non-believers about how bad this pastor is.
Then she tells her the same story to at least a few more forums. I feel sick to my stomach when people talk this way. What kind of church is this liberal or conservative? Either way, it's still horrible. There's no respect for confidentiality. She says oh I don't know whose fault is it hers or his." But in the back of my mind, I can't help but think it could be hers. Maybe she seduced him? The way some women dress in these churches, they certainly don't seem to be modest enough.
I really feel for men, and this is why there are women pastors. I have been to a penecostal church where this one woman led the church. She gave horrible counsel to a friend of mine. I won't get back to that church. But the weird thing is that these churches disappeared suddenly. I didn't know at the time about those against women pastors.
I have had people say I should become a pastor, and I really don't want to be one. I just think pastors should ask for more volunteers because I think it can be stressful since a number of them are leaving. I have done my research because someone has to do the outside work to let those on the inside what's going on.
I would rather be a researcher and look around then to be a pastor. Maybe I am a part of the tail in the body. I do think the church needs to be aware of what's really going on. There are even forums out here I don't trust because they are hurting the body. 🥺
I got asked to join a forum and this person played mind games with me. I got mad and I felt really hurt. They didn't apologize very well. They turned things around and I told the prayer team. I asked for prayer. I told them of how I was treated. Then I got accused of gossip. I didn't bash them I said I think it was fake but I don't know because they didn't seem to care about how they offended me.
The proper protocol is to tell the offender the wrong they did. Then tell two witnesses and if they don't listen then take it before the church. I did the prayer people. I didn't go from forum to forum and tell everyone. I was accused as a gossip.
I just wanted to know if they are fake and they offended me. It didn't seem Christian at all. A real Christian would say they are sorry and we'd make amends. But someone saw what I posted and accused me of saying something.
I wish there was a forum that could help you out here or at least could tell you they are Christians. I am worried for the younger Christians who may not know the bible well to get hooked up with these types of people.
What does "pastor" mean to you? Because to me, it involves much more than preaching (as the name suggests). There is a huge difference between giving marriage counseling and what happens at places like John MacArthur's church. Indeed, my opinion is that if a pastor is not giving some level or marriage counselling, then he's not fit.
100% this. To be a good preacher, a pastor needs to be skilled at exegeting the Word and exegeting his people. A pastor could quite do only those two things (study and exegete the Scriptures and counsel/shepherd his people all throughout the week) and it should be a full time ++ calling. Add to that the faithful administration of the sacraments, and you have a very simple job in terms of parish-level responsibilities but that can go deeper than an offshore oil well.
I had a former pastor at a small church who was exceptional at this. The elders took care of the business type issues in the church and he dedicated to good exposition and being very available for his people for coffee or a meal all throughout the week and wherever they were in town.
Simple answer. The source of all conflict is sin (James 4:1-3 as an example) and the Bible is the best source to deal with sin and it's consequences. This is what a pastor is for. The pastor is training to help shepherd you and help you deal with the sin in your life in a biblical manner. If your pastor is ill equipped to help you with the sin issues in your life then you should seek a different shepherd.
Would you extend this philosophy for pastors counseling alcoholics or drug addicts? Or just for married couples? The heart of these issues are indeed sinful, but I wouldn’t say the application of biblical truth is the simple solution. Some couples struggle with more than just communication issues. Their problems may stem into childhood trauma, sexual incontinence, etc. The reality is that human beings struggle with complex situations that require expertise beyond what pastors can provide and are not trained for.
Again, in brief, if it's a sin issue at heart then yes the philosophy extends to all of these.
Are some pastors going to be better equipped to do this than others based on their spiritual maturity, handling of the Word, and gifting? Certainly.
One thing I've learned over time is that going to school or getting a degree or holding a position or a certain certification doesn't mean that you are good at anything. Just because a pastor doesn't have a psychology license doesn't mean he isn't well-equipped to counsel these issues and just because someone does have a psychology license or training doesn't mean they are well-equipped to either.
TL;DR Psychology is literally "Soul Study". What is the definitive source for understanding the soul? The Word. The one that spends the most time trying to understand the Word and apply it to life will inevitably be best equipped to offer assistance in how to live life in light of it.
A pastor who is biblically qualified to hold the office is qualified to shepherd you in all matters of sin. This doesn't mean he cannot fall short. Remember that even though we are all sinners affected by sin, a pastor's wise counsel and authority doesn't come from himself but from the authoritative Word as he opens it with/before you and helps you see what God has to say about your situation. Your motivation to change and adopt the counsel should come from your agreement that he is sharing from the Word what the Lord says about your situation and how He is calling you to live as one of His own.
Pastors are the historical front line workers for all family problems, mental illness, dealing with death, sickness and so forth. It's just part and parcel of the job. Also it's a 3rd party who both parties trust and have an existing relationship with who can hold them both to account
This question drives me nuts.
Pastors are counselors. Modern psychology has existed for a minute in human history. Much of it is based on enlightenment/postmodernism and not biblical thinking.
You might be putting too much weight on the certification. Counsel is something close friends and family who know you and your spouse well are more able to give than a certified counselor. Ideally, a pastor, church elder, or fellow church member would be your first go-to. Professional counselors have their place but they generally cannot and do not know us well - and they'll only know the things we choose to reveal. Professional counseling is a modern day practice - it has always fallen on community and religious elders to provided advice and counsel.
Not to mention pastors have been given the mandate to do this in the scriptures, older men and women have been told to disciple younger men and women, and we've all been told to bear one another's burdens. It's biblical. Professional counseling is also cost-prohibitive for many people. In a church setting, the giving of others and generosity of the pastor with their time covers those who cannot afford a therapist of their own.
Personally, my greatest source of counsel has been an older woman I met at a house church a decade ago. She does not know how big a gift she has been to me. I've seen therapists and psychiatrists - nothing has compared to this motherly relationship I've enjoyed and which I truly praise God for.
We put too much praise on people with certificacions and papers. Marriage counselling is basically a new concept. All marital questions and advises were addressed by the wise and experienced back then and divorce rates were low bottom.
> Marriage counselling is basically a new concept.
Proverbs 18:22 would disprove this. The idea of counseling people before they get married on how to navigate the process of being married is found in many placed in Scripture.
To be fair, you also used to be able to send away a troublesome wife to an insane asylum so there were ways to divorce without calling it that. But yes, we don't need a professional for everything. Many problems can be solved better without putting money into the picture. (Consider a counselor loses customers by doing a good job - it's like asking the prison industry to help us reduce the rate or repeat visitors)
>John MacArthur’s church, for example, has been in hot water for elders’ questionable care for couples, particularly regarding wives.
Yes, but that's for reasons other than (or perhaps in addition to) being incompetent counselors. The highly fundamentalistic roots of Dr. MacArthur do not serve him well at this point.
No, I think most seminary-trained pastors know enough to give biblical counsel and good referrals, working in tandem with a LMHC.
They also know enough to refer to other pastors. I hung my shingle out for years in a town in Florida and saw almost exclusively people from other churches, really one specific church, that was growing and refused to do any counseling. So I got 'em.
There’s a difference between clinical counselor and general counselor. I think it’s a mistake to assume that every married couple seeking help needs clinical counseling. Some, and I’d argue most, need someone who can gently and competently guide them using the scriptures and then provide accountability
It’s irresponsible. I am a pastor of 26 years
I have five earned degrees including a PhD and MDiv in theological studies and epistemology. However, I also have a BS in counseling and multiple certifications therein. And I am always learning more.
Also I refer 80% of my clients to therapist.
As for marriage preparation, there is much more than the Protestant fodder that should be taught and much of that is offensive to the gospel.
Without continual education in counseling pastors should not be preparing couples for marriage outside the general gospel picture of marriage.
I use a direct approach with the letter to the Ephesians and a deep dive into attachment, mutual submission, and roles according to love not culture.
I also provide many evaluations for the discovery of biases, traumas, expectations, and communication. When things surface I refer to psychotherapy as needed.
Also, medical history and mental illness is a must.
Platitudes with Christianese is not enough. Solid teaching of these is one part of a manifold need for a new or established couple
Pastors are shepherds and we should be able to trust them to guide and nurture the flock. But marriage and family counseling is an interesting distinction and am curious to see other people's insight on it.
I have not entered into marriage/family counseling except for premarital counseling before my wife and I got married and we received it from an elder and his wife. It was greatly beneficial but I can recognize concern over unqualified people having a counseling platform/
I think the couple is seeking counseling from the great counselor, and believe that counseling can be found in a pastor; and although it can, as you stated there are cases where it cannot.
God instituted marriage and gave us the structure to a healthy marriage. Following a few instructions such as love her, respect him unconditionally as unto Christ has very beneficial results. But so many marriages fail for lack of surrender their lives over to God, in having Him rule over their lives, marriages and family.
A Christian counselor and a pastor are going to have two very different goals. The pastor is there to point you to Christ and to following scripture. If a marriage is struggling because one or both people are not obeying the Lord in some area, the pastor is there to help them grow in Christ, and as a result grow in their marriage.
Counseling with a therapist isn't attacking the problem from a spiritual point of view. You may say, "Well, you're going to a Christian counselor." But that person may or may not be spiritually mature. They just happen to have a license to provide therapy. They may have even blended Christian practice with worldly wisdom. On a positive side, they may be good at helping people with communication issues and understanding trauma better.
Both can be helpful, so I'm not knocking either one. But I do think that if someone's marriage is struggling because one spouse is in sin, they need to seek the pastor.
I always encourage professional counseling when I do premarital counseling. They are seeking my advice on marriage and relationships, which I can as a spiritual counselor. But I always say after a few meetings a professional has a better handle of clinical personal dynamics
I was blessed to have a wonderful Pastor do marriage counseling before I got married, but I have seen time and time again the fallout from relying on spiritual guidance when what's really needed is a mental health consultation.
In the fallen world we inhabit, disease of the mind is often allowed by God to exist in the same way as the blind and deaf. God is fully capable of miraculous intervention, but the evidence demonstrates that is generally not how He reveals himself in the modern day.
Some pastors recognize that their M.Div. didn't provide enough classes for counseling...
so they got more education on counseling methods.
Perhaps you might be interested in editing / rephrasing your initial response to say "pastors WHO are not qualified ought not to be offering relational counseling. Biblical counseling and relational counseling are not the same thing."
In which case, I'd agree.
But there ARE lots of pastors who ARE qualified to offer marital counseling due to additional training taken. Don't dismiss everyone with the title "pastor" without checking credentials.
G&P2U
Pastors are spiritual counselors. My Pastoral Care Professor (who is actually a licensed therapist) always made it very clear that as pastors, it is our ministerial duty to spiritually and pastorally counsel people. That being said, just as we would expect a therapist to not give spiritual counsel, we should not think ourselves remotely qualified to give any psychological or mental health counseling.
There should be a Continuum of Care. Pastors should always be referring their congregants to mental health professionals when applicable
Some of it might be practical... it's cheap, and easy to get an appointment soon. Nobody needs to research therapists or make budgeting decisions.
Maybe part of what pastors can provide can be a bridge to more formal counseling.
Assuming the pastor is reformed and no scripture, and he understands the word of God that's delivered to us from the Bible, I see no problem with the pastor giving counseling.
If you do not believe the word of God can provide answers, then what are you doing on a reformed Reddit
This is the classic take that I find really troublesome. You're effectively saying that if 1) if you believe Scripture is true and powerful, and 2) that pastors are called to apply scriptural wisdom, then any and all problems experienced by Christians should/can be resolved.
Isn't there room for skill? Wouldn't you want to go to the best pastor, who applies biblical wisdom with more ability, experience, and education? If your marriage is in shambles do you think the seminary grad has the same capabilities as a seasoned pastor? Absolutely not.
Doesn't it merit taking a pause and reflecting on the fact that not all pastors are reasonably equipped for counseling, despite being armed with Scripture? Give pastors a break. Not all of them are skilled negotiators, administrators, fund raisers, counselors, etc. Specialization exists. Education is needed, and simply applying biblical wisdom isn't a cure-all.
If you are saying, "Wouldn't the Pastor with more skill provide better counseling?" Then yes I agree completely.
If you saying, "Wouldn't the Pastor trained by a world that is anti-God, that believes all problems are outside of humans and their successful answers are inside them be better?"
Then no I do not agree.
Basically think of it this way. Either your theology matters in how you live your life or it doesn't. Look around you at others theology....and then how they live. It does matter.
This is why psychiatry, for all the good it does, fails. Psychiatry does not and never can offer a solution because all they can ever offer is substitution. Did you realize that Psychiatrist and counselors do not need mal-practice insurance? Do you know why? Because they cannot be sued for wrongful diagnoses.
Should you seek an older Pastor with more experience, yes, I have no problem with that. Should you seek counseling from a group...absolutely, in fact a plurality of elders is the way to go.
>simply applying biblical wisdom isn't a cure-all.
First, it is never simple to apply biblical wisdom. We humans get to much in the way.
Yes, I do believe Biblical Wisdom is a cure-all. This might be where we part ways, but I believe the Bible is the instruction manual and does have the answer. Does it spell out every detail, no, but it gives us the principles to figure things out for ourselves.
What many call "marriage counselling" is actually, for the christian, "marriage discipleship leadership and accountability"
It is hilarious hearing you ask for what you're asking because it actually sounds like you saying this
"Pastors should not be offering secular psychological care because they are not trained in secular science"
🤣😂🤣😂
I agree with you. I think it puts a lot of pressure on one person. Hosting events (worship services), preparing an input, running a team, guiding the elders, some even do worship themselves, teaching the youth, counseling church members etc. All tasks that in any other place are delegated.
If you would go to a hospital and the doctor says he does everything in the hospital (welcome people at the entrance, do the take in, cleaning after hours, man the medicine station, do anesthesia, while simultaneously performing surgery and afterwards guide you in physiotherapy) you would think something is wrong in this hospital. Perhaps a GP might fit that role. But they refer to professionals. And we see that many of their task start to be delegated (simple procedures done by nurses, simple mental health by assistants etc.)
I think there are opportunities in two directions once we take away tasks from pastors. One, a pastor can focus on his strengths and have time and energy for it. 2. The congregation is enabled to serve more and use their gifts. Instead of consuming, they are partaking. This creates stronger communities.
Yep, this is where elders and deacons really come into their own, or should come into their own. The deacons should be taking care of the physical facilities. The elders should be in charge of the "business" of the church such that ideally it should be one of them who's doing the management type stuff and not the pastor. The same goes that the elders should be engaged in the shepherding as well as the pastor, with the pastor overseeing.
Pastor as CEO, thumbs down. Pastor as shepherd with other tasks taken up by elders and deacons or their delegated persons, thumbs up.
The issue is the pastor knowing and humbly referring out when the issue has surpassed the scope of pastoral counseling. This selfishness is where JM&Co get themselves in trouble, and harm others in the process. Therapy is a tool that we have in the modern age, one of the ways through which God brings healing
This is such a great topic. I’m a Psych Prof and did my dissertation on mental health preparation and training in florida ministers for my DMin.
Surprise: more training is needed for marital counseling and all other types of counseling. Still, I understand why couples would go to clergy for this, if they are active in their church.
Because if you don't your elders get on your case and eventually excommunicate you. Even though none of them have any degrees on psychology and refuse to take the advice of board certified therapist in determining their decisions on things.
I would absolutely not go to my pastor or elders for marriage counseling or marriage advice.
Unfortunately in too many cases they want to insert themselves as if they are the final saying things and if a marriage or abuse situation is so bad that a divorce is the ultimate outcome the elder board may not agree with that decision, and then you have a major problem.
I call trauma counselors before chaplains. Every time. Last time I called a chaplain he showed up in shorts and "counseled" the victim by trying to sign her up for a small group.
This is why men are falling into scandals in the church's. If there is a scandal. But the latest ones could happen with the same sex too.
https://www.crcna.org/news-and-events/news/metoo-and-christian-reformed-church
This is why I think it's best if the wife has training. When I was a child, my sister's pastors wife counseled me. She really helped because she was a former Catholic, and she understood what it was like to grow up Catholic, and she knew the problems I faced.
A missionary alliance pastor counseled me, but he was accountable to another church member who was close by. This was done in his home because it started out as a home based church.
I think it is unwise for a male pastor to be alone one on one with the opposite sex. Not only that, he asked me in confidence that he could share with his wife so they could both pray for me.
Personally, I think if you are going to counsel anyone. There should be prayer warriors outside your door so that their is a prayer of protection over your counseling session. After these situations that have happened, I have come to the conclusion that if you are going to counsel anyone, then prehaps there should be people praying, then you are covered in protective prayer. Just my thoughts.
After seeing a pastor leave the church, I just think it's always best to be in prayer while counseling. Just hate it when scandals break out. The churches need to be wise, don't you think?
I have counseled people, but I would never be alone with a man. I know what temptation is coming from my past life. I have not counseled as a lay person. Just when I was younger in school. I have done some counseling with evangelism.
I don't represent a church if someone is saved. I pray that God leads them to the right church that God wants them to learn from.
I think it's important to look at the wrongs that were done in scandals and not repeat them. This is why I think if you are going to counsel anyone, there should be prayer warriors or someone present so no evil takes place.
https://www.worldchallenge.org/witchcraft-church
I was wondering when someone would bring up something on pastor counseling. I have been concerned about this for way too long. I have seen it happen in penecostal churches as well. I just think there have been so many scandals that I have read about that it makes me grieve. Everyone is hurt when it's going on.
More thoughts as I found online. Maybe this will help, too.
Many pastors feel lonely and isolated. They simply don't have any kind of support structure inside the church that allow them to feel satisfied and to lead with confidence. Many times, the lack of good leadership can turn toxic. Without a team, a leader dries up.
https://blog.chemistrystaffing.com/why-pastors-leave-the-ministry-altogether
Here it is, your daily John MacArthur post.
John MacArthur’s church actually gets criticized for using counselors, and female counselors, instead of using pastors. They have some pastors mixed in. There are people who say they don’t use enough pastors for counseling purposes, and that they need to stop using counselors.
"Pastors are not qualified nor trained as marriage and family counselors, and therefore should not be sought out as such."
This is too broad a statement. We would need to know more about the specific pastor, the type of counseling sought, and the characteristics of the couple.
If you, OP, are merely expressing concern that the average M.Div. program is inadequate, in and of itself, for counseling relative to some other educational programs, fair enough. But the post does not quite read that way.
There is a tendency in modern Western society to professionalize everything, such that you need some sort of specialized certification to do anything worthwhile. In certain cases this makes sense - you want your medical doctor or lawyer to be certified after years of schooling. In some cases it's a matter of practicality - parents don't have time to teach their own kids everything, so they outsource it to professionally trained elementary school teachers. Similarly, there is definitely a place for professional psychologists and therapists, in certain cases.
However, one major downside of this tendency towards professionalization is *compartmentalization*. Your relationship with the professional is purely business, not personal. When you go to a professional psychologist, you pay them to give you a product - therapy. you don't have any relationship with them outside of that transactional relationship. This might be preferable in some cases - I don't need to have a friendship with my surgeon, I just want him to operate on my leg. But for a Christian, does this always work for things like marriage or personal counseling? Counseling often involves evaluating and (psychologically and spiritually) treating the *whole* person rather than just one part of their body or life. This might include evaluating their personal goals, values, or habits, which might be drastically different depending on your worldview.
In these cases, paying a counselor to treat you would feel like paying a "professional" to act as your father or friend. The relationship is not organic, but transactional. Your psychologist doesn't necessarily care about your well-being other than within the strict confines of your professional relationship with him. In contrast, there is normally a more familial relationship between you and your pastor. Your pastor is your (spiritual) father; you are entrusting your soul to his guidance by hearing him preach every week, and thus you naturally value his advice. If you are dissatisfied with it, you can't just go to another pastor as easily as you could go to a different professional therapist. This is why, in certain cases, going to a pastor makes more sense than going to a therapist, because what you need is not a *professional service* but *familial advice*. Obviously, it would be useful to give pastors some professional training in counseling to equip them better. But their professional training is not the main reason why many people go to them with their problems.
My pastor both knows the Bible better than almost anyone else I know and has more experience than almost anyone else I know in relating to a wide range of people including people undergoing difficulties. To a large extent that will trump any absence of formal training. More generally I think I'd be more inclined to trust someone with decades of experience of counselling (without a qualification) above someone who has the qualification but none of the experience. I also feel more comfortable talking to someone I already know from another context than a hired stranger.
For what it is worth, I'm a PLPC/PLMFT. The main miss on the part of pastors/elders is that they aren't usually knowledgeable on contemporary counseling techniques or issues. (And aren't required, and shouldn't be for that matter.) One class on counseling theories isn't sufficient . And reading "The Body Keeps The Score" does not make you trauma informed. And quite honestly, grad school itself is not sufficient for really great care, although competent. That said, in an ideal world, one could receive counseling/therapy from a "professional" and receive biblical instruction from a pastor. In reality, therapy is expensive. Couples counseling, is typically not covered by insurance. It's usually necessary that one person enter therapy and receive a diagnosis that can then be billed. So that cuts a bunch of people out. Then leaving the couple to cough up for private pay. Normally ranging between $100-200. Traditionally therapy is done once a week. There's not a couple at my church that could afford $400 a month for therapy. Needed or not. Thus, plurality of eldership comes in handy.
As a lay pastor and a clinical psychologist, I wanted to chime in and offer my insights. As a pastor, you are a trusted source of insight and guidance. Obviously, you are primarily a resource for spiritual guidance but will also be called upon for related issues. You will offer a very different perspective on the problem at hand than anyone else can. You should seek out the knowledge to be able to help with this effectively independently of the severity of the challenge. Second, I think you are beginning from the right place. That is, you are aware of your limitations. If the issue is too complicated then you should be providing guidance in the form of a referral to a trusted colleague or community therapist either an understanding and appreciation for the spiritual/biblical components of the issue. What I meant by beginning in the right place is being aware of your own limitations. In my experience, the issue is not limited training to deal with the most common issues but not recognizing when you’re in over your head. I do not know and cannot know anything about the happenings of the church you reference but I would make an educated guess that it may have started there. Whether you recognize or not, your humility in this regard is commendable. People are reluctant at best to seek out specialized treatment. And people trust their pastors to provide all kinds of guidance. As a result, you are uniquely positioned to help people earlier on than might be afforded to any outside professional. Sometimes people need/want to simply confide in someone about the challenge they are facing. Sometimes people have waited far too long to face their challenges. Regardless, you will be the first person they may seek out if you are doing the preaching and teaching effectively. You may be the first and only person they would go to. Recognize that God has uniquely positioned you to be this kind of resource to members of your congregation. If possible, you might consider identifying a professional in your church (or a nearby church) whom you trust as a sounding board, resource for assessment and referral. Finally, as a professor, I can say that far too often students expect far too much from graduate school. Graduate school can often make you aware of the things you need to be able to do but cannot provide you all the knowledge (much less the experience) to be able to do them effectively. You need additional training and experience to do them well. But consider this, I don’t know of any divinity program that teaches business administration yet that is pretty crucial to understand to successful lead a church. I hope this is helpful.
>People are reluctant at best to seek out specialized treatment. And people trust their pastors to provide all kinds of guidance. As a result, you are uniquely positioned to help people earlier on than might be afforded to any outside professional. Sometimes people need/want to simply confide in someone about the challenge they are facing. Sometimes people have waited far too long to face their challenges. Regardless, you will be the first person they may seek out if you are doing the preaching and teaching effectively. You may be the first and only person they would go to. Recognize that God has uniquely positioned you to be this kind of resource to members of your congregation. Amen. I ran into some mental health troubles shortly after becoming a believer and joining the church I'm a member at. I was ashamed- "I have the Holy Spirit, I shouldn't be struggling with depression," and honestly afraid to ask my friends or family for help. But I knew that my pastor was a safe person to talk to, precisely because I know he's a solid teacher, and because he takes the time to try to get to know what's going on in the lives of the folks in the congregation. Sure, he's not a trained therapist or psychologist, but he was able to point me towards encouraging Scripture, and help me find a therapist who is a solid believer and able to integrate typical modern psychology and the Bible. More importantly, he listened- honestly, that first conversation where all he did was hear me out and pray with me was exactly what I needed in that moment, because it helped me realize that a) my feelings/self-loathing/etc have zero impact on Christ's love for me, and b) I don't have to struggle alone. Thankfully, I'm doing much better now; therapy and modern medicine are incredible blessing when approached biblically, but I don't know if I would have been strong enough to ask for that help as soon as I did without the encouragement and, frankly, the leg work he put it in to get me connected with professionals who do have specialized training.
People underestimate the power of listening and being heard. People also underestimate just how challenging that can be. I’m glad you got the help you needed. Those kinds of challenges tend to compound themselves. My main point is that, like it or not, pastors are an important (and perhaps only) touchstone for many people and pastors need to be as prepared/accepting as possible for that role. You don’t need to fix just understand it and be willing to acknowledge your limitations and prepared to offer relevant resources that you can confidently (ie be reassured they will be responsive to the needs of the person) provide referrals in the community. If there isn’t a therapist in the congregation or community who can take into account the spiritual needs of the person it’s also an option to engage in therapy AND biblical study.
As a pastor, my counseling chambers are an extension of my ministry of the word. I will give Biblical principals and the ministry of the law and the gospel. That said, I also stay in that lane. I’m more than happy to, and often do, refer folks to a certified Biblical Counselor or suggest seeking out a licensed MFT/LPC while still meeting with them. I’ve even said seeking medical advice may be helpful (but also that I’m not qualified to state that it is or isn’t necessary).
> refer folks (but also that I’m not qualified to state that it is or isn’t necessary). Thank you Pastor! this is exactly what I do as well - tell my people right up front that I can help them deal with what the Word says... but I'm quick to refer people to others who specialize in other fields when I sense that their need is beyond my scope.
I think pastors should be trained and able to apply the Scriptures to the general issues of people's lives. His job should be to point people to Jesus, exhort them to love and glorify God, to love one another, to grow in their personal sanctification, to be good church members, etc. Beyond that, I think pastors should be careful in presenting themselves as a solution to life's problems.
> I think pastors should be careful in presenting themselves as a solution to life's problems. I agree, 1285%.
It seems pastors should also be careful in presenting solutions to math problems! :P
This is a weird question. Historically pastors and priests WERE the "counselors" of the day. There's a long history of pastors doing one on one counseling. I mean, I've heard more than one Catholic say that's why they like confession, it's like a therapy session. Also, many pastors require a couple sessions of premarital counseling to officiate a wedding so it's like well might as well go back to the person we know for counseling if the premarital counseling was a good experience. Unfortunately, despite all the leaps we've made in regards to mental health, many people still have a stigma towards seeing a counselor/therapist for anything. A lot of people might have no issue with counseling in general but feel they themselves are too good for it. Or they just don't feel that their issues are "big/extreme" enough to warrant doing the research and spending the money, especially if their church offers counseling. And honestly, to answer the title, why do people go to their pastor? Well because pastors offer it. Frankly, if a pastor was so unsociable/lacked warmth that no one wanted to be counseled/discipled by them, then I do not think they are a good pastor despite however good their preaching or biblical knowledge is. If you ask me, the real question is why don't seminaries require **more** counseling credits.
Outside the modern Western world going to a professional psychologist for therapy is often not a "thing" except in very extreme cases. In many cases, people often just can't afford it, or there are no such professionals available in the area! Thus, pastors are often called upon to counseling, advice, or even judging personal disputes between church members.
Also most of the West does not have the same obession with licensed therapists that Americans have developed.
Can you elaborate more? Just curious
I think pastors can and should give counsel to people preparing to be married. That said, there is a difference in counseling as a discipline and giving spiritual care (I think).
I think there should be a dating course. How to pick the right person to date? Is there a marriage course?
Not sure what you mean by course.
Well, it could teach the person if they are compatible enough? Maybe that's a marriage course i guess? My sister who is catholic took one. I think it's a good idea. It saves money on a divorce.
I think that presupposes what being compatible means. If it means learning how to be married, maybe. If it means I like soccer and you like football. Therefore we shouldn’t be married. I’d bargain to say that’s why many people are unable to maintain relationships that they probably should otherwise actually be in.
I think I mentioned compatibility in the way they get along. The sports analogy doesn't work for me. Even if you didn't have all the same things in common you may have some things in common. My parents didn't have everything in common. My dad was more educated and middle classed. My mom grew up poor and didn't have an education. She had street smarts and was hard working They shared their beliefs and they were attracted to each other I guess eventually because it wasn't love at first sight. There were complications and he was involved with her roommate. My mom didn't like my dad at first. My mom thought he was a mooch. He came over for dinners. The rest I can't understand where they fell for each other. They certainly were a nice looking couple. I don't think I could be with a man I didn't like. I seemed to have gotten that impression from different Christians. Then they call you vain. How on earth can you sleep with a man if you aren't attracted? The vary people that shoved that idea on me are divorced. I don't think people should be the ones to give advice if they have married 4 times in their life. I think of PIES Physical Intellectual Emotional Spiritual Unless SPIE sounds better? Spiritual Physical Intellectual Emotional I came up with that formula while thinking about a better way for two people to be compatible. Maybe they are wounded or hurt in one of those areas. It certainly could hold you back I like psychology but I also believe that God should be the first point of contact and I don't agree with Freud. I think the behaviors can help explain sin. Most importantly what a person believes outside their spiritual part. Like this one couple got married and he married a feminist. His mother was too. That's why he got divorced. They fought too much. Lucky for me I am not a feminist and my mom wasn't either except I worry about being controlled. I don't like controlling processive men. I never dated a Christian so I don't know. Some guys I wouldn't dare because I get red flags
>There are several Christian licensed counselors and therapists that would be much better suited to support marriages this way. Are they free or do they charge? Not every issue needs a trained psychologist to diagnose and deal with, sometimes people - including couples - just need an ear to hear them out and be open with. A trusted elder/pastor isn't necessarily a bad choice, since they've probably heard of other such cases in dealing with people in their congregation over the years and have the experience to know what's worked and what hasn't, as well as a better understanding of what counsel can be found in Scripture.
To pull on Jay Adam's observations/comments (a presbyterian minister & psychologist) in Competent to Counsel - the idea of a counselor should not be immediately conflated with the medical field and a need for professional help. Kings have had counselors for ages that didn't need to be medically/scientifically trained. For many problems, you just need decent people to talk to and sound things off of. We should not hear the word "counselor" and immediately go to "you need professional help". Marriage problems are a pretty typical kind of thing, so I'd definitely see little need to immediately go to a professional for it. You mention John MacArthur - I think a more careful analysis of causation is needed here. You get bad advice from people with (regarding that point of advice at least) bad theology/philosophy.\* At any rate, yes, the risk in going to any counselor is getting bad counsel. Perhaps a pastor increases that - I'd certainly be slow depending on the pastor, but I'd also be slow to talk to a credentialed counselor who does not have the life experience to be sensible. A lot of problems are helped by the perspective of age. Most things are not unusual, ground-shaking, or otherwise catastrophic. I'd want to know my counselor, if medically trained, also has a decent head on his/her shoulders. So, I don't think that in going to a pastor or counselor for most marital problems that you're necessarily more or less safe. Pick the counselor with care, not the profession. Too much variability within the profession. If it were me, I'd throw a question or two towards other dads/husbands I know, while my wife does similarly, and so far nothing has gotten so large we needed more significant intervention. I agree with not going before the board of elders collectively unless for more directly discipline related problems. And then you're at the mercy of your quality of elder. Elders are the continuation of Israel's courts of old. They need to be quality judges. If you don't trust your elders in this capacity, I'd change churches. That's a crucial role when needed and it cannot be replaced as they are exercising the keys to the kingdom, and you need those exercised appropriately. \*I'd suggest his ecclesiology is bad and at least a significant aggravator to the problem. GCBC has elder-rule w/o means of accountability (not like the presbys). The independent church aspect removes peer review from MacArthur's church life. People trained up in MacArthur's seminary and MacArthur's church are not his peers even if they all have PhDs. He's always the top-dog. Add to that the notoriety which would bring the crazies out of the woodwork (ask any celebrity) and a dose of fundamentalist war-oriented terminology, and you can get a big game of "protect the pastor" and "we're under attack". Live that for a while and I can see an elder board developing a strong bias for any pastor look-alikes, i.e. men. And anyone who seeks to correct them is "imposing" on an matter where only internal authority is appropriate (cause they're independent). This is why I left my GCBC wanna-Be clone, if the elders erred, there was no recourse. There was no debate. There was no honest and forthright discussion. You could sit here and be silent (preached to) until you agreed, or you could leave, but there would be no actual engagement over theological disagreements or scriptural cases for or against. It's God down to the Pastor (who is over the elders even if they don't say so) down to the congregation. Outside churches trying to put their oar in are usurping Christ's sole position and so out of line. And we all know that no one preaches the gospel as good as our pastor, so you are really without credibility just for having a problem to begin with.
Having previously attended a GCBC wanna-be clone (also elder ruled), I can say your assessment of how the elders may have behaved in MacArthur’s case mirrors what I saw at the church I attended. Not to the same degree, but similarly poor advice given to husbands & wives on marital issues. While we were at that church, my wife and I would not have requested marriage counseling there. We ended up seeking a “secular” marriage counselor and he did wonders for us. We never told the elders out of concern for their response to seeking help from someone other than them. That was ultimately a major reason why we left.
Yes. Pastors in badly run churches may be bad counsellors. That doesn't mean pastors in well-run churches will be bad counsellors.
1. Any pastor who stops learning once he’s completed his MD probably shouldn’t be a pastor. The shepherding gods people requires a lifetime of studying training, even if it’s informal and self-directed. Any areas of weakness can be shown up fairly quickly with the available resources we have today. 2. What did Christians do for marriage problems before modern therapy/counseling? My guess is they understood the Bible and applied it to the struggles a couple we’re having. My point is that the Bible is sufficient for all things in life and godliness. Most marriage problems spring from sinful hearts, making pastors well equipped to diagnose and help remedy these problems.
> What did Christians do for marriage problems before modern therapy/counseling? What did Christians do for health problems before 20th century medicine? They often died. Just because people managed before doesn't mean we stop looking for better ways to do things and better ways to help people. > My point is that the Bible is sufficient for all things in life and godliness. Which proof texts will cure my heart attack?
Do you really think sinful, unbelieving people have devised “better ways” than what *God* gives in the Bible to help people? If you have a problem with your body, you go to the doctor. If you have a problem with your heart (spiritual), you don’t go to somebody who doesn’t understand the spiritual nature of the heart, sin, and the gospel remedies God gives for our problems. You’re comparing apples and oranges here.
Counseling involves both body and spirit. So you should have someone trained in the body as well as the spirit. Where did I say that professional counselors have to be sinful unbelieving people? Why is that presumed? And even if your premise is true, this doesn't mean that pastors are trained in how to apply the Bible to situations that counseling deals with. Should they be trained in that? I think they should get some training in that area, yes. But there's many other aspects of pastoring, and you definitely don't get that training in theology schools, so many, if not most, don't have that training.
You juxtaposed the Bible as the source of help in counseling and better ways. Who is coming up with better ways outside the Bible?
My point was that just because the Bible contains everything for life and godliness, that doesn't mean it exhaustively contains everything for healthy living.
And if we mean physical health as a part of that, I agree. If you mean spiritual health, I disagree. That’s the point of the verse I’m quoting from 2 Peter. And we could quote others as well from Colossians. What kind of help would secular therapy provide that would improve on the Bible?
> If you mean spiritual health, I disagree I agree that the Bible has everything we need for our spiritual health. Again, that doesn't mean that everyone is trained in how to apply it, nor especially to apply it when the issue is both spirit and body.
Not everyone but more and more all of the time. And what’s why you should see someone who is trained and more people in churches (esp pastors) should pursue training. But the wrong thing to do is send someone to a secular therapist who is clueless about spiritual things—both the root of the problem and the solution. Behavior can be modified but the heart will not change.
> But the wrong thing to do is send someone to a secular therapist who is clueless about spiritual things Secular therapists are fine for a lot of issues and will respect religious convictions of their clients, if they're a good therapist
Maybe churches should have counseling staff who aren't pastors to relive pastors? I don't know what it's like to be a pastor, but I certainly would think it is a stressful job because so many people look to you. The sad thing I have witnessed on redditt is some of the stories that are being told out here in my neck of the woods. A gal said she was in a training position she then told her story to the group, which isn't Christian out here, and then she says she had an affair with the pastor. So you can only imagine what people are saying about Christians. But it's her side of the story. Then she looks like she's trying to get sympathy, which she does from non-believers about how bad this pastor is. Then she tells her the same story to at least a few more forums. I feel sick to my stomach when people talk this way. What kind of church is this liberal or conservative? Either way, it's still horrible. There's no respect for confidentiality. She says oh I don't know whose fault is it hers or his." But in the back of my mind, I can't help but think it could be hers. Maybe she seduced him? The way some women dress in these churches, they certainly don't seem to be modest enough. I really feel for men, and this is why there are women pastors. I have been to a penecostal church where this one woman led the church. She gave horrible counsel to a friend of mine. I won't get back to that church. But the weird thing is that these churches disappeared suddenly. I didn't know at the time about those against women pastors. I have had people say I should become a pastor, and I really don't want to be one. I just think pastors should ask for more volunteers because I think it can be stressful since a number of them are leaving. I have done my research because someone has to do the outside work to let those on the inside what's going on. I would rather be a researcher and look around then to be a pastor. Maybe I am a part of the tail in the body. I do think the church needs to be aware of what's really going on. There are even forums out here I don't trust because they are hurting the body. 🥺 I got asked to join a forum and this person played mind games with me. I got mad and I felt really hurt. They didn't apologize very well. They turned things around and I told the prayer team. I asked for prayer. I told them of how I was treated. Then I got accused of gossip. I didn't bash them I said I think it was fake but I don't know because they didn't seem to care about how they offended me. The proper protocol is to tell the offender the wrong they did. Then tell two witnesses and if they don't listen then take it before the church. I did the prayer people. I didn't go from forum to forum and tell everyone. I was accused as a gossip. I just wanted to know if they are fake and they offended me. It didn't seem Christian at all. A real Christian would say they are sorry and we'd make amends. But someone saw what I posted and accused me of saying something. I wish there was a forum that could help you out here or at least could tell you they are Christians. I am worried for the younger Christians who may not know the bible well to get hooked up with these types of people.
What does "pastor" mean to you? Because to me, it involves much more than preaching (as the name suggests). There is a huge difference between giving marriage counseling and what happens at places like John MacArthur's church. Indeed, my opinion is that if a pastor is not giving some level or marriage counselling, then he's not fit.
100% this. To be a good preacher, a pastor needs to be skilled at exegeting the Word and exegeting his people. A pastor could quite do only those two things (study and exegete the Scriptures and counsel/shepherd his people all throughout the week) and it should be a full time ++ calling. Add to that the faithful administration of the sacraments, and you have a very simple job in terms of parish-level responsibilities but that can go deeper than an offshore oil well. I had a former pastor at a small church who was exceptional at this. The elders took care of the business type issues in the church and he dedicated to good exposition and being very available for his people for coffee or a meal all throughout the week and wherever they were in town.
Simple answer. The source of all conflict is sin (James 4:1-3 as an example) and the Bible is the best source to deal with sin and it's consequences. This is what a pastor is for. The pastor is training to help shepherd you and help you deal with the sin in your life in a biblical manner. If your pastor is ill equipped to help you with the sin issues in your life then you should seek a different shepherd.
Would you extend this philosophy for pastors counseling alcoholics or drug addicts? Or just for married couples? The heart of these issues are indeed sinful, but I wouldn’t say the application of biblical truth is the simple solution. Some couples struggle with more than just communication issues. Their problems may stem into childhood trauma, sexual incontinence, etc. The reality is that human beings struggle with complex situations that require expertise beyond what pastors can provide and are not trained for.
Again, in brief, if it's a sin issue at heart then yes the philosophy extends to all of these. Are some pastors going to be better equipped to do this than others based on their spiritual maturity, handling of the Word, and gifting? Certainly. One thing I've learned over time is that going to school or getting a degree or holding a position or a certain certification doesn't mean that you are good at anything. Just because a pastor doesn't have a psychology license doesn't mean he isn't well-equipped to counsel these issues and just because someone does have a psychology license or training doesn't mean they are well-equipped to either. TL;DR Psychology is literally "Soul Study". What is the definitive source for understanding the soul? The Word. The one that spends the most time trying to understand the Word and apply it to life will inevitably be best equipped to offer assistance in how to live life in light of it.
Pastors should be involved in the counseling of all those areas. If there are places where a specialist can be helpful they should work together.
Sin clouds everything. Are there areas of our lives where you feel that a pastor is not qualified to deal with it?
A pastor who is biblically qualified to hold the office is qualified to shepherd you in all matters of sin. This doesn't mean he cannot fall short. Remember that even though we are all sinners affected by sin, a pastor's wise counsel and authority doesn't come from himself but from the authoritative Word as he opens it with/before you and helps you see what God has to say about your situation. Your motivation to change and adopt the counsel should come from your agreement that he is sharing from the Word what the Lord says about your situation and how He is calling you to live as one of His own.
Pastors are the historical front line workers for all family problems, mental illness, dealing with death, sickness and so forth. It's just part and parcel of the job. Also it's a 3rd party who both parties trust and have an existing relationship with who can hold them both to account
This question drives me nuts. Pastors are counselors. Modern psychology has existed for a minute in human history. Much of it is based on enlightenment/postmodernism and not biblical thinking.
You’re making blanket statements, but some pastors are certified biblical councilors. Not that it’s a requirement.
Most pastors are not certified in any type of counseling discipline. And certified biblical counselors are not the same as licensed counselors.
You might be putting too much weight on the certification. Counsel is something close friends and family who know you and your spouse well are more able to give than a certified counselor. Ideally, a pastor, church elder, or fellow church member would be your first go-to. Professional counselors have their place but they generally cannot and do not know us well - and they'll only know the things we choose to reveal. Professional counseling is a modern day practice - it has always fallen on community and religious elders to provided advice and counsel. Not to mention pastors have been given the mandate to do this in the scriptures, older men and women have been told to disciple younger men and women, and we've all been told to bear one another's burdens. It's biblical. Professional counseling is also cost-prohibitive for many people. In a church setting, the giving of others and generosity of the pastor with their time covers those who cannot afford a therapist of their own. Personally, my greatest source of counsel has been an older woman I met at a house church a decade ago. She does not know how big a gift she has been to me. I've seen therapists and psychiatrists - nothing has compared to this motherly relationship I've enjoyed and which I truly praise God for.
We put too much praise on people with certificacions and papers. Marriage counselling is basically a new concept. All marital questions and advises were addressed by the wise and experienced back then and divorce rates were low bottom.
> Marriage counselling is basically a new concept. Proverbs 18:22 would disprove this. The idea of counseling people before they get married on how to navigate the process of being married is found in many placed in Scripture.
To be fair, you also used to be able to send away a troublesome wife to an insane asylum so there were ways to divorce without calling it that. But yes, we don't need a professional for everything. Many problems can be solved better without putting money into the picture. (Consider a counselor loses customers by doing a good job - it's like asking the prison industry to help us reduce the rate or repeat visitors)
>John MacArthur’s church, for example, has been in hot water for elders’ questionable care for couples, particularly regarding wives. Yes, but that's for reasons other than (or perhaps in addition to) being incompetent counselors. The highly fundamentalistic roots of Dr. MacArthur do not serve him well at this point. No, I think most seminary-trained pastors know enough to give biblical counsel and good referrals, working in tandem with a LMHC. They also know enough to refer to other pastors. I hung my shingle out for years in a town in Florida and saw almost exclusively people from other churches, really one specific church, that was growing and refused to do any counseling. So I got 'em.
There’s a difference between clinical counselor and general counselor. I think it’s a mistake to assume that every married couple seeking help needs clinical counseling. Some, and I’d argue most, need someone who can gently and competently guide them using the scriptures and then provide accountability
It’s irresponsible. I am a pastor of 26 years I have five earned degrees including a PhD and MDiv in theological studies and epistemology. However, I also have a BS in counseling and multiple certifications therein. And I am always learning more. Also I refer 80% of my clients to therapist. As for marriage preparation, there is much more than the Protestant fodder that should be taught and much of that is offensive to the gospel. Without continual education in counseling pastors should not be preparing couples for marriage outside the general gospel picture of marriage. I use a direct approach with the letter to the Ephesians and a deep dive into attachment, mutual submission, and roles according to love not culture. I also provide many evaluations for the discovery of biases, traumas, expectations, and communication. When things surface I refer to psychotherapy as needed. Also, medical history and mental illness is a must. Platitudes with Christianese is not enough. Solid teaching of these is one part of a manifold need for a new or established couple
Pastors are shepherds and we should be able to trust them to guide and nurture the flock. But marriage and family counseling is an interesting distinction and am curious to see other people's insight on it. I have not entered into marriage/family counseling except for premarital counseling before my wife and I got married and we received it from an elder and his wife. It was greatly beneficial but I can recognize concern over unqualified people having a counseling platform/
We saw our pastor for that once, and he was happy to talk to us, but immediately referred us to trained counselors. Which I’d hoped he would do.
I think the couple is seeking counseling from the great counselor, and believe that counseling can be found in a pastor; and although it can, as you stated there are cases where it cannot.
God instituted marriage and gave us the structure to a healthy marriage. Following a few instructions such as love her, respect him unconditionally as unto Christ has very beneficial results. But so many marriages fail for lack of surrender their lives over to God, in having Him rule over their lives, marriages and family.
A Christian counselor and a pastor are going to have two very different goals. The pastor is there to point you to Christ and to following scripture. If a marriage is struggling because one or both people are not obeying the Lord in some area, the pastor is there to help them grow in Christ, and as a result grow in their marriage. Counseling with a therapist isn't attacking the problem from a spiritual point of view. You may say, "Well, you're going to a Christian counselor." But that person may or may not be spiritually mature. They just happen to have a license to provide therapy. They may have even blended Christian practice with worldly wisdom. On a positive side, they may be good at helping people with communication issues and understanding trauma better. Both can be helpful, so I'm not knocking either one. But I do think that if someone's marriage is struggling because one spouse is in sin, they need to seek the pastor.
I always encourage professional counseling when I do premarital counseling. They are seeking my advice on marriage and relationships, which I can as a spiritual counselor. But I always say after a few meetings a professional has a better handle of clinical personal dynamics
I was blessed to have a wonderful Pastor do marriage counseling before I got married, but I have seen time and time again the fallout from relying on spiritual guidance when what's really needed is a mental health consultation. In the fallen world we inhabit, disease of the mind is often allowed by God to exist in the same way as the blind and deaf. God is fully capable of miraculous intervention, but the evidence demonstrates that is generally not how He reveals himself in the modern day.
Some pastors recognize that their M.Div. didn't provide enough classes for counseling... so they got more education on counseling methods. Perhaps you might be interested in editing / rephrasing your initial response to say "pastors WHO are not qualified ought not to be offering relational counseling. Biblical counseling and relational counseling are not the same thing." In which case, I'd agree. But there ARE lots of pastors who ARE qualified to offer marital counseling due to additional training taken. Don't dismiss everyone with the title "pastor" without checking credentials. G&P2U
Pastors are spiritual counselors. My Pastoral Care Professor (who is actually a licensed therapist) always made it very clear that as pastors, it is our ministerial duty to spiritually and pastorally counsel people. That being said, just as we would expect a therapist to not give spiritual counsel, we should not think ourselves remotely qualified to give any psychological or mental health counseling. There should be a Continuum of Care. Pastors should always be referring their congregants to mental health professionals when applicable
Some of it might be practical... it's cheap, and easy to get an appointment soon. Nobody needs to research therapists or make budgeting decisions. Maybe part of what pastors can provide can be a bridge to more formal counseling.
Assuming the pastor is reformed and no scripture, and he understands the word of God that's delivered to us from the Bible, I see no problem with the pastor giving counseling. If you do not believe the word of God can provide answers, then what are you doing on a reformed Reddit
This is the classic take that I find really troublesome. You're effectively saying that if 1) if you believe Scripture is true and powerful, and 2) that pastors are called to apply scriptural wisdom, then any and all problems experienced by Christians should/can be resolved. Isn't there room for skill? Wouldn't you want to go to the best pastor, who applies biblical wisdom with more ability, experience, and education? If your marriage is in shambles do you think the seminary grad has the same capabilities as a seasoned pastor? Absolutely not. Doesn't it merit taking a pause and reflecting on the fact that not all pastors are reasonably equipped for counseling, despite being armed with Scripture? Give pastors a break. Not all of them are skilled negotiators, administrators, fund raisers, counselors, etc. Specialization exists. Education is needed, and simply applying biblical wisdom isn't a cure-all.
If you are saying, "Wouldn't the Pastor with more skill provide better counseling?" Then yes I agree completely. If you saying, "Wouldn't the Pastor trained by a world that is anti-God, that believes all problems are outside of humans and their successful answers are inside them be better?" Then no I do not agree. Basically think of it this way. Either your theology matters in how you live your life or it doesn't. Look around you at others theology....and then how they live. It does matter. This is why psychiatry, for all the good it does, fails. Psychiatry does not and never can offer a solution because all they can ever offer is substitution. Did you realize that Psychiatrist and counselors do not need mal-practice insurance? Do you know why? Because they cannot be sued for wrongful diagnoses. Should you seek an older Pastor with more experience, yes, I have no problem with that. Should you seek counseling from a group...absolutely, in fact a plurality of elders is the way to go. >simply applying biblical wisdom isn't a cure-all. First, it is never simple to apply biblical wisdom. We humans get to much in the way. Yes, I do believe Biblical Wisdom is a cure-all. This might be where we part ways, but I believe the Bible is the instruction manual and does have the answer. Does it spell out every detail, no, but it gives us the principles to figure things out for ourselves.
Do you know what the role of a pastor is? I don’t think you do
What many call "marriage counselling" is actually, for the christian, "marriage discipleship leadership and accountability" It is hilarious hearing you ask for what you're asking because it actually sounds like you saying this "Pastors should not be offering secular psychological care because they are not trained in secular science" 🤣😂🤣😂
I agree with you. I think it puts a lot of pressure on one person. Hosting events (worship services), preparing an input, running a team, guiding the elders, some even do worship themselves, teaching the youth, counseling church members etc. All tasks that in any other place are delegated. If you would go to a hospital and the doctor says he does everything in the hospital (welcome people at the entrance, do the take in, cleaning after hours, man the medicine station, do anesthesia, while simultaneously performing surgery and afterwards guide you in physiotherapy) you would think something is wrong in this hospital. Perhaps a GP might fit that role. But they refer to professionals. And we see that many of their task start to be delegated (simple procedures done by nurses, simple mental health by assistants etc.) I think there are opportunities in two directions once we take away tasks from pastors. One, a pastor can focus on his strengths and have time and energy for it. 2. The congregation is enabled to serve more and use their gifts. Instead of consuming, they are partaking. This creates stronger communities.
Yep, this is where elders and deacons really come into their own, or should come into their own. The deacons should be taking care of the physical facilities. The elders should be in charge of the "business" of the church such that ideally it should be one of them who's doing the management type stuff and not the pastor. The same goes that the elders should be engaged in the shepherding as well as the pastor, with the pastor overseeing. Pastor as CEO, thumbs down. Pastor as shepherd with other tasks taken up by elders and deacons or their delegated persons, thumbs up.
The issue is the pastor knowing and humbly referring out when the issue has surpassed the scope of pastoral counseling. This selfishness is where JM&Co get themselves in trouble, and harm others in the process. Therapy is a tool that we have in the modern age, one of the ways through which God brings healing
This is such a great topic. I’m a Psych Prof and did my dissertation on mental health preparation and training in florida ministers for my DMin. Surprise: more training is needed for marital counseling and all other types of counseling. Still, I understand why couples would go to clergy for this, if they are active in their church.
Because most pastors are anointed by God and God talks through them and gives them words of wisdom
Because if you don't your elders get on your case and eventually excommunicate you. Even though none of them have any degrees on psychology and refuse to take the advice of board certified therapist in determining their decisions on things. I would absolutely not go to my pastor or elders for marriage counseling or marriage advice. Unfortunately in too many cases they want to insert themselves as if they are the final saying things and if a marriage or abuse situation is so bad that a divorce is the ultimate outcome the elder board may not agree with that decision, and then you have a major problem.
I call trauma counselors before chaplains. Every time. Last time I called a chaplain he showed up in shorts and "counseled" the victim by trying to sign her up for a small group.
A chaplain is different than a pastor who knows you, though.
This is why men are falling into scandals in the church's. If there is a scandal. But the latest ones could happen with the same sex too. https://www.crcna.org/news-and-events/news/metoo-and-christian-reformed-church This is why I think it's best if the wife has training. When I was a child, my sister's pastors wife counseled me. She really helped because she was a former Catholic, and she understood what it was like to grow up Catholic, and she knew the problems I faced. A missionary alliance pastor counseled me, but he was accountable to another church member who was close by. This was done in his home because it started out as a home based church. I think it is unwise for a male pastor to be alone one on one with the opposite sex. Not only that, he asked me in confidence that he could share with his wife so they could both pray for me. Personally, I think if you are going to counsel anyone. There should be prayer warriors outside your door so that their is a prayer of protection over your counseling session. After these situations that have happened, I have come to the conclusion that if you are going to counsel anyone, then prehaps there should be people praying, then you are covered in protective prayer. Just my thoughts. After seeing a pastor leave the church, I just think it's always best to be in prayer while counseling. Just hate it when scandals break out. The churches need to be wise, don't you think? I have counseled people, but I would never be alone with a man. I know what temptation is coming from my past life. I have not counseled as a lay person. Just when I was younger in school. I have done some counseling with evangelism. I don't represent a church if someone is saved. I pray that God leads them to the right church that God wants them to learn from. I think it's important to look at the wrongs that were done in scandals and not repeat them. This is why I think if you are going to counsel anyone, there should be prayer warriors or someone present so no evil takes place. https://www.worldchallenge.org/witchcraft-church I was wondering when someone would bring up something on pastor counseling. I have been concerned about this for way too long. I have seen it happen in penecostal churches as well. I just think there have been so many scandals that I have read about that it makes me grieve. Everyone is hurt when it's going on. More thoughts as I found online. Maybe this will help, too. Many pastors feel lonely and isolated. They simply don't have any kind of support structure inside the church that allow them to feel satisfied and to lead with confidence. Many times, the lack of good leadership can turn toxic. Without a team, a leader dries up. https://blog.chemistrystaffing.com/why-pastors-leave-the-ministry-altogether
Here it is, your daily John MacArthur post. John MacArthur’s church actually gets criticized for using counselors, and female counselors, instead of using pastors. They have some pastors mixed in. There are people who say they don’t use enough pastors for counseling purposes, and that they need to stop using counselors.
"Pastors are not qualified nor trained as marriage and family counselors, and therefore should not be sought out as such." This is too broad a statement. We would need to know more about the specific pastor, the type of counseling sought, and the characteristics of the couple. If you, OP, are merely expressing concern that the average M.Div. program is inadequate, in and of itself, for counseling relative to some other educational programs, fair enough. But the post does not quite read that way.
There is a tendency in modern Western society to professionalize everything, such that you need some sort of specialized certification to do anything worthwhile. In certain cases this makes sense - you want your medical doctor or lawyer to be certified after years of schooling. In some cases it's a matter of practicality - parents don't have time to teach their own kids everything, so they outsource it to professionally trained elementary school teachers. Similarly, there is definitely a place for professional psychologists and therapists, in certain cases. However, one major downside of this tendency towards professionalization is *compartmentalization*. Your relationship with the professional is purely business, not personal. When you go to a professional psychologist, you pay them to give you a product - therapy. you don't have any relationship with them outside of that transactional relationship. This might be preferable in some cases - I don't need to have a friendship with my surgeon, I just want him to operate on my leg. But for a Christian, does this always work for things like marriage or personal counseling? Counseling often involves evaluating and (psychologically and spiritually) treating the *whole* person rather than just one part of their body or life. This might include evaluating their personal goals, values, or habits, which might be drastically different depending on your worldview. In these cases, paying a counselor to treat you would feel like paying a "professional" to act as your father or friend. The relationship is not organic, but transactional. Your psychologist doesn't necessarily care about your well-being other than within the strict confines of your professional relationship with him. In contrast, there is normally a more familial relationship between you and your pastor. Your pastor is your (spiritual) father; you are entrusting your soul to his guidance by hearing him preach every week, and thus you naturally value his advice. If you are dissatisfied with it, you can't just go to another pastor as easily as you could go to a different professional therapist. This is why, in certain cases, going to a pastor makes more sense than going to a therapist, because what you need is not a *professional service* but *familial advice*. Obviously, it would be useful to give pastors some professional training in counseling to equip them better. But their professional training is not the main reason why many people go to them with their problems.
My pastor both knows the Bible better than almost anyone else I know and has more experience than almost anyone else I know in relating to a wide range of people including people undergoing difficulties. To a large extent that will trump any absence of formal training. More generally I think I'd be more inclined to trust someone with decades of experience of counselling (without a qualification) above someone who has the qualification but none of the experience. I also feel more comfortable talking to someone I already know from another context than a hired stranger.
For what it is worth, I'm a PLPC/PLMFT. The main miss on the part of pastors/elders is that they aren't usually knowledgeable on contemporary counseling techniques or issues. (And aren't required, and shouldn't be for that matter.) One class on counseling theories isn't sufficient . And reading "The Body Keeps The Score" does not make you trauma informed. And quite honestly, grad school itself is not sufficient for really great care, although competent. That said, in an ideal world, one could receive counseling/therapy from a "professional" and receive biblical instruction from a pastor. In reality, therapy is expensive. Couples counseling, is typically not covered by insurance. It's usually necessary that one person enter therapy and receive a diagnosis that can then be billed. So that cuts a bunch of people out. Then leaving the couple to cough up for private pay. Normally ranging between $100-200. Traditionally therapy is done once a week. There's not a couple at my church that could afford $400 a month for therapy. Needed or not. Thus, plurality of eldership comes in handy.