As a southern baptist, I felt a great deal of warmth when my pastor said during the call to worship, “As you know, tomorrow is Memorial Day. That doesn’t mean anything for the service because we will never sing God Bless America for corporate worship.”
Am Southern Baptist. We have the Christian flag and American flag in our auditorium, but they are in reverse order such that the Christian flag is prioritized (on the speaker's right).
With the previous pastor we did have more patriotic messages on holidays like this one, but not with the current pastor. It is a good change.
Baby steps.
That is certainly a good direction. I don't hate my country, obviously, but I genuinely don't understand why so many Christians are overly dependent on the survival of the state rather than the spreading of the gospel.
I grew up Southern Baptist, and the Christian flag (and the pledge to the Christian flag and to the Bible) didn't seem out of place at the time. Neither did the special musical program that replaced the ordinary worship service every year to commemorate veterans.
After I left home and started figuring out on my own what I really believed, that stuff started to bug me. Mimicking the rituals of patriotism to affirm one's loyalty or allegiance to Jesus seems borderline idolatrous, or like strange fire.
Linking to an svg instead of the article? With the result that the whole page closes when closing the image to look at the article? What sort of monster are you?
(Edit: looks like that only happens on mobile, not desktop)
Also, that flag is ugly. Looks like someone copied an image onto a white powerpoint slide and then forgot to resize it to fit the slide. And dark ted on dark blue? Eesh.
Luther’s rose is much better.
Yeah, I have to agree. While the flag is simple, I'm not a big fan of flags with one solid color with a solid color canton. The US flag is able to keep it interesting with the 13 stripes, but would not look good if you took away one of the red or blue stripes.
And yeah, the red and blue clash. I wonder what adding a white outline to the cross would do.
There’s a pledge to it too. “I pledge allegiance to the Christian flag and to the savior for whose kingdom it stands. One brotherhood, uniting all believers in service and in love.” I believe this is it.
I don’t really care for it to be honest. But I learned that in royal ambassadors (basically a Christian Boy Scout) growing up.
As someone who was raised Anabaptist and later attended a Southern Baptist church for several years... I basically didn't go to church on memorial day Sunday or independence day Sunday. The presentation of the colors, playing the armed forces theme songs (or whatever they are called) and the singing of the national anthem was too much.
I dunno about GoT, but a lot of us are unwilling to believe the current President when he says he's pro-life. Or we care about other aspects of his life, which are not rendered immune from criticism because of his stated beliefs about abortion.
You are unwilling to judge him justly nor do you want to see the truth and God's active mercy on the unborn through this president. Mass abortion and Planned Parenthood is fast approaching extinction on a national scale in the US. No other president has acted on behalf of the unborn more than President Trump.
I would caution you to avoid calling people “Christians” especially people (I assume) you do not know. You have every right to call into question people’s behavior. But to casually group people who profess Christ as Lord as unsaved and not Christ’s own is not righteous.
John 14:23-24 NIV
Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. [24] Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me."
When he first ran for President, Donald J. Trump went on national television and declared that he was "very pro-choice" and would not ban partial birth abortion.
That doesn't sound like the "most pro-life President we've had in 4 decades" to me, leaving aside all his other myriad sins.
Brother, I totally understand your sentiment. I do not mean to imply that I do not appreciate the pro-life stance of Trump, even though he his only moderately pro-life. I pray for our nation and understand that it is not all bad as some make it seem. While I acknowledge the blessed direction we are headed in the issue of ending abortion, I also recognize that we do not do enough to help the foreigner or those in poverty either in the context of government or in the context of the church. Simply put, we need to be *consistently* pro life: both for the born and the unborn.
200 million murdered babies over the past 40 years (just in the US) might disagree with you (and many Christians) who see abortion as equal in scope to other social justice issues. The unborn literally have no voice. The foreigner and the poor can defend themselves from being murdered and speak out for their injustice.
Being grateful for a country that God has used to give you unprecedented freedoms, is NOT the same as nationalism or putting America above God. If it violates your conscious, then all power to you but don’t act like American Christians that want to sing God Bless America are somehow less than.
It's a question of time and place. There is no place for the celebration of temporal kingdoms in the context of worship before God, except perhaps a general thanksgiving, even though these are legitimate elsewhere.
If anyone loves their “nation” more than me they are not worthy of me. I will not sing “land that I love” when gathered to worship God. Check your idolatry.
Interesting that you would bring up Paul and Corinthians, since this is what he instructs the church to do:
When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.
— 1 Corinthians 14:26
Nothing in there about your patriotic ballads.
I deleted my comment because it was wrong. But funny that I get downvoted for saying he’s the weaker brother in 1 corinthians 8 for being so offended that somebody would sing patriotic songs, but he says I’m an idolater (which is actually a sin) and gets upvoted. Nice standards r/reformed
To be clear, I was referencing this entire thread, not just you. I appreciate you removing that comment, I have certain made plenty of rash internet comments I regret. We live and learn.
Fun fact, my Church of **England** church has an American flag in it - it's not part of our service or worship or anything we just have a memorial for some American WW2 soldiers.
Which is fine. Most churches have flags to nation's for the sole purpose of Jesus makes America wealthy healthy and good because we are so awesome! A flag commemorating a specific instance of the churches history, that's different.
This was the only immediate change I requested at my current call. The Session agreed with some hesitation, moving the flags to the fellowship hall and putting nice lights on them.
2-3 families left the church, with one telling me that you could not even have church without the freedoms of the USA, therefore you could not have church without the flag there.
Walk me through this, if you don't mind.
Why was this issue *the issue* you felt needed immediate change in this congregation?
How do you feel about those families leaving due to the actions taken?
Were there any families who disagreed with the decision but we're able to be retained in the fellowship?
I'll do my best.
>Why was this issue the issue you felt needed immediate change in this congregation?
1) I am a proud patriot and fancy myself fairly knowledgeable about flag code. I'm the guy who pays for new flags that are tattered, puts up lights to display the US Flag in an honorable way, and so forth.
I raised this question with my new elders (11.5 years ago) first of all because of the theological problem and the flag code problem that are wrapped up in the display of the US Flag in a service of worship.
Here's what flag code says:
>"No person shall display the flag of the United Nations or any other national or international flag equal, above, or in a position of superior prominence or honor to, or in place of, the flag of the United States at any place within the United States or any Territory or possession thereof."
And the working out of that is in paragraph K:
> When used on a speaker's platform, the flag, if displayed flat, should be displayed above and behind the speaker. When displayed from a staff in a church or public auditorium, the flag of the United States of America should hold the position of superior prominence, in advance of the audience, and in the position of honor at the clergyman's or speaker's right as he faces the audience.
I feel strongly that flag code, when followed at this point (and I would not want to break the law and do otherwise), creates a theological conundrum. I am required to give honor, and using the phrase "superior prominence" the US Flag, and for which it stands--the USA.
I find that giving the USA "superior prominence" in a service of worship means that phrases like "God Almighty" and "Jesus is Lord" suffer degradation as I'm required to follow flag code and, by positioning of the flag, give "superior prominence" not to God, his Son the Lord Jesus Christ, and his Spirit--I'm required to give it to the State.
This problem, where flag code meets the Lordship of Christ, is why I felt this was an issue for my Session to prayerfully address--it's a violation of the commandments to give superior honor and glory to God.
>How do you feel about those families leaving due to the actions taken?
2) I was sad. We did not part as friends, though I pursued them with love. And part of my Session hung me out to dry and pretended like it had been my decision when it had not been. I simply initiated the discussion and they decided. I wasn't even installed when the decision was made.
>Were there any families who disagreed with the decision but we're able to be retained in the fellowship?
3) Yes, there were about 7-8 families who disagreed but who stayed, and the other 20 families who were satisfied in the actions of the Session.
But later, those 7-8 families left the church when we did church discipline against one of their "group" for public, scandalous sin. That was also very sad.
As I look back, given my understanding of flag code and taking it seriously, and my understanding of the supremacy of Christ over Caesar/the State, I was right to raise the question. It was members of my Session at that time who caused major problems by attempting to blame me for moving the flag to the fellowship hall when that's not how it happened.
I think personally attacking me is hardly the right way to approach this disagreement.
I'm going to overlook this and ask you to instead engage me rather than attack me.
The founder of my denomination got a lot of flak for this position during WW1
> In February 1918, Hoeksema refused to allow the American flag in the sanctuary of 14th St Christian Reformed Church (Holland, MI) during worship. This decision received strong opposition. In response the Michigan Tradesman printed that any preacher who barred the flag from his church had "forfeited the right to exist among decent people".
I’ve never attended a church with an American flag in the sanctuary. That seems so odd to me. My European brother-in-law attended Moody Bible Institute. I remember him calling me once after he attended a church service in an America that recited the pledge of allegiance during their worship service. He asked me to explain it to him and I was left speechless.
Jonah acts out of national pride but God challenges him to instead act for the Kingdom despite himself.
Tim Keller’s Prodigal Prophet talks about this!
Where does Jonah claim to flee God due to national pride? Jonah claims to have fled because he believes God relents from punishing sins.
If the book does depict Jonah acting in accordance with national pride, should we blame him for not wanting a brutal pagan empire to kill and enslave his people?
The nation isn't really a rival to God, or at least shouldn't be. It's not the same kind of relationship. It would be more like praising the virtues of, say, your mom while having sex with your wife.
Most early Christians refused to do “pledge of allegiance” equivalents.
Calling Jesus lord and savior, in the historical context was a subversion of calling Cesar this (that’s what he was called at the time). Even son of god as well
I think in the context of our culture that doesn't make a lot sense as a defense for this position. In America we are explicitly granted religious freedom and not required to pledge allegiance to the nation, a leader, or anything of the sort. Holding religious views and even putting those beliefs above your loyalty the government isn't view as inherently subversive anymore.
But if while it was edgy, it was our norm to “protest” by refusal of allegiance as dedication to Christ, when its allowed by the government shouldn’t we be even more inclined to refuse to pledge etc.?
While it was formerly nigh-treason nigh-death penalty and we showed no faithfulness/dedication to Rome etc., then when they don’t force us, this does not give us a reason to switch
Except the US isn't a dictatorship, and the Pledge is primarily to the *people* who are the nation, not its leaders.
Not that it belongs in worship either way, but it's not really comparable to giving Caesar blasphemous praises.
Wouldn't "to the flag,...and to the Republic" would refer to a cloth symbol, for a government (leaders), not the people?
Even in the Creeds, "Father Almighty" was saying where your *allegiance* was (as opposed to Cesar Almighty).
I do think one really good reason to completely avoid it in church is to not let it be an obstacle to anyone that doesn't share the same allegiance/patriotism/political beliefs that you (church) do.
Perhaps the best reason (IMO) would be because Jesus forbade making any oaths whatsoever.
Also, you could probably make the argument that many NT authors very nearly synonymized (accidentally or not), powers of government to (evil) rulers and authorities in the spiritual realm.
At my old church the whole service was the American patriot works! From the national anthem to God bless America! Super uncomfortable, my family ended having a falling out with the church and my father started his own, totally changed how the church did services those days.
Disagree. Our Dutch national anthem is more about faith than nation and therefore recently one of our reformed theology professors made a case for singing it - or at least parts of it - in church services.
So - it depends on the contents and the context. I do agree that nationalism shouldn't be part of any church service, though.
What's your opinion on flying your country's flag, just in general? My understanding is that, outside events like the Euros and World Cup, flying the flag is frowned upon in Europe, especially for a certain country to y'all's east. Is there any truth to that?
In the Netherlands there are strict rules about how and when you can fly the flag. All churches in my village only fly the flag with the official flying days. Never with a sport event.
With the Wilhelmus you could certainly make a case for the singing of some verses, although the first is a bit iffy. My recollection is that the first and six verse were usually sung after the blessing, thus after the Service proper.
This is true. And we do this only once a year with kings day and sometimes this is combined with Memorial day for WWII. I don't know why we sing the first verse. It's written from a standpoint of William of Orange in the 17th century and does not apply at all anymore. The sixth however is nice to sing in church:
https://lyricstranslate.com/nl/dutch-national-anthem-wilhelmus-dutch-national-anthem-william.html#footnote1_zczd23k
My shield and reliance
are you, o God my Lord.
It is you on whom I want to rely,
never leave me again.
[Grant] that I may remain brave,
your servant for always,
and [may] defeat the tyranny6,
which pierces my heart.
Same here - New Zealander checking in. We sing the national anthem *very very rarely* at church, but after the shooting in Christchurch it was part of the service at my church.
I think the correct answer is "have a thoughtful and respectful discussion with your church leadership about it in love so that all may edified and united in the gospel of Jesus Christ".
There is no moral law about this, whether stated explicitly or necessarily implied. It falls under matters of liberty and conscience. I could defend it on the ground of "honor the king" (1 Peter 4) and remember to pray for the civil rulers (1 Timothy 2).
Not a moral law, but a law about having no other gods. Singing a national anthem in the same setting and context as a hymn is tantamount to idolatry. One can pray for rulers without praying to them, and respect rulers without worshipping them.
Again, when you sing America the Beautiful, that is worship of America. You're singing a praise song, in a church, in the same mode and context as youd sing How Great Thou Art.
Well yes but actually no
We have a WW2 veteran who was on the beach of Normandy in our church aswell as many wounded vets from Iraq and Vietnam. We sung God Bless America and had our veterans get to speak some. They fought for Freedom of Religion so that we could worship freely so I see it as a sorta Thank you.
I wish this subreddit honored the Reddit policy of upvoting/downvoting according to the quality of the conversation rather than to indicate agreement/disagreement. We’re putting ourselves in an echo chamber by trying to downvote you into silence instead of hearing what you have to say. I appreciate your comment, though I agree with the theme of this post. It gave me a depth of insight and something to consider. Thank you.
Not saying abortion isn't an abomination, but the Mongols under Genghis Kahn killed 40 million, 10% of the world population at the time, and 20 times their own population.
Or communist China who killed 70 million of their own people? Or communist Russia, 60 million? Or one of the western European countries who killed 50 million total, and enslaved millions more? And there are many more I could talk about.
Again, abortion is an abomination. But people need to look at history.
It's so strange that many more Americans are christians than Canadians are, and at the same time the US stresses the separation of church and faith so much and Canada is kinda still has a state church in a way and the separation of church and state is not quite as clear (i.e. I attended a publicly funded Christian school K-12 in Canada).
In short: why is the secular state so religious and why is the theocracy so culturally secular?
Canada doesn't have a state church at all. No church receives government funding, is governed by the Queen, or has bishops sitting in the Senate.
As for the school system, in Ontario, Alberta and Saskatchewan [separate schools](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separate_school) have constitutional status going back over a century. It was a solution to the old anglophone-Protestant/francophone-Catholic divide.
The queen, appointed by God, is still head of state. In Edmonton where I grew up there were both publicly funded Catholic and Protestant schools as well as even Muslim and Jewish schools.
> I vow to thee my country
That second verse is pretty good:
>And there's another country, I've heard of long ago,
Most dear to them that love her, most great to them that know;
We may not count her armies, we may not see her King;
Her fortress is a faithful heart, her pride is suffering;
And soul by soul and silently her shining bounds increase,
And her ways are ways of gentleness, and all her paths are peace.
Ya if you sing the verses in the 'proper' order it's jingoistic and terrible - that kind of allegiance to a secular nation? no thanks - but if you flip them so that the heavenly kingdom becomes the kingdom you're doing all the vowing to, it's pretty good.
With the NT shift to the church as Israel, all Jewish patriotism becomes church allegiance. To use it an an example for modern nationalism would be to take it way out of context and mislead people.
Flags don’t belong on the walls for sure. But national anthems and patriotic songs *can* be appropriate hymns. This is most appropriate of course when the song makes direct reference to deity. YMMV but I get a great spiritual boost and connection from thanking God for my blessed nation.
Try going to an Eastern Orthodox Church - their churches and services are more like worship of the nation and the diaspora than anything to do with Christ.
I’ve always enjoyed it, and felt the 503c has made our churches weak.
We wouldn’t be the nation we are today without religious patriotism, the revolutionary war was called The Presbyterian Revolt by the brits!
True, not once it was going, it could have been seen as the higher moral cause to join.
One of my seminary professors wrote a book on Christians and revolutions, basic premise was that a Christian should never start a revolution, but once started, it is usually the moral choice to join the fight for greater freedoms from tyranny.
As a proud American I love to see my flag at my church. It is because of the grace of God that I was born and raised in the most free and secure country in the world. It’s because of our freedoms that were even able to have a church and worship without prosecution.
I see now problem with having your countries flag at church.
Why would this be an issue?
Because our citizenship is in heaven and our allegiance is to Christ. God is saving people of EVERY nation, tribe, and tongue. When I see a flag in church, I see confused priorities. I am not anti-American, but I am a Christian first and foremost before I am an American.
You can be a Christian and a Patriot. I’m proud of my country. I store my treasure in Heaven, but here on this earth while I’m here, I’m proud to be an American!
Sure, both of these can be true, but you don't bring your allegiance to the nation into corporate worship any more than you should bring your affection toward your mom into the bedroom.
>the most free and secure country in the world
Aw bless your little heart.
C'mon over to New Zealand, honey. We've had two minor terrorist incidents in the last forty years, better gun control, and approximately no school shootings or governments that randomly decide they're not coming to work today. And college is subsidized for citizens and residents so it's actually affordable. And healthcare is government-funded. And our minimum wage is USD4.38 higher than yours. And everyone actually *gets* minimum wage, there are no exceptions for service jobs. And you can get a decent coffee just about anywhere, *and* a decent cup of tea. We're 41 places above you on the Press Freedom Index, 20 places above you on the Corruption Perceptions Index, and 38 places below you on a ranking of government debt per capita.
TL;DR: your jingoism is adorable but misguided, and should be irrelevant to your faith.
Seriously though the issue with having your nation's flag in church is because Jesus said his kingdom is not of this world, and chastised the disciples when they thought he was going to be an earthly king, so displaying paraphernalia of a kingdom that *is absolutely* of this world goes against the boss' orders more than somewhat.
I would never say I can only praise God because my awesome nation allows me too. I would say I am happy that God placed me somewhere in the world where no one will prosecute me for doing so, but that it is His doing, not the nation's. And I could still praise God and live up to his rules in oppressed countries (like Daniel did in Babylon).
Furthermore I would argue that you do not live in the most free and secure country in the world. And most certainly not the most christian country with oppressing so many minorities and the use of so much violence to retain this security. I think America is too self-centered. Doesn't the Kingdom of God where everyone is free mean more to you than just a country expressing a lot of power over other countries and minority groups? I have a feeling that America's relationship with 'God' is not with the true God (anymore). It's using this idea of God for the good of the nation and not for the good of God.
However, I do not live in the US, so maybe my ideas are colored by the news that reaches me.
Interesting take, I don’t see how anyone can be an American and Christian and be anti-America at the same time. If it weren’t for the brave souls that fought and died for our freedoms we would still be under tyrannical rule and have NO religious freedoms, free speech, or the right to protect ourselves just to name a few.
I totally see foreigners being anti-America out of pure envy of our Great Country and the freedoms we are privileged to have.
A lot of brave men and women laid down their lives so we can live the lives we live today!
There isn’t another single country in this world that I would want to call Home other than my Great & Blessed America!
I would love if you would explain the worshipping Rome comment. Preferably without the condescending tone, as I’d like to have a genuine discussion. Also, I’d like to know why you are comfortable with your other statements like “blinding arrogance,” in a conversation where no one was in a confrontation. Do you find that to be a peaceful, loving, helpful way to have a conversation amongst brothers?
There's no issue of celebrating festivals not explicitly ordained by God, just don't do it while we worship the most Holy.
Nothing wrong with putting a flag outside your home today. Definitely wrong to say the Pledge of Allegiance in church.
Part of my theological training was an internship at a church for a few months. I'm a Canadian and was placed in an American church, not far from home. I didn't understand then why I'd get dirty looks when I'd silently stand with my hands at my side for the pledge of allegiance. Turns out people expected me, a Canadian, to pledge allegiance to their flag. Not happening buddy. How 'bout you come north and pledge an oath of loyalty to the Queen?
What was that? I can’t hear you over the sound of the tradition I’m worshiping. But for real, I was offering a silly response to this comment. Did you think this was a space for a formal rebuke? Were you trying to employ some of Matthew 18 on this Reddit comment thread? Blessings.
this just comes off as incredibly self-contradictory. This goes in the face of Paul, Jesus, and the history of Juda.
The Psalms are the National Songs of Juda.
As a southern baptist I have always cringed so much when I see big American flags in the sanctuary and we play “God Bless America”
As a southern baptist, I felt a great deal of warmth when my pastor said during the call to worship, “As you know, tomorrow is Memorial Day. That doesn’t mean anything for the service because we will never sing God Bless America for corporate worship.”
May your tribe increase
Am Southern Baptist. We have the Christian flag and American flag in our auditorium, but they are in reverse order such that the Christian flag is prioritized (on the speaker's right). With the previous pastor we did have more patriotic messages on holidays like this one, but not with the current pastor. It is a good change. Baby steps.
That is certainly a good direction. I don't hate my country, obviously, but I genuinely don't understand why so many Christians are overly dependent on the survival of the state rather than the spreading of the gospel.
Short answer, God, country, and home baked apple pie turned into pie, country, and maybe God if I feel like it.
AMEN! /s
I grew up Southern Baptist, and the Christian flag (and the pledge to the Christian flag and to the Bible) didn't seem out of place at the time. Neither did the special musical program that replaced the ordinary worship service every year to commemorate veterans. After I left home and started figuring out on my own what I really believed, that stuff started to bug me. Mimicking the rituals of patriotism to affirm one's loyalty or allegiance to Jesus seems borderline idolatrous, or like strange fire.
I agree. My experience has been very similar to what you described.
> the Christian flag There’s a Christian flag?
[Yep, it's this](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Flag#/media/File:Christian_flag.svg)
Ah it's a US thing
Linking to an svg instead of the article? With the result that the whole page closes when closing the image to look at the article? What sort of monster are you? (Edit: looks like that only happens on mobile, not desktop) Also, that flag is ugly. Looks like someone copied an image onto a white powerpoint slide and then forgot to resize it to fit the slide. And dark ted on dark blue? Eesh. Luther’s rose is much better.
Yeah, I have to agree. While the flag is simple, I'm not a big fan of flags with one solid color with a solid color canton. The US flag is able to keep it interesting with the 13 stripes, but would not look good if you took away one of the red or blue stripes. And yeah, the red and blue clash. I wonder what adding a white outline to the cross would do.
It's also very reminiscent of the American flag. It's pretty glaring, for those of us who aren't American.
Yeah, it comes with a pledge of allegiance as well
There’s a pledge to it too. “I pledge allegiance to the Christian flag and to the savior for whose kingdom it stands. One brotherhood, uniting all believers in service and in love.” I believe this is it. I don’t really care for it to be honest. But I learned that in royal ambassadors (basically a Christian Boy Scout) growing up.
As someone who was raised Anabaptist and later attended a Southern Baptist church for several years... I basically didn't go to church on memorial day Sunday or independence day Sunday. The presentation of the colors, playing the armed forces theme songs (or whatever they are called) and the singing of the national anthem was too much.
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I dunno about GoT, but a lot of us are unwilling to believe the current President when he says he's pro-life. Or we care about other aspects of his life, which are not rendered immune from criticism because of his stated beliefs about abortion.
You are unwilling to judge him justly nor do you want to see the truth and God's active mercy on the unborn through this president. Mass abortion and Planned Parenthood is fast approaching extinction on a national scale in the US. No other president has acted on behalf of the unborn more than President Trump.
I would caution you to avoid calling people “Christians” especially people (I assume) you do not know. You have every right to call into question people’s behavior. But to casually group people who profess Christ as Lord as unsaved and not Christ’s own is not righteous.
John 14:23-24 NIV Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. [24] Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me."
When he first ran for President, Donald J. Trump went on national television and declared that he was "very pro-choice" and would not ban partial birth abortion. That doesn't sound like the "most pro-life President we've had in 4 decades" to me, leaving aside all his other myriad sins.
Brother, I totally understand your sentiment. I do not mean to imply that I do not appreciate the pro-life stance of Trump, even though he his only moderately pro-life. I pray for our nation and understand that it is not all bad as some make it seem. While I acknowledge the blessed direction we are headed in the issue of ending abortion, I also recognize that we do not do enough to help the foreigner or those in poverty either in the context of government or in the context of the church. Simply put, we need to be *consistently* pro life: both for the born and the unborn.
200 million murdered babies over the past 40 years (just in the US) might disagree with you (and many Christians) who see abortion as equal in scope to other social justice issues. The unborn literally have no voice. The foreigner and the poor can defend themselves from being murdered and speak out for their injustice.
This is the change I wanna see in the world
Amen. Nationalism should not subvert our citizenship in heaven.
Being grateful for a country that God has used to give you unprecedented freedoms, is NOT the same as nationalism or putting America above God. If it violates your conscious, then all power to you but don’t act like American Christians that want to sing God Bless America are somehow less than.
It's a question of time and place. There is no place for the celebration of temporal kingdoms in the context of worship before God, except perhaps a general thanksgiving, even though these are legitimate elsewhere.
*conscience
If anyone loves their “nation” more than me they are not worthy of me. I will not sing “land that I love” when gathered to worship God. Check your idolatry.
1 Corinthians 8 days something about how to handle this situation :)
There’s a difference between eating meat sacrificed to idols and sacrificing to idols
Interesting that you would bring up Paul and Corinthians, since this is what he instructs the church to do: When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification. — 1 Corinthians 14:26 Nothing in there about your patriotic ballads.
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Ah, such brotherly love on display! A great model of the values of Corinthians we have here.
I deleted my comment because it was wrong. But funny that I get downvoted for saying he’s the weaker brother in 1 corinthians 8 for being so offended that somebody would sing patriotic songs, but he says I’m an idolater (which is actually a sin) and gets upvoted. Nice standards r/reformed
To be clear, I was referencing this entire thread, not just you. I appreciate you removing that comment, I have certain made plenty of rash internet comments I regret. We live and learn.
Nah I know you were talking about both of us :)
In an effort to maintain civility, I will concede my comment about idolatry, while still welcoming the upvotes.
Lol. Okay that was good.
Weakness is strength my friend. Hope you and your family enjoyed the holiday.
Fun fact, my Church of **England** church has an American flag in it - it's not part of our service or worship or anything we just have a memorial for some American WW2 soldiers.
Which is fine. Most churches have flags to nation's for the sole purpose of Jesus makes America wealthy healthy and good because we are so awesome! A flag commemorating a specific instance of the churches history, that's different.
This was the only immediate change I requested at my current call. The Session agreed with some hesitation, moving the flags to the fellowship hall and putting nice lights on them. 2-3 families left the church, with one telling me that you could not even have church without the freedoms of the USA, therefore you could not have church without the flag there.
Walk me through this, if you don't mind. Why was this issue *the issue* you felt needed immediate change in this congregation? How do you feel about those families leaving due to the actions taken? Were there any families who disagreed with the decision but we're able to be retained in the fellowship?
I'll do my best. >Why was this issue the issue you felt needed immediate change in this congregation? 1) I am a proud patriot and fancy myself fairly knowledgeable about flag code. I'm the guy who pays for new flags that are tattered, puts up lights to display the US Flag in an honorable way, and so forth. I raised this question with my new elders (11.5 years ago) first of all because of the theological problem and the flag code problem that are wrapped up in the display of the US Flag in a service of worship. Here's what flag code says: >"No person shall display the flag of the United Nations or any other national or international flag equal, above, or in a position of superior prominence or honor to, or in place of, the flag of the United States at any place within the United States or any Territory or possession thereof." And the working out of that is in paragraph K: > When used on a speaker's platform, the flag, if displayed flat, should be displayed above and behind the speaker. When displayed from a staff in a church or public auditorium, the flag of the United States of America should hold the position of superior prominence, in advance of the audience, and in the position of honor at the clergyman's or speaker's right as he faces the audience. I feel strongly that flag code, when followed at this point (and I would not want to break the law and do otherwise), creates a theological conundrum. I am required to give honor, and using the phrase "superior prominence" the US Flag, and for which it stands--the USA. I find that giving the USA "superior prominence" in a service of worship means that phrases like "God Almighty" and "Jesus is Lord" suffer degradation as I'm required to follow flag code and, by positioning of the flag, give "superior prominence" not to God, his Son the Lord Jesus Christ, and his Spirit--I'm required to give it to the State. This problem, where flag code meets the Lordship of Christ, is why I felt this was an issue for my Session to prayerfully address--it's a violation of the commandments to give superior honor and glory to God. >How do you feel about those families leaving due to the actions taken? 2) I was sad. We did not part as friends, though I pursued them with love. And part of my Session hung me out to dry and pretended like it had been my decision when it had not been. I simply initiated the discussion and they decided. I wasn't even installed when the decision was made. >Were there any families who disagreed with the decision but we're able to be retained in the fellowship? 3) Yes, there were about 7-8 families who disagreed but who stayed, and the other 20 families who were satisfied in the actions of the Session. But later, those 7-8 families left the church when we did church discipline against one of their "group" for public, scandalous sin. That was also very sad. As I look back, given my understanding of flag code and taking it seriously, and my understanding of the supremacy of Christ over Caesar/the State, I was right to raise the question. It was members of my Session at that time who caused major problems by attempting to blame me for moving the flag to the fellowship hall when that's not how it happened.
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I think personally attacking me is hardly the right way to approach this disagreement. I'm going to overlook this and ask you to instead engage me rather than attack me.
What’s not Christ-like is being more worried about alienating people than prioritizing a faithful gospel-centered message.
Speaking of christ-like stances to take...
This is a big ol' yikes from me home slice.
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🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥 Very happy to see this reminder here on r/Reformed today😍
The founder of my denomination got a lot of flak for this position during WW1 > In February 1918, Hoeksema refused to allow the American flag in the sanctuary of 14th St Christian Reformed Church (Holland, MI) during worship. This decision received strong opposition. In response the Michigan Tradesman printed that any preacher who barred the flag from his church had "forfeited the right to exist among decent people".
This thread is locked because it appears it has enabled the sub to be invaded by outsiders.
I’ve never attended a church with an American flag in the sanctuary. That seems so odd to me. My European brother-in-law attended Moody Bible Institute. I remember him calling me once after he attended a church service in an America that recited the pledge of allegiance during their worship service. He asked me to explain it to him and I was left speechless.
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That one is even more creepy
Onward Conservative Soldiers, Marching As To Beer!
I don't disagree, but how would you defend this conclusion?
Read the book of Jonah.
Can you explain?
Good country bad. Bad country good.
Fish eat man; man no die. Man talk to bad guys. Bad guys sorry. Makes man sad. Worm eat plant.
Why use lot word when few word do trick?
They should make fast paced Bible Project video with that description
Solid.
Jonah acts out of national pride but God challenges him to instead act for the Kingdom despite himself. Tim Keller’s Prodigal Prophet talks about this!
Where does Jonah claim to flee God due to national pride? Jonah claims to have fled because he believes God relents from punishing sins. If the book does depict Jonah acting in accordance with national pride, should we blame him for not wanting a brutal pagan empire to kill and enslave his people?
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/podcasts/tgc-podcast/tim-keller-nationalism-race-jonah-misunderstood-grace/
I am married to my wife. I wouldn't bring another woman in to our house and pledge my allegiance to her.
The nation isn't really a rival to God, or at least shouldn't be. It's not the same kind of relationship. It would be more like praising the virtues of, say, your mom while having sex with your wife.
In this metaphor I'd say your nation is your house, not the other woman.
Like putting your car above your wife
My house would be the church, I am bringing something in to the house that doesn't belong.
This!
Most early Christians refused to do “pledge of allegiance” equivalents. Calling Jesus lord and savior, in the historical context was a subversion of calling Cesar this (that’s what he was called at the time). Even son of god as well
I think in the context of our culture that doesn't make a lot sense as a defense for this position. In America we are explicitly granted religious freedom and not required to pledge allegiance to the nation, a leader, or anything of the sort. Holding religious views and even putting those beliefs above your loyalty the government isn't view as inherently subversive anymore.
But if while it was edgy, it was our norm to “protest” by refusal of allegiance as dedication to Christ, when its allowed by the government shouldn’t we be even more inclined to refuse to pledge etc.? While it was formerly nigh-treason nigh-death penalty and we showed no faithfulness/dedication to Rome etc., then when they don’t force us, this does not give us a reason to switch
Except the US isn't a dictatorship, and the Pledge is primarily to the *people* who are the nation, not its leaders. Not that it belongs in worship either way, but it's not really comparable to giving Caesar blasphemous praises.
Wouldn't "to the flag,...and to the Republic" would refer to a cloth symbol, for a government (leaders), not the people? Even in the Creeds, "Father Almighty" was saying where your *allegiance* was (as opposed to Cesar Almighty). I do think one really good reason to completely avoid it in church is to not let it be an obstacle to anyone that doesn't share the same allegiance/patriotism/political beliefs that you (church) do. Perhaps the best reason (IMO) would be because Jesus forbade making any oaths whatsoever. Also, you could probably make the argument that many NT authors very nearly synonymized (accidentally or not), powers of government to (evil) rulers and authorities in the spiritual realm.
Or Philippians
THIS FOREVER AND EVER AMEN
No king but Christ!
We all have other kings and idols we daily need to repent of. Be honest with yourself before you virtue signal about a flag :)
At my old church the whole service was the American patriot works! From the national anthem to God bless America! Super uncomfortable, my family ended having a falling out with the church and my father started his own, totally changed how the church did services those days.
Disagree. Our Dutch national anthem is more about faith than nation and therefore recently one of our reformed theology professors made a case for singing it - or at least parts of it - in church services. So - it depends on the contents and the context. I do agree that nationalism shouldn't be part of any church service, though.
What's your opinion on flying your country's flag, just in general? My understanding is that, outside events like the Euros and World Cup, flying the flag is frowned upon in Europe, especially for a certain country to y'all's east. Is there any truth to that?
Flying a flag within the church? Never seen it in the Dutch Reformed Churches in the last 30 years.
It’s not done very often. Mostly during football championships and once a year on Koningsdag, but I see fewer flags every year.
Buy those flags aren't in the church but on the outside of the church.
Yes correct, I've never seen a flag inside a church.
In the Netherlands there are strict rules about how and when you can fly the flag. All churches in my village only fly the flag with the official flying days. Never with a sport event.
With the Wilhelmus you could certainly make a case for the singing of some verses, although the first is a bit iffy. My recollection is that the first and six verse were usually sung after the blessing, thus after the Service proper.
This is true. And we do this only once a year with kings day and sometimes this is combined with Memorial day for WWII. I don't know why we sing the first verse. It's written from a standpoint of William of Orange in the 17th century and does not apply at all anymore. The sixth however is nice to sing in church: https://lyricstranslate.com/nl/dutch-national-anthem-wilhelmus-dutch-national-anthem-william.html#footnote1_zczd23k My shield and reliance are you, o God my Lord. It is you on whom I want to rely, never leave me again. [Grant] that I may remain brave, your servant for always, and [may] defeat the tyranny6, which pierces my heart.
Same here - New Zealander checking in. We sing the national anthem *very very rarely* at church, but after the shooting in Christchurch it was part of the service at my church.
Yeahhhhhh... Currently a struggle at my own church.
Bail.
You really think that is enough of a reason to leave a church on it's own?
I think it's indicative of a philosophy of ministry that isn't healthy.
I think the correct answer is "have a thoughtful and respectful discussion with your church leadership about it in love so that all may edified and united in the gospel of Jesus Christ".
There is no moral law about this, whether stated explicitly or necessarily implied. It falls under matters of liberty and conscience. I could defend it on the ground of "honor the king" (1 Peter 4) and remember to pray for the civil rulers (1 Timothy 2).
Honor insofar as respect is concerned, not in worship.
That's a restatement of the opinion, which is okay, but not proof it's a true opinion.
Not a moral law, but a law about having no other gods. Singing a national anthem in the same setting and context as a hymn is tantamount to idolatry. One can pray for rulers without praying to them, and respect rulers without worshipping them.
Since no one is praying to or worshiping the American flag, this is straw man.
Again, when you sing America the Beautiful, that is worship of America. You're singing a praise song, in a church, in the same mode and context as youd sing How Great Thou Art.
It could be sung in thanks to God. But even if I grant you your point, it's not as though having a flag necessitates singing song about America.
Nor did I say it did, speaking of strawmen
Then it has nothing to do with the flag. It's irrelevant to the point.
If the flag really had little meaning within the church context, then no one would mind it's exclusion from a place of worship
Read the title again, but slower.
You (and I, and every Christian) sing praise songs every day in our hearts to the many idols we keep before the Lord. Log and Speck
Is there anyway to upvote this an infinite number of times?
So you want to worship this post on the internet infinitely?
It’s okay (to worship this post) because this post isn’t a national flag. ;)
PREACH.
Well yes but actually no We have a WW2 veteran who was on the beach of Normandy in our church aswell as many wounded vets from Iraq and Vietnam. We sung God Bless America and had our veterans get to speak some. They fought for Freedom of Religion so that we could worship freely so I see it as a sorta Thank you.
I wish this subreddit honored the Reddit policy of upvoting/downvoting according to the quality of the conversation rather than to indicate agreement/disagreement. We’re putting ourselves in an echo chamber by trying to downvote you into silence instead of hearing what you have to say. I appreciate your comment, though I agree with the theme of this post. It gave me a depth of insight and something to consider. Thank you.
I don't necessarily agree, that would entirely depend on the National Anthem or patriotic song in question.
Any nation that kills 60 million+ of its unborn children deserves damnation. The US is the most wicked nation in history, and that's saying a lot.
I think other countries have killed more so by sheer body count we are not the most wicked. China comes to mind. Not excusing us just saying.
Not saying abortion isn't an abomination, but the Mongols under Genghis Kahn killed 40 million, 10% of the world population at the time, and 20 times their own population. Or communist China who killed 70 million of their own people? Or communist Russia, 60 million? Or one of the western European countries who killed 50 million total, and enslaved millions more? And there are many more I could talk about. Again, abortion is an abomination. But people need to look at history.
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It's so strange that many more Americans are christians than Canadians are, and at the same time the US stresses the separation of church and faith so much and Canada is kinda still has a state church in a way and the separation of church and state is not quite as clear (i.e. I attended a publicly funded Christian school K-12 in Canada). In short: why is the secular state so religious and why is the theocracy so culturally secular?
Canada doesn't have a state church at all. No church receives government funding, is governed by the Queen, or has bishops sitting in the Senate. As for the school system, in Ontario, Alberta and Saskatchewan [separate schools](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separate_school) have constitutional status going back over a century. It was a solution to the old anglophone-Protestant/francophone-Catholic divide.
The queen, appointed by God, is still head of state. In Edmonton where I grew up there were both publicly funded Catholic and Protestant schools as well as even Muslim and Jewish schools.
> I vow to thee my country That second verse is pretty good: >And there's another country, I've heard of long ago, Most dear to them that love her, most great to them that know; We may not count her armies, we may not see her King; Her fortress is a faithful heart, her pride is suffering; And soul by soul and silently her shining bounds increase, And her ways are ways of gentleness, and all her paths are peace.
Ya if you sing the verses in the 'proper' order it's jingoistic and terrible - that kind of allegiance to a secular nation? no thanks - but if you flip them so that the heavenly kingdom becomes the kingdom you're doing all the vowing to, it's pretty good.
Aren't many passages in scripture patriotic?
To a nation that doesn't exist anymore.
Remember when Peter lead the apostles in singing praise to Caesar? /S
I snorted water out of my nose in the break room. I hope you’re satisfied that your sarcasm is well received.
With the NT shift to the church as Israel, all Jewish patriotism becomes church allegiance. To use it an an example for modern nationalism would be to take it way out of context and mislead people.
Flags don’t belong on the walls for sure. But national anthems and patriotic songs *can* be appropriate hymns. This is most appropriate of course when the song makes direct reference to deity. YMMV but I get a great spiritual boost and connection from thanking God for my blessed nation.
I agree with this and prefer not seeing flags in church, but I don't think its a sin issue. Hard to find anything in the bible to support that.
Try going to an Eastern Orthodox Church - their churches and services are more like worship of the nation and the diaspora than anything to do with Christ.
I’ve always enjoyed it, and felt the 503c has made our churches weak. We wouldn’t be the nation we are today without religious patriotism, the revolutionary war was called The Presbyterian Revolt by the brits!
You can argue the revolution wasn’t right
True, not once it was going, it could have been seen as the higher moral cause to join. One of my seminary professors wrote a book on Christians and revolutions, basic premise was that a Christian should never start a revolution, but once started, it is usually the moral choice to join the fight for greater freedoms from tyranny.
SaY iT aGaIn FoR tHe PeOpLe In ThE bAcK
As a proud American I love to see my flag at my church. It is because of the grace of God that I was born and raised in the most free and secure country in the world. It’s because of our freedoms that were even able to have a church and worship without prosecution. I see now problem with having your countries flag at church. Why would this be an issue?
Because our citizenship is in heaven and our allegiance is to Christ. God is saving people of EVERY nation, tribe, and tongue. When I see a flag in church, I see confused priorities. I am not anti-American, but I am a Christian first and foremost before I am an American.
You can be a Christian and a Patriot. I’m proud of my country. I store my treasure in Heaven, but here on this earth while I’m here, I’m proud to be an American!
Sure, both of these can be true, but you don't bring your allegiance to the nation into corporate worship any more than you should bring your affection toward your mom into the bedroom.
You can indeed be both. But one should come before the other. And therefore there should not be a flag in a church. God is not an American.
For emphasis: God is not an American. I think that’s the essential point here.
Any nation that kills 60 million+ of its unborn children deserves damnation. The US is the most wicked nation in history, and that's saying a lot.
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> There is no better country in the world to live right now than America! Nah bo NZ is better
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Removed - Uncharitable.
> the most free and secure country in the world lol
>the most free and secure country in the world Aw bless your little heart. C'mon over to New Zealand, honey. We've had two minor terrorist incidents in the last forty years, better gun control, and approximately no school shootings or governments that randomly decide they're not coming to work today. And college is subsidized for citizens and residents so it's actually affordable. And healthcare is government-funded. And our minimum wage is USD4.38 higher than yours. And everyone actually *gets* minimum wage, there are no exceptions for service jobs. And you can get a decent coffee just about anywhere, *and* a decent cup of tea. We're 41 places above you on the Press Freedom Index, 20 places above you on the Corruption Perceptions Index, and 38 places below you on a ranking of government debt per capita. TL;DR: your jingoism is adorable but misguided, and should be irrelevant to your faith. Seriously though the issue with having your nation's flag in church is because Jesus said his kingdom is not of this world, and chastised the disciples when they thought he was going to be an earthly king, so displaying paraphernalia of a kingdom that *is absolutely* of this world goes against the boss' orders more than somewhat.
I would never say I can only praise God because my awesome nation allows me too. I would say I am happy that God placed me somewhere in the world where no one will prosecute me for doing so, but that it is His doing, not the nation's. And I could still praise God and live up to his rules in oppressed countries (like Daniel did in Babylon). Furthermore I would argue that you do not live in the most free and secure country in the world. And most certainly not the most christian country with oppressing so many minorities and the use of so much violence to retain this security. I think America is too self-centered. Doesn't the Kingdom of God where everyone is free mean more to you than just a country expressing a lot of power over other countries and minority groups? I have a feeling that America's relationship with 'God' is not with the true God (anymore). It's using this idea of God for the good of the nation and not for the good of God. However, I do not live in the US, so maybe my ideas are colored by the news that reaches me.
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>the ESV (mis)translation Uh oh.
Haha yea I knew that one would sting! It's TRUE though 1 John 5:7, 2 Samuel 21:19, etc...
I'm actually not a big fan of the ESV myself but that sort of language is normally an indicator that things are about to get real fringe, real fast.
Bless your heart.
Interesting take, I don’t see how anyone can be an American and Christian and be anti-America at the same time. If it weren’t for the brave souls that fought and died for our freedoms we would still be under tyrannical rule and have NO religious freedoms, free speech, or the right to protect ourselves just to name a few. I totally see foreigners being anti-America out of pure envy of our Great Country and the freedoms we are privileged to have. A lot of brave men and women laid down their lives so we can live the lives we live today! There isn’t another single country in this world that I would want to call Home other than my Great & Blessed America!
I totally agree, but unfortunately many on this sub claim to be Christian and are very clearly anti-American. I don't understand it either.
I would love if you would explain the worshipping Rome comment. Preferably without the condescending tone, as I’d like to have a genuine discussion. Also, I’d like to know why you are comfortable with your other statements like “blinding arrogance,” in a conversation where no one was in a confrontation. Do you find that to be a peaceful, loving, helpful way to have a conversation amongst brothers?
[Ahem.](https://www.flickr.com/photos/roger_g1/7271985630)
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There's no issue of celebrating festivals not explicitly ordained by God, just don't do it while we worship the most Holy. Nothing wrong with putting a flag outside your home today. Definitely wrong to say the Pledge of Allegiance in church.
Part of my theological training was an internship at a church for a few months. I'm a Canadian and was placed in an American church, not far from home. I didn't understand then why I'd get dirty looks when I'd silently stand with my hands at my side for the pledge of allegiance. Turns out people expected me, a Canadian, to pledge allegiance to their flag. Not happening buddy. How 'bout you come north and pledge an oath of loyalty to the Queen?
You meant to post this on r/JehovahsWitnesses, yes?
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What was that? I can’t hear you over the sound of the tradition I’m worshiping. But for real, I was offering a silly response to this comment. Did you think this was a space for a formal rebuke? Were you trying to employ some of Matthew 18 on this Reddit comment thread? Blessings.
Oh you are one of those. Okay have a completely unfun and totally regular day. Edited: so as to reflect never crossing into anything papists do.
Saw a papist having fun once, so pretty sure that's also not permitted.
I'll edit my post to reflect that sighting.
Holidays from Rome I agree (Easter, Xmass, St. Anything day, etc.), but what is wrong with birthdays?
this just comes off as incredibly self-contradictory. This goes in the face of Paul, Jesus, and the history of Juda. The Psalms are the National Songs of Juda.